Is there a list of non-deity clerical patrons anywhere?

[thorr-kan]

The PH has the traditional D&D gods of the traditional D&D pantheons. Is there a list anywhere of the demons, devils, archfey, or aracho-elementals that have also traditionally granted spells?

[RogueJK]

For Clerics in 5E, it's specified that their spells are granted by deities. So something like an Archfey, Demon, or Devil wouldn't be able to grant Cleric spells, unless that particular one has ascended to godhood (like Asmodeus at one point). Similarly, for Druids in 5E, it's specified that their spells are granted by either a Nature deity or by Nature itself. So something like a non-deity Archfey wouldn't be able to grant Druid spells either.

Therefore, what you're describing is the realm of the Warlock in 5E, whose spells are granted through pacts with powerful non-deities. There isn't an exhaustive list that I know of, but many of the Warlock patron entries give a few examples of each type, or at least a broad description of the types of entities involved. So pulling from those, we get the following:

Archfey: Beings of this sort include the Prince of Frost; the Queen of Air and Darkness, ruler of the Gloaming Court; Titania of the Summer Court; her consort Oberon, the Green Lord; Hyrsam, the Prince of Fools; and ancient hags.

Celestial: You have bound yourself to an ancient empyrean, solar, ki-rin, unicorn, or other entity that resides in the planes of everlasting bliss.

Fathomless: An entity of the ocean, the Elemental Plane of Water, or another otherworldly sea now allows you to draw on its thalassic power. Entities of the deep that might empower a warlock include krakens, ancient water elementals, godlike hallucinations dreamed into being by kuo-toa, merfolk demigods, and sea hag covens.

Fiend: Fiends powerful enough to forge a pact include demon lords such as Demogorgon, Orcus, Fraz’Urb-luu, and Baphomet; archdevils such as Asmodeus, Dispater, Mephistopheles, and Belial; pit fiends and balors that are especially mighty; and ultroloths and other lords of the yugoloths.

Genie: You have made a pact with one of the rarest kinds of genie, a noble genie. Such entities rule vast fiefs on the Elemental Planes and have great influence over lesser genies and elemental creatures.

Great Old One: Your patron is a mysterious entity whose nature is utterly foreign to the fabric of reality. It might come from the Far Realm, the space beyond reality, or it could be one of the elder gods known only in legends. Entities of this type include Ghaunadar, called That Which Lurks; Tharizdun, the Chained God; Dendar, the Night Serpent; Zargon, the Returner; Great Cthulhu; and other unfathomable beings.

Hexblade: You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell — a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. Because the Raven Queen is known to have forged the first of these weapons, many sages speculate that she and the force are one and that the weapons, along with hexblade warlocks, are tools she uses to manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends.

Undead: You’ve made a pact with a deathless being, a creature that defies the cycle and life and death, forsaking its mortal shell so it might eternally pursue its unfathomable ambitions. Beings of this type include the demilich Acererak, the vampire tyrant Kas the Bloody-Handed, the githyanki lich-queen Vlaakith, the dracolich Dragotha, the undead pharaoh Ankhtepot, and the elusive Darklord, Azalin Rex.

Undying: Death holds no sway over your patron, who has unlocked the secrets of everlasting life, although such a prize—like all power—comes at a price. Beings of this sort include Vecna, Lord of the Hand and the Eye; the dread Iuz; the lich-queen Vol; the Undying Court of Aerenal; Vlaakith, lich-queen of the githyanki; and the deathless wizard Fistandantalus. In the Realms, Undying patrons include Larloch the Shadow King, legendary master of Warlock’s Crypt, and Gilgeam, the God-King of Unther.

[Naanomi]

This is a setting dependent question (Athasian clerics being the classic counter-example, but several others exist), but in general you have to be a God to grant cleric powers... which isn't to say there are not several entities that are both demons/devils/archfey/elementals/whatever AND Gods...

Asmodeus, Tenebrous, The Queen of Air and Darkness, the four Elemental Powers, Pisaethces...

[Sigreid]

Technically, by the rules; you can declare anything or anyone as your God. The description states that the gods grant cleric abilities for their own reasons independent of what they mortal does or believes.

[Unoriginal]

This is a setting dependent question (Athasian clerics being the classic counter-example, but several others exist), but in general you have to be a God to grant cleric powers... which isn't to say there are not several entities that are both demons/devils/archfey/elementals/whatever AND Gods...

Indeed, with Tharizdun holding the distinction of being the only entity in 5e un to be directly referred to as both a god, a Great Old One and an Elder Evil. To my knowledge, at least.

[thorr-kan]

Another thing they changed and now it sucks. (Not really.) But a change I regret being made. Those beings granting spells was kinda the POINT in some 2E adventures.

Thanks, all.

[Unoriginal]

Another thing they changed and now it sucks. (Not really.) But a change I regret being made. Those beings granting spells was kinda the POINT in some 2E adventures.

Thanks, all.

They can still grant powers and spells, though. Just not empower Clerics.

The Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes has a whole section about what kind of spells and signature abilities Devil cultists usually receive, for example. And another for Demon-granted Boons. And I'm fairly certain there is a list of powers cultists of the different Elder Evils get.

[thorr-kan]

They can still grant powers and spells, though. Just not empower Clerics.

The Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes has a whole section about what kind of spells and signature abilities Devil cultists usually receive, for example. And another for Demon-granted Boons. And I'm fairly certain there is a list of powers cultists of the different Elder Evils get.
Thanks for that info. But the point's not cultists or warlocks, it's full-on clerics.

Since WotC has failed, is anyone aware of any good third-party 5E that treads the same ground?

[Unoriginal]

Thanks for that info. But the point's not cultists or warlocks, it's full-on clerics.

Since WotC has failed, is anyone aware of any good third-party 5E that treads the same ground?


The same ground being non-deities empowering Clerics, right?

Honestly, given how empowering Clericsis one of the two defining characteristic of godhood in 5e (the other being to be able to gain power from worship), I doubt you'd find third-party about that. Unless you're looking for "use D&D rules but not D&D lore" third-party, maybe.

[Joe the Rat]

Another thing they changed and now it sucks. (Not really.) But a change I regret being made. Those beings granting spells was kinda the POINT in some 2E adventures.

Thanks, all.

Also note that there are not Lesser and Greater distinctions, so you don't have to worry about capping out your Cleric progression because your deity was too specialized.

Are you coming at this as a player or DM?

As DM, You already have the lists from earlier editions - the lore isn't erased, just ignored when not updated. Apply progression caps as fits - 5th level cleric for Demigods and Lesser Powers, 10th level cleric for Lesser Gods and Great Powers, full progression for Greater Gods, for example - that gives you the more classic 3rd and 5th level spell cutoffs. The ease of multiclassing makes this not too onerous an option - most characters should have a 13 somewhere that lets them multiclass.
Cult Fanatics, the NPC write-up, do come with some Cleric-based casting (Wisdom stat, cleric spells), so there is argument to be made that non-deities can grant some cleric magic. Gathering worshippers is a classical means to apotheosis.

As a Player, this is very much a question for the DM - having examples isn't going to help if the first answer was "No." If it's about doing your homework, hit the wiki for your target setting, or the most adjacent, and start skimming.

[Sigreid]

It could be an interesting in game campaign discovery if the clerics all had their powers, the gods don't know why and are running a con that the powers come from them to control these special mortals. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

Technically, by the rules; you can declare anything or anyone as your God. The description states that the gods grant cleric abilities for their own reasons independent of what they mortal does or believes. The DMG has an optional rule about Forces and Philosophies that gives the DM a lot of leeway in what grants divine spells. I like it.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

The PH has the traditional D&D gods of the traditional D&D pantheons. Is there a list anywhere of the demons, devils, archfey, or aracho-elementals that have also traditionally granted spells?

Not exactly what you're looking for, but in the DMG on page 13 there is a default rule that your Cleric can be powered by "forces of nature or magic", or being devoted to an ideal/philosophy if you want. I don't believe there's anything like a list of non-deity beings you can worship to gain power from, but you don't specifically have to worship a deity, either, and could instead simply be a Cleric of Absurdism or something.

[Naanomi]

Indeed, with Tharizdun holding the distinction of being the only entity in 5e un to be directly referred to as both a god, a Great Old One and an Elder Evil. To my knowledge, at least.

Pisaethces probably checks all those boxes as well

[thorr-kan]

It could be an interesting in game campaign discovery if the clerics all had their powers, the gods don't know why and are running a con that the powers come from them to control these special mortals. :smallbiggrin:
That's an awesome twist for a high-level campaign that never would have occurred to me. Well played, sir.

Mostly I'm looking at this from campaign design. My brain woke me up at 327AM yesterday morning (I checked the clock), with the thought, "What if the evil outsiders where the Churches of Power and the warlocks were the fey- and celestial-empowered Resistance?"

I have no idea where this came from, except for some once-upon-a-time fiddling with using the Green Ronin Freeport Cultist NPC class as a Good-aligned PC.

[Millstone85]

Recently, 5e has become wishy-washy on the divinity of Bahamut and Tiamat.


Bahamut and Tiamat, the primordial dragons and the purported creators of the First World, are the closest things to gods among dragonkind. Since they share the same fundamental connection to the Material Plane as their dragon offspring, Bahamut and Tiamat are ontologically distinct from the gods that hail from the Outer Planes. But for practical purposes, they are divine -- worshiped by mortal creatures, able to grant cleric spells to their followers, and both ageless and immortal. Since the destruction of the First World, both primordial dragons now dwell in the Outer Planes -- Bahamut on Mount Celestia and Tiamat in the Nine Hells.

As you can see, this sets a 5e precedent for an entity being a god in abilities despite not being a god in nature. If this works for primordial dragons, why not for archfey and archomentals?

