What the heck is with Shadar-Kai

[Skrum]

They are so far above any other racial option I'm like searching for an explanation.

- Necrotic Resist, a very common damage type
- Trance (not that notable, but nifty)
- elven, so gain access to one of the best feats in the game in Elven Accuracy

And finally....Blessing of the Raven Queen. What the actual &^&$

Misty Step that isn't misty step, meaning it can be used while raging, while in silence, while bound, etc etc etc. And AND, it gives resistance to all damage. And now with MotMV, it's usable proficiency bonus times per LR.

I just can't get over how good this is.

[strangebloke]

They're HELLA busted, yeah. Might be the best race in the game now, though the new kobolds are up there too.

[Skrum]

They're HELLA busted, yeah. Might be the best race in the game now, though the new kobolds are up there too.

Kobolds are really good, it's true. I think a couple of things make them not quite as good as Shadar-Kai though

- not elves. Elven Accuracy really is that good; not being an elf is a notable weakness compared to a race that is an elf
- small size. The situations where being small is useful are so unlikely to come up I'm going to say being small is strictly worse than being medium. It's a pretty significant weakness too, not being able to use another very powerful feat in GWM
- Draconic Cry is a bit table dependent. If you don't play with the alternative flanking rules, this ability becomes extremely good. But a lot of tables do use those rules, which reduces the value of this quite a bit.

[Psyren]

Don't forget Darkvision and three free proficiencies (two tools/weapons + Perception).



Misty Step that isn't misty step, meaning it can be used while raging, while in silence, while bound, etc etc etc.

Just as a reminder, regular Misty Step can also be used while bound (no somatic component.)

[Skrum]

Don't forget Darkvision and three free proficiencies (two tools/weapons + Perception).



Just as a reminder, regular Misty Step can also be used while bound (no somatic component.)

OK that's true. But still. It not being a spell is pretty significant. Can't be countered, for instance.

[Dork_Forge]

They're really good, but MPMM took some races and just threw out any notion of balance. Shadar Kai are absolutely crazy, and then you look at a pretty good side-grade in the Eladrin, or the nuts melee capacity of the Bugbear.

Then on the other end of the spectrum some races got practically trashed in comparison (Aasimar for instance).

[Psyren]

Uh no, Aasimar did great. Celestial Revelation might be numerically a bit smaller, but bonus action instead of action is still massive and a net positive for most builds. Consumption and Shroud also lost their friendly fire aspects, and Healing Hands got a buff, because 2.5*proficiency on average beats 1*level.

And that's on top of being able to choose Small size for indoor mounted builds, and getting an additional +1 to your ability scores even if you chose Cha for the +2.

[strangebloke]

They're really good, but MPMM took some races and just threw out any notion of balance. Shadar Kai are absolutely crazy, and then you look at a pretty good side-grade in the Eladrin, or the nuts melee capacity of the Bugbear.

Then on the other end of the spectrum some races got practically trashed in comparison (Aasimar for instance).

Pretty much every race in the book got buffed, some more than others (orc is like a whole new race) but the ones that are 'trashed' are more like the new fire genasi. It got buffed, but it was arguably one of the worst races outside volo's to begin with whereas now its... still worse than PHB tiefling with floating ASIs.

[stoutstien]

Uh no, Aasimar did great. Celestial Revelation might be numerically a bit smaller, but bonus action instead of action is still massive and a net positive for most builds. Consumption and Shroud also lost their friendly fire aspects, and Healing Hands got a buff, because 2.5*proficiency on average beats 1*level.

And that's on top of being able to choose Small size for indoor mounted builds, and getting an additional +1 to your ability scores even if you chose Cha for the +2.

The healing actually comes out a little bit behind but overall I agree they came out okay. The change is make it perfect for my star spawn priest build.

[Dork_Forge]

Uh no, Aasimar did great. Celestial Revelation might be numerically a bit smaller, but bonus action instead of action is still massive and a net positive for most builds. Consumption and Shroud also lost their friendly fire aspects, and Healing Hands got a buff, because 2.5*proficiency on average beats 1*level.

And that's on top of being able to choose Small size for indoor mounted builds, and getting an additional +1 to your ability scores even if you chose Cha for the +2.

Let's break it down then, first the most glaring error and I don't know what's going on with WotC that it got published: They're still Cha dependent on some stuff. That makes no sense with their design shift and looks like sloppy editing of the original.

Healing hands: Changing a healing ability from a certainty to dice rolling needs to be better than what they made it. Whilst the average is sometimes better than the level equivalent, you're as likely to roll under the average as you are over it. And then even if you do take the average... it just isn't better across the board. Starting at 8th level and getting worse as levels increase, it dips in and out of being slightly better as proficiency increases. This change is one of the things that held the Aasimar player in one of my games back from switching over, she really doesn't like the idea of giving up a certain 10 (atm) for some dice, especially since Healing Hands comes into play most days.

Celestial Revelation: This isn't 'a bit smaller,' proficiency instead of level is just a straight-up nerf at every level except 1st. If they had changed it to more frequently than once per long rest then maybe this wouldn't be the case, but it still is once per long rest.

Necrotic Shroud: minor improvement, still Cha dependent.

Radiant Consumption: Nothing about the wording says it doesn't do friendly fire anymore. At most it just doesn't hurt you, which is small consolation when you're already resistant to the tiny amount of damage it now does anyway.

You can't freely use the choose-your-own stats because multiple parts of the race are still Cha dependent, the damage is a piddly shadow of its former self, the healing ability lost the only thing it had going for it- its reliability, and the only net benefit is the transformation is now a bonus action.

Choosing to be small is little benefit, especially since that makes the bonus action transformation worse with a lot of mounted builds that use subclass companions.


