Struggling with turn stacking: Rebuke Dragons Cleric ACF + Dread Necromancer Rebuke

[redking]

Dragon Magic supplement has a cleric ACF that grants rebuke dragons. However, it is not clear that it stacks with turn/rebuke undead from other sources. Apparently, this is one pool of turning that stands apart from the turn/rebuke undead pool.

Dread Necromancer grants rebuke undead.

If I am a 5th level Rebuke Dragons Cleric, and 5th level Dread Necromancer, is my Effective Turning Level 10 for both classes, or 5 in each class. In addition, do I have 2 turning pools, or just one?

[ciopo]

Your turning level for rebuking dragon is 5 (your cleric level).
Your turning level for rebuking undead is 5 (your dread necromancer level).
For the above : this is because the dread necromancer feature lacks the "this stacks with rebuke undead granted by other classes" paragraph

They are two separate pools

[redking]

Your turning level for rebuking dragon is 5 (your cleric level).
Your turning level for rebuking undead is 5 (your dread necromancer level).
For the above : this is because the dread necromancer feature lacks the "this stacks with rebuke undead granted by other classes" paragraph

They are two separate pools

What a can of worms. Here is what Dread Necro says -


Rebuke Undead (Su): A dread necromancer can rebuke or command undead creatures by channeling negative energy through her body. See the cleric class feature.


So what does the Cleric class feature say -


Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see above).

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

Also nothing about stacking.

Let me get this straight. Cleric and Dread Necromancer don't stack for rebuke, period. This goes against pretty much all the handbooks I have seen.

[ciopo]

That's my read, yes. At least for Rebuke dragons and rebuke undeads.

If it was rebuke undead+rebuke undead, that would be comparably more confusing.... with the strictest reading be that you would have one pool of 3+CHA, and turning level of highest between cleric and DN.

That's strictest, the more permissive one I would go would be two pools of rebuke undead,with two different turning levels.

Having the turning level stack is reasonable but houseruling, since there is no ink on the paper that says those levels stacks.

Samey for paladin/cleric multiclassing, unless there is some rule in some other book that clarify that they do stack for the purpose of determining turning level

[redking]

We're gonna need some rules lawyers to swing in here and clarify this.

[ciopo]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm

It clarifies how turn undead stacks for cleric/paladin.

Reasonable extrapolation from that is that cleric/DN follows the same rules.

So ... stacking levels,one pool.

That's the simple case when you're not ACFinf your clerical rebuke undead for something else.

One or two pools... eh

I would say two pools, one is rebuke dragons, one is rebuke undeads, and they have separate turning level, because they stopped being the same class feature, you're not doing undead+undead anymore after all

[sleepyphoenixx]

Every kind of rebuke/commmand or turn/destroy is its own thing. If it has its own turning pool it doesn't stack with abilities that grant you other pools.
If a class grants the ability its levels stack for that ability only.
If you trade the ability away via ACF your levels no longer grant that ability so its levels don't count for it.

Cleric only stacks for turn/destroy undead if he chooses turn/destroy undead (neutral or good).
Cleric only stacks for rebuke/command undead if he chooses rebuke/command undead (neutral or evil).
Cleric stacks for neither if he chooses the rebuke/command dragons ACF. If you take another class that adds rebuke/command dragons your cleric levels would stack with it.
If a cleric takes turn/destroy and later adds Sacred Exorcist for turn/destroy they stack because they're the same ability, but you also only have the one turning pool.
If he somehow manages to take rebuke/command and later gets into Sacred Exorcist he gets rebuke/command at his cleric level and turn/destroy at his Sacred Exorcist level, with separate turning pools for each.

Dread Necromancer only gets rebuke/command undead, so that's the only kind his levels stack for.

If you're a cleric 5 with rebuke dragons ACF and a DN 5 with rebuke undead your turning levels are 5 for dragons and 5 for undead, but they have separate turning pools.

[Lorddenorstrus]

OP are you looking at amassing Turn Pools for DMM purposes?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?191894-3-5-Stacking-TU-attempts-for-DMM

One of the Moderators actually explains how to stack pools it in a great way on first comment.. from this very old thread I linked.

[redking]

OP are you looking at amassing Turn Pools for DMM purposes?

No. Just trying to figure out Effective Turning Level. The replies in this thread have been most edifying.

[daremetoidareyo]

That's my read, yes. At least for Rebuke dragons and rebuke undeads.

If it was rebuke undead+rebuke undead, that would be comparably more confusing.... with the strictest reading be that you would have one pool of 3+CHA, and turning level of highest between cleric and DN.

That's strictest, the more permissive one I would go would be two pools of rebuke undead,with two different turning levels.

Having the turning level stack is reasonable but houseruling, since there is no ink on the paper that says those levels stacks.

Samey for paladin/cleric multiclassing, unless there is some rule in some other book that clarify that they do stack for the purpose of determining turning level

Total concurrence here. Elegantly stated, cioppo

[daremetoidareyo]

Benefit: You channel divine energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) dragons. This ability functions as an evil cleric rebuking undead.

…

An attempt to rebuke dragons counts as an attempt to turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for or activating divine feats, or for using other abilities that require you to expend a use of your turn or rebuke ability.


I have bolder the parts that can be interpreted to argue in favor of rebuke levels stacking.

If you argue that Effective rebuking levels count as an ability that requires you to expand the use of your rebuke ability.