Now, personally, I don't see why the gods that hail from the Outer Planes would alone be the real deal. They are ancient and immortal outsiders, just like B&T are ancient and immortal dragons, and all can grant cleric spells. Maybe they are really just glorified celestials and fiends, or perhaps a distinct species (4e FR called them "estelar") with ties to the Astral Plane (where they are still known to become petrified vestiges).

Edit: Well, I just answered my own question, didn't I? The concept of being powered by mortal faith, and granting spells to the faithful, would probably have been invented in the Astral Plane, making the estelar the original model for divinity.

[Unoriginal]

Recently, 5e has become wishy-washy on the divinity of Bahamut and Tiamat.



As you can see, this sets a 5e precedent for an entity being a god in abilities despite not being a god in nature. If this works for primordial dragons, why not for archfey and archomentals?

Now, personally, I don't see why the gods that hail from the Outer Planes would alone be the real deal. They are ancient and immortal outsiders, just like B&T are ancient and immortal dragons, and all can grant cleric spells. Maybe they are really just glorified celestials and fiends, or perhaps a distinct species (4e FR called them "estelar") with ties to the Astral Plane (where they are still known to become petrified vestiges).

Edit: Well, I just answered my own question, didn't I? The concept of being powered by mortal faith, and granting spells to the faithful, would probably have been invented in the Astral Plane, making the estelar the original model for divinity.

For what it's worth, Tomb of Annihilation talks about gods-before-they-got-worshiped-as-gods, and those in particular were animist spirits of the land, so very much not Outer Plane creatures.

[Naanomi]

Classically the whole 'powered by belief' thing is more than enough to manifest a God completely out of nothing in the Outer Planes... there doesn't have to be anything that 'became Gods' (and there is debate as to whether the beings that 'ascend to divinity' have a whole lot to do with the Gods they 'become' in the long term)

Conversely, we have lots of Primordial beings that long predate the existence of Gods (remember that a huge chunk of planar history predates the Gods) that eventually assumed divinity... Io, the first queen of the Fey, maybe Primus (or some version of him), a few Old Ones

[Polyphemus]

You could also take a page out of Eberron's lore, where instead of being empowered by a deity your cleric is instead powered by their own unshakeable faith in something; not even necessarily a deity, if I remember correctly at least back in the day you could totally have clerics in Eberron dedicated to philosophical concepts like "freedom" or "peace" or "love", and not the gods who theoretically govern those concepts.

[137beth]

For Clerics in 5E, it's specified that their spells are granted by deities.

I don't have the Eberron books for 5e. Is it stated who or what is granting spells to clerics of Blood of Vol or the Lord of Blades? If it's a deity, that would be a large retcon from previous editions and would IMO mess with the feel of the world.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't have the Eberron books for 5e. Is it stated who or what is granting spells to clerics of Blood of Vol or the Lord of Blades? If it's a deity, that would be a large retcon from previous editions and would IMO mess with the feel of the world.

General vs specific.

In general (5e default), cleric === empowered by a god. As others said, there's a DM-facing variant that allows DMs (or setting builders) to opt into allowing forces and philosophies (or other such things) to empower clerics. That's the route 5e-Eberron took. And for that setting, that's the "truth".

-----

Personally, I've played around with this a bit.

Gods, in my setting, are the only ones who can empower clerics. Because literally clerical spell-casting is to have delegated access to a repository of universal API calls (aka spells) via the mechanism that runs the entire universe (in a mechanistic sense). Effectively, clerics are given access rights to a curated list of spell-patterns. Which is why they have access to their whole list--they're downloading patterns into their souls via a process other than "memorization". And why they have domain spells--those ones are loaded into their account by their patron. And only deities can delegate access like this.

But gods don't need worship. In fact, that's a key--the gods are supported by the Great Mechanism because they "take all comers." They're employees of the GM itself, with the role of being the customer service point. Anyone can pray and (possibly) receive a miracle. Or have a messenger sent. But it's not a matter of right, it depends on the god, their request, and how it all fits into the nature and needs of the universe. This means that you can have situations like the group that thinks they're empowered by the goddess of hearth, home, and family, but are actually empowered/sponsored by the god of practical jokes as part of a scheme to discredit that group's ideology and that of similar people (which is best expressed as WH40K Imperium meets D&D--extremely xenophobic and genocidal).

On the other hand, there are a multitude of "ascendants"--former mortals who have made a foothold in the Astral[1] because they are worshiped/honored/remembered by other mortals. This empowers them, and in return they can empower their followers. However, they can only teach/open the way for people (aka making a Pact). And they can't teach anything they don't know. And once their client has learned the pattern, the patron can't take it back. But most of their gifts are closer to Divine Intervention--people pray to them and the ascendant acts (either directly or through a servant) on their behalf. When and if and how it suits the ascendant. Up to the limits of that ascendant's power and influence, subject to interference by other ascendants.

And this goes for most "priests" of the gods as well--very few of them are actual clerics. They're mostly warlock-like, gaining knowledge and power from obedience and rituals. In fact, you could say that in many cases, their Patron and Pact is the church itself. They are initiated into the Mysteries and taught certain "powers" (some of which are spells, but most are not) and "secrets", having their spell-slots ripped open by ritual and concentrated faith of the people and conviction, not by meditation and faith. You can even be an utter heretic priest and keep your powers, while a cleric who rejects his God will have his access removed[2]. Or maybe it's better to say that they cut themselves off.

