OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Yxylu]

So… for those of us working in transcriptions, what is Roy saying there? I can figure out some of it, and, oh boy. NSFW.

[Ionathus]

Ah, well. Goodbye, canyon ambush plan. You were the best idea they had at the time, but dramatically unsatisfying and, therefore, completely doomed from the start :D

[FlawedParadigm]

I can see enough to tell at least three of those words are NSFW, four if you work anywhere religious.

I'm curious about the rest, but if we get them in any form, I imagine it will be the book.

[Jacky720]

Losing your cool there, Roy. You may have just missed an opportunity there, but Xykon will go into another tunnel eventually. It's not like Haley's special disarming is a one-of-a-kind deal, and you can access all the swap-overs from here, right?

... will Xykon go into another tunnel now that he's on guard?

[hroþila]

I wonder if they could capture Redcloak quickly now that Xykon is not there and disappear before anyone can do anything about it. Not that I think that's what will happen, but hey.

[HUMVEE Driver]

For once, Roy should cool it. I think if he replied rationally they'd get further. Roy knows better. Stop responding emotionally! Time to think, Roy.

Putting that aside, great strip! Another good one. Good to see some cooperation. Elan steals the show, as usual!

[Dragonus45]

This might be the best punchline in years. I'm being looked at funny in the office now. I do wonder if there still isn't an opportunity to jump Xykon while he is alone and without clerical backup though.

[Murk]

Who is that crayon-drawn dragon standing next to I assume Kraagor and Serini?

[Schroeswald]

There’s a decent amount of focus on those pictures there, it feels like that’s going to be important beyond the jokes stuff. Especially that Serini and Kraagor with the dragon thing because I don’t think we’ve seen that scene before…

[3SecondCultist]

I mean... this is also a great opportunity, isn't it? Xykon just implied out loud that he's A) burnt at least a few spell slots, given the "nothing left for us to kill" line, and B) will be alone for presumably a few more minutes, since the rest of Team Evil is "[playing] junior detective," which presumably involves making a whole buttload of skill checks and burning even more spell slots.

If the Order, plus Serini and Team Paladin, can haul their respective behinds to the canyon, they could theoretically all try to defeat Xykon right away. It would be challenging, but they have never had an opportunity to fight him alone while they are at nearly full strength. The action advantage in that combat alone would be immensely in their favour.

Assuming they win, they could approach Redcloak to negotiate from a position of strength, just like Julia suggested.

[RMS Oceanic]

More like AngRoy, am I right

[Kurald Galain]

I wonder if they could capture Redcloak quickly now that Xykon is not there and disappear before anyone can do anything about it.
I was thinking that too. "Don't Split The Party" also applies to the bad guys.


So… for those of us working in transcriptions, what is Roy saying there?
He's clearly spotted a DUCK!

[Ivrytwr]

Ah, Roy's frustration gives me the giggles.
I was worried for a minute that the gang was going to get effective. They should have this all figures out in another dozen or so encounters with Xykon.
Thanks Giant!

[Soleyfir]

Is that a drawing of the Snarl on the wall? Pretty cute.

[Jacky720]

So… for those of us working in transcriptions, what is Roy saying there? I can figure out some of it, and, oh boy. NSFW.
The last bubble is probably "Cussing piece of cuss!"


Assuming they win, they could approach Redcloak to negotiate from a position of strength, just like Julia suggested.
They could plan on that. But it would also bring down some plot hooks that they don't know about, like Xykon yelling at Redcloak from the second amulet in his pocket about how screwed they all are.

[Sybarith]

Oof. You said it, Roy.

Still, a rush plan isn't narratively right here anyway, so even Elan could have told you it wouldn't have worked for some reason.

[RMS Oceanic]

Who is that crayon-drawn dragon standing next to I assume Kraagor and Serini?

I assume Serini has told Sunny stories about her adventures, and sometimes you like to draw stuff from stories you've enjoyed.

[Tundar]

Someone needs to get better at dart. Hehehehe

[Duncun]

Losing your cool there, Roy. You may have just missed an opportunity there, but Xykon will go into another tunnel eventually. It's not like Haley's special disarming is a one-of-a-kind deal, and you can access all the swap-overs from here, right?

... will Xykon go into another tunnel now that he's on guard?

Unless the junior sleuths find the swap over trap.

[littlebum2002]

Losing your cool there, Roy. You may have just missed an opportunity there, but Xykon will go into another tunnel eventually. It's not like Haley's special disarming is a one-of-a-kind deal, and you can access all the swap-overs from here, right?

... will Xykon go into another tunnel now that he's on guard?

I mean, even if he won't, he still used a lot of spells in that tunnel and will be weaker now than on any other day. I dont understand why they think their entire upper hand is lost just from im leaving the tunnel.

Durkon alerting Team Evil to the Order's presence is both good and bad IMHO. The bad part is that Team Evil is unlikely to do multiple tunnels in a day anymore, since they know they can be ambushed at any time. But if they're only doing one tunnel a day, then that means it will take much longer for them to figure out they've been conned, and that means more time that the gate is safe.

[hamishspence]

Sunny's telekinesis having been used this way is clever.

[dancrilis]

I am dubious as to if Serini would have agreed with revealing her trap in an ambush anyway - she has been maintaining it for decades after all and the Order's plan seems far from a sure thing.

[brian 333]

I am now curious as to whether those thought bubbles are superimposed over Roy's rant bubbles, and whether the original speech bubbles can be recovered? The FBI should get someone working on removing the top layer so we can see what lies beneath!

(Masterful storycrafting here, and much more powerful than simple blue language rants or "censored" stamps would have been.)

Xykon is nowhere near finding the gate, which is good news, and Sunny does not sleep. Any new tidbits of info I missed?

[Fyraltari]

Wow, Roy! There's a child present, you can't just yell "SQUEAK" at the top of your lungs like that!

But also, yeah, we all figured something like that was bound to happen.

[Murk]

I assume Serini has told Sunny stories about her adventures, and sometimes you like to draw stuff from stories you've enjoyed.

That's true - I would be surprised if Sunny had personally seen the Snarl, too.
But especially with the colour scheme and the Girard family, I thought maybe the dragon would be familiar. My OoTS lore isn't as up to date as it should be anymore.

[Zhorn]

That censoring on the last panel, brilliant.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I guess the Scribbler lore had to have some reason to be brought up soon if nothing else. :smallsigh:

In addition, the "Serini did literally nothing wrong" gang can go eat their socks.

[Frozenstep]

Roy's had a pretty stressful day so far. Poor guy needs some time to vent.

Sunny's Crayon drawings are pretty cool! If they have crayons, though, I assume this means they have a way to teleport back to civilization to buy them? It can't be practical to travel across the open artic field every time just to buy stuff.

[El_Chupacabra]

Did anyone else notice the art error where the speech bubbles cover each other in the last panel? Really obscures what's being said.

[Ron Miel]

Who is that crayon-drawn dragon standing next to I assume Kraagor and Serini?

Girard's introducing them to his grandmother.

[danielxcutter]

Roy's had a pretty stressful day so far. Poor guy needs some time to vent.

Sunny's Crayon drawings are pretty cool! If they have crayons, though, I assume this means they have a way to teleport back to civilization to buy them? It can't be practical to travel across the open artic field every time just to buy stuff.

That sounds kinda sus - (*gets stabbed*)


Did anyone else notice the art error where the speech bubbles cover each other in the last panel? Really obscures what's being said.

That's the joke.

[Crusher]

Scribble vs Snarl? Hmm. Either would be thematically appropriate.

[Fyraltari]

Girard's introducing them to his grandmother.

Unlikely. Girard's grandparent was black and still had both horns when the pyramid was built. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html)
I think this is an unrelated dragon.

Then again maybe it's nothing and The Giant wanted more variety in Sunny's drawings/is meesing with our collective heads.

[mjasghar]

The perfect excuse for the 2 parties to rest and respell. And let’s Serini use 5 or 6 comics to do some Scribbler backstory exposition

[carrion pigeons]

I am now curious as to whether those thought bubbles are superimposed over Roy's rant bubbles, and whether the original speech bubbles can be recovered? The FBI should get someone working on removing the top layer so we can see what lies beneath!

(Masterful storycrafting here, and much more powerful than simple blue language rants or "censored" stamps would have been.)

Xykon is nowhere near finding the gate, which is good news, and Sunny does not sleep. Any new tidbits of info I missed?

Seems like the critical issue is that Redcloak and co are "playing sleuth", meaning that they and Xykon are split up, and also that the teleportation trap is more likely to be discovered.

[King of Nowhere]

why is xykon going out so bad?
they will return tomorrow, and can be ambushed again. it will give time to the other to rest, because they also spent many resources in this fight.

yes, ok, I know narrative causality will cause something else to happen.But Roy don't.

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy knows better. Stop responding emotionally! Time to think, Roy. last time he responded that emotionally he got his sword back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1078.html).

More like AngRoy, am I right Nice.

I was worried for a minute that the gang was going to get effective. Yeah, can't be going off piste like that.

Girard's introducing them to his grandmother. Dos centavos wagered on this being correct.

Last panel was very well done. Thanks Giant.

[Beni-Kujaku]

why is xykon going out so bad?
they will return tomorrow, and can be ambushed again. it will give time to the other to rest, because they also spent many resources in this fight.

yes, ok, I know narrative causality will cause something else to happen.But Roy don't.

Because Xykon will probably not go in a tunnel as unprepared and rushed as he did right now, because they might now put some sort of alarm to not get ambushed next time, and the OotS can't be ahead of them again, and especially because they now know something fishy is going on and they have a pretty high chance of finding Serini's hideout!

[Breccia]

Wow, Roy turning the air so blue, I was worried they were coming out of an illusion spell.

[Shining Wrath]

Nothing can ever be easy, Roy. Especially not if we want this to last for an entire book. :smallsmile:

The part about "Junior Detective" is worrysome, though. Did the OotS leave some clue of their passage further into the tunnel?

[Gift Jeraff]

Who is that crayon-drawn dragon standing next to I assume Kraagor and Serini?

I assume that's just Sunny making a drawing based on Sereni's stories about Kraagor fighting powerful monsters, which is the whole theme of the dungeon.

[Edward15]

I have just one reaction to Roy's bleep out in that last panel:
XD! XD! XD! XD! XD!

Well, on the plus side, at least Seirini messing up their ambush didn't lead to Xykon learning about the teleportation runes. That would've been a REAL reason to swear like crazy!

[Resileaf]

Roy is officially voiced by Samuel L. Jackson.

Also loooots of people here seem to have forgotten that there is a half-scorch mark on the ground where Haley used her rat head to disarm the portal and there's no way Redcloak won't notice it and realize what's been going on all along. The tunnel is not going to be a secret any longer.

[hroþila]

That's the joke.
That's the joke.

[BriarHobbit]

Roy is definitely feeling the stress of the moment. His stress levels are going to go up when the Three Fiends's hit team bypasses Serini's defenses. Of course, with V acting as a spy camera for the Three Fiends, they have no incentive to unleash their team prematurely.

[snowblizz]

I assume Serini has told Sunny stories about her adventures, and sometimes you like to draw stuff from stories you've enjoyed.

Shock twist. All the crayon art in the books is actually done by Sunny. Who is the narrator of our tale.

[Lexible]

Roy's large pile of F-bombs had my laughing out out several times over. Thank you, Giant.

[gerryq]

Is that a drawing of the Snarl on the wall? Pretty cute.

Yes, and it looks like a pretty accurate one. Which begs the question: when did Sunny see it, and what did Serini learn about it on their visit? My guess is that this will be significant... and I consider the fact that something immediately happened to draw attention away from it a bit of a tell for authorial misdirection!

[El_Chupacabra]

That sounds kinda sus - (*gets stabbed*)



That's the joke.

That's the joke :smallamused:

[El_Chupacabra]

... On a more serious note... it's too bad Roy didn't hear the part where Xykon says "you can stay inside, I'm staying here." Separated from his support. All alone.

[Coppercloud]

Nothing can ever be easy, Roy. Especially not if we want this to last for an entire book. :smallsmile:

The part about "Junior Detective" is worrysome, though. Did the OotS leave some clue of their passage further into the tunnel?

They did. They left footprints from the door to the teleportation trap, but nothing beyond that point. Belkar took the time to erase their tracks, but Oona is a skilled tracker, so if Team Evil takes the time to investigate she might find them anyway.

Unless I missed something, it is also possible that there were monsters in this dungeon too, especially considering Xykon's comment about "nothing left to kill". So Team Evil should be certain that the Order didn't in fact enter this tunnel. What they make of this knowledge is yet to be seen. In 1222 they were not certain that the Order went that way, but there are only a few other possible doors. Best case scenario, they deduce that the Order must have flown away.


Also loooots of people here seem to have forgotten that there is a half-scorch mark on the ground where Haley used her rat head to disarm the portal and there's no way Redcloak won't notice it and realize what's been going on all along. The tunnel is not going to be a secret any longer.
Thanks, I had, indeed, forgotten that detail.


