Death Note

[Saph]

So I've been seeing this anime recommended for a while, and finally got around to watching it. My reaction after 7 episodes:

How the hell can anyone stand to watch this?

(Spoilers below, obviously.)

The main character, Light, is probably the most psychopathically evil central character I can think of in any show or story I've ever seen. To begin with it's maybe possible to have a tiny bit of sympathy for him, as he only uses the Death Note to kill serious criminals, but as soon as innocent people start to get in his way he gets to work slaughtering them without a second thought. The utter lack of any kind of conscience would be bad enough, but he actually seems to take pleasure in the killing as well.

The episode that finally pushed me past my revulsion limit was the seventh one, where Light's trying to kill the fiancee of the FBI agent he murdered a couple of episodes ago. She's a good, sympathetic character, but Light's sole interest is figuring out how to murder her too, and the episode is basically a view through the eyes of a serial killer - you watch as he gets closer and closer and finally manages to kill her off, then gloats over it in the closing seconds of the episode as she staggers off to die.

I mean, it's one thing to have a sociopathic killer as a villain, but this guy's supposed to be the main character, who you're (I'm guessing) supposed to sympathise with. In the end I just skipped ahead to the ending, because I couldn't stand to watch another 30 episodes of Light slaughtering everyone who got in his way.

So why on earth do so many people recommend this? Are there really that many people out there who root for the serial killer instead than the victim? Or are all the deaths just treated as scorekeeping in a game? Either way, the fact that this anime's so popular has left me seriously creeped out.

- Saph

[SurlySeraph]

Well, watching Light's good intentions rapidly become warped and realizing that he still believes that he's a great man even as he murders innocents is both interesting and a good cautionary tale. Main characters don't have to be sympathetic. It's like a classical story with the positions reversed - you mostly see from the villain's perspective instead of the hero's perspective.

Also, there are many works with anti-hero protagonists who are far worse than Light. Alucard from Hellsing leaps to mind.

[Saph]

Well, watching Light's good intentions rapidly become warped and realizing that he still believes that he's a great man even as he murders innocents is both interesting and a good cautionary tale. Main characters don't have to be sympathetic. It's like a classical story with the positions reversed - you mostly see from the villain's perspective instead of the hero's perspective.

But doesn't it start to bother you after a while? If it was just Light brutally killing one innocent person, I'd have kept watching. It's when he keeps doing it again and again and again, with no sign that it's ever going to stop, that I start wondering: "What kind of person enjoys looking at this?" It's like watching a long series of serial killer movies where the serial killer always kills the investigators.

- Saph

[Kojiro Kakita]

Ah, its rare to find a person with good taste in anime these days.

Saph, the one component you have to remember when watching Death Note is that it is a shounen show, meant for kids between the ages of 10-18, so if you are looking for deep insight in the human mind look else where.

If you want a good mystery/ drama watch Spiral, much better in my opinion.

[evisiron]

I have only seen the live action version (Which rocked so hard - one of my favourite films), and apparently in that it was a more gradual decent into madness.

But it is interesting to see where people draw the line, or the power of self rationalisation. Is it ok to kill criminals? What about in self defense? To save others? What if it only to prevent the consquences of the previous situations?

I am sure most people have heard the phrase "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.? I feel it is well demonstrated here.

[EvilElitest]

Light may be the main character, but his point is that he is a honorable sociapath. The fact that he is also a brillant intellegent, genuis with an advanced manner of thinking is what makes the series interesting. Instead of a good protagonist, it is instead an evil bastard of a protagonist with a good angatonist. That is the morality that makes the series interesting
from,
EE
Edit
Oh and about his killing of all those people, bear in mind, people, including his own father are trying to stop him. He is an awful person. the real heros of the stories are those who still fight him. I mean he is dangerous and truly phycotic, but he is being fought against. The auther, unlike the author of hellsing, doesn't glorify his actions, to the country, he shows that light is in the ends, quite evil. And for the person with the age comment, i am not a bit anime person, but as a yong person, i have to say that is a remarkable simple way of putting it. Death note may be morbid as hell, but it is a intellgent anime, unlike an anime like say, Hellsing (action), or One Piece, of naruto.

[Saph]

But it is interesting to see where people draw the line, or the power of self rationalisation. Is it ok to kill criminals? What about in self defense? To save others? What if it only to prevent the consquences of the previous situations?

The thing is, though, in the anime, Light jumps off the slippery slope almost instantly. By the end of episode one he's calling himself a god, by episode three he's killing everyone who gets in his way. It's not really a question of 'drawing the line' because he hits rock bottom so fast you hardly see him move.

- Saph

[Kojiro Kakita]

Light may be the main character, but his point is

Edit
O And for the person with the age comment, i am not a bit anime person, but as a yong person, i have to say that is a remarkable simple way of putting it.

I am just quoting the truth, Death note is published in the same manga book as Naruto, One piece, etc. Its plot is fairly straightforward, power corrupts, and if you continue to follow this path you will die alone and afraid. Furthermore, it has the famous shounen theme, there is always a bigger fish in the pond.

[SurlySeraph]

But doesn't it start to bother you after a while?

Er... a little, I guess. I'm not that sensitive to violence. Too many video games, probably. I didn't really mind, because I was sure Light would be punished for his actions in the end.

[Xuincherguixe]

Well I liked it a lot, which says something right there :P (Though really only if you knew me so it probably doesn't)

I think that Light is supposed to be a character that the target audience identify with, quite possibly in a very unsettling way. And I think you're supposed to be bothered by his actions.

