PDA

View Full Version : 3rd Ed [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster



Saintheart
2022-05-12, 09:29 AM
The Question/s:

What stock D&D 3.5 monster, or stock D&D 3.5 monster with legitimate templates applied, can qualify for a given prestige class without taking class levels in anything?

Alternatively, what stock D&D 3.5 monsters - or stock D&D 3.5 monsters with legitimate templates applied - could qualify for a prestige class if they only, dammit, had just one other prerequisite they're missing from their stock stats?


Here, in this thread, we'll hopefully find some answers.




Under "Qualifies", the Marilith (CR 17) from the SRD. It has more than 8 ranks in Concentration, and it can use telekinesis as a spell-like ability. As such, it qualifies outright for Master of the Unseen Hand, a Prestige Class from Complete Warrior.

Under "Close", the Valkyrie (CR 9) from Tome of Battle. As a stock standard monster, it has Power Attack and a BAB of +11. Accordingly, it would be able to qualify for the Bear Warrior PrC from Complete Warrior ... if it had a rage or frenzy ability, which, unfortunately, it lacks.



Guiding principles/rules:

This isn't an optimisation exercise as such; it's more a "huh, interesting combination" thing to give DMs an easier-bake way to put intriguing prestige classes on their monsters with a minimum of fuss. No practicality required, no CR calculation required, it's just spinning ideas about what clicks into what or what could click into what if it only had X or Y.


Assume level adjustment is irrelevant, that you're sitting in the space of a DM who's able to ignore that for the purposes of putting a monster together.


Feat prerequisites marked "Special" should be noted if they appear to disqualify the creature, but are ignored for the purposes of qualifying.


Creatures with an alignment of "always X" incompatible with a proposed prestige class's prereqs are deemed as lacking one prerequisite. Exceptions exist, but the "always" suggests it should be so rare as to make it impractical or implausible for a DM to pull it out unless under very exceptional circumstances.


Creatures with an alignment of "usually X" incompatible with a proposed prestige class's prereqs do not have an impediment to qualification. It is implied in "usually" that exceptions are common enough to stretch this prerequisite.


"One prerequisite missing" can be ranks in a specific skill, an ability to cast spells, a feat, a single spell-like ability, an insufficient BAB, or similar. Don't put multiple skills together, count missing spell-likes separately.


If creatures are inherent casters, their list of "typical" spells count as the only spells they can put up as prerequisites. e.g. a Drider can cast second level spells, but none of them include Scare or Cause Fear on the typical stats. The drider would count as missing at least one prerequisite for Dread Witch. (It's also missing ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), which would make it missing a total of two prerequisites for this exercise.)


Masters of the Wild rules on "virtual feats" apply, i.e. if the creature has an ability or weapon proficiency that duplicates or grants the benefit of a feat otherwise needed to qualify for something, that satisfies the prerequisite.


Player races can be used for this exercise, but you have to use their monster stats, not their "as characters" semi-templates.


Don't be afraid to put up 'Close' cases! There might actually be a way found to work it.


An advanced stock monster - as in, advanced by adding HD to the monster according to its statblock - can use the increased BAB, saves, skills, or hit dice that result to qualify for a proposed prestige class. While the idea of this is about staying as close-ish as possible to stock monster statblocks, if increased RHD under this method of improving monsters gives you access to skill ranks and/or feats which permit you to qualify, please point these calculations out clearly for the benefit of any DMs coming through here to look. Please stick to the advancement guidelines given in the monster's statblock.


Creatures with "Advancement: By character class" can't use added player classes to provide prerequisites; it defeats the purpose of looking for close-to-stock standard monsters who can prestige.


All first party books including Dragon Compendium, and all Dragon magazine, is open for this. No Pathfinder or third party I'm afraid.



If the thread gets enough interest, I'll compile a running table with links to posts up here so future generations can marvel at your genius and generosity. :D And I'll be contributing as well.

That's it, have at it everyone! :D

Saintheart
2022-05-12, 10:23 AM
And also, to start us off with some ideas:

Close: Stone Giant (SRD) into Hulking Hurler (Complete Warrior).

Hulking Hurler requires Large Size, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (any thrown weapon), and BAB +5. Standard Stone Giant has all of these except for Weapon Focus. Its advancement is by character class, so we can't use advancing HD to qualify.


Qualifies: Cloud/Hill/Fire/Frost/Storm Giant (SRD) into War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook).

War Hulk requires Cleave, Large size, and BAB +5. All SRD giants (except the Stone Giant) meet all of these prerequisites.

zlefin
2022-05-12, 12:53 PM
An interesting idea, I'm looking through for some prospects now.

Assassin seems relatively easy to get into; all it takes is some skill ranks. Hide and move silently are pretty common; disguise is rarer, but quite a few humanoid shaped monsters have it. About a third of the fiends can directly take it. A few more can also take it by either advancing HD or reallocating the skill ranks they start with (and that have disguise as a standard skill); most of course could get the disguise ranks by buying them cross-class, as you don't need that many.

Horizon walker is somewhat feasible; while few monsters have Kn Geography, it's otherwise a pretty easy set of pre-reqs.

Uncle Pine
2022-05-12, 01:23 PM
Close: Greater Barghest (SRD) into Fiend of Corruption (Fiend Folio).

Fiend of Corruption requires to be an Outsider (Evil), a base Will save of +7 or more, 10 ranks in Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive, as well as access to either charm person or charm monster in the form of spells or spell-like abilities. The standard greater barghest checks almost all of these, but despite having Disguise as a class skills it sports a whopping 0 ranks in it. By advancing via its feeding ability, a greater barghest looking to enter the PrC could gain all the required ranks with only 1 extra HD (as an Outsider with 18 Int it gains 12 skill points/HD).

Interestingly enough, a standard succubus is not even close to qualify for Fiend of Corruption despite appearing in the cover art of the class as it's lacking in both the base Will save and Sense Motive skill ranks departments.

Qualifies: Barbed Devil, Bone Devil, Cerebrilith, Erynies, and Pit Fiend (SRD) into Fiend of Possession (Fiend Folio).

All these lovely devils possess the necessary prerequisites of being Outsider (Evil), having a base Will save of +5 or more, and 6 ranks in both Hide and Knowledge (arcana) to take FoP levels. Ice devils and imps are close but don't get quite there in their standard forms, as they lack Hide ranks and Will respectively.

Particle_Man
2022-05-12, 04:45 PM
Any monster with BAB +6 could qualify for Ruathar if they did a great service for the elves instead of trying to, you know, eat them. :smallsmile:

Saintheart
2022-05-12, 06:44 PM
Any monster with BAB +6 could qualify for Ruathar if they did a great service for the elves instead of trying to, you know, eat them. :smallsmile:

How about a Baelnorn!

Saintheart
2022-05-12, 10:18 PM
A couple more:

Close: Marrusault (Sandstorm) (CR 5) into Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior).
Marrusalts have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Falchion) and Weapon Focus in the same weapon and BAB of +6. What they don't have is 3 ranks in Craft (Weaponsmithing), and they advance by character class.

However...

Qualifies: Marrusault (Sandstorm) (CR 5) into War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook).
Marrusaults are Large, have Cleave, and their BAB is higher than +5. They qualify outright for War Hulk.

and...

Close: Marrutact (Sandstorm) (CR 5) into Horizon Walker (DMG).
Marrutacts have 10 freaking ranks in Knowledge (Geography), but they don't have Endurance.


Came across these guys while looking at Marrulurk into Assassin, which unfortunately isn't even close.

Also:

Qualifies: Glaistig Mindbender (Monster Manual 3) (CR 8) into Mindbender (Complete Arcane)
Mindbender requires ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive as well as Charm Person at caster level 5 as a spell or spell-like ability. The hilariously-appropriately-named Glaistig Mindbender ticks all of these boxes, right down to alignment, thus allowing DMs to face parties with a Glaistig Mindbender Mindbender. Which could be kind of terrifying given the first thing a Mindbender gets is telepathy, and has Ghost Sound and high modifiers in all the influencing skills.

Close: Glaistig (Monster Manual 3) (CR 6) into Mindbender (Complete Arcane)
The default glaistig from the same volume meets all the criteria except for casting Charm Person as a spell or spell-like ability. Even meets the caster level requirements otherwise.