I assume Serini has told Sunny stories about her adventures, and sometimes you like to draw stuff from stories you've enjoyed.
My thoughts exactly. It just seems like a small reference to the Order of the Scribble, to remind us that they had adventures before, too. I don't think it is significant at all, although I would be pleasantly surprised if the Giant proved me wrong in a later strip.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Some good lines in this one. :smallbiggrin:

[faustin]

On the plus side, Redcloak and Oona are still in the tunnels, with a few spell slot less and without the support of their lich boss.

Removing the epic level cleric who incidentally holds half of the ritual needed to control the gate is still a win, right?

[Aquillion]

I mean... this is also a great opportunity, isn't it? Xykon just implied out loud that he's A) burnt at least a few spell slots, given the "nothing left for us to kill" line, and B) will be alone for presumably a few more minutes, since the rest of Team Evil is "[playing] junior detective," which presumably involves making a whole buttload of skill checks and burning even more spell slots.

If the Order, plus Serini and Team Paladin, can haul their respective behinds to the canyon, they could theoretically all try to defeat Xykon right away. It would be challenging, but they have never had an opportunity to fight him alone while they are at nearly full strength. The action advantage in that combat alone would be immensely in their favour.

Assuming they win, they could approach Redcloak to negotiate from a position of strength, just like Julia suggested.Also, can't Serini just disable the teleport, temporarily stranding Redcloak and the rest of Team Evil inside the dungeon while the rest of the party fights Xykon?

[bunsen_h]

Roy may be saying "Frick!" It's been used (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) in the comic before.


Removing the epic level cleric who incidentally holds half of the ritual needed to control the gate is still a win, right?

Except that they need Redcloak alive, and willing and able to use a 9th-level spell slot. If he's "removed" in a fatal kind of way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM), they don't know if he'd be willing to come back, nor if he'd still be able to provide the spell slot after he lost that level due to dying.

[Schroeswald]

Just remembered, this door was supposed to be empty (had an X), but from Xykon’s lines it sounds like they had to kill some monsters during this whole thing. Which means that some more information is about to come out.

[Coppercloud]

Just remembered, this door was supposed to be empty (had an X), but from Xykon’s lines it sounds like they had to kill some monsters during this whole thing. Which means that some more information is about to come out.

Yep! In #1221, after going through the dungeon that they thought the dwarves were in, Redcloak pointed out that "the only logical conclusion is that the door was marked in error somehow" because they were active monsters in there. Then, he said "we need more data to determine the scale of the error with regard to the door marks. If we have the Dark One's luck with us, it'll be a one-off."

Now, they know it isn't. Which might lead to bad consequences for the MitD...

[Peelee]

Roy is officially voiced by Samuel L. Jackson.

Ah yes, the only man known to curse.

[The MunchKING]

Just remembered, this door was supposed to be empty (had an X), but from Xykon’s lines it sounds like they had to kill some monsters during this whole thing. Which means that some more information is about to come out.

I mean, they already knew the caves would regenerate monsters at some point.

[Resileaf]

Ah yes, the only man known to curse.

One of the only actors I know whom this is their trademark.

[Ionathus]

You know, on first read Roy's reaction felt pretty extreme to me. Not necessarily that he would be mad, but just how intensely he reacted and the language he's clearly using behind those telepathy-bubbles. It's jarring to think about main characters in OotS dropping anything spicier than a "goddammit" in conversation, even if I cuss pretty regularly in my own life. I think Kazumi's the only other one we've seen audibly swearing like this, and back then her text was just bleeped out with special characters, which felt a lot tamer.

This is not really that surprising or terrible of a setback, so the reaction seems disproportionate. Watching Miko kill Shojo, dying, Girard's deception in the desert, the Draketooths' deaths, Durkon's death, Durkon's betrayal at the Godsmoot, losing his sword in the pass, Durkon's rogue cleric summit with Redcloak...we've seen Roy react to all of these (much worse) events with more or less stoic grace even if he got a bit sad or angry. I'm not really used to seeing Roy swear like this so it's jarring.

But as I think more about it, I like it more and more. Roy's got to be feeling the stress of all of this. The quest has been an unending conga line of changing priorities and near-impossible odds. Every new development comes with a complication, every victory feels mixed or like it's just delaying the inevitable. The Order really can't catch a break. And now that they've finally spent a whole ton of resources and argument and headaches to broker an alliance with one of the original Scribblers, Roy is hoping to strike while the iron's hot and take maybe their best chance ever at killing Xykon. And then the window closes.

I've been in that position a lot, recently even more so. So tightly wound and stressed out that you bottle it up and then lose it at something that really shouldn't have been the breaking point. It feels very human, very relatable, and I really like the moment. I'd be interested in a bit more of a peek at Roy's psyche here, if the story chooses to go that way for a bit - I feel like there's a valuable exploration there of how being the Straight Man leading the plucky misfits who are saving the world would put an unbelievable amount of pressure on a person. Though I imagine it wouldn't linger there because unpacking the topics of stress and anger can get dark/unfunny quickly.

Maybe this just made a good punchline. Either way, I really enjoyed this strip on a variety of levels!

And yeah, Roy's curses being covered up by the telepathy bubbles is a terribly clever narrative trick. Great pacing in that punchline.

[KorvinStarmast]

His stress levels are going to go up when the Three Fiends's hit team bypasses Serini's defenses. Of course, with V acting as a spy camera for the Three Fiends, they have no incentive to unleash their team prematurely. heh, I like your take on this.

Shock twist. All the crayon art in the books is actually done by Sunny. Who is the narrator of our tale. But he calls the story "My Favorite OoTS" (just as Bilbo called The Hobbit "There and Back Again" ...)

[Ornithologist]

Same, Roy. Same.

[arimareiji]

I've been in that position a lot, recently even more so. So tightly wound and stressed out that you bottle it up and then lose it at something that really shouldn't have been the breaking point. It feels very human, very relatable, and I really like the moment. I'd be interested in a bit more of a peek at Roy's psyche here, if the story chooses to go that way for a bit - I feel like there's a valuable exploration there of how being the Straight Man leading the plucky misfits who are saving the world would put an unbelievable amount of pressure on a person. Though I imagine it wouldn't linger there because unpacking the topics of stress and anger can get dark/unfunny quickly.

Imagine what being part of, if not leading, the Scribblers did to Soon. I get the feeling they made Elan's hijinks look like 3D chess thoughtful teamwork.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So it seems like the optimal tactic would be to disable the switchovers and fight Xykon alone. For people that know 3.5e well, I have some questions.

If they don't have Sunny, would Xykon be able to just fly away if he thinks he might lose?

Without Sunny, would Xykon be able to render Roy useless by flying?

I'm guessing V would cast dimensional anchor on Xykon to prevent him teleporting away. Is that a sure thing if V isn't exhausted (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)? I'd assume it's easily dispel-able, but Xykon may not have two rounds to escape (or three if V reapplies it immediately after the dispel).

If Sunny is there, Xykon would be able to walk outside the antimagic cone, and cast any spell with a standard action (almost all) before Sunny can move the cone?

If Xykon figures out the spell splitter thing, could he start each turn by walking out of Roy's threatened area (taking an AoO), but then cast unmolested?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Honestly i can see Xykon leaving being almost a good thing, now they can potentially get the jump on the less powerful members of team evil, 'Don't split the party' is a game that works both ways.

[Schroeswald]

Yep! In #1221, after going through the dungeon that they thought the dwarves were in, Redcloak pointed out that "the only logical conclusion is that the door was marked in error somehow" because they were active monsters in there. Then, he said "we need more data to determine the scale of the error with regard to the door marks. If we have the Dark One's luck with us, it'll be a one-off."

Now, they know it isn't. Which might lead to bad consequences for the MitD...

Oh yeah I forgot that but, it’s been a year since that comic came out so my memory is getting fuzzy.

[Peelee]

One of the only actors I know whom this is their trademark.

....you wanna put money on that?

ETA: sorry, didn't see "that I know". Suffice it to say, there are a lot of others.

[JonahFalcon]

So… for those of us working in transcriptions, what is Roy saying there? I can figure out some of it, and, oh boy. NSFW.

I see some cluster bombs.


Honestly i can see Xykon leaving being almost a good thing, now they can potentially get the jump on the less powerful members of team evil, 'Don't split the party' is a game that works both ways.

Oona will be replacing Redcloak as the Crimson Mantle.

[Thermophille]

I'd just like to point out that even though we the readers know that Xykon is separated from his group, Blackwing didn't mention it, and as such the characters wouldn't know about it.

[Ionathus]

....you wanna put money on that?

It's not an unreasonable joke. Samuel L. Jackson is widely known for playing roles where he's a potty mouth - something about having had enough with certain snakes on certain planes comes to mind, for starters.

[Rinazina]

why is xykon going out so bad?
they will return tomorrow, and can be ambushed again. it will give time to the other to rest, because they also spent many resources in this fight.

yes, ok, I know narrative causality will cause something else to happen.But Roy don't.

Roy swear for a good reason!
He might now rationally know it, but just few pages away, there are two junior Sherlock Holmes who are going to get some XPs;

We're going to witness the same secret, kept for 50 years, defeated for the second time in just one hour.
Reddy, Oona and Grumpydoggo, might in fact spot a suspicious explosion stain on the floor, oddly, precisely cut in half.
And if you inspect closely what is cutting in half that explosion leftover, you'll spot a tiny line of runes inscribed by a younger Serini.

For our perceptions, instead, it looks like this:

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/89555/168394756-86fd90d5-77ae-494c-bef3-48d439c5e240.png

Talky man, deep inside of his, knows it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Grumpydoggo
That would be Greyview (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), amigo.
You get no treat. :smalltongue:

[Ruck]

Who is that crayon-drawn dragon standing next to I assume Kraagor and Serini?


I assume Serini has told Sunny stories about her adventures, and sometimes you like to draw stuff from stories you've enjoyed.

Yeah, I figure it's probably something like that. Not everything has to have a hidden meaning.


Roy is officially voiced by Samuel L. Jackson.


Ah yes, the only man known to curse.

It probably would be odd to have a 73-year-old actor voice a 29-year-old character.

[Peelee]

It's not an unreasonable joke. Samuel L. Jackson is widely known for playing roles where he's a potty mouth - something about having had enough with certain snakes on certain planes comes to mind, for starters.

Not really? Imean, sure, he's memes about it a lot, but he's hardly the only one, or even the most prolific one (which is impressive, since he's not terribly picky about his roles, to the point that there's a joke in Hollywood - How do you get Sam Jackson to be in one of your movies? You ask him".)

It's like watching someone do martial arts and then saying "well, it's official, Chuck Norris is that person's voice". Sure, he's known for that and has a lot of memes about it, but he's hardly alone.

[InvisibleBison]

If they don't have Sunny, would Xykon be able to just fly away if he thinks he might lose?

Without Sunny, would Xykon be able to render Roy useless by flying?

Absent Sunny's antimagic ability, Xykon could fly away. However, Haley has a wand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html) of fly (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm), which if she thinks to cast it on the Order would make them faster and more maneuverable than Xykon, who I believe typically (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) uses overland flight (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm) due to its longer duration.


I'm guessing V would cast dimensional anchor on Xykon to prevent him teleporting away. Is that a sure thing if V isn't exhausted (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)? I'd assume it's easily dispel-able, but Xykon may not have two rounds to escape (or three if V reapplies it immediately after the dispel).

We don't really have a good sense for what Xykon's touch AC is like, but I'd guess there's at least a 50% chance of V hitting him with dimensional anchor. However, Xykon is capable of casting either quickened dispel magic (if he knows the spell) or quickened greater teleport, either of which would allow him to escape in a single round should he feel the need.


If Sunny is there, Xykon would be able to walk outside the antimagic cone, and cast any spell with a standard action (almost all) before Sunny can move the cone?

That depends on how close to Xykon Sunny is. Cones in D&D are a quarter-circle with a radius of a given size; for a beholder's antimagic cone, the radius is 150 feet. If Sunny stays far enough away from Xykon, the edges of the cone will be more than 30 feet away from him, so he won't be able to move outside in a single turn.


If Xykon figures out the spell splitter thing, could he start each turn by walking out of Roy's threatened area (taking an AoO), but then cast unmolested?

The Spellsplinter Maneuver is something the Giant made up for the comic, so we can't speak with certainty about its mechanics. It's possible that Xykon could move out of Roy's threatened area, either through normal movement or by taking a 5-foot step; on the other hand, there may be some aspect of the Spellsplinter Maneuver feat that allows Roy to move to keep up with Xykon. We won't know until we see it in action.

[Crisis21]

I think we've all been in this moment in a campaign where the party is starting to come up with a solid plan and the DM just casually goes "well, actually..." and derails everything they were thinking of like the players have been derailing the DM's plot.

