deleted

[wefoij123]

Don't need this answered anymore so deleted.

[JNAProductions]

An ECL 14 PC should have 50/50 odds of soloing an EL 14 encounter, according to WotC.

In other words, according to the books, taking on a CR 17 monster should be a pretty damn rough time.

This forum is generally of a much higher optimization level than what WotC intended, though.

[Saintheart]

The marilith has no really strong ranged attack options and relies on its teleport ability to close. Kiting it to death is probably the most viable option.

- Magic Circle Against Evil stops its summoned creatures from attacking, sort of.
- Dimensional Anchor stops it teleporting and therefore stops it closing to melee.
- Bless Weapon cast on a cold iron weapon gets over its Damage Resistance.
- True Seeing kills its Project Image capability, so we can always find it.
- Its Unholy Aura only does STR damage on melee attacks, so ranged weapons work just fine.


Not doing the math right here, but I think I could bring in a budget of permanent runes for 150,000gp or less which would give a martial archer character capacity to have all of those up throughout the encounter. The marilith doesn't have Dispel Magic, so I don't have to worry about it taking any of my spells or magic items down. And if it does try a Grapple on, Freedom of Movement.

A higher risk option would be to have a very mobile character - Barbarian + Sandals of Sprinting + Swiftblade + similar etc. and six ioun stones scribed with pass trigger runes of Fell Drained Magic Missile. Only costs about 12,000 gp to set that up. If the marilith gets within 30 feet range, it gets hit with 6 missiles to which none of its DR or resistances apply, albeit Spell Resistance is a problem. Ready actions to break contact, wait for the marilith to close again, same result. It doesn't have fast healing or regeneration, so it either leaves in disgust or keeps beating itself up with magic missiles until it dies or I die of boredom.

[Anthrowhale]

The cleric with a Vorpal weapon using Sense Weakness and Surge of Fortune has a good option for killing it.

[redking]

What about a 14th level fighter suitability equipped with magic items and weaponry that is designed to harm or vex creatures from the lower planes?

[Saintheart]

What about a 14th level fighter suitability equipped with magic items and weaponry that is designed to harm or vex creatures from the lower planes?

It's got 216 hitpoints, so a mildly equipped charger could take it out in one pass, depending on what you define as "optimisation".

Fighter level 14 is BAB +14/+9/+4, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper. Barbarian Pounce 1.

Let's say STR starts at 18, assign 3 more to STR at ECL 4, 8, 12. STR is 21, total inherent bonus +5, say we've got at least Weapon Focus for a +1. Add a STR booster granting another +6 and our STR bonus is now at +8. Charge gets us +2 to the attack. So a rough total attack bonus before applying Power Attack of +27/+22/+17. A Marilith has AC 29, so our first strike doesn't miss unless we natural-1 it.

All Power Attack penalties are sheeted off to AC under Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge for a +14 to damage. Power Attack doubles it to +28 damage. Leap Attack raises it to +52 damage. Assuming greatsword, I make that 2d6+16 (2xSTR) +52 (Power Attack) = 2d6+68 on the first strike.

As for the weapon itself, just make it a Valorous weapon to double the damage on a charge, which makes it 4d6+136 damage on the first blow, with two more still coming and still pulling the same damage.

And my numbers are probably wrong or on the low side. Not much magic involved at all.

[Gruftzwerg]

And my numbers are probably wrong.

You forgot to use Rage (another +2 STR modifier; adds to +10 now).

Further, at lvl 14 a melee character should have access to flying somehow (items or by race). Together with a slashing/piercing weapon this adds another charge multiplier (together with valorous weapon now x3).

STR modifier: +10
Power Attack: +14 / 2h +28
Leap Attack: +28 / 2h +42

We'll use a "+5 valorous + collision" slashing or piercing weapon (e.g. a Greatsword) with a Diving Charge/Pounce while Raging:
= (2d6 + 10 [STR] + 42 [2h Leap Attack] + 10 [weapon]) x3
= 6d6 + 30 + 126 + 30
= 6d6 + 186

min. dmg: 192
average dmg: 207
max dmg: 222

There is a high chance to kill the Marilith within the first max BAB attack (if he can bypass the 10 DR, if not still a small chance left to kill it on the first strike). The second attack (+9 BAB + 11 STR + 5 weapon +2 charge = +27 to hit vs 29AC) has a 90% chance to hit and kill it for sure. The 3rd attack (+22 to hit vs 29AC) has a 65% chance to hit, if the 2nd should fail (due to the 10% chance to not hit).

Even with less optimization, the ubercharger should kill it on its first full pounce attack.

edit: corrected numbers for rage str modifier.. sorry it early and I twisted the numbers in my head^^

[sleepyphoenixx]

Making a specialized build for a specific enemy is high-op all on its own.

The Marilith also has 18 int and Greater Teleport, so playing it as a dumb bruiser who'll stand there as you kill it is sandbagging so hard the entire exercise becomes pointless.
In actual play it should make use of its intelligence, stealth and SLA's to try to get the drop on your party, not wait until you're fully buffed up and then run into your sword.

[icefractal]

Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East): None are more proficient with demon summoning than this master of the black art"
- FCI p.82

This quote is saying in no uncertain terms that WotC is saying 14th level characters binding Mariliths is not only expected but encouraged as well.
Which means, if a PC cannot take out an unbuffed unsupported Marilith all by themselves, then they need to up their game. Because that's the "game" part of the "social game".No objection to this challenge, it sounds interesting and maybe I'll take a whack at it tomorrow, but I disagree with this reasoning.

Nar Demonbinder isn't "an average 14th level character", they're the absolute best specialist ("none are more proficient") in binding demons. And binding doesn't mean you could beat them up - in a lot of fiction where people bind demons, those demons are substantially more powerful than the binder.

It's kind of a flavor-fail in how 3.x implements binding actually. There's all this talk about bargaining and sacrifices and ... you don't really need any of that, because normally by the point that you can bind something, you can also just smack it upside the head if it tries to play hardball.

"So, mortal, you seek power. Well great power I offer ... but at a cost! What ... who ... will you offer? If you make too stingy a sacrifice, you may find the results ... painful. Now -"
"Excuse me, Tiz'gonnoz the Vile, was it? I'm sorry to interrupt, but I need to clarify one thing. I don't doubt your potency - that's why I summoned you. But ...
I'm a ****ing 8th circle conjurer, Tiz'gonnoz! If you try to screw with me I'll burn you to dust, seal the dust in a gem, and throw it into the ****ing Far Realm. You know how many demons I had to kill to learn this spell?!
... ahem. Anyway, I have some Liquid Pain here, that should be a suitable payment, yes?"

Which yes, can be fun. But some support for the "foolish mage conjures up more than he can handle" trope would be nice too.

[Saintheart]

Making a specialized build for a specific enemy is high-op all on its own.

The Marilith also has 18 int and Greater Teleport, so playing it as a dumb bruiser who'll stand there as you kill it is sandbagging so hard the entire exercise becomes pointless.
In actual play it should make use of its intelligence, stealth and SLA's to try to get the drop on your party, not wait until you're fully buffed up and then run into your sword.

Sure, monsters should be played the way their stats suggest they should. It's just the brief was "gimme an unoptimised 14th level character that can solo a Marilith". Ubercharger probably isn't unoptimised, sure, but with all the time that's passed it's almost de rigeur for melee builds.


Anyway, continuing on with unoptimised stuff that can kill Mariliths, how about a 14th level Druid prestige classing into Spellwarp Sniper? (Confession, I love the idea of Druid -> Spellwarp, it's one of my little joys.)

