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Kaworu
2022-05-17, 10:11 AM
Hi people :-)

I just finished reading Romance in the Air, a setting/adventure for Fate RPG. I have some questions I would like to ask people who played this module.

I would say that the supplement wasn't bad, but I did not play it. And I wonder... was it good while being played? Because, not coming into my philosophy of tabletop roleplaying, I think we have different games for different purposes. You really "cannot" play a game focused on feelings, politics and social classes in DnD, and you really "cannot" play a dungeon crawler in L5R. I mean, sure, if you wanna you can try, but this isn't the use those games have been created for. And they do not "shine" in such a mode of playing.

I see that Romance in the Air was kinda created for a game similar to L5K (but obviously, it is steampunk, not quasi-Asian country with magic). I do wonder if changes in mechanics were big enough to ease the wheels of such roleplaying experience?

Also, wasn't the game just... kinda boring? I mean, when I read this game, I thought - "okay, so aristocracy is traveling. Fancy balls, tourism, contests of archery and shooting, drinking and playing cards... Urgh, kinda hard to create a game basing on that.". I mean, there is obviously romance, intrigue, big politics being played and some mysteries to reveal, plus the player characters are created in a way which would make some "natural" social trouble between them and other PC/NPC and create a network of inter-personal problems and relationships. But... from reading the book, I was not totally convicted?

Also, personally I think there should be kinda more info on NPCs, like, a hell lot more?

I mean, I didn't play the game yet. And I am not saying that it would be a weird or terrible experience. I simply lack some perspective and I am left in a somehow "dubious" state of mind

So, because I kinda wanna have a clear head, I would like to ask - what are your own experiences with Romance in the Air? What did you like, what did you not? Which was ok, which could be more elaborated on? Did you have fun?

Please, answer me those questions, I feel like I am missing some crucial data... :-)

EDIT: Also, I think this forum topic might contain SPOILERS, so be warned? ;-)

Easy e
2022-05-17, 02:29 PM
Hi people :-)
Also, wasn't the game just... kinda boring? I mean, when I read this game, I thought - "okay, so aristocracy is traveling. Fancy balls, tourism, contests of archery and shooting, drinking and playing cards... Urgh, kinda hard to create a game basing on that.". I mean, there is obviously romance, intrigue, big politics being played and some mysteries to reveal, plus the player characters are created in a way which would make some "natural" social trouble between them and other PC/NPC and create a network of inter-personal problems and relationships. But... from reading the book, I was not totally convicted?

I have never read or played the game, but I will say that this paragraph really struck me.

I guess this game is more for people who like Jane Austin more than J.R.R. Tolkien?

As you point out about games having different niches and experiences, I imagine this one has a similar bend to it.

Anonymouswizard
2022-05-17, 03:40 PM
Romance in the Air is the most standard of the Fate World's of Adventure series by far. It's exactly what you'd expect from light hearted steampulp, which is a bit of a let down when almost every other setting in the line went 'X, but...'

My favourites are:
-Nest: childhood portal fantasy, but it's resummoned old heroes who have grown up because the **** has hit the fan.
-Uranium Chef: competitive cooking, but sci-fi.
-The Aether Sea: Spelljammet, but serious.
-Red Planet: uh, can't talk about this one.
-The Ministry: Quaternass, but with weird aliens

And my personal favourite:
-Under the Table: 1920s gangsters, but King Arthur!


Masters of Umdaar is also quite popular, but those 80s kids' toy commercials cartoons are before my time.

Martin Greywolf
2022-05-18, 04:17 AM
I see that Romance in the Air was kinda created for a game similar to L5K (but obviously, it is steampunk, not quasi-Asian country with magic). I do wonder if changes in mechanics were big enough to ease the wheels of such roleplaying experience?

Also, wasn't the game just... kinda boring? I mean, when I read this game, I thought - "okay, so aristocracy is traveling. Fancy balls, tourism, contests of archery and shooting, drinking and playing cards... Urgh, kinda hard to create a game basing on that.". I mean, there is obviously romance, intrigue, big politics being played and some mysteries to reveal, plus the player characters are created in a way which would make some "natural" social trouble between them and other PC/NPC and create a network of inter-personal problems and relationships. But... from reading the book, I was not totally convicted?