[danielxcutter]

I think we've all been in this moment in a campaign where the party is starting to come up with a solid plan and the DM just casually goes "well, actually..." and derails everything they were thinking of like the players have been derailing the DM's plot.

If this was an actual game, which quite fortunately it’s not, the DM must be a total ass.

[Velaryon]

Unlikely plot twist: all the crayon drawings in the entire comic are by Sunny.

[bunsen_h]

If this was an actual game, which quite fortunately it’s not, the DM must be a total ass.

That kind of depends on whether it's because the DM has just come up with something arbitrary, to spite the players or to keep things on the rails, or if there are factors that the DM had already determined (https://www.gocomics.com/bloomcounty/1985/02/10) which make that plan infeasible.

[KishouTheBadger]

Serini had to ruin a good thing. The Order of the Stick's bad luck strikes again.

[PattThe]

Ha, we were wondering if Senri would ever actually help the party.
Now that she's on their side Roy just had to get screwed over by timing and now he will blame Senri Sunny and the rest of the party for wasting time.

ALSO SNARL DRAWING

[Robots]

Roy swore! Awesome!

Oh, uh, good strip too I guess.

[Tsriel]

Roy completely losing his **** is both refreshing and disturbing, but also equally hilarious.

[tanonx]

Ah yes, the only man known to curse.

You mean the most popular actor whose most iconic style happens to match Roy's (insofar as Roy has style, or defining features), pulls off convincing combat scenes with two-handed blades (that glow), and has over a dozen appearances playing the straight-faced leader who alternates between corralling chaotic teams and snarking at the absurdity that surrounds him (and even dies fighting the villain, but not directly by their hand, then comes back to life after the remaining party members go on a quest)?

Doesn't sound like Roy. Roy curses a lot. Roy should be played by Jonah Hill. He's the record-holder, after all.

[herrhauptmann]

It's not an unreasonable joke. Samuel L. Jackson is widely known for playing roles where he's a potty mouth - something about having had enough with certain snakes on certain planes comes to mind, for starters.
Did you notice when they use the microwave, they hit the "snake" button?


Yeah, I figure it's probably something like that. Not everything has to have a hidden meaning.

It probably would be odd to have a 73-year-old actor voice a 29-year-old character.
Why not, pretty sure he voiced Afro Samurai. A guy whose primary line is "Shut up."

[brian 333]

You know, on first read Roy's reaction felt pretty extreme to me. Not necessarily that he would be mad, but just how intensely he reacted and the language he's clearly using behind those telepathy-bubbles.

Roy has spent his life dealing with a problem he didn't create, and he was less than fifteen minutes away from completing his quest. How much longer will he have to wait to get as good a chance again?

[enh]

(Masterful storycrafting here, and much more powerful than simple blue language rants or "censored" stamps would have been.)

Agreed! It's rare that this medium gives opportunities of communication to the audience/reader that simply can't happen in others. (Or rather, it gives those opportunities all the time, but it's rare that the creator takes such skillful advantage of it.)

[danielxcutter]

That kind of depends on whether it's because the DM has just come up with something arbitrary, to spite the players or to keep things on the rails, or if there are factors that the DM had already determined (https://www.gocomics.com/bloomcounty/1985/02/10) which make that plan infeasible.

I was thinking about stuff like uh, the entirety of the DStP arc for one.


Roy has spent his life dealing with a problem he didn't create, and he was less than fifteen minutes away from completing his quest. How much longer will he have to wait to get as good a chance again?

Which is what they literally mentioned right AFTER that part you quoted?

[gatemansgc]

language roy, LANGUAGE!

[Peelee]

You mean the most popular actor whose most iconic style happens to match Roy's?

Doesn't sound like Roy. Roy curses a lot. Roy should be played by Jonah Hill. He's the record-holder, after all.

...Roy curses a lot? He barely curses at all, except for this one scene. Would you also say that Roy dates a lot of sylphs? Roy dies a lot? Roy insults fortune tellers mothers a lot? You're extrapolating a huge amount here.

Notwithstanding that Sam Jackson's "iconic style" is more akin to "plays the same character in most movies he's in and and curses when the script tells him to", of course.

[gatemansgc]

... On a more serious note... it's too bad Roy didn't hear the part where Xykon says "you can stay inside, I'm staying here." Separated from his support. All alone.

yeah that would be too easy though!

[Liquor Box]

Ambushing team evil when they emerged from the cave was a good plan and that's been ruined now.

But I wonder if the present tactical situation may be even better with Xykon and the rest of team evil being apart from one another. They are still withing shouting distance now, but there seems to be a chance that Xykon will wander off and isolate himself. So might attacking either Xykon, or his allies, separately be even better than ambushing the party together?

I wonder if they can somehow disable to the teleport function and make it even more difficult for the two parts of the team to reconnect.

[JT]

I wonder if they can somehow disable to the teleport function and make it even more difficult for the two parts of the team to reconnect.

If Serini could strand groups of people trying to find the gate by disabling the teleport -- leaving the baddies in a dungeon full of high-level monsters, with no physical or magical escape -- I don't think she would have just run a delay game against Xykon and company.

[danielxcutter]

Also, Cleric spells can help them get back easily anyways. Plane Shift + Gate, Word of Recall, Miracle...

[Thermophille]

...Roy curses a lot? He barely curses at all, except for this one scene.

I do believe that mightn't have been the joke.

[aabicus]

Man, I feel like this thread has some sort of landspeed record for quantity of posters missing each other's jokes

[Vikenlugaid]

Who is that crayon-drawn dragon standing next to I assume Kraagor and Serini?

And why would Sunny draw Kraagor? did they meet? not to mention the snarl...

[Liquor Box]

Also, Cleric spells can help them get back easily anyways. Plane Shift + Gate, Word of Recall, Miracle...

If he happens to have any of those memorised.

[Michaeler]

I had to look back and check that the crayon pages didn't look like that. Would be too funny if Sunny ended up having drawn the whole comic.

[Sargraz]

Well, if the "junior detectives" don't find the trap there is always tomorrow
But of course, Redcloak knows something is wrong

I Wonder: If a line-trap was destroyed after someone has crossed it, would that trap them in a dungeon with no exit (barring teleport)?

[rasborry]

Dear lord, that's the loudest profanity I've ever heard!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fb6dbDwjR_s/mqdefault.jpg

[Mic_128]

And why would Sunny draw Kraagor? did they meet? not to mention the snarl...

It wouldn't be unlikely for Serini to have had story time with Sunny and told him about her adventures with the Scribbles, not to mention what the gate she's protecting is keeping locked away.

[ManuelSacha]

"I curse when it's appropriate."
--Simon Tam

[masamune1]

I think Roy is losing what little respect Serini was developing for him in this scene- she still doubts they can take Xykon and Roy thinking they can take them with just a well-coordinated but rushed ambush isn't going to win him any favours with her.

Hopefully she might have a better plan (that she doubts will work either but one that respects Xykon's power nevertheless) which will give a bit more meaning to this side-quest as we enter The Endgame.

Also, I guess now is a good time for O-Chul to mention they have a man on the inside.

[Arin]

This may be the ultimate nitpick, but... in a demonstrably polytheistic world, wouldn't it be godSdamn? :)

[masamune1]

This may be the ultimate nitpick, but... in a demonstrably polytheistic world, wouldn't it be godSdamn? :)

The world and all the gods were created by a single supreme god, a Giant.

Perhaps it should be "Rich dammit!"

[pendell]

:rollseyes: disappointed in Roy. First, because disappointment happens. In war, you can't get too attached to any one plan because things change, and change fast. Flexibility is key.

I've known military people. Those who lose their **** over stuff like this don't last long. Too excitable for anything serious.

Then, too, it's probably extremely fortunate for the order because if they had managed an impromptu ambush of Xykon and co in the tunnels, the likely result would be that Xykon would kill them all. Even with the order at near full strength and Team Evil drained from the tunnel monsters, the CR calculator still says "impossible".

OOTS cannot defeat Team Evil in a standup fight. They've tried repeatedly, lost every time since they left Dorukan's dungeon. The last time they fought Team Evil left after leaving them a summoned monster to contend with, and that proved to be a nontrivial encounter.

It's going to take cleverness and maybe some kind of Macguffin to see off Xykon. Maybe feed him to the snarl or something? I don't see One Rings to throw into any volcanoes, which is how these kind of stories usually get resolved.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Resileaf]

OOTS cannot defeat Team Evil in a standup fight.

Ambushing Team Evil when they come out of the tunnel is the opposite of a standup fight.

[masamune1]

Ambushing Team Evil when they come out of the tunnel is the opposite of a standup fight.

Yes, it's worse. It's standing with your back against a wall in an enclosed space against someone who can blast meteors out of his hands.

It was a pretty bad plan, to be honest.

[Resileaf]

Yes, it's worse. It's standing with your back against a wall in an enclosed space against someone who can blast meteors out of his hands.

It was a pretty bad plan, to be honest.

It's standing with your back against a tunnel, in an enclosed space, with every buff spell you can think of cast upon yourself, with an entire round where you can attack and the enemy can't do anything to defend itself. If the trap is deactivated when Xykon leaves and Redcloak and Oona are still in the tunnel behind him, it's also an ambush where Xykon is alone.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, it's worse. It's standing with your back against a wall in an enclosed space against someone who can blast meteors out of his hands.

It was a pretty bad plan, to be honest.

They know him well enough that they expect that to be the first spell he opens up with. There is absolutely no way they don't include a Mass Resist Energy(fire) in their buffs.

[Peelee]

I do believe that mightn't have been the joke.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/992/401/e37.png

[Wraithfighter]

:rollseyes: disappointed in Roy. First, because disappointment happens. In war, you can't get too attached to any one plan because things change, and change fast. Flexibility is key.

I've known military people. Those who lose their **** over stuff like this don't last long. Too excitable for anything serious.

First, its been a long day, and things have already been changing a lot beat after beat after beat. This is at least the fifth time he's had to massively adjust his plans based on new info or someone else doing something surprising/incredibly-stupid *just today*, I think he's allowed to be a mite frustrated.

Second, there's a general rule I have with webcomics: Don't take the final panel(s) too literally. Webcomics, particularly the ones that try to be funny every time, will often stretch a character's actions or attitudes or level of idiocy or whatever in the final panel to be in service of a joke. It still should be broadly in character, but it's going to be playing things up/down as needed in order to fit in a joke.

In this case? Roy having a curse-laden meltdown. It's not exactly out of character, but it's more in service of comedy than character in the end.

[Coppercloud]

Second, there's a general rule I have with webcomics: Don't take the final panel(s) too literally. Webcomics, particularly the ones that try to be funny every time, will often stretch a character's actions or attitudes or level of idiocy or whatever in the final panel to be in service of a joke. It still should be broadly in character, but it's going to be playing things up/down as needed in order to fit in a joke.

Even Belkar comments on this in 650: "You can't take anything I say in the last panel seriously!"

[Liquor Box]

OOTS cannot defeat Team Evil in a standup fight. They've tried repeatedly, lost every time since they left Dorukan's dungeon. The last time they fought Team Evil left after leaving them a summoned monster to contend with, and that proved to be a nontrivial encounter.

They've tried zero time since Dorukon's dungeon. Roy and enhanced V tried to solo Xykon and failed. Dorukan's dungeon is the only time the Order took on team evil, and they won.

Not disagreeing that Team Evil is more powerful and more likely to win a stand up fight, but your assessment of the history is misleading.


:rollseyes: disappointed in Roy. First, because disappointment happens. In war, you can't get too attached to any one plan because things change, and change fast. Flexibility is key.

I've known military people. Those who lose their **** over stuff like this don't last long. Too excitable for anything serious.
Perhaps when it happens because a neutral party springs an ambush for little reason a few curse words are more appropriate.

[pendell]

They've tried zero time since Dorukon's dungeon. Roy and enhanced V tried to solo Xykon and failed. Dorukan's dungeon is the only time the Order took on team evil, and they won.

Not disagreeing that Team Evil is more powerful and more likely to win a stand up fight, but your assessment of the history is misleading.


Perhaps when it happens because a neutral party springs an ambush for little reason a few curse words are more appropriate.

You're right. Roy has had a miserable day so I should definitely cut him some slack. That's serious, not sarcastic.

Still, I hope that after he's finished his scream therapy (https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/scream-therapy-science) -- which I agree, he needs -- I hope that he can sober up and look on the bright side.

1) No one in the Order is Dead . That is a significant step up from the last book.
2) The party is united. They aren't split and following three different subplots while he sits on a cloud being snarked at by his dad.
3) They are more powerful than they've ever been, not only in terms of level but in terms of new allies: They've acquired a second cleric, an epic-level rogue, two high-level paladins, and a collection of monster allies, including an eye ... tyrant? Doesn't seem right for Sunny's personality. Eye puppy, maybe?
4) They evaded combat with Team Evil. I know that there are some here arguing that they would have won the ambush battle, but as I said, I'm not convinced. Even with all their buffs Xykon is a very, very tough fight. To say nothing of Xykon+Redcloak+MITD. I'm not even counting Oona and her friend whose name I forget, but they aren't insignificant either.

punch in the numbers yourself (https://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/). Even in an ambush, this is a bad, bad matchup. I think the ambush+weakness of xykon cuts the difficulty level down from "impossible" to "extremely difficult", but I don't see this fight ending without at least half the party needing a trip to the local temple for a resurrection.