[1] 4e-like, I've condensed the vast majority of the Outer planes into the Astral. It's where all the non-elemental, non-demonic ascendants, all the devils, and a good chunk of other random beings live. Everyone there has True Words at their core, not an actual soul. Which has benefits and consequences. In fact, angels, devils, and most of the "flora" and "fauna" of the Astral are actually the same species--their shape is a matter of belief and consensus, not biology.
[2] But usually be snapped up by a different deity with whom he's more aligned, since people who can sustain and act as channels for the Great Mechanism and for direct divine power are rather few and far between--much too precious a commodity in the divine economy to be left on the side. Even some "heretic" clerics, if they're merely disillusioned and angry rather than outright rejecting, will be used by their god despite differing strongly. Gods work via nudges and gambits, not by direct commands.

[P. G. Macer]

If you are playing in Exandria and specifically Wildemount, there is the list of “Lesser Idols”—beings that offer both cleric Divine Domains and function as warlock Otherworldly patrons.

[No brains]

We've got a chicken and egg conundrum here. Clerics ask gods for spells because gods give spells to clerics. One of the ways to define godhood is through giving out cleric spells, so it gets difficult to find something that grants cleric spells without being a god.

There are some pseudo-gods that have some clerics. The Cat Lord is a god under a pile of quotation marks. Lolth is alternately categorized as a goddess and demon lord- if those are mutually exclusive, take your pick as to what she really is. I think Orcus has a similar deal as does Asmodeus, but as an Archdevil. Blibdolpoolp (and other idols) might not actually exist, but Kuo-Toa priests still get cleric spells from them. Tharizdun is less of a god and more of an elder evil sometimes. Those are all the things I can recall off the top of my head that have clerics and might not be considered gods.

It's still possible to devote yourself to an ideal or philosophy as a cleric. XGtE 18 has a sidebar on that and it refers to the DMG for more info. You can be a cleric of good, the sun, or just of your domain subclass, but that got less focus because it gives the DM one fewer NPC who the PCs might have reason to listen to. :smallbiggrin:

[Pixel_Kitsune]

At the risk of starting discussion...

Yes, the PHB states the generic Cleric is empowered by a god. But the generic SRD just states a Cleric is a "conduit for divine power" which is also what a Druid is. Further the DMG specifies you can have forces and beliefs. Then we have Exandria, Eberron and Fizban's specifying non gods offering cleric spells....

I don't get how you read that as Clerics have to have a god vs a generic cleric is going to have a god. The first interpretation makes all the exceptions contradictions. The second just supports the exceptions.

[Millstone85]

An idea I would like to play with is that being a god means being "archcaster of a philosophy". You get to decide who does or doesn't gain spells and other features from the philosophy, and will typically elect yourself as level 20 cleric, druid, paladin or ranger.

That's all. In itself, it doesn't make you immortal or anything.

However, most gods would also be mighty dragons, krakens, elementals, etc., as these would have the easiest time finding and keeping followers. As for gods of more modest origins, they would be expected to eventually return as celestials or fiends.

[Naanomi]

We've got a chicken and egg conundrum here. Clerics ask gods for spells because gods give spells to clerics.
Traditionally, this is resolved by either the new God having a divine power source (another God, an artifact, etc) that sustains their Divinity until the have a worship base (at which point getting your first few prophets/popes/etc is priority #1, perhaps with the direct help of the other Gods in your pantheon)

OR

They were a widely respected/worshiped figure before their divine ascension (perhaps even a demi-deity) and their closest followers becoming Clerics is the first sign of their incoming god-enning

[Unoriginal]

Traditionally, this is resolved by either the new God having a divine power source (another God, an artifact, etc) that sustains their Divinity until the have a worship base (at which point getting your first few prophets/popes/etc is priority #1, perhaps with the direct help of the other Gods in your pantheon)

OR

They were a widely respected/worshiped figure before their divine ascension (perhaps even a demi-deity) and their closest followers becoming Clerics is the first sign of their incoming god-enning

Or the being starts as some form of godling with their own divine spark already, technically with the capacity to get power from worship and empower Clerics from the get go, but a lot of worship is required before they're powerful enough to empower Clerics significantly.

This one generally happens when the entity is born (or "born") a god, but it's also one of the ways how a dead (or mostly dead) god can come back.

[thorr-kan]

As an aside, there's some great campaign design being shared here.

[Mjolnirbear]

To be clear, there's no rule at all that says a cleric's patron must be divine.

Lore, sure. But no rule. Just like a warlock need not literally sell their soul. Or a sorcerer might not literally have dragon ancestors, but might have consumed dragon's blood.

If OP wants a non-god patron for their cleric, just ask the DM. It won't break anything at all. If OP is the DM, just let the player pick a non-god.