I thought of the series in this way. It's like a detective story, only it's told in the eyes of killer rather than the detective. You are given an insight into the mind of a serial killer and why he does what he does. The murder weapon in this case just happens to be supernatural. The story would still work even if you took away the spiritual elements. Though, they are fairly important.

Later on, it takes more of a focus on the group trying to catch him, and he trying to evade.

It's full of social commentary. And the best animation of potato chip eating ever.

This is the kind of show I wish there was when I was growing up. Way back in the 90s we didn't have anything that dark. And these days? It's really just a lot of people dying without reason. There isn't even the reason of them "dying without reason". Which is even more disturbing than a story about a guy who kills people with a magic book. At least Death Note lets you know murder isn't supposed to be a good thing.

[xanaphia]

I know nothing about the topic, but Light seems like a good name for a mass murderer.

[Kojiro Kakita]

@Xuincherguixe (chinese deshou)

Once again, I bring up the fact that writing from the point of view of the killer is nothing new in manga. Hell, one of the greatest mangas ever written was written from the pov of an assassin. Praise to whoever guess what manga I am thinking of.

Furthermore, care to explain your first statement in more detail.

[Micate]

SPOILER ALERT (as if this thread isn't full of spoilers already?)

Personally, I loved Death Note (just watched it rather recently actually), but only until L died. In my mind, Light was the anti-hero who I wanted to see lose, and L was the real hero who I desperately wanted to see win, and I was PISSED when he died, and so cheesily too. I mean, why did Rem not kill Light then also? He had so poorly planned that situation it was painful to watch it go in his favor.

But yes, Light is a sociopath, and I think he knows it... choosing hell in the afterlife over hell on earth, believing that any world where criminals run free must be hell.

[Kojiro Kakita]

I know nothing about the topic, but Light seems like a good name for a mass murderer.

You forget the meaning of his code name though, KIRA.
Now if that was written in katakana, one could say that it translates into either Kira or killer.

Have to go find a raw scan to how it is written. If it is Kiraa, than it would be killer if not then.....

[averagejoe]

I enjoyed this series, personally. Not to the degree where I would really go around reccomending it to everyone, especially since I didn't care for a lot of the later episodes. The reason it appealed to me is that Light essentially orchistrates his own downfall because of his sociopathic nature. There is, really, no concievable way that anyone should be able to solve this mystery, no concievable way that anyone should ever come to the conclusion that Light is Kira, but Light has very strong pride, as well as an intellectual arrogance, that cause him to nearly get caught again and again. Really, the whole story is about Light's hubris, and how his defeat is, in the end, inevitable.

I can understand, however, that this sort of thing isn't everyone's cuppa tea. It really doesn't go particularly deep; if they wanted to do that, they wouldn't have streched it over so many episodes.

[turkishproverb]

I am just quoting the truth, Death note is published in the same manga book as Naruto, One piece, etc. Its plot is fairly straightforward, power corrupts, and if you continue to follow this path you will die alone and afraid. Furthermore, it has the famous shounen theme, there is always a bigger fish in the pond.


AH, not to take a shot at you, but that's really not the best example.

First of All, it's pretty well aknowledgedin japan that within the same publication, the target audience can vary wildly. DN is pretty well targeted to the upper demographic in japan, (or was, it finished) at least for the particular magazine it was published in.

However, besides this, there is the fact that your summary of themes is almost humerous. Every story can be summed up in such simple terms if you try hard enough. Heck, you basically described the themes of Faust, one of the pivitol pieces of european literature.

Which, according to you, was aimed at 10-18 year olds.

[Kojiro Kakita]

AH, not to take a shot at you, but that's really not the best example.

First of All, it's pretty well aknowledgedin japan that within the same publication, the target audience can vary wildly. DN is pretty well targeted to the upper demographic in japan, (or was, it finished) at least for the particular magazine it was published in.

However, besides this, there is the fact that your summary of themes is almost humerous. Every story can be summed up in such simple terms if you try hard enough. Heck, you basically described the themes of Faust, one of the pivitol pieces of european literature.

Which, according to you, was aimed at 10-18 year olds.

I am going to say once again, the official classification for death note is shounen (10-18 range). If it was for the upper demographic (16 +) it would classified as Seinen. Furthermore, if you wanted to attack my argument from this point, it would have been better to point out at what time Death Note aired in Japan.

AS to the latter part of your comments, I will agree with what you said. It is true that you can simplify most stories down to simple terms, however it is the good stories that this becomes nearly impossible to do so.

Furthermore, unlike other good anime dramas (Kannon 2007 is one, actually most things made by Key) that I can name, it does not create the feeling of emptiness which good drama is supposed to do so.

[Behold_the_Void]

Something to remember when watching Death Note: Yagami Light is the antagonist. He is the one actively killin' dudes in order to create his new world order, slipping deeper and deeper into insanity as he does so.

The reason to watch is the elaborate cat-and-mouse between Light and L, as each works with increasing desperation to catch the other. Light is most definitely the villain in the series.

Oh, and someone mentioned Spiral, which is indeed good. Don't watch it though, read the manga. The anime has the entire plot gutted in favor of... I dunno, pretty people?

[Kojiro Kakita]

Oh, and someone mentioned Spiral, which is indeed good. Don't watch it though, read the manga. The anime has the entire plot gutted in favor of... I dunno, pretty people?

I was the one who mentioned Spiral. Since I have never watched the anime, I will have to agree with you.

I will admit one good thing came from the Death Note anime, (this is a pet peeve, but whenever I see DN I think DN angel) light's red eyes, which were parodied in Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei.