*Thinking*

How Is the OOTS going to defeat Team Evil?

Well, the first thing to consider is that Xykon may have left the caverns, but Redcloak and the other members are still in the cave. Time to indulge in some pawn grabbing? If they don't want to kill Redcloak in order to be able to deal with the Dark One, maybe they can beat him into submission, then tie&gag? I've never seen that he's taken Still Spell or silent casting feats.

Although, come to think of it, Redcloak is not the only possible channel to the Dark One. If they must kill him, take the Crimson Mantle and find another goblinoid cleric willing to literally shoulder the burden.

Another possibility is if O-chul is able to convince the MITD to defect during combat. While we don't know what it is yet, I'm not sure there's anything on OOTS world that can stand up to the MITD in a combat encounter. I suspect even Xykon's going to have trouble.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[mjasghar]

What 2nd cleric? They already have a 2nd cleric from the dwarf book, no extra one in this one.

[Vikenlugaid]

They know him well enough that they expect that to be the first spell he opens up with. There is absolutely no way they don't include a Mass Resist Energy(fire) in their buffs.
He knows that at least to of them are warded against fire so probably he will superb dispell first, and they know that he knows.

[Crimsonmantle]

I had to look back and check that the crayon pages didn't look like that. Would be too funny if Sunny ended up having drawn the whole comic.
Sunny is Rich?

[Crimsonmantle]

...Roy curses a lot? He barely curses at all, except for this one scene. Would you also say that Roy dates a lot of sylphs?

He's [sorry, can't read this part, Blackwing's speaking over it]ed more sylphs than anybody else I know taken together.

Samuel L Jackson is cleatly far too old for the role, though. Maybe we can get him to play Roy's dad?

[Fish]

*Thinking*

How Is the OOTS going to defeat Team Evil?
It's difficult to forecast. Rich probably has plot-related payoffs in mind, on which the battle will turn; I don't think he's the kind of writer who would ask us to believe in a few lucky rolls of the dice.

I think we can forecast a few plot points, but not with any accuracy; it's more likely we'll be able to say things that definitely won't happen than things which will.
Roy will probably be able to lay claim to defeating Xykon, whether or not this means "killed permanently." This would mean Eugene gets into Celestia and would have to fulfill his promise to stay away. (I find it unlikely that Eugene is kept out, because otherwise that promise has no payoff.)
The final battle probably won't be won by outside characters (eg, gods, Tarquin's gang, Julio Scoundrél, the IFCC), which would take a victory away from the protagonists.
There will probably be a falling out among Team Evil, otherwise the plot point with the phylactery has been set up to no purpose. Xykon may be temporarily destroyed, at least long enough for him to realize he's been betrayed.


But the actual how ... it could be any number of plot reveals in any combination of order.

[Jannoire]

What 2nd cleric? They already have a 2nd cleric from the dwarf book, no extra one in this one.

I guess, Minrah is that 2nd cleric that's mentioned.

I'm somewhat sure that the drawings of Sunny will get some attention further down the road and I'm all here for it. Cute beholder is cute

[Ruck]

It's difficult to forecast. Rich probably has plot-related payoffs in mind, on which the battle will turn; I don't think he's the kind of writer who would ask us to believe in a few lucky rolls of the dice.

I think we can forecast a few plot points, but not with any accuracy; it's more likely we'll be able to say things that definitely won't happen than things which will.
Roy will probably be able to lay claim to defeating Xykon, whether or not this means "killed permanently." This would mean Eugene gets into Celestia and would have to fulfill his promise to stay away. (I find it unlikely that Eugene is kept out, because otherwise that promise has no payoff.)
The final battle probably won't be won by outside characters (eg, gods, Tarquin's gang, Julio Scoundrél, the IFCC), which would take a victory away from the protagonists.
There will probably be a falling out among Team Evil, otherwise the plot point with the phylactery has been set up to no purpose. Xykon may be temporarily destroyed, at least long enough for him to realize he's been betrayed.


But the actual how ... it could be any number of plot reveals in any combination of order.

I do think there's room for that first point to go a few ways:

Eugene tries to disregard his promise and gets some kind of very firm reminder that he cannot (divine forces physically prevent him; attempting to do so gets him the boot from Celestia; something else I haven't thought of);
Eugene actually does not get into Celestia upon further review ("Usually your alignment can't change after death, but you've been so involved with the material world while you were waiting, that you're a special case... Now what have you been doing in that time?");
Something else I haven't thought of.

I think MITD will switch sides to turn the tide at a critical moment, not because O-Chul is in danger directly, but because he recognizes which side O-Chul is on and will do it just to save the good guys.

If my theory about MITD being a Protean is correct, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens with an exchange of dialogue like:

Xykon or Redcloak: What are you doing, you idiot?! You're one of the bad guys!
MITD: I can change.
I also expect

Belkar will die saving Hinjo's life, as Sangwaan predicted in a flashback in bonus Don't Split the Party strip #665b. Possibly with a tear-jerker line about how he'd better take good care of Mr. Scruffy.
I agree with point 2, although I think the good guys will have to have as much of the cavalry on hand as they can-- the paladins, O-Chul, Sunny, MITD eventually, perhaps others I'm forgetting.

Point 3, I think there will be something along those lines, because I think Xykon has to die and Redcloak has to live (at least long enough after the battle for the four-color sealing), but I also cannot say how I think it will happen yet.

EDIT: Now I'm thinking of who it would be funniest/most interesting for MITD to switch teams to save. Belkar, since he's the known Evil guy? ("We can't lose his cooking!") Vaarsuvius, for being the least charismatic and also one of the ones MITD hasn't interacted with? (That point takes Haley, Roy, and Belkar out; if you count the desert scene in #901, Vaarsuvius and Durkon weren't there, either.) I think Belkar might be the funniest, but Vaarsuvius might be the way to show the most growth from MITD. ("I don't know who the elf is, and they won't shut up and are pretty annoying, but... they seem to be important to the good guys, so I better help them.")

[Jaecp]

He knows that at least to of them are warded against fire so probably he will superb dispell first, and they know that he knows.

Him casting dispelling effects is better than him casting meteor swarm!


It wouldn't be unlikely for Serini to have had story time with Sunny and told him about her adventures with the Scribbles, not to mention what the gate she's protecting is keeping locked away.

Not to mention the statue! Surely he asked about it, being a curious kid type

[Sapphire Guard]

I kinda can't believe how casually Roy was ready to throw away the one edge they had, that Xykon didn't know about the switch. That's the main thing keeping him from the gate! Are the Order really ready to disable yet another gate's defences, on purpose this time?

[danielxcutter]

If my theory about MITD being a Protean is correct, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens with an exchange of dialogue like:

Xykon or Redcloak: What are you doing, you idiot?! You're one of the bad guys!
MITD: I can change.

Okay this is just perfect.

[The MunchKING]

It's difficult to forecast. Rich probably has plot-related payoffs in mind, on which the battle will turn; I don't think he's the kind of writer who would ask us to believe in a few lucky rolls of the dice.

Lucky rolls have made or broken fights before for the OotS. Why stop now? :smallbiggrin:

Mostly I'm thinking of the Domination rolls by the Vampires, but there's also Crystal sundering Hailey's bow or any of a number of other times.

[Ron Miel]

I had to look back and check that the crayon pages didn't look like that. Would be too funny if Sunny ended up having drawn the whole comic.


Sunny is Rich?


If he's Rich then why ain't he smart?

[Jannoire]

Belkar will die saving Hinjo's life, as Sangwaan predicted in a flashback in bonus Don't Split the Party strip #665b. Possibly with a tear-jerker line about how he'd better take good care of Mr. Scruffy.

I don't think this will come up, since said person is not around at the moment.

[Fyraltari]

[/SPOILER]

I don't think this will come up, since said person is not around at the moment.

Hinjo was last seen getting an update on the main plot and deciding to stop what he was doing in response. Wouldn't be surprised if he'd show up with the Katos in tow to lend a hand.

[KorvinStarmast]

If he's Rich then why ain't he smart? An oldie but goodie. :smallsmile:

We seem to be getting ahead of ourselves; Roy's frustration requires at least two strips laced with filler dialogue and hopefully a few jokes.

[pendell]

I guess, Minrah is that 2nd cleric that's mentioned.


Yes, Minrah was the person I had in mind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hroþila]

Pretty sure it's Miranda now.

[mjasghar]

Okay this is just perfect.

In my posts in the MitD I proposed that it is likely that one for thematic reasons

[arimareiji]

If he's Rich then why ain't he smart?


An oldie but goodie. :smallsmile:

We seem to be getting ahead of ourselves; Roy's frustration requires at least two strips laced with filler dialogue and hopefully a few jokes.

Wow. Thank you, I would have otherwise missed this jewel. XD

[AstralFire]

Although, come to think of it, Redcloak is not the only possible channel to the Dark One. If they must kill him, take the Crimson Mantle and find another goblinoid cleric willing to literally shoulder the burden.

While that's probably an angle I would be willing to hang everything on as a mortal who only has about a century tops for everyone they know and love, they specifically need a caster who can donate a 9th level spellslot.


Goblins are killed lots
Goblins haven't made any friends with the current war
Even at this point the order itself is not at 9th level spells and they're among the highest level adventurers

How are you going to guarantee you will *get* a priest of the Dark One who *has* ninth-level spells to donate if Redcloak is dead? I'm not sure Durkon (with both a much higher lifespan and pressure from his God) would go along with that solution unless they were out of options.

[Coppercloud]

How are you going to guarantee you will *get* a priest of the Dark One who *has* ninth-level spells to donate if Redcloak is dead?

Actually, if Redcloak dies, I see no reason why he wouldn't accept a resurrection, even if it is Durkon who casts the spell. If he gets some time to think in the afterlife, he might seize this last chance to make things right. Even if he's not convinced, he's got nothing to lose, unless he expects the Order to torture him. Even then, he could try to double-cross them and escape.
And if he gets to talk to the Dark One in the meantime, he could relay what Durkon told him earlier about the gods destroying the world and TDO not surviving. Likewise, he might not have believed it at first, but those new facts could give the Dark One food for thought.

[KorvinStarmast]

Actually, if Redcloak dies, I see no reason why he wouldn't accept a resurrection, even if it is Durkon who casts the spell.
That would be a cool resolution to Redcloak's rejection of Durkon's offer of peace talks.

[AstralFire]

I agree, that would be potentially quite interesting. I'm just not sure that's not more risk than Durkon is willing to take on as their next plan for taking on Team Evil.

[danielxcutter]

I mean it might be a nice contrast to the Draketooths(who were so paranoid and/or fanatical that they chose not to be rezzed despite Durkon being almost completely unrelated to the Guard).

[Peelee]

I mean it might be a nice contrast to the Draketooths(who were so paranoid and/or fanatical that they chose not to be rezzed despite Durkon being almost completely unrelated to the Guard).

That wasn't paranoia, though. They were in a hidden pyramid in the middle of the desert with the exact location only known to two people, and then they all die at once and very shortly afterwards a cleric with the exact alignment of the diggedly religious group they think will storm the gates comes along to their exact location and tries to raise them? That's suspicious as all get-out. Heck, in a void without context, trying to say "that was a separate group who still managed to find the pyramid in the middle of the desert despite having no actual coordinates for it!" sounds ridiculous.

Not to mention the unknown but true bits like "and also they were directly working with the nemesis group and also were being aided by an Evil tyrannical warlord and also one of the group is the one who massacred everyone".

[danielxcutter]

That wasn't paranoia, though. They were in a hidden pyramid in the middle of the desert with the exact location only known to two people, and then they all die at once and very shortly afterwards a cleric with the exact alignment of the diggedly religious group they think will storm the gates comes along to their exact location and tries to raise them? That's suspicious as all get-out. Heck, in a void without context, trying to say "that was a separate group who still managed to find the pyramid in the middle of the desert despite having no actual coordinates for it!" sounds ridiculous.

Not to mention the unknown but true bits like "and also they were directly working with the nemesis group and also were being aided by an Evil tyrannical warlord and also one of the group is the one who massacred everyone".

I mean, it wasn't THAT shortly afterwards I think? Wasn't it like two weeks ago or so?

[Jannoire]

I mean, it wasn't THAT shortly afterwards I think? Wasn't it like two weeks ago or so?

In the grand scheme of things, that is pretty shortly afterwards...

