The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Debatra]

Thread Twelve. We're going to put another dent into Thurbane's Monster Manual VI (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?567712) compilation of online monster articles. There's a lot though, so we probably won't finish it this thread.

If you're new here, you'll want to at least read through the "Clarification" section of the archive thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825) to get a feel for what we're doing.

On asterisk ratings:

The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.

The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove

Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.

What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.

Please place your votes in bold. This isn't required, but it makes things easier on me when I go for the final counts.

And so the new thread starts with... pie.

---


Devil, Pie Fiend (https://web.archive.org/web/20210907090632/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401a)
https://i.imgur.com/Q84elde.png

Size & Type: Large Outsider (Baatezu, Lawful, Evil)
Face/Reach: 5'/10'
HD: 13, 21 (Huge)
Speed: 30', Fly 50' (Average)
Ability Scores: Str +14, Dex +2, Con +10, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +8 - Net +54, no penalties
Natural Armor: 18
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Wings (1d4) (Also worth mentioning that, while not a natural weapon, they often use rolling pins as Clubs.)
Skill List: Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Baking), Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Infernal, Celestial, Draconic), Telepathy (range unspecified)
CR: 14
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

Many sages remain skeptical that the dreaded pie fiend exists anywhere except in the fevered imaginations of people who fear the unknown. Accounts of these creatures' appearance and habits vary widely, probably because of their unmatched ability to disguise themselves as innocuous commoners (but perhaps because the skeptical sages are right to be skeptical).

Most sources agree that a pie fiend in its natural form resembles a hulking ape with a barrel chest, long arms, and vast bat-like wings. Its dark, shaggy fur is peppered with flecks of light-colored dust (bits of flour, some say). It wears no clothing except a tattered apron with many overloaded pockets, well spattered with variously colored stains. Waves of shimmering heat, along with the curiously pleasant scent of sweet spices and fresh pastry, often surround the creature.

These strange creatures have an affinity for baked goods of all sorts. They spend much of their time creating them and temping mortals with them. (A pie fiend's pies are invariably well made, but usually perilous to consume.) They also have a sweet tooth and can seldom resist swiping another baker's wares. A pie left cooling on a windowsill often tempts a pie fiend to pilfer it, and the pie fiend often leaves one of its own creations in place of the stolen confection.

Immunity to fire and poison, DR 5/-, and SR 26 make for a great chassis on top of those ability scores (and on a speech-capable humanoid shape to boot!).

It has a few good at-will SLAs, each at CL17 and with Charisma-based saves where applicable: Alter Self, Charm Person, Desecrate, Detect Good, Detect Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility, Magic Circle Against Good, Mage Hand, Major Image, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion, Greater Teleport (self plus 50lbs of objects), Unholy Aura, and Unhallow.

In addition to actual SLAs, the Pie Fiend has a few other at-will abilities that mostly mimic spells, such as Animate Pie (Animate Objects, but can animate up to thirteen Tiny or smaller objects at a time), and Heatwall (Wall of Fire, but colorless and transparent, and cold effects don't put it out). These are also CL17.

Once each day, the Pie Fiend can generate a compulsion that makes up to thirteen creatures within a 60' radius feel completely content for ten minutes. Creatures that fail the Charisma-based will save can take no actions as though dazed for the duration. Even those who save take a -2 penalty to Str and Dex for that time, and can't run or charge. Any attack against or damage dealt to an affected creature breaks the "not quite daze" effect prematurely, as if they had made their save. Despite being a Su ability, it can be dispelled as if it were a spell cast at CL17.

Its Make Into Pie ability functions three times per day. This power allows it to create a large thin sheet of pie crust that it can hurl up to 100' like a net. Each sheet can entangle a creature of up to Huge size. Entangled creatures can escape by attempting either a DC28 Escape Artist check or a DC34 Str check as a standard action. The dough has a hardness of 2 and 14 HP. It's immune to energy attacks, and actually traps heat inside of it. Any fire effects the creature inside is subjected to are maximized, "baking" the victim.

At will, the Fiend can conjure its namesake confection Easy as Pie. This ability is a free action, and the resulting food is delicious, nutritious, nonmagical (unless it makes one of its "special" pies) and safe to eat. They can be made from a variety of ingredients, such as fruits, meats, nuts, vegetables, or whatever else you might put in a pie or tart. Food won't be an issue with a Pie Fiend in your party. The pies will rot and decay just like any other food, but they're conjured fresh and ready to eat. The Pie Fiend can also use them as either a melee or ranged weapon (120' range) to deal 1d3+StrMod nonlethal damage.

In addition to ordinary pies, the Fiend has four types of special pies it can create. Each of these can be made up to seven times per day, with the exception of a Sinfully-Delicious Pie, which can be done once per day. Each of these (as well as making normal pies) is a Su ability.

A Sticky Pie does as the name implies, functioning as a tanglefoot bag. This pie is nonmagical, but dissolves in 2d6+13 rounds. (I'm unsure if it's supposed to be equal to HD or if it's flat and a coincidence.) A quart of alcohol or weak acid (such as vinegar) dissolves the pie immediately, freeing the creature trapped within.

The Pie Fiend can also make extremely hot or extremely cold pies. In addition to the nonlethal damage of a normal pie, these deal an additional 1d4+5 fire or cold damage on a successful hit. The bits of pie remain stuck to the target for 1d4 rounds, dealing its fire/cold damage each round or until a full-round action is taken to remove it. If not used immediately, the pie remains hot/cold for 2d4 rounds, after which it cools/warms and becomes a normal pie. Note that Hot and Cold Pies are separate abilities that can each be used seven times per day.

Finally, the Sinfully-Delicious Pie is a true masterpiece that sends living creatures into fits of ecstasy. This has a different effect based on the alignment of the ones who have so much as a taste of it. Good creatures feel the pie is so good that it must be a sin, causing them to feel extreme guilt that leads to a Confusion effect, while Evil creatures become giddy and start to dance and jump about as per Otto's Irresistible Dance. Neutral characters have a 50% chance of either effect. Both effects are CL17. These are mind-affecting compulsions, and can be avoided with a Charisma-based Will save. If not eaten immediately, the Sinfully-Delicious Pie remains potent for 1d4 hours before becoming just another ordinary pie.

[H_H_F_F]

This is absurd. So weird to see a creature casually get greater dispel magic at will, but treated as if doing 1d4+5 fire damage is anything.

Anyway, this is very good, but I'm not sure if it's positive LA good. Hard to judge creatures with so much HD when they don't very obviously suck.

[Troacctid]

Warlock is the closest comparison here, as many of the pie fiend's abilities also appear on the warlock invocation list. And this monster compares very favorably against warlock.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Aaaah, you love yourself some good April Fool's monsters (and some pies). I agree with Troacctid that this is most probably good enough for a LA. So many at-wills on an Outsider chassis with SR 13+HD and +18 NA is extremely good.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not sure what's funnier; the entire concept, or that this thing is entirely capable of whupping the butts of overconfident or underprepared PCs.

[Dimers]

Outsider skill points, the skill list and a couple SLAs make this fine as a party face. Greater dispel at will is nice, though I assume it's locked at CL 17 regardless of advancement. Major image can have some utility if you're inventive. Unholy aura and greater invis are nice party buffs, and the contentment effect could deflate one combat a day. I suppose anything with full BAB and +14 Strength can swing a sword. So there are some things the pie fiend can do even though its "signature" abilities all seem pretty useless at level 13. The ability scores, natural armor, fly speed, telepathy and immunities are all personally great to have, though the party wouldn't care as much. Greater teleport would be amazing if it could transport the party, but it's pretty questionable whether a party and its equipment could fit into a Type III bag of holding (which would leave the pie fiend only 15 pounds for its personal equipment outside the bag).

I think this critter would make some contribution in a high-level party, but frankly it lacks offense or even much BFC. It's mostly defensive, which doesn't win battles. Furthermore, I don't see a good base class to progress it as it levels up (maybe there's a great PrC out there?). I'm gonna put it on the same level as a sorcerer just getting their 7ths, which would be more fun and probably more effective but definitely harder to keep alive. LA +1 for me.

[remetagross]

This monster is hilarious and I'd love to play one. That said, I'm not really sure where it can go as far as progression is concerned. A possibility would be Rogue, playing out the social skills and disguising SLA's as much as possible. The at-will Greater Invisibility is a cherry on top (of the pie! Got it?) to trigger sneak attacks reliably...including ranged sneak attacks by throwing pies!

But it's too powerful to not have an LA. These at-will Greater Dispel Magic but also Greater Teleport will at once dwarf the party casters, and its infiltration ability far outstrips what a rogue of equal level can do. I'd say it needs an LA of +2: this way, rogues can afford at that moment a Ring of Invisibility, which is a 15th-level item.

[liquidformat]

Pie fiend has a great entry in the Villains competition

But it's too powerful to not have an LA. These at-will Greater Dispel Magic but also Greater Teleport will at once dwarf the party casters, and its infiltration ability far outstrips what a rogue of equal level can do. I'd say it needs an LA of +2: this way, rogues can afford at that moment a Ring of Invisibility, which is a 15th-level item.

While Greater Teleport is nothing to sneeze at the self +50lb really does nerf it quite a bit, without stuffing your team into a portable hole or such its not going to be that helpful. Sure it could save your party caster from having to use their spells for day to day party transport but they will still want to have it prepared as a last resort escape button. As far as Greater Dispel Magic goes to be honest I have never seen it nor dispel magic actually used in a game by a player in something like 20 years of play so yeah I see its usefulness in theory but sorry I don't value it very highly. Without sneak attack the value of being invisible is significantly nerfed, also by level 13 much less 15 a lot of encounters will have enemies with true seeing, in my experience maxed hide/move silently + dark stalker +HiPS is much more powerful at these levels than invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Even if you were to use the rest of your 5 to 7 levels for SA classes at most you would be looking at something like 5d6 SA which really isn't much by level 20.

Charm person, hold person, and for our more imaginative people Major Image are probably the real flour and butter for the Pie monkey; I suppose since you have it at will spamming greater dispel will be ok until you hit level 17 or 18. Besides That I would probably go more beatstick with the build maybe grab three levels of swashbuckler to get int to damage or something similar and look at trying to get wis or cha to damage too, dipping bard with snowflake war dance and unarmed swordsage comes to mind.

In the end by levels 13+ this really isn't that impressive and while I think it has enough going for it to be positive LA I am really not seeing anything here that would make me want to play this nor anything that is very powerful. Its a bit too all over the place and has no clear path forward, this seems like a pretty straightforward +0 LA.

[loky1109]

I give him +1.

[Tzardok]

I agree. +1 from me.

[H_H_F_F]

I'll vote for LA +0, even if it does verge on a +1. I think it's very good at level 13, but the lack of a progression path that really builds on what it can do becomes an issue quite fast. I can see +1, sure, but I think +0 could still work, and I'd rather vote lower when I can see either case.

[ciopo]

Mmmh, how does this compare to a ice devil? That one has 14 RHD and got LA +2.

