Numerical values of focus vs non-focus

[Max Caysey]

So... I have a question about 5th in general, which is more broad than my specific build question I asked in another thread.

My question here is how much optimization is possible in 5th?

Lets say you are a rogue/thief type and a fighter/warrior type. Lets say that the rogue builds towards stealth and the fighter builds towards DPS. What would be the numerical difference in ability of being stealthy for both characters at level 1, 5, 10 and 20?

Im really trying to understand how stealthy one can become with a build focus compared to no build focus. Like, I want to really feel that the thing I have specialized in, is significantly more potent than some who hasn't. Stealth is here just an example.

Im also wondering how fast your done developing your character when applying a focus. Here I mean when specializing in a certain area. In 3.x you have hundreds of PrC, feats, items, to choose from which all adds to stealth, basically making an invisible character... you can litterally keep working on improving one's focus... I understand that 5th is not like that, but I am still curious as to how fast you're done "optimizing"... and how much you get out of it. Like how many percent better would a stealth focussed rogue be at stealthing than a fighter? 5%?, 20%? 50%?

Any help would be great!

Cheers!

[Unoriginal]

So... I have a question about 5th in general, which is more broad than my specific build question I asked in another thread.

My question here is how much optimization is possible in 5th?

Lets say you are a rogue/thief type and a fighter/warrior type. Lets say that the rogue builds towards stealth and the fighter builds towards DPS. What would be the numerical difference in ability of being stealthy for both characters at level 1, 5, 10 and 20?

A character who specializes in Dex (Stealth) checks can easily reach +5 (maximum stat mod for normal humanoids, reachable by lvl 8 for most build, if you start with a +3 at lvl 1) + proficiency (+2 for lvl 1-4, +3 for lvl 5-8, +4 for lvl 9-12, +5 for lvl 13-16, +6 for lvl 17-20) + Expertise (doubling the proficiency bonus). Adding to that there is the spell Pass Without a Trace, which add +10 to the result and make you unable to be tracked by non-magical means.

So if you want to focus on stealth, it's possible to start with a +7 at lvl 1, +10 at lvl 5, +15 at lvl 10 and end with a +17 at lvl 20, before Pass Without a Trace is applied.

A character like a DPS Fighter with no proficiency in the Stealth skill can have -2 to Dex (Stealth) checks from lvl 1 to 20.



Im also wondering how fast your done developing your character when applying a focus. Here I mean when specializing in a certain area. In 3.x you have hundreds of PrC, feats, items, to choose from which all adds to stealth, basically making an invisible character... I understand that 5th is not like that, but I am still curious as to the difference in both effort it takes and potency of a specialization like stealth...

5e characters tend to specialize less, but that doesn't mean they can't get potent efficiency still.

[Max Caysey]

Ok, so how good is +17 compared to the monsters a level 20 would face? Or +x at any of the other level intervals?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ok, so how good is +17 compared to the monsters a level 20 would face? Or +x at any of the other level intervals?

Passive perceptions (overall) range from 5 (gas spore, CR 0.5) to 31 (Molydeus, CR 21).

Going by Xanathar's guidance, the modal enemy at level 20 is CR 11. The mean passive perception of creatures CR 9 - 13 (to smooth out things) is 15 (14.99). So at a +17, you're passing the average creature without blindsight on a 1, as long as you have enough cover to try to hide.

At the top end of the range, the average for creatures CRs 18 - 30 is 21 (20.98). So you pass on a 5. And if you're a rogue, you auto-pass (again, as long as they don't have blindsight or tremorsense and you can hide at all). Because your minimum is 27 (10 from Reliable Talent + 17 modifier).

As a note, the spread in PP is huge. In that CR 18-30 band, there are creatures such as the Nightwalker (PP 9) and the aforementioned Molydeus (PP 31). And the averages are skewed by these outliers. Also note that the % of monsters having proficiency (or expertise) in perception doesn't really change (much) over the levels, going from ~50% at low CR to ~70% at high CR.

[Unoriginal]

Ok, so how good is +17 compared to the monsters a level 20 would face? Or +x at any of the other level intervals?

Well, it's pretty diverse.


To give one example, a CR 20 Pit Fiend would have +4 to WIS checks to perceive the hiding character, while a CR 13 Storm Giant would have +9. A CR 21 Lich would also have +9 to that check.