[arimareiji]

That wasn't paranoia, though. They were in a hidden pyramid in the middle of the desert with the exact location only known to two people, and then they all die at once and very shortly afterwards a cleric with the exact alignment of the diggedly religious group they think will storm the gates comes along to their exact location and tries to raise them? That's suspicious as all get-out. Heck, in a void without context, trying to say "that was a separate group who still managed to find the pyramid in the middle of the desert despite having no actual coordinates for it!" sounds ridiculous.

Not to mention the unknown but true bits like "and also they were directly working with the nemesis group and also were being aided by an Evil tyrannical warlord and also one of the group is the one who massacred everyone".

And that's a group who has a relatively rational basis, no less.

Any group who sincerely believes they're the heroes and insulates themselves from outside opinion is very likely to 1) end up with extreme opinions as they keep springboarding off each other with no contradiction, and 2) view outsiders who so much as disagree with those opinions as villains trying to trick them. The comic has at least two other examples that spring to mind for me; I'm curious what examples might jump to the minds of others.

It would be a really interesting twist if Redcloak could overcome this tendency... but I think he's been shut up in the confines of his own rationalizations far too long. He's nowhere near ready for such a change of heart just yet, and getting killed isn't going to improve anyone's disposition - let alone his.

[Fyraltari]

It would be a really interesting twist if Redcloak could overcome this tendency... but I think he's been shut up in the confines of his own rationalizations far too long. He's nowhere near ready for such a change of heart just yet, and getting killed isn't going to improve anyone's disposition - let alone his.

Getting killed would make him have a direct talk with The Dark One, which would probably be one of thr most significant even in his life.

Not sure which direction that would push him in, though.

[Fish]

Lucky rolls have made or broken fights before for the OotS. Why stop now? :smallbiggrin:

Sure, when they lose. That’s different. It wouldn’t be a satisfying ending (to me) if they just said, “Oh, I didn’t think that would work, but I rolled a 20, and another 20, and I got that weapon proc. Who knew?” It would take the agency away for their victory.


Getting killed would make him have a direct talk with The Dark One, which would probably be one of thr most significant even in his life.

Provided the Dark One exists at the moment Redcloak dies, yes. We are dealing with a god-destroying monstrosity being turned loose, after all.

And I’ve long suspected that Redcloak is now a cleric of a cause, more than he is a cleric representing any specific god; the Dark One has gone radio silent and may not be around. Maybe he’s on the other world?

[Fyraltari]

And I’ve long suspected that Redcloak is now a cleric of a cause, more than he is a cleric representing any specific god; the Dark One has gone radio silent and may not be around. Maybe he’s on the other world?
Jirix met The Dark One, remember?

[Ron Miel]

Jirix met The Dark One, remember?

Did he though?

It was a crayon story. Crayon is a symbol for unreliable narrator. Crayons contain parts that the speaker has misunderstood, plus significant omissions, exaggerations and outright lies.

Take his story with a pinch of salt.

[hroþila]

Thor seems to think the Dark One is very much around.

[Khay]

It seems fairly clear to me that there's something going on with the Dark One. The gods haven't talked to him in a few decades (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), and Redcloak has never had a direct chat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html)with him. We know from the Hel arc last book that the gods are perfectly capable of having extended conversations with their worshippers if they so choose, which means the Dark One has chosen not to. There's too much build-up here for that to just not end up meaning anything.

[Fyraltari]

Did he though?
Yes.


It was a crayon story. Crayon is a symbol for unreliable narrator. Crayons contain parts that the speaker has misunderstood, plus significant omissions, exaggerations and outright lies.

Take his story with a pinch of salt.
Crayon means some important context is missing, but so far nothing shown in crayon was clearly false. Something is definitely up with The Dark One (I half seriously believe he's in a scret conspiracy with Loki, Tiamat and Rat still) and hos lack of communication is suspicious as hell, but he was shown alive and kicking and The Giant said the window of opportunity to kill him has passed.

[The MunchKING]

Sure, when they lose. That’s different. It wouldn’t be a satisfying ending (to me) if they just said, “Oh, I didn’t think that would work, but I rolled a 20, and another 20, and I got that weapon proc. Who knew?” It would take the agency away for their victory.

Wasn't that how Hailey beat most of the Guild? Crit machining her way though everyone with her new bow that iced people over when she crits? :smallbiggrin:

[Vikenlugaid]

In the grand scheme of things, that is pretty shortly afterwards...
Specialy being in the afterlife were perception of time is weird, Roy thought he was only a day, so that draketooth should feel the same.


Did he though?

It was a crayon story. Crayon is a symbol for unreliable narrator. Crayons contain parts that the speaker has misunderstood, plus significant omissions, exaggerations and outright lies.

Take his story with a pinch of salt.
Maybe he lied to de goblins of gobbitopia, but are you saying that he lied to his supreme leader and mesiah? I don't think so.

[Carl]

Serini seems a little blase about the teleporting rune traps. I'd been wondering where the gate was and I've just come to the conclusion, It's not in any of the dungeons or the area behind the traps, (though there's doubtless a convincing fake), and after rechecking the comics, (main reason i'd been holding off on super definite declarations was a lack of idea of where it actually is and a lack of certainty about the area behind the traps), i realised: Whilst Krageors statue got shattered, the pedestal is still intact...

[Fyraltari]

Serini seems a little blase about the teleporting rune traps. I'd been wondering where the gate was and I've just come to the conclusion, It's not in any of the dungeons or the area behind the traps, (though there's doubtless a convincing fake), and after rechecking the comics, (main reason i'd been holding off on super definite declarations was a lack of idea of where it actually is and a lack of certainty about the area behind the traps), i realised: Whilst Krageors statue got shattered, the pedestal is still intact...

No offense, but this would be the worst hiding spot possible. Evidence for this is that this has been proposed over and over again ever since we got that shot of the ridge with all the doors. That statue is the first place anyone would look even before starting to go through the doors.

[brian 333]

It seems fairly clear to me that there's something going on with the Dark One. The gods haven't talked to him in a few decades (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), and Redcloak has never had a direct chat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html)with him. We know from the Hel arc last book that the gods are perfectly capable of having extended conversations with their worshippers if they so choose, which means the Dark One has chosen not to. There's too much build-up here for that to just not end up meaning anything.

That may be a case of Redcloak never using the Commune spell. In the thinly veiled allusion to romantic relationships, Redcloak admitted to giving TDO his space. I have learned the hard way that when one is interested in someone, one has to make the call. So, to extend the metaphor, TDO may 'like-like' Redcloak, but since Redcloak never calls TDO assumes Redcloak doesn't 'like-like' him. TDO doesn't want to ruin their friendship so he sticks to business and doesn't bug Redcloak, but he has secret dreams about how things might be if Redcloak were to call just to chat.

[yokyok]

Serini seems a little blase about the teleporting rune traps. I'd been wondering where the gate was and I've just come to the conclusion, It's not in any of the dungeons or the area behind the traps, (though there's doubtless a convincing fake), and after rechecking the comics, (main reason i'd been holding off on super definite declarations was a lack of idea of where it actually is and a lack of certainty about the area behind the traps), i realised: Whilst Krageors statue got shattered, the pedestal is still intact...

Interesting theory, but that's a "single bluff." Girard's gate relied on misdirection after all of the defenses in the form of traps and illusions, a "double bluff." If your theory were true, then Kraagor's gate would be protected only by misdirection.

Serini already uses misdirection, with the teleport traps. But that only helps insofar as it gives her the advantage in actually defending the gate when the misdirection is uncovered - which she does, only after the Order gets through the teleport traps. She took no action against them as long as her misdirection wasn't discovered.

Also, for what it's worth, the scenery behind the rift looks a bit different from the scenery behind the tomb (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

[Psyren]

It seems fairly clear to me that there's something going on with the Dark One. The gods haven't talked to him in a few decades (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), and Redcloak has never had a direct chat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html)with him. We know from the Hel arc last book that the gods are perfectly capable of having extended conversations with their worshippers if they so choose, which means the Dark One has chosen not to. There's too much build-up here for that to just not end up meaning anything.

It could just mean he's a jerk, even (especially?) towards the goblins that worship him. I guess it all depends on whether he knows/cares that he's gambling with all the goblins' lives or not.

Certainly he still exists or Redcloak wouldn't still be getting spells.

[danielxcutter]

A common theory is that Redcloak is too scared to ask TDO things directly.

[brian 333]

...She took no action against them as long as her misdirection wasn't discovered...

They were at the pole less than half an hour before she took action, which indicates that her trap room had been planned and prepared long before their arrival.

However, she did take action against the paladins before the OotS arrived, at a point some claim to be the trigger: the paladins were discussing the gate.

[Fyraltari]

They were at the pole less than half an hour before she took action, which indicates that her trap room had been planned and prepared long before their arrival.

However, she did take action against the paladins before the OotS arrived, at a point some claim to be the trigger: the paladins were discussing the gate.

The paladins were also discussing the arrival of the Order two days later*. Considering that her "trap room" was just a big cylindrical chamber with a couple of monsters in clever positions, I don't think it took much preparation.

*Yes, this means that O-Chul and Lien were unconscious for about two days. I guess they really needed a rest.

[CountDVB]

For once, Roy should cool it. I think if he replied rationally they'd get further. Roy knows better. Stop responding emotionally! Time to think, Roy.

Putting that aside, great strip! Another good one. Good to see some cooperation. Elan steals the show, as usual!

He can still vent out his frustrations given every curveball being thrown at them.

[Fish]

Jirix met The Dark One, remember?
Jirix claims to have. There was some reason why Rich decided not to show us the event in stickspace, like maybe a) the Dark One is tiny because he lacks the soul energy possessed by Thor b) the Dark One’s location would have given away something so Rich used crayons to be vague c) the Dark One is being operated like a marionette by the Snarl d) the Dark One didn’t say what Jirix claimed he said e) etc.

In any case, Redcloak can have long since converted to being a cleric of a cause even if the Dark One still lives. So it’s possible that when Redcloak dies he won’t see the Dark One because the Dark One isn’t truly his god any more.

[hroþila]

I think you guys take the significance of crayons a bit too far sometimes. Yes, they're mediated by a narrator in a way cutaway panels aren't, and thus they aren't necessarily a faithful representation of what happened, but that doesn't mean that they can't be. Take the story about Durkon's dad, for example - I'd wager it was true, and intended to be taken as truth.

I bet that the main reason for The Giant to use crayons is not that he wants to have an unreliable narrator to say something misleading, but that crayon drawings are cool and a fun change of pace. The unreliable narrator thing is just a bonus in some cases.

[Coppercloud]

Imagine for a second how the scene looks like to Serini, who doesn't know about Blackwing or the telepathic bond yet. Roy is talking about their plan, then stops mid-sentence and makes a face, Haley mutters "Oh no." and then Roys start cursing and shouting. It really looks like Roy is freaking out for no reason at all, and that is what Haley is reacting to.
I'm willing to bet Serini will comment on this in the next strip.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think it'll immediately cause her to turn on them right afterwards at least, that'd probably be very unfun for like everyone.

[Coppercloud]

I don't think it'll immediately cause her to turn on them right afterwards at least, that'd probably be very unfun for like everyone.

Oh, that's not what I meant. I just think Serini is going to say something like "what is the deal with your fighter, does he have issues?" or something before the Order explain what's going on. If it happen, it will probably be phrased better than this.*

*like: "What's going on in the bald head of this fighter of yours? Does it happen to him often, or only when he's planning a suicide mission?"

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, something like that.

[Ionathus]

Hinjo was last seen getting an update on the main plot and deciding to stop what he was doing in response. Wouldn't be surprised if he'd show up with the Katos in tow to lend a hand.

Yeah, there's author commentary in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished that hints at this.

In the intro to the Katos' story, Rich basically says (not a direct quote) "I wanted to check back in on the Katos because I like them as characters and their role in the story is largely finished...unlike Hinjo, who still has a major part to play." I definitely see him showing up at the North Pole...or time and space gets all wonky, and somehow he winds up in proximity to the plot without choosing to. Maybe the Twelve Gods intervene?


A common theory is that Redcloak is too scared to ask TDO things directly.

I buy into this theory, too. It introduces some nice tension and uncertainty, and implies a Redcloak who is so conflicted over his choices that he's afraid to hear what TDO actually thinks about them.


Jirix claims to have. There was some reason why Rich decided not to show us the event in stickspace, like maybe a) the Dark One is tiny because he lacks the soul energy possessed by Thor b) the Dark One’s location would have given away something so Rich used crayons to be vague c) the Dark One is being operated like a marionette by the Snarl d) the Dark One didn’t say what Jirix claimed he said e) etc.

In any case, Redcloak can have long since converted to being a cleric of a cause even if the Dark One still lives. So it’s possible that when Redcloak dies he won’t see the Dark One because the Dark One isn’t truly his god any more.

