Heavy Armor Master vs Piercer

[Skrum]

I'm making a Dhampir Fighter 3 Warlock 5 gish build that uses eldritch smite, hex, and maneuvers to boost his combat potential with fireball and scorching ray in his back pocket.

But I'm having second thoughts on my feat. Originally I was going to get Skill Expert to boost his Athletics for the Hex/Grappling Strike/Eldritch Smite Synergy, but now I'm thinking his feat could be better spent. Even with +10 Athletics, Hex giving disadvantage is going to be the primary driver of his success as a grappler.

So, what's a better option? It needs to boost Str, and at first I thought Piercer. I'd switch to a morningstar as his weapon (from a longsword), which would be giving up 1 damage on the roll but making up for it with "damage advantage." Plus, this would give me a reroll for my bite damage, which should help make the bite more meaningful.

Alternatively, Heavy Armor Master. This character is very unlikely to level up any more, but still, I'm concerned that by level 8 HAM is already passed its sell-by date. But I do like the extra defense, as this is a very offensively focused character otherwise.

Really torn on this lol. I know the selection probably just comes down to personal preference, but still, a few opinions would be nice.

[x3n0n]

I'm making a Dhampir Fighter 3 Warlock 5 gish build that uses eldritch smite, hex, and maneuvers to boost his combat potential with fireball and scorching ray in his back pocket.

But I'm having second thoughts on my feat. Originally I was going to get Skill Expert to boost his Athletics for the Hex/Grappling Strike/Eldritch Smite Synergy, but now I'm thinking his feat could be better spent. Even with +10 Athletics, Hex giving disadvantage is going to be the primary driver of his success as a grappler.

So, what's a better option? It needs to boost Str, and at first I thought Piercer. I'd switch to a morningstar as his weapon (from a longsword), which would be giving up 1 damage on the roll but making up for it with "damage advantage." Plus, this would give me a reroll for my bite damage, which should help make the bite more meaningful.

Alternatively, Heavy Armor Master. This character is very unlikely to level up any more, but still, I'm concerned that by level 8 HAM is already passed its sell-by date. But I do like the extra defense, as this is a very offensively focused character otherwise.

Really torn on this lol. I know the selection probably just comes down to personal preference, but still, a few opinions would be nice.

If you want to be "the melee guy", HAM is going to continue saving you HP for the whole career. Random enemies with non-magical BPS Multiattack "never go out of style". That said, if you're only fighting bosses with no minions that survive the first AoE, then it's not as good.

Piercer's bite synergy is fun. That said, the best estimates I've seen have been roughly a +1 damage per re-roll, but only in one attack per turn. I doubt it will move the needle that much. However, if you dig the thought of crit-fishing your advantage bites when you're low on life, go for it.

[stoutstien]

I'd go HaM. It's not flashy but over it's career it prevent a ton of damage.

[Skrum]

Piercer's bite synergy is fun. That said, the best estimates I've seen have been roughly a +1 damage per re-roll, but only in one attack per turn. I doubt it will move the needle that much. However, if you dig the thought of crit-fishing your advantage bites when you're low on life, go for it.

Hmm this pushes me towards HAM. I was imagining it being a bit more impactful than that, though I suppose it makes sense that it won't be. It'll also slow down my turn quite a bit as I check each roll for damage and reroll one of them (I play exclusively on roll20, so it's not quite as streamlined as TT).

Still, I do like the piercer theme. Morningstars don't really see play, so I was liking that. And yah, turning the random crit that much more dangerous is also attractive.

[LordShade]

I think HAM is underrated. As a DM, I can tell you that my players take a lot of chip damage from different sources during a fight. If your table is like mine (3-4 battles per rest, with large numbers of combatants on both sides) I would expect HAM to add up to a ton of saved HP over the course of a campaign.

I think Piercer is the worst of the new BPS feats.

[SharkForce]

I've never really understood the idea that heavy armour master somehow doesn't scale to remain valuable. I mean, it is *most* powerful against very weak enemies that deal a low amount of damage per hit, sure, but it scales on number of attacks against you which in my experience does tend to increase with level. over the course of an adventuring day, I find it entirely believable that it will provide as much effective HP as the tough feat, at the cost of a half feat. heck, in some individual fights it may provide that much of a benefit, and those kinds of fights are the ones where weapon users traditionally perform poorly (that is, large numbers of weaker monsters).

that doesn't mean that I think it's an incredibly powerful feat that everyone should take, or even that you should necessarily take it for your build... but I *am* saying that I think concerns that this feat becomes useless as your level increases are quite overblown. it won't have quite the same amount of power as at level 1 when a CR 1/4 enemy is a serious threat to a PC all by itself, just that it retains value better than it is given credit for.