[Mantid]

Also, there are many works with anti-hero protagonists who are far worse than Light. Alucard from Hellsing leaps to mind.

At no time was Light ever a hero of any kind. Ever.

Anyhow, the amazing part of the show is really the chess like battle between Light and L. The simple fact is, the story couldn't be told from L's perspective because of the lack of knowledge of the Deathnote itself. You simply couldn't get the full score of the move by move strategies of both Light and L if you didn't know the rules that Light played by.

And yeah, Deathnote was published in a shonen magazine. But really, if it wasn't for the furigana in the original manga text, it could almost past for a seinen title... almost.

Anyhow, not every anime is for everyone's tastes. I think its an incredible story, and I don't let the fact that its told from the villains perspective bother me. Some stories are just more interesting from the villain's perspective.

[Xuincherguixe]

@Xuincherguixe (chinese deshou)
The story behind Xuincherguixe is that I like nonsensical names. So I hit the keyboard in a slightly random fashion and then add some vowels so it could in theory be pronounced. How exactly one does pronounce Xuincherguixe isn't entirely clear. Yes you heard that right, I don't know how to pronounce my own alias.

(Also, what IS Chinese Deshou?)

Furthermore, care to explain your first statement in more detail.
I assume you mean my second, as

Well I liked it a lot, which says something right there :P (Though really only if you knew me so it probably doesn't)
isn't really saying much. But in case you did? I'm pretty dark, disturbing and twisted. In otherwords exactly the sort of person who should be writing these kind of stories.


I kind of get the (somewhat egotisical) feeling that a lot of the Otaku over in Japan may well have a lot in common with me, or at least when I was that age. Oh man was I angry. I kind of miss having that kind of intense feeling. I often wonder how different the range of experiences people have really is.

But with that in mind. The way Light acted he was like I suspect a lot of people imagine they are, or wished they could be. Smart, Cool, great in sports... pretty much he's a Mary Sue. The odd thing out here being that I don't think people really want to kill. But then, as a lot of the audience may be bored and pissed off at the state of the world they might easily see where things are going and start asking things like, "Would I also start killing people off if I had a Death Note?"

I definitely could see people identifying with Light here in the west. I was hardly the only angry smart kid when I was growing up.

Does that help? I hope it does because I'm not sure how to explain more :P


On the other hand, it may just be that they looked at what sort of person is the most likely to be a serial killer, and things just happened to coincide.

[turkishproverb]

I am going to say once again, the official classification for death note is shounen (10-18 range). If it was for the upper demographic (16 +) it would classified as Seinen. Furthermore, if you wanted to attack my argument from this point, it would have been better to point out at what time Death Note aired in Japan.

AS to the latter part of your comments, I will agree with what you said. It is true that you can simplify most stories down to simple terms, however it is the good stories that this becomes nearly impossible to do so.

Furthermore, unlike other good anime dramas (Kannon 2007 is one, actually most things made by Key) that I can name, it does not create the feeling of emptiness which good drama is supposed to do so.

Erm...wasn't attacking you. Just pinting out flaws in your argument. And I'm not going to touch the American oversimplification of the devision between Shounen and Seinen, etc. Not really worth the effort, as I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I wasn't even arguing it wasn't targeted there, just pointing out flaws in your argument.

And your second part. While I'm glad you see what I meant, it felt like a backhanded agreement with the "it is the good stories that this becomes nearly impossible to do so." Am I to incur you think Faust, my origional example, was not a good work? Frankly, you can make such simplifications for almost any work, even if they are oversimplifications. Gaiman once summed up sandman in one sentace: "The lord of dreams learns that one must change or die, and makes his choice."

As to the next part, I think one problem is the definitions of genres. Death note comes closer to Supernatural Thriller than it does to a Drama. However, I will agree that judged as many good dramas (Key's works and GUndam Zeta come to mind...now THERE is a depresisng end...), the work has it's weaknesses (many many of them, no less). SImilarly, one could argue for the work being a Mackbeth-like black humor piece than strait drama.

[Xefas]

I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents and say that the Death Note manga is my favourite manga, and that the Death Note anime is my favourite anime. I watched the episodes as they were fansubbed over to the states every week, and no other anime I've ever watched has had the same quality, in my opinion.

However, I'm not really good at debating this kind of thing, so I just ask that someone please bring this up on the Geeknights forum (http://www.frontrowcrew.com/forum/), because it'll probably be hilarious to read afterward.

[DomaDoma]

Yeah, Light lost any sane person's respect by episode seven, if not five. So side with L. Duh. :smalltongue:

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yeah, Light lost any sane person's respect by episode seven, if not five. So side with L. Duh. :smalltongue:

>.> It's hard to root for L when I see that creepy L avatar of yours Doma...As for actually watching Death Note...well I watch it for much the reason I watch Dexter. Sure the protaganist (In that the story centers on him) is a serial killer, but it's interesting seeing how their minds work, how they react under the pressure of investigation, and most importantly (to me anyway) the clever little ideas they keep coming up with to avoid being caught.

In Death Note you can very much say I side with them both...if that makes any sense.