Interestingly, on a quick survey none of the SRD fey creatures such as pixies, spirtes, etc. seem to qualify for this class despite the enchantment themes of such creatures.

Laughing Dog
2022-05-12, 10:57 PM
From The Monster Manual, all of these qualify for War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook):
Angel, Planetar; Angel, Solar; Athach; Behir; Demon, Balor; Demon, Bebilith; Demon, Glabrezu; Demon, Hezrou; Demon, Nalfeshnee; Demon, Vrock; Horned Devil; Ice Devil; Pit Fiend; Adult Green Dragon; Very Old Red Dragon; Dragon Turtle; Earth and Water Elementals of size Large+; Giants, as noted earlier; Gray Render; Hill Giant Dire Wereboar; Nightmare, Cauchemar; Nightwalker; Purple Worm; Noble Salamander; Green Slaad; Death Slaad; Androsphinx; Hieracosphinx; Tarrasque; Titan; Elder Tojanida; Elder Xorn.

Saintheart
2022-05-13, 03:57 AM
Qualifies: A Zombie (SRD template) of any monster with 6+ Hit Dice into Tomb Warden (Libris Mortis)

Zombies get Toughness. Zombie BAB is half the base creature's HD (thus, +3 for a 6HD creature). A Zombie's Will save is half the base creature's HD+2 (thus, +5 for a 6HD creature). Zombies change the creature type to Undead. Zombies are neutral evil, a nonchaotic alignment. These are all the prerequisites for the Tomb Warden.

Tomb Wardens have a prereq of Special: Tomb Warden must dedicate itself to protection of a tomb, graveyard, or resting place of the dead. This is arguably impossible since a zombie has no INT score, but it faithfully follows whatever order is given to it ... and therefore by its actions dedicates itself to protection of a tomb if that's the instruction from its creator.

Therefore, Zombies of 6 HD+ creatures qualify automatically for Tomb Warden. And it's not that bad as a short, 3 level prestige class for a low-end, fixed-position undead: full BAB, turn immunity, knows where all intruders in the tomb are, gets a +1 to attack, damage rolls.

EDIT: Other alternatives - the Nether Creature template from Dragon #297 grants Dodge, Mobility, and Toughness (while still turning the creature undead.) Another easy-bake way to qualify.

Gorthawar
2022-05-13, 04:39 AM
Close: Bear Warrior requires BaB+7, power attack and rage or frenzy ability.

A Barbazu has Bab +6, power attack and battle frenzy which is described as similar to a barbarians rage. Advancing it by one HD will raise BaB to +7 and therefore qualify.

I wonder if there is an option to keep the beard.

Edit:
Also unsurprisingly Doppelganger qualifies for Warshaper as it only requires BaB+4 and the ability to change shape. I think there will be quite a few monsters that fit those requirements (gold dragons for example).

Saintheart
2022-05-13, 04:53 AM
Edit:
Also unsurprisingly Doppelganger qualifies for Warshaper as it only requires BaB+4 and the ability to change shape. I think there will be quite a few monsters that fit those requirements (gold dragons for example).

Lot of stuff with the Lycanthrope template out there...

Saintheart
2022-05-13, 10:06 AM
Qualifies: Night Hag (SRD) (CR 9) into Force Missile Mage (Dragon Compendium, Dragon #328.)

It has enough Concentration and Spellcraft ranks, and per p. 76 of Complete Arcane, a spell-like ability is sufficient for the requirement of casting Magic Missile. Night Hags get Magic Missile as a spell-like ability (CL 8) at will. And it has Combat Casting.

Night Hags don't get any native spellcasting, though, so the class features would presumably have to apply to the spell-like ability.


Qualifies: Succubus (SRD) (CR 7) into Assassin (SRD).

Has the all-important Disguise skill ranks and sufficient Hide and Move Silently. Qualifies.

Not a massive amount of synergy, though; INT's a smidge too low to cast the full range of Assassin spells, and while the immunity to poison is handy, there's not a lot in the monster that actually makes it good at being the Predator.

Saintheart
2022-05-14, 01:12 AM
Qualifies: If Advanced to 9 HD -- Spectral Lyrist (Libris Mortis) into Dirgesinger (Libris Mortis).

The default Spectral Lyrist is missing the Requiem feat and the 4 Knowledge (Religion) ranks needed to qualify for Dirgesinger. It otherwise has the right alignment and specifically has bardic music abilities as (Sp) "that function identically" to the Fascinate and Suggestion bardic class features of the same name. Under Masters of the Wild, that's enough to qualify for bardic music.

Spectral Lyrists can, however, be advanced under their statblock to a maximum of 12 HD. We don't need to go that far, but adding a further 3 HD - from 6 HD to 9 HD - then gives them another feat slot. This can then be filled with Requiem, for which they qualify outright. In the increased HD, they also gain enough skill points to take 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) even if they have to go cross-class to do so. Lastly, because it's 3 HD added and not four, the Spectral Lyrist's CR doesn't increase under this advancement, remaining at CR 4.

Dirgesinger turns the Spectral Lyrist into a minor buffer character for undead encounters - it adds turn resistance to any undead in the area - and also does an anti-Inspire Courage, debuffing attack and Will saves by 2.


Qualifies: If Advanced to 16 HD -- Elemental Weird (Ice Weird, Snow Weird) (Frostburn) into Blood Magus (Complete Arcane).

The only thing these elemental casters lack on Blood Magus' prerequisites is Toughness. 1 HD brings the total ECL to 16 and therefore provides the feat slot needed for the feat to be taken. Ice and Snow Weirds are CR 15.

Blood Magus has a Special prerequisite that the character has to have been killed and then "returned to life". Elementals can't be raised or resurrected, but can be wished or true-resurrected thus being "restored to life", so while it takes a somewhat uniqie situation, it can be done.

AvatarVecna
2022-05-14, 01:40 AM
Summoning Ooze

Almost: Alienist
Lacks the K/Planes ranks required. As an intelligent creature, peaceful contact with an alienist/pseudonatural creature is feasible. It's hard to recommend more than a single level since Alienist sucks, but if you want an ooze summoning eldeitch horrors, all you need to do is shuffle some skill points. Might need a big ooze to get around cross class skill caps.

Edit: Any monster with 5+ HD can theoretically enter Survivor. A single level for +2 on saves and ambush Immunity is easily worth it. Lvl 2 for another +1 to Saves and evasion might be worth it if you've got reason to believe you'll get AoE'd.

EDIT 2: I know this probably isn't super-helpful since I'm not even suggesting any specific combo, but...dragons. Just, dragons. Dragons have an excellent chassis and lots of HD. Their feats and skills are de facto unassigned, with vague general guidelines for what to assign them to. They even get spellcasting, potentially from two of the best lists in the game. I would imagine that an older dragon could qualify for just about any PrC with just race stuff if they put their mind to it.

EDIT 3:

Mind Flayer can go straight into Illithid Savant, surprise surprise. Same for Beholder straight into Beholder Mage.

AvatarVecna
2022-05-14, 02:05 AM
Lilitu

Almost: Maiden Of Pain
The only prereq here that definitely requires a mechanical change is the feat (Violate Spell), so you'd need to swap a feat for that. But if you do, ooooo what a combo. An extra domain, almost full cleric spell progression, and you can deliver melee touch spells with a whip for extra reach. Thematically appropriate as well as mechanically effective. It's not quite full cleric spell progression, but it's pretty close.

Saintheart
2022-05-14, 03:08 AM
Close: Hobgoblin Warcaster (Monster Manual V) into Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror).

Frustratingly close. This thing is a fourth level hobgoblin Wizard at CR 4. It meets all but one of Dread Witch's criteria, right down to having and casting Cause Fear and Scare from its spellbook. But it's short by 2 on the base Will save, because the Warcaster's Will save is propped up by Iron Will.

It adds some nice abilities at this CR: Spell Resistance 14, temporary hitpoints and a +2 to attack rolls if he saves against a spell, and outright fiats the Warcaster as casting as a 4th level Wizard. Also gets Battle Magic Tactics which might be kind of useful if you have a massed group of casters. Can't advance by HD, it advances by character class.

Dread Witch has the Special prerequisite of having failed a Will save against fear sometime, which given how Warcasters are made seems pretty likely.

Saintheart
2022-05-15, 03:19 AM
I think for sanity I might start concentrating on individual PrCs rather than randomly throwing monsters in here other than when I'm interested. Anyway!

