deleted

[wefoij123]

Don't need this answered anymore so deleted.

[Crake]

The bonus on attack rolls and the bonus on fortitude saves is meant to be the compensation for the bab and base save bonus you would normally get from hit dice. This was done, I presume, to make things simpler, rather than having to actually give BAB, and all the potential shenannigans that come with it like bonus attacks. Your player is basically asking to double dip on bonuses.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The bonus on attack rolls and the bonus on fortitude saves is meant to be the compensation for the bab and base save bonus you would normally get from hit dice. This was done, I presume, to make things simpler, rather than having to actually give BAB, and all the potential shenannigans that come with it like bonus attacks. Your player is basically asking to double dip on bonuses.And yet, inspire greatness does not say that the bonuses are in lieu of what hit dice normally grant, and the BAB, save bonuses, etc granted by the HD rules are untyped. Thus, by RAW, the bonuses are separate, since HD always grant BAB and save boosts, skills, feats, etc unless otherwise stated (or the creature is mindless, in which case feats and skills don't apply). So you gain the stated competence bonuses above and beyond what the HD give you, since those rules still apply. Not granting those bonuses is a houserule, (un)fortunately.

[Biggus]

Thus, by RAW, the bonuses are separate, since HD always grant BAB and save boosts, skills, feats, etc unless otherwise stated (or the creature is mindless, in which case feats and skills don't apply). So you gain the stated competence bonuses above and beyond what the HD give you, since those rules still apply. Not granting those bonuses is a houserule, (un)fortunately.

1) Is it an explicitly stated rule that HD always grant BAB, save boosts etc? If so, where does it say that?

2) How do you determine whether you get good or bad BAB, saves etc from these HD? Are they racial HD or class level HD? Does the player get to choose? If the extra HD are intended to give those bonuses, why does Inspire Greatness not tell us any of this?

3) The text of IG says "the bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells such as sleep". Why did they need to point this out if they count as regular HD for all purposes? Doesn't the fact they did specify that they count as regular HD for this one specific purpose imply that they don't count as regular HD for other purposes?

[Crake]

1) Is it an explicitly stated rule that HD always grant BAB, save boosts etc? If so, where does it say that?

It is actually not, and it even has precedence proving otherwise, the survivor prestige class.


2) How do you determine whether you get good or bad BAB, saves etc from these HD? Are they racial HD or class level HD? Does the player get to choose? If the extra HD are intended to give those bonuses, why does Inspire Greatness not tell us any of this?

3) The text of IG says "the bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells such as sleep". Why did they need to point this out if they count as regular HD for all purposes? Doesn't the fact they did specify that they count as regular HD for this one specific purpose imply that they don't count as regular HD for other purposes?

Yeah, pretty much all this. You get what Inspire Greatness tells you you get, and nothing more. Anything further is just attempting to double dip.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Base Attack Bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackBonus): "A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof)."

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#monstersAndClassLevels): "A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases."

Increasing Hit Dice (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice): "As long as a creature has an Intelligence of at least 1, it gains a minimum of 1 skill point per Hit Die."

They're in an odd spot, because I'm pretty sure nothing in the regular character creation rules actually tells you that you can actually gain BAB or skill points when leveling up, or spend them at any point, even for class levels. I guess it just assumes it's a rule you're going to intuit, but RAW, I'm not sure it's actually possible to gain skill points or BAB outside of the rules quoted above, although I'd like to be proven wrong on that. So you have to use the monster rules, else you never actually gain or spend BAB, skill points, etc.

[Crake]

I'm looking at the survivor prestige class. It's from savage species. I think you got the name of the prc wrong because this class doesn't have anything to do with bonus hit dice.

My player is looking for far more than a double dip. His eyes are mainly set on the bonus feat.

The class itself gives you hit dice, just like every other class, but if you look at the BAB column of the class, every level is +0. None of the hit dice associated with that class grant any BAB. If the bonus HD from inspire greatness were intended to give you extra BAB, you can rest assured that it would have been noted.

There IS a way you can leverage it however. If you've been affected by Inspire Greatness, and then cast a spell like divine power, tenser's transformation, or if you have a skillful weapon, the extra HD (and thus, temporarily increased character level) will also cause a subsequent rise in BAB to match.