It comes down to not broadening our horizons. DnD was at its inception a wargame and it still kept its mechanics from that era and refused to chage it. That means only mechanically deep part of DnD is combat which works kinda like an XCOM-like shooty puzzle, and that has consequences. The short version is that as a result of DnD being the most popular, its falws are in general reflected into the TTRPG players in general.

Which is a long-winded way to say that you think a game like that is boring because it would be incredibly boring in DnD, and because it would be boring in DnD there are efw people who have experience in taking a game like that and making it not boring.

FATE has three resolution mechanics, overcomes (opposed skill check), contest (several opposed skill checks, first to X victories wins) and conflict. There is nothing stopping you from running a social encounter with conflict rules with all the bells and whistles of creating aspects, using stunts and hitting stress. If you design your game to do this fro the start, then you can have an encnounter with full mechanical depth of FATE conflict centered around making the Duchess look bad in front of the Maharaja's diplomats.

As a result of that, you have the same mechanical complexity and engaging decision-making in social situations as you would have in combat. At that point, the only question that matters is: is this the sort fo game that appeals to you? Because it may well not be, and that is the reason why the supplement sets your teeth on edge.

As for the games I ran or played in FATE, this sort of thing works fine provided that the players are invested in them. I've had more fun having prank wars in Harry Potter slice of life game than I've had in fighting bandits in DnD, simply because I was determined to cover all of Hogwarts in magical glitter and/or temporarily turn everyone into Severus Snape - which was more engaging to me than saving random village number seven from highwaymen.



Also, personally I think there should be kinda more info on NPCs, like, a hell lot more?

That's not as critical in FATE supplements. A FATE NPC can be created in about 30 seconds for the smaller players, 5 minutes for major ones, and the latter especially are supposed to be foils or play off of PC aspects. Which you can't do if you don't have the PC stat blocks. A full adventure with all of its NPCs and example PCs would be a better idea, but I can understand why you may not want to do that in your lightweight splatbook.

Moreover, you have the issues of scope. Sure, you can stat up Konrad von Hotzendorf, but unless the game is taking place in central Europe, that's wasted effort. I recommend doing what I did for my Weird West game - got to wikipedia to find historical people and make your NPCs be either them or their family members. Enomoto Takeaki was an actual Japanese admiral, but that's not gonna stop me from having him scouring all of Mexico for stolen Kusanagi. Also, anyone connected with the British Museum is an excellent villain material.

Kaworu
2022-05-18, 07:34 AM
I see there was a little bit of misunderstanding, maybe I was not clear enough :D Please, lemme explain.

1. I do not like DnD that much. I mean, right now I play one session on these forums, but only because it's 20th level (I like epic stuff). And I would say, I prefer other games - Wod/CoD, L5K, Exalted, Fate.

2. At the same time, I believe that mechanics of a given RPG is like a language - theoretically you can say anything in any language. But, because of differences in grammar and vocab, some languages are "better" in some cases. For example, in Polish, you have no "customisation" word. So if you wanna express that concept, and you do not wanna use a loanword from English (which some language purist would call an language error), you have some troubles.

Still, Polish is a complete system of language communication.

But, of course, when you are learning foreign languages, you will inevitably see that some sentences, even very simple ones, are more or less pretty in some languages than in others. And this might influence your choice of a language, even when you are "just" speaking to yourself / thinking.

And, basically, because of the differences in mechanics (which are similar to differences between languages) we tell different stories in RPGs. L5K is suited to roleplaying, deep psychology of fictional characters, social relationships etc. DnD is suited to fightning dragons. There is not really a "good" way to ST a dungeon crawl in L5K. And STing a game focused only on court intrigue in DnD, with no single attack roll would be kinda weird too, I believe.

Also, it's very pleasant and natural to fight dragons in DnD. And very pleasant and natural to roleplay romance between different Clans members in L5K.

So, my main concern about Romance in the Air was this - are changes in mechanics enough to roleplay a game of bored aristocracy in a tourist airship? I know there have been some changes to fulfill that purpose. However, while reading that, it was my open question "are the changes enough to make the game pleasant and natural? Or would I be bored after some time? Would the wheels get greased? Or would it not work too well?"

It's not about the heavy roleplay and social/psychological stuff itself (which, by the way, I adore in RPGs). It's about if this type of roleplay is supported well by the mechanics and if it is working in this particular instance.

Sorry if I was not clear enough. I hope right now i explained myself better.

Eldan
2022-05-18, 10:56 AM
The answer, I think, is that FATE has mechanics that are quite detached from what you actually do with them.

