I would appreciate help with Save or die spells/effects vs. Regeneration + Fast Heal

[samduke]

basically just as the title suggests I am looking for more clarification of: Save or die spells/effects vs. Regeneration + Fast Heal

Presume the monster in question to have both Regeneration 15 (acid) & Fast Healing 10, now lets say said monster is hit by ANY of these kind of spells that are Save or Die
(Partial list but you get the idea)
Phantasmal Killer, Cloudkill, Slay Living, Disintegrate, Circle of Death), Harm, Prismatic Spray (Poison), Destruction, Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos, Earthquake, Symbol of Death, Power Word, Kill, Weird, Wail of the Banshee, Implosion

now near as I can tell a SoD spell/effect hits said creature if does not deal actual hp damage type thing, it more or less ignores regeneration.

I however am finding a hard time locating anything that covers how this may or may not work in conjunction with Fast Healing

so I am turning to you for any help on this

Regeneration
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration

Fast Healing
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing

[Beni-Kujaku]

Fast healing just heals damage, and Regeneration is basically just Fast Healing, except it also changes most damage to nonlethal, and only heals nonlethal damage. None of those work when you're dead. Save-or-Dies kill you without going through the process of dealing damage. You can't recover from that.

[Biggus]

Basically what Beni-Kujaku said. I think the key phrase is "Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing"; as natural healing can't bring you back from a save-or-die and FH isn't specifically noted to be able to do that, it can't.

[samduke]

okay so is there any monster ability special quality or the like that would prevent auto death from SoD effects, short of something like a contingency spell revivify or similar ?

[Velaryon]

The Tarrasque's version of the Regeneration ability specifies that it regenerates even it if fails a save vs. a disintegrate or death effect. I think you need something explicit like that, otherwise the SoD kills you just like it does anyone else.


okay so is there any monster ability special quality or the like that would prevent auto death from SoD effects, short of something like a contingency spell revivify or similar ?

Death ward is a level 4 spell for clerics and paladins (level 5 for druids) that provides immunity to exactly that. I'm sure there are magic items that do the same. Off the top of my head I'm not sure which monsters might have built-in immunity but I'm sure there are plenty that can cast it either as an SLA or as a spell.

[Doctor Despair]

Depends on the effect, but yes, there's generically a way to be immune to most effects if you look hard enough.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Death ward is a level 4 spell for clerics and paladins (level 5 for druids) that provides immunity to exactly that. I'm sure there are magic items that do the same. Off the top of my head I'm not sure which monsters might have built-in immunity but I'm sure there are plenty that can cast it either as an SLA or as a spell.

The only monsters that have built-in blanket immunity to SoDs are those who are not alive in the first place (Undead and Constructs. You can be just that with a few templates‚ the most easily accessible being Necropolitan)‚ gods and demigods (including abominations like the Phaeton)‚ and a rare few monsters who are explicitly hard to kill‚ like the Tarasque. It's not an extremely common ability‚ and much more easily accessible with spells.

[MultitudeMan]

Death ward is a level 4 spell for clerics and paladins (level 5 for druids) that provides immunity to exactly that. I'm sure there are magic items that do the same. Off the top of my head I'm not sure which monsters might have built-in immunity but I'm sure there are plenty that can cast it either as an SLA or as a spell.

There's always the list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). The "Immunity to Death effects" section has a number of items to which higher-level monsters might plausibly have access.

[samduke]

There's always the list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). The "Immunity to Death effects" section has a number of items to which higher-level monsters might plausibly have access.

ahh thank you for that list and for the suggestions guys

[ShurikVch]

In addition to the all aforementioned: Thoon Infiltrator (Monster Manual V) have the Eventual Comeback SQ

Eventual Comeback (Ex) The Far Realm parasite that powers a Thoon infiltrator can survive the death of its host, then revive that host. When a Thoon infiltrator reaches –10 hit points, it doesn’t actually die. All life functions cease, however, and the Thoon infiltrator is functionally a corpse for the purpose of resolving spells that affect dead bodies. It takes a DC 25 Search check to detect a slight vibration in the neck-tentacles that indicates that the creature is not fully dead. Removing the tentacles from the neck (a bloody process that requires a full-round action) kills a Thoon infiltrator for good.
If the tentacles aren’t removed, a Thoon infiltrator can effectively resurrect itself. After it has spent a month in the near-death state, a Thoon infiltrator returns to consciousness at full normal hit points. It then frees itself from burial with dimension door and tries to reestablish contact with its mind flayer masters.

[Doctor Despair]

In addition to the all aforementioned: Thoon Infiltrator (Monster Manual V) have the Eventual Comeback SQ

I suppose using animate dead probably prevents this?

[ShurikVch]

I suppose using animate dead probably prevents this?
If the parasite wasn't dead as well - then, apparently, no, not by the RAW: it don't refers Raise Dead spell line, and don't even required intact corpse...

[Doctor Despair]

If the parasite wasn't dead as well - then, apparently, no, not by the RAW: it don't refers Raise Dead spell line, and don't even required intact corpse...

What a strange situation to be in. I wonder what sort of creature would result

[Beni-Kujaku]

What a strange situation to be in. I wonder what sort of creature would result

"The parasite can effectively resurrect its host". I think it would just come back to life and be controlled by the parasite instead of the caster. After all, resurrection functions on undead.


By the way, short list of living monsters (from only the Monster Manuals, Fiend Folio and Epic Level Handbook) immune or quasi-immune to death effects:

MM1: Tarasque (but still takes 868 nonlethal damage)
MM2: Captured one (creatures controlled by Ragamoffyns get construct traits)
MM3: Lumi (flat-out immunity)
MM5: Thoon Infiltrator (sort of)
Fiend Folio: Monadic Deva (flat-out immunity), Demonflesh Golem (death effects slow it instead)

[Biggus]

There's also antimagic. Not a common ability (Windghost (MM2) is the only monster I know of with it, but there may be others) but it works.

There are feats which can help, such as the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel which can get you save rerolls. Obviously not the same as immunity but better than nothing if other options aren't available.

[Vaern]

"The parasite can effectively resurrect its host". I think it would just come back to life and be controlled by the parasite instead of the caster. After all, resurrection functions on undead.

Correction: Resurrection functions on someone that has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You can not resurrect someone who is currently an undead creature.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are some SoD's that are not death effects and so aren't stopped by Death Ward or similar immunities. Like Mummify (Sandstorm).


Correction: Resurrection functions on someone that has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You can not resurrect someone who is currently an undead creature.
That's not quite accurate - the spell description for Resurrection says you can't resurrect undead, but the rules for the undead type specify that they can be affected by Resurrection, they just don't come back as undead. It turns them back into the living creature they were before.


Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

Or in other words you can't use Resurrection to get back Jim the vampire who was destroyed by angry paladins, but you can cast it on Jim the vampire to get back Jim the living human without having to destroy the vampire first.

[ShurikVch]

Correction: Resurrection functions on someone that has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You can not resurrect someone who is currently an undead creature.
Note: it's "resurrect" - not "Resurrect" or "resurrect": simple verb rather than the spell's name (similarly, not all invisible creatures in the game are under the effect of the invisibility spell)


Bogeyman template (Menace Manual) gives immunity to necromantic effects, fast healing 5, and the Death's Door SQ:

Death's Door (Su): A bogeyman appears to die if reduced to –10 hit points. However, unless it is reduced to its negative Constitution score in hit points, its "death" is only temporary; when the bogeyman’s fast healing ability (see below) brings its hit point total to 1 or higher, it springs back to life.