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loopy
2007-11-26, 10:12 AM
Hi there. My human rogue (currently level 6) is in a Dragon-centric D&D FR game. My DM has modified the Assassin slightly, exchanging the improved save against poisons to improved saves against dragon effects.

However, that isn't the point of this thread.

I was thinking of having my rogue end up as a:
Rogue 7
Fortune's Friend 5
Assassin 8

Which means he'd end up with 8d6 sneak attack and full assassin spell progression, as well as at least 3 luck feats.

Stats (yeah, I rolled high):
11 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
16 Int
13 Wis
15 Cha

Skills: Maxed social skills, tumble, use magic device, fairly high scores in all the other 'rogue-ish' skills. I get 11 skill points a level, so I'm fairly good at everything. :P
Now, currently, my rogues feats are
H: Combat Expertise
1: Improved Feint
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Lucky Fingers (Complete Scoundrel)

All I know is that in the future I'll be getting Improved Critical (Rapier) at some point. So, I have:

9:
12:
15:
18:

and two bonus luck feats from the Fortune's Friend class:

F1:
F2:

So... anyone got any suggestions as to how to make this build as awesomely awesome as possible? Include items I should be aiming for, or whatever you think is necessary. I'm still fairly new to D&D, but have access to quite a few splatbooks through friends and etc, so... dazzle me!

Thanks for your help (in advance)!

P.S. By the way, my rogue wields a rapier and (currently) a wand of scorching ray. Sneak attack spells ftw!

loopy
2007-11-26, 10:30 PM
Even help with items I should be aiming for would be appreciated.

Nermy
2007-11-26, 10:45 PM
If you have plenty of ranks in Hide and Move Silently you may want to invest in the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness which lets you avoid getting caught by the Blindsense of dragons.

Holocron Coder
2007-11-26, 10:57 PM
I can't suggest much, being a novice rogue-wise myself, but I do know this: Improved critical requires fighter levels (8, if I remember correctly). Go for a Keen, same result.

Chronos
2007-11-26, 11:14 PM
Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical) has a BAB requirement, not a level requirement. Still, though, you're better off paying the money for Keen, and better yet paying for a Scabbard of Keen Edges (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scabbardofKeenEdges), since that way, you don't have to spend a precious weapon enchantment slot on it.

On the rest of it: It looks like you're human, so for your rogue levels, you'll get 12 skill points each, not 11 (8 rogue, +3 int bonus, +1 for human). Assassin levels will only give you 8 points each, though, and I don't know about Fortune's Friend.

For feats, I would recommend getting Improved Initiative in there somewhere. Going first is helpful for anyone, but especially for a rogue, since on the first round your targets will still be flatfooted (and therefore eligible for Sneak Attack).

For equipment, get some extradimensional storage space (such as a [Heward's] Handy Haversack) ASAP. Get some of almost everything on the mundane (and alchemical) equipment list, since some of those things can come in very handy (especially assorted masterwork tools: Note that the +2 bonus stacks with everything), the weight isn't an issue if they're in a Handy Haversack, and the cost is a pittance compared to magical items. For the magical items, I also prefer to go with a Swiss-army-knife approach, with a great many cheaper items for a variety of purposes, rather than a few powerful items. For sample equipment lists, see this rogue build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3555281&postcount=60) I statted out (all core, but should give you the idea).

Human Paragon 3
2007-11-26, 11:19 PM
Staggering Strike is brutally awesome (complete adventurer). Few enemies will be able to make the fortitude saves you'll be triggering in medium to high levels, and denying the bad guys their full attacks and withdraws is truly crippling. Boosting damage is also recommended, via composite bows, enhancement bonuses, extra damage dice, favored enemy, insightful strike or anything you can muster to boost those fortitude saves sky high.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-27, 12:27 AM
See if you can dip one level of Swordsage 9th level to get Assassin's Stance, some nifty manuvers, and access to the Shadow Hand feat which allows you to apply your Dexterity (as well as your Strength) to your damage rolls(the name excapes me at the moment). Picking up Swashbuckler levels and going the Daring Outlaw route wouldn't hurt either. See if you can invest in Two Weapon Fighting (at least the most basic one) at some point to greatly increase your damage output via Sneak Attack. I believe Player's Handbook 2 has a feat (which I also cannot remember the name of) that allows Sneak Attack damage to be applied on a critical hit, regardless of flanking/flat-footed. A neat idea if you have trouble setting up flanks and/or surprising people (due to bad luck or a bad DM). Improved Initiative gives you the opportunity to go first in a round. That means Sneak Attack.