Everything you do, in FATE, follows the same resolution mechanics. Whether you play a pulp action game and are driving a car over a burning bridge, a high fantasy D&D-like game and swing your sword at a goblin, a detective game and are scanning a crime scene or you are playing Romance in the Air (don't know it yet, seems fun with the right group) and are gossiping about the countess, it's all the exact same dice rolls. And aspects, if your character is for some reason really good at this, or thinks it's very important.

You always roll the exactly same dice, add relevant skills etc. and then tell a story about what happened.

If that is interesting or not depends entirely on you. If you find a story about a group of aristocrats gossiping interesting, then FATE can probably model that adequately well and if the group is into it, it's engaging.

FATE, however, requires the right mindset from everyone involved. The DM has to be a good improviser, and very open with aspects of the scene, and the players have to learn to think the right way and really use their abilities: engage with the scene, think of setbacks they can suffer and advantages they might have, make proclamations, etc.

(The right use of FATE points is essential. Your players must be willing to suffer setbacks occasionally. For example, I had a player make mage in one of my urban fantasy games who occasionally suffer small attacks of uncontrolled magic. During a negotiation with a lawyer, I proposed to him that his fire magic would go out of control and burnt important files on the desk, so the lawyer would kick them out in frustration. The player gladly agreed, because he got a FATE point for that. Ideally, your players will occasionally ask you to fail at stuff: "Hey, my character is X, so he's bad at Y, can I fail this check and get a FATE point" is the kind of thing that really gets a session going.)

Eldan
2022-05-18, 11:07 AM
To build on what a bit, and without knowing the setting at all, let's construct a scene of social intrigue in FATE, so we can think about what it might look like.

The scene:
You are an aristocrat at a ball. Your goal today is to make the Count of Plonkerton look bad, so he will lose a business opportunity to your cousin.

(I'm actually more familiar with Fate Accelerated, I may get some rules terms wrong.)

The ball doesn't actually have to be very detailed. A few ideas from the DM help to start, but then, you can actually improvise a lot between DM and players. It's a ball. There's people dancing, there's tiny plates of food, there's some drinks. There's probably servers, there's of course a lot of every type of aristocrat.

Player 1 wants to expose how much of a coward The Count is. To do this, he wants to engineer A Scene between A Hot-blooded Swordsman and The Count, where The Swordsman would challenge The Count to a duel, at which point the count would lose face and stammeringly apologize, because he doesn't dare fight.
First, a proclamation: there's a Hot-blooded Swordsman in attendance at the ball, the player declares. A series of checks follows. Maneuver the two closer together. Make sure the Swordsman is already slightly drunk and in a bad mood, perhaps by having him receive some bad news. Get the Count to say something that sounds insulting to the Swordman's Fiancee. Get the Swordsman to overhear it. Make sure the Count can't immediately get away.

That's already a scene longer than most D&D fights, and involving a series of checks, probably four or five, each with a description.

Perhaps you could instead bribe a serving maid to make a scene with the Count and pretend to be his illicit lover. Perhaps the Count could lose all his money gambling. Perhaps your favorite uncle is in attendance at the ball and he just happens to be a decorated general, so he's quite willing to humiliate the Count publicly about his cowardly conduct in battle. Perhaps he can just stumble over his own feet and spill his drink over the young princess.


The thing is, your players have to think of these ideas, and the DM has to think through how they would work out and what the obstacles are. Note the characters introduced: the Princess, the Favourite Uncle, the Swordsman, all weren't necessarily in the scene and written up by the DM. The players can suggest those be introduced into a scene, at which point they are then there.

Kaworu
2022-05-18, 03:09 PM
Hm... you are not wrong, and generally I have nothing against FATE or social-based sessions. But... uh... I see at least 2 problems here:

1. You can play a doctor of medicine. Which in itself it cool. Buuuuut... there is not really any kind of mechanics of physical health. I mean, there kinda is, but very, very simplified. And in L5R (btw, when I previously wrote "L5K" I meant "L5R". Sorry, bilingual person here xD). let's say, you can play a doctor too. And there is a lot of mechanics of physical health and more specializations when it comes to "medicine degrees" (not really degrees, but you can be particularly good at healing broken bones, wounds, poisonings etc).

And in Romance in th Air, you are "just" a general doctor. In a setting in which physical health isn't really an issue. And there is no mechanics of healing and speeding the process.