Pretty much every race in the book got buffed, some more than others (orc is like a whole new race) but the ones that are 'trashed' are more like the new fire genasi. It got buffed, but it was arguably one of the worst races outside volo's to begin with whereas now its... still worse than PHB tiefling with floating ASIs.

Minotaur is arguably just worse

Goblin traded respectable nova damage for less damage and charm resistance (a wash at best)

Aarakocra became less appealing than Owlin or Fairies.

[MisterD]

I have A STR based Vengeance Paladin that is a Chosen of the Raven Queen so no Elven Accuracy for me, but it is in theme. And is fun.

[Psyren]

The healing actually comes out a little bit behind but overall I agree they came out okay. The change is make it perfect for my star spawn priest build.

d4*prof ranges from 5-24 on average (and can spike as high as 48, though that's unlikely) vs. 1-20, so I'm still not seeing it. Maybe at a couple of levels in there 1*lvl catches up or briefly pulls ahead but on average the new progression should be superior at most levels and definitely at the lowest and highest end.


Let's break it down then, first the most glaring error and I don't know what's going on with WotC that it got published: They're still Cha dependent on some stuff. That makes no sense with their design shift and looks like sloppy editing of the original.

Healing hands: Changing a healing ability from a certainty to dice rolling needs to be better than what they made it. Whilst the average is sometimes better than the level equivalent, you're as likely to roll under the average as you are over it. And then even if you do take the average... it just isn't better across the board. Starting at 8th level and getting worse as levels increase, it dips in and out of being slightly better as proficiency increases. This change is one of the things that held the Aasimar player in one of my games back from switching over, she really doesn't like the idea of giving up a certain 10 (atm) for some dice, especially since Healing Hands comes into play most days.

Celestial Revelation: This isn't 'a bit smaller,' proficiency instead of level is just a straight-up nerf at every level except 1st. If they had changed it to more frequently than once per long rest then maybe this wouldn't be the case, but it still is once per long rest.

Necrotic Shroud: minor improvement, still Cha dependent.

Radiant Consumption: Nothing about the wording says it doesn't do friendly fire anymore. At most it just doesn't hurt you, which is small consolation when you're already resistant to the tiny amount of damage it now does anyway.

You can't freely use the choose-your-own stats because multiple parts of the race are still Cha dependent, the damage is a piddly shadow of its former self, the healing ability lost the only thing it had going for it- its reliability, and the only net benefit is the transformation is now a bonus action.

Choosing to be small is little benefit, especially since that makes the bonus action transformation worse with a lot of mounted builds that use subclass companions.

Already covered the healing, and for the rest:

Revelation: you're still ignoring that activating this as a BONUS ACTION is much less costly than an ACTION in terms of overall DPR, especially when most fights get decided within ~3-4 rounds. This is especially true for Soul because bonus action flight means you're much more likely to get into the fray on your first round rather than wasting it, particularly if flying enemies, difficult terrain or other obstacles are a factor.
Cha dependency: Yes, you'll probably still want to use a Cha-based class with this race, but at best that means you're no worse off than you were before. You also get a +1 you didn't have before. (Note too that you're overblowing this point anyway - Radiant Soul and Radiant Consumption Aasimar don't actually need Cha for anything.)
Radiant: You might be resistant, but taking no damage every round still beats taking some damage every round.
Able to be Small size: This matters because thanks to the Cha dependency, one of the best classes for this race is going to be paladin, so being able to mount up inside any dungeon is going to be pretty impactful for them.

[Skrum]

orc is like a whole new race

As a huge fan of orcs (they are my favorite race), I'm pretty salty about the changes they got lol. Yes they got Relentless Endurance, but Aggressive got significantly worse, and they lost 2 skill proficiencies. That's...not good. The got an ability that they should've had to begin with, but all of their existing traits got taken away or nerfed. I'm not going to say it was a completely lateral change because Relentless Endurance really is pretty good, but eish, I was thinking it'd be more like "orcs get Relentless Endurance, and also new ability X."

[Psyren]

As a huge fan of orcs (they are my favorite race), I'm pretty salty about the changes they got lol. Yes they got Relentless Endurance, but Aggressive got significantly worse, and they lost 2 skill proficiencies. That's...not good. The got an ability that they should've had to begin with, but all of their existing traits got taken away or nerfed. I'm not going to say it was a completely lateral change because Relentless Endurance really is pretty good, but eish, I was thinking it'd be more like "orcs get Relentless Endurance, and also new ability X."

Relentless Endurance wasn't the only benefit. Adrenaline Rush, while now having a use limit, is much more versatile now - it's explicitly the Dash action, so it scales with other boosts to your walking speed. In addition, it triggers things that trigger on you Dashing or can benefit you in instances that care if you're Dashing, like Chases. And finally, you aren't locked to moving closer to an enemy, you can use your bonus Dash to retreat from danger or run to an ally's side. And on top of all that, you get temporary hit points for using it.

I agree with Primal Intuition being an unfortunate loss but I understand why they got rid of it. Orcs were the most scrutinized race going into these changes so any cultural implications through their racials have potential to be misconstrued. Better to keep things as physiological as possible, which the current racials do.

[stoutstien]

Healing hands being 1d4 per Prof works out to
Low/average/high
2/5/8
3/7.5/12
4/10/16
5/12.5/20
6/15/24

Not bad or good. Better if you can do something like a gift chain lock to maximize it but all in all it's not a bad chunk of HP. I preferred the fixed amount just because it was unique.

[Skrum]

Aggressive was already "move up to your speed" so it's dash without being called dash. I believe a piece of errata also said the ability just couldn't be used to end up further away, so especially on a battle field with enemies around, that wasn't very limited at all (for melee builds. I agree this is more of a positive change for ranged builds).