In hindsight of that, giving this one LA +0 feels a bit on the low side, but perhabs that's more a symptom of the assignment thread evolution?

Pie for thoughts

[liquidformat]

Ice Devil
Size & Type: Large Outsider (Lawful, Evil)
Face/Reach: 5'/10'
HD: 14, 29 (Huge)
Speed: 40'
Ability Scores: Str +12, Dex +10, Con +12, Int +12, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +68, no penalties
Natural Armor: 18
Natural Weapons: Two Primary claws (1d10), Bite (2d6), Tail (3d6)
Skill List: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any three), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Infernal, Celestial, Draconic), Telepathy (range unspecified)
CR: 13
WotC LA: -

DR 10/good, Immunity Fire and Poison, Res 10 acid and cold, Regeneration 5, Spell Res 25.
SLAs: At will Cone of Cold, Fly, Ice Storm, Greater Teleport, Persistent Image, Unholy Aura, Wall of Ice; CL 13 Cha based DCs; Summon Devil
Slow: anything hit with spear or tail must make a DC 23 Fort Save or be slowed for 1d6 rounds.
Fear Aura: 10' radius DC 22 Will Save for be effected by cl 13 fear aura, 24 immunity for anything succeeding the save.

So between its natural speed and at will fly sla Ice devil has better movement; Ice devil is a veritable meat blender strongly supported by regen 5 and good AC, DR and SR; the SLAs are a bit of a mixed bag as a primary melee Ice devil's spells are more useful Ice wall and persistent image for some BFC and cone of cold for some blasting. However, Pie fiend's selection tends to be a bit better as debuffer (dispell) and SoL (charm and hold person) with lesser BFC between Major Image and Heatwall. Greater Teleport is actually more powerful for the Ice Devil than the Pie Fiend, since it adds a more BFC to the Ice Devil since it is a larger threat on the battlefield and adds extra mobility.
The really big difference I see is Ice Devil is a real melee threat with some useful SLAs to back it up and some pretty obvious paths that add a lot of power to it, just simply getting a few levels of totemist, Warblade, swordsage, or any number of PRCs does a lot to keep Ice Devil very powerful and relevant.
On the other hand going against nonhumanoids and things immune to mind affecting effects does a lot to nerf the Pie fiend, and at level 13+ most of the Pie Fiends pie related abilities are already useless. Furthermore, there aren't any clear and useful paths for the Pie Fiend.
I personally Think the Ice Devil is probably a high +1 but its still fine at +2. The Pie Fiend seems competitive at level 13-14 but at 15+ it really starts falling off in usefulness. If we start the Pie Fiend at +2 LA to be frank it is no longer competitive with the rest of a decently optimized level 15 party and only competitive with a pretty low op group.

[Remuko]

I'm gonna throw my hate in with the +0 LA crowd. Though I don't think +1 is unreasonable. Any higher than +1 seems far too high to me.

Official vote from me is bolded. This is just for clarification.

[Troacctid]

Let's compare this to a level 18 warlock.

A level 18 warlock has fourteen invocations (two dark, three each of least, lesser, and greater, plus eldritch blast 8d6 and detect magic) and +13 BAB. With a base 14 Con and Int, he has 101 HP and 84 skill points. His class gives him DR 4, two energy resistances at 5 each, limited fast healing, and a total of +4 to his ability scores.

Here is the standard recommended set of invocations from my Warlockopedia.

Least: eldritch glaive, darkness, sickening blast, (detect magic, eldritch blast)
Lesser: fell flight, voracious dispelling, eldritch chain
Greater: chilling tentacles, vitriolic blast, enervating darkness
Dark: dark foresight, path of shadow

Okay, let's compare this to the pie fiend. She has +13 BAB, and with a base of 14 Con and Int, she has 153 HP and 345 skill points. She has DR 5 and is immune to fire and poison. She also has a total of +54 to her ability scores. Here's a breakdown of her invocations, based on the grade I think they would be assigned, or marked with * if the ability actually exists as a warlock invocation already.

Least: see in darkness*, easy as pie, desecrate, detect good, detect magic*, hypnotic pattern, mage hand
Lesser: Large size, fly speed 50 ft*, telepathy, alter self, charm person*, hold person, magic circle against good, major image, pyrotechnics, waves of contentment
Greater: natural armor +18, SR 26, animate pie, heatwall*, make into pie, greater dispel magic*, suggestion*, unhallow
Dark: greater invisibility*, greater teleport, unholy aura

So, comparing the two. The pie fiend has much stronger invocations at the lesser and greater grades, and pretty damn good ones at dark. I would estimate that in invocations alone, she's easily equivalent to a warlock of at least 16th level, and honestly stacks up pretty well against even a 20th level warlock. Yeah, her dark invocations aren't quite as good, but all those extra greater invocations more than make up for it. She also has incredible ability score bonuses, and even with the default all 10s array, her stats dwarf those of any normal PC. Meanwhile, the warlock has more consistent damage thanks to his 8d6 vitriolic blast, which can be expected to consistently produce about 91 DPR with eldritch glaive against a single target, or about 98 DPR with eldritch chain spread across four targets. The pie fiend can probably full attack with a greatsword and wings for about 6d6+2d4+50ish? damage if everything hits, which isn't bad, but I'd bet it's not as consistent at this level as the laser beam touch attacks, even with the extra accuracy from the higher Strength.

All in all, if you took away that big pile of raw stats, I think a 13 HD pie fiend is about equivalent to a level 16 warlock. Once you add on the extra +50 to ability scores, she's honestly probably on par with a level 20 warlock. Like, being real here, do y'all realize that even if you slapped a whopping +7 LA on the pie fiend, she still has better HP, saves, and skill points than a level 20 warlock, despite having 7 fewer HD? Outsider hit dice are whack.

I don't know how some of you have come up with +0 or +1 LA. I'd put it at +4 LA and I think that's being very generous. Even with +5, it would still be playable, IMO. "But where is it supposed to progress from here?" Who cares? It's already on par with a 20th level character. It is the endgame.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Now, the warlock has the eldritch blast that can be easily quickened, or improved with one or two invocations. They can also PrC or multiclass, and their abilities have much more synergy (or possible synergy) than the abilities of a Pie Fiend.

That said, there are a lot of abilities. More than 10+HD SR, more than HD in natural armor, the ability to always be surrounded by Unholy Aura, to Greater Dispel with a level much higher than his own, obviously Greater Teleport, which is hard to get except for full casters, and being able to Suggestion at-will is great in fights that last more than a few rounds and in a lot of social situations.

What the Pie Fiend doesn't have in offense (it doesn't have a lot to face non-humanoid foes beyond just hitting them with a stick), it more than makes up for with defense (you really can't overstate how hard SR 28, 18 natural armor before items is hard to pass around CR15) and utility. I feel like that's a solid LA+2. Maybe not three, but definitely not +0 in my opinion.

[Debatra]

Where are people getting "10/13+HD" for the spell resistance? SR is just listed as 26, and nowhere does it say it scales.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Where are people getting "10/13+HD" for the spell resistance? SR is just listed as 26, and nowhere does it say it scales.

Because, especially for high-powered monsters like this one, most players will probably play it at its ECL or very slightly higher. There really aren't that many campaigns (or one-shots, for that matter) that go up to 20 and stay at 20 for a significant amount of time before the end of the campaign. That's why, in general, I want the monster to be playable at its ECL, or at its ECL+1, even if it becomes abit weaker after a few levels (since, for the majority of monsters, the bonuses they give don't scale up as well as class levels), rather than it being overpowered when it is introduced but being balanced for ECL 20.

In that regard, what's important is comparing its initial SR with the caster level of the spellcasters it is likely to encounter at its minimum ECL, which is basically SR-HD with a small additive constant. In the Pie Fiend's case, if you give it LA+1, it has SR 26 in an ECL 14 environment. That's only 40% for enemy casters to affect it, or more likely even less, since boss monsters often have a caster level below their CR. That is hard to affect and should definitely weigh in the balance.

[danielxcutter]

There's that vest in the PHB2 that raises innate SR though, that'd be great.

[remetagross]

As far as Greater Dispel Magic goes to be honest I have never seen it nor dispel magic actually used in a game by a player in something like 20 years of play so yeah I see its usefulness in theory but sorry I don't value it very highly.

I have played a Wilder in a campaign spamming Dispel Psionics 3 MLs above the party's ECL thanks to Wild Surge. It is an extremely consistent and useful ability to have. I do value it very highly from experience.

[ciopo]

I vote LA +2

[Beni-Kujaku]

I have played a Wilder in a campaign spamming Dispel Psionics 3 MLs above the party's ECL thanks to Wild Surge. It is an extremely consistent and useful ability to have. I do value it very highly from experience.

And the pit fiend can quite easily max out its Greater Dispel with one ioun stone and two magic tattoos. Honestly, dispel spam can disable quite a lot of encounters all on its own. Especially if you take Arcane Mastery, you can basically automatically dispel or counter one spell per round.

Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?

[danielxcutter]

Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.

[Tzardok]

Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?

I don't see why not.

[AsuraKyoko]

I'm inclined to agree with Troacctid, this thing is really strong, though I'm a little more inclined to be generous, and give this thing +3 LA.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.

Oh, yeah, nothing to do with each other. I don't know what came over me.


I don't see why not.

Then I am going to quote my favorite Magic:the Gathering flavor text:

"Masters of the arcane savor a delicious irony. Their study of deep and complex arcana leads to such a simple end: the ability to say merely yes or no."

[liquidformat]

Greater: natural armor +18, SR 26, animate pie, heatwall*, make into pie, greater dispel magic*, suggestion*, unhallow

How are Animate Pie and Make into Pie Greater invocations?
Animate pie allows you to animate up to 13 tiny objects for 17 rounds each only has 1/2d10 at this level that ability is fluff and is at most a Least invocation though I don't think it is even worth taking/using as a least invocation.

Make into pie while it isn't horrible I don't think it quite compares with Greater invocations; also it is only useable 3/day just that fact alone it should drop it down to lesser if not least.

Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?

[Tzardok]

Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?

Isn't that what it officially is, ruleswise speaking?

[Metastachydium]

Make into pie while it isn't horrible I don't think it quite compares with Greater invocations; also it is only useable 3/day just that fact alone it should drop it down to lesser if not least.

I'd argue that it disqualifies it completely. Invocations are by definition at-will, regardless of their power level. (Mutatis mutandis, the same applies to Waves of Contentment as well. No, a 1/day Su ability is not the equivalent of an invocation, nor is it analogous to one.)


Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?


Isn't that what it officially is, ruleswise speaking?

Nope. Eldritch Blast resembles an invocation, but it's explicitly not one.

[Brackenlord]

It's quite the chassis, but I value progression higher in the 10s range.
I vote for +1, at ECL 14 it is a pile of useful things with very little direction so I imagine it dipping lots of frontloaded classes to try to keep up with non-monstrous PCs reaching their PRCs capstones.

[Tzardok]

Nope. Eldritch Blast resembles an invocation, but it's explicitly not one.

Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast is an invocation. How the hell did that happen? :smalleek:

Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.