What's then the use of playing a doctor? I mean, it kinda does not make much sense to me (apart from a character idea, which in this case is, I would say, kinda poorly supported by the mechanics?).

2. It's the same with artsy types. You can play an artist - let's say, a violinist - in Romance in the Air. Which is not a bad idea. But apart from the general idea of "there is this skill for art", you kinda... do not know what to do with this? And in L5R, there was w hole culture of valuing artists, communicating hidden ideas through art, receiving and expecting hand-made gifts, even if they are not pricey, maybe even creating a work of art with mystical properties (cause Kami value it or what not). And... I mean, in theory you can be an artist in both of these settings, but it makes to me much more sense in the Legend of the 5 Rings than in Romance in the Air?

I mean, I am not totally opposed to this supplement. But, hm... it seems to me that this story, while might be interesting, I am not saying no, could be better roleplayed in a storytelling way with no mechanics at all, than in this particular instance of Fate with these mechanical modifications?

But I didn't play the game (not sure if I will, since I am not 100% convicted it's that good of a game) so I wanted to have some input of people who actually played and can speak from their own experience?

Batcathat
2022-05-18, 03:43 PM
And in Romance in th Air, you are "just" a general doctor. In a setting in which physical health isn't really an issue. And there is no mechanics of healing and speeding the process.

What's then the use of playing a doctor? I mean, it kinda does not make much sense to me (apart from a character idea, which in this case is, I would say, kinda poorly supported by the mechanics?).

I'm not familiar with the game at all, so this might be completely off, but being a doctor could certainly come with social advantages as well. A dashing doctor is a pretty common romantic archetype, after all.

Eldan
2022-05-18, 03:55 PM
Yeah, in FATE, you rarely heal people. But then, think of Doctor Watson. How often does is him curing someone vital to the case? A doctor has many advantages in a social or investigative game. He's educated, he has a reputation, is probably respected. You can tell what disease someone might have if you read their medical labels. You can diagnose if someone has eaten some bad fish or is actually being poisoned. You could be the gentleman witness at a duel, or a contract signing. Perhaps you can tell that the Viscount Twibbley has recently overcome a case of yellow fever, so has likely just returned from the tropics.

Side note:
I just opened up Dresden Files Accelerated, the only book within reach of me that uses FATE. It has a "medic" mantle. It mentions a list of advantages:
-May write prescriptions.
-Has access to back rooms in hospitals and pharmacies
-Can request medical files on patients
-Knows first aid, can provide long-term care.
-Can be a psychiatrist or a forensic pathologist
-Knows his way around an ambulance
-Can push through a crowd more easily by yelling "let me through, I'm a doctor!"

Lots of ideas what a doctor might do other than healing.

And of course, when someone calls you "Mr. Johnson", you can say "Ahem, that's Doctor Johnson." which is a social advantage roll in my book.

It can also absolutely be a disadvantage, of course. Someone's been shot, the murderer is running away. As a doctor, you are compelled to stay behind and render first aid, you can't chase the suspect without risking your reputation. (Gain a fate point for staying behind, lose one for chasing the suspect.)


And in L5R, there was w hole culture of valuing artists, communicating hidden ideas through art, receiving and expecting hand-made gifts, even if they are not pricey, maybe even creating a work of art with mystical properties (cause Kami value it or what not). And... I mean, in theory you can be an artist in both of these settings, but it makes to me much more sense in the Legend of the 5 Rings than in Romance in the Air?


You can use all of these in a game of fate. Well, maybe not the mystical gift, in a given setting. But the scene can easily go like this: "You're being introduced to the Duchess." "I present her with a handmade gift. Using a fate point to activate my "Artist" aspect, she especially values handmade gifts." "Very nice, that's a plus two on your roll to make a first impression."

Or

"I want to paint a painting that looks impressive, but subtly conveys the idea that the Prince is weak." "Okay, roll art, plus a fate point for using your artist aspect" "+5" "Excellent. You have subtly weakened the prince's reputation. Write that down as an aspect if you meet him again."

Or of course, simply:

"I flirt with the young lady, and subtly drop the idea that I'm a romantic poet." "Yup, she likes that idea. Flat +2 on your roll".


This is the thing I think is generally important about many FATE products: they have very little handholding. You are basically never told "Here's a list of things you can do", you're expected to think of tropes that fit the situation by yourself. A good FATE book will have enough setting information to give you ideas.

Playing FATE takes practise. It's very different from other games in many ways.