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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Salvaging the Lost Tradition feat



Marin
2022-05-11, 04:35 PM
Lost Tradition is a feat that can only be taken at first level that allows you to set your spellcasting stat, including both DCs and Bonus spells, to any stat you want. Power-wise, it's garbage. You're spending a precious feat to make a lateral move by doing something other classes could've done out of the box. Absolutely no guides on making a powerful character are going to recommend you take this feat, because it's often easier/more effective to just pick a class that casts with the stat you want to use. There's just one small detail... You can pick physical stats as your casting stat.

That little factoid, arguably an oversight and completely unintentional, has made this feat a bit of a joke over the years. I'd like to try and salvage it though. Because like... the idea of using physical stats as casting stats is a bit absurd at a glance. And yeah, it really doesn't make sense without taking the time to think out how it would work. But does it have to be absurd? Below I'd like to make use cases for each of the physical stats, including the underlying logic of how it works and the limitations inherit to such use cases. This can serve for inspiration, and as food for thought if you ever really want to live out that Muscle Wizard fantasy but want to explain it to your DM in a way that doesn't offend them. As with all homebrew, that doesn't mean your DM has to accept it. This is just my attempt to make the best out of a lacking feat. No attempt was made to make all three stats equal. All three are intended to be inferior to the non-homebrew mental stats, so I'm not too concerned with that.

Strength
How does it work?
Strength based magic would operate on the principle of converting kinetic energy into other types of energy. You punch something, and the kinetic energy fuels a spell. Stronger characters have more kinetic energy to throw around, and get to cast more spells as a result.

Limitations; aka why the tradition was lost
I would require someone playing a character like this to take a flaw that says they have to add a melee touch attack to any spell that doesn't already require one, replacing a ranged attack if one is present, and that any AoE spells they cast are centered upon the creature or object they strike. This is a pretty severe flaw in three ways: Makes spells less reliable (more chances to fail), makes it very likely AoE spells will hit the caster, and makes opportunity attacks harder to avoid. Congrats on being a wizard that fights in melee. It ain't great. I would probably count this as two flaws, because it's VERY severe by the standards of flaws.

But it's not entirely without merit, because having a big strength score means that spells that required a melee attack roll are quite a bit more reliable than they'd be on a normal caster.

Dexterity
How does it work?
Dexterity based magic would operate using a bunch of intricate hand-gestures similar to Ninjutsu from Naruto. Higher level spells require additional gestures to complete.

Limitations; aka why the tradition was lost
I would again require someone playing a character like this to take a flaw. This flaw would state that all spells have somatic components that cannot be removed. ...Because your magic is all somatic movements. So no still spell. If you can't make somatic movements, you're simply out of luck. You also need two, not one, hands free to use spells. Unlike the flaw of strength casting, I'd consider this to be only one flaw's worth of downside. Your DM can definitely exploit this to challenge you or even make your life Hell, but if they don't it's not particularly limiting.

Again, this is not without its benefits. Spells that have ranged attacks, which include some of the best blasting spells in the game, benefit from your dex stat being bigger than most casters will, as does your AC.

Constitution
How does it work?
Admittedly, Constitution based magic was the hardest to rationalize. However... we technically already have an example of it in D&D. Dragons! Their breath weapons are CON based. And from what I can tell, the reason a dragon's breath weapon is CON based is because they're basically infused with a ton of elemental energy that's a part of their digestive systems and are more-or-less... barfing it at you when they use their breath weapons. That's right. It doesn't come from the lungs. So they're engaging in behavior that's reasonably hard on their bodies when they do that. That's why your typical dragon has a cooldown after using it, I surmise.

So why couldn't say... a dragonfire inspiration using their breath weapon do the same? The answer is that a dragonfire inspirant isn't usually infused with a ton of elemental energy like a dragon is. But if we wanted to play a character who was infused with elemental energy like a dragon, how would we represent that?

The answer is that they would need an elemental subtype. And of course, this is also the most limited type of spellcasting without further homebrew. See the limitations below.

Limitations; aka why the tradition was lost
Flaws flaws and more flaws. For starters, you need the elemental subtype. You either need to play a race that has one, such as a dragon, or haggle with your DM to see if you can get one. Subtypes usually come with both a benefit and an equivalent flaw, so aren't a huge deal. But it has lore implications for your character. This isn't a flaw as in the flaws system that rewards you with feats, but is more just a logical concession that needs to be made.