I mean, sure, a 14th level druid likely counts as optimised given it's a druid, but let's hobble ourselves a bit. Let's not go with wild shaping or summoning, let's go with good old flat-out blasting.

Reach Spell and Maximise Spell. Now, what can we start with?

Call Avalanche. Druid 5, does 8d6 crushing damage which isn't touched by any of the Marilith's resistances, is not subject to Spell Resistance, and under Spellwarp Sniper has no Reflex save. Buries creatures of Large size or less ... oh, hey, the Marilith's a Large creature, isn't it?

Other fun stuff for Druid 9/Spellwarp Sniper 5, not filtered for Spell Resistance but still so much fun:

Sandblast (Druid 1): No save under spellwarp, automatic stun. Welcome to DEX-denied town, population you.
Frost Breath (Druid 2): 5d4 [cold] damage max, but I like that it’s a no-save automatic dazed effect when spellwarped.
Blinding Spittle (Druid 2): Can’t warp it, but it’s a ranged touch attack anyway and works at close range, so it can be teamed up with Mobile Spellcasting to splash-and-dash. Blinded is denied DEX bonus to AC, next round you’re wearing sneak attack damage on top of whatever else I feel like hitting you with.
Splinterbolt (Druid 2): Can’t warp it, but I can add sneak and skirmish. 4d6 base damage with an 18-20 critical hit range is a better damage dice and critical range than the best exotic melee weapon bases out there, and if I ab/use Acorn of Far Travel – which comes from the same article right down to using the same language of “forested terrain” – I add more damage and treat the projectile as a cold iron weapon.
Alicorn Lance (Druid 2): Can’t warp it, but it’s a ranged touch attack spell anyway, at close range that deals 3d6 force damage as a free action.
Wracking Touch (Druid 2): Once I Reach Spell this, I can add the sneak attack damage even if you’ve still got your DEX bonus to AC.
Icelance (Druid 3): 6d6 half cold, half piercing, I can’t warp it, but it gets a +4 to hit and if you fail your Fort save, Ms. Marilith, you’re stunned for 1d4 rounds ... huh, for someone with a massive CR like that you'd think they'd have shoehorned immunity to stun and critical hits. Guess not!
Thunderous Roar (Druid 3): Sure, take your half Fort save for maximum 5d6 damage, you’re still automatically knocked prone.
Flame Strike (Druid 4): Don’t care about your [fire] resistance, half of it is divine damage and you don’t get to save.
Blast of Sand (Druid 4): Really don’t care about your [fire] resistance because this is untyped damage.
Rusting Grasp (Druid 4): Just for the lols, let’s Reach Spell this and rust out Ms. Marilith's longswords.
Waterball (Druid 4): Sure it’s nonlethal, but you don’t get to half save against max 10d6, and maybe for the lols I’ll just walk up next to you while you’re unconscious and coup de grace you with a ray.
Flaywind Burst (Druid 5): 10d6 untyped damage, no save against this when spellwarped. Fort save or take the effects of an instantaneous Windstorm.

Sure, I have to futz around picking up sneak attack and Point Blank Shot, but give me Mobile Spellcasting and some land speed enhancers and I'm zapping the Marilith from 60 feet out and locking out its Reflex saves. Mobile Spellcasting combines a spellcasting and a move action, so I can ready it. The Marilith teleports on me, I move and blast it with no-Reflex save direct damage spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sure, monsters should be played the way their stats suggest they should. It's just the brief was "gimme an unoptimised 14th level character that can solo a Marilith". Ubercharger probably isn't unoptimised, sure, but with all the time that's passed it's almost de rigeur for melee builds.


You're still assuming the Marilith just stands there and takes it. It has a +19 hide mod for a reason. How high was your uberchargers spot check again?

It also has 18 int, as mentioned, so it's smart enough to know that warriors are generally weak against will saves.
It also has Telekinesis as a SLA. How about targeting your greatsword with that to tear it out of your hands before you even know you're under attack? Surprise!

Even if that fails, it's likely hiding behind cover so you couldn't charge it even if you knew where it was, giving it another free attack on you. Maybe another Telekinesis? Blade Barrier?
If you do manage to charge it it gets an AoO on you because it has 10ft reach while you have 5. Maybe it'll use its tail slap, leading into Improved Grab if it hits?
And even if that AoO misses and your charge connects, if you don't kill it with that you're now in full attack range. Good luck, you're going to need it.

As for your druid/spellwarp sniper sure, a druid likely has much higher spot, but you're still assuming you'll:
- not be surprised
- win initiative
- hit all your attacks
- get SA damage on all of them
- never get attacked back
- can kill the Marilith before it retreats

when any of those assumptions being wrong is likely to get you killed in one or two rounds.

[Zanos]

Going to take a step back here and challenge some of OP's assumptions.

First of all, responding to the thread title, a level 14 PC will not (or should not) be able to solo a Marilith in a "fair fight" with WotC optimization. A single ECL 14 character is EPL 10. A marilith is CR 17. Which puts the encounter at two levels above "overpowering":

Overpowering: The PCs should run. If they don’t, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is five or more levels higher than the party level.


When I run a "standard optimization" game, I expect players to be able to solo kill a Marilith at 14th level. This is my reasoning:
"Numerous prestige classes associated with demons and the Abyss have appeared in other D&D supplements. The following prestige classes should be of particular interest to any player character who is associated with demons in some way
...
Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East): None are more proficient with demon summoning than this master of the black art"
- FCI p.82

This quote is saying in no uncertain terms that WotC is saying 14th level characters binding Mariliths is not only expected but encouraged as well.
I'm not sure your reasoning here. Are you suggesting that, because Nar Demonbinder's are the most proficient at demon summoning, and you can finish the class at level 14, that a level 14 character should be able to solo a marilith, since that's the most powerful demon that Greater Planar Binding applies to in core?

First of all, I wouldn't put that much stock into flavor text. Prestige classes, especially the FR ones, have a lot of hot air in their descriptions. I've seen FR PRCs with no spellcasting progression described as legendary and feared mages because they get a few bonus spells known, nevermind that they're ECL 15 characters that can only cast 3rd level spells in a setting where level ~10 wizards are relatively common. A Nar Demonbinder isn't even the best demon binder in core. He will never cast 9ths and can't ever cast gate without some cheese. In supplemental material, Malconvoker does his job better, and Implore means he's not even the best at pure binding, since he can't cast it.

Second of all, binding is not a typical encounter. In an intelligent binding situation, you are protected from almost all ways the creature can harm you and from it escaping by using a reinforced magic circle supplemented with dimensional anchor, and are simply rolling charisma checks to press the creature into service for you. An encounter where you have complete control over the time and place of the encounter, and are using a spell that has a built in method for winning the encounter by rolling a check is not the same as a fight.



Which means, if a PC cannot take out an unbuffed unsupported Marilith all by themselves, then they need to up their game. Because that's the "game" part of the "social game".
So in your game with as little optimization as possible, you use an EPL 10 party fighting an CR 17 encounter as a balancing point, because a theoretical level 14 character could bind one? Frankly, that seems ridiculous to me. Do you know what else is CR 17? A human with 17 class levels. So you're also arguing that a level 14 x should be able to solo a level 17 x or he needs to up his game.