Emphasis mine. I'm guessing that reason is really much more simple than any of these theories: Redcloak is the "main" character in that scene, not Jirix, and it's far more narratively evocative for Redcloak to be shut out of the divine revelation. It keeps him in the dark, makes him feel excluded, maintains his conflictions, and allows for "I've...never spoken directly to my god" much later on in his cleric summit with Durkon, which is a powerful moment of vulnerability.

Basically, there's no need to invent entirely new theories for Jirix's crayon drawing revelation, because it already clearly serves a purpose in the story: showing the worldview of goblinoids while avoiding direct deific guidance for the conflicted "evil-for-a-good-cause" deuteragonist, because direct revelation and guidance given to Redcloak at that moment would muck up the fact that he has to feel alone and conflicted about it. There's a reason Zuko doesn't become a good guy until Iroh is out of the picture: he has to be alone with his feelings and decisions in order to truly make the decision to be good by himself.

[Peelee]

I definitely see him showing up at the North Pole

Ya know what? Five gold says that we leave the north pole before the book is halfway through.

[Doug Lampert]

Wasn't that how Hailey beat most of the Guild? Crit machining her way though everyone with her new bow that iced people over when she crits? :smallbiggrin:

There is no evidence that those were crits to take out low level rogues.

The bow does cold damage whether or not she crits.


An icy burst weapon functions as a frost weapon that also explodes with frost upon striking a successful critical hit. The frost does not harm the wielder. In addition to the extra damage from the frost ability, an icy burst weapon deals an extra 1d10 points of cold damage on a successful critical hit.

Frost
Upon command, a frost weapon is sheathed in icy cold. The cold does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A frost weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of cold damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the cold energy upon their ammunition.

[Ionathus]

There is no evidence that those were crits to take out low level rogues.

The bow does cold damage whether or not she crits.

She only got the icy burst bow halfway through the fight, but otherwise you're right: the majority of rogues were simply too low-level to stand up against Haley's high-level attacks, crits or no, and she could sneak past the ones she couldn't fight.

The fight at Old Pete's was a mook horror show, through and through.

[bunsen_h]

No offense, but this would be the worst hiding spot possible. Evidence for this is that this has been proposed over and over again ever since we got that shot of the ridge with all the doors. That statue is the first place anyone would look even before starting to go through the doors.

The best location as a hiding spot is some utterly undistinguished place at an accessible distance, locatable only by coordinates or directions which are completely secret. Girard's pyramid is an excellent example, and please let's not get back into the argument about Serini writing down the coordinates in her diary.

[Fyraltari]

Ya know what? Five gold says that we leave the north pole before the book is halfway through.

This is going to be tough to cash in. You'll either have to wait for the end of the book or 2*X pages, X being the page number at which we leave the Pole.

[KorvinStarmast]

So it’s possible that when Redcloak dies he won’t see the Dark One because the Dark One isn’t truly his god any more. Yep. The Cause is what he's gone "all in!" on.

[hungrycrow]

Ya know what? Five gold says that we leave the north pole before the book is halfway through.

I'll take that bet. The last 1200 pages have made travel time too big a deal for the Order to start teleporting around at the end. They even cut off their only means of retreat. It makes much more sense for any remaining relevant characters to come to them.

[KorvinStarmast]

They even cut off their only means of retreat. The Mechane?

Durkon has recently demonstrated the Wind Walk traveling mode, and I think it also figured in another travel bit (I was going to say the rescue of V from the demi plane of ranch dressing, but for some reason I suspect that was plane shift not Wind Walk)
I may be mixing editions here (I play 5e, and only played a little 3.5e) but you can travel a few hundred miles for each casting and it covers a decent sized group.

[Quizatzhaderac]

However, Xykon is capable of casting either quickened dispel magic (if he knows the spell) or quickened greater teleport, either of which would allow him to escape in a single round should he feel the need.I was of the understanding that sorcerers can't use quickened spells (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell).

...Roy curses a lot? He barely curses at all, except for this one scene. Would you also say that Roy dates a lot of sylphs? Roy dies a lot? Roy insults fortune tellers mothers a lot? You're extrapolating a huge amount here.

Notwithstanding that Sam Jackson's "iconic style" is more akin to "plays the same character in most movies he's in and and curses when the script tells him to", of course.I actually find Roy's cursing to be sort of forth wall breaking, since I'm reminded that nobody is allowed to curse.

I would say that he actually does date a lot of Slyphs and die a lot, considering the base rate for those things. He's tied with the real-world (secular) world-record holder for number of times dying. Even for fantasy PCs, dating outside of your creature type is rare.


Man, I feel like this thread has some sort of landspeed record for quantity of posters missing each other's jokesThe real question here is how many people intended that result as a joke.

Ya know what? Five gold says that we leave the north pole before the book is halfway through.100 gold says they go south when they leave.

[arimareiji]

Getting killed would make him have a direct talk with The Dark One, which would probably be one of thr most significant even in his life.

Not sure which direction that would push him in, though.
Very good point, I don't know how I skipped factoring this in... but I suspect some of it may also depend on how omniscient TDO is, given Redcloak's tendency to treat even TDO as being on a "need to know" basis.

On a closely-related note, is TDO the boss who doesn't look too much into anything as long as you tell him what he wants to hear? Or has he been keeping an eye on Redcloak all along, and he's been putting up with what Redcloak thinks are clever schemes (to act in "TDO's best interest" even if it might conflict with what TDO thinks he wants) because he's willing to wait and see?

I think the latter would be far more satisfying (and congruent with "Don't screw this up")... but that's just me, and I'm absolutely not the Giant's high priest who understands his will or anything. (^_~)


I think you guys take the significance of crayons a bit too far sometimes. Yes, they're mediated by a narrator in a way cutaway panels aren't, and thus they aren't necessarily a faithful representation of what happened, but that doesn't mean that they can't be. Take the story about Durkon's dad, for example - I'd wager it was true, and intended to be taken as truth.

I bet that the main reason for The Giant to use crayons is not that he wants to have an unreliable narrator to say something misleading, but that crayon drawings are cool and a fun change of pace. The unreliable narrator thing is just a bonus in some cases.
Possibly-dumb question: Has the Giant ever indicated they have any meaning, other than what I would guess is "something (often a memory) being recounted, therefore they're putting their own spin on it which may or may not be reliable"?


Imagine for a second how the scene looks like to Serini, who doesn't know about Blackwing or the telepathic bond yet. Roy is talking about their plan, then stops mid-sentence and makes a face, Haley mutters "Oh no." and then Roys start cursing and shouting. It really looks like Roy is freaking out for no reason at all, and that is what Haley is reacting to.
I'm willing to bet Serini will comment on this in the next strip.
Ha. Nice, and it would be funny. I think it'd be worth a moment of distraction from the story, but hard to be sure with so many reveals around the corner.

[AstralFire]

I was of the understanding that sorcerers can't use quickened spells (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell)

There are multiple exceptions scattered across many sourcebooks. Most likely in my eyes is that Xykon may either have the Metamagic Sorcerer ACF or that Xykon may have the Sudden Metamagic feat line. I'm not saying he does, mind, just that it's not at all beyond the realm of reasonableness. Additionally, Mr. Burlew may simply not care to bring that rule up. I don't believe we've ever had anyone in the comic talk about the drawbacks of being a spontaneous caster since we have no protagonist spont. 9casters and Elan's PrC means he's not even much of a 6caster anymore. With 3e now two editions out of date, that piece of minutiae may be so irrelevant that it's just not worth considering, particularly in the context that 5e (rightfully, imo) ended up making metamagic a core feature of the sorcerer and not one of the wizard at all.

On the other hand, who knows, maybe in the final battle Vaarsuvius will find some way to abuse Xykon's limitations on spontaneous metamagic to give Roy a better shot at using Spellsunder or whatever that was called.


Jirix claims to have. There was some reason why Rich decided not to show us the event in stickspace, like maybe a) the Dark One is tiny because he lacks the soul energy possessed by Thor b) the Dark One’s location would have given away something so Rich used crayons to be vague c) the Dark One is being operated like a marionette by the Snarl d) the Dark One didn’t say what Jirix claimed he said e) etc.

I'd like to offer an important possibility for (e):

In some senses, the Dark One is the final antagonist, since he is both the heart of the solution to the gods' problem and also a metaphorical snarl in his own right, an emergent tangle from their poorly-conceived games of life and death. As he is also a god, it may simply be more dramatic not to have revealed him in all his splendor at this time. We've seen Thor's presentation of him, but that's not really the same thing.

(Can you tell my favorite characters are Elan and Tarquin?)

[bunsen_h]

He's tied with the real-world (secular) world-record holder for number of times dying.

That gets into matters of definition. Brain-dead, I'll agree with you. Heart stopped and restarted, stuff like that, there are real-world people with a count well above 1.


Durkon has recently demonstrated the Wind Walk traveling mode, and I think it also figured in another travel bit (I was going to say the rescue of V from the demi plane of ranch dressing, but for some reason I suspect that was plane shift not Wind Walk)

It was here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html).


On the other hand, who knows, maybe in the final battle Vaarsuvius will find some way to abuse Xykon's limitations on spontaneous metamagic to give Roy a better shot at using Spellsunder or whatever that was called.

The Spellsplinter Maneuver (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html).

[Peelee]

This is going to be tough to cash in. You'll either have to wait for the end of the book or 2*X pages, X being the page number at which we leave the Pole.
I am a patient man.

I'll take that bet. The last 1200 pages have made travel time too big a deal for the Order to start teleporting around at the end. They even cut off their only means of retreat. It makes much more sense for any remaining relevant characters to come to them.
Oh, I don't think they'll be teleporting around all willy nilly. I just think that the conflict may move elsewhere.

[InvisibleBison]

I was of the understanding that sorcerers can't use quickened spells (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell).

As AstralFire pointed out above, there are a number of ways around that, and when I made my earlier post I mistakenly thought that Xykon had been shown using one of them.

[Mic_128]

I'll take that bet. The last 1200 pages have made travel time too big a deal for the Order to start teleporting around at the end. They even cut off their only means of retreat. It makes much more sense for any remaining relevant characters to come to them.

There's also the fact that they're at a gateway to the planet-within-the-planet, and there's no way we don't end up going there at some point.

[InvisibleBison]

There's also the fact that they're at a gateway to the planet-within-the-planet, and there's no way we don't end up going there at some point.

I have to disagree. While it does seem inevitable that the planet within the gates will be an important factor in resolving the plot, I don't see why physically traveling there would be required.

[hungrycrow]

There's also the fact that they're at a gateway to the planet-within-the-planet, and there's no way we don't end up going there at some point.

You're right I did forget about that. I don't think it's 100% certain we'll go there but it does seem more plot relevant than any other place they could go.

[brian 333]

Ya know what? Five gold says that we leave the north pole before the book is halfway through.

I'm backing that bet. With the quatloos I borrowed from you...

[Peelee]

Possibly-dumb question: Has the Giant ever indicated they have any meaning, other than what I would guess is "something (often a memory) being recounted, therefore they're putting their own spin on it which may or may not be reliable"?

Context for the answer also included:

okay. me and my friend are debating whether SOD is actually a valid part of the story or a biased story told by redcloak. I personally think it's valid but he seems to think that redcloak is telling the story and therefore it's biased (particularly the part about the Paladins slaughtering Goblin women and children without mercy and without falling.)

what's the playground's opinion on this matter?


Oooo! Oooo! I know this one!

The events of Start of Darkness are not a narrative being told by Redcloak, except for the crayon pages (which totally are). You are right, your friend is wrong. Everything you see happened.
Crayon =narrative being told by someone. It had as much weight behind it as anyone's words do.

[arimareiji]

Crayon =narrative being told by someone. It had as much weight behind it as anyone's words do.

Thank you for the clear answer, and the lovely (and accurate) ambiguity in the last sentence. (^_^)b

[Jannoire]

100 gold says they go south when they leave.

I'll take that bet!
You'd think they can't go anywhere but South, but you're wrong. They will leave via the Astral plane or the planet in the rifts, which technically isn't south

[Ruck]

Okay this is just perfect.

Wouldn't it be, though? I'm gonna have to revisit all my theories and suggestions on this in a few years.


I don't think this will come up, since said person is not around at the moment.

The story still has a long way to go.


I mean, it wasn't THAT shortly afterwards I think? Wasn't it like two weeks ago or so?

Depending on how various parts of the afterlife work (and what we know about the one we've seen in any depth), time perception may not be all that accurate from there.


I think you guys take the significance of crayons a bit too far sometimes. Yes, they're mediated by a narrator in a way cutaway panels aren't, and thus they aren't necessarily a faithful representation of what happened, but that doesn't mean that they can't be. Take the story about Durkon's dad, for example - I'd wager it was true, and intended to be taken as truth.

I bet that the main reason for The Giant to use crayons is not that he wants to have an unreliable narrator to say something misleading, but that crayon drawings are cool and a fun change of pace. The unreliable narrator thing is just a bonus in some cases.