[Lord of the Helms]

So why on earth do so many people recommend this? Are there really that many people out there who root for the serial killer instead than the victim?
- Saph

You're really not supposed to root for Light at all. He's, as others pointed out, a sociopathic Marty Stu mass murderer who doesn't really seem to care much, if at all, for anyone close to him, doesn't develop anything that could be considered a genuine relationship and has no problems with sending his family or women who love him into harm's way or death. So root for L the brilliant oddball detective :smallsmile:

Incidentally, what annoyed me about the later part of the series is that even though Light was everything my above description of him states, Near is such an insufferable brat that I actually rooted for Light against him. Yes, really :smallannoyed:

[EvilElitest]

I kind of get the (somewhat egotisical) feeling that a lot of the Otaku over in Japan may well have a lot in common with me, or at least when I was that age. Oh man was I angry. I kind of miss having that kind of intense feeling. I often wonder how different the range of experiences people have really is.

I'm still a teen, so I'll explain why i liked the series



But with that in mind. The way Light acted he was like I suspect a lot of people imagine they are, or wished they could be. Smart, Cool, great in sports... pretty much he's a Mary Sue. The odd thing out here being that I don't think people really want to kill. But then, as a lot of the audience may be bored and pissed off at the state of the world they might easily see where things are going and start asking things like, "Would I also start killing people off if I had a Death Note?"

I definitely could see people identifying with Light here in the west. I was hardly the only angry smart kid when I was growing up.
I can understand that. This is rather arrogent but I have a quick temper, i am of above normal intelligence for my age group, i'm known for being bookish, and i am very intelligent in bearing (i act mature more often than not). I am also a egomaniac, arrogent, Honest to a fault (not like light) and i admit to being extremely callus at times.
Now i go to a public high school, and i can really understand the feeling of hte intelligent being the elite. I watch Law and Order (early seasons) and so i don't think i would use a Death Note, but i can understand that feeling.

Now i am watching the show, and all i really know about it is that it is a detective story with some ghosts involved, and it is suppose to be good. So i'm watching, I see hte Ryuk guy and i'm like "hey he is cool" and i somewhat interested in what is going to happen. now i met Light. After a little while, it is made clear that he is ment to be the perfect student. At first i'm disinterested, then i realize "Hey, i would love to be as respected as he is, i have a lot the same traits" then i catch myself, my critical alarms go off and i' m like "wait a second, mary sue, just one aimed for people my me, young smart people (bear in mind, i am no were near as smart as light is shown, because light is a made up character. I am not a progidy, i think, how does one test that sort of thing?) but i sympathize with smart cynical characters. I am now very wary of anything Light does, so i see him pick up the book,
Me- Interesting, plot is moving, what is going one now
He goes home, thinks about it, is shown to be rather cynical
Me (who is very cynical by nature)- ether he is being cynical or angsty, depends if he is a Mary sue. well, will he use the book. Oh come on, he is the main character, of course he will use it once, then regret it, and some body else will find it instead who he will have to fight
Light uses it, shocked, sees the need to test it
Me- Well, he seems rather cold about this, but hey, i would be interested to. What matters is what he does with hte book after this. While the demon dude try to steal it from him?
He kill some dude and is shocked
Me- well the plot is coming up
Flash ahead, i see light doing the evil laugh in the book, Ryuk shows up
Me-????? WTF. Light is the good guy, is he being corrupted, their has to be a logical explanation to this
Flash back, shows light's ambition, to kill all criminals and become a god
Me (shocked)-Oh my god, the protagonist is a villian. He isn't a mary sue, he is an evil bastard. Sweet, moral problems, breaks the genre.
from,
EE

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you want a good mystery/ drama watch Spiral, much better in my opinion.

But Death Note is a mystery with an ending, while Spiral is a mystery you have to get the Manga to find out what happens. Or just check Wikipedia like I did.


Once again, I bring up the fact that writing from the point of view of the killer is nothing new in manga.

Or in crime thrillers.


Hell, one of the greatest mangas ever written was written from the pov of an assassin. Praise to whoever guess what manga I am thinking of.

I'll just take a random guess and say Golgo 13, not that I've read it.


You forget the meaning of his code name though, KIRA.
Now if that was written in katakana, one could say that it translates into either Kira or killer.

Have to go find a raw scan to how it is written. If it is Kiraa, than it would be killer if not then.....

It's Engrish for killer.


Oh, and someone mentioned Spiral, which is indeed good. Don't watch it though, read the manga. The anime has the entire plot gutted in favor of... I dunno, pretty people?

The anime had Hio Hio theatre, which was one of the earliest and best total subversions of "what's on next" segments.


At no time was Light ever a hero of any kind. Ever.

Except when he lost his memory and was helping L fighting some other Kira, but that's generally thought of as a weak arc. Which shows that people prefer strong and evil Light to nice and sappy Light.

[Piedmon_Sama]

But doesn't it start to bother you after a while? If it was just Light brutally killing one innocent person, I'd have kept watching. It's when he keeps doing it again and again and again, with no sign that it's ever going to stop, that I start wondering: "What kind of person enjoys looking at this?" It's like watching a long series of serial killer movies where the serial killer always kills the investigators.

- Saph

No, it doesn't bother me...? I almost feel like it doesn't really need to be said, but I'll say it anyway: it's fiction. Nobody is actually dying, or has died. You are not a Roman Patrician, presiding over a life-or-death struggle between two human beings. The closest thing I would consider comparing Death Note to is, in fact, a morality play. An intelligent (perhaps super-intelligent) young man who thinks he knows how the world ought to be run is given (virtually) ultimate power. How does he use it? The power corrupts him, and inevitably he turns his powerr on the innocent, etc. etc.