But the quite limited times per day really bugs me. The ability is better, but not THAT much better. But because every racial is now proficiency bonus times/LR, it gets the limit despite it being at best a mediocre ability.

Tortles got their racial skill list expanded! And they were already a better race than orcs, pre or post MotMV! I just don't see what they were seeing.

[Dork_Forge]

d4*prof ranges from 5-24 on average (and can spike as high as 48, though that's unlikely) vs. 1-20, so I'm still not seeing it. Maybe at a couple of levels in there 1*lvl catches up or briefly pulls ahead but on average the new progression should be superior at most levels and definitely at the lowest and highest end.

No... That's not how that works?

Average 5-15

Max 8-24

The average just isn't good enough to warrant the randomness.


Revelation: you're still ignoring that activating this as a BONUS ACTION is much less costly than an ACTION in terms of overall DPR, especially when most fights get decided within ~3-4 rounds. This is especially true for Soul because bonus action flight means you're much more likely to get into the fray on your first round rather than wasting it, particularly if flying enemies, difficult terrain or other obstacles are a factor.

No... I actually specifically mentioned that in the post you quoted.

This is a once per LR ability, meaning you'll probably want to save it for toughre fights. On top of that, the damage difference is so significant that you have to do something offensive with that relatively gained action, and succeed with it, for it to matter at all.

A fly speed equal to your walking speed does not necessarily mean you'll get anywhere faster.


Cha dependency: Yes, you'll probably still want to use a Cha-based class with this race, but at best that means you're no worse off than you were before. You also get a +1 you didn't have before. (Note too that you're overblowing this point anyway - Radiant Soul and Radiant Consumption Aasimar don't actually need Cha for anything.)

Paladins could play an Aasimar already and get relevant ability bumps, the +1 isn't new in general, just a bit more flexible.

And I'm not overblowing this point at all, one of three options is dependent on a Cha-based DC. Light also uses it, that's less of a practical issue and more a glaring design fault. Making Shroud a Cha based option nukes its appeal thoroughly, reducing appealing options for most classes by a third seems like a fail.


Radiant: You might be resistant, but taking no damage every round still beats taking some damage every round.

When the trade off is doing minor chip damage instead of actually significant damage, that doesn't become so rosy. The damage aura is now just a ribbon unless you're fighting a horde with some kind of weakness to radiant damage.


Able to be Small size: This matters because thanks to the Cha dependency, one of the best classes for this race is going to be paladin, so being able to mount up inside any dungeon is going to be pretty impactful for them.

Not only is this a very niche benefit from 5th level onwards, a mastiff has 5 hit points. They aren't going to be mounted in a dungeon for long when it will die at the drop of a hat.

[Psyren]

@stoutstien, thanks for the correction.


Aggressive was already "move up to your speed" so it's dash without being called dash. I believe a piece of errata also said the ability just couldn't be used to end up further away, so especially on a battle field with enemies around, that wasn't very limited at all (for melee builds. I agree this is more of a positive change for ranged builds).

But the quite limited times per day really bugs me. The ability is better, but not THAT much better. But because every racial is now proficiency bonus times/LR, it gets the limit despite it being at best a mediocre ability.

Tortles got their racial skill list expanded! And they were already a better race than orcs, pre or post MotMV! I just don't see what they were seeing.

Looking at the errata file linked earlier, Aggressive wasn't changed - you have to be closer to the enemy than you started, being equidistant is as forbidden as being further away.

And again, not being called Dash does matter. For example, Aggressive doesn't work with the Mobile feat, but Adrenaline Rush does.

@D_F: Tougher fights might take longer but they're also the ones where every round counts, so being able to do something as a bonus action is still a benefit. Doing zero damage for the first round because you needed to turn your aura on is a big deal. Light being based on Cha barely means anything in practice; you can simply cast it on one of your objects or something unattended and negate the save entirely, so the Cha dependency is still vastly overblown. You can dump Cha entirely as an Aasimar now and so long as you're not Necrotic, you're no worse off. And a Peryton is medium and has much more than 5 HP, on top of you being able to share your spells with it, but you can also ride your Beast of the Land or Steel Defender etc.

[Dork_Forge]

@stoutstien, thanks for the correction.

And your opinion of it now you know it's half what you thought it was?



And again, not being called Dash does matter. For example, Aggressive doesn't work with the Mobile feat, but Adrenaline Rush does.

What? The only part of the Mobile feat Aggressive doesn't work with is the ignoring difficult terrain bullet point, the one that likely comes up least and probably isn't why anyone is taking it?


@D_F: Tougher fights might take longer but they're also the ones where every round counts, so being able to do something as a bonus action is still a benefit. Doing zero damage for the first round because you needed to turn your aura on is a big deal.

Using your action for your transformation =/= doing nothing. Depending what you chose you can be frightening or actively damaging the enemy, and then you have your bonus action. Which you can use on things like the mounts you're suggesting later in this post, buff spells etc.


Let's say this is a Scourge (or whatever the replacement is called) at 5th level in a tougher fight taking 6 rounds. For disclosure I pulled that number out of thin air before doing any math.

This will assume a single enemy because, well it doesn't make a difference to anything if it's one or many and it makes the numbers a little faster.*

Edit: * I now realise the more enemies hit by the aura the more significant the lead the Volo's version has, which... just illustrates my point.

Damage is only from the transformation assuming one hit per turn
Volos: 55 (11*5)
MPMM damage: 36 (12*3)

So that's a difference of 19 that the gained action needs to account for, let's say a Paladin with a +4 Str:

Longsword (dueling) - 21 (if both hit)

Glaive - 19

For that action to really matter you need to hit both attacks to pull ahead very slightly or break even, or smite on a single hit.