[No brains]

Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.


Oh, yeah, nothing to do with each other. I don't know what came over me.

It probably originated as a typo and then someone just rolled with the joke (rolled like pie dough!). It's decently notable typo, with the r key being missed entirely. I wonder if there's a pir fiend that doesn't do anything besides sit equidistant between pit and pie fiends. It would still have powerful SLAs, but it doesn't really use them to any end.

[Tzardok]

Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast is an invocation. How the hell did that happen? :smalleek:

Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.

Ahah! That's where it comes from. The translation incorporated the errata:



Page 8: Invocations and Eldritch Blast
Change this section as follows:
Invocations and Eldritch Blast: Eldritch blast is an invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new eldritch attacks.

So yes, Eldritch Blast is an invocation.

[loky1109]

Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast is an invocation. How the hell did that happen? :smalleek:

Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.
It was errated if I remember correctly.

[Dimers]

And the pit fiend can quite easily max out its Greater Dispel with one ioun stone and two magic tattoos. Honestly, dispel spam can disable quite a lot of encounters all on its own. Especially if you take Arcane Mastery, you can basically automatically dispel or counter one spell per round.

Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?

SRD says "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell". It doesn't call out dispel magic as an exception to that rule, so in this case the question is moot.

[Brackenlord]

SRD says "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell". It doesn't call out dispel magic as an exception to that rule, so in this case the question is moot.

Is it clear-cut and encompassing enough to trump the specific in Dispel Magic text? Or it's open to interpretation that a SLA can't counterspell a same name spell; or any SLA.

[Tzardok]

Is it clear-cut and encompassing enough to trump the specific in Dispel Magic text? Or it's open to interpretation that a SLA can't counterspell a same name spell; or any SLA.

The text as given in the Rules Compendium:


Spell-like abilities are subject to being dispelled by dispel magic and to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates is subject to spell resistance. They don't function in areas where magic is suppresed or negated, such as in an antimagic field. Spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

[Troacctid]

Specific beats general, so a spell-like ability such as greater dispel magic that specifically says it can counterspell can counterspell.

[Metastachydium]

Ahah! That's where it comes from. The translation incorporated the errata:



So yes, Eldritch Blast is an invocation.

My bad, then. (That's what I get for trusting the books proper!)

[Morphic tide]

It probably originated as a typo and then someone just rolled with the joke (rolled like pie dough!). It's decently notable typo, with the r key being missed entirely. I wonder if there's a pir fiend that doesn't do anything besides sit equidistant between pit and pie fiends. It would still have powerful SLAs, but it doesn't really use them to any end.
As a single word, it exists in Persian with a literal translation of "old person", later being adopted as a term for largely-independent religious teachers/minor spiritual leaders in Islam. I'd go with something local to the Infernal Battlefield of Acheron designed for some active mechanical expression of "fast-tracking" followers to becoming Fiends in truth, with inbuilt qualification for Fiend of Blasphemy.


The text as given in the Rules Compendium:
Pretty clear-cut that it's referencing the general Counterspelling rule, since Dispel Magic can dispel it, so by all rights a Greater Dispel Magic SLA should do the inverse.

[ciopo]

Subjected to being dispelled and subjected to being counterspelled isn't exactly the same, tho.

(I do agree that specific trumos general, but not because of the wording from rule compendium)

[Dimers]

Specific beats general, so a spell-like ability such as greater dispel magic that specifically says it can counterspell can counterspell.

I can understand that interpretation. My thinking is that the 'general' here is that greater dispel can counter and that the 'specific' is But Not When It's A SLA. *shrug* I'm not very invested, either way; I don't think I've actually played in a game where I've seen counterspelling used, so it doesn't feel like a big power difference to me.

[Debatra]

Counterspelling is useful if you bother with it. It's generally an underused mechanic for the simple reason that the game tends to reward acting rather than reacting. A counterspelled mage has simply lost their action. A dead mage gets no actions to lose.

[Thurbane]

I honestly don't know what to make of this joke monster. Let's say LA +1 for now.

BTW, does anyone remember an old (1E maybe) Dragon mag where they statted up Ronald McDonald (under a slightly different name) as an archfiend, who runs a chain of restaurants serving Stench Kow burgers? :smallbiggrin:

Just tried searching for it on DragonDex, but no luck...

Found it: Dragon # 120. Dining Out in the Hells: A fast-food guide to the Lower Planes

Ronnell MaughDonnell.

[liquidformat]

I can understand that interpretation. My thinking is that the 'general' here is that greater dispel can counter and that the 'specific' is But Not When It's A SLA. *shrug* I'm not very invested, either way; I don't think I've actually played in a game where I've seen counterspelling used, so it doesn't feel like a big power difference to me.

Yeah this reflects my thoughts and experience as well.

[Debatra]

+0 - liquidformat, H_H_F_F, Remuko
+1 - Dimers, loky1109, Tzardok, Brackenlord, Thurbane
+2 - remetagross, Beni-Kujaku, ciopo
+3 - AsuraKyoko
+4 - Troacctid

Sorry I've been away for a while, but it seems we have a +1. Next on the docket is the Devil Sail

[Debatra]

Devil Sail (https://web.archive.org/web/20200314182837/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fpsb%2F20030523b)
https://i.imgur.com/T5njKMN.png

Size & Type: Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Space/Reach: 10'/20'
HD: 9, 18 Huge
Speed: Swim 20'
Ability Scores: Str +8, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +8, four penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: One Primary Touch (1d10 acid, plus Con-based Fort or 2d4 Dex)
Skill List: Listen, Spot, Swim
Body Shape: Jellyfish
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 7
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

First thing: They aren't devils. Second thing: The Devil Sail has more RHD than AC. Zero natural armor.

So it can Improved Grab a creature at least one size category smaller than it, and it has a few PLAs. 3/day Dimension Slide and Painful Touch at ML 11, in addition to the attack/defense modes we can never figure out how to convert.

Finally, its Underwater Sense lets it detect any creature within 60' while under water. Though it's less effective at detecting creatures without nervous systems, like undead, oozes, and constructs. Such creatures can only be detected from 30' away. Figments never fool a Devil Sail under water, and there's no mention of that only being ones within range.

Yes, that's it. See you guys tomorrow.

[Troacctid]

Literally unplayable. Absolute garbage. Easy -0.

[Thurbane]

I'm not at all across psionics, but that looks like a lot of RHD for little gain. LA -0 from me.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Whaaaat? It has a touch attack Improved Grab with acid damage and a whopping +8 to ability scores! That alone should make it a +2! And since it's a magical beast, it has full BAB, so it's better than a fighter, so that's another +1. Oh wait, we aren't supposed to make believe we are at WotC? Okay, LA -0 it is.

[loky1109]

I don't think it's totally unplayable, but yeah, -Zero here.

[remetagross]

I find the concept of a psionic jellyfish oddly fitting. That said, it's still going to be a -0.

[Remuko]

CR is 2 below HD? Yeah def -0. Honestly its still probably over CRed. This thing has what 8 AC? 10 -1 Dex -1 Size yeah? 8 AC even with 9d10+36 HP is just...really bad. even at CR 5 this might be weak lol

[ciopo]

It doesn't even have the saving grace of more than one touchy feely when full attacking

[Troacctid]

I don't think it's totally unplayable, but yeah, -Zero here.
I think being unable to move and being unable to breathe are something of a sticking point.

[Tzardok]

Yeah, well, maybe don't play a jellyfish in a landbound campaign.

[loky1109]

I think being unable to move and being unable to breathe are something of a sticking point.

Devil Sail can say exactly the same for any land dweller.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, well, maybe don't play a jellyfish in a landbound campaign.

Devil Sail can say exactly the same for any land dweller.
Implying that there exist D&D campaigns taking place entirely underwater? Sounds fake to me. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me about some mythical campaign that takes place entirely within dead magic zones.

[Tzardok]

Implying that there exist D&D campaigns taking place entirely underwater? Sounds fake to me. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me about some mythical campaign that takes place entirely within dead magic zones.

I am playing one right now. It's called "Real Life". :smalltongue:

[ciopo]

I am playing one right now. It's called "Real Life". :smalltongue:
That's what we want you to believe

[liquidformat]

pretty easy -0

[Debatra]

-0. Next is the Diamondback Viper... aberration.

[Debatra]

Diamondback Viper (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181031/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20001001a)
https://i.imgur.com/7XWxaO9.png
Ah, I see. It's a pun. Yes, the gem is part of its body.

Size & Type: Tiny Aberration
Space/Reach: 2.5'/0'
HD: 1/2
Speed: 5', Fly 20' (Clumsy)
Ability Scores: Str -8, Dex +10, Con +0, Int +4, Wis +0, Cha +2 - Net +8, one penalty
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: Three Primary Bites (1d4 plus poison), one Secondary Tail Slap (1d6)
Skill List: Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble
Body Shape: Three-headed winged snake with a gemstone shell.
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Draconic, Terran)
CR: 1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2

Scent caps off the chassis. For a 1/2-HD creature, this is actually pretty nice. Interestingly, the wings are only for "minimal steering" during flight. There's a bladder full of lighter-than-air gasses in its shell.

Its poison bites have both initial and secondary damage of 1d6 Charisma damage, and for bonus points are flavored as hallucinogenic.

It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.


The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. It's text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."

Thanks, Tzardok.

[Thurbane]

Interesting one.

Such a sloppy, quickly written 3E monster, but it still has potential as a playable race, I guess:


Tiny Aberration
1/2 RHD: so should be swapped out for class level
5 ft speed, fly 20 ft (clumsy), plus jet backwards at 80 (or 160) feet
+4 natural AC
3 bites 1d4 + poison (1d6 Cha/1d6 Cha), tail slap 1d6
Scent, darkvision 60 ft
Str -8, Dex +10, Int +4, Cha +2: net +8.
OKish racial skill list (not that this applies unless you advance by HD).
Has Weapon Finesse and Multiattack listed as feats: may be safe to assume that Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat, as it often is for tiny creatures.

They rarely speak (which is not the same as unable to speak). Very nonstandard body shape, and no manipulative digits to speak of.

The ability mods alone make this fairly attractive, with no RHD looming over you once you start taking class levels. 4 natural attacks, 3 with poison, are also decent. Flight is nice, even though it's clumsy and not very fast (but jet seems to help). +4 natural AC plus size mod to AC, on top of +10 to Dex.

Not sure what your progression here would be? Maybe caster, maybe skillmonkey?

I'll give this a tentative LA +2 for the moment: lots of good stuff, offset mainly by body shape issues. I could be argued upwards, but I don't think I'd go below +2.

[danielxcutter]

Three bites means Rapidstrike is a thing, which is very nice.

[ciopo]

It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.

With clumsy manouvrability, facing is still somewhat relevant

[Batcathat]

Diamondback Viper (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181031/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20001001a)
https://i.imgur.com/7XWxaO9.png
Ah, I see. It's a pun. Yes, the gem is part of its body.

I must admit, when I first saw the image I thought "Why does this monster have a D20?".