I'm watching it every week on TV and only up to that point, but I have no doubt Light will get his in the end. No more doubt than I seriously fear for Batman everytime I watch him fight the Joker. Light is the villain of the story as well as its protagonist, an interesting inversal of the usual plot form. I can deal with watching him murder innocent people because I know it's not real, it's a construction, and just as certainly it will resolve with the villain being defeated; though even if it didn't, it wouldn't bother me so much as dissapoint. (I realise I just opened myself up to have the story ruined for me, so before you do I ask please nobody give away the ending.)

To be frank, I get bored quickly with "good, clean fun" type of stories where nobody innocent ever gets harmed and the henchmen all wear robotized helmets so you don't feel bad when they die. I like my stories to reflect the reality I live in at some level; that means innocent people die, evil people can triumph, nobody is "just a faceless goon," sometimes love isn't just enough, etc. I don't think I'm an immoral or unethical person for preferring this sort of fiction, and I mind the suggestion I am.

[BlackStaticWolf]

>.> It's hard to root for L when I see that creepy L avatar of yours Doma...As for actually watching Death Note...well I watch it for much the reason I watch Dexter.

Dexter shows that you have good taste.


Sure the protaganist (In that the story centers on him) is a serial killer, but it's interesting seeing how their minds work, how they react under the pressure of investigation, and most importantly (to me anyway) the clever little ideas they keep coming up with to avoid being caught.

Dexter really does own Doakes...


In Death Note you can very much say I side with them both...if that makes any sense.

I echo that view. When you look at Light and L side by side... they're really not very different people. In fact, both of them frequently base predictions of the other's actions on that very feature.

[Rolaran]

First off, let me say that I've only seen about 6 or 7 episodes so far.

I have to say I like it the way I liked Shakespeare's Macbeth.

You're not supposed to root for the main character; you want to see him go down in the end; it's how he evades his captors for so long, until the noose finally closes, that makes it so fascinating.

I don't watch for the killing. I watch for the high-stakes mindgames between Light and L.

[EvilElitest]

Also, about routing for different characters, I personally like rout for the character i like better. In Full Metal Alchemist, i routed for Ed because i like him as a character, and wished Al to die (in the English version, which i otherwise like) because i didn't like him. In the Light vs. L confrontation, i route for L, because i liked him better, but i honstly did like Light a lot as a character (by the way, reason why he has such a nice name is that he is ment to be the ideal good guy, who is evil).

When L dies, i was very upset, but i will say that Light deserved his victory. However, when it was Light vs. Near, i wanted Light to take over the world, better than that hack off brat

from,
EE

[Teal Kuinshi]

Even though Light's a psychopath and I utterly disagree with his decisions (I'm against any sort of Capital Punishment), I still found myself rooting for him throughout the show. He's a character that you can despise, but still secretly hope to win.

[TheEmerged]

Boy, if you hate Light after 6 or 7 episodes, wait until some of the later stuff :smallcool:

Truth be told it's not Light's murderous tendencies that got to me. Hey, I figured out early in the second chapter (I read the manga except for Volume 10 over the course of 2 nights) that Light was the villain. So I expected people to drop like flies.

No, it's the way that creep *used* people that got to me.

Truth be told, the series started losing me during the Third Kira/Corporate Kira stage and lost me when L died. I mostly finished it out at that point just to complete the plot.

[TheLogman]

I enjoy it because it's a battle of the wits. Granted, Light accomplishes his goals in a terrible way, but through logic and thought, as well as discoveries of the abilities he has, you can see him constantly thinking, planning, projecting. You follow his thought patterns, and just when you think he might have made a mistake, than just maybe he slipped up, it turns out that he was one step ahead of everyone, even you. It's the thinking man's anime. I dunno, I liked it, if only because Light forces people to agree with him, twists them, to the point that though his amazing thought processes, he is the ultimate puppet master. And I enjoy people of his caliber and strength taking their own puppets, and doing battle, like a complicated game of Chess, or maybe Mafia. But Light has an edge, which becomes his weakness. That being said, I like it.

[Ravyn]

I was a fan (granted, purely followed the anime, since that was better for vocab practice) pretty much from the beginning, mainly because of the whole outthinking and counteroutthinking and all that.... though I do rather rue the lack of interesting female characters with decent lifespans (I'll give Misa credit for being able to plot, but the weak will and the lack of street smarts are a turnoff, and that obsessive, mindless devotion.... ew. Just ew). Kept following it after That Episode mainly because I found some of the side shinigami interesting.

Now, on a slightly different tangent.... Ep. 25. Silence. Turning point for pretty much everyone, it looked like. That I can agree with--I did lose quite as much interest in the plot after that.... but at the same time, I'd found myself wondering just how many symbolic little Easter eggs had been slipped into the other episodes (the term has never been so fitting as in that episode). After all--if the title wasn't a reference to Shuusaku Endo's novel, I'll eat my keyboard, and picking up on that left me actively watching for the other imagery. And I have my guesses about a similar significance to the emphasized childlike behavior of both L and Near....

Side note, to the Dexter fans posting comparisons:

If all you've done is watch the show, read the books. They're better, and they were there first.

Not to knock the TV series, but I've seen far too many people who didn't realize the novels existed, and Jeff Lindsay doesn't get near enough credit as it is. Rant over.

[DomaDoma]

Also, about routing for different characters, I personally like rout for the character i like better. In Full Metal Alchemist, i routed for Ed because i like him as a character, and wished Al to die (in the English version, which i otherwise like) because i didn't like him. In the Light vs. L confrontation, i route for L, because i liked him better, but i honstly did like Light a lot as a character (by the way, reason why he has such a nice name is that he is ment to be the ideal good guy, who is evil).