[Kane0]

HAM is absolutely as good or better than piercer, assuming you fight more than one or two critters in a day that each only attack once for massive damage.

[Skrum]

HAM is absolutely as good or better than piercer, assuming you fight more than one or two critters in a day that each only attack once for massive damage.

Well that's actually my hesitation lol; the games I play in do skew in that direction. Not anyone's fault either, it's just the style of game we play - it's episodic and individual games don't run more than 4 hours at the most. So fairly geared towards 1-2 deadly+ level encounters per game.

[Kane0]

If those encounters generally features creatures with multiple attacks then it's still fine, but as the number of attacks directed at you trends down the more you would probably want something else like Lucky, Resilient, Tough or Inspiring Leader.

[Contrast]

I've never really understood the idea that heavy armour master somehow doesn't scale to remain valuable.
<snip>

The issue is two-fold - its not just scaling HP and a non-scaling bonus, its that HAM doesn't work against magical weapons or non-physical damage.

At levels 1-4 there's a good chance anything up to 100% of the damage you face will come in the form of non-magical physical damage. However at levels 5+ the chance of coming across those things increases dramatically and often the things that are the most threatening will be the things that HAM is weakest against - it helps you win you win more against easy opponents and often barely helps in harder fights.

This is obviously going to be one of those things that varies pretty hugely by DM/campaign though. In some campaigns a lot of enemies will use magic weapons. In others, almost none will regardless of level.


I do agree its much better value than Tough but thats really more a commentary on Tough than anything else. Its still not a bad feat and I would def rate it over Piecer.

[stoutstien]

Slasher is a good option here as well. If you are going grapple shove often it's basically a way to lock down targets or continue to have soft control on those who you cant grab. It's crit rider is a lot better than piercers when it does happen.

[ciopo]

My 2 copper on HAM : it has some extra sinergy with warlock if you take armor of agathys, since it might very well mean keeping that temporary HP for one or more extra hit and doing that nice thorn damage :)

In my experience, nonmagical damage stays relevant and abudant well into the late teens, so it will still provide value.

You stop at 8 level anyway so it won't go stale

[Skrum]

Little follow-up: played the first game last night with this character. I went with Piercer b/c I liked the synergy with the bite in particular, and I was thinking it would help boost healing (making a little up compared to not having HAM).

I suppose it worked, but it was also really annoying lol. Especially playing on roll20, having to mouse over each damage roll, sort out where the piercing damage was, and then the reroll and add, ignoring the old roll... Pretty bothersome.

But, it did turn a d8 superiority dice from a 2 to a 7 on two different occasions, and one of them was on a bite. So it increased my damage by 10-12 for the night? And also healed me by 5 extra?

Conversely, if I had taken HAM, it would've reduced my damage taken overall by like....18, approximately? I did get a SR to heal, but still, rough estimate I would've ended the night at ~14 hp instead of 2.

So, it's kind of exactly what I expected. Piercer is more memorable by far, but HAM is almost certainly the smart pick

[Frogreaver]

Against most enemies HAM provides solid damage reduction 10-20% from attacks (early game it can be much stronger). So IMO it's far more effective than people realize. It's just not particularly fun. So I'd have recommended something else because the game is much more about fun than numerical effectiveness.

[Skrum]

Against most enemies HAM provides solid damage reduction 10-20% from attacks (early game it can be much stronger). So IMO it's far more effective than people realize. It's just not particularly fun. So I'd have recommended something else because the game is much more about fun than numerical effectiveness.

I'm all ears. It needs to boost STR; 18 in STR is, well, I'm not going to say non-negotiable, but I have a very strong preference for it

[Frogreaver]

I'm all ears. It needs to boost STR; 18 in STR is, well, I'm not going to say non-negotiable, but I have a very strong preference for it

Sure, it will be helpful to get your:

Stats
Warlock Invocations
Fighter Subclass


EDIT: Also, warlock subclass

[Sigreid]

Agreeing with those saying HAM is good. It's amazing. The only time it stops being amazing is if your DM decides that all of your opponents are using magic weapon attacks. Very, very few monsters have their attack listed as a magical weapon attack.

[Skrum]

Sure, it will be helpful to get your:

Stats
Warlock Invocations
Fighter Subclass


EDIT: Also, warlock subclass

Dhampir BM Fighter 3 Genie (Efreet) Warlock 5 (Pact of the Blade)
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 16
Invocations: Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Mind, Thirsting Blade
Maneuvers: menacing strike, grappling strike, precision attack

[Frogreaver]

Dhampir BM Fighter 3 Genie (Efreet) Warlock 5 (Pact of the Blade)
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 16
Invocations: Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Mind, Thirsting Blade
Maneuvers: menacing strike, grappling strike, precision attack

My top recomendations:

Take Warcaster, change Eldritch Mind to Fiendish Vigor. Keep false life up for +8 temp hp for each encounter. Ensure you pick up booming blade so you can get large OA's (even while grappling another creature). Also pick up counterspell as warcaster allows you to grapple and still counterspell.