If you just want lore for world-building, just modify what you find to fit your needs. Literally no one will care if you change the lore.

[Unoriginal]

Lore, sure. But no rule. Just like a warlock need not literally sell their soul. Or a sorcerer might not literally have dragon ancestors, but might have consumed dragon's blood.

Just wanted to point out that lore-wise, someone selling their soul for beginner warlock powers is getting scammed. You can get much more in exchange for a soul.

[qube]

In general (5e default), cleric === empowered by a god.This is not correct.
A "true God" is an entity that has ascended to Godhood
A "deity" is an entity that grants spells to clerics

The elemental primordials (Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth) are considered deities (5E PHB lists them in the deity appendix), and grant spells to clerics (5E doesn't threat them any different then any other deity), but they are specifically not true Gods.

As such - it's important to note it seems the arrow is the other direction. it's not
"X is a deity ---> X grants spells to clerics"
it's
"X grants spells to cleric ---> X is considered a deity"

As such, by definition there would be no non-deities that grant spells to cleric. But there are non-Gods that do.

[Unoriginal]

This is not correct.
A "true God" is an entity that has ascended to Godhood
A "deity" is an entity that grants spells to clerics

The elemental primordials (Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth) are considered deities (5E PHB lists them in the deity appendix), and grant spells to clerics (5E doesn't threat them any different then any other deity), but they are specifically not true Gods.

As such - it's important to note it seems the arrow is the other direction. it's not
"X is a deity ---> X grants spells to clerics"
it's
"X grants spells to cleric ---> X is considered a deity"

As such, by definition there would be no non-deities that grant spells to cleric. But there are non-Gods that do.

5e makes no distinction between "deity" and "god", nor does it makes a distinction between entities that are born as deities and those who ascended to godhood. It also does not use capital-G God.

Some elemental primordials are also gods, same as there are demons who are also gods, or one devil who is also a god.

[qube]

Some elemental primordials are also gods, same as there are demons who are also gods, or one devil who is also a god.
That presumably might be true - but this is not the case for Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia or Kossuth. And yet, in 5E they do grant spells.

The point was, that RogueJK is correct in pointing out that


For Clerics in 5E, it's specified that their spells are granted by deities

But that begs the question "What does 5E consider to be a deity?".

Considering Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia or Kossuth are, in lore, not gods - 5E's (mechanical) term "deity" simply does not seem to be (in lore) God - but (in lore) entity that grants spells to clerics. And that makes the statement circular - as it 'translates' to


Clerics in 5E get their spells from entities that grant spells to clerics

The topic of this thread (Is there a list of non-deity clerical patrons anywhere?) isn't about said circular defintion. It's about (lore) non-deities.
If there is such a list, Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia & Kossuth would be on it - as patrons that aren't gods, that grant spells.

[Naanomi]

Why are the four elemental powers not Gods? Because 4e decided that Primordials (a concept that only nebulously exists in 5e Lore) are not Gods? Plenty of beings that predate the Gods later became Gods, the four elemental lords among them.

[qube]

Why are the four elemental powers not Gods? Because 4e decided that Primordials (a concept that only nebulously exists in 5e Lore) are not Gods?To take one earlier source, the 3.0 book FR - Faiths & Pantheons, notes of Kossuth


A supremely powerful elemental being known as Kossuth has lorded over fire since the earliest moments of the multiverse, though weather or not the contemporary Kossuth is the same primordial being or one in a long line of similarly named successors is a matter of much conjecture.

And while that might sound unsure, Each history of the other 3 elemental deities start with


X is one of the four elemental lords who seem to stand appart from history, unchanged by the passage of time

Implying this also applies for Kossoth.

Likewise, Recall the Times of Trouble, when all deities lost their divinity and were cast to the mortal realms? The elemental lords - their the whereabouts were myseriously unknown. :smallamused:


4E didn't as much "decide" - they "confirmed and spelled it out".

[Millstone85]

Likewise, Recall the Times of Trouble, when all deities lost their divinity and were cast to the mortal realms? The elemental lords - their the whereabouts were myseriously unknown. :smallamused:What I wonder is how the Time of Troubles affected "interloper" deities, these gods whose origins and activities cover more than just Realmspace.

Did Ao force Corellon into a mortal form? Would he have been able to?

[Unoriginal]

To take one earlier source, the 3.0 book FR - Faiths & Pantheons, notes of Kossuth


A supremely powerful elemental being known as Kossuth has lorded over fire since the earliest moments of the multiverse, though weather or not the contemporary Kossuth is the same primordial being or one in a long line of similarly named successors is a matter of much conjecture.

And while that might sound unsure, Each history of the other 3 elemental deities start with


X is one of the four elemental lords who seem to stand appart from history, unchanged by the passage of time

Implying this also applies for Kossoth.

Likewise, Recall the Times of Trouble, when all deities lost their divinity and were cast to the mortal realms? The elemental lords - their the whereabouts were myseriously unknown. :smallamused:


4E didn't as much "decide" - they "confirmed and spelled it out".