But talking to some fellow DMs, they seem to disagree citing that this creature is CR17 and that I'm actually running a high-op game. I counter by saying Age of Worms expects parties to take on multiple encounters well above their ECL so it's actually they who are running a low-op game.
So to win this argument, I want to come up with a list of unoptimized character builds that are completely capable of taking out a marilith on their own at 14th level. To show that it's this easy to solo a Marilith at 14th level and that there's no excuse for not being able to accomplish such a feat.
Any character that can solo an overpowering encounter is optimized by definition.



Example1:
Wizard with maximized spell and abrupt jaunt. No metamagic reducers. He just lobs 3 maximized orbs while dodging the Marilith's attacks with abrupt jaunt. Marilith soloed with no wealth.
Abrupt Jaunt isn't optimization? It's considered one of the cheesiest wizard builds. :smallconfused:
Anyway, the marilith uses its greater teleport, telekinesis, and blade barrier SLAs to kill the wizard.



Example2:
Psion or Wilder with Astral Construct. Regardless of whether using the comp psi nerf of 1 construct out at a time, the 9th level astral constructs are gonna butcher the marilith no contest all by themselves. Also without wealth.
What 9th level astral construct? You can't augment above your manifest level, and without some shenanigans your character isn't going to have a manifester level much higher than their caster level. Frankly, even with good menu ability selection, the damage of a single astral construct is not that impressive against the marilith's DR. It's also not going to serve as a particularly good wall when the marilith teleports around it or just drops a blade barrier on you.


"So, mortal, you seek power. Well great power I offer ... but at a cost! What ... who ... will you offer? If you make too stingy a sacrifice, you may find the results ... painful. Now -"
"Excuse me, Tiz'gonnoz the Vile, was it? I'm sorry to interrupt, but I need to clarify one thing. I don't doubt your potency - that's why I summoned you. But ...
I'm a ****ing 8th circle conjurer, Tiz'gonnoz! If you try to screw with me I'll burn you to dust, seal the dust in a gem, and throw it into the ****ing Far Realm. You know how many demons I had to kill to learn this spell?!
... ahem. Anyway, I have some Liquid Pain here, that should be a suitable payment, yes?"

Which yes, can be fun. But some support for the "foolish mage conjures up more than he can handle" trope would be nice too.
It's entirely possible to die horribly if you use planar binding unwisely.

[ciopo]

what constitutes player victory?

Anyway, some baseline.

Cleric/wizards/others with access to banishment : banishment or assay spell resistance+banishment, 1 turn "win" if the marilith fails the will save, needs some DC pumping to make this have more than a ~15-25% chance of working, but baseline that's the thereabouts (wisdom of 22, which is low-op for 14th level, makes the DC be 21 if using one hated item, marilith will save is +17), with more preparation and even staying core only this is greatly improved by simply using more spells, which is "level 0" of optimization to me since it's nothing more than "I'm increasing my primary spellcasting stat and preparing spells useful to the situation", no feat, little wealth.

Druid : "dumb fightning" wild shape dire bear + barkskin+ halo of sand + greater luminous armor + equipping gear after wild shaping = ~43 AC , Marilith only hits us on a 20, we hit the Marilith on a ~4+ . this is a bit more optimized but take away the "gear+wilding clasp" and that's still ~37AC just from knowing "spells exists and they're reasonable enough to prepare in a generic day". No feat so "low optimization", that's not even counting we also have the animal companion

Any class, money only : assuming an array that puts 10 on dex and 10 on wisdom., 146k gp puts our "AC" if we spend money on that could be 10+3dex+3wis+ 5 armor+ 3 deflection +3 natural = 27, kinda stupid to do but build agnostic, core only, gear only, doesn't take much to improve on it with whatever classes we take.

paladin/rangers can prepare greater luminous armor for themself, so that's an easy +7 to the above AC and they don't "need" to buy bracers of armor

pure martials it's down to finagling I guess, I haven't made a pure martial in a while I would have to see what I'd end up with in a coreish, but stupidly "any" martial is made much beefier with takign 1 level of wizard and going abjurant champion 5, "abjubrant champion" is D10 full BAB, that says martial to me

[Mechalich]

I have given 3 half built characters doing exactly as wotc intended with no rule lawyering, no unclear or abusable RAW, no wealth, and many feats to spare soloing a Marilith at 14th level, and two of them don't even have prestige classes. So i expect all fully built non-support characters to also be able to solo mariliths at 14th level especially with their 150,000gp worth of equipment at standard optimization.


This is really a Tier-based question. A 14th level Tier I or II character can easily 'solo' a Nar Demonbinder's Marilith, because they have an Astral Deva/Ghaele/Glabrezu/etc. bound/allied minion of their own to start with as well and can probably win simply by unloading a dozen buff spells on their minion and sending it in. Once you drop down to Tier III you have to start getting creative, and by Tier IV there is some serious optimization - like Uberchargers - involved. This is normal, lower tier classes have to optimize just to keep up with generic builds for higher tier classes. Planar Binding is possibly the most obvious benchmark available.


Druid : "dumb fightning" wild shape dire bear + barkskin+ halo of sand + greater luminous armor + equipping gear after wild shaping = ~43 AC , Marilith only hits us on a 20, we hit the Marilith on a ~4+ . this is a bit more optimized but take away the "gear+wilding clasp" and that's still ~37AC just from knowing "spells exists and they're reasonable enough to prepare in a generic day". No feat so "low optimization", that's not even counting we also have the animal companion

The Marilith can cast Blade Barrier at will. That's make a DC 23 Reflex save or take 15d6 damage every round. While the damage output of that method isn't exactly high, it does make it much harder to simply AC tank your way through the Marilith.

[Zanos]

Why use just one marilith? Nothing stops a demon binder from summoning 2. Or 4. Or 10. Actually, why use a marilith? All this stuff works on devils too, bind yourself a CR20(18hd) pit fiend. Planar binding is a problematic spell for most tables, and you want to use it as a baseline. A level 17 wizard can gate in a creature of an arbitrarily high CR. What's an appropriate challenge for a 17th level wizard?

Optimization isn't just about entire builds, it can also be about single options. Abrupt Jaunt is very powerful for a single feature; more powerful than any other Immediate Magic option by far. To the point that if you say "Immediate Magic" most people dont know what you're talking about, but most folks here immediatley recognize Arupt Jaunt. So yeah, I'd consider a build that combs through variant class features in supplementary books and identifies an option that is far and away better than the baseline to be pretty optimized. I don't use optimization as a naughty word, so I find it quite strange to call builds that specifically hunt for the most cost effective character options in a wide range of material pretty optimized. An orb slinging abrupt jaunt wizard is definitely an optimized character; at least at dealing damage and not getting hit. Hell, you can probably find some in CharOp threads. Although granted, they will probably also have incantatrix levels.

But I've already pointed out that isn't on its face sufficient to punch 7 above your intended CR; even granting that the summoner is a wilder, and the wizard is abrupt jaunting around, both would likely lose to a marilith that actually uses its abilities.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I expect the 14th level character to be able to take a few hits from a marilith. They have 150,000gp. There is no excuse of being one shotted by stock non-optimized monsters straight out of the MM with that kind of cash.

I think you are trying construct a strawman here by insinuating that I claim mariliths stand still in a fight and employ no strategy. Let me make it clear, I fully expect the Marilith to be as cunning and crafty as possible. They will teleport away to wait out limited short duration buffs and come back. And they will fight to the death because a retreat is a victory so might as well make it a little harder and have them fight to the death.