As A.V points out, beholders can qualify for Beholder Mage.

How about beholders' cultists, though, the Ocular Adept (FRCS)?
- Monstrous Humanoid or Humanoid
- Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil
- Base save Fort +4
- 8 ranks in Concentration
- Endurance

There's only two monsters I can find, screening for Humanoids or Monstrous Humanoids. Two templates relevantly switch creature type to Monstrous Humanoid -- Tauric Creature (MM 2) and Incarnate Construct (SS) -- which theoretically increases the range of possibilities to include any Medium-size or Large corporeal animal, beast, or vermin with at least four legs, and any humanoid-ish construct, but I suspect finding animals, magical beasts, vermin, or human-ish constructs with 8 ranks in Concentration before the template will be a needle in a haystack exercise.

Anyway:

Close: Abeil Queen (Monster Manual II) (CR 12). Has Concentration ranks, Fort save, it's a Monstrous Humanoid, and its Fort save is +4. It's even 'usually lawful', thus matching the LE or NE alignment. It only lacks Endurance. We can't HD-advance our way out of it, Queens advance by character class.

Abeil Queens cast as 16th level druids, and this adds some low-end cleric spellcasting and a few rays. And allows you to put a standing Dad joke into battle, because you'll have created a Bee-holder Cultist.

If Advanced to 12 HD, Close: Kopru (Monster Manual II) (CR 6 originally, CR 7 if advanced). Kopru only come with 8 HD and somewhat unusually have a massive +11 in Concentration even allowing for stat bonuses, but they're missing Endurance and they have a weak Fort +2. Advancing them to the absolute limit their statblocks allow - 12 HD - gives them another feat slot to take Endurance and raises their base Fort save to +4. But none of that helps with their alignment, which is always chaotic evil and incompatible with Ocular Adept's Lawful or Neutral Evil.

This'd be pretty unusual given Kopru are meant for aquatic campaigns.

Uncle Pine
2022-05-15, 04:31 AM
Guiding principles/rules:

How are we feeling about adding a flaw to a monster just to get the only feat it's lacking to qualify for a certain prestige class? I know it's kinda cheap, but it sounds right up the alley of a DM who just wants to give Shadow Weave Magic to their spellcasting monster. Or at least closer to the mindset than advancing the creature by 3 whole levels to grab the feat.

In a somewhat related addition, I'd like to echo AvatarVecna on the topic of dragons: how are we feeling about those? The "stock" d&d true dragons (even the DWK kind) are mostly lacking stock stats, or rather they're missing each and every customizable part that enable this whole thought exercise. Should dragons be allowed as entries? Can we just default to "X-color dragon of Y age: qualifies for Z" whenever there's no obvious path to acquire a bunch of niche feats and/or skills to qualify for a given PrC?

Saintheart
2022-05-15, 05:02 AM
How are we feeling about adding a flaw to a monster just to get the only feat it's lacking to qualify for a certain prestige class? I know it's kinda cheap, but it sounds right up the alley of a DM who just wants to give Shadow Weave Magic to their spellcasting monster. Or at least closer to the mindset than advancing the creature by 3 whole levels to grab the feat.

In a somewhat related addition, I'd like to echo AvatarVecna on the topic of dragons: how are we feeling about those? The "stock" d&d true dragons (even the DWK kind) are mostly lacking stock stats, or rather they're missing each and every customizable part that enable this whole thought exercise. Should dragons be allowed as entries? Can we just default to "X-color dragon of Y age: qualifies for Z" whenever there's no obvious path to acquire a bunch of niche feats and/or skills to qualify for a given PrC?

I actually think both of those might be worth a little paragraph of advice.

On flaws, I'll put something in the top post saying "Hello, long-suffering DM, if you're only missing one feat, then a very easy way to qualify is by taking a flaw to give yourself the feat slot you need. This won't help you out with creatures that are lacking skill ranks, but remember if it's just a feat missing, this is your go-to pinch of yeast to make the bread rise." Happy to hear suggestions pointed out in the 'build' posts, though, that's totally yours! The whole point of the 'Close' category is to point out to a DM that it's just one thing that's missing, whether skills, or alignment, or feat, or what - it might be a bit beyond the scope of the thread to point out to DMs all the ways they could pull in a missing prerequisite, but we can certainly point people at some obvious ideas.

On dragons, I'm happy to take entries if people are inspired and enthusiastic, and we'll see how it goes! But I had in mind to throw in a separate paragraph of advice which will be "Look, dragons are awesome at qualifying for almost anything they want, given their feats and skill selections are almost explicitly silly putty and they can cast more or less whatever the heck they want. Don't think that the omission of dragons from entries means they can't qualify; quite the contrary, for the slightly-other-than-totally-lazy DM they likely can, easily. If you have a prestige class in mind, odds are pretty strong that a dragon can finagle its way into it. Enjoy, or make suggestions anyway."


And can I say thanks to everyone who's already contributed - the input is greatly appreciated.

redking
2022-05-15, 05:27 AM
Close: Hobgoblin Warcaster (Monster Manual V) into Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror).

Frustratingly close. This thing is a fourth level hobgoblin Wizard at CR 4. It meets all but one of Dread Witch's criteria, right down to having and casting Cause Fear and Scare from its spellbook. But it's short by 2 on the base Will save, because the Warcaster's Will save is propped up by Iron Will.

Even if the Warcaster could qualify right off the bat, note that without a level in Wizard, Dread Witch could not progress Wizard casting for the Warcaster. One level of Wizard should do the trick.

That goes for all of the spellcasting creatures that do not actually have levels in their spellcasting base class.

AvatarVecna
2022-05-15, 08:35 PM
I actually think both of those might be worth a little paragraph of advice.

On flaws, I'll put something in the top post saying "Hello, long-suffering DM, if you're only missing one feat, then a very easy way to qualify is by taking a flaw to give yourself the feat slot you need. This won't help you out with creatures that are lacking skill ranks, but remember if it's just a feat missing, this is your go-to pinch of yeast to make the bread rise." Happy to hear suggestions pointed out in the 'build' posts, though, that's totally yours! The whole point of the 'Close' category is to point out to a DM that it's just one thing that's missing, whether skills, or alignment, or feat, or what - it might be a bit beyond the scope of the thread to point out to DMs all the ways they could pull in a missing prerequisite, but we can certainly point people at some obvious ideas.

It might be able to help with skills actually. There's a feat in Complete Adventurer called "Open Minded" that gives 5 skill points, and there's a feat in BoED called "Nymph's Kiss" that gives you an extra skill point per HD. The latter is hard to qualify for (alignment reasons), but the former is open to anybody and can be taken multiple times IIRC. A monster who's only missing some ranks in a skill could get 10 skill points into whatever they're missing. It won't be enough a lot of the time, since these will likely be cross-class skill ranks being purchased, but like...

One thing I was looking at is Animal Lord, which has very easy requirements except for Handle Animal 4 ranks and K/Nature 2 ranks. Very few monsters have both of those as well as a particular third skill/feat combo. I'm not sure Animal Lord is worth taking on basically anybody, but it's neat fluff, and I bet that with flaws for Open Minded (or just the feat in the Feat Combo mentioned), lots of things could qualify.

Saintheart
2022-05-15, 09:56 PM
It might be able to help with skills actually. There's a feat in Complete Adventurer called "Open Minded" that gives 5 skill points, and there's a feat in BoED called "Nymph's Kiss" that gives you an extra skill point per HD. The latter is hard to qualify for (alignment reasons), but the former is open to anybody and can be taken multiple times IIRC. A monster who's only missing some ranks in a skill could get 10 skill points into whatever they're missing. It won't be enough a lot of the time, since these will likely be cross-class skill ranks being purchased, but like...

One thing I was looking at is Animal Lord, which has very easy requirements except for Handle Animal 4 ranks and K/Nature 2 ranks. Very few monsters have both of those as well as a particular third skill/feat combo. I'm not sure Animal Lord is worth taking on basically anybody, but it's neat fluff, and I bet that with flaws for Open Minded (or just the feat in the Feat Combo mentioned), lots of things could qualify.

Yep, the more I think about it, I think that material's going to be useful. Rather than me blurring the categories by saying something qualifies because it's advanced, I might make strict entries to the thread along the following lines:

<Prestige Class Name>

Monsters that qualify: (Outright, nothing else needed).