5e made Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia or Kossuth into gods:



Akadi, Goddess of Air
Grumbar, God of Earth
Istishia, God of Water
Kossuth, God of Fire

SCAG p.21

Lore changes, and in 5e if you're a deity you are a god, as well as able of granting spells to Clerics.


What I wonder is how the Time of Troubles affected "interloper" deities, these gods whose origins and activities cover more than just Realmspace.

Did Ao force Corellon into a mortal form? Would he have been able to?

I don't know if Ao did force Corellon, but he would have been able to so long as it was only Realmspace Corellon.

As in, the part of the Corellon-whole who works as the Realmspace deity Corellon.

[Naanomi]

They were Gods, clearly labeled as such on the 2e sources that spelled out most of their original details (as well as in Planescape supporting materials); just because they existed before they were Gods is inconsequential; that is true for many other beings as well. They had Clerics, maintained Divine Realms, administered Portfolios, collected souls of worshipers in death... They were also supremely powerful Archomentals (just like several Gods are also Arch-Devils/Demon Princes etc; and a few are also immensely powerful Aberrations in addition to being Gods)

The mantle of Divinity doesn't exclude any of those things

It has been historically true that Pantheons can supply clerical power to clerics of Gods that have fallen or the like (like Anubis' special status, yet there are still clerics of Anubis that the rest of the Pharonic pantheon supports)

Edit: also yeah, a ton of Gods active on Toril didn't get pulled into the Time of Troubles, including the elemental lords but also most Racial Gods

[qube]

5e made Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia or Kossuth into godsA word in a table without any of the the nuances of lore is hardly proof.

Case in point? You'll note that Correlon's entry states "god of art a magic" , while even 5E notes the Correlon is depicted as often male as female (and before anyone thinks this is some 5E LGBTQ pandering - Correlon's genderfluidness dates back to the very first write up for the elf pantheon in, I presume, 1E).

An in-lore male denomer woudn't make sense - but a single word in a table isn't the best place for nuance.

[PhoenixPhyre]

A word in a table without any of the the nuances of lore is hardly proof.

Case in point? You'll note that Correlon's entry states "god of art a magic" , while even 5E notes the Correlon is depicted as often male as female (and before anyone thinks this is some 5E LGBTQ pandering - Correlon's genderfluidness dates back to the very first write up for the elf pantheon in, I presume, 1E).

An in-lore male denomer woudn't make sense - but a single word in a table isn't the best place for nuance.

Hunting for lore nuances in 5e is a sub-species of the venerable snipe-hunt. And applying old-edition lore is actively frowned upon by WotC (at least for their writers)--it's a line in their style guide. Assume nothing from previous editions is true unless it's stated in the current edition. And yes, that leaves lots of things at the "shrug, who knows?" level.

The same goes for trying to distinguish between "deity" and "god". The two are used interchangeably without distinction.

[Unoriginal]

A word in a table without any of the the nuances of lore is hardly proof.

So you're saying that them being called gods in the books is not a proof that they're gods?

How is it not a proof?



Case in point? You'll note that Correlon's entry states "god of art a magic" , while even 5E notes the Correlon is depicted as often male as female (and before anyone thinks this is some 5E LGBTQ pandering - Correlon's genderfluidness dates back to the very first write up for the elf pantheon in, I presume, 1E).

An in-lore male denomer woudn't make sense - but a single word in a table isn't the best place for nuance.

"God" is not a male-only denomination.

Also, Corellon is called "a god" several times in the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, a book which directly mentions Corellon's genderfluidness. Among other things, it is said: "the most ancient tales speak of elves as the children of the god Corellon." (p.35) and Corellon is called "Primary god of the Elves" (p.43).

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Fun side tangent.

Seems to be a thread of discussion about gods being gods because they "ascended" to godhood.

Since we're talking about Corellon, the official 5e Lore says they're a Chaos Exemplar essentially. A good one, so something akin to a creature above even Morwel's Court of Stars if we tap older lore. Corellon is very clearly a god. Correlon did not "ascend" to deity-hood. They just are what they are. Heck, by 5e Lore they're not an anything. The form of an "elf" is essentially Lolth's trickery and correlon is... whatever they feel like being at the moment.

So how are they a god if you "have to ascend to godhood"? :)

[Naanomi]

Ascension is one way to become a God, not the only way. Some are born of other Gods, some are created directly by Overpowers or similarly higher order cosmic beings, some are belief'd into existence without actually existing first. A few beings were powerful and cosmically central so that when Gods first became a thing they were already in position to become one without 'Ascending'. There are a couple or artifacts capable of creating Gods, either by forcing ascension or just ex-nihilo. A small number seemed to have 'descended' into Godhood after previously being something more powerful.