I would have them take a flaw that says you can only cast spells that have the same elemental descriptor as your subtype. If you are earth subtype, you cannot use the energy inside of you to cast cold descriptor spells. The snowcasting feat can potentially help if you have the cold subtype, but I don't know that equivalent feats exist for other subtypes. It may be worth asking your DM if you can homebrew a feat that does the same thing, but reflavored for other descriptors. You'll have to work out an appropriate material component for each. So now you have to burn two feats, the first to get CON casting and the second to uncripple your spellcasting.

I would have them take a second flaw that says any spell they cast has its default damage type changed to match whatever is most appropriate for their subtype. So if you're fire subtype, your spells only deal fire damage. Why is that a bad thing? Because it doesn't particularly benefit you in 99% of situations and makes it suck if you run into enemies with resistances. If they want to be able to do different types of damage, they need to take the energy substitution feat. That's three feats to remove a lingering weakness of your spellcasting.

I would make an exception to the rule that says you can only take two flaws and have them take a third that says you cannot cast spells that don't deal damage. Yeah, you get pigeonholed into being a blaster. That's the bullet you bite being CON based. Launching elemental fire at people does not in any way translate to a sleep spell. Alternatively, if you don't want them to have that extra flaw, you could just bundle this one into the second flaw. I'd consider these three flaws worth of downsides personally though. And since you have to spend 2-3 feats to get CON casting and then uncripple your spellcasting, I don't think it's a big deal in this specific case.

In return, you get to make your Barbarian squint at you when you mention how much HP you have.


Concessions
For physical spellcasting, it doesn't make as much sense for you to run out of spells. Why is it that once you cast X spells per day, punching enemies no longer sets them on fire? You're still generating kinetic energy. Why can't you just... make those hand-gestures again? Dragons don't run out of breath weapons. They just need to catch their breath for a couple of rounds. So why do you run out of spells? (Authors note: This is technically not true. Dragons can run out of breath weapon. It's just not normally a concern over the duration of a normal battle. That would be more analogous to starving to death for a dragon, with each use of their breath weapon serving to work toward their hunger.)

I would say the best solution is to just not think about it this hard, but the second best solution is a simple one. Your spellcasting stops working past a point because much like a traditional arcane caster's casting strains their mind, your spellcasting strains your body. Why can't a Wizard simply memorize more spells after they've used them? Why can't a Cleric simply ask Sky Daddy for more? Their minds can't handle it. Your body can't handle it. You can try, but you'll whiff the spell, or open the door to your DM taking a price out of your hide if they decide to let you break limits. By default you need a full rest like anyone else. Though a more lore-friendly solution would probably include a meal and the time to digest and let your body heal the micro injuries caused by exertion. (So if you don't eat, you don't recover spells.)

Also why don't you deal unarmed damage when using strength based casting? Well--If it did, that would mean you could wear a gauntlet, enchant it with weapon qualities, and get all sorts of wacky bonuses on top of your spell. THAT could add up to be a balance concern. Like a free sneak attack worth of d6s and weapon damage on every spellcast or other stuff. But also, the kinetic energy being used to fuel a spell does kind of imply it's not going into your target. So your punches should arguably be supernaturally weak such as to not constitute meaningful damage. So arguably it's just a melee touch attack that looks like a punch.

Though personally in a game with me, if a player was willing to agree not to engage in gauntlet shenaniganry, I'd probably be willing to allow them to deal their base unarmed damage on top of their spell just for fun's sake with the knowledge that as DR becomes more prevalent, they're not going to be able to overcome it without making considerable investments into that, such as taking monk levels or wasting actions casting spells or wearing magic items to help them. And at that point, they've earned it as far as I'm concerned.

Morphic tide
2022-05-12, 08:05 PM
The thing I'd consider first and foremost is that you should be getting the same outputs because you're using the same spells from the same class. It's the method of shaping the energy, not the underlying source, they're still the same class on the same side of the Arcane/Divine separation. How, exactly, is a Con-based Druid supposed to be working in this case when they're habitually shapeshifting? Given that, I'd describe Strength-based casting as literally wrestling it into shape, while Constitution is enduring backlash.