A Marilith does 10 attacks in a full attack, 7 of which at a +25 AB, for an average of 16 damage on MH and 11 on OH attacks. Followed by improved grab with a grapple mod of +29 and constrict if its tail slap hits.
An unoptimized level 14 wizard or psion has - assuming 18 con via buffs or items - 64hp (4 + 13 x 2.5 + 28). And 18 con is already pretty optimized.
A good AC is usually considered "level + 17" - which will cost you most of your WBL or a big chunk of your spell slots - leaving you at AC 31, meaning it'll hit 70% of the time (6 or higher) with most attacks.
Most casters have significantly less AC. It also has True Seeing so miss chance doesn't work.
It also has 10ft reach, so once it's standing in front of you even Abrupt Jaunt (max range 10ft) will not save you unless you kill it before its next turn, where it will take a 5ft step and turn you into chunky salsa.

If it full attacks you and hits with half its attacks or more you die, simple as that.
If you lack Freedom of Movement and it charges or performs an AoO with its tail slap you die too because 10ft reach means Abrupt Jaunt won't safe you.
Maybe you have some temp hp to increase that buffer, but unless you're a psion with Vigor it'll only shift the odds slightly.

And that's before you factor in its stealth and SLAs, high rolls and critical hits.



I have given 3 half built characters doing exactly as wotc intended with no rule lawyering, no unclear or abusable RAW, no wealth, and many feats to spare soloing a Marilith at 14th level, and two of them don't even have prestige classes. So i expect all fully built non-support characters to also be able to solo mariliths at 14th level especially with their 150,000gp worth of equipment at standard optimization.

Except neither of your proposed builds is capable of reliably soloing a Marilith unless you assume they start with all the advantages and everything goes in their favor.
And it won't be guaranteed even then.

Post some stat blocks for your builds and we'll play through an encounter if you want to see it for yourself.

[ciopo]

The Marilith can cast Blade Barrier at will. That's make a DC 23 Reflex save or take 15d6 damage every round. While the damage output of that method isn't exactly high, it does make it much harder to simply AC tank your way through the Marilith.
That's fair, unsupported I'm counting my reflex save to be around +13 at 14th level for a pure classed druid ( 4+ 3 dex +6 superior resistance ), so 55% to negate that damage if they cast it on our position. That's the bare minimum even just a conviction ups this to 75% "avoidance"

that's going to prevent the marilith from manouvering (other than teleporting, unless anchored, I mean) however, unless she wants to take her own blade barrier damage, and next level of counterplay is simply to fly to higher than 20ft from the ground. dumb beatsticking is dumb, agreed, but dumb beatsticking is "low optimization".

Not being able to prevent the teleportation is the weakness I'd have as a solo druid there, (can't think of any easy way for me to do that without book diving), otherwise this would be a 1spell-solvable encounter (modulo saves and/or spell resistance)


** I don't actually know if blade barrier can be cast "On the air", more or less the assumption for all wall spells is that they are put at ground level and "vertically oriented"

[Telonius]

2-3 hits of Shivering Touch ("not just for Dragons anymore") should do it unless you're very unlucky. Touch AC of only 13, Dex of 19, average damage per hit of 10.5. You'd need to roll an 11 to overcome the SR 25 (Assay Spell Resistance could help there).

[AvatarVecna]

"Give me an unoptimized build that can solo a high-CR melee-only demon! Like a T1 blaster with immediate action teleportation, or a psionic minionmancer! You know, unoptimized!"

[Gorthawar]

At the end of the day it is all just a question of where you set your optimisation level at your table isn't it? Just because you can create characters that can defeat a Marilith by themselves at level 14 doesn't mean it should be expected at every table.

And Age of Worms alone isn't exactly proof that optimisation is expected either. My campaign took the party through the sunless citadel, sons of gruumsh and is leading towards the city of the spider queen and I generally had to buff most of the encounter to deal with higher optimisation level of the characters. And without careful preparation most of them would not defeat the Marilith by themselves when they reach level 14.

This is partially due to the lower power level were playing at (planar binding and polymorph banned and the druid doesn't have wildshape for example) but more importantly it is because as a party they complement each other. As such they will be able to defeat opponents a couple CR higher than their party ECL without the requirement that you set for the challenge.

As such the challenge to build characters that can defeat a Marilith solo at level 14 is interesting but doesn't prove the point that it is required when playing at a standard optimisation level.

[Nezkrul]

Scout 4 / Ranger 10 Swift Hunter considered too optimized? It will win init against the maralith, and unless she has lair protections/barriers/movement restricting terrain working to her advantage, this build should be able to take her out in 1-2 rounds solo.

OP ?: Are you assuming the Maralith is using her treasure?

[Melcar]

When I run a "standard optimization" game, I expect players to be able to solo kill a Marilith at 14th level. This is my reasoning:
"Numerous prestige classes associated with demons and the Abyss have appeared in other D&D supplements. The following prestige classes should be of particular interest to any player character who is associated with demons in some way
...
Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East): None are more proficient with demon summoning than this master of the black art"
- FCI p.82

This quote is saying in no uncertain terms that WotC is saying 14th level characters binding Mariliths is not only expected but encouraged as well.
Which means, if a PC cannot take out an unbuffed unsupported Marilith all by themselves, then they need to up their game. Because that's the "game" part of the "social game".

But talking to some fellow DMs, they seem to disagree citing that this creature is CR17 and that I'm actually running a high-op game. I counter by saying Age of Worms expects parties to take on multiple encounters well above their ECL so it's actually they who are running a low-op game.
So to win this argument, I want to come up with a list of unoptimized character builds that are completely capable of taking out a marilith on their own at 14th level. To show that it's this easy to solo a Marilith at 14th level and that there's no excuse for not being able to accomplish such a feat.

So help me out. Give me some ways PCs can kill a Marilith all by themselves with 150,000gp of magic items without using high-op shenanigans.

Example1:
Wizard with maximized spell and abrupt jaunt. No metamagic reducers. He just lobs 3 maximized orbs while dodging the Marilith's attacks with abrupt jaunt. Marilith soloed with no wealth.

Example2:
Psion or Wilder with Astral Construct. Regardless of whether using the comp psi nerf of 1 construct out at a time, the 9th level astral constructs are gonna butcher the marilith no contest all by themselves. Also without wealth.

A druid summoner, with Greenbound Summoning, and a wow of poverty animal companion!!!

[MultitudeMan]

Anyway, continuing on with unoptimised stuff that can kill Mariliths, how about a 14th level Druid prestige classing into Spellwarp Sniper? (Confession, I love the idea of Druid -> Spellwarp, it's one of my little joys.)

I mean, sure, a 14th level druid likely counts as optimised given it's a druid, but let's hobble ourselves a bit. Let's not go with wild shaping or summoning, let's go with good old flat-out blasting.

Reach Spell and Maximise Spell. Now, what can we start with?

Call Avalanche. Druid 5, does 8d6 crushing damage which isn't touched by any of the Marilith's resistances, is not subject to Spell Resistance, and under Spellwarp Sniper has no Reflex save. Buries creatures of Large size or less ... oh, hey, the Marilith's a Large creature, isn't it?