When L dies, i was very upset, but i will say that Light deserved his victory. However, when it was Light vs. Near, i wanted Light to take over the world, better than that hack off brat

from,
EE

For me, it was just the opposite:
I rooted for Near on account of his not being Light. (The little stained-glass-window motifs and such also helped.) But in terms of actually getting behind someone, I really had to sympathize with the regular Joes in the NPA.

[EvilElitest]

For me, it was just the opposite:
I rooted for Near on account of his not being Light. (The little stained-glass-window motifs and such also helped.) But in terms of actually getting behind someone, I really had to sympathize with the regular Joes in the NPA.


Here is the deal, after L died, Light became my favorite character (other than his dad and Ryuk) basiclly because L was gone. I liked Light because of his personality, but i was perfectlly ok with hte idea of him losing, but after he defeated my favorite character, i wanted who ever defeated Light to deserve it and be even more intellegent. Near isn't so, it is as if he read the script before hand and automaticlly does what would annoy light the most. It just isn't even realistic, like Mary Sue vs. normal guy you see. I wanted an interesting character to win, not a blank one

from,
EEE

[DomaDoma]

You didn't close your spoiler-tag correctly, EE, better get on that.

It's not so much that Near was lucky as that he needed support. Obviously, the writers are aware of this. But it was way better-executed in the manga, at least as far as I am (volume 10).

[averagejoe]

You didn't close your spoiler-tag correctly, EE, better get on that.

It's not so much that Near was lucky as that he needed support. Obviously, the writers are aware of this. But it was way better-executed in the manga, at least as far as I am (volume 10).

Near was pretty lucky. If wossname crazy fanatic guy had bothered to test one of the pages beforehand (which I totally would have done if I suspected they had been switched) it pretty much all would have gone to hell and not worked.

[DomaDoma]

Near was pretty lucky. If wossname crazy fanatic guy had bothered to test one of the pages beforehand (which I totally would have done if I suspected they had been switched) it pretty much all would have gone to hell and not worked.

That being the reason for the gambit with switching an individual page beforehand, and the setting of the date right after Mikami leaves work.

[EvilElitest]

That being the reason for the gambit with switching an individual page beforehand, and the setting of the date right after Mikami leaves work.


I just dislike near because of his lack of interesting personality, or any personality for that matter. He is a dead character. If i was to create a second character to defeat light, i'd make a bit more of a Holmes character or some other quicky detective, not a nasty bastard.

from,
EE

[TheLogman]

I just finished a rather large Death Note-related Homebrew in case anyone cares. However, be warned, it is not exactly the same as the Death Note that Light carries, as it was necessary for me to restrict the powers, and rephrase the the Death Notes into D&D terms. Also, I changed the name to the Death Book, as an inside joke with my friends.

Now, onto on-topic things!

I felt one of the best parts of the series was: When Light is involved in the investigation with L, and everyone suspects him, but because the investigators keep making these assumptions and never know the true extent of the Death Note's powers, Light is always ahead. It's almost funny, but at the same time suspenseful, as you both want Light to get caught, but you also want him to get out of it, if only to find out how he did it.

[DomaDoma]

I just dislike near because of his lack of interesting personality, or any personality for that matter. He is a dead character. If i was to create a second character to defeat light, i'd make a bit more of a Holmes character or some other quicky detective, not a nasty bastard.

from,
EE

Oh, I totally agree on that note.
When there's nothing about him that references L's legacy directly, I have no patience for the little twerp. It's just that I really want to see Light go down. Like I say, the second arc's most sympathetic characters are the rest of the NPA - but that's not at all derogatory, especially in Aizawa's case.

[doliest]

I actually didn't really care if Light or L died, mainly because I figured L died-we would get someone else after L who was trying to kill Light. If Light died-L would take up the death note, mainly because they seem exactly alike-just one of them found the death note, and the other didn't.


I was supporting Ryuk the whole way.
As for L's successor, I liked mello

[averagejoe]

That being the reason for the gambit with switching an individual page beforehand, and the setting of the date right after Mikami leaves work.

No, I get why, it just seems like making sure would have been a smart precaution, and not just in hindsight. It's the "No one could possibly have survived that," syndrome. Yes, no one could possibly have survived that. Check anyways. Light stated that he knew (or at least suspected to the point of being sure, I forget which,) that they were switching the pages in the note. If that's the case, then to not go through the simple precaution of checking a page's authenticity is an unforgivable lapse in judgement. Like going skydiving and not checking your straps right before the jump. Most of the time you'll probably be okay, but that one time you aren't, you're REALLY glad you checked.

[the mysterian]

I mean, it's one thing to have a sociopathic killer as a villain, but this guy's supposed to be the main character, who you're (I'm guessing) supposed to sympathise with. In the end I just skipped ahead to the ending, because I couldn't stand to watch another 30 episodes of Light slaughtering everyone who got in his way.

- Saph

well he is an anti hero, so why should the average person like him?

[chionophile]

well he is an anti hero, so why should the average person like him?

Light isn't an anti-hero, he's a villain. Anti-heroes aren't unlikable, they just do things in non-heroic fashion.

Episode 7 really got to me too. Light is such an a**hole

[EvilElitest]

Light isn't an anti-hero, he's a villain. Anti-heroes aren't unlikable, they just do things in non-heroic fashion.

Episode 7 really got to me too. Light is such an a**hole

He is more of a magnificant bastard
from,
EE

[averagejoe]

Light isn't an anti-hero, he's a villain. Anti-heroes aren't unlikable, they just do things in non-heroic fashion.