As for issues with the magic running out, I've been a fan of spells being inseparably soul-dependent. Divine casters can only handle so much channeled through them, Arcane only have so much gas in the tank, and Lost Tradition doesn't change this because it's just the "last-mile" application.

Jervis
2022-05-12, 08:37 PM
Dusting off my Rawfoo a bit a melee touch attack isn’t as bad as it sounds for spell delivery. IIRC charge holding rules mean the spell isn’t actually expended/cast unless you hit something. So it just means the spell has a chance of not doing anything that turn, and can still get slapped on next turn. You can also take multiple cracks at it depending on BAB on subsequent turns as well, meaning wizard monks are less memey. In some ways its better than ranged attack rolls, just, you know, they increase the odds of you dying a lot. Pretty fair exchange all things considered, especially because i’m 90% sure there are some ways to add unarmed strike damage and/or or sneak attack damage to a melee spell attack roll. Not a criticism btw, it’s still a pretty serious downside for your standard wizard.

Maat Mons
2022-05-12, 10:07 PM
Constitution seems like the easiest one to justify. Either you're a blood mage, literally spending your own vitality to fuel your spells, or your particular approach to spellcasting puts great strain on the body, so you can only channel as much energy as your body can handle. Personally, I'd make it a combination of the two. You use Constitution as your casting stat, representing the fact that how much energy you can physically endure flowing through your body is the limiting factor on your magic. And you take HP damage when casting spells that would normally have costly material components, representing your ability to fuel your magic with your own vitality.

Rater202
2022-05-12, 11:15 PM
Honestly, with physical stats for spellcasting I'd just fluff it that you're doing the Avatar thing: You're using physical movements and martial arts to channel your vital energy(chi) into the desired effect. (Dexterity)

Or Maybe the Naruto thing, where years of diet, exercise, and meditation build up your body's reserves of physical and mental stamina which you then focus on the desired effect. (Constitution)

It doesn't need a drawback, the only mechanic is that you're using a different stat. Not all traditions are lost because they have flaws. It could just be that casting with your classes default stat is more common or some cataclysm killed a bunch of the Lost Tradition's practitioners.

As for salvaging it. I mean, sometimes you need to use a certain casting stat but also need certain class features and can't afford to multiclass if you want you build to com online at the right point. I can see the feat working for TO scenarios or if someone wants to avoid MAD.

Jervis
2022-05-12, 11:51 PM
Honestly, with physical stats for spellcasting I'd just fluff it that you're doing the Avatar thing: You're using physical movements and martial arts to channel your vital energy(chi) into the desired effect. (Dexterity)

Or Maybe the Naruto thing, where years of diet, exercise, and meditation build up your body's reserves of physical and mental stamina which you then focus on the desired effect. (Constitution)

It doesn't need a drawback, the only mechanic is that you're using a different stat. Not all traditions are lost because they have flaws. It could just be that casting with your classes default stat is more common or some cataclysm killed a bunch of the Lost Tradition's practitioners.

As for salvaging it. I mean, sometimes you need to use a certain casting stat but also need certain class features and can't afford to multiclass if you want you build to com online at the right point. I can see the feat working for TO scenarios or if someone wants to avoid MAD.

TBH I don’t think using strength or dex is majority broken, certainly good with Gish builds who are typically suboptimal (speaking as a man who plays them almost exclusively). I can see some cheesy combinations with template stacking and size changes being used by wizards to buff their casting into the stratosphere since body stats are easier to buff with race/template choice, but outside of that I wouldn’t usually take this feat in a game without flaws outside of maybe swapping cleric casting to charisma. Constitution on the other hand is basically just making a single stat character. Maybe not the most broken in the world but it’s not my cup of tea.

icefractal
2022-05-17, 03:06 AM
IMO, Con is both the easiest to justify flavor-wise (channeling raw vitality, as some supernatural abilities do) and the most balanced, maybe even a little weak. Yeah, you gain HP and Fortitude, but you give up the benefits of a high mental stat. In a significantly low-point-buy game where you can only afford 1-2 good stats it'd shine.

Dex is about the same, but more broadly useful, and more beneficial to have a huge score in. For a stealthy caster, you could go full on "Rogue but better" this way. This is on the strong side, maybe not suitable in a lower-op game. Great for a Gish who can attack/damage with it.