Other fun stuff for Druid 9/Spellwarp Sniper 5, not filtered for Spell Resistance but still so much fun:

Sandblast (Druid 1): No save under spellwarp, automatic stun. Welcome to DEX-denied town, population you.
Frost Breath (Druid 2): 5d4 [cold] damage max, but I like that it’s a no-save automatic dazed effect when spellwarped.
Blinding Spittle (Druid 2): Can’t warp it, but it’s a ranged touch attack anyway and works at close range, so it can be teamed up with Mobile Spellcasting to splash-and-dash. Blinded is denied DEX bonus to AC, next round you’re wearing sneak attack damage on top of whatever else I feel like hitting you with.
Splinterbolt (Druid 2): Can’t warp it, but I can add sneak and skirmish. 4d6 base damage with an 18-20 critical hit range is a better damage dice and critical range than the best exotic melee weapon bases out there, and if I ab/use Acorn of Far Travel – which comes from the same article right down to using the same language of “forested terrain” – I add more damage and treat the projectile as a cold iron weapon.
Alicorn Lance (Druid 2): Can’t warp it, but it’s a ranged touch attack spell anyway, at close range that deals 3d6 force damage as a free action.
Wracking Touch (Druid 2): Once I Reach Spell this, I can add the sneak attack damage even if you’ve still got your DEX bonus to AC.
Icelance (Druid 3): 6d6 half cold, half piercing, I can’t warp it, but it gets a +4 to hit and if you fail your Fort save, Ms. Marilith, you’re stunned for 1d4 rounds ... huh, for someone with a massive CR like that you'd think they'd have shoehorned immunity to stun and critical hits. Guess not!
Thunderous Roar (Druid 3): Sure, take your half Fort save for maximum 5d6 damage, you’re still automatically knocked prone.
Flame Strike (Druid 4): Don’t care about your [fire] resistance, half of it is divine damage and you don’t get to save.
Blast of Sand (Druid 4): Really don’t care about your [fire] resistance because this is untyped damage.
Rusting Grasp (Druid 4): Just for the lols, let’s Reach Spell this and rust out Ms. Marilith's longswords.
Waterball (Druid 4): Sure it’s nonlethal, but you don’t get to half save against max 10d6, and maybe for the lols I’ll just walk up next to you while you’re unconscious and coup de grace you with a ray.
Flaywind Burst (Druid 5): 10d6 untyped damage, no save against this when spellwarped. Fort save or take the effects of an instantaneous Windstorm.

Sure, I have to futz around picking up sneak attack and Point Blank Shot, but give me Mobile Spellcasting and some land speed enhancers and I'm zapping the Marilith from 60 feet out and locking out its Reflex saves. Mobile Spellcasting combines a spellcasting and a move action, so I can ready it. The Marilith teleports on me, I move and blast it with no-Reflex save direct damage spells.
I was reminded of an Iron Chef build I liked recently (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25279395&postcount=68), and then I looked up who the chef was :smallsmile: .

[Jack_Simth]

2-3 hits of Shivering Touch ("not just for Dragons anymore") should do it unless you're very unlucky. Touch AC of only 13, Dex of 19, average damage per hit of 10.5. You'd need to roll an 11 to overcome the SR 25 (Assay Spell Resistance could help there).

Maximize one and Quicken the other?

[ngilop]

isn't this like a textbook definition of 'guy at the gym fallacy'?

Or am i getting it wrong.



Either way, i fail to se how a character that is specialized and optimized for a certaint ype of monster means that every other character needs to be able to compete at thatr exact level or be less than useful?

[Zanos]

"Give me an unoptimized build that can solo a high-CR melee-only demon! Like a T1 blaster with immediate action teleportation, or a psionic minionmancer! You know, unoptimized!"
Thank god, I thought I was the only one.



If you are binding an army, there is no reason for you to be an adventurer. BBEGs regularly use planar binding to get their army. If you are an adventurer then you are not someone who would bind an army.
So it's completely arbitrary? What's an army? 4 mariliths isn't an army.


"Demon summoners who are not evil take great care to ensure that no demon in their service is ever free to work its evils on the world."
- FCI p.82

Binding more demons than necessary defies the above quote and an adventurer demon summoner should be able to solve any task with only one.
You said yourself that demon binders underperform in your game, so clearly more than one demon is sometimes necessary. Also, Evil adventurers exist. A lot of the first characters played in the game were very dark shades of Neutral and outright Evil in some cases(Robilar, Raistlin, Rary, Mordenkainen)



If you want to use devils, sure. But I believe devils have contested RAW on whether they can be enslaved or not. I chose Marilith because she is the strongest demon you can bind without infernal bargainer and the quote comes from FCI.

By CR, maybe. If you exclude devils due to the confusion around infernal bargaining, you can still grab a CR 16 planetar that casts as a 17th level cleric. Should a low optimization character be able to defeat a 17th level cleric that is also an angel? Or is there some arbitrary restriction against that, because if you use planar binding to summon an angel you're no longer an adventurer?


I have extensive experience DMing tables that utilized Planar Binding and it was never a problematic spell. In fact demon summoner players were often at the bottom of player strength in the party because stock monsters without optimization cannot hold a candle to properly built player characters. Even fighters. Given my experience I can't help but conclude that only low-op tables find planar binding problematic.
I guess if you make an arbitrary restriction that anyone that planar binds more than one creature is not an adventurer anymore, than yeah, it's not as much of a problem.


You used the word "cheese" not optimization. "Cheese" is a naughty word.
Fair enough; I was specifically referring to Abrupt Jaunt being well known low-level cheese, where many threats don't have ranged attack options and most don't have substantial reach. Abrupt Jaunt is merely very good at high levels, not cheesy.


A player characters whose options stand alone and don't interact with their other options is a standard optimized character. As in if everything used is out of the box with no stacking, cost negation, etc. it is standard optimization because wotc fully expects players to go through the books and add what they think is good to their characters. What they don't expect is synergy like hellfire warlock and binder. Or stacking every single metamagic reducer found throughout all the books into one character.
So no synergy = standard optimization.
Synergy = High optimization.
Nobody else uses this definition and it's probably what's causing your disagreements. Is using shapechange to turn into an obscure form with overpowered supernatural abilities or sky high stats not "optimized" then because it just uses one spell and has no internal synergy?


Once again Age of Worms begs to differ.
I've never played this module, isn't it pretty notorious for stacking up bodies? Just because one module is very hard doesn't mean that it should be the balancing point of the entire system. Tomb of Horrors for example is the extreme, not the baseline.


Perhaps you can elaborate how the wizard and wilder will lose to the marilith. Surprise round? Sure. Now the two needs to dip into other spells or their wealth to survive the surprise round. Afterwards it ends the same way.
Blade barrier and telekinesis do plenty of damage, the marilith isn't helpless in ranged combat. Telekinesis can either be used to throw a ton of weapons, which the marilith has by default, or to grapple/pin and slowly choke out since it can grapple with telekinesis at a +23 bonus, which is pretty okay against casters with low str and poor BAB. Or it can just throw something heavy for up to 15d6 damage. Greater Teleport prevents the astral construct from effectively body blocking for the Wilder, and in general allows the marilith to engage on its terms and set the distance the fight will take place at: telekinesis has a range of 400+40 per level, or 1040 for the marilith. The astral construct on its own does not have sufficient beatdown to kill the marilith before it kills the wilder, either with blade barriers or in melee. Even with good menu abilities, the construct has no method of overcoming alignment DR, meaning it's average DPR with +4 str, rend, and extra attack menu abilities against a DR 10 target is ~60 assuming all hits. If the marilith decides to kite, which it might rather than straight up fighting(it is literally a battlefield tactician in the monster writeup), the construct will never catch it, even with the celerity menu option the construct can only run 240 feet per round, and forfeits its attack if it does so. This also complicates orb strategies, as orbs are only short or medium range, which puts you at maybe 300 ft. tops with the medium range orbs, and 75 with the short range ones that have nice rider effects.