Person_Man
2007-11-27, 10:34 AM
Weak Ideas:

Unless you need it as a pre-req, Combat Expertise is a bad idea. It gives a minor bonus to AC and nerfs your ability to hit. You're a Rogue, just Tumble away if you're in trouble.

Assassin: Not a good idea above ECL 15, because your Death Attack stops scaling, and you never get access to high level spells.

Fortune's Friend: Luck feats can only be used a limited number of times per day, and most of them are very weak. And you only get 2/5 BAB. So this PrC is quite weak.

Lucky Fingers? The ability to re-roll a Disable Device, Open lock, or Sleight of Hand check once per day is a joke.

Improved Feint is a really bad idea. There are a dozen better ways to qualify for Sneak Attack.

Ways to qualify for Sneak Attack include:

1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in a lot of Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

6) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat to ignore your 20% miss chance.

7) Skill Tricks: Check out the Complete Scoundrel.

8) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

9) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

10) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

11) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

12) Hide in Plain Site: A dip into Warlock and let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

13) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

14) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But if you're an Invisble Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat, it works for a full attack.

Strong Ideas:

Weapon Finesse: If you want to be a melee Rogue, this helps a lot.

Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot): I personally prefer archer Rogues to melee Rogues, though either can work well.

Staggering Strike from Complete Adventurer. Works great with a bow build, because you can target multiple enemies, basically limiting everyone you hit to a single Move or Standard action every round.

Maiming Strike from Exemplars of Evil allows you to trade Sneak Attack damage for Cha damage on a 2d6 => 1 basis. Lots of enemies have very low Cha scores, especially animals, magical beasts, and some monstrous humanoids.

Craven from Heroes of Valor adds your character level to your Sneak Attack damage (for example, a 20th level character gets +20 to damage).

The TWF tree will add extra attacks. Or you can add natural attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29095).

If you're not going to go with TWF, pick up a long spear to gain reach. This will give you some battlefield control, which can be improved with appropriate feats (Combat Reflexes, Knock-Down, etc).

If you'd like to pick up 2 levels of Skullclan Hunter from the Miniatures Handbook you gain the ability to deal Sneak Attack damage vs. Undead automatically whenever you hit them (without having to Flank them or whatnot), turning one of the Rogues greatest weaknesses into one of his greatest strengths.

Wand of Flame Blade: Makes hitting enemies ridiculously easy.

loopy
2007-11-27, 12:59 PM
Some really good ideas there Person_Man, though your note on greater invisibility has made me realise that I should share the contents of my party:

6 Rogue (Me, obviously)
5 Fighter/1 Cleric of Moradin
6 Paladin (He was a warlock when we started, died and rerolled)
6 Barbarian (Gnome)

...Yeah. We have a balanced party. Obviously my thieving rogue is well liked by the religious crew.

Now, some comments on your comments!

Combat Expertise is a prereq to Improved Feint, both of those suggested by the more experienced members of the group when I started playing. Improved Feint has been very useful so far, for two main reasons:
1) It allows me to heroically yell out taunts in combat. ("Your sister says hello!")
2) It has been useful for times where the 'tanks' of the party get distracted by something of importance (like something shiny), and charge off.

However, I've acquired a ring of invisibility 5/day, which will be useful in the future.

Lucky Fingers isn't fantastic at the moment, but it leads to some better luck feats, and adds to my total luck pool. Plus the Fortune's Friend PrC gives you 5 extra luck points, adding to the one that I already need as a prereq for the class, which means I'll have 6 luck points. I am pretty unlucky with traps, our DM is evil as far as they go. I've already been knocked into negatives twice by them.

As far as the Assassin goes, I can't really say anything about Death Attack scaling, but the Fortune's Friend gives 2 spell levels, which means I'll be able to get to level 10 assassin spellcasting.

Now, for a noob question. Is BAB really that important?