Monsters that are Close:
- Here's what's missing (Down to 1 or maximum 2 prerequisites)
- Simple Suggestions for qualifying (flaw feat, advance monster, single class level, template)


The concern I had is a creep in thread scope since I'd like to hold to simple solutions for DMs to qualify monsters. Sure lots of different monsters can probably be qualified with three or four class levels or big, but it immediately starts to get overly complicated, and the DM starts to say "Well why would I bother trying to use a monster, I'll just do straight class levels since I'm going to be doing half the work anyway." And I do say that knowing advancing a monster is not simple in itself.

The other thing is that if a creature can be said to be "Close" because taking a class level in something solves its missing feat or class feature problem, it makes the range of qualifying monsters a lot larger. As a not-very-good example, the Abolisher PrC from Lords of Madness has the following prereqs:

Alignment: Any nonchaotic
Skills: Knowledge (dungeoneering) 4 ranks , Knowledge (nature) 9 ranks
Feats: Track
Type: Cannot be an aberration
Special: Wild empathy class feature


For argument's sake, if we leave aside the Knowledge rank prerequisite, pretty much any not-insane, not-Aberration monster can take the Abolisher class if it has a single level in Ranger.

Not that I'm that worried about it, just pointing out the number of monsters that can potentially qualify for things. Maybe I'll just seek to identify monsters that can qualify with a single class level in a given class, and focus heavily on one prestige class at a time. That said - throw suggestions in wherever, guys, I'll get around to them sooner or later :)

Saintheart
2022-05-15, 10:36 PM
Abolisher (Lords of Madness)

Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any nonchaotic
Skills: Knowledge (dungeoneering) 4 ranks , Knowledge (nature) 9 ranks
Feats: Track
Type: Cannot be an aberration
Special: Wild empathy class feature

Monsters who qualify: None.

Monsters who are close:


Troll Hunter (SRD). (CR 11)
Missing:
- Needs 3 more ranks in Knowledge (Nature)

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Open Minded feat (Complete Adventurer) to gain 5 skill ranks instantly, picked up via a flaw.

Note:
Troll Hunters are "usually" Chaotic Evil.



Dryad (SRD). (CR 3)
Missing:
- Needs 4 ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (a cross-class skill)
- Needs Track

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Single level in Ranger grants Track, 6+INT skill points and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) as class skill

Note:
Dryads are "usually" Chaotic Good.

Saintheart
2022-05-16, 02:33 AM
Abjurant Champion (Complete Arcane)

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Combat Casting
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells, including at least one abjuration spell.
Special: Must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.


Monsters who qualify:

SRD: Efreeti (CR 8), Rakshasha (CR 10), Uvuudaum (CR 27)
Monster Manual 2: Amnizu (CR 7)
Book of Exalted Deeds: Ursinal (CR 12), Hollyphant (CR 8),

Notes:
- Complete Arcane allows qualification via possession of appropriate SLAs. Some of these creatures meet prerequisites via an Abjuration SLA.
- Abjurant Champion does not advance SLAs explicitly. Levels in casting classes may be warranted.
- Abjurant Champion does not advance inherent spellcasting (e.g. the Rakshasha). A level in the appropriate caster class for the creature resolves this problem.




Monsters who are close:


Aboleth Mage (SRD), Bone Naga (Monster Manual II) (CR 11), Dark Naga (SRD) (CR 8), Demilich (SRD) (CR 29), Guardian Naga (SRD) (CR 10), Gynosphinx (SRD) (CR 8), Hebi-No-Onna (Oriental Adventures) (CR 17), Ki-Rin (Oriental Adventures) (CR 18), Marut (SRD) (CR 15), Mind Flayer Sorcerer (SRD) (CR 17), Psurlon (Giant, Elder) Monster Manual 2) (CR 9), Spirit Naga (SRD) (CR 9), Water Naga (SRD) (CR 7), Worm that Walks (SRD) (CR 26)
Chaoswyrd (CR 12) (Dragon #287)

Missing:
- Proficiency with one martial weapon

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, picked up via a flaw.
- Monstrous Humanoids, Fey, human-shaped Elementals, and Undead are proficient with whatever weapons are mentioned in their statblock. Check whether the creature's weapon is a martial weapon.
- Giants and Outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons.
- The Unholy Scion template (Heroes of Horror) is applicable to any animal or humanoid and changes the creature type to Outsider.

Note:
- Abjurant Champion does not advance inherent spellcasting. A level in the appropriate caster class for the creature resolves this problem.
- Complete Arcane allows qualification via possession of appropriate SLAs. Some of these creatures meet prerequisites via an Abjuration SLA.
- Abjurant Champion does not improve SLAs explicitly. May need adaptation if the creature qualifies via SLA but has no spellcasting capacity.
- Worm that Walks casts any spell it knew while it was alive. Can easily include Abjuration arcane spell of 1st level or more.



Arcanaloth (Monster Manual 2) (CR 17), Immoth (Monster Manual 2) (CR 9)


Missing:
- Combat Casting.

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Flaw feat to pick up Combat Casting.

Note:
- Arcanaloth has no 'typical spells' named in its casting capacity, but has Spell Focus (Abjuration) as a specific feat.
- Immoth has no 'typical spells' named in casting capacity.
- Outsiders have proficiency with all martial weapons.
- Abjurant Champion does not advance SLAs explicitly. Levels in casting classes (esp. Wizard or Sorcerer) may be warranted.


Lamia Noble (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) (CR 11)

Missing:
- One Abjuration spell.

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Recast spell selection.
- Flaw feat for Extra Spell.

Note:
- Abjurant Champion does not advance inherent spellcasting. A level in the appropriate caster class for the creature resolves this problem.


Obtaining BAB +5

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Any Aberration, Animal, Construct, Elemental, Giant, Humanoid, Ooze, Plant, or Vermin with 7+ Hit Dice has BAB +5.
- Any Dragon, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Outsider with 5+ Hit Dice has BAB +5.
- Any Fey or Undead with 10+ Hit Dice has BAB +5.

Gorthawar
2022-05-16, 04:11 AM
Nymph qualifies for Combat Medic which requires Combat Casting, Dodge, access to cure light wounds, concentration 4 ranks and heal 8 ranks.

Saintheart
2022-05-16, 09:51 AM
Acolyte of the Ego (Tome of Magic)

Prerequisites:
Skills: Truespeak 9 ranks
Type: Humanoid
Languages: Must speak at least four languages


Monsters who qualify:
None.

Monsters who are close:


Word Archon (Tome of Magic) (CR 9), Logokron Demon (Tome of Magic) (CR 14), Loquasphinx (Tome of Magic) (CR 8), Painspeaker (Tome of Magic) (CR 4)

Missing:
- Humanoid type.

Suggestions for qualifying:
- It's a truenaming prestige class, first suggestion is to qualify for something else.
- Sigh. The Human Heritage feat might apply in the case of the Painspeaker, because it's described as once being a "humanoid", but you're stretchingto do this. Take a flaw feat or advance the creature to 9HD from its 6HD original to pick up the feat slot.

Saintheart
2022-05-16, 10:06 AM
Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296)

Prerequisites:
Alignment: any lawful
Tumble 8 ranks
Jump 8 ranks
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Stunning Fist
Special: All 10 levels have to be taken.


Monsters who qualify:
None

Monsters who are close:


Banshrae (Monster Manual 5) (CR 8)

Missing:
- Iron Will

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Flaw feat.
- Visit Otyugh Hole.

Note:
- Banshrae are "usually" CE.


Banshee (Monster Manual 2) (CR 17), Jahi (Monster Manual 2)), (CR 16), Witchknife Captain (Monster Manual 3) (CR 7)

Missing:
- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
- 6 ranks Jump (Class skill)

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Take level in monk
- Advance by HD to a multiple of 3, use the feat slot that comes with it, use the skill points to obtain ranks in Jump, and take a flaw to give another feat slot

Note:
- Banshees are "usually" neutral evil


Pit Fiend (CR 20) (SRD), Gerivar (Monster Manual 3) (CR 19)

Missing:
- Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Two flaw feats
- Advance to multiple of 3HD, use feat slot and flaw feat


Astral Stalker (Monster Manual 3) (CR 12), Guulvorg (Monster Manual 5) (CR 13)

Missing:
- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
- Tumble 8 ranks (Skill is cross-class)

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Level in monk supplies feats plus Tumble class skill
- Flaw feat to obtain Open Mind and sufficient skill points.