This is the best-case scenario for the MPMM Aasimar, at every level the damage difference that action needs to account for will increase. It never catches up, it only falls further behind, pressuring you to burn more resources on that action to make up the difference.

And then when it's all over you get to heal yourself for who knows how much, yay.


Light being based on Cha barely means anything in practice; you can simply cast it on one of your objects or something unattended and negate the save entirely, so the Cha dependency is still vastly overblown.

What? I explicitly said that the light part of it wasn't much of a mechanical issue, it just highlights 'what were they thinking?' Please don't state I'm overflowing something when you're misrepresenting my position.


You can dump Cha entirely as an Aasimar now and so long as you're not Necrotic, you're no worse off. And a Peryton is medium and has much more than 5 HP, on top of you being able to share your spells with it, but you can also ride your Beast of the Land or Steel Defender etc.



Oh, so you only need a 13th level Paladin now instead of a 5th, you really showed me there.

And you mean the mounts that require your action to command to do anything but move and dodge? You're trading damage from the action for damage from the bonus action.

You're jumping through a lot of hoops here and it still isn't a clear benefit.

[Psyren]

And your opinion of it now you know it's half what you thought it was?]

Still fine.


What? The only part of the Mobile feat Aggressive doesn't work with is the ignoring difficult terrain bullet point, the one that likely comes up least and probably isn't why anyone is taking it?

I don't care "why they take it," a mechanical difference is a mechanical difference.


Using your action for your transformation =/= doing nothing.

Actions still generally have more impact on a fight than bonus actions, so it's still generally a buff, especially for martials.


What? I explicitly said that the light part of it wasn't much of a mechanical issue, it just highlights 'what were they thinking?' Please don't state I'm overflowing something when you're misrepresenting my position.

"Cha dependent" is definitely overblowing.


Oh, so you only need a 13th level Paladin now instead of a 5th, you really showed me there.

You're right, all character builds and dungeon crawls usually stop by 5th level. You showed me too!

[Nefariis]

Apparently it's just me that think Aarakocra introduced the opportunity for the dumbest shenanigans by rewriting what I thought was already just 'meh' anyways.

The text says that your "fly speed is equal to your walking speed".

So a Mobile Elk Barbarian / Rogue Scout has an advantage and expertise on grapples, a reaction move 50ft, and on turn movement of 95ft. Add Haste and Boots of Speed for 400 feet of fly speed or 200 for reaction off turn reaction movement - and this build is ignoring monk / not even the most optimized for speed.

This was just such an unneeded change

[strangebloke]

Why are we talking about Aasimar?

Anyway, I think the Shadar-Kai is good, perhaps even the best race overall, but its not truly bonkers. Everything outside Blessing of the Raven Queen is pretty standard elf stuff, and while BotRQ is insane I'm not sure it beats out oldschool Aaracockra flight cheese or the insane DPR of the new kobold ability.

I've seen that new kobold ability in action, its insane in combination with a lot of stuff that's already crazy strong. The party kobold updated to this ability relatively recently and the party hexblade with EA took out half a dragon's life bar in a single turn. Triple advantage + expanded crit range + crit smites = lots of damage, who knew. Then my BM and the paladin jumped in and the whole fight was over.

[x3n0n]

Apparently it's just me that think Aarakocra introduced the opportunity for the dumbest shenanigans by rewriting what I thought was already just 'meh' anyways.

The text says that your "fly speed is equal to your walking speed".

So a Mobile Elk Barbarian / Rogue Scout has an advantage and expertise on grapples, a reaction move 50ft, and on turn movement of 95ft. Add Haste and Boots of Speed for 400 feet of fly speed or 200 for reaction off turn reaction movement - and this build is ignoring monk / not even the most optimized for speed.

This was just such an unneeded change

Well, the old version already had a *base* fly speed of 50, and the other flying races (and Winged Boots) share the new wording. Everyone I've seen comment thinks this is a nerf, not a buff.

[Psyren]

Why are we talking about Aasimar?

He believed they got quote "trashed."


Well, the old version already had a *base* fly speed of 50, and the other flying races (and Winged Boots) share the new wording. Everyone I've seen comment thinks this is a nerf, not a buff.

Base 50 is nice (not so much 25 walking speed) but generally, walking is easier to buff than flying.

[strangebloke]

Base 50 is nice (not so much 25 walking speed) but generally, walking is easier to buff than flying.

On the one hand, yes, on the other hand, its not that much easier? Longstrider and mobile and monk bonuses both apply to speed, not just fly speed. Unless you can get over 50 speed with bonuses that only apply to walking speed, this is strictly a nerf. Only things I'm aware of is Elk totem and zephyr strike, which don't even work together (and zephyr strike only works on one turn).

And like. If you go elk totem you're still slower than an oldschool Aaracockra, even when raging, and you've given up the ability to go bear totem or wolf totem.

[Hael]

Shadar Kai is really strong. But strong in the conventional sense, not game breaking like flight speed can be or how pack tactics used to be.

I’m more irratated with how good the Harengorn bard was I just played with over the weekend. Its yet another unbelievably good caster option that provides them all they need to escape, and to get initiative when they need it.

Its all getting a little too easy with some of these races.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

My question would be: how do you rate it compared to Custom Lineage?
My general sense would be that CL is probably better for SAD characters at lower levels. Starting with an 18 and 1/2 feat is tough to compete with for many classes. As you level the Elf eventually gets more uses of the quazi-Misty Step and catches up with it's main Ability.
For MAD classes I don't really see CL as a bump since you're trading your 16s for a 15 and an 18. The elf is probably at least on par out of the box.