And now I sort of wonder if there's some really rich roleplayer out there with diamond dice...

[Thurbane]

Am I correct in recalling that an attack must do damage to deliver poison?

1d4-4? Minimum is 1 damage on a successful hit, right?

[danielxcutter]

I think part of the "cats kill commoners" thing is that they still do 1 damage, so probably.

[H_H_F_F]

Tiny size, type, flight, and ability scores alone make this a very tempting choice for a sneak or a caster type (there's a Savage Species feat for multi-headed casters, IIRC)

Add in the natural armor, the cute disengage/chase with jet, and the truly excellent early-game poison spam... this is good.

The main downside is the lack of hands, which is significant. Slow, crappy movement plays a sidekick.

LA +2 seems solid, I think.

[Beni-Kujaku]

+10 dex and 4 natural armor is great at low level, and no HD makes this creature pretty good as a PC. The poison is also extremely good (1d6 Cha times 3 for the three bites? Count me in! That will disable a heck of a lot of enemies, even later on) That said, no manipulators will quickly become a problem, and for someone that wants to be a rogue (or a swordsage), Tiny size and 20ft clumsy flying is atrocious (no staying in place for flanking, no threatening the opponent, and provokes whenever it attacks). This prevents it from being absolutely broken, and you can't even take Prehensile Tail with such a low strength. LA+2 seems honestly a bit high to me. I'll vote for LA +1.


Also, can I just say that I love that they work with Xorns? A lone gem is really the best way to attract desperate, hungry Xorns so that they work with you.

[loky1109]

I'm vote for +1, too.

[Debatra]

+10 dex and 4 natural armor is great at low level, and no HD makes this creature pretty good as a PC. The poison is also extremely good (1d6 Cha times 3 for the three bites? Count me in! That will disable a heck of a lot of enemies, even later on) That said, no manipulators will quickly become a problem, and for someone that wants to be a rogue (or a swordsage), Tiny size and 20ft clumsy flying is atrocious (no staying in place for flanking, no threatening the opponent, and provokes whenever it attacks). This prevents it from being absolutely broken, and you can't even take Prehensile Tail with such a low strength. LA+2 seems honestly a bit high to me. I'll vote for LA +1.


Also, can I just say that I love that they work with Xorns? A lone gem is really the best way to attract desperate, hungry Xorns so that they work with you.

It doesn't provoke just by attacking, and it has Tumble as a class skill to mitigate the potential AoOs from needing to move into enemy spaces.

On the other hand, it's also not just no staying in place to flank, but no flanking period.

[Caelestion]

I think LA +2 is solid here, yes. You're only going to play this creature with specific builds, but what you get out of it is very good.

[Tzardok]

It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.

The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. Its text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."

[liquidformat]

I really like this punny snake and think the best path forward is Druid, between venomfire and fangshield druid giving you hands its hard to argue with it and maybe Avenger druid for a bit extra speed and to scrap the animal companion. I would probably take a level of barbarian to snag pounce and maybe take Ferocity in place of rage, if you have a generous DM you could probably trade your avenger druid rage for Ferocity too. Maybe swordsage dip and shadow blade to over come your horrible str penalty. Seems like Surrogate Spellcasting and eschew materials will be a feat tax if you want to do any casting, on the plus side with Surrogate spellcasting you don't need nature spell. Psionics will be a good choice too and the little snake makes a good Psion as well. Being tiny makes the Aberration subtype not very useful since you can't leverage it very well for alter self and you already have a pretty good form.

You can't flank so without leveraging invisibility and flatfooted opponents your going to find sneak attacking to be a headache so SA isn't such a great choice for you. A better choice would probably Invisible Fist Monk/Ninja, and most DMs do allow Ninja to take place for Ascetic Rogue feat so you could have a pretty solid build there with a few dips into unarmed swordsage + shadow blade feat and maybe warblade for good measure. The other option there is probably barbarian/scout/mystic ranger build for a pouncing charger build picking up venomfire for good measure, focusing your feats around fly by attack and things like Improved Flight and air heritage to increase your flying capabilities.

Anyways, the big glaring downsides of the snake is that it is slow, has no hands, str penalty, 1 to 2 feat tax if you want to be a caster (Surrogate spellcasting and eschew materials), and will probably be missing some item slots (I think you will have 3 neck slots, 1 ring/belt, one body/armor slot, and maybe a cape/clock?). On the upside no RHD, good ability scores, flying and great AC. Though you have four natural attacks you will either be ignoring them completely in favor of casting or you will have to put some decent resources in to shoring up your -8 str one way or another. The jet ability also seems pretty useless except as a panic button. I think +1 LA might be right here, you have some nice things but whether you go caster or melee you have some issues that have to be overcome the largest being no hands and that one can't be dealt with for at least 5 levels so you will be ECL 6 + before you can do things like open doors...

[Remuko]

I think this is clearly better than +0 and seems everyone so far agrees. I don't think its quite +2 like everyone else says. My vote is +1 for now. I'll leave the possibility for revision if someone brings up something convincing but atm I don't expect to change my mind.

[Troacctid]

I think this is an easy +2. Very high stats and a couple strong abilities.

[remetagross]

It's definitely an LA+2 for a Rogue chassis. for the +10 Dex alone, but the +4 Int does not hurt, as do three natural attacks and an extraordinary flight speed.

[AsuraKyoko]

Yeah, I think this is a pretty clear +2, it gets a lot, and its stat boosts are pretty high.

[Dimers]

No hips/shoulders/hands basically means it can't carry anything, including a bag of holding or handy haversack which is a typical workaround for a low-Strength character. Lack of hands interferes with some things adventurers do often -- manipulate rope, dig (whether with shovel or adamantine dagger), open doors, pull levers, direct horses, that kind of thing. The unusual form makes you easily identifiable and causes some social problems. Reach 0 is a serious disadvantage in melee combat -- where it needs to be if it wants to apply that very nice poison -- and obviously this critter won't be using projectile or thrown weapons. And body slots are disadvantaged.

With all that said, the Dexterity is good for any class at all, the size is a nice defense and helps with stealth, having any fly speed at all is a big advantage in the early game, the poison is great because few creatures have lots of Cha, the natural armor excels for that size and lack of RHD, and scent is useful.

Being one spell level behind as a full caster hurts, especially when you're pressed hard toward being a full caster by your inherent restrictions. And having one hit die in a 3rd-level game is super rough. I have to vote LA +1.

[Thurbane]

The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. It's text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."

That makes it a lot clearer, thank you for finding that.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Multivoice is the Savage Species feat that lets you cast an extra spell/SLA in a round (in addition to your normal SLA, spell, or other special attack done with head, e.g. breath weapon) if you have multiple heads. Which is amazing, but it's got a lot of prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Multiattack, and Quicken Spell. Those last two are probably worth taking anyway, but a typical Diamondback won't be getting much use out of the TWF line.

[Tzardok]

That makes it a lot clearer, thank you for finding that.

No problem. The ability sounded familiar, so I went straight to the kraken to see wether it was actually the same. And lo and behold, it was the same.

[Caelestion]

And having one hit die in a 3rd-level game is super rough. I have to vote LA +1.

Well, yeah, that is the side-effect of having +2 LA. That's not a weakness: that's literally part of the point.

[Remuko]

Well, yeah, that is the side-effect of having +2 LA. That's not a weakness: that's literally part of the point.

the point of LA is to balance things. if it makes them so weak as to be unplayable thats not balanced. i think they were implying with +2 its too frail to be used at all therefore its not a balanced LA.

[Troacctid]

the point of LA is to balance things. if it makes them so weak as to be unplayable thats not balanced. i think they were implying with +2 its too frail to be used at all therefore its not a balanced LA.
It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.

[Remuko]

It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.

Yup I'm not necessarily saying its right but that's what I read at the intent behind their comment which seemed to be misunderstood by the person I was replying to.

[liquidformat]

It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.

Yeah, however, the half-Minotaur has hands, the ability to flank, can cast spells without feat taxes, can carry items, and isn't missing over half the item slots. This thing isn't all positives and it has some decently large negatives to deal with.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, however, the half-Minotaur has hands, the ability to flank, can cast spells without feat taxes, can carry items, and isn't missing over half the item slots. This thing isn't all positives and it has some decently large negatives to deal with.
Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.

Yes‚ he is just arguing that if something is worse than the best LA+1‚ then it must not be LA+2. (Of course‚ that's assuming Half-Minotaur is balanced as a +1‚ which it is anything but)

In the end‚ it is much weaker than something that is much too strong for LA+1. Hence the debate between +1 and +2

[Troacctid]

If half-minotaur were +2 LA, it would still be one of the best +2 LAs in the game.

[Thurbane]

So, in people's opinions, what are the "best" LA +1 and LA +2 races with no RHD we've assigned in these threads so far, for comparison?

[liquidformat]

Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.

Honestly I feel like you don't actually read other people's posts or just choose to ignore anything that contradicts your statement and this isn't the first time by far.

Anyways as I said already, the snake has great ability scores but it has a number of glaring issues that will need to be dealt with. One of the biggest being doing anything that requires hands and to go along with that carrying things, you can't deal with that at least until level 5 but more likely 8 to 10. This doesn't strike me as being one of the best choices at LA +1, any path you choose to go with this snake is going to require some investment to overcome its handicaps.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, in people's opinions, what are the "best" LA +1 and LA +2 races with no RHD we've assigned in these threads so far, for comparison?

Well‚ we really haven't assigned a lot of +1s and +2s to creatures without HD‚ but if I had to choose‚ I'd say the duergar for its high caster level and the nixie or the varoot for their SLA (3/day Alter Self for the varoot is really strong)

[Thurbane]

Well‚ we really haven't assigned a lot of +1s and +2s to creatures without HD‚ but if I had to choose‚ I'd say the duergar for its high caster level and the nixie or the varoot for their SLA (3/day Alter Self for the varoot is really strong)

Interesting: I'd definitely say this critter is better than Duergar, but not as good as a Varoot.

I'm sticking with +2 as per my original post, FWIW.

[Troacctid]

Races that have gotten +1 with no HD (not including templates):
Animated Object (Small Wagon)
Darkmantle
Drow
Duergar
Formian Worker
Githyanki
Githzerai
Svirfneblin
Badger
Astral Construct, 1st-level
Half-Giant
Feytouched
Carcass Eater
Argent Spider, Tiny

Races that have gotten +2 with no HD (not including templates):
Grig
Nixie
Petal
Puppeteer
Dark Creeper
Nerra, Varoot
Shadow Asp

I'd personally say the best +2 is either the grig or the nixie, and the best +1 is the astral construct, or possibly the badger?

The most obvious comparison, though, is the shadow asp, as it has very similar base stats (with the shadow asp having higher Str, Con, and Wis while the diamondback has higher Int, Cha, and natural armor) and shares the snake body type. In comparison, the diamondback viper loses the shadow asp's ability to turn incorporeal for a limited time each day, but gains the ability to fly/jet, as well as the extra heads (and extra bites) and scent. IMO they're very close.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The most obvious comparison, though, is the shadow asp, as it has very similar base stats (with the shadow asp having higher Str, Con, and Wis while the diamondback has higher Int, Cha, and natural armor) and shares the snake body type. In comparison, the diamondback viper loses the shadow asp's ability to turn incorporeal for a limited time each day, but gains the ability to fly/jet, as well as the extra heads (and extra bites) and scent. IMO they're very close.