Continuing down your list...

-I'm not really sure about the TWF thing, as my Rapier/Wand thing is working rather well, though the other feats you mentioned are very intriguing.
-Does the long spear work with weapon finesse, which I already have.
-I'm not sure I could really justify a dip into warlock character wise.

Anyway, not meaning to slam down a lot of your suggestions, they are very interesting, and I am fairly new to the game. If you have any more advice, I'd love to hear it.

cupkeyk
2007-11-27, 01:34 PM
Two PRC's I recommend instead of Fortune's Friend and Assassin are Nightsong Enforcer(Full Bab Rogue PRC, CAdv) and Dragon Devotee(RotD). Nightsong Enforcer boosts SA and gets you Opportunist. Dragon Devotee gives you nifty inherent ability boosts, two levels of sorcerer spellcasting aside from boosting your SA AND netting you those immunities you want without houseruling.


1) It allows me to heroically yell out taunts in combat. ("Your sister says hello!")
2) It has been useful for times where the 'tanks' of the party get distracted by something of importance (like something shiny), and charge off.

The feat you actually want is Goad from Races of Stone (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Goad,RS), not Improved Feint.



-Does the long spear work with weapon finesse, which I already have.
Long spear cannot be finessed.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-27, 01:48 PM
Loopy: To get spellcasting, you need to take levels of Assassin before levels of Fortune's Friend. If you want to maximize Assassin..

Rogue 5/Assassin 1/Fortune's Friend 5/Assassin+9

Bonus Luck Feats: Fortuitous Strike - Reroll attack roll. That will definitely alleviate the BAB problem.

Survivor's Luck - Reroll saving throw.

Person_Man
2007-11-27, 02:28 PM
Now, for a noob question. Is BAB really that important?

Yes. Not only does it increase your chance to hit, it also sets your base # of attacks. Gaining extra attacks is the best way for any precision damage based build to increase its combat effectiveness. I know that its hard to see that at low levels, when you can Feint as a Move action and the make 1 attack as a Standard Action, and still be pulling off the same average damage as the Barbarian standing next to you. But once you hit levels 6+, you really should be making a full attack every single turn to stay on par with other classes, and that full attack needs to have as many attack rolls as possible.


On Feint:

Keep in mind that even with Improved Feint, Feinting is a Move Action. So unless you're an Invisible Blade, you can't Feint and make a Full Attack in the same round. And even then, you need the Surprising Riposte feat to get it to apply to every attack that round. This makes it a very poor tactic.


On Skills:

Instead of Luck feats, there are numerous ways to gain Skill Mastery, which allows you to Take 10 on Skill checks, even when you are rushed or in combat. My favorite is Exemplar, but there are many others.


On Assassin:

Your Death Attack will never go above DC 20 + Int bonus, which means that at ECL 15ish+, most enemies will almost always pass their Save, rendering your Death Attack useless. 1st through 4th level spells are likewise very weak at high levels, when enemies are usually throwing around 5th-9th level spells and effects. So the Assassin is a poor choice for any campaign that goes above ECL 15.

Chronos
2007-11-27, 02:53 PM
OK, it looks like you've already got three folks in your party who are really good at doing damage in combat. With three melee-types already, your Sneak Attack becomes much less important. On the other hand, it looks like your party is somewhat deficient in any area other than putting sharp pieces of metal in other people. So non-combat situations should be your chance to shine.

On Skills:

Instead of Luck feats, there are numerous ways to gain Skill Mastery, which allows you to Take 10 on Skill checks, even when you are rushed or in combat. My favorite is Exemplar, but there are many others.An even simpler way to get it is to stay in Rogue to level 10, at which point it's one of the special abilities you can choose.

cupkeyk
2007-11-27, 03:00 PM
Which brings me to ask, hwo you kids heal yourselves? your cleric and paladin neither have level 2 spells. How about focusing on UMD instead? you can be a blaster/healbot/face.

loopy
2007-11-28, 08:41 AM
Aside from the Fighter/Cleric and Paladins minor healing spells, the paladin has an amulet that gives an AOE cure moderate once per day.

Other than that? I pretty much half an apothecary in my bag of holding. :)

Any other questions that I can answer that will help you help me?