Episode 7 really got to me too. Light is such an a**hole

They do heroic things un-heroically. Villains do things in a non-heroic fashon too. The difference is that they do evil things. :smallwink:

People are confusing hero and protaganist. Light is the protaganist, and L is his antagonist. (mostly) He is not, however, the hero, anti or otherwise.

[F.H. Zebedee]

I'll throw my lot in with the rooting for L group. I know who's gonna win due to accidental spoiler reading (TVTropes! BAD!), but still, I want to see how the whole thing unfolds.

Light is SUCH a jerk. If he didn't gloat over Ray, or gloat about his fiancee, I'd be less hateful... But those two were excessive.

[turkishproverb]

They do heroic things un-heroically. Villains do things in a non-heroic fashon too. The difference is that they do evil things. :smallwink:

People are confusing hero and protaganist. Light is the protaganist, and L is his antagonist. (mostly) He is not, however, the hero, anti or otherwise.

Actually, one of the really fascinating things about the first part of the story, amled up until the death of L was that the narrative did a decent job of boardering on who was the antagonist and who was the protagonist. You were made to get into the mind of both characters (light and L) to a certain degree, and forced out to a certain degree.

This changed in the second arc:
After the death of L, when they replaced him with significantly less enjoyable and relatable/loveable characters, making light the clear porotagonist again (the only possible exception being his father.)

[averagejoe]

I disagree. L was a cool guy, but getting into his mind does not make him the protagonist. Using the wikipedia definition, "Protagonist is a term used to refer to the figure or figures in literature whose intentions are the primary focus of a story," and "In literature, the antagonist is that against which the main character or protagonist contends." L's intentions are the focus of the story to some degree, but his primary roll is to serve as an opponent for Light, who is the main character, because the story focuses around his ambitions, desires, and corruption.

[turkishproverb]

I disagree. L was a cool guy, but getting into his mind does not make him the protagonist. Using the wikipedia definition, "Protagonist is a term used to refer to the figure or figures in literature whose intentions are the primary focus of a story," and "In literature, the antagonist is that against which the main character or protagonist contends." L's intentions are the focus of the story to some degree, but his primary roll is to serve as an opponent for Light, who is the main character, because the story focuses around his ambitions, desires, and corruption.

I know the definitions of protaginist. That's part of the reason I said that. They spent as much time on L and his way of doing things as they did on Light by the time of his death, and only avoided the motivations and origins in the same form as one does with any historically ambigious character.

My point is that, during at least a good chunk of the story, L's actions and intentions are as much the focus as Lights, thus creating an interesting case where they were simultaniously dueling, in metafiction, for the protagonist position in the story, as they fought within the context over the Kira killings.

[chionophile]

They do heroic things un-heroically. Villains do things in a non-heroic fashon too. The difference is that they do evil things. :smallwink:

Well, yeah, that's what I meant. I was trying to make a distinction between villain and hero/anti-hero. Heroes and anti-heroes play the same basic role in a story, they just use different methods.

Also, Light is the protagonist for much of the story, but I think an argument could be made that the protagonist role shifts to L during the arc where Light forgets he is Kira and assists L.

[averagejoe]

I know the definitions of protaginist. That's part of the reason I said that. They spent as much time on L and his way of doing things as they did on Light by the time of his death, and only avoided the motivations and origins in the same form as one does with any historically ambigious character.

My point is that, during at least a good chunk of the story, L's actions and intentions are as much the focus as Lights, thus creating an interesting case where they were simultaniously dueling, in metafiction, for the protagonist position in the story, as they fought within the context over the Kira killings.

I never meant to imply that you didn't know, I only meant to provide some sort of agreed-upon point for the purpose of argument, for both our sakes. I also wanted it up there so my own word choice could match it somewhat closely, for clarity's sake if nothing else.

That's fair enough, I suppose. I was talking overall, but I suppose L gets upgraded to protagonist status, at least for a little while.

[turkishproverb]

I never meant to imply that you didn't know, I only meant to provide some sort of agreed-upon point for the purpose of argument, for both our sakes. I also wanted it up there so my own word choice could match it somewhat closely, for clarity's sake if nothing else.

That's fair enough, I suppose. I was talking overall, but I suppose L gets upgraded to protagonist status, at least for a little while.

Ah. Ok. Can't blame you for defining. Just the timing made me think you thought I didn't understand.

Glad you understand my point of view, at least somewhat. Don't blame you for disagreeing though. Honestly, its a debateable issue because of the good points in construction, which was the point I was making.

[Zencao]

On the Near vs L vs Light thing...


L was a sociopath, a loner, etc
Light wasn't a loner, but he was a sociopath, he just acted like he wasn't, and in reality, he was much more of a sociopath, and downright insane. L starts off with no connections, and works well in the case, but as soon as he starts getting friendly with Light it all goes down hill, this to me was about how it was affecting his mind. L was able to pursue Kira ruthlessly, through morally ambiguous things (bugging, the torture was a big moment) but then comes the "Light is my first ever friend" thing, and he starts doubting, and he pays for that with his death.

Near however, stays the sociopath, he doesn't become attached at all. Because as he put it "L lost, as soon as he began doubting that Light was Kira... If you cannot win the game, you are just another loser" L lost because he became human, Near stays much more "one track"-ed, and logical. And that is how he kills Kira, he was just as smart (if not a little worse) than L, but he didn't become human, and therefore, was able to stay at his best mental potential.