I mean, the shadow asp was one vote away from being voted LA +1, so that's pretty close to our current situation. I don't feel like the ability to defeat some foes in a round (3 Cha-dealing bites is harsh, 4 with Rapidstrike) measures to the sheer versatility and utility of incorporealness. But yeah, with flight and higher intelligence, it may be slightly better. I'll change my vote to LA+2.

[H_H_F_F]

One of us, one of us!

[Debatra]

+2 - Thurbane, H_H_F_F, Caelestion, Troacctid, remetagross, AsuraKyoko, Beni-Kujaku
+1 - loky1109, liquidformat, Remuko, Dimers

Could have seen this going either way, but we ended up at +2. Next up is the Disembodied Spirit template.

[Debatra]

Disembodied Spirit (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074252/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030924a)
https://i.imgur.com/bcJOTIS.png

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Plant with at least 6 Charisma.
Size & Type: Gains Incorporeal subtype. Note that despite losing their Constitution score, the Type is unchanged. (Even the flavor text makes it clear these aren't "true undead".)
Space/Reach: Unchanged
Hit Dice: Max HP appears to be equal to base creature's current HP at time of acquisition. This is probably abusable.
Speed: Fly speed equal to base creature's land speed, or its Fly speed if higher. Perfect Maneuverability. Existing movement modes are not explicitly lost, though being incorporeal may make walking on land difficult.
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +0, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +0, no "penalties"
Armor Class: Lose natural armor, gain ChaMod to deflection, minimum 1.
Skills: Unchanged
CR: 0. Not "+0", but 0.
WotC LA: +0
Our LA: -0

So you gain this template by going through a special portal that sends your body and soul to different destinations. Needless to say, your equipment goes with your body.

Most notably, this template will cost you the ability to attack, and limit you to a single move action each round. You also can't speak.

In exchange, you get incorporeality (with all the usual benefits and drawbacks) and one special ability: Rejuvenation. Whenever you would be "destroyed", you get to make a level check against a flat DC of 16. Success allows the Disembodied Spirit to restore itself in 2d4 days. Though there is also a Ghost-esque "set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace" clause.

And hey, if you decide you don't like being a Disembodied Spirit, you can be restored with Resurrection or True Res. Though you still need your old body (or a piece of it) for regular Resurrection.

[InvisibleBison]

Most notably, this template will cost you the ability to speak.

I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Sooooo. You become incorporeal. That's all, but that's much. You don't even change type? Really? The fact that you lose your Con and that you're considered to be destroyed instead of killed makes me think you should have. And the fact that it's CR 0 makes me think you should not have kept the base creature's special attacks and qualities. But hey, here we are.

The fact that you can't affect corporeal items without something like a ghost touch gauntlet is a problem, but the simple fact that you're fully incorporeal without losing any important stats (you don't care about Constitution, you keep your max HP) or any spellcasting, without Undead weaknesses (also without undead immunities) is such a boon that I don't see it being worth less than LA+2. Oh, yeah, also you're immortal. Not the biggest deal, since your party loses anyway, but it may become very interesting if the mentioned check can be made by a standard action and not every 2d4 days (the wording is confusing).

Also the whole "the only way to destroy a disembodied spirit is to set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace" seems akwardly copied from Ghost. And doesn't apply here. We know exactly what prevents them from resting, it's that they are stuck behind bars of force after a wizard created an evil portal to separate their spirit from their body!


EDIT: Oh, didn't see the fact that you can only make a move action per turn. Yeah, that's a problem. This list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?403739-Alternate-Uses-of-Move-Actions) may be useful.

[Tzardok]

You've forgot one trait:
Attack: A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn.

I'm not sure, but I don't think this template is worth anything.

[loky1109]

I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.
Beholder + Master of the Unseen Hand.
I vote for +1. Maybe with asterisk.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You've forgot one trait:

I'm not sure, but I don't think this template is worth anything.

Counterpoint: Dragonborn of Bahamut.

You are still a humanoid, and DoB doesn't require much beyond being non-evil. You lose all your traits (including "can't attack"), and you keep your subtype.
What? We have an officially published asterisk-on-a-stick, why not use it?

Also going through the Rite of Rebirth when you're basically a ghost is delightfully ironic.



Beholder + Master of the Unseen Hand.
I vote for +1. Maybe with asterisk.

Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.

[Debatra]

I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.

I... somehow managed to miss that giant red flag waving around.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.

I'd read that as "can't take 2 move actions in a turn", not "is unable to take non-move actions". Could technically be read either way, but the first one makes more sense since they specified that it can't take standard actions separately. Changed my mind after looking at the text more closely. I think this can't take actions other than a single move action per turn.

If we don't asterisk that (or take into account fixes like Dragonborn), this is -0. You could go all in on Swarm damage or something else that doesn't require actions, but outside of that, incorporeality is never going to be worth most of your actions.

If we do asterisk it, well, it's worse than Ghost, but is it worse enough to be a +1*? Probably, but maybe not. I'm very open to having my mind changed on that.

[loky1109]

Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.

I had debating about it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25124379&postcount=70) with matty_p. )))
Swift is out scope, because it's 3.0, so let's talk about free. One of free action is talk, but DS had specific clarification about talking. It doesn't need if DS can't do free actions.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'd read that as "can't take 2 move actions in a turn", not "is unable to take non-move actions". Could technically be read either way, but the first one makes more sense since they specified that it can't take standard actions separately.

If we don't asterisk that (or take into account fixes like Dragonborn), this is -0. You could go all in on Swarm damage or something else that doesn't require actions, but outside of that, incorporeality is never going to be worth most of your actions.

If we do asterisk it, well, it's worse than Ghost, but is it worse enough to be a +1*? Probably, but maybe not. I'm very open to having my mind changed on that.

The fact that it is CR 0 pretty clearly points in the direction that they are not supposed to contribute in any way in a fight, so "unable to take non-move actions" seems the most reasonable interpretation of RAI.


I had debating about it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25124379&postcount=70) with matty_p. )))
Swift is out scope, because it's 3.0, so let's talk about free. One of free action is talk, but DS had specific clarification about talking. It doesn't need if DS can't do free actions.

Aaaaah! I was wondering why a way to immediately reset a CR back to 0 was not abused in every iteration of VC! Yeah, Free actions seem to be fair game, but most probably not swift ones.

Besides a beholder, a swarm may be interesting (an incorporeal swarm would be such a pain to kill, or to reduce to 0 HP), or a creature with some interesting aura. Of course, something with a gaze attack would be perfect. How do you feel about fighting an incorporeal medusa?

[liquidformat]

So to start off this thing needs an asterisk for only being able to take single move actions; if that is left on then this is an easy -0 LA template.

Moving on, so you get the incorporeal subtype and nothing else, not even the ability to manifest or possession or any of those fun bells and whistles the ghost template gives you so you are left up to what feats to take from Ghost walk. Unless you are in an extremely niche game that means this template is a straight up -0 on anything that isn't a caster. If I am understanding incorporeal correctly even as a caster, besides positive energy, negative energy, force effects (and ghost touched weapons) any damaging spell you use has a 50% chance to be ignored. Also since you are incapable of speech that means all spells with Verbal components are out? So you have to cherry pick spells with no verbal components, and no material components, or use silent spell and Eschew Materials. This seems like enough negatives that +1* LA seems about right, I would be open to increasing that but I haven't seen any arguments as to why it should be higher yet.

[loky1109]

I think DS actually should not lose its Con, it looks like lazy copy-paste from Ghost.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Moving on, so you get the incorporeal subtype and nothing else, not even the ability to manifest or possession or any of those fun bells and whistles the ghost template gives you so you are left up to what feats to take from Ghost walk. Unless you are in an extremely niche game that means this template is a straight up -0 on anything that isn't a caster. If I am understanding incorporeal correctly even as a caster, besides positive energy, negative energy, force effects (and ghost touched weapons) any damaging spell you use has a 50% chance to be ignored. Also since you are incapable of speech that means all spells with Verbal components are out? So you have to cherry pick spells with no verbal components, and no material components, or use silent spell and Eschew Materials. This seems like enough negatives that +0* LA seems about right, I would be open to increasing that but I haven't seen any arguments as to why it should be higher yet.

Well, no. Incorporeal can't be affected by lots of things, but an incorporeal creature is on the material plane, its spells (or whatever other effects it creates) are fully felt by its opponents. And the Verbal components are only a problem if you go spellcaster. Warlocks exist, psionic classes too, dragonfire adepts, and even bards who can fulfill verbal components with music, all will enjoy the full versatility, utility and defensive benefits of being incorporeal and unaffected by everything anything below ECL 7 throws at them, while losing none of their important abilities. As I said higher, this is worse than a ghost, but being incorporeal is still extremely good, and should warrant LA +2* in my opinion. Incorporeal creatures can basically always have concealment, infiltrate any castle or camp, stave off any restraints or entanglements, and beat any number of mooks. A ghost touch gauntlet will allow the spirit to manipulate items for 4k gp. That's a problem, but really not that much of one, especially if you compensate with spells.

That said, I agree that except for a specific challenge, I don't see any creature who would really benefit from losing its standard, even if it becomes incorporeal afterwards. LA-0

[ciopo]

"A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn."

What happens out of initiative? can it do (whatever he's otherwise allowed) if it's not taking a turn? if we take feats to allow spellcasting, can it , for example, summon monsters while out of initiative?

it is not an attack after all, and we aren't acting in the abstraction of "turn"

let's say a disembodied spirit has the ghostly grasp feat, the craft wondrous items feat and the relevant prerequisites, could it craft items? that isn't "an action"


It all boils down to how descriptive of the overall creature we take that paragraph present in the attacks section

[liquidformat]

Well, no. Incorporeal can't be affected by lots of things, but an incorporeal creature is on the material planeLA-0

I thought default for ghosts and Incorporeal creatures is the ethereal plane, no? I don't see anything inside the article that specifically says it is on either the material or ethereal plane and it has no ability to manifest.

[Tzardok]

I thought default for ghosts and Incorporeal creatures is the ethereal plane, no? I don't see anything inside the article that specifically says it is on either the material or ethereal plane and it has no ability to manifest.

No. Incorporeal creatures are by default on the Material. Ghosts are on the Ethereal, but they are corporeal there. When a ghost manifests, it appears as an incorporeal creature on the Material, but at the same time stays corporeal on the Ethereal.

Edit: Libris Mortis spends half a chapter talking about the differences between being incorporeal and being on the Ethereal.

[liquidformat]

No. Incorporeal creatures are by default on the Material. Ghosts are on the Ethereal, but they are corporeal there. When a ghost manifests, it appears as an incorporeal creature on the Material, but at the same time stays corporeal on the Ethereal.