Str is kinda broken as a casting stat, for the simple reason that it's easy to raise it much higher than the others. And a 50 casting stat is more problematic than a 50 smashing stat. But other than that it's between Con and Dex.

Jervis
2022-05-18, 12:11 AM
IMO, Con is both the easiest to justify flavor-wise (channeling raw vitality, as some supernatural abilities do) and the most balanced, maybe even a little weak. Yeah, you gain HP and Fortitude, but you give up the benefits of a high mental stat. In a significantly low-point-buy game where you can only afford 1-2 good stats it'd shine.

Dex is about the same, but more broadly useful, and more beneficial to have a huge score in. For a stealthy caster, you could go full on "Rogue but better" this way. This is on the strong side, maybe not suitable in a lower-op game. Great for a Gish who can attack/damage with it.

Str is kinda broken as a casting stat, for the simple reason that it's easy to raise it much higher than the others. And a 50 casting stat is more problematic than a 50 smashing stat. But other than that it's between Con and Dex.

TBF Illumian can kinda have strength and dex casting. Only for bonus spells mind you so no pumped DCs. Still thats a LOT of bonus spells.

Marin
2022-05-19, 07:36 PM
Constitution seems like the easiest one to justify. Either you're a blood mage, literally spending your own vitality to fuel your spells.

There's an idea I hadn't considered. A flaw that just has you taking damage on each spellcast. This is admittedly a simpler (ergo, better) way of justifying a CON based caster. Overall I imagine this would balance out with their higher HP pretty well. I'd speculate 1 damage per level of the spell being cast. (I might choose to waive the penalty for level 0 spells, since self-damage is disproportionately harsh at low levels)

The only trouble there would be the flavor of self-harm. Which isn't a big issue. It just means certain gods are probably off the table and you have to account for the edginess factor when considering the party dynamic.


Dusting off my Rawfoo a bit a melee touch attack isn’t as bad as it sounds for spell delivery. IIRC charge holding rules mean the spell isn’t actually expended/cast unless you hit something. So it just means the spell has a chance of not doing anything that turn, and can still get slapped on next turn. You can also take multiple cracks at it depending on BAB on subsequent turns as well, meaning wizard monks are less memey. In some ways its better than ranged attack rolls, just, you know, they increase the odds of you dying a lot. Pretty fair exchange all things considered, especially because i’m 90% sure there are some ways to add unarmed strike damage and/or or sneak attack damage to a melee spell attack roll. Not a criticism btw, it’s still a pretty serious downside for your standard wizard.

Pfft, holy cow you're right! Thanks for pointing this out. While I was reading the rules for myself, I noticed they actually say that (provided you are already holding a charge on a spell, meaning casting the spell and doing this are two separate actions), you can make unarmed / natural attacks to trigger a held touch spell, adding your damage on top of the spell. Which means that RAW, you absolutely can do insane gauntlet tricks and add hilarious amounts of damage on top of casting spells. Given that means you're targeting regular AC instead of touch AC, so probably a pretty risky move to pull if not because of the opportunity attack than because of the increased chance of whiffing. But now that I know this doesn't require homebrew at all I definitely want to try it for myself. It sounds fun!


Dex is about the same, but more broadly useful, and more beneficial to have a huge score in. For a stealthy caster, you could go full on "Rogue but better" this way. This is on the strong side, maybe not suitable in a lower-op game. Great for a Gish who can attack/damage with it.

Weeeeell ... yes and no. You can be a caster with great stealth. Buuuut as a caster your skills per level are taking a massive hit compared to a rogue with the same stats, meaning you're actually better off sticking with INT if you want to be good at skills. Which is a pretty important part of the rogue's job. Perhaps more importantly though, it's good to remember the Rogue's most important class feature: Trapfinding. Important because only a few classes get it and it takes a decent amount of investment to be good at it. Unless you have an agreement with your DM not to use traps, it's a really bad idea to go without. Like by 11-12th level, pre-generated traps start throwing Wail of the Banshee at you every round. And if you don't have trapfinding you just have to take that and every other trap in the area and hope you survive. Traps are NASTY because the game was probably designed with the expectation you'd never willingly trigger one twice once you've learned where it is so the first attempt better count for something.

Really if you want to be a better rogue with casting, a beguiler or a factotum'll do the job without any shenaniganry needed.