There are monsters who are much better at that than others, it depends a lot on what kind of archetypes and themes they're based on. For example, the Ancient Green Dragon is CR 22 and has +17 to WIS (Perception) check, without counting in the extra dragon senses, because they're the oldest of a kind of creatures that grows old by having sharp senses, sharp brains, and sharp claws.


Passive perceptions (overall) range from 5 (gas spore, CR 0.5) to 31 (Molydeus, CR 21).

Going by Xanathar's guidance, the modal enemy at level 20 is CR 11. The mean passive perception of creatures CR 9 - 13 (to smooth out things) is 15 (14.99). So at a +17, you're passing the average creature without blindsight on a 1, as long as you have enough cover to try to hide.

At the top end of the range, the average for creatures CRs 18 - 30 is 21 (20.98). So you pass on a 5. And if you're a rogue, you auto-pass (again, as long as they don't have blindsight or tremorsense and you can hide at all). Because your minimum is 27 (10 from Reliable Talent + 17 modifier).

As a note, the spread in PP is huge. In that CR 18-30 band, there are creatures such as the Nightwalker (PP 9) and the aforementioned Molydeus (PP 31). And the averages are skewed by these outliers. Also note that the % of monsters having proficiency (or expertise) in perception doesn't really change (much) over the levels, going from ~50% at low CR to ~70% at high CR.

Taking into account that 5e's maximum DC for a check is 30, normally. However Dex (Stealth) checks are technically always opposed checks, so the normal limit doesn't apply.

[Psyren]

@OP - I know you're focused on numerical values/benefits, but it's worth pointing out that some of the best benefits of optimization can be non-numerical. The DMG encourages your DM to make some challenges succeed automatically if the player exhibits a sufficient degree of talent (high ability score), training (proficiency/expertise), and for particularly extraordinary feats, magic (buffs and items.)

It's difficult to get to auto-success purely numerically (i.e. succeed on a 1) due to bounded accuracy, and that's okay, because the DM is encouraged not to call for a roll at all if you're not expected to fail, and stacking up these indicators of competency help with that expectation.

[JNAProductions]

Rogues also get Reliable Talent at level 11-whenever they make an ability check that adds their proficiency bonus, results of 1-9 on the d20 are treated as a 10.

So a 17th level Rogue, with 20 Dexterity and Expertise in Stealth has a minimum of 27 on their Stealth checks. You'd need +7 to your Perception (or +8, depending on how ties are treated) to even have a CHANCE of spotting them.

[strangebloke]

It's all over the place and varies a lot depending on where you're looking. Something like an Athletics or Acrobatics check will barely scale at all. Zariel is a CR 26 enemy with +8 str, but she's only as good at grappling as a level 1 rogue. Perception, for contrast, scales pretty evenly with CR and its rare to find a high CR monster without a double-digit perception modifier, since otherwise they'd be easy to surprise and kill.

Then you have AC which scales to a point and then drops off heavily with respect to attack modifiers unless you're a PC with +X armor and/or the shield spell.

But the real way things are gated is via senses and immunities. Something like darkness+devil's sight is really good against low CR enemies, they can't see you, all their attacks suffer from disadvantage and all yours benefit from advantage, its something like a -5 for them and a +5 for you. But higher CR enemies with a few notable exceptions have blindsense/truesight and won't be effected at all. Similarly there are a lot of ways of inflicting conditions like charmed, frightened, or poisoned at low levels, but at high levels most enemies will be immune to these conditions. The biggest ways of dealing big damage at low levels are mostly fire, poison, and necrotic damage, but high level enemies tend to be resistant or immune to these. Sleep ends encounters at low level, but becomes useless later on because of how little HP its effective on... and then you get forcecage which basically does the same thing to a lot of (but not all) really high level enemies.

Saves are the interesting one because for example good int saves are rare, but so are good spells that target int saves. Good dex saves are relatively uncommon at high levels too, and good spells that target dex saves are common... but the effects on a failed save that dex saves inflict is usually just "damage." Adding to this, magic resistance/immunity and legendary saves often compensate for whatever weakness a high level enemy has in their saves. Though again not all enemies are created equally here. A Dragon Turtle is CR 17 but if the 7th level cleric has banish, that big turtle is taking a vacation.

TL;DR but most enemies have a few key weaknesses if you know where to look, and some will have lots of weakness. Its all over the place. The reason damage is good in 5e is because it almost always works, whereas other strats tend to be feast or famine depending on the monster.