If the story presented about Corellon is accurate then yes he was probably one of the Chaotic Good exemplar races (one of the primordial ones whose ruins are in Mithardir and who predated Morwel and her court I'd wager); many of the racial deities are that kind of Outer Planar native being (the rest were mostly powerful early rulers who didn't actually create their race, Spelljammer historically implied the Dwarven pantheon is like that)

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Ascension is one way to become a God, not the only way. Some are born of other Gods, some are created directly by Overpowers or similarly higher order cosmic beings, some are belief'd into existence without actually existing first. A few beings were powerful and cosmically central so that when Gods first became a thing they were already in position to become one without 'Ascending'. There are a couple or artifacts capable of creating Gods, either by forcing ascension or just ex-nihilo. A small number seemed to have 'descended' into Godhood after previously being something more powerful.

If the story presented about Corellon is accurate then yes he was probably one of the Chaotic Good exemplar races (one of the primordial ones whose ruins are in Mithardir and who predated Morwel and her court I'd wager); many of the racial deities are that kind of Outer Planar native being (the rest were mostly powerful early rulers who didn't actually create their race, Spelljammer historically implied the Dwarven pantheon is like that)

Absolutely, and I'm definitely in the boat of "Lots of things are "gods" and grant cleric spells." I mean, look at Darksun where we have a bunch of Immortal humans who attached Elemental jelly-fish to themselves and now grant clerical powers.

I was more just tossing out my statement there in response to the idea someone had said earlier that a deity had to be someone who ascended into goodhood.

I personally always use the idea that believers stick it to some poor sap (Or some cosmic immortal sap). Kind of like what almost happened to that Archfey in Wildemount called the Traveler. Just a random Archfey, started helping out some people who amused him. Accidentally triggered divine faith in them and... "Wait, what? Well what I do with this now?"

Wouldn't be surprised if that's how Corellon as 5e tells the tale ended up a god. The story clearly says they refused a singular form and banished away all the "elves" who took a specific form. Something tells me such a being wouldn't be their god. But if the "First elves" kept passing the story on and enough elves were praying to Corellon. Well, chances are they woke up one morning and... yep, I'm a god now... wierd.

[Millstone85]

I personally always use the idea that believers stick it to some poor sap (Or some cosmic immortal sap). Kind of like what almost happened to that Archfey in Wildemount called the Traveler. Just a random Archfey, started helping out some people who amused him. Accidentally triggered divine faith in them and... "Wait, what? Well what I do with this now?"Obviously, you find some other poor sap and say "You are a cleric now. Go around casting spells with this symbol I just made up". :smallwink:

[Joe the Rat]

I personally always use the idea that believers stick it to some poor sap (Or some cosmic immortal sap). Kind of like what almost happened to that Archfey in Wildemount called the Traveler. Just a random Archfey, started helping out some people who amused him. Accidentally triggered divine faith in them and... "Wait, what? Well what I do with this now?"

Obviously, you find some other poor sap and say "You are a cleric now. Go around casting spells with this symbol I just made up". :smallwink:Humorous and canonical - Clerics are empowered by choice of the deity, it doesn't say the cleric necessarily had a choice in the matter.


As an aside, this is one of the things I look to when players want to add cleric to a character - what has the PC done that has garnered the interest of a divinity? Faith and acting in ideals (whether God of Heroism or a Greater-demonic-entity-with-a-god-certificate) seems like a good way to go. So does atonement. Piss a god off enough, it might make you a cleric and give you a mission. Or make you a Warlock. Hmm...

[Unoriginal]

Humorous and canonical - Clerics are empowered by choice of the deity, it doesn't say the cleric necessarily had a choice in the matter.


As an aside, this is one of the things I look to when players want to add cleric to a character - what has the PC done that has garnered the interest of a divinity? Faith and acting in ideals (whether God of Heroism or a Greater-demonic-entity-with-a-god-certificate) seems like a good way to go. So does atonement. Piss a god off enough, it might make you a cleric and give you a mission. Or make you a Warlock. Hmm...

As I often say, in 5e you are not a Cleric because you believe in a god, you are a Cleric because a god believes in you.

Sometime the god believes in you suffering humorously.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sometime the god believes in you suffering humorously.

Or is using you as a pawn in its divine games. I've got a whole sect of clerics and other divinely-empowered individuals who are actually just part of a punchline in a long-running practical joke among the gods. They think they're empowered by one god (and so the god must approve of their actions), when really she's horrified about the whole thing and the actual sponsor is using them to troll her. Because he's kinda a jerk.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Humorous and canonical - Clerics are empowered by choice of the deity, it doesn't say the cleric necessarily had a choice in the matter.


As an aside, this is one of the things I look to when players want to add cleric to a character - what has the PC done that has garnered the interest of a divinity? Faith and acting in ideals (whether God of Heroism or a Greater-demonic-entity-with-a-god-certificate) seems like a good way to go. So does atonement. Piss a god off enough, it might make you a cleric and give you a mission. Or make you a Warlock. Hmm...

And yet it can work that way. Cannonically The Traveler of Wildmount never wanted to be a god or even have clerics. He was helping out people who interested him, thinking he'd end up with Warlocks and then... Boom, divine faith sprang from nothing. It's kind of a major plot point in the story that spawned the Campaign setting.