Crayons really mean that it's a visualization of a story someone is telling. It does not mean that story is automatically not true or is suspicious in some other way. (In short, I agree with you.)


Possibly-dumb question: Has the Giant ever indicated they have any meaning, other than what I would guess is "something (often a memory) being recounted, therefore they're putting their own spin on it which may or may not be reliable"?

I think that's pretty much it. Just a sign that we're not witnessing objective events but someone's recollection of them.

[elros]

I applaud the Giant for pointing out that writing can be like magic. The creative types on the forum (of which I am not one) surely agree.

I still think ambushing Xykon now is the wrong approach, because the goal is to get Redcloak to lock the final gate. Ambushing him and Oona now, when Xykon is not around, has a better chance of success, right?

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'll take that bet!
You'd think they can't go anywhere but South, but you're wrong. They will leave via the Astral plane or the planet in the rifts, which technically isn't southAlright, but if they end up on the surface of a sphere (planet in the rift or Xykon's astral fortress) I'm going to count all but one point on those spheres as south of their current location.
I still think ambushing Xykon now is the wrong approach, because the goal is to get Redcloak to lock the final gate. Ambushing him and Oona now, when Xykon is not around, has a better chance of success, right?Maybe, but then they'd have to worry about Xykon ambushing them and negotiate with Redcloak while he still believes Xykon might rescue him.

And while it's less important than the gate stuff, Xykon is still a problem that needs to be dealt with all by himself.

[Ron Miel]

[/SPOILER]

I don't think this will come up, since said person is not around at the moment.

I think it wouldn't have been in the bonus strip at all without a plan for the resolution. It WILL come up some time before the end of the story.

[Peelee]

I think it wouldn't have been in the bonus strip at all without a plan for the resolution. It WILL come up some time before the end of the story.

Seconded. I think it was a teaser as a bonus for those who paid money.

[Ionathus]

I also expect
Belkar will die saving Hinjo's life, as Sangwaan predicted in a flashback in bonus Don't Split the Party strip #665b. Possibly with a tear-jerker line about how he'd better take good care of Mr. Scruffy.

Can somebody please remind me of the wording of this prediction? Does Sangwaan predict Belkar will actually die in the process of saving Hinjo's life? Or if it's a flashback, did the prediction happen before Belkar saved Hinjo's life from poison arrow rogue guy up on the battlements?

[hamishspence]

Can somebody please remind me of the wording of this prediction? Does Sangwaan predict Belkar will actually die in the process of saving Hinjo's life? Or if it's a flashback, did the prediction happen before Belkar saved Hinjo's life from poison arrow rogue guy up on the battlements?

"I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

It's a flashback, to very shortly before Shojo has the Mark of Justice put on Belkar, before handing him back to Roy.

[Shining Wrath]

In order to serve his god, Redcloak needs a powerful arcane caster. Nothing will make him more likely to listen to Durkon a second time than destroying Xykon - because even if he starts to reform from his phylactery, he now knows Redcloak betrayed him and his phylactery is not safe in his Astral Plane fortress. At a minimum he's going to be less cooperative.

[arimareiji]

In order to serve his god, Redcloak needs a powerful arcane caster. Nothing will make him more likely to listen to Durkon a second time than destroying Xykon - because even if he starts to reform from his phylactery, he now knows Redcloak betrayed him and his phylactery is not safe in his Astral Plane fortress. At a minimum he's going to be less cooperative.
nathan fillion raises a hand to interject then pauses to think and decides to remain quiet . gif (https://imgur.com/gallery/ji0Bem2)
(because what was said already covers it admirably)

[Satohika]

IMHO, Roy's reaction was pretty OOC.

[hamishspence]

It's not all that different from this strip here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1078.html

When Roy gets sufficiently frustrated, he screams.

[Ruck]

In order to serve his god, Redcloak needs a powerful arcane caster. Nothing will make him more likely to listen to Durkon a second time than destroying Xykon - because even if he starts to reform from his phylactery, he now knows Redcloak betrayed him and his phylactery is not safe in his Astral Plane fortress. At a minimum he's going to be less cooperative.
That's an understatement. I don't see any way a Xykon / Redcloak partnership could continue after that. Xykon would almost certainly try to kill Redcloak if he let him regenerate, and I think Redcloak knows that.

[Thermophille]

IMHO, Roy's reaction was pretty OOC.

I think the consensus is that so many things have gone wrong today that when this happened he just snapped completely.

[danielxcutter]

I think the consensus is that so many things have gone wrong today that when this happened he just snapped completely.

Less "today" and more "the past year or so" I think but otherwise this more or less.

[arimareiji]

That's an understatement. I don't see any way a Xykon / Redcloak partnership could continue after that. Xykon would almost certainly try to kill Redcloak if he let him regenerate, and I think Redcloak knows that.
I find myself wondering if it's already inside an active volcano for safekeeping, but I imagine not (because of story needs).

[Jannoire]

I find myself wondering if it's already inside an active volcano for safekeeping, but I imagine not (because of story needs).

Xykon's soul-hidey-place? I thought Redcloack was still using it as his holy symbol, after Xykon dropped the replica in his fortress

[Vikenlugaid]

Xykon's soul-hidey-place? I thought Redcloack was still using it as his holy symbol, after Xykon dropped the replica in his fortress
No, Redcloak is using a regular holy symbol and we don't know exactky where did he hide the philactery.

My bet is a room with an anti magic field or something.

[Fyraltari]

No, Redcloak is using a regular holy symbol and we don't know exactky where did he hide the philactery.

My bet is a room with an anti magic field or something.

Redcloak's back-up holy symbol was square. When we caught up with him at the North Pole he was back to using a round one. We don't know if it's the phylactery or a third holy symbol.

[hungrycrow]

Redcloak was pretty particular about the duplicate he had made being an exact replica, so presumably he was worried that Xykon could tell the difference, and Xykon would also notice if Redcloak was constantly wearing the real one.

[hroþila]

Yeah, I don't think Redcloak would wear the phylactery in plain sight. That'd be stupid. "But Xykon is dumb and unattentive so he wouldn't notice".
:xykon: Oh, Redcloak. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.

Either Redcloak got a third, round holy symbol because he doesn't like the diamond shape as much, or it's supposed to be the same backup symbol after the art upgrade, or it's an art error that The Giant never bothered fixing because it could be explained away as above.

[Fyraltari]

I suspect it's another one and it's round because at some point the Order will mistake it for the real deal, which wouldn't have happened with a square one.

[Psyren]

It occurs to me that Xykon might recognize the bird that was carrying his phylactery if Blackwing doesn't hide :smalleek:

[Precure]

It occurs to me that Xykon might recognize the bird that was carrying his phylactery if Blackwing doesn't hide :smalleek:

Not to mention Blackwing might "leak" some information about the Familicide to Serini.

[Mic_128]

Less "today" and more "the past year or so" I think but otherwise this more or less.

It's definitely more towards the 'today.' Look at everything that's gone wrong.

Paladins mysteriously vanished.
Durkon went against his wishes, if not his order.
Element of surprise ruined, huge advantage lost.
Elan once again does something stupid (even if it was outside of his control) and leads them into a trap.
Roy gets drugged.
Roy fails to convince Serini.
Belkar does a better charisma check than him.
Second and potentially last attempt at an ambush ruined.

It's been a really ****ty hour or so for the poor guy. :(

[Psyren]

Not to mention Blackwing might "leak" some information about the Familicide to Serini.

Aside from what I mentioned in your thread on the subject, Serini isn't part of the Telepathic Bond and so has no way of overhearing Blackwing.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's definitely more towards the 'today.' Look at everything that's gone wrong.

Paladins mysteriously vanished.
Durkon went against his wishes, if not his order.
Element of surprise ruined, huge advantage lost.
Elan once again does something stupid (even if it was outside of his control) and leads them into a trap.
Roy gets drugged.
Roy fails to convince Serini.
Belkar does a better charisma check than him.
Second and potentially last attempt at an ambush ruined.

It's been a really ****ty hour or so for the poor guy. :(
Good summary. If you go from strip 1198 - 1203, and the attempt to formulate a plan, we see that planning is a good thing to do but plans rarely survive contact with the enemy. (The battle with Durkula in the old dining hall was an even better illustration of that from both sides).

[Quizatzhaderac]

Good summary. If you go from strip 1198 - 1203, and the attempt to formulate a plan, we see that planning is a good thing to do but plans rarely survive contact with the enemy. (The battle with Durkula in the old dining hall was an even better illustration of that from both sides).Roy's actual enemy isn't really the problem with keeping Roy's plans on Track; Xykon and Redcloak have been behaving rather predictably.

The enemies of Roy's plans have been his insubordinate lawful ally and an unknown tritagonist.

We haven't even started in on things going off-plan because of Team evil yet.

[KorvinStarmast]

We haven't even started in on things going off-plan because of Team evil yet. Nor have we even gotten a whiff of how they'll go off plan when IFCC places their chips on the table. :smallbiggrin:

[Windscion]

Okay, I skipped page 3-5 of the thread, but seriously is no one pointing out that this is still an excellent opportunity to ambush Redcloak? They probably have time for it, since the bugbear and warg are playing detective with Redcloak. Also, MitD isn't around, altho O'Chul's presence probably makes that irrelevant.

[brian 333]

Okay, I skipped page 3-5 of the thread, but seriously is no one pointing out that this is still an excellent opportunity to ambush Redcloak? They probably have time for it, since the bugbear and warg are playing detective with Redcloak. Also, MitD isn't around, altho O'Chul's presence probably makes that irrelevant.

To what point? They want RC alive, and an ambush is likely to not achieve that goal.

Meanwhile, (the real target) Xykon is outside. He can't be reached via the swap-over, but he will be able to hear everything going on in the tunnel and ambush the ambushers.

It's not as if an open door is all that great an obstacle between RC and X, and I have yet to think up any scenario where the Order can defeat RC in one-round, even with surprise on their side.

[AstralFire]

To what point? They want RC alive, and an ambush is likely to not achieve that goal.

Meanwhile, (the real target) Xykon is outside. He can't be reached via the swap-over, but he will be able to hear everything going on in the tunnel and ambush the ambushers.

It's not as if an open door is all that great an obstacle between RC and X, and I have yet to think up any scenario where the Order can defeat RC in one-round, even with surprise on their side.

Single target blast spells (which have a chance to crit) along with charging power attacks and sneak attacks?

It would both never happen within the story and would require some luck to go their way rather than improbably against their way for once, to say nothing of my agreement that killing Redcloak would be an unwise tactic.

But in theory, the order is strong enough to one round here. Surprise round and action economy (six high levels, 1 epic, at least 1 high CR monster, 3 mid levels) beats level advantage and casters not using scry and die. Really, overall, it feels like the Order should have better than even odds in any encounter where they get a surprise round against Xykon -- think how well they handled being at extreme disadvantage against half of Tarquin's fully rested epic party and his army -- and a big part of the narrative pushing back the encounter is that Xykon needs to get a tactical advantage of some kind in addition to his power.

The story deserves a climactic fight where the Order isn't whiffing things they should make left and right just to build suspense, and that's what we'd be getting if the Order was fighting on Roy's terms at any point right now.

[danielxcutter]

The story deserves a climactic fight where the Order isn't whiffing things they should make left and right just to build suspense, and that's what we'd be getting if the Order was fighting on Roy's terms at any point right now.

Frankly I'm quite sick of that - there have been so many diabolus ex machinas that if this was an actual game, all the players would have walked before DStP was over, and one of them might have punched half the DM's teeth out.

[Fyraltari]

Frankly I'm quite sick of that - there have been so many diabolus ex machinas that if this was an actual game, all the players would have walked before DStP was over, and one of them might have punched half the DM's teeth out.

It's a good thing this is a story told to readers and not a game improvised with players, then.

[danielxcutter]

It's a good thing this is a story told to readers and not a game improvised with players, then.

Oh it is, yes, but it's hard to deny that it'd suck to play with such a "DM".

[Vikenlugaid]

Oh it is, yes, but it's hard to deny that it'd suck to play with such a "DM".
Well speak for yourself, there are a lot of players who loves "hardcore mode".

[danielxcutter]

There's a difference between "hardcore" and "asspulls solely to screw with the players".

[Fyraltari]

There's a difference between "hardcore" and "asspulls solely to screw with the players".

You would also not like to play with the "GM" of Indiana Jones or James Bond.

In a story the hero has to overcome steep odds. In games, to insure the players can continue playing, the odds vastly favour them.

Every story with danger is going to be "unfair" to its protagonists by D&D standards.

[pendell]

To what point? They want RC alive, and an ambush is likely to not achieve that goal.

Meanwhile, (the real target) Xykon is outside. He can't be reached via the swap-over, but he will be able to hear everything going on in the tunnel and ambush the ambushers.

It's not as if an open door is all that great an obstacle between RC and X, and I have yet to think up any scenario where the Order can defeat RC in one-round, even with surprise on their side.