Note:
- Guulvorg are "usually" Neutral Evil.


Lifeleech Otyugh (Monster Manual 3) (CR 8)

Missing:
- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
- Tumble 8 ranks, Jump 4 ranks (Tumble is cross-class, Jump is a class skill)

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Level in monk supplies feats plus Tumble class skill
- Flaw feat to obtain Open Mind and sufficient skill points.

Note:
- Lifeleech Otyughs are "usually" neutral evil


Hobgoblin Spellscourge (Monster Manual 5) (CR 5)

Missing:
- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
- 2 ranks Tumble, 2 ranks Jump (Class skills)

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Level in monk supplies skill ranks and both feats.


Kuo-Toa Monitor (Monster Manual 5) (CR 6)

Missing:
- Iron Will
- Jump 6 ranks (class skill)

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Flaw feats for Iron Will and/or Open Mind.
- Visit Otyugh Hole.
- Level in Monk to supply last 6 ranks in Jump

Raxxius
2022-05-16, 10:07 AM
Even if the Warcaster could qualify right off the bat, note that without a level in Wizard, Dread Witch could not progress Wizard casting for the Warcaster. One level of Wizard should do the trick.

That goes for all of the spellcasting creatures that do not actually have levels in their spellcasting base class.

The warcaster (and warsoul) both specify that only Wizard is an associated class for the warcaster and warsoul.

I feel that would rule out prestige classes of any description in a strict RAW perspective.

liquidformat
2022-05-16, 10:20 AM
I think another way to look at this is what classes are rather easy to enter without having any specific base class.

Animal Lord, Blackguard, Divine Crusader, Ghost-faced Killer, and Holy Liberator are all good examples that require a feat or a couple skill points that aren't commonly found on most monsters but besides that are very easily accessible to most monsters straight out of the gate.

redking
2022-05-16, 10:23 AM
The warcaster (and warsoul) both specify that only Wizard is an associated class for the warcaster and warsoul.

I feel that would rule out prestige classes of any description in a strict RAW perspective.

Any innate spellcaster, such as a dragon, is in the same situation. They need to take a single level of their associated class at least so they can get the base class progression structure, then they can take prestige classes that advance spellcasting if they qualify. So in the case of the Warcaster, it needs to take a level of Wizard or it won't advance spellcasting even if it qualifies for a PrC that advances spellcasting.

The spellcasting progression PrCs are a special case.

Raxxius
2022-05-16, 11:45 AM
Any innate spellcaster, such as a dragon, is in the same situation. They need to take a single level of their associated class at least so they can get the base class progression structure, then they can take prestige classes that advance spellcasting if they qualify. So in the case of the Warcaster, it needs to take a level of Wizard or it won't advance spellcasting even if it qualifies for a PrC that advances spellcasting.

The spellcasting progression PrCs are a special case.

Sorry I wasn't being clear.

Warcaster and Warsoul both imply that they progress by taking Wizard levels only, ie no prestige class, no class that promotes Wizard casting levels, but the Wizard class only.

Saintheart
2022-05-16, 09:49 PM
Been leafing through Monster Manual 3 for candidates for Acolyte of the Fist.

They might as well have named it "The Book of Iron Will". Feels like every damn creature with an INT score had to have their mental saves propped up with feats.

Still looking for any monster that actually got Stunning Fist. Even the damn Armand Warden, a 4th level Monk went down the Improved Grapple line.

So far, through SRD+MM 1+MM 2+MM 3+Oriental Adventures, I've counted precisely one monster that's got Improved Unarmed Strike: the Firbolg in MM 2. Although he's out of contention even for close Acolyte of the Fist because he lacks literally everything else: no Iron Will, no Stunning Fist, not one rank in Tumble or Jump. I think it'd take two flaw feats and two levels in Rogue, or just two levels in Feat Rogue, to actually qualify him.

Can I also add thanks, 20 years too late, to WOTC for getting around to including BAB scores in the MM 3 after omitting them in the MM 2? I didn't realise how annoying it was to try and do the calculations in my head.

EDIT: aaaaand I spoke too soon. Banshrae, MM V. Aside from alignment ("Usually" CE) and lack of Iron Will, it has all that stuff.

Saintheart
2022-05-16, 11:38 PM
Acolyte of the Skin (Complete Arcane)

Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 6 ranks
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 5th.
Special: Must have made peaceful contact with a summoned evil outsider.
Special: Must undergo the Ritual of Bonding.


Monsters who qualify:


Aboleth Mage (SRD) (CR 17), Abeil Queen (Monster Manual 2) (CR 12), Adaru Demon (Monster Manual 5) (CR 10), Ak'chazar Rakshasha (Monster Manual 3) (CR 15), Amnizu (Monster Manual 2) (CR 7), Cerebrilith (SRD) (CR 10), Chichimec (SRD) (CR 21), Concordant Killer (Monster Manual 4) (CR 19), Deathdrinker Demon (Monster Manual 4) (CR 18), Eldritch Giant (Monster Manual 3) (CR 15), Glimmerskin (Monster Manual 2) (CR 8), Grimweird (Monster Manual 3) (CR 11), Gulthir Demon (Monster Manual 5) (CR 6), Illurien (Monster Manual 5) (CR 15), Justicator (Monster Manual 3) (CR 13), Kelvezu (Monster Manual 2) (CR 18), Marrash (Monster Manual 2) (CR 5), Madcrafter of Thoon (Monster Manual 5) (CR 10), Mercane (ELH) (CR 5), Mezzoloth Yugoloth (Monster Manual 3) (CR 6), Mind Flayer Sorcerer (Monster Manual 3.5) (CR 17), Nycaloth Yugoloth (Monster Manual 3) (CR 10), (Pit Fiend (SRD) (CR 20), Queen of Chaos (SRD) (CR 24), Remmanon (Monster Manual 5) (CR 15), Shadow Flayer (Monster Manual 5) (CR 8), Sorrowsworn Demon (Monster Manual 3) (CR 17), Spell Weaver (Monster Manual 2) (CR 10), Spirrax (Monster Manual 5) (CR 18), Taunting Haunt (Monster Manual 5) (CR 4), Thoon Disciple (Monster Manual 5) (CR 10), Thoon Elder Brain (Monster Manual 5) (CR 15), Ultroloth Yugoloth (Monster Manual 3) (CR 13), Vaporighu (Monster Manual 2) (CR 9), Vitreous Drinker (Monster Manual 4) (CR 11)

Note:
- Prestige Classes do not explicitly advance SLAs.
- Prestige Classes don't advance inherent spellcasting. A level in the appropriate class for the creature resolves the problem.
- Note Special prerequisites, not that they're hard to achieve for this group of reprobates.
- ... The Taunting Haunt has Knowledge (all) ...

Monsters who are close:


Lumi Crusader (Monster Manual 3) (CR 8)

Missing:
- 1 rank Knowledge (The Planes)

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Flaw feat for Open Mind

Note:
- May be implausible for Lumi Crusader to have peaceful contact with a summoned evil outsider, even allowing for Lawful Neutral alignment


Drow Priestess (Monster Manual 4) (CR 9), GISH! (Monster Manual 4) (CR 8), Orc Plague Speaker (Monster Manual 4) (CR 7)
Missing:
- 4 ranks Knowledge (The Planes)

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Flaw feat for Open Mind


Half-Fiend Gnoll Warlock (Monster Manual 4) (CR 6),
Missing:
- 4 ranks Knowledge (The Planes)
- CL 4, not 5th.

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Flaw feat for Open Mind
- One level in Warlock

Tzardok
2022-05-17, 02:06 AM
Can I also add thanks, 20 years too late, to WOTC for getting around to including BAB scores in the MM 3 after omitting them in the MM 2? I didn't realise how annoying it was to try and do the calculations in my head.


MM 2 doesn't include BAB because it's 3.0, and 3.0 blocks simply didn't include that. It's one of the 3.5 improvements.

Saintheart
2022-05-17, 02:13 AM
MM 2 doesn't include BAB because it's 3.0, and 3.0 blocks simply didn't include that. It's one of the 3.5 improvements.

"Improvements"


Appreciate the catch nonetheless :)

Tzardok
2022-05-17, 02:19 AM
"Improvements"


Appreciate the catch nonetheless :)

Of course improvements; you are happy about it, aren't you?