And again, most people are going to define an orb slinging abrupt jaunt wizard as an optimized character.

[Anthrowhale]

A minor comment on Telekinesis: the Marilith's longswords weigh 48 pounds and greater teleport only works with 50 pounds of objects. Hence, TK+greater teleport implies either using the 6 longswords (12d6~=42 damage potential) or using ad-hoc weapons for the violent thrust option.

It looks like the Siangham has the best damage/pound of the PHB weapons. A Marilith carrying 15 could generate 15d8~=67.5 damage.

Delving into the oddball weapons, Dragon #319 has the Cahulaks which weighs the same (30 pounds for 15 for a Marilith), and would increase damage potential to 30d6. This could increase to 31d6~=87.5 by swapping one Cahulaks for a Greatsword.

[JNAProductions]

You are supposed to optimize. That's the game part of "social game". Without any optimization you only have "social" which is larping. All players are expected to optimize quite a bit considering how extremely unforgiving this game is to new players.

Before I address your other points, I gotta ask. You do know that a blaster wizard is what wotc used to play test their content right? And they also used an astral construct wilder.

So are you here saying half built no synergy out of the box versions of the characters wotc used to play test their product is not standard optimization and instead high-op?

Blaster Wizard from WotC slings core-book AoEs like Fireball.

Orbs are already more optimized.
Abrupt Jaunt, even more so.

I'd be VERY curious to see if any Wizards of the Coast made PCs could handle a Marilith at level 14.

Edit: Biggus helpfully found me Mialee's build, for level 15.

72 HP
+5 Init
30' Speed
AC 16 (Touch 16, FF 11)
Saves of +10 Fort and +13 Will and Reflex
Strength 10
Dexterity 20
Constitution 14
Intelligence 24
Wisdom 13
Charisma 8

Her feats are:
Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Heighten Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration, Toughness, and Alertness*
*Only with her Familiar

She has the following spells that might see use against a Marilith:
1st: Mage Armor*2, Shield*3, Magic Missile*2
2nd: Maybe Web? She has two prepped.
3rd: Dispel Magic*2, Fireball
4th: Charm Monster*2, Stoneskin*2, Wall Of Fire
5th: Cone Of Cold, Hold Monster, Wall Of Force. Also Teleport to run away.
6th: Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Finger Of Death, Plane Shift, Prismatic Spray
8th: Horrid Wilting
How she beats the Marilith is an exercise for the reader. :P

[Melcar]

Blaster Wizard from WotC slings core-book AoEs like Fireball.

Orbs are already more optimized.
Abrupt Jaunt, even more so.

I'd be VERY curious to see if any Wizards of the Coast made PCs could handle a Marilith at level 14.

Edit: Biggus helpfully found me Mialee's build, for level 15.

72 HP
+5 Init
30' Speed
AC 16 (Touch 16, FF 11)
Saves of +10 Fort and +13 Will and Reflex
Strength 10
Dexterity 20
Constitution 14
Intelligence 24
Wisdom 13
Charisma 8

Her feats are:
Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Heighten Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration, Toughness, and Alertness*
*Only with her Familiar

She has the following spells that might see use against a Marilith:
1st: Mage Armor*2, Shield*3, Magic Missile*2
2nd: Maybe Web? She has two prepped.
3rd: Dispel Magic*2, Fireball
4th: Charm Monster*2, Stoneskin*2, Wall Of Fire
5th: Cone Of Cold, Hold Monster, Wall Of Force. Also Teleport to run away.
6th: Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Finger Of Death, Plane Shift, Prismatic Spray
8th: Horrid Wilting
How she beats the Marilith is an exercise for the reader. :P

Indeed… even WotC build characters like Elminster or Simbul are woefully unoptimized compared to the level of optimization in this thread…

[Mechalich]

How she beats the Marilith is an exercise for the reader. :P

Step One: Win Initiative ~50% chance. This assumes the characters start in the open aware of each other, which is advantaging Mialee, but not that much.
Round One Mialee's Turn: Greater Dispel Magic to take down the Marilith's Unholy Aura.
Round One Marilith's Turn: Take a Blade Barrier to the face (I'm going to assume Mialee is flying for the purpose of this scenario). With Stoneskin up, this drops her down to 30 hp if she fails to save.
Round Two Mialee's Turn: Cast Hold Monster and pray like h***. Mialee needs to roll an 8 or better to penetrate the Marilith's Spell resistance. The Marilith needs to roll a 9 or better to make a DC 23 Will save. This has about a 30% chance of working.
Round Three: Coup de Grace the Marilith (ideally have some summoned being with higher melee damage do this so it actually works)

Now, Mialee is vigorously anti-optimized. Swapping out her crafting feats for things like Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, and Improved Initiative and pumping her Int up to 28 by casting Fox's Cunning each morning get it over 40%.

I think a properly built 14th level Wizard could probably lob a Quickened Dispel Magic + Banishment in Round One with a greater than 80% chance of success.

[Batcathat]

You are supposed to optimize. That's the game part of "social game".

No, the game part of "social game" is... well, the game part. Rolling dice. Using the rules to resolve situations. Mechanics. Stuff like that. Optimization can be part of it, but it doesn't have to be and it's certainly not all of it. The least optimized character imaginable is just as much a part of the game as the most optimized character imaginable.

[Nezkrul]

For OP- quick rundown of a ranged scout ranger build

Bow of the wintermoon +splitting +sacred = 51,400

3 cold-iron raptor arrows = 24,036

Gauntlets of +6 dex = 36,000

Cloak of arachnida = 14,000

5x5 flying carpet = 20,000

Padded armor +1 = 1,158

Buckler +1 = 1,165

~2,200 left to spend

Scout 3 / Elf Ranger Substitution 1 / Ranger +9 / Scout +1

Feats—
Fl- point blank shot, fl- precise shot, 1- true believer (ehlonna), 3- improved skirmish, 4b- track, 6- swift hunter, 6b- endurance, 9- greater manyshot, 12- quick reconnoiter, 14b- improved initiative

ACF- Solitary Hunting (give up animal companion) -> add FE bonus on attack rolls

FE’s- evil outsiders +6, undead +3, >open< +2

Assume 18 dex to start -> +2 elf, +3 levels, +6 enhancement = 29 (+9)

Height advantage greater manyshot w/imp skirmish on Marilith = 6 arrows at (13 bab, +1 height, +1 pbs, +3 ehance, +6 FE, +9 dex, -8 MS) = +25 ea.

Each hit causes Str Mod + 1d8 + 2d6 sacred + 2d6 bane + 6d6 skirmish + 6 FE + 3 enhancement (magic, good, cold-iron, piercing)

Given the character’s evasion ability of ranger and really high reflex save, the blade barriers wont cause damage. The character also has spiderclimb while on his carpet of flying so knocking him off of it is nigh impossible. So really it all depends on engagement range. The character can still move 40 ft per round on his carpet and make full rapidshot attacks at long range, if needs be.