As I recall, any lethal physical damage can be converted to non-lethal damage which can incapacitate -- but not kill -- the target. Capturing and neutralizing Redcloak, if possible, would go a long way towards defeating Xykon. The two of them are a much more effective team together than either is separately. The two times we've seen the two fight seriously -- against the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard and against powered-up Vaarsuvius -- it was Redcloak's suggestions which enabled Xykon to most effectively use his spell list. Forcing Xykon to rely solely on his own resources makes him much more beatable.

We saw this in start of darkness; together they are a world-ending threat. Separately , Redcloak doesn't have the arcane power needed for the plan and Xykon is , well, a rogue caster who kills paladins for fun but is not a real threat to the world around him.

So, yes, if possible I would capture Redcloak as the first step towards neutralizing Xykon. Not only will it weaken Xykon who can neither rely on Redcloak's tactical skill nor his negative energy spells which can heal Xykon, defeating Xykon might make Redcloak more amenable to contributing that ninth level spell slot we need from him to repair the gates.


As far as the point of "odds" raised by brian333 and Fyraltari -- maybe I'm a refuge from the Gygax era but to my mind the GM shouldn't be in the business of stacking the deck in favor of the players. The GM's job is to present the players with a hard but fair and reasonable challenge. If there is any odds-stacking, it should be done by the players who use intelligence gathering and scouting to learn about the opposition, then find ways to set up encounters which give them the most favorable odds. It's not the GMs job to stack the odds in their favor; it's their job to stack the deck by making the most of their opportunities and utilizing the principle of local superiority to allow them to pick battles with the highest probability of favorable outcomes.

Heck, it's been a long while but that's how I ascended every character class in Nethack -- Roguelikes such as ADOM, Slash'em, and Nethack absolutely favor that style of play. A player that doesn't work every advantage available to them absent necessary handicaps required by a challenge run is going to be going through a lot of characters ; they die very quickly in the various dungeons if not played with great skill, and even the best players can still be killed by a bad number from the RNG.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[brian 333]

All true, but:
Subdual damage eliminates any possibility of using spells to add damage. You can't subdue with a fireball, flame weapon, or even Magic Weapon spell.

Xykon is only one round away, so with the above handicap the Order has 1 surprise round and 1 combat round to take out Oona, Greyview, and Redcloak, and be gone before Xykon looks in the door.

[Quizatzhaderac]

All true, but:
Subdual damage eliminates any possibility of using spells to add damage. You can't subdue with a fireball, flame weapon, or even Magic Weapon spell.Not quite. A combination of lethal and non lethal damage can subdue a target. A unit becomes staggered/unconscious when it's non-lethal damage is equals/exceeds to it's current hit points. Lethal damage lowers current hit points, so doing 51% of max hp lethal damage and 50% nonlethal will knock a target unconscious.

[Vikenlugaid]

There's a difference between "hardcore" and "asspulls solely to screw with the players".
But every character in the Order survived those events, so that was clearly a "hardcore but satisfaying game".
I would absolutely love to play that campaign, the feeling at the end...

[pendell]

Not quite. A combination of lethal and non lethal damage can subdue a target. A unit becomes staggered/unconscious when it's non-lethal damage is equals/exceeds to it's current hit points. Lethal damage lowers current hit points, so doing 51% of max hp lethal damage and 50% nonlethal will knock a target unconscious.

So if Vaarsuvius fires off a maximized* fireball within an enclosed space might that be enough to kill Oona and Greyview while knocking Redcloak's HP to a threshold small enough Roy can push him over the edge with a few quick whacks for subdual damage?



* I don't remember if V has this metamagic feat but it makes sense to use it here if available.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Eh, even if none of them make the save that's only like 60 damage. Empowered Chain Lightning might be better.

[faustin]

As I recall, any lethal physical damage can be converted to non-lethal damage which can incapacitate -- but not kill -- the target. Capturing and neutralizing Redcloak, if possible, would go a long way towards defeating Xykon. The two of them are a much more effective team together than either is separately. The two times we've seen the two fight seriously -- against the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard and against powered-up Vaarsuvius -- it was Redcloak's suggestions which enabled Xykon to most effectively use his spell list. Forcing Xykon to rely solely on his own resources makes him much more beatable.

We saw this in start of darkness; together they are a world-ending threat. Separately , Redcloak doesn't have the arcane power needed for the plan and Xykon is , well, a rogue caster who kills paladins for fun but is not a real threat to the world around him.

So, yes, if possible I would capture Redcloak as the first step towards neutralizing Xykon. Not only will it weaken Xykon who can neither rely on Redcloak's tactical skill nor his negative energy spells which can heal Xykon, defeating Xykon might make Redcloak more amenable to contributing that ninth level spell slot we need from him to repair the gates.


As far as the point of "odds" raised by brian333 and Fyraltari -- maybe I'm a refuge from the Gygax era but to my mind the GM shouldn't be in the business of stacking the deck in favor of the players. The GM's job is to present the players with a hard but fair and reasonable challenge. If there is any odds-stacking, it should be done by the players who use intelligence gathering and scouting to learn about the opposition, then find ways to set up encounters which give them the most favorable odds. It's not the GMs job to stack the odds in their favor; it's their job to stack the deck by making the most of their opportunities and utilizing the principle of local superiority to allow them to pick battles with the highest probability of favorable outcomes.

Heck, it's been a long while but that's how I ascended every character class in Nethack -- Roguelikes such as ADOM, Slash'em, and Nethack absolutely favor that style of play. A player that doesn't work every advantage available to them absent necessary handicaps required by a challenge run is going to be going through a lot of characters ; they die very quickly in the various dungeons if not played with great skill, and even the best players can still be killed by a bad number from the RNG.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Again, and most importantly, Redcloak is the only individual who knows the ritual. The plan to control the Snarl requires him as active participant, period.

The question is if Xykon would be spiteful enough to destroy the final Gate and unleash the Snarl just to spite the Order.

[pendell]

Again, and most importantly, Redcloak is the only individual who knows the ritual. The plan to control the Snarl requires him as active participant, period.

The question is if Xykon would be spiteful enough to destroy the final Gate and unleash the Snarl just to spite the Order.

The reason Redcloak knows the ritual is because he wears the Scarlet Mantle, which imparted it to him. Any goblin cleric who wears the cloak would also gain access to that knowledge.

The thing Redcloak has that other goblin clerics don't is ninth level spell slots. So? Isn't it convenient that we have this whopping great dungeon full of high-level monsters so insanely strong even *Xykon* gets XP from fighting them?

:elan: You'd have to kill my friend Sunny's friends, and I won't let you. That's mean.

Right. So subdual damage for the win again. Who says you have to kill monsters to gain XP from fighting them? I think the criteria is "defeat" them. Stretch the rules far enough, you can gain XP from Baggins riddle game. He "defeated" Gollum, after all.

:elan: I have a better plan! It's foolproof.

*Sigh* It had better be, Elan. What is this plan? IF anyone would know about foolproof plans, it's you.

:elan: Whee! Compliments.

Me [under breath] It wasn't a compliment ...

:elan: So the first thing we do is find a goblin cleric.

Yes...

:elan: Then we make him a Personal Rival (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) of Xykon! Our world runs on game rules! The cleric instantly gains the same levels as Xykon has, and also ninth-level spell slots! Easy-peasy!

...

:elan: Then not only do we have that oh-so-necessary spell slot, we have a brand new friend to beat up mean-meaneyhead Xykon with! An epic-level cleric friend! Our third on the team!

[ponders]

That is a crazy idea but it's not utterly implausible. First of all, there are any number of goblins (as we saw in Start of Darkness) who have reason to hate Xykon. He has a habit of getting his minions killed off for his own amusement. It might be quite difficult to find a goblin who doesn't have a personal reason to wish Xykon destroyed.

I would nominate ... if it came to it, for it is a crazy plan ... the former supreme leader (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html).

Who seems to have survived by dint of cunning Redcloak's accession.

And whom we know from GDGU to be a cleric. I don't think that's enough detail about his appearance to warrant a spoiler box.

What's more, he's lived a bit. Redcloak was a teenager when he put on the Scarlet Mantle and it made a deep imprint on his mind. Possibly with someone older they could retain their original outlook more effectively, having spent decades developing and learning it the hard way, that they would not be instantly brainwashed by the Dark One. Possibly even able to imprint in reverse to some extent.

So yeah, Elan. Well done. We'll put that one in our back pocket as a last-last-last ditch plan.

[to self] It's an absolutely crazy plan but that's a point in its favor in OOTS world. Although Rich no doubt has something else in mind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Right. So subdual damage for the win again. Who says you have to kill monsters to gain XP from fighting them? I think the criteria is "defeat" them. Stretch the rules far enough, you can gain XP from Baggins riddle game. He "defeated" Gollum, after all.

A.) Subdual damage is harder to get as it imposes negatives on attack, IIRC.
2.) the criteria is to overcome challenges. At least, the way I've always played. That challenge may be defeating a monster or role playing a diplomatic function or simply staying alive against an onslaught. No defeat required. No "rules stretching" required.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So if Vaarsuvius fires off a maximized* fireball within an enclosed space might that be enough to kill Oona and Greyview while knocking Redcloak's HP to a threshold small enough Roy can push him over the edge with a few quick whacks for subdual damage?
I don't know if ze would have prepared many fireballs (or chain lightnings) as they wouldn't be effective against Xykon.

My guess at the tactic would be having Roy close and prepare to spellsplinter and then Haley use the flank to sap.

[Duncun]

A.) Subdual damage is harder to get as it imposes negatives on attack, IIRC.

You are correct, there is a -4 penalty to hit if you are using a weapon that deals lethal damage.

[Liquor Box]

A.) Subdual damage is harder to get as it imposes negatives on attack, IIRC.


Isn;t the easiest way to capture an enemy to use lethal force to get them into negative hit points, then when they go down, stabilise them so they don't die.

[Peelee]

Isn;t the easiest way to capture an enemy to use lethal force to get them into negative hit points, then when they go down, stabilise them so they don't die.

That or the Sleep spell, depending. :smallwink:

[AstralFire]

Frankly I'm quite sick of that - there have been so many diabolus ex machinas that if this was an actual game, all the players would have walked before DStP was over, and one of them might have punched half the DM's teeth out.

I don't (usually) mind those, because this isn't a table. What I was referring to is when there's a fight the Order should have the advantage on and just, everything that would be governed by a dice roll in a real game turns out poorly for them to a statistically quite unlikely degree. Even most of those read fine when reading them as a whole rather than page by page, though there were a few that irked me that I only ever read as a bunch rather than page-by-page. (I won't mention which ones because I don't want to get bogged down in arguments. I just want to say I do sympathize a bit!)

In any event, while I am not at all sure how much V will be around for, I expect whatever the final battle is will end up showing both sides mostly at their apex, so I'm keeping my eye out for whatever added advantage Xykon can pick up in this book before then.

[brian 333]

If you play long enough you will see all kinds of random number issues. I once played a 1st ed Cavalier and for our level 1 quest we were supposed to uncover the presence of ogre magi ruling a village in a neighboring kingdom. My cavalier couldn't touch the ogres, and was in full retreat when my brother's ranger nat20 critted six times in a row with a handful of arrows that had been Magic Weaponed by a level 1 wizard.

The DM that evening was using a Dragon Magazine article for his Critical Hits rule, and had spent half an hour explaining how it worked.

So, two dead ogres later, we were in charge of a village...

[Ruck]

I've played enough poker that absolutely no roll of the dice, in a game-equivalent of this story, would surprise me. I've seen stuff rarer than two natural 20s in a row (although probably not 3; that's a 1 in 8000 chance, and I think the most unlikely you can be to win a hand in Hold 'Em, if you can still win it, is 989 to 1).

That said, I can't recall any of the Order's battles where I felt like the events or outcome were implausible.

[Curtis Cook]

Is it just my imagination, or was #1257 the funniest installment in years?

[Jannoire]

Is it just my imagination, or was #1257 the funniest installment in years?

This one was really good, but my highlight was "No, thanks, we're driving the plot".
Edit, and of course, Greg's face when he saw the chaos giraffes

[JonahFalcon]

Lois McMaster Bujold said that in order to get drama, she always asked herself "What's the worst thing that could happen?" Which is why Miles was deformed at birth in a society that murders babies with mutations.

It's about overcoming struggles. It only seems more torturous here because a strip comes out every 2-3 weeks. When you read it in a trade paperback, it goes faster and you don't have weeks or even years to wait for resolution.

[hroþila]

Lois McMaster Bujold said that in order to get drama, she always asked herself "What's the worst thing that could happen?"
I do that too but instead of being an acclaimed writer I just have anxiety

[arimareiji]

I do that too but instead of being an acclaimed writer I just have anxiety
Anxiety:
"What are you worried could happen?"
"Yes."
"Okay, but what specifically?"
"Yes."
"Can you narrow that down any?"
"Sure. Technically the worst thing will happen. Everything else could."