Saintheart
2022-05-17, 02:27 AM
Of course improvements; you are happy about it, aren't you?

Don't mind me, I'm just an old critfishing grognard who's still annoyed they kept keen and Improved Critical from stacking, grumble grumble damn kids get off my lawn...

SimonMoon6
2022-05-17, 11:28 AM
I've been looking at something like this for Pathfinder (where there are built in rules for playing as any monster, using CR as what 3.x would call ECL). I know this is a 3.5 thread, but maybe somebody would consider this useful. (And unfortunately, I can't back-port this into 3.5 as I can't find a 3.5 version of the lamia noble.)

Anyway, here goes:

Pathfinder's Lamia Matriarch can almost become an Eldritch Knight.

The idea is that a lamia matriarch is already a good melee combatant and casts as a sorcerer (with access to the cleric list as well). So, she's a perfect gish. Why not let her advance as both a fighter and a spellcaster? Why not have her become an Eldritch Knight?

The one problem is the all martial weapons proficiency requirement which she does not have. So, it would take a dip in another class to get that proficiency with all martial weapons. But the base classes that could give her every martial weapon proficiency are boring.

So, first I thought about prestige classes that could be taken to get that weapon proficiency. Most of these aren't great ideas though. (1) There's Noble Scion... easy enough to enter and thematically reasonable, but as a dip, it's terrible. You get 750 gp, +1 Will, and the weapon proficiency but not much else. Even pure fighter seems more appealing. (2) The Sentinel prestige class could kind of work, but it requires worshiping a deity which is really not a lamia matriarch thing (they hate deities because of the curse put upon their race) though an individual could be different. Also, making this work with the lamia noble's choice of weapon become really limiting as far as deity choices go. So, bleah. (3) Pain Taster exists but it requires too many feats to enter. Even with changing the lamia matriarch's feats up, these are not good feats to take, so I'll pass on this. (4) Golden Legionnaire requires armor proficiencies that would require feats she doesn't have. (5) Low Templar is a poor fit since it involves Mounted Combat.

So, then I said, okay forget prestige classes. It's better to take a base class even if it's just Bloodrager or Swashbuckler.

But then I found some other base classes that would work perfectly. These come from the Path of War books. I made all sorts of plans with these, assuming they were first party since they were on the d20pfsrd website... but then I realize they were by Dreamscarred Press, so they were actually 3rd party. But if 3rd party stuff is allowed, these are great.

I was looking at Stalker at first but then I found Warlord and realized it was a perfect class for a lamia matriarch to dip into. She would get a variety of miscellaneous combat bonuses some based on CHA which she has in spades. It's perfect, both thematically and game-mechanically. And there's even a Path of War version of the Eldritch Knight prestige class that she could enter instead (or in addition to) Eldritch Knight.

But putting that aside, there's another option. Templates. But I don't want to spent more than +1 CR (or +1 LA in other words) to get martial weapon proficiencies, since dipping into Fighter is always an option. The only template that appealed to me even a little was the Shadow Creature template. She gets the weapon proficiencies and doesn't spend more than +1 CR getting them... but now she's a very different kind of creature really. Bleah.

(I also like the idea of taking the half-marilith template and applying it to a lamia matriarch, but it's not really the most efficient thing to do nor is it going in the direction that I want the character to go in.)

Saintheart
2022-05-17, 12:07 PM
I've been looking at something like this for Pathfinder (where there are built in rules for playing as any monster, using CR as what 3.x would call ECL). I know this is a 3.5 thread, but maybe somebody would consider this useful. (And unfortunately, I can't back-port this into 3.5 as I can't find a 3.5 version of the lamia noble.)

Page 206, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

But then for 3.5 it's actually made very easy. Under 3.5, Lamia Nobles are Monstrous Humanoids, who are deemed proficient with any weapon mentioned in their statblock. Lamia Nobles have composite shortbows, which luckily are martial weapons.


... and actually that means the Lamia Noble is close to qualifying for Abjurant Champion, because on a second look it's got Combat Casting but doesn't have an Abjuration spell known. Huh. One more to add.

Automatic proficiency with all martial weapons doesn't come easy under 3.5 outside Fighter or a martial class. It takes the Outsider type, or a capstone PrC like Monk 20, or a spell like Lesser Holy Transformation which has to then be persisted.

nedz
2022-05-17, 04:42 PM
Janni into Horizon Walker — you just need to change the level 1 feat to Educated, or similar.

Saintheart
2022-05-17, 11:18 PM
Aerial Avenger (Dragon #319)

Prerequisites:
Base Reflex Save: +3
Skills: Tumble 5 ranks
Feats: Dodge, Mobility
Special: Must have fly speed or ability to cast fly at least twice per day.

Monsters who qualify:

Banshee (Monster Manual 2) (CR 17), Ragewind (Monster Manual 2) (CR 19), Ruin Chanter (Monster Manual 5 (CR 14)


Monsters who are close:


SRD: Huge Air Elemental, Primal Air Elemental (CR 7, 35), Solar Angel (CR 23), Atropal (CR 30), Bralani (CR 6), Chichimec (CR 21), Couatl (CR 10), Djinni (CR 5), Dread Wraith (CR 11), Efreeti (CR 8), Erinyes (CR 8), Ha-Naga (CR 22), Janni (CR 4), Phane (CR 35), Pit Fiend (CR 20), Shadow of the Void (CR 26), Greater Shadow (CR 8), Shape of Fire (CR 26), Succubus (CR 7), Will o' Wisp (CR 6)
Monster Manual 2: Amnizu Devil (CR 7), Chaos Roc (CR 17), Cloaked Ape (CR 2), Cloud Ray (CR 16), Crimson Death (CR 11), Great Fihyr (CR 15), Desmodu Guard Bat (CR 3), Malebranche Devil (CR 9), Marrash (CR 5), Spirit of the Land (CR 23), Zovvut Demon (CR 9)
Monster Manual 3: Advanced Deathshrieker (CR 19), Geriviar (CR 19), Nycaloth (CR 10), Petal (CR 1)
Monster Manual 4:) Cyclonic Ravager (CR 15), Whisper Demon (CR 9),
Monster Manual 5: Frostwind Virago (CR 16), Hound of the Hunt (CR 18), Steelwing (CR 14), Tirbana Spawner (CR 5), ,



Missing:
- Dodge and/or Mobility; and/or
- Tumble ranks are less than or equal to 5; and/or
- No Tumble ranks and the skill is cross-class.

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Flaw feats to pick up Dodge, Mobility
- Flaw feat to pick up Open Mind to obtain Tumble ranks. May need 2 iterations of the feat if Tumble is cross-class to the monster.
- Nether Creature template (Dragon #297) can be applied to any living creature, adds Dodge, Mobility and Toughness for a +1 to CR, but changes type to undead.
- Vampire template (SRD) grants Dodge and arguably a fly speed via the alternate form.

Note:
- Nycaloths somehow have Mobility without having its prerequisite Dodge.


Any monster that meets the prerequisites except for having a Fly speed

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Animals, Giants, Humanoids, Monstrous humanoids, or Vermin Type: Apply the Winged Creature Template (Savage Species). Raises CR by 1.
- Large or Huge Animal, Beast, or Vermin Type: Apply the Chimeric Creature Template (Monster Manual 2). CR 9 or CR +1 of base creature, whichever is higher.


Any monster only missing a base Reflex +3 saving throw

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Any Animal, Dragon, Air Elemental, Fire Elemental, Fey, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Outsider with 3+ Hit Dice has a +3 Reflex base saving throw.
- Any Aberration, Giant, Plant, Undead, or Vermin with 9+ Hit Dice has a +3 Reflex base saving throw.


(Edits forthcoming...)

Kaleph
2022-05-18, 01:26 PM
The last version of the sharn (Anauroch - the empire of shades) qualifies for mystic theurge.

Metastachydium
2022-05-18, 02:09 PM
Permit me to reach for some low-hanging fruit here, namely
TACTICAL SOLDIERMH. Straying no farther than the MM, we find not one, but at least two statblocks that need not be altered in any way for the critter to autoqualify: the Vrock and the Ice Devil. If we can switch out feats, there are a lot more, especially among the outsiders, including (but not limited to) Angels (all) (as well as Monadic but not Movanic Devas) (one feat needs swapping out), the Barghest (it's missing one required feat, but that's Cleave so two swaps are needed) and all MM Genies (v. Barghest; DaosMoP and MaridsMoP, in the meantime have Cleave by default, so they only need Combat Reflexes which they do have the slots for).