[Skrum]

My question would be: how do you rate it compared to Custom Lineage?
My general sense would be that CL is probably better for SAD characters at lower levels. Starting with an 18 and 1/2 feat is tough to compete with for many classes. As you level the Elf eventually gets more uses of the quazi-Misty Step and catches up with it's main Ability.
For MAD classes I don't really see CL as a bump since you're trading your 16s for a 15 and an 18. The elf is probably at least on par out of the box.

A good point. And yeah, I'm inclined to agree. TCL sub 5 (even 8) is pretty hard to compete with.

I hate TCL though lol. Won't play one on principle.

[Dork_Forge]

Still fine.

We've established that it isn't the same, so is it a buff or a nerf?


I don't care "why they take it," a mechanical difference is a mechanical difference.

'Doesn't work with Mobile' isn't the same as 'doesn't work with one, minor, part of Mobile,' contrary to how you were presenting it an Aggressive ORc has plenty of reasons to take Mobile, it actually synergises with Aggressive pretty well.


Actions still generally have more impact on a fight than bonus actions, so it's still generally a buff, especially for martials.

So you're just going to completely ignore the damage deficit that action has to overcome for "actions still generally have more impact?" The action of setting the transformation up is doing something and martials are better off with it than a spell caster (Action Surge, Rage, Cunning Action, SotW, Patient Defense, Hunter's Mark etc.).

You glossed over any actual detail and just reiterated your stance, that is not a defense or an argument for it.


"Cha dependent" is definitely overblowing.

Again, you're ignoring the majority of what I'm saying to double down on what suits you. One of three options is Cha dependent and a core spell keys off it for no reason. It's a design flaw at minimum and shooting the fear option in the foot at worst.


You're right, all character builds and dungeon crawls usually stop by 5th level. You showed me too!

If you have to wait until 13th level to have a meaningful benefit from part of your race, then that isn't a good sign. And you certainly have crawls after that, I'm running two Tier 3 ones right now! And the Aasimar has been leveraging her entire racial suite of features since level 3 (when we started).

The Peryton example was clutching at straws and you know it.


Apparently it's just me that think Aarakocra introduced the opportunity for the dumbest shenanigans by rewriting what I thought was already just 'meh' anyways.

The text says that your "fly speed is equal to your walking speed".


I don't think this has the effect you think it does, it's always been very easy to ramp the flying speed with buffs that just don't specify 'walking.'


Shadar Kai is really strong. But strong in the conventional sense, not game breaking like flight speed can be or how pack tactics used to be.

I'd agree with this, the teleport can come in clutch at times, but it won't drastically alter gameplay.


I’m more irratated with how good the Harengorn bard was I just played with over the weekend. Its yet another unbelievably good caster option that provides them all they need to escape, and to get initiative when they need it.

I'd really agree with this, Harengon is a very powerful option for pretty much everyone. It's actually a little worse on the Bard since they get some initiative boost from Jack of All Trades.


Its all getting a little too easy with some of these races.

The power creep is real and getting worse by the book.


My question would be: how do you rate it compared to Custom Lineage?
My general sense would be that CL is probably better for SAD characters at lower levels. Starting with an 18 and 1/2 feat is tough to compete with for many classes. As you level the Elf eventually gets more uses of the quazi-Misty Step and catches up with it's main Ability.
For MAD classes I don't really see CL as a bump since you're trading your 16s for a 15 and an 18. The elf is probably at least on par out of the box.

I don't really rate CL that highly, I think a single +2 is just clunkier than V Human with the only real pay off being the option of darkvision. So IMO Shadar Kai blows that out the water.

[Skrum]

I don't really rate CL that highly, I think a single +2 is just clunkier than V Human with the only real pay off being the option of darkvision. So IMO Shadar Kai blows that out the water.

Dark vision is really good though.

Also, because of the feat, it's not really a +2, it's generally a +3, plus the other benefits of the feat. That's really strong. When other characters are just taking their first feat, TCL is capping their main stat. That's incredibly good for casters especially.

[Leon]

Its a option, some people will flock to it because its apparent strength, some people will use it because they like the race for what it is outside of mechanics and others wont care and keep on playing other things.

[stoutstien]

The only thing that really peeks my interest about them is it possible mitigation they can get from the resistance when they teleport. I like high mitigation concepts but not enough to play another elf.

[Psyren]

The Peryton example was clutching at straws and you know it.

I listed multiple other examples of scaling Medium mounts (Steel Defender, Animal Companion, Primal Companion) and can add even more (Drake companion, Lorehold mascot, summons etc), all of which are even more viable for Aasimar now that they have floating ASIs - but I don't actually care about continuing to derail with you, let's move on.


The only thing that really peeks my interest about them is it possible mitigation they can get from the resistance when they teleport. I like high mitigation concepts but not enough to play another elf.

Have you given Earth Genasi a look, with their bonus action Blade Ward?

[stoutstien]

Have you given Earth Genasi a look, with their bonus action Blade Ward?

It's interesting but the shadar is better for a few reasons. Not a spell, works for all damage not just B/S/P weapons, and teleport is better than earth glide
(depending on sight blockage)

Saying that getting PWT is a big perk.

I'd probably pick the genasi over the elf because its not an elf though I'm more of a hobgoblin guy.

[strangebloke]

It's interesting but the shadar is better for a few reasons. Not a spell, works for all damage not just B/S/P weapons, and teleport is better than earth glide
(depending on sight blockage)

Saying that getting PWT is a big perk.

I'd probably pick the genasi over the elf because its not an elf though I'm more of a hobgoblin guy.

I agree, the genasi ability is a lot worse. In addition to everything you said, you need a free hand to cast it which means you're either missing a shield or a weapon. Not a problem for all builds, but definitely a problem for some.