This really jumped out at me in the scene before his death where L washes Lights feet, the religious symbolism there, as L submits to Light, and sees him as... Well it's hard to explain, but he realizes he was wrong about him, that he is not Kira (ironically the "god of the new world") but he is like him, a good guy, someone who can help him, and is at the same level, a savior if you will. The irony is that Light is also Judas, and kills him.

Near doesn't submit, he is an investigating machine, the PL part (Post-L) is more focused on Light, and him alone, rather than DL (During L) in which it was both L and Light in the spotlight, and I think that's one of the problems people had, they kept trying to see Near as the new L (in terms of character), he never was, nor meant to be.

[EvilElitest]

On the Near vs L vs Light thing...


L was a sociopath, a loner, etc
Light wasn't a loner, but he was a sociopath, he just acted like he wasn't, and in reality, he was much more of a sociopath, and downright insane. L starts off with no connections, and works well in the case, but as soon as he starts getting friendly with Light it all goes down hill, this to me was about how it was affecting his mind. L was able to pursue Kira ruthlessly, through morally ambiguous things (bugging, the torture was a big moment) but then comes the "Light is my first ever friend" thing, and he starts doubting, and he pays for that with his death.

Near however, stays the sociopath, he doesn't become attached at all. Because as he put it "L lost, as soon as he began doubting that Light was Kira... If you cannot win the game, you are just another loser" L lost because he became human, Near stays much more "one track"-ed, and logical. And that is how he kills Kira, he was just as smart (if not a little worse) than L, but he didn't become human, and therefore, was able to stay at his best mental potential.

This really jumped out at me in the scene before his death where L washes Lights feet, the religious symbolism there, as L submits to Light, and sees him as... Well it's hard to explain, but he realizes he was wrong about him, that he is not Kira (ironically the "god of the new world") but he is like him, a good guy, someone who can help him, and is at the same level, a savior if you will. The irony is that Light is also Judas, and kills him.

Near doesn't submit, he is an investigating machine, the PL part (Post-L) is more focused on Light, and him alone, rather than DL (During L) in which it was both L and Light in the spotlight, and I think that's one of the problems people had, they kept trying to see Near as the new L (in terms of character), he never was, nor meant to be.


That would be all right, if the written did a better job. However, instead of coming off as "emotionally cold Sherlock Holmes type person" he came off as "L knock off, who is also flat and uninteresting. " He isn't well written, and comes off as an annoying brat. In theory you could be right, but the author certainly didn't pull that off
from,
EE

[Dea_al_Mon]

I was reading the manga, but I couldn't keep going after my favorite character got needlessly pwned.

[Gungnir]

I've only seen a little bit (like 15 seconds of a random episode), but I would just like to say:

That was the most suspenseful potato chip I've ever seen.

[EvilElitest]

I've only seen a little bit (like 15 seconds of a random episode), but I would just like to say:

That was the most suspenseful potato chip I've ever seen.

That show has a great skill in making the normal seem exciting, like potato chips and writing in a book

from,
EE

[Dragoon]

Just wondering if anyone here actually seen the two movies by chance and if so, what did they think of it?

I started routing for L as soon as Light killed the the prisoner pretending to be L. That and most of the story was ruined for me by people linking to TVtropes, though I'll probably finish it just to see how the cat and mouse game goes.

And yes, I know, I didn't have to follow the links, but they were funny! :smallbiggrin:

[Shades of Gray]

oh... wow.

I read the thread name and thought someone was posting their will!:smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

oh... wow.

I read the thread name and thought someone was posting their will!:smallbiggrin:

wow, that would have been scary
from,
EE

[BlackStaticWolf]

That show has a great skill in making the normal seem exciting, like potato chips and writing in a book

from,
EE

Especially Mikami. He takes dramatic writing beyond anything Light could dream of.

[EvilElitest]

Especially Mikami. He takes dramatic writing beyond anything Light could dream of.

to him, writing in a slow, dramatic, over the top manner is an art form
it is almost a relgious experience for him
from,
EE

[BlackStaticWolf]

to him, writing in a slow, dramatic, over the top manner is an art form
it is almost a relgious experience for him
from,
EE

And we musn't forget his catch phrase. He truly is the master of impressive writing.

I can only dream of the day when I too am able to put my entire body behind every stroke of the pen.

[EvilElitest]

And we musn't forget his catch phrase. He truly is the master of impressive writing.

I can only dream of the day when I too am able to put my entire body behind every stroke of the pen.

make sure to hire a gothic choir to sing in the background as you do it, for dramitic effect
from,
EE

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I liked the first movie, personally, but not the second, and neither as well as the anime. The first suffered only the flaw of its relative brevity and thus lack of comparative depth. The second was simply not very good, in my opinion.

[turkishproverb]

I liked the first movie, personally, but not the second, and neither as well as the anime. The first suffered only the flaw of its relative brevity and thus lack of comparative depth. The second was simply not very good, in my opinion.

still had a better ending than the TV show, simply cause it removed the Near arc.

[BlackStaticWolf]

still had a better ending than the TV show, simply cause it removed the Near arc.

I hear that. With the exception of Mikami (whose writing-fu justifies his entire existence), the Near arc was terrible.

[DomaDoma]

It was freaking awesome, but the awesome bits don't involve Near much further than the things he said to the NPA. As far as Near himself goes, I mean, when there aren't bells in the background or somesuch. Now, the NPA's reaction to Near's seeds of discord? Pure win. Same goes for Matsuda's crises of confidence. Actually, a good number of the awesome bits involve Mello, which is odd, as I like him less than I like Near. But then again, why would I be watching this series if, much as I hate him, Light didn't impress me just a little?