[Saintheart]

For OP- quick rundown of a ranged scout ranger build

Bow of the wintermoon +splitting +sacred = 51,400

3 cold-iron raptor arrows = 24,036

Gauntlets of +6 dex = 36,000

Cloak of arachnida = 14,000

5x5 flying carpet = 20,000

Padded armor +1 = 1,158

Buckler +1 = 1,165

~2,200 left to spend

Scout 3 / Elf Ranger Substitution 1 / Ranger +9 / Scout +1

Feats—
Fl- point blank shot, fl- precise shot, 1- true believer (ehlonna), 3- improved skirmish, 4b- track, 6- swift hunter, 6b- endurance, 9- greater manyshot, 12- quick reconnoiter, 14b- improved initiative

ACF- Solitary Hunting (give up animal companion) -> add FE bonus on attack rolls

FE’s- evil outsiders +6, undead +3, >open< +2

Assume 18 dex to start -> +2 elf, +3 levels, +6 enhancement = 29 (+9)

Height advantage greater manyshot w/imp skirmish on Marilith = 6 arrows at (13 bab, +1 height, +1 pbs, +3 ehance, +6 FE, +9 dex, -8 MS) = +25 ea.

Each hit causes Str Mod + 1d8 + 2d6 sacred + 2d6 bane + 6d6 skirmish + 6 FE + 3 enhancement (magic, good, cold-iron, piercing)

Given the character’s evasion ability of ranger and really high reflex save, the blade barriers wont cause damage. The character also has spiderclimb while on his carpet of flying so knocking him off of it is nigh impossible. So really it all depends on engagement range. The character can still move 40 ft per round on his carpet and make full rapidshot attacks at long range, if needs be.

Side question, but seeing as we're talking about something with a lot of spell-like abilities, would the marilith ping a Ranger's Arcane Hunter ACF? "At 1st level, you gain favored enemy (arcanists). This feature works just like the favored enemy ability. The bonuses granted apply to any character capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations (but not other spell-like abilities)."

Would that mean (Sps) that duplicate Sor/Wiz spells (but not Sps off the cleric lists, et. al.) would make the marilith an arcanist covered by that ACF?

[Silly Name]

Side question, but seeing as we're talking about something with a lot of spell-like abilities, would the marilith ping a Ranger's Arcane Hunter ACF? "At 1st level, you gain favored enemy (arcanists). This feature works just like the favored enemy ability. The bonuses granted apply to any character capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations (but not other spell-like abilities)."

Would that mean (Sps) that duplicate Sor/Wiz spells (but not Sps off the cleric lists, et. al.) would make the marilith an arcanist covered by that ACF?

No, Spell-Like Abilities work like spells but aren't spells, and the text of the Arcane Hunter ACF is pretty clear on this: it triggers against invocations, but not against other spell-like abilities.

[AvatarVecna]

And like...I'm not dunking on Wizards or casters in general. Casters absolutely kick ass, and you could probably build a pretty good one that could solo a marilith way earlier than lvl 14. But...


Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East): None are more proficient with demon summoning than this master of the black art"
- FCI p.82

This quote is saying in no uncertain terms that WotC is saying 14th level characters binding Mariliths is not only expected but encouraged as well.
Which means, if a PC cannot take out an unbuffed unsupported Marilith all by themselves, then they need to up their game. Because that's the "game" part of the "social game".

This is fundamentally misunderstanding how the process of demon summoning works, and misconstruing what WotC is saying.


Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East): None are more proficient with demon summoning than this master of the black art"
- FCI p.82

Firstly, this is just blatantly untrue. Which is fine - it's pure fluff text, WotC fluff text will do this exact same "pump up how cool they are" about PrCs meant for monks and fighters. It's not a statement about mechanical expectations. Case in point: because Nar Demonbinder gives it's own casting that tops out at 8th lvl spells, a build with more than three levels in Nar Demonbinder is incapable of casting Gate - the absolute top tier in summoning spells. One could make a decent argument that, at ECL 14 specifically, the Nar Demonbinder with a few thematically-focused 8th lvl spells is still ahead of the Wizard who still only has 7th lvl spells, but past ECL 14, ND starts falling behind, and catching up is impossible. And heck! Even at ECL 14, they're only winning against standard builds. A cleric 5/ur priest 9 is the same ECL, basically wasted 5 levels of his build, and he's got Gate at the same level Nar Demonbinder has peaked. It's not even the best at its job for its level.


This quote is saying in no uncertain terms that WotC is saying 14th level characters binding Mariliths is not only expected but encouraged as well.

Secondly, that's not what it's saying. At all.

"There's no one better" is not the same thing as "we expect you to succeed". Consider the following phrase:

"None are more proficient at punching asteroids away from Earth than Mike Tyson."

Now, we could argue the veracity of this statement - maybe give opinions on people whose punches we consider to deliver more force than those of Mike Tyson's punches. But what we can't argue is that Mike Tyson, or any of those other people, could actually stop an asteroid from hitting the earth just by punching it. It's just not a thing they are capable of pulling off, that's just not how physics works. Mike Tyson is certainly more proficient at it than anybody I know. Just not proficient enough to succeed.

"Being the best" and "being competent" are not synonymous phrases. Summoning and binding fiends is dangerous business by the sheer fact that you are making an enemy of a creature more or less made of pure hateful spite, who is incapable of dying. A successful binding will have you looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life, and successful bindings are hard to pull off in the first place. There's a lot of little things that can go wrong. Nar Demonbinders specializing in it means they're better at managing those risks, but it doesn't necessarily mean "WotC fully expects them to succeed every time".


Which means, if a PC cannot take out an unbuffed unsupported Marilith all by themselves, then they need to up their game.

Thirdly, even if WotC's intentions is that NDs are expected to succeed at summoning/binding, "successfully bind a marilith to your will" and "successfully defeat a marilith in honorable 1v1 combat after summoning it" are not synonymous phrases. Wizards don't bind demons to their will by challenging them to a duel - they cheat. That's the whole point of binding: the demon was minding their own business taking a bath in the blood of the innocent or whatever, and just as they were reaching for a rubber duck, they get yoinked across four planar boundaries straight into a magic prison designed specifically to keep them inside forever, and the only guy with a key is standing there insisting he'll only let you go free if you tell him where your pot of gold is. No combat is required, because the demon can't escape the magic prison to fight you at all. And even if it kills you, it's gonna be trapped in there for a good long while. Maybe forever, even. So it has to negotiate, because fighting can't solve it's problems.

Even if WotC expects you to be able to bind a demon, that's not the same thing as "WotC expects you to solo a demon in a fair fight".

Finally, that last part is just patently untrue, and it's the actual reason you're getting pushback. People aren't just allergic to optimization - it's the assertion that a single line of fluff text in a single book gives you the impression that WotC expects a lvl 14 PC to solo a CR 17 monster, when not only the fundamental math behind encounter design explicitly disagrees with that conclusion, but basically every single example NPC ever designed by WotC fails to live up to what you're imagining. WotC designed countless NPCs to showcase what their PrCs could do for a PCs build, basically every single one of those builds is blatantly breaking the rules in their own favor in at least one way, and they're all still trash. I was a little disappointed to see that Unapproachable East is one of the books that doesn't have sample NPCs, as I would've loved to just pull up a lvl 12 or whatever Nar Demonbinder and been like "this is what expected performance looks like for the exact trash you're praising". Alas, I'll have to settle for the dozens and dozens of other mid-high level caster builds sprinkled throughout the game.

[Zanos]

I remember in nwn2 you can throw maximized orbs as well. And no one used them. Everyone would rather play the spell resistance game with spell penetration and assay resistance and cast powerful AoE spells rather than use orbs. And melee characters were just as deadly as spellcasters. In nwn2 you can really see how wizards restricted to combat only spells and a single metamagic per spell aren't that strong at all.