[Crichton]

The class itself gives you hit dice, just like every other class, but if you look at the BAB column of the class, every level is +0. None of the hit dice associated with that class grant any BAB. If the bonus HD from inspire greatness were intended to give you extra BAB, you can rest assured that it would have been noted.


I'm not one to try to enable a dubiously legal shenanigan, but I'm not sure your logic here is sound. ALL hit dice increase BAB according to whatever progression is defined for their type. For monsters, it's according to the entry here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice).

For classes, including for the Survivor PrC, it's according to their progression table in the class entry. So in this case, ONLY Survivor's increases are allowed to result in +0 BAB per level/HD. Any other HD, from any other source, result in a BAB increase according to their creature type or their class entry's table. That doesn't help with figuring out the mechanics of Inspire Greatness, but your Survivor PrC is hardly a valid counterexample to refute or disprove the entire premise.

[Crake]

I'm not one to try to enable a dubiously legal shenanigan, but I'm not sure your logic here is sound. ALL hit dice increase BAB according to whatever progression is defined for their type. For monsters, it's according to the entry here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice).

For classes, including for the Survivor PrC, it's according to their progression table in the class entry. So in this case, ONLY Survivor's increases are allowed to result in +0 BAB per level/HD. Any other HD, from any other source, result in a BAB increase according to their creature type or their class entry's table. That doesn't help with figuring out the mechanics of Inspire Greatness, but your Survivor PrC is hardly a valid counterexample to refute or disprove the entire premise.

Right, but my point was that there ARE cases where BAB progression for HD is simply 0. It's not a REQURIEMENT for HD to increase bab, and since this temporary HD has no defined BAB progression, since it's neither racial, nor class HD, we must assume it's BAB progression is nonexistent.

[Crake]

Ok so you might have a point here. Unidentified HD increase results in no BAB, base save, or skill points. I could see that. Need to do a little more research to figure out if it's true.

But how about feats? There is no case of increase in hd ever not giving feats.

I think you're overcomplicating it honestly. It would be weird for the buff to only give feats every 2/3 levels. A lot of the buffs in 3.5 were made to be more consistent. The buff should give you the same benefit regardless of other circumstances. It was the same reason odd bonuses were removed for ability scores, because an odd bonus only gives you benefit if you have an odd ability score, but an even bonus will always give you a bonus regardless.

[Crazysaneman]

For classes, including for the Survivor PrC, it's according to their progression table in the class entry. So in this case, ONLY Survivor's increases are allowed to result in +0 BAB per level/HD. Any other HD, from any other source, result in a BAB increase according to their creature type or their class entry's table.

War Hulk is another PrC that has a +0 BAB/hit die. Doesn't change anything, but there is precedent elsewhere.

Also, my question would be if the advancement in hit die raising BAB and the like would only effect monsters, where do the Draconomicon PrC's for dragon fall?
Would a Gold Dragon with levels in The Sacred Warder of Baphomet or a Black Dragon with levels in The Unholy Ravager of Tiamat be effected differently then a stock Gold Dragon or Black Dragon respectively? What about the same stock dragon with a template assigned, like dracolich or spellwarped creature?

Also worth mentioning, player races DO have a racial hit die. They have standard template entries in the monster manuals. Their Classes/ PrC's HD simply replaces it. Check the Humanoid (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) type entry.

An interesting conundrum to be sure.

[Biggus]

1) In the animal companion quote I provided
"Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses."

I was replying to MaxiDuRaritry. He asserted that HD always grants BAB etc, and I was asking what he was basing that assertion on.


2) My guess is racial hit die seeing how every instance of hit dice increase I could find is for rhd only. Emphasis on guess.

If they're racial HD, why are they d10s, instead of whatever type of HD that race has? Likewise if they're class HD?



3) This is flawed logic. WotC partially repeats general rules everywhere and anywhere. On the top of my head is create magic tattoo and animate weapon.


I've looked at those spells and I'm not seeing what you mean, can you explain further?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ok I found the answer in the FAQ. Indirect answer.That might have been useful if it wasn't the FAQ, which is well-known for being 100% wrong a significant chunk of the time. That's not at all rules-based; they're houseruling again. They do that a lot.