[stoutstien]

I agree, the genasi ability is a lot worse. In addition to everything you said, you need a free hand to cast it which means you're either missing a shield or a weapon. Not a problem for all builds, but definitely a problem for some.

Or have Warcaster but yea it suffer from a lot tiny issues. Not enough to make it uninteresting but enough to wonder why they just didn't make it work more intuitively. Not hard to write of a feature that does the same thing without using spell casting.
Id probably say if it's just going to work on the big three damage types from weapons it also could use a little more. Maybe a mini rock ward that gives you that Reis for few rounds or something.

[Psyren]

It's interesting but the shadar is better for a few reasons. Not a spell, works for all damage not just B/S/P weapons, and teleport is better than earth glide
(depending on sight blockage)

Saying that getting PWT is a big perk.

I'd probably pick the genasi over the elf because its not an elf though I'm more of a hobgoblin guy.


I agree, the genasi ability is a lot worse. In addition to everything you said, you need a free hand to cast it which means you're either missing a shield or a weapon. Not a problem for all builds, but definitely a problem for some.

Oh it's definitely worse than Shadar-Kai, not arguing that at all, but if the interest was for quote "mitigation concepts" - they get an okay one built in.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Dark vision is really good though.

Also, because of the feat, it's not really a +2, it's generally a +3, plus the other benefits of the feat. That's really strong. When other characters are just taking their first feat, TCL is capping their main stat. That's incredibly good for casters especially.

My view is that the most SAD characters are Rogues since their AC is also tied to Dex (and Dex is one of the common saves). That said, to me these are the characters that benefit most from CL. And, as you say, they aren't hamstrung by lack of Dark vision, like VHumans.

[Dork_Forge]

Is darkvision really considered that big a deal? Besides there being several ways to achieve it (or better), ime it only matters at all of everyone in the party has it and you disregards it's downsides.

[Amechra]

My view is that the most SAD characters are Rogues since their AC is also tied to Dex (and Dex is one of the common saves). That said, to me these are the characters that benefit most from CL. And, as you say, they aren't hamstrung by lack of Dark vision, like VHumans.

Fighters and Rogues are the classes that win at ability scores in 5e, since they both really only need a single ability score (Dex for Rogues, Str/Dex for Fighters). Which makes it kinda ironic that those are the two classes that get extra ASIs.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Is darkvision really considered that big a deal? Besides there being several ways to achieve it (or better), ime it only matters at all of everyone in the party has it and you disregards it's downsides.

I don't consider dark vision huge. I consider dark vision + a +2 bump on top of a 1/2 feat to prime ability for SAD characters pretty significant. I know not everyone uses point buy, but an 18 as a starting ability is a big deal when everyone else is restricted to 16/17 at tables that do.

[Dork_Forge]

I don't consider dark vision huge. I consider dark vision + a +2 bump on top of a 1/2 feat to prime ability for SAD characters pretty significant. I know not everyone uses point buy, but an 18 as a starting ability is a big deal when everyone else is restricted to 16/17 at tables that do.

Ahh, yeah I don't consider an 18 at 1st level such a huge advantage over the alternative, and by exclusively choosing half feats you're limiting the potential of the free feat.

I mean even SAD characters want a decent-good Con and probably secondary/tertiary stat. No class is truly SAD, not even Rogues and Dex Fighters.

I'd certainly weigh a lot of racial abilities are more impactful than being slightly ahead of the curve on primary stat progression.

[Phhase]

Looking at it, the fact that it resists all damage and allows you to target midair with the teleport makes me want to use it as a combo piece for a guillotine plunging attack gimmick build. Perfect for resisting the fall damage while getting some height to slam jam on your opponents with.

[Psyren]

Fighters and Rogues are the classes that win at ability scores in 5e, since they both really only need a single ability score (Dex for Rogues, Str/Dex for Fighters). Which makes it kinda ironic that those are the two classes that get extra ASIs.

To this day I don't understand why Monks and Barbarians didn't get any. Paladins and Rangers I can kinda understand due to their spellcasting training, at the very least it's an excuse.

[Dork_Forge]

To this day I don't understand why Monks and Barbarians didn't get any. Paladins and Rangers I can kinda understand due to their spellcasting training, at the very least it's an excuse.

Rogues and Fighters don't get as many class features, so they get additional ASIs (potentially to also double down on the whole they can be anything aspect of the classes).

Monks get an insane amount of features throughout their entire progression, and have a much clearer general identity, the same is true (perhaps to a lesser degree) of Barbarians.

[Psyren]

Rogues and Fighters don't get as many class features, so they get additional ASIs (potentially to also double down on the whole they can be anything aspect of the classes).

Monks get an insane amount of features throughout their entire progression, and have a much clearer general identity, the same is true (perhaps to a lesser degree) of Barbarians.

That might have been the rationale, but the extra features those two get are pretty lackluster. I'd much rather have another ASI than, say, Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Brutal Critical personally.

[Dork_Forge]

That might have been the rationale, but the extra features those two get are pretty lackluster. I'd much rather have another ASI than, say, Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Brutal Critical personally.

Brutal Critical is lackluster feature in general, but I don't get changing tongue of the sun and moon for an ASI. 13th level the Monk just got an ASI and is receiving a PB bump in addition to more Ki, Tongue is just a roleplay feature.

Replacing an RP feature with an ASI is one-sided power creep and most of the features people tend to complain about on a Monk are features that most classes don't even get an equivalent of.

[Jervis]

Brutal Critical is lackluster feature in general, but I don't get changing tongue of the sun and moon for an ASI. 13th level the Monk just got an ASI and is receiving a PB bump in addition to more Ki, Tongue is just a roleplay feature.

Replacing an RP feature with an ASI is one-sided power creep and most of the features people tend to complain about on a Monk are features that most classes don't even get an equivalent of.