Edit: Libris Mortis spends half a chapter talking about the differences between being incorporeal and being on the Ethereal.

Ok that is much better than I initially thought, I think this is a +1* LA then.

[ciopo]

have there been other istances where the LA assignment thread increased the LA compared to the WOTC one? I know some tmeplates I woulnd't mind not being +0 *cough unseelie fey cough*

Anyway, incorporeality, flight, CHA to AC, immunity to STR and CON damage in exchange of a very significant limitation, I'm going for -0

[Troacctid]

+0 is my vote, but I think -0 is not unreasonable given that it exists already at +0 and has no relevant char-op applications that I know of. Maybe on a marshal cohort so that they can do their auras without having to worry about getting attacked?

I prefer +0 to be safe. There are a lot of monsters that this thread is adding to the pool of playable races, and only a few of them need to have a critical mass of actionless powers in order to be viable as disembodied spirits. I'm not sure which monsters, but I can easily conceive of their existence, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Remuko]

feels easy -0 to me. I'm not sure if it would even be +0 if we removed the "cant do anything but move" restriction tbh

[PoeticallyPsyco]

have there been other istances where the LA assignment thread increased the LA compared to the WOTC one? I know some tmeplates I woulnd't mind not being +0 *cough unseelie fey cough*

Early on in the Fiend Folio, there was a lizard-man type monster with 3RHD. We gave it +1 LA, but Wizards had originally given it ECL 3. Can't remember its name, though.

[H_H_F_F]

I'm voting -0. The restriction is beyond terrible.

[Thurbane]

ShurikVch made a thread exploring possibilities of this template: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635960-How-about-to-use-a-Disembodied-Spirit&p=25188031

It was concluded you really need to jump through hoops to make it remotely effective at doing much of anything, and even then, there are a few ways the RAW can be read on it's action and attack limitations.

All in all, I'm inclined to rate this LA -0. Being incorporeal is nice, as is a chance to auto return after being destroyed, but there are better and far more effective ways of getting both. This template just has too many inbuilt drawbacks...

[Tzardok]

Yeah. This is the kind of template that you give a character for a single session until the party manages to recover the body. -0 from me.

[remetagross]

It's completely useless, except maybe on your Familiar to whom you're linked by Telepathy so that you don't risk losing a bunch of XP that often since it's more difficult to kill, and you get a perfect scout. But still, meh. LA-0 for a PC.

[Beni-Kujaku]

ShurikVch made a thread exploring possibilities of this template: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635960-How-about-to-use-a-Disembodied-Spirit&p=25188031

It was concluded you really need to jump through hoops to make it remotely effective at doing much of anything, and even then, there are a few ways the RAW can be read on it's action and attack limitations.

All in all, I'm inclined to rate this LA -0. Being incorporeal is nice, as is a chance to auto return after being destroyed, but there are better and far more effective ways of getting both. This template just has too many inbuilt drawbacks...

This thread made a lot more creatures available. For example, take the disembodied spirit of a Dread Blossom Swarm. You force distraction with your swarm attack, and you have an inhaled poison around you for paralysis. You don't need standard actions, what you need is to not be killed by fire or cold, and Disembodied Spirit does just that. Then you take one level of dragon shaman (the particular swarm anatomy of being able to take up any 4 adjacent squares makes the auras especially potent, and they are large enough that you can position yourself to help allies and poison enemies), one of swordsage and/or two of ardent to move around more easily and to get White Raven Tactics, one or two of incarnate for soulspark familiar, lucky dice and spellward shirt, then you go warchief and increase all your friends strength in combat. Or forsaker to really be invincible. Or Beastmaster with Share Soulmeld to give them all mage's spectacles. Or Artificer (crafting isn't an action per se). There are things to do, and being incorporeal is really good all by itself.

[Caelestion]

Being incorporeal is a big bonus, and obviously we have to asterisk the "can only take move actions" bit if we want it to actually be played, which is after all the point of this thread. LA +1*.

[Debatra]

I'm not sure this thing needs an asterisk for its limited actions. I particularly disagree that the point of these threads is that we want these monsters to be played. We're rating their playability, not making them playable. If the goal were to make them playable, then most -0 monsters would then end up getting a discussion on what sorts of buffs or reduced RHD would bring them up to a half-decent +0 or +0*. (For those curious about my sig, it's just because I feel like that phrase rolls off the tongue better than "Rating the Playability of Monsters Since 2016".)


The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.

The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove

Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.

What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.

But if you guys feel as though its warranted here, we'll let the votes decide. But I'm also throwing in my own vote for -0, no asterisk.

[liquidformat]

I am fine with it either way, I just wanted to comment on the differences between the two options. I think in this case we can probably leave on the crippling action economy since it is still playable and there are work arounds. As pointed out I don't think this is a case where an asterisk is needed, so -0 LA it is.

[danielxcutter]

This is one of the rare cases where I feel confident to vote instead of just lurking and making the occasional comment.

LA -0, no asterisk; this is not the kind of case where we want to arbitrarily change things about it in order to make playable.

[Dimers]

The template itself is unadulterated junk. The fact that there are specific ways to make it less junky doesn't really signify. LA -0.

[TiaC]

Unmodified, it's a clear -0. If you don't specifically build around it, your character is useless, and even if you do, you could have made something better with less effort without it.

However, it is such a "You don't get to interact with the campaign" ability that I think it should be asterisked and given a +1*. You can't speak, can't use most skills, can't attack, can't use most class abilities, and the most basic reading of the ability disallows swift and free actions as well. It's a simple deletion that's not comparable to the amount of work needed to bring most -0 monsters up to +0.

[Debatra]

Life springs things on you sometimes.

+1 - loky1109
+0 - Troacctid
-0 - PoeticallyPsyco, Beni-Kujaku, ciopo, Remuko, H_H_F_F, Thurbane, Tzardok, remetagross, Debatra, liquidformat, danielxcutter, Dimers

Potential Asterisk Votes
+1* - PoeticallyPsyco, liquidformat (but prefers -0 no asterisk), Caelestion, TiaC
+2* - Beni-Kujaku

Next up is the Dracolisk. No, that's Dracolisk.

[Debatra]

Dracolisk (https://web.archive.org/web/20100107234224/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dungeon/Lost_Caverns_Hi.zip)
(Download Link)
https://i.imgur.com/F11p0jc.png

Size & Type: Large Outsider (Extraplanar)
Space/Reach: 10'/10'
HD: 18
Speed: 20', Fly 40' (Average)
Ability Scores: Str +22, Dex -2, Con +12, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +6 - Net +32, two penalties
Natural Armor: Presumably 13.
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d10 - the listed one has Improved Natural Attack as a non-bonus feat for 2d8), two Secondary Claws (1d6)
Skill List: Hide (+20 in "the cavern", which I will be generous and expand to caves in general because I can't find anything special about "the cavern" in question.), Listen, Spot
Body Shape: Eight-legged dragon.
Speech (Languages): Yes (Draconic)
CR: 14
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

From the same module as the Cauchimera, and having an uneasy alliance with them in the book as well, this creature is the offspring of a Black Dragon (which we gave -0 across the board of age categories) and a Greater Abyssal Basilisk (also -0, though the regular Basilisk got +1). Let's see if it's any better than the sum of its ancestry.

DR 10/magic may as well not even be there at this level. SR 23 is bad, but not completely useless. It's immune to acid, and resists both fire and cold by ten. In addition to the 60' Darkvision all Outsiders have, the Dracolisk also has Low-Light Vision.

Once per day, they can Smite a good creature for an extra handful of damage. Not really impressive at this level, but it's a smite attack. Also once per day they can use a 60' line of acid breath, dealing 6d8 damage, with a Constitution-based reflex save for half.

And of course, there's the petrifying gaze attack. Anything within 30' that looks at this thing makes a Charisma-based fortitude save to avoid being permanently turned to stone.

Wait a minute... This thing is literally just an Abyssal Greater Basilisk with a slightly worse version of the Half-Dragon template. No listed immunity to sleep or paralysis, but it appears to have enough HP to require D12s for an average roll (Outsiders normally have D8s, but the AGB already had D10s.) And the fact that its type isn't changed to Dragon leaves it without a lot of support that the template would normally give it access to. ...And it also lets it take the template "for real" in order to double-up on the benefits if you really want to do that. (Actually, come to think of it, there isn't explicitly a restriction against Dragons taking the Half-Dragon template anyway. Weird.) We gave the Half-Dragon template +2, but what happens when you add that to a -0 creature?

[danielxcutter]

This thing would be a lot better if it didn’t have 18 bloody RHD.

[Dimers]

"Atk options" lists Blind-Fight, so maybe you get that as a bonus feat?

Will save seems to be miscalculated; outsiders (and also dragons) have all good saves and the example creature has Iron Will, so the listed +9 is four points short of the +13 that it should be for Wisdom 10.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

You've got a gaze attack with short range and no particular way to get into range quickly. It's party-unfriendly and it's the only reason you have to raise your Charisma. Your one-per-day breath weapon is meaningless at this level. You've got good hit points and Fortitude from Constitution. Strength is helpful for a beatstick but not really comparable to the DPR value of, say, warblade maneuvers or totemist melds at this level. You're vulnerable to dismissal and the like. Outsider skill points, but with a serious Int penalty and few class skills to spend them on. Your ability to manipulate objects is questionable, and having no innate way to change from Large size will occasionally be a problem.

This is a pretty plain LA -0. It doesn't belong in a level 18 party; it really has no way to face near-epic challenges. All it has going for it is good Constitution and acid immunity.

[H_H_F_F]

Outsider HD are good. That being said, 18 of them for this is still too much, I think. Obvious continuation... Crusader, probably? Two more levels of that would give it 6th level maneuvers at 20.

I'm thinking this is probably a -0, but I'll wait for Thurbane's dissection to see if I missed anything.

[loky1109]

This is -0, but one of strong -0.

[remetagross]

Definitely a -0 for me. The petrification trick is cute, but a lot of foes at CR 18 don't care for that, either because they're celestials, or incorporeal, or are beatsticks with a million HDs and 80 Con, and as such a sky-high Fort save. Nice catch for having noticed this dude just got the Half-dragon template put on!

[Chaos Jackal]

Would be decent... with maybe a third less HD.

As it stands, 18 is a whole lot to pay for so few perks, even if they're outsider RHD. You don't have enough levels to progress anything or promote any serious synergies, you're not actually a dragon so that's a bunch of tricks out the window and being a half decent beatstick means little at a level where you'll already have 9th-level maneuvers or will be oneshotting stuff left and right with charges or whatever. The petrification seems to be the only other big point outside of the mountain of Str, but it's not a particularly reliable point. This is -0.

[Remuko]

easy -0. how sad.

[StevenC21]

-0, definitely.

Cool picture though.

[liquidformat]

This is -0, but one of strong -0.

How is this in anyway a strong -0? If we cut its HD in half I am still thinking it would be -0 or maybe just barely +0 at that point. In no way is this what I expect of a monster that takes up 18 levels. This is an easy -0 LA As Debatra pointed out it is strictly worse than a Greater Abyssal Basilisk half dragon which still is an easy -0 LA.