Which is why I seriously doubt that tabletop, which has more options and is completely unrestricted by the game engine, would consider a nwn2 wizard high op.
People don't use orbs in NWN2 because:
-Better homebrew spells exist:
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_Lesser_Missile_Storm
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_Greater_Missile_Storm
-Almost all fights feature somewhere between 6-20 enemies, inflating the value of area of effect spells and devaluing single target spells.
-Spell resistance is uncommon in all the single player campaigns. The only enemies I can think of that actually have high enough SR to be problematic are the monk vampires in MotB.

You actually wouldn't play a wizard at all in NWN2 unless you specifically wanted to use Red Wizard of Thay. Sorcerer is better than wizard for almost all builds because spell versatility is pointless in most D&D CRPGs, where spells that are useful out of combat functionally don't exist and you just want more casts of the 2-3 spells per spell level that are good. CRPGs are so different than PNP I don't know why you would even bring this up as a balance point, and be wrong about it to boot.


I still fail to see how dodging 4 attacks rises to the level of "cheese". Invisibility lets you be untargetable. Is that "cheese"? That's a 2nd level spell. How about mirror image? How is making the wizard harder to kill 4 times a day "cheese"?

I had wizards with abrupt jaunt bleeding to death at low levels. You know how I did that? 2 archers. First archer forces him to use abrupt jaunt. Second archer hits him because you can only use 1 immediate action a round.

If your table considers an ability that is thwarted by 2 archers "cheese", I shudder to think just how much of the game you have banned at your table. In any case, I think you are playing at an extremely low-op table and is not the norm.
It's cheese because of the gap in performance between a wizard that does and doesn't have abrupt jaunt is massive at low levels. It's effectively "negate four melee attacks a day." That's an incredibly valuable ability. Just because an ability doesn't work in every conceivable situation doesn't mean it's not cheesy. If there was a way to get Spell Immunity at level 1 for one feat would you consider that to not be cheesy because a character can still be hit with a greatsword and killed? Maybe you wouldn't, but most people measure cheese by the gap in performance by characters who are and aren't using cheesy strategies, and don't discount something as cheese just because it doesn't make a character invincible in all scenarios.


When I have the time I will comb through some of the books for the wizard builds. Let's see if there is one on the same level as a blaster who uses maximize spell.
You won't find any abrupt jaunt wizards using orb of fire/force.

[Anthrowhale]

Incorrect. 1d8 siangham is 2lbs. So you're looking at 15d6 instead.
Let's leave telekinesis out for now. Blade Barrier does the same damage and is a reflex save instead of an attack roll.

Marilith's are large, so they use a 2lb siangham which does 1d8 damage. 15 of them will thus weigh 30 lbs (within the 50lb limit of Greater Teleport) and do 15d8 damage.

The reason to consider a TK approach is that it supports a range of 1040' which can counter longer ranged combatants. Blade Barrier in contrast has a maximum range of 260'. Project Image even provides a good means to achieve long range targeting.

[AvatarVecna]

It's cheese because of the gap in performance between a wizard that does and doesn't have abrupt jaunt is massive at low levels. It's effectively "negate four melee attacks a day." That's an incredibly valuable ability. Just because an ability doesn't work in every conceivable situation doesn't mean it's not cheesy. If there was a way to get Spell Immunity at level 1 for one feat would you consider that to not be cheesy because a character can still be hit with a greatsword and killed? Maybe you wouldn't, but most people measure cheese by the gap in performance by characters who are and aren't using cheesy strategies, and don't discount something as cheese just because it doesn't make a character invincible in all scenarios.

Slight correction: it negates four melee full attacks per day. The big draw is that, if somebody starts their turn in melee range of you (or is the rare monster that can get a bunch of attacks in the same turn they move), they have a solid chance of wasting you even if their damage per attack is crap, because this game tends to bias in favor of offense - even bad damage just tends to outpace HP, no matter which side of the screen you're on. But if you have, for example, some method of escaping the first attack by teleporting away (thus putting you out of range of all attacks), well that would be pretty effective. In fact, the more attacks they have, the more attacks you're preventing with a single use of this ability. This makes it pretty freaking good against somebody with a ton of attacks per round, who can't easily switch to a ranged weapon (such as if they don't have one, or their ranged options are spell-dependent and they've already started a full attack this round).

(You already knew all this, just felt like making a slight correction to make it more clear to others why this ability is considered really really good, especially in this exact scenario.)


You won't find any abrupt jaunt wizards using orb of fire/force.

Seconded. Admittedly, though, it can be hard to tell. WotC example builds tend to be "core + whatever book you're reading right now". Orb spells are from Tome Of Blood, Miniatures Handbook, and Spell Compendium, which is pretty limited selection for finding broken caster builds. And because it tends to focus on core stuff, it's pretty easy for a particularly powerful spell and especially skill (cough cough Diplomacy) to end up in an NPC statblock, without any idea of if WotC gave it to them because they didn't know the cheese strat, or because they were signalling "this is what expected performance looks like".

However, one place this doesn't happen often is feats: core feats tend to be situationally good at best (metamagic and item crafting are theoretically powerful, but NPCs rarely seem to be leveraging them in an effective way). Metamagic tends to be very hit or miss, especially core stuff. However, there is one core feat that is obviously the bare minimum of optimization for a particular class, and I'm struggling to find even a single NPC I've seen take it in any book: Natural Spell. No druid without that feat could be considered optimized - it's the bare minimum, it's right in core, so there's no excuse for an NPC druid to not have it other than "WotC legitimately thought some lame core feat was a better pick".

[ciopo]

Legends says wild shape is a ribbon at most

[Anthrowhale]

The most optimal option for telekinesis is 15 colossal weapons totaling 375 lbs (4d6 x 15 = 210 avg damage).

Honestly, sacrificing Greater Teleport mobility to deal more damage seems sketchy.

I believe you could make colossal weapons work with Greater Teleport by relying upon colossal arrows (3d6 damage). I didn't go there, because (as far as I know) the weight of colossal weapons is only specified in Savage Species, with the specification there contradictory to the player's handbook in case of size. It's somewhat murky.

[Saintheart]

I finally read and looked up everything you said. But I really didn't need to read past call avalanche now did I?

Perma buried no-save marilith forced to run away because she can't do anything. Is that right? Your character kills colossal telekinesis as well.

I doubt a DM would say it's perma-buried, but it puts rather a crimp in the creature's ability to hit anyone, since using spell-like abilities - i.e. teleporting out of burial - costs a standard action, after which it can only perform a move action. At best it gets within melee range. My answer to that is to cast defensively (DC 20, not hard for a 14th level character who, if he's been maxing Concentration, can have a +17 before stat bonuses are factored in.) and hit the marilith with another Call Avalanche, spellwarped. At which point we repeat the process, since the marilith once more has to waste its standard action on teleporting and then not doing much else.

It's not a no-risk strategy, but it does rule out flying swords coming at my head too. But then the telekinesis can be stopped by another Druid 4 spell, Friendly Fire. Any ranged attack gets flicked at "another target" within 30 feet, let's say, the marilith.

The hole in it is the marilith getting "smart" and teleporting itself with perfect accuracy about fifty feet above my head, and relying on falling damage. Things get a bit trickier then :)

[Anthrowhale]

...

A spellwarp tangent---Dragon #358 has "Slimy Spell" metamagic which adds a nauseate 1 round rider with a reflex save to 1 targeted creature. Under spellwarp, that becomes an automatic nauseated condition, a universal action debuff eliminating all but a move action.