How Broken is the Saint Template?

[Speeddemon87]

So, as the title indicates, Saint is well known to be a very strong template. It's also really fun. I wanted to source out how overpowered it would be on say, a tier 3 character compared to say tier 1 characters. Would Vow of Poverty help balance it out or not make a difference?

[Troacctid]

For the cost of +2 LA and the prerequisite of three exalted feats, not broken at all. It's powerful, but you have to pay for that power, and the cost is very fairly balanced against the benefits.

If the LA +2 were waived somehow, then yes, it would be broken.

[Biggus]

As far as I can see, the main thing that determines its power is: is the character a Wis or Cha based caster? If yes, the AC, save DC and ability score bonuses make it very strong; if not it's merely good.

Edit:


For the cost of +2 LA and the prerequisite of three exalted feats, not broken at all.

Good point: whether you can find 3 exalted feats which are actually useful to your character is another important factor, most of them are rubbish.

[Speeddemon87]

Ok, thanks, those are some good points. Vow of Poverty makes qualifying easier I suppose, but it has it's own issues, so it's probably not too OP for non-casters

[ciopo]

Keep in mind VoP on casters means no more wands, no more scrolls and no more spells with expensive material components. It's not as bad but it's still pretty bad. I'd only really consider it on a way-of-the-bear druid.

[Troacctid]

VoP is underpowered compared to level-appropriate PC wealth. In general, I would say that using it to qualify for Saint makes the character substantially less powerful than if they had used class-specific exalted feats such as Celestial Familiar, Exalted Companion, Exalted Wild Shape, Words of Creation, or Righteous Wrath.

[Speeddemon87]

I was thinking of going for an incarnum build with Totemist/Incarnate, so no easy feat entrys there. On the other hand, not like VoP does much other than give me more useless exalted feats

[Arcanist]

Good point: whether you can find 3 exalted feats which are actually useful to your character is another important factor, most of them are rubbish.

A Druid can take Intuitive Attack at 3rd level, Exalted Companion at 6th level and Exalted Wild Shape at 9th level. A Human Druid, can instead take Nymph's Kiss at 1st level, Intuitive Attack at 3rd, and Exalted Wild Shape at 9th, freeing up their 6th level feat for Natural Spell. All of which seem pretty darn neat on a Druid, without removing any of their magic items, or requiring them to leap through any awkward hoops that would infringe on anyone else's playstyle.


I was thinking of going for an incarnum build with Totemist/Incarnate, so no easy feat entrys there. On the other hand, not like VoP does much other than give me more useless exalted feats

That is unfortunate. You'll want Nymph's Kiss, Intuitive Attack, and Touch of Golden Ice (I guess?).

[Dimers]

<drags over a soapbox>

Exalted feats are problematic for many settings, many adventure paths, many players and many groups. If you're not running an entire exalted game, they can get really straining. It bugs me to no end, seeing Nymph-Kissed on what seems like every third good-aligned build and knowing that it'll clash horribly with how some PCs are likely to be acting or what kind of interactions they want to have with the world.

Sainthood turns that up to 11. One single "for the greater good" evil act since you started acquiring exalted feats and you're out of the running forever. One less-than-exalted act, in the DM's opinion, can mean you're RAW disqualified. BoED doesn't say what happens if you act pragmatic after sanctification, but I bet the exalted deities who sponsored you are gonna be pretty put out.

I feel sainthood is not to be taken lightly, and someone who's thinking of it in terms of the power it'd bring them (instead of the restrictions it applies to them) is probably not a good candidate. I wish sainthood got a paragraph or two about its impact on playstyle like Voluntary Poverty and Waging Peace do. It's a rare game where that degree of holiness is a good fit.

To answer the question with that three-paragraph caveat, though ... in a full-on Exalted campaign where a saint actually makes sense to play, I would say the LA and feat cost are enough penalty by themselves for anyone who wants to take it. It's largely orthogonal to intraparty balance.

EDIT: Sorry, that was rather "badwrongfun". Enjoy the kickass template. It's not too OP in my opinion.

[Speeddemon87]

That is unfortunate. You'll want Nymph's Kiss, Intuitive Attack, and Touch of Golden Ice (I guess?).

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Also had some ideas for a Paladin entry, but that one needs even more feats, relying on Devotion stuff and Serenity to Wisdom focus.

Saint (and Exalted stuff in general) can be a bit problematic, I understand that. I do really want to play an inspiring, protecting figure, in the group... though it something to consider about how that might impact the rest of the party dynamic. We play generally 'good' groups, but it could still be grating, I'm sure.

[Vault756]

Not at all imo. It's good for sure but 3 feats is a steep cost. Nymph's kiss is good but beyond that most Exalted feats are pretty bad. Maybe intuitive attack is okay in your build, a feat for a small bonus to hit is generally seen as weak but acceptable if it qualifies you for something better. Nobody likes taking Weapon Focus but it happens pretty often because it leads into better stuff. Intuitive Attack is probably at about that level, which is to say "Not great but I'll take it." After that though I can't think of another exalted feat that would ever even come up. Touch of Golden Ice is bad but if you're using natural attacks it has a low chance to do something so go ahead. Words of Creation might have a use if you're a bard. Not really a fan of bards myself but maybe it's worth it.

The feat tax is steep and it's a 2 LA. That's 2 levels of lost class features. Two levels of lost casting, lost bab, lost w/e you are doing. Are the bonuses good? Sure, but for 2 levels and 3 feats they need to be damn good to even be remotely worth considering. If you're in Gestalt, are allowed an LA buyoff or get some amount of free LA then it becomes a lot better but all LA become a lot better in those situations.