MornShine
2022-05-19, 04:56 PM
Mindspy!
Very easy to qualify for.

Hobgoblin Warsoul qualifies outright (CR 8), Hobgoblin Warcaster qualifies if it gets detect thoughts in its spellbook (it alreadycasts 2nd-level spells as a wizard), I expect many many more.

Saintheart
2022-05-20, 03:30 AM
Aeromancer (Dragon #308)

Prerequisites:
Knowledge (Arcana) - 14 ranks
Knowledge (Nature) - 5 ranks
Feats: Any two metamagic feats
Special: Access to, and ability to cast the spells Gust of Wind and Control Weather.

Monsters who qualify:

Worm That Walks (SRD) (CR 26)

Note:
- Worm That Walks has no typical spells and can cast any spells it could while a living character.


Monsters who are close:


SRD: Aboleth Mage (CR 17), Neh-Thalggu (CR 26)
Monster Manual 2: Arcanaloth (CR 17), Mind Flayer Sorcerer (CR 17), Queen of Chaos (CR 24)
Monster Manual 3: Ak'chazar Rakshasha (CR 15)

Missing:
- 5 ranks Knowledge Nature and/or
- 2 Metamagic Feats

Suggestions for Qualifying:
- Flaw feats for Open Minded and metamagic.

Uncle Pine
2022-05-22, 10:36 AM
Close: Rakshasa, Ak'Chazar (MMIII) into Shadow Adept (Player's Guide to Faerun).

You'd think it should be easy to find any spellcasting monster with at least one metamagic feat - well, it's not: I couldn't find a single monster in the whole Monster Manual to have one metamagic feat.
Shadow Adept requires 8 ranks in both Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, Shadow Weave Magic and any one metamagic feat, a nongood alignment, and the ability to cast 3rd-level arcane or divine spells. Save for (unsurprisingly) the Shadow Weave Magic feat, the Ak'Chazar variant of rakshasa from MMIII checks all the boxes. It's a CR 15 creature, but it comes already rocking the "evil spellcaster" attire and it's only necessary to slap a single flaw on it to grab the missing feat for a very low effort qualification.

Qualifies: Half-fiend, half-black dragon tendriculos (SRD) into Divine Seeker (Player's Guide to Faerun).

Divine Seeker doesn't ask much: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks, Spot 5 ranks, a terrible feat in the form of Stealthy and a special Patron fluff prerequisite.
Despite being Huge, weighing three tons and a half and being described as attacking savagely, tendriculos are surprisingly Stealthy and sport Hide, Move Silently and Spot as class skills. With a total Intelligence score of 9 and 9 HD, this provides a half-fiend, half-black dragon tendriculos with 84 skill points which are well enough to satisfy all prerequisites for Divine Seeker (cross-class Knowledge skill included). The base templated creature ends up as a CR 10 creature. I imagine it could serve as a fine Divine Seeker of Malar or other evil nature deity.

Qualifies: Half-celestial, half-gold dragon dire tiger (SRD) into Divine Seeker (Player's Guide to Faerun).

Similar to the above entry, a dire tiger already has the Stealthy feat and the half-celestial and half-gold dragon templates give it access to 114 skill points (6 Int, 16 HD). These are plenty enough to meet the skill requirements for Divine Seeker (with Knowledge (religion) being once again the only cross-class skill). The base templated creature is a CR 13 creature and its Lawful Good (or Neutral) alignment can make it a palatable servant for a variety of gods in need of a nonhumanoid Divine Seeker.


As an honorary mention, one could also try to get Stealthy via lycanthropy (i.e. rat, dire bat, and rat swarm are all base animals that provide it as a bonus feat): the extra HD grant some minimal adjustment in regards to skill points allotment, which in theory can allow to finangle those pesky 3 ranks into Knowledge (religion) but I wasn't able to find humanoids nor giants that had already decent enough skill points to even get "Close" to qualifying. Locating an exceptionally stealthy and/or smart humanoid or giant with at least 3 HD of Medium, Large or Huge size is left as an excercise to the reader.


EDIT:
Qualifies: If advanced to 12 HD, Spell weaver (MMII) into Archmage (DMG).

It may seem like a daunting task to qualify as an Archmage: 15 ranks in both Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (two schools of magic) and the ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, as well as knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools. However, while a base 10 HD spell weaver has all of it almost covered advancing it by just a couple HD fixes it all:
- Spell weavers have 9 ranks in Knowledge Arcana and 13 ranks in Spellcraft. They're Int 18 monstrous humanoids, so 2 HD provide 12 skill points which are enough to up both skills to 15. Not to mention the Scry skill was removed in the 3.0-3.5 conversion, so they'd also get some extra spare skill points from that.
- Spell weavers natively have Spell Focus (Abjuration) and Spell Focus (Evocation). While normally pitiful choices, this means they get to qualify for Archmage by just picking Skill Focus (Spellcraft) as their 12th-HD feat.
- "A spell weaver casts spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than its Hit Dice. (That is, a spell weaver with 10 Hit Dice casts spells as a 12th-level sorcerer.)" Thus, a spell weaver with 12 Hit Dice has access to 7th-level arcane spells.
- "A spell weaver prefers combinations of spells that focus on attacks, defense, and transportation." - A "typical" list, however, is never provided. As such, an advanced spell weaver can simply select its six 5th-level or higher known spells from at least five different schools and satisfy even this last requirement.

Saintheart
2022-05-22, 11:00 PM
Qualifies: Half-fiend, half-black dragon tendriculos (SRD) into Divine Seeker (Player's Guide to Faerun).

Divine Seeker doesn't ask much: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks, Spot 5 ranks, a terrible feat in the form of Stealthy and a special Patron fluff prerequisite.
Despite being Huge, weighing three tons and a half and being described as attacking savagely, tendriculos are surprisingly Stealthy and sport Hide, Move Silently and Spot as class skills. With a total Intelligence score of 9 and 9 HD, this provides a half-fiend, half-black dragon tendriculos with 84 skill points which are well enough to satisfy all prerequisites for Divine Seeker (cross-class Knowledge skill included). The base templated creature ends up as a CR 10 creature. I imagine it could serve as a fine Divine Seeker of Malar or other evil nature deity.

More hilarity: the humble Vargouille, from the SRD, if advanced to 3 HD, actually can get very close to qualifying. It has all those skills bar the Knowledge (religion), and as an outsider, it picks up about 5 skill ranks per HD. And it has Stealthy too. Indeed taking it to 3 HD gives it an Open Minded feat which then gives it enough skill points to reach the numbers required.

Uncle Pine
2022-05-23, 05:15 AM
More hilarity: the humble Vargouille, from the SRD, if advanced to 3 HD, actually can get very close to qualifying. It has all those skills bar the Knowledge (religion), and as an outsider, it picks up about 5 skill ranks per HD. And it has Stealthy too. Indeed taking it to 3 HD gives it an Open Minded feat which then gives it enough skill points to reach the numbers required.

The thing is, as a 3 HD creature the cap on ranks from both class and cross-class skills prevents it from being able to get close to qualifying.

Metastachydium
2022-05-23, 08:08 AM
Turns out, OCCULT SLAYERCW combines quite naturally with MarrutactsSand: the jackal mage things have tons of skill points sunk into K. (arcana) and Spellcraft, are monstrous humanoids, so the required +5 BAB is no issue and they have Improved Initiative by default. All they have to do is switch out one feat for Weapon Focus (literally anything), and it's not like Dodge synergizes all that well with them (or anything ever) anyway.

Uncle Pine
2022-05-23, 11:16 AM
Qualifies: If advanced to 10 HD, Aboleth (SRD) into Divine Champion of Ilsensine (Player's Guide to Faerun).