For a good portion of the game I imagine your combat could ideally look something like this: Start the day by casting hex and false life then short rest to recover the slot (assumes your dm allows it to last the duration despite the short rest). Turn 1: Move hex to your enemy of choice. Move to that enemy such that you are adjacent to it and another. Attack it with an eldritch smite on hit. Your 2nd attack would be to grapple it while it's prone. Your reaction is for booming blade if the ungrappled enemy tries to move away from you or if there's a caster you can use counterspell. My personal opinion is that this option is better than any of the +1 str feats.

Take Skill Expert. Pick an out of combat skill you like to grant expertise to (you're entirely too combat focused IMO). This does add your +1 str.

Take Ritual Caster. This adds a ton of utility, further fills out your gish concept and is an option not primarily combat focused, but that can help in combat (owl familiar).

[Skrum]

My top recomendations:
Take Warcaster, change Eldritch Mind to Fiendish Vigor. Keep false life up for +8 temp hp for each encounter. Ensure you pick up booming blade so you can get large OA's (even while grappling another creature). Also pick up counterspell as warcaster allows you to grapple and still counterspell.

For a good portion of the game I imagine your combat could ideally look something like this: Start the day by casting hex and false life then short rest to recover the slot (assumes your dm allows it to last the duration despite the short rest). Turn 1: Move hex to your enemy of choice. Move to that enemy such that you are adjacent to it and another. Attack it with an eldritch smite on hit. Your 2nd attack would be to grapple it while it's prone. Your reaction is for booming blade if the ungrappled enemy tries to move away from you or if there's a caster you can use counterspell. My personal opinion is that this option is better than any of the +1 str feats.


I was thinking about Warcaster...ugh, I hate not having an 18 though lol. I guess I could just get a +1 weapon to make up for it.



Take Skill Expert. Pick an out of combat skill you like to grant expertise to (you're entirely too combat focused IMO). This does add your +1 str.


Yeah this was my original pick, though I had it boosting his athletics. I do have the three Cha skills for out of combat, FWIW. His character is pretty silver-tongued.



Take Ritual Caster. This adds a ton of utility, further fills out your gish concept and is an option not primarily combat focused, but that can help in combat (owl familiar).


Don't really care for familiars tbh, unless I'm making a familiar-focused build. In any case, it doesn't really fit his style.

So other question: I'm thinking of changing his build to Paladin 2 Warlock 5 (yes I'm trying to get him down to 7). Would that change your feat recommendation? I might just do fighter 2 also; I do like action surge.

The Fullmetal Mod: Normality restored.

[x3n0n]

Take Ritual Caster. This adds a ton of utility, further fills out your gish concept and is an option not primarily combat focused, but that can help in combat (owl familiar).

Unfortunately, Ritual Caster has a prereq of 13 Wis or Int.

[Skrum]

For some reason the formatting of my last comment is totally off the wall....like some of the post is at the top of the page on the left. Really weird.

[Frogreaver]

For some reason the formatting of my last comment is totally off the wall....like some of the post is at the top of the page on the left. Really weird.

To answer some of your questions. I'd stay fighter over paladin. Paladin is good when you want the divine smite. You have eldritch smite (which is better for your concept IMO). Fighter also lets you do the Fighter 1 -> Warlock 5 -> Fighter 2 build. Paladin is much less good with that kind of start.

My personal preference is the warcaster route just because it opens up alot of strong reactions and trading eldritch mind for fiendish vigor gives a solid toughness boost (at least enough to compensate for no piercer damage boost for bite hp). A well place counterspell is one of the most encounter changing things out there. I guess you can technically end your grapple at any time, but ending a grapple on a prone creature to counterpspell, while useful, will feel like you are giving up alot.

If you were deadset on going for +1 str feat I think I'd use Skill Expert for deception or persuasion and lean even more into the silver tongued concept. Don't get me wrong, expertise athletics is good, but I think you'll find more benefit and fun with the cha skill boosts than athletics.

[Peelee]

For some reason the formatting of my last comment is totally off the wall....like some of the post is at the top of the page on the left. Really weird.

You have a in a quote block and an end tag in a different quote block. I suspect that's causing the formatting issue.

ETA: hey, looks like I was right! Now stop breaking the forums!

[ImproperJustice]

This is kinda non-sequiter but we had a heavy armor / great weapon Samurai who had HAM and his temp HP buff mixed with HAM gave him some nice staying power while allowing him to swing his monster weapon w/ advantage.
He was the first of our group to ever take it, and we were all surprised just how much it extended his HP.
Even at level 11 where the campaign ended.