[loky1109]

How is this in anyway a strong -0? If we cut its HD in half I am still thinking it would be -0 or maybe just barely +0 at that point. In no way is this what I expect of a monster that takes up 18 levels. This is an easy -0 LA As Debatra pointed out it is strictly worse than a Greater Abyssal Basilisk half dragon which still is an easy -0 LA.
It's definitely isn't weak -0. )))
Not, for example, 30HD mindless undead.

[Morphic tide]

Comparing against "Big Dumb Fighters" it has enough +numbers to function, since +11 Strength modifier and AC does silly things to the combat math, but there's no room for utilities save maybe some incredibly ridiculous cheese with Ardent. So LA -0 because you're stuck to the one note the monster has, for all I'm confident that it can get combat math working just fine.

The save-or-lose is not irrelevant, but does need serious investment to have a good chance of working against any "big beater" with a strong Fort save, which is for whatever reason the very obvious majority at this point. 16 Charisma, Ability Focus, +6 Charisma enhancer, and Irresistable Gaze brings the DC to 32, turning it into a coin-flip to end a Balor before it even takes an action. And that's investment not being put into leveraging those numbers to kill whatever doesn't get Petrified or desperately rummaging for ways to do literally anything but trivialize combat.

[Thurbane]

Without going into a detailed analysis, this has too many RHD for what it gets. I'm also voting LA -0.

Sidenote: interesting how this compares to the "official" 3.5 Dracolisk that appears in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which is literally a half-black dragon/half advanced basilisk. CR 12, 18 HD, Large Dragon, Str 31, Dex 8, Con 22, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 13. When we played that module, it petrified the Druid's dog animal companion, which was under the effects of an Enlarge Animal at the time. None of us had the means to un-petrify it, so we were left with the logistics of getting a large stone dog statue out of a dungeon and back to town. :smallbiggrin:

[Debatra]

Another clear -0. Next up is the Ectoplasmic Dragon.

[Tzardok]

Ugh. 3.0 psionics. Again!

[Debatra]

Ectoplasmic Dragon (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215634/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20040123a)
https://i.imgur.com/cfszHnO.png

Size & Type: Medium-Colossal Dragon (Fire)
Space/Reach: Presumably normal for its size.
HD: 8 (Medium, Wyrmling), 11 (Medium, Very Young), 14 (Large, Young), 17 (Large, Juvenile), 20 (Huge, Young Adult), 23 (Huge, Adult), 26 (Huge, Mature Adult), 29 (Huge, Old), 32 (Gargantuan, Very Old), 35 (Gargantuan, Ancient), 38 (Gargantuan, Wyrm), 41 (Colossal, Great Wyrm)
Speed: 40', Swim 80', Fly 150' (Poor) (Wyrmling - Juvenile), Fly 200' (Clumsy) (Young Adult - Old), Fly 250' (Clumsy) (Very Old - Great Wyrm)

Ability Scores (Wyrmling): Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +0 - Net +22, no penalties
Ability Scores (Very Young): Str +8, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +2 - Net +28, no penalties
Ability Scores (Young): Str +12, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +2 - Net +36, no penalties
Ability Scores (Juvenile): Str +14, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +4 - Net +42, no penalties
Ability Scores (Young Adult): Str +18, Dex +4, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +6, Cha +4 - Net +50, no penalties
Ability Scores (Adult): Str +20, Dex +4, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +56, no penalties
Ability Scores (Mature Adult): Str +22, Dex +4, Con +12, Int +10, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +62, no penalties
Ability Scores (Old): Str +24, Dex +4, Con +12, Int +14, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +76, no penalties
Ability Scores (Very Old): Str +28, Dex +4, Con +14, Int +16, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +84, no penalties
Ability Scores (Ancient): Str +30, Dex +4, Con +16, Int +18, Wis +14, Cha +12 - Net +94, no penalties
Ability Scores (Wyrm): Str +32, Dex +4, Con +18, Int +20, Wis +14, Cha +12 - Net +100, no penalties
Ability Scores (Great Wyrm): Str +36, Dex +4, Con +20, Int +22, Wis +16, Cha +14 - Net +112, no penalties

Natural Armor: Age Category RHD-1. I'm not listing them all after that monster of an ability score chart.
Natural Weapons: Standard True Dragon lineup. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)
Skill List: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device (Standard True Dragon list, no noted extras.)
Body Shape: Dragon
Speech (Languages): Yes (Draconic) (Not noted, but is true for all True Dragons.)
CR: 5-27
WotC LA: +4 (Wyrmling), +5 (Very Young), +6 (Young) - (Juvenile+)
Our LA: +1 (Wyrmling), +0 (Very Young and Young), -0 (Juvenile+)

A Dragon without scales, but instead a smooth, highly reflective hide. We of course have the standard True Dragon packages. Frightful Presence, a bunch of natural weapons, immunity to sleep and paralysis, etc.

Instead of immunity to an energy type (though they do have the Fire Subtype and all that entails), they are immune to the Dismiss Ectoplasm power. While very specific, this is one less save-or-die the Ectoplasmic Dragon needs to worry about. Though you could also not worry about it by not being ectoplasmic. They can also travel instantly between the Material and Astral planes as a standard action, with no listed limit on how often they may do so.

It has psi resistance 21 starting at 20-RHD Young Adulthood, which of course scales poorly and further into irrelevance as it ages. It gains damage reduction at the same age, but it never requires anything other than magic to overcome it. Instead of spellcasting as a sorcerer, it manifests as a Psion who chose Metacreativity as its discipline. Its ML starts at 1 when the Dragon becomes Young, then increases by two for each age category.

It also has a few Psi-Likes aside from the ever-inconvertible Attack/Defense modes: Very Young - Ectoplasmic Cocoon 3/day, Young - Chameleon 3/day, Juvenile - Negate Psionics 3/day, Adult - Dismiss Ectoplasm 3/day, Old - Energy Barrier 2/day, Ancient - Catapsi 1/day, Great Wyrm - Mass Cocoon 1/day. Saves are Int-based.

Their breath weapon is actually quite unusual, being more akin to a fireball than the normal cone or line. While not explicitly stated, their Fire subtype and the fact that the substance is called Whitefire leaves us with the obvious assumption. It deals 2d8 damage per age category, with the standard Con-based reflex save for half. Its maximum range and blast radius are both dependent on the Ectoplasmic Dragon's size, starting at a 40' range and 10' radius when the Dragon is a Medium-sized Wyrmling, and increasing by 20' and 5' per size category respectively.

Finally, a Young Adult Ectoplasmic Dragon can coat itself in a Whitefire Aura once per day as a standard action. It lasts one round per age category, and causes any creature that strikes it with a natural or handheld weapon to take damage in return, with a reflex save for half whose DC is noted to be equal to the Dragon's Frightful Presence. (Not based on the same formula, just "DC same as frightful presence". So I guess technically you could take Ability Focus (Frightful Presence) and double-up on the benefit?) The aura's damage starts at 5d4, and increases by another 5d4 every two age categories.

It's a True Dragon. Only three times have we ever not given one -0, and all three were Wyrmlings. (For the curious: White, Brass, and Silver each got +1.) Will the Ectoplasmic Dragon join that exclusive club?

[remetagross]

It will not. Starting at 8 RHDs is too high a price to pay: going into any form of casting class is doomed to failure, and the rest of the package is nice and all but less interesting than actual class features. The swim speed is nice. Maybe I'd give LA+0 to the wyrmling.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It will not. Starting at 8 RHDs is too high a price to pay: going into any form of casting class is doomed to failure, and the rest of the package is nice and all but less interesting than actual class features. The swim speed is nice. Maybe I'd give LA+0 to the wyrmling.

I disagree. The ectoplasmic wyrmling has better stats than the Silver wyrmling (+4 in all physical stats, -2 Wis, -4 Cha), an obviously worse breath weapon and no Alternate Form, but way better movement options with a fast swimming speed and higher flying speed, and especially a planar travel ability. The astral Plane is great for scrying, buffing, for getting away, or for infiltrating enemy strongholds. If Silver got +1 with 7 RHD, I don't see why Ectoplasmic wouldn't get +0 with 8 RHD. Of course, -0 for all age categories above.

[remetagross]

You might have misread my post as advocating for LA-0? Because I'm for LA+0, as you seem to be too. I had forgotten the plane shifting power of these dragons in my assessment. It's a strong, useful ability. That is still an LA+0 in my opinion, but a pretty good one at that.

[Thurbane]

Imma sit this one out - I struggle with dragons and their age categories in terms of playability at the best of times; throw psionics into the mix, and I don't feel informed enough to vote.

[Xanyo]

Large amounts of HD are basically one of the special qualities of a dragon. They rely on those big piles of dice and base bonuses to make them a challenge for their intended CR. If I were writing a dragon class one of it's main features would be getting more HD than its level would normally indicate. Counting each HD as, say, 3/4 of a level.

In the context of this thread, that would be essentially a negative LA. Naturally the wyrmling is the most playable, but how are you going to play them? Sure, you've got some movement modes and some stats, a little armor and a mild breath weapon. At this level the value of flight starts to fall off - more and more opponents are going to have a response to someone trying to flap around just out of reach. You're fast, sure, but running away doesn't win a fight. Maybe you can build yourself for strafing. Just never go indoors.

Your fighter buddy may not have wings (unless he bought some) but his full plate is comparable to your armor. He may not have your stats (although he might for the important ones if he's a monster race or templated). He can use a bow. All you've got is a pile of numbers that, sure, they're nice. But they aren't class features.

Dragons of all sorts don't get anything particularly interesting until the HD is already approaching the epic boundary. The wyrmling can have a +0, cuz they still have room to try to build something. But beyond that I'm reasonably comfortable giving every dragon of every type (except steel or anything really weird I'm not aware of) a -0 for every age category past the first. Dragons are HD bloated - it's one of their defining features.

[Morphic tide]

Your fighter buddy may not have wings (unless he bought some) but his full plate is comparable to your armor.
The dragon can wear armor too! This is a recurring issue in these threads, people seem to constantly look at the monster statblock and assume that's the PC you're playing, but it's not. You get the full suite of chargen resources, you can select feats as desired, you can buy anything anyone else can even if quite a bit has markups, and there's the frequent ignoring of how much of quite a few perfectly playable builds are dedicated to aping monster math rather poorly.

One to three levels (mainly Martial Adepts), basic WBL uses, and a Sovereign Archetype gets the damage output to "Actionable Threat", basic WBL brings to "Basically Immortal Without Specifically Countering Them" disturbingly easily (you can even get a good Touch AC!), and a large Fly speed plus Astral travel give many, many options in actual gameplay where being able to get places you aren't supposed to be while having good combat numbers is plenty enough to start derailments. "Surprise Not-Quite-Clericzilla Dragon In Medium Mithral" can mess up all sorts of things.