Similarly, once upon a time, one of the prevailing theories of why the Lady of Pain does not want worshippers and actively kills anyone who does worship her is because it could make her a god without her consent and she'd get kicked out of Sigil.

[Unoriginal]

And yet it can work that way. Cannonically The Traveler of Wildmount never wanted to be a god or even have clerics. He was helping out people who interested him, thinking he'd end up with Warlocks and then... Boom, divine faith sprang from nothing. It's kind of a major plot point in the story that spawned the Campaign setting.

Not quite what happened with the Traveler. Once he was allowed back on Exandria via his pact with Vox Machina, he deliberately pretended to be a full-on god, and in about one-decade-and-half he had enough followers believing in him that his lie threatened to become a truth (which, given the rules gods have to follow on Exandria, would have locked him out of the world once again).




Similarly, once upon a time, one of the prevailing theories of why the Lady of Pain does not want worshippers and actively kills anyone who does worship her is because it could make her a god without her consent and she'd get kicked out of Sigil.

It is true that if you become a god, you are now subject to all the rules deities have to follow. Several entities who could become gods avoid doing so to avoid that fate.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Not quite what happened with the Traveler. Once he was allowed back on Exandria via his pact with Vox Machina, he deliberately pretended to be a full-on god, and in about one-decade-and-half he had enough followers believing in him that his lie threatened to become a truth (which, given the rules gods have to follow on Exandria, would have locked him out of the world once again).

We're on the same page, just focusing on different aspects. He did proclaim himself a god, but he didn't think that'd actually turn him into one. Hence is "I have no idea what I'm doing" comment to his high priest. He never intended to actually be a god. The faith people had was going to force it if he didn't do something.



It is true that if you become a god, you are now subject to all the rules deities have to follow. Several entities who could become gods avoid doing so to avoid that fate.

As an aside to that. Do we know of anything that grants divine magic that doesn't have to abide by the god rules? (Not concepts or forces, but actual beings). Could Bahamut as 5e Declares him or Asmodeus walk through a portal into Sigil? I'd ask about some of the other exemplars but 5E has been weird about acknowledging a lot of them.

[Unoriginal]

As an aside to that. Do we know of anything that grants divine magic that doesn't have to abide by the god rules? (Not concepts or forces, but actual beings).

Not to my knowledge.



Could Bahamut as 5e Declares him or Asmodeus walk through a portal into Sigil? I'd ask about some of the other exemplars but 5E has been weird about acknowledging a lot of them.

Asmodeus absolutely couldn't. Bahamut most likely couldn't, because he is still a god in the end, but I suppose he could attempt to shenanigan his way into the town by separating the dragon aspect from the divine aspect. Wouldn't be the first time entities tried that.

[Millstone85]

Similarly, once upon a time, one of the prevailing theories of why the Lady of Pain does not want worshippers and actively kills anyone who does worship her is because it could make her a god without her consent and she'd get kicked out of Sigil.Except that she is the one who has been kicking the gods out of Sigil, ever since her conflict with a deity of portals who used to reside there.

Now, an incentive for avoiding divinity would be the risk of losing divinity, which may come with some sort of faith withdrawal symptom: You become a petrified vestige floating in the Astral, and githyanki might build a city on you.

[Naanomi]

While 4e and 5e sort of ignore this, traditionally Godhood wasn't all positives (it made you beholden to faith, attackable through your worshipers, bound to your divine realm, put you on the radar of higher spiritual beings, made other Gods grumpy, etc) and several beings had plans and put effort in avoiding accidentally becoming a God (including pre-4e Asmodeus, but also Primus and a few other planar bigwigs)

[Tanarii]

Humorous and canonical - Clerics are empowered by choice of the deity, it doesn't say the cleric necessarily had a choice in the matter.
This is one of my favorite parts of 5e lore. Clerics who aren't even sure why their deity chose them, aren't even particularly devout, and don't actively go around trying to accomplish their deities goals ... but still manage to do exactly that just by being themselves and doing what they do, and choosing to embrace use of the deific power granted to them.

An interesting variant of that would be: the PCs deity isn't really even who they thought it was all along

A variant that ought to make the PC a little nervous about what's going on: granted power by an malevolent deity and Pc appears to be successfully using it to thwart the deities goals, but for some reason they just keep granting power

[PhoenixPhyre]

@Tanarii, that faction of clerics I mentioned who were being used as part of a divine practical joke? That was founded by a cleric who thought he was empowered by the goddess of hearth, family, and motherhood. But really was sponsored by the trickster god. Never came up in the campaign because it was short, but makes a difference now that he's an NPC.

[JackPhoenix]

Except that she is the one who has been kicking the gods out of Sigil, ever since her conflict with a deity of portals who used to reside there.

To be fair, she would've kicked archdevils too. She doesn't want anything too powerful in her city, it tends to create a mess.

[Naanomi]

To be fair, she would've kicked archdevils too. She doesn't want anything too powerful in her city, it tends to create a mess.
Yeah, she will boot or bar anything too disruptive; which has included things like 'physically way too big to fit in the city' monsters and 'any chronomancers regardless of level', not only Gods.