Granted, on a height scale of power that started at sea level Divine Champion would be found in the Underdark, but with BAB +7, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks, Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon) and a patron deity as prerequisites it is somewhat easy to qualify.
As an aberration, the aboleth needs 10 HD to reach BAB +7: a stock aboleth starts with 8 RHD, but has an Advancement line of "9-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 HD (Gargantuan)" so this isn't an issue. Aboleths also have max rank in one single Knowledge skill of choice, which takes care of the second requirement. The first of the two HD the advanced aboleth is going to gain will give it a feat to dunk into Weapon Focus (tentacle), one of the two favored weapons of Ilsensine - the LE illithid Tentacle Lord of mental dominion - which handily takes care of the third requirement as well as tying in with the last one by providing a sensible patron deity option.
In order to maximize verisimilitude, I would suggest to have the qualifying aboleth be preemptively feebleminded (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) before selecting this prestige class.

EDIT: And while we're on the topic of terrible prestige classes...

Qualifies: If allowed to set Cormyr as its "home region", Hound archon hero (SRD) into Purple Dragon Knight (Player's Guide to Faerun).

The PGtF Purple Dragon Knight (versions exist in the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting and Complete Warrior as well) has an extensive, and some people might add uncalled for, list of prerequisites:

Base Attack Bonus: +4
Alignment: Any nonevil and nonchaotic
Skills: Diplomacy 1 ranks or Intimidate 1 ranks, Listen 2 ranks, Ride 2 ranks, Spot 2 ranks
Feats: Leadership, Mounted Combat
Region: The candidate must have Cormyr as his home region or have 8 ranks in Knowledge (Cormyr local).
Special: The candidate must be a member of the Purple Dragons.
The hound archon hero is quite literally a hound archon with 11 levels into the Paladin class. This alone might border on dodging the key guiding principle on not using character classes to provide prerequisites, but to my knowledge the guy is quite literally the only statted monster in a book to have Leadership as one of its feats.
In addition to Leadership, the hound archon hero also easily satisfies all other prerequisites... bar one. This is due to the fact that according to the Monster Manual archons, by definition, originate from Celestia: Celestia isn't the Cormyr region and hound archon heroes do not have any Knowledge ranks, but the rules on selecting your home region in PGtF are nebulous enough and reliant on "justifying the selection with at least a mention in the character background" that skipping this prerequisite shouldn't be a big issue. If it is, then this entry is only Close to qualifying for the PrC at hand.

Uncle Pine
2022-05-24, 10:44 AM
Close: Bone naga (MMII) into Arcane Devotee (Player's Guide to Faerun).

Skills: Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Enlarge Spell
Spells: Able to cast 4th-level arcane spells.
Patron Deity: An arcane devotee must have a patron deity, and it must be the one he serves as an arcane devotee.
Considering the above requirements, bone nagas have Spellcraft ranks, Enlarge Spell, naturally cast spells as 14th-level sorcerers and are more than intelligent enough to select a patron deity. The only tidbit they're short on are a few Knowledge (religion) ranks, which can be aquired in a few methods including but not limited to advancement, blowing two flaws on Open Minded feats, or sheer skill ranks shuffling among the semi-large list already at the naga's disposal.

For bonus points, this is a PrC from PGtF that isn't completely unsalvageable: I could see a bone naga Arcane Devotee 3 at the head of a LE cult getting to abuse Divine Synergy quite reliably over the course of an adventure or big fight.

Saintheart
2022-05-25, 12:58 AM
Aglarondan Griffonrider (Unapproachable East)

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Alignment: Any nonevil
Skills: Diplomacy 5 ranks , Ride 10 ranks , Spot 5 ranks
Feats: Mounted Combat , Ride-By Attack
Special: The character must qualify to select regional feats from Aglarond (Aglarond is her home region, or she has 2 ranks in Knowledge [local—Aglarond]).

Monsters who qualify:



Monsters who are close:

SRD: Triton (CR 2); Hound Archon Hero (CR 16); Hoary Hunter (CR 26)
Monster Manual 2: Sun Giant (CR 12)
Fiendish Codex 2: Narzugon (CR 5)

Missing:
- Triton: 3 ranks Diplomacy (class skill), 4 ranks Ride (class skill), 2 ranks Knowledge [local - Aglarond].
- Hound Archon Hero: 2 ranks Spot, 2 ranks Knowledge [local - Aglarond].
- Hoary Hunter: 2 ranks Knowledge [local - Aglarond], incompatible alignment.
- Sun Giant: Ride-By Attack, 2 ranks Knowledge [local - Aglarond], 5 ranks Diplomacy
- Narzugon: 2 ranks Knowledge [local - Aglarond], 5 ranks Diplomacy, incompatible alignment.

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Triton: Advance HD to 7 HD. This provides maximum skill ranks of 10 and all the skill points to reach the prerequisites (even with cross-class).
- Hound Archon Hero: Advance 1 HD or take two instances of Open Minded.
- Sun Giant: Flaw feats for Open Minded to get skill ranks, Ride-By Attack. May need to take a level in a PC class to qualify, can't advance by HD.

Note:
- Yes, it's crazy that undersea and heavenly creatures are most likely to qualify for a griffonriding class. Although as others note, the Archon's ability to qualify possibly comes more from its 11 levels in Paladin than anything else.

Saintheart
2022-05-25, 01:14 AM
Akodo Champion (Oriental Adventures)

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Alignment: Lawful Good
Race: Human (Lion)
Skills: Knowledge (history) 4 ranks
Feats: Iron Will , Ki Shout , Weapon Focus (katana)

Monsters who qualify:
None.


Monsters who are close:
... the Human-Headed Tengu (Oriental Adventures) has a human head ... and Weapon Focus (katana), almost uniquely out of all monsters across the board ...

Saintheart
2022-05-25, 09:22 PM
Alchemist Savant (Magic of Eberron)

Prerequisites:
Skills: Craft (alchemy) 8 ranks
Feats: Brew Potion
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells or infusions.
Special: Favored in House (House Cannith) or Least Dragonmark (Mark of Making).

Monsters who qualify:
None.


Monsters who are close:


SRD: Demilich (CR 29), Worm That Walks (CR 26)

Missing:
- Favored in House or Least Dragonmark

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Flaw feat for missing Special prerequisite.



Monster Manual (3.5): Mind Flayer Sorcerer (CR 9)

Missing:
- Brew Potion and Special feat prerequisite.

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Flaw feats for missing feat prerequisites.



Libris Mortis: Necropolitan Wizard (CR 5)
Lords of Madness: Grell Patriarch (CR 10)

Missing:
- Craft (Alchemy) 8 ranks.
- Special prerequisite.

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Flaw feats for Open Minded and Special Prerequisite.
- Level in Wizard

Saintheart
2022-05-27, 02:01 AM
Alienist (Complete Arcane)

Prerequisites:
Alignment: any nonlawful
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks
Feats: Augment Summoning
Spells: Able to cast at least one summoning spell of 3rd level or higher.
Special: Must have made peaceful contact with an alienist or a pseudonatural creature.

Monsters who qualify:



Monsters who are close:
(Courtesy AvatarVecna:)

Summoning Ooze (Monster Manual 3)
Brine Naga (CR 9) (Web)
Drow Priestess (CR 9) (Monster Manual 4)

Missing:
8 ranks Knowledge (the planes)

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Flaw feats for Open Minded application.


Grimweird (Monster Manual 3)

Missing:
- Incompatible alignment



Monsters that lack the ability to cast a summoning spell of 3rd level or higher

- Spell-like abilities qualify as spellcasting for the purposes of prestige class qualification.
- Most mid-to-high-CR devils have SLAs allowing them to summon more of themselves. These are usually expressed in their statblocks as equivalent to a given spell If it is 3rd level or higher, this criterion is satisfied.

loky1109
2022-05-27, 05:17 AM
Every time you say:

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Flaw feats for ...
you can say "change monster's feats" instead. As I see adding flaws are more heavy-handed intervention than changing one of the monster's Toughness for something useful.


Alienist (Magic of Eberron)
It's from Complete Arcane.

Saintheart
2022-05-31, 08:23 PM
Anarchic Initiate (Complete Psionic)

Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any chaotic.
Skills: Knowledge (psionics) 8 ranks , Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks
Wild Surge class feature OR Overchannel feat

Monsters who qualify:
None.


Monsters who are close:

SRD: Unbodied (CR 5), Caller in Darkness (CR 9), Cerebrelith (CR 10), Neothelid (CR 15)

Missing:
- Insufficient ranks in Knowledge skills
- Lacks Overchannel feat

Suggestions for qualifying:
- Swap out useless feat, or take flaw feat for Overchannel
- Open Minded feat for Knowledge ranks