Maybe Unpopular opinion but toungue of sun and moon should come online much earlier as should Diamond soul. Honestly both of them should be a level 6-7ish feature. Maybe in place of evasion they got those two features rolled together at 7. And too anyone that says proficiency in all saves at 7 is OP, may I remind you that Paladin exists and just adds their charisma mod to their owns saves in addition to everyone else’s. Diamond soul is the same bonus at this level assuming average stats. Granted a Paladin could be in your party and giving you those buffs but monk needs nice things.

Plus tongue of sun and moon lets your voice be out of sink with your lip movements like a cheesy martial arts movie. And that’s just cool

[Dork_Forge]

Maybe Unpopular opinion but toungue of sun and moon should come online much earlier as should Diamond soul. Honestly both of them should be a level 6-7ish feature. Maybe in place of evasion they got those two features rolled together at 7. And too anyone that says proficiency in all saves at 7 is OP, may I remind you that Paladin exists and just adds their charisma mod to their owns saves in addition to everyone else’s. Diamond soul is the same bonus at this level assuming average stats. Granted a Paladin could be in your party and giving you those buffs but monk needs nice things.

Plus tongue of sun and moon lets your voice be out of sink with your lip movements like a cheesy martial arts movie. And that’s just cool

I've no problem with Tongue coming online earlier, but Diamond Soul is a very powerful ability:

-It's not just prof in all saves, it's also other ability to reroll when you know that you've initially failed.

-The Paladin's feature relies on them needing a good Cha, this has a lower ceiling than prof and is unlikely for a lot of Paladins to even be a 4, nevermind 5.

And... Monks have nice things. Evasion is a very good feature and they get it alongside Stillness of Mind and an additional Ki point.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Maybe Unpopular opinion but toungue of sun and moon should come online much earlier as should Diamond soul. Honestly both of them should be a level 6-7ish feature. Maybe in place of evasion they got those two features rolled together at 7. And too anyone that says proficiency in all saves at 7 is OP, may I remind you that Paladin exists and just adds their charisma mod to their owns saves in addition to everyone else’s. Diamond soul is the same bonus at this level assuming average stats. Granted a Paladin could be in your party and giving you those buffs but monk needs nice things.

Plus tongue of sun and moon lets your voice be out of sink with your lip movements like a cheesy martial arts movie. And that’s just cool

I tend to agree with Diamond soul. Since it scales with level the benefit at lower levels wouldn't be out of line.

[Jervis]

I've no problem with Tongue coming online earlier, but Diamond Soul is a very powerful ability:

-It's not just prof in all saves, it's also other ability to reroll when you know that you've initially failed.

-The Paladin's feature relies on them needing a good Cha, this has a lower ceiling than prof and is unlikely for a lot of Paladins to even be a 4, nevermind 5.

And... Monks have nice things. Evasion is a very good feature and they get it alongside Stillness of Mind and an additional Ki point.

Fair point about rerolls, that might need to come to a later level. I still say save proficiency fits better at a earlier level. It’s a feature most players never really see and I still say it’s less impactful than a paladins aura. Keep in mind paladins add to their saves on top of their proficiency so that makes them really really good at the things they’re good at and at least OK at all the other saves. And while proficiency out scales that at higher levels it assumes that paladins won’t buff charisma or find a charisma boosting items. Which at those level is unlikely. There are only so many good feats and magic items are at least decently common in most games.

[Dork_Forge]

Fair point about rerolls, that might need to come to a later level. I still say save proficiency fits better at a earlier level. It’s a feature most players never really see and I still say it’s less impactful than a paladins aura. Keep in mind paladins add to their saves on top of their proficiency so that makes them really really good at the things they’re good at and at least OK at all the other saves. And while proficiency out scales that at higher levels it assumes that paladins won’t buff charisma or find a charisma boosting items. Which at those level is unlikely. There are only so many good feats and magic items are at least decently common in most games.

The Paladin's ability is dependent on investing in a secondary stat, that is a cost the Monk doesn't have to deal with in Diamond Soul. And whilst DS might not add on to their already good saves, but it does let them reroll the failures.

Whilst some Paladins will probably bump their Cha at some point, they have their primary weapon stat, Con, and feats to consider on the standard 5 ASIs. Unless you're playing a more support heavy Paladin, or one that doubles down on Cha in some way like an Oathbreaker, Cha is down the totem pole.

And... what Cha boosting items?

[Psyren]

Brutal Critical is lackluster feature in general, but I don't get changing tongue of the sun and moon for an ASI. 13th level the Monk just got an ASI and is receiving a PB bump in addition to more Ki, Tongue is just a roleplay feature.

Replacing an RP feature with an ASI is one-sided power creep and most of the features people tend to complain about on a Monk are features that most classes don't even get an equivalent of.

I'm not talking about the level you get it, obviously if Barbarian and Monk got 1 or more bonus ASI I would want to reorder their other features so that theirs fall in line with the bonus ASIs from other classes that get one.

As for "power creep," I don't think any class should only get an RP feature at any given level. Rogues for instance get Thieves' Cant (RP feature) alongside other, better things. The same goes for Artificer's Tinkering and Right Tool For the Job (and those even have mechanical uses.)

[strangebloke]

The Paladin's ability is dependent on investing in a secondary stat, that is a cost the Monk doesn't have to deal with in Diamond Soul. And whilst DS might not add on to their already good saves, but it does let them reroll the failures.

Whilst some Paladins will probably bump their Cha at some point, they have their primary weapon stat, Con, and feats to consider on the standard 5 ASIs. Unless you're playing a more support heavy Paladin, or one that doubles down on Cha in some way like an Oathbreaker, Cha is down the totem pole.

And... what Cha boosting items?

Adding to this, its a bit much to ask every random monk feature to stand up to paladin aura, the strongest non-spellcasting feature in the game. Diamond Soul remains the best saves-protection ability in the game other than paladin aura, and is a very strong ability.

I think it'd be fine to move it up a bit. Level 9, for example wouldn't be too early. But this kind of exacerbates the other problem, that nobody gets any cool class features after level 11

[Psyren]

Adding to this, its a bit much to ask every random monk feature to stand up to paladin aura, the strongest non-spellcasting feature in the game. Diamond Soul remains the best saves-protection ability in the game other than paladin aura, and is a very strong ability.

I think it'd be fine to move it up a bit. Level 9, for example wouldn't be too early. But this kind of exacerbates the other problem, that nobody gets any cool class features after level 11

One thought I had was just to break Diamond Soul up. Instead of waiting for T3 for the whole thing, let them get two more saves in T2 and then the final two in T3.

Alternatively, keep DS as is (nothing until T3) but let Monk be thr only class to start the game with two strong saves (Dex and Wis.) This latter suggestion could encourage a lot of Monk 1/Something X builds though.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm not talking about the level you get it, obviously if Barbarian and Monk got 1 or more bonus ASI I would want to reorder their other features so that theirs fall in line with the bonus ASIs from other classes that get one.

As for "power creep," I don't think any class should only get an RP feature at any given level. Rogues for instance get Thieves' Cant (RP feature) alongside other, better things. The same goes for Artificer's Tinkering and Right Tool For the Job (and those even have mechanical uses.)

At the level they get Tongue, they also get a prof bonus increase and they get an additional Ki point, Monks never really just get a RP feature.

[Psyren]

At the level they get Tongue, they also get a prof bonus increase and they get an additional Ki point, Monks never really just get a RP feature.

Yeah no, thats some weak tea. I'd want to see actual features that are listed on the table at those levels.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah no, thats some weak tea. I'd want to see actual features that are listed on the table at those levels.

Weak tea? Tongue of the Sun and Moon is basically an always-on version of Tongues, a 3rd level spell. That's not comparable at all to Thieves' Cant or Magical Tinkering. Getting it alongside prof bonus increase (which for some subclasses is also more uses of their abilities) and another Ki point is far from weak, even if you would prefer a combat feature.

Again, Monks get the most listed features of any class and gradual improvement from many angles (Ki, speed, MA Die) throughout their progression.

[Psyren]

Ah yes, always-on Tongues on the class that shouldn't be doing any of the talking anyway, what a great feature.

Let's just agree to disagree like we usually end up doing.

[strangebloke]

Ah yes, always-on Tongues on the class that shouldn't be doing any of the talking anyway, what a great feature.

Let's just agree to disagree like we usually end up doing.

I feel like saying "you're not a charisma class you should never talk" is kind of a bad attitude to bring to a table.

[Psyren]

I feel like saying "you're not a charisma class you should never talk" is kind of a bad attitude to bring to a table.

I didn't say "should never talk", I said "shouldn't be doing the talking," i.e. the Party Face role specifically. The difference is subtle but material.

[Garresh]

Haven't looked at the changes yet. But if it's not a spell can it be used while wild shaped? Because if so I'm imagining a very angry teleporting grizzly bear.

[Yamin8r]

Shadar-Kai are really strong picks for elves. They’re not busted though. They don’t have resourceless flight so they’re automatically disqualified from absolute top tier. They don’t get level 1 feats like vuman and CL so playing a martial Shadar Kai is shooting yourself in the foot. Usual obligatory disclaimers apply, play what you like, you’re not a bad player or person for picking an option for flavor, etc.

They’re definitely in the fray with other nice but solidly mid-tier options like harengon, dhampir, etc. I’d honestly like most options to be as strong to be honest? Elven accuracy is cool but best of 3 advantage runs into diminishing returns hard compared to best of 2 and if you’re making attack rolls using it to maximize your attacks you’ll probably want to grab crossbow expert and sharpshooter first anyways, pushing EA way back anyhow.

[Jervis]

I didn't say "should never talk", I said "shouldn't be doing the talking," i.e. the Party Face role specifically. The difference is subtle but material.

I mean 5e lets you use alternate ability scores for skills if you can convince a DM that it’s reasonable. I’d let a Monk with proficiency use Wisdom for persuasion, for example. Yeah I know not every table would but i’m just saying 5es skills have some built in wiggle room there.

[Kane0]

Man, I remember when Half-Elf was one of the stronger races

[sambojin]

Meh. Monk just needs +Wis-mod Ki per short rest, and it's fixed. Wanna make it MAD? Fine, give it a payoff for doing so. Really nice on the bottom end, where they feel weak other than a few builds, and helps out immensely in tier2-3 as well, so they can excel. 2-3 extra Ki/Sr sorts the entire problem.
Hell, be a bawler DM and let them choose any stat other than Dex/Con, and they get that much +Ki per short rest. It really opens up some fun builds and concepts. It can be MAD, but it can be MAD how you want it to be. You can be smart or charismatic or strong, and be awesome at Monk'ing 🙂

So, back to Shadar-Kai....
Nah, not as broken as other stuff has been, just very strong. And this is from a druid player. Lol

[Skrum]

I can see what people are saying about the strong vs broken distinction, and yah, I agree.

TCL is kinda broken.

Shadar-Kai is just inexplicably good for "any" (i.e., generic) build.

[Pex]

Plus tongue of sun and moon lets your voice be out of sink with your lip movements like a cheesy martial arts movie. And that’s just cool

Aha! I've always wondered since 3E why monks get this. I never understood the connection. I know this is a joke, but if it is/was a hidden injoke all along about film dubbing I'm floored.