Put me down for Wyrmling +1, Very Young and Young +0, rest -0. Not enough room to be flashy for the latter two, but it takes very few levels of Martial Adept classes to get damage on track, and LA +1 doesn't mess that up. Which is there because Plane Shift takes a 9th level Cleric (or, more relevantly, Favored Soul, as "small selection of campaign-warping powers and still fine otherwise" like I'm worried of this is the very definition of t2), so the 8th level Wyrmling is early in provoking that specific change and its rather lengthy downstream side-effects.

For reference, here's a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)) of a guy vigorously crowbarring the giant official LAs into passable build stubs with varying levels of cheese, which usually results in worse "dead" ECL than people are complaining about here. Dragons have quite a bit of stuff available to push past their base statblock, Wyrm of War in particular clears a lot of ground in Martial terms, giving Simple and Martial weapon proficiencies and Armor proficiencies, no mention of lacking shields. So yeah, even without getting to the class level you can have a basic beatstick with the Astral shenanigans still online.

[Troacctid]

The dragon can wear armor too! This is a recurring issue in these threads, people seem to constantly look at the monster statblock and assume that's the PC you're playing, but it's not. You get the full suite of chargen resources, you can select feats as desired, you can buy anything anyone else can even if quite a bit has markups, and there's the frequent ignoring of how much of quite a few perfectly playable builds are dedicated to aping monster math rather poorly.

One to three levels (mainly Martial Adepts), basic WBL uses, and a Sovereign Archetype gets the damage output to "Actionable Threat", basic WBL brings to "Basically Immortal Without Specifically Countering Them" disturbingly easily (you can even get a good Touch AC!), and a large Fly speed plus Astral travel give many, many options in actual gameplay where being able to get places you aren't supposed to be while having good combat numbers is plenty enough to start derailments. "Surprise Not-Quite-Clericzilla Dragon In Medium Mithral" can mess up all sorts of things.

Put me down for Wyrmling +1, Very Young and Young +0, rest -0. Not enough room to be flashy for the latter two, but it takes very few levels of Martial Adept classes to get damage on track, and LA +1 doesn't mess that up. Which is there because Plane Shift takes a 9th level Cleric (or, more relevantly, Favored Soul, as "small selection of campaign-warping powers and still fine otherwise" like I'm worried of this is the very definition of t2), so the 8th level Wyrmling is early in provoking that specific change and its rather lengthy downstream side-effects.

For reference, here's a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)) of a guy vigorously crowbarring the giant official LAs into passable build stubs with varying levels of cheese, which usually results in worse "dead" ECL than people are complaining about here. Dragons have quite a bit of stuff available to push past their base statblock, Wyrm of War in particular clears a lot of ground in Martial terms, giving Simple and Martial weapon proficiencies and Armor proficiencies, no mention of lacking shields. So yeah, even without getting to the class level you can have a basic beatstick with the Astral shenanigans still online.
I agree with all of this except the definition of T2. +1, +0, -0 respectively.

[Xanyo]

I considered armor for the dragon, but armoring exotic creatures is difficult and expensive. You're paying way more for any armor you try to get than the fighter is. The humanoid fighter can drop 1,500 on a set of full plate and then consider getting it enchanted with the rest of his cash. The dragon is paying double that, or quadruple if they're large. They wanna dress up in mithril? They better be willing to pay through the nose for just a mundane set.

[danielxcutter]

Doesn’t armor mess with flight though?

[Troacctid]

Armor is an extremely solvable problem.

[Remuko]

Doesn’t armor mess with flight though?

dont think so. as long as theyre not overweight, which with their strength they likely wont be, i dont think it does.

[Beni-Kujaku]

dont think so. as long as theyre not overweight, which with their strength they likely wont be, i dont think it does.

Mounts cannot fly in more than light armor‚ and other creatures cannot fly with medium or heavy load‚ if I'm not mistaken.


Also‚ can psionic dragons even take Sovereign Archetypes? It doesn't really matter for Wyrmling and Very Young‚ but might affect Young's rating.

[Dimers]

Can anyone tell me how the dragon "aims" a trip from the Astral to the Material? Or vice versa, I guess, if the main campaign activity is happening on the Astral. I don't have the Manual of the Planes and I don't see anything applicable in the DMG, PHB or Planar Handbook. If it's like astral caravan, the dragon would pick a destination and arrive 10-1000 miles away, making the ability not useful for anything except Getting The Hell Outta Dodge.

[Morphic tide]

I considered armor for the dragon, but armoring exotic creatures is difficult and expensive. You're paying way more for any armor you try to get than the fighter is. The humanoid fighter can drop 1,500 on a set of full plate and then consider getting it enchanted with the rest of his cash. The dragon is paying double that, or quadruple if they're large. They wanna dress up in mithril? They better be willing to pay through the nose for just a mundane set.
That's going to be 16,800 GP for a breastplate for a Young Ectoplasmic Dragon. +4 in Enhancement on armor or shields is 16,000 GP. Note that if the Humanoid has a +5 Necklace of Natural Armor, the Dragon can go completely without to save 50,000 GP, spend 16,000 of that to match enhancement, and proceed to still be taking less than half the damage because they still have +8 Natural Armor over the standard Humanoid and have +5 total from Dexterity because they have 34,000 GP left to spend and have a +4 racial bonus no matter how big they get, so assigning a 12 to Dexterity (which would have a non-Dex-bonus humanoid get their +1) means they can get to 20 Dex on 16,000 GP for +4 from their "native" +16, leaving 18,000 GP to spare.

End result of this potential difference in defense spending being -3 Armor, +8 Natural Armor, and +4 Dexterity bonuses to AC, leaving the Dragon at +12 AC ahead of the Humanoid with some leftovers to put towards damage. +12 AC breaks things. It's the difference between 90% accuracy and 30%, between being missed only on 1s and 2s of the first swing and first iteratives needing a natural 20 to hit. To reliably hurt this thing on its normal AC, you have to make the standard humanoid worthless. And the humanoid's got less Touch AC so going after that only screws them harder!

It gets much worse if we compare Swordsages. Because then both are obligatorily in Light armor, reducing the Mithral cost to just 4,000 GP, and the Dragon gets to really flex having wide bonuses by being able to one-up literally everything Discipline Focus is doing with its racial modifiers and Wyrm of War. Though it's very touchy for Insightful Strike, while +12 Strength is a lot, getting 22 Wis is pretty trivial at level 15 (for that critical first Swordsage level), but then Swordsages can also focus Str or Dex for accuracy.

It is, best I can tell, literally entirely on 5th vs. 8th level Maneuvers and damage-focused gear. With all the other advantages, and the infamy of Martial hyper-dipping with ToB and Barbarian levels? Seems a decent enough tradeoff, "the DM has to fundamentally invalidate multiple normal classes of Martial to deal with me" is pretty standard high-tier fare. The reason I'm taking the Astral travel ability as a big enough deal to compare to Scry Or Die is that they can, in contradiction to the normal way it works, "flip" between Astral and Material anywhere in either.

How locations relate with this is up to the DM, because there's Big Points made that they do not perfectly correspond. But for it to be particularly worth mentioning, they have to have some awareness of what's on the other side. Otherwise there'd be a Big Point made about it being a last resort because they're taking a big gamble on what the output location will be. And even with that strange risk, they're not incapable of stealth to scout out the Astral topography as needed to figure out how to get to their destination.

It's slow, but people love to talk about the Artificer shattering everything about the game with days-long preparations for single-purpose tools, just because it's any single-purpose tool (well, more the bundle of varyingly-broad multi-tools, but the point about being ludicrously pacing dependent to remotely pull off the ridiculousness stands). To say nothing of the fifteen minute adventuring day.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Can anyone tell me how the dragon "aims" a trip from the Astral to the Material? Or vice versa, I guess, if the main campaign activity is happening on the Astral. I don't have the Manual of the Planes and I don't see anything applicable in the DMG, PHB or Planar Handbook. If it's like astral caravan, the dragon would pick a destination and arrive 10-1000 miles away, making the ability not useful for anything except Getting The Hell Outta Dodge.

There is nothing about it anywhere. The ectoplasmic dragon is supposedly made of ectoplasm (comes from the demiplane of Ectoplasm, feels the need to precise that they are immune to Dismiss Ectoplasm...), which is basically the matter the Astral is made of. Other dragons from the astral (basically, the astral dragon from Dragon 344) travel using Planeshift, but they are really not innately made for planar travel, as they could grow sick and die if they travelled too often (astralomitis). On the other hand, Ectoplasmic dragons are said to travel often from their lair in the Astral Plane to the Prime, often to hunt or to find more treasure, which implies that they can both know exactly where they are going (else they wouldn't be able to go back to their lair) and bring items with them. This really seems like an ability based on Gate (although limited to the dragon and its gear) more than on Planeshift.

My headcanon is that, because the dragon is made of ectoplasm, it can modify the ectoplasm around itself to create a very temporary color pool to a location it knows. People can look through a color pool and even around it very quickly, then go through it to travel to the Prime and back again.

[Dimers]

Thanks for the reply. I was afraid someone would say something like that, though. Imma sit this one out; my rating might change based on whether the ability is pinpoint-precise, sorta precise or "10 x d100 miles away" precise.

[ciopo]

May I humbly ask that the Mercane from epic level handbook be reLA'd? It's the one creature from there that would have playable RHD.
Or if it was already done, I missed it in the index files, sorry!

[Beni-Kujaku]

May I humbly ask that the Mercane from epic level handbook be reLA'd? It's the one creature from there that would have playable RHD.
Or if it was already done, I missed it in the index files, sorry!

We haven't gone over the Epic Level Handbook yet, only MM1, MM3, ToB, FF, Libris Mortis, EPH, HoH and currently MM6 (compilation of online monsters). We will get to it when we get to it, but I believe, considering the overall quality of other monsters, that it will not be people's first choice.

If you want to play it, then ask your DM if around LA+2 (maybe +1 or even +0 but being conservative is always best) is good. There are two problematic things with the Mercane, it's that enormous SR (you're basically immune to spells of your level) and Telepathy (for mindsight). The rest is subpar, even with such great stats on an Outsider), and Plane Shift, as useful as it is, isn't that great as a 1/day, and it is also pretty hard to advance.

Edit: also, if the dragon does know where it is going when it planeswalk, then change my rating to Troacctid's W:+1, VY:+0, higher: -0

[Tzardok]

The Mercane is also in the Manual of the Planes, so the chance that we'll get to it is higher (I believe that the Epic Level Handbook is likely to be one of the last books we'll look at).

[Dalmosh]

Probably more one for Afro's thread but...

Specific locations are less useful as a concept on the Astral Plane, because, while it is coterminous with the Prime, and mostly empty, the distances between two astral locations are largely subjective. Since it's a transitive plane, I think there's an argument that the writer intended this ability to work a bit like a Ghost's Manifestation ability, but that becomes much messier with the Astral.

So, while the dragon might have a lair somewhere fixed and permanent, like on a Dead God, the further it travels away from this point on the Material, the more distant it would be on the Astral as well due to the coterminous nature of the Astral. However, the nature of the Astral makes covering such a distance in Material Plane terms fairly subjective as well. MotP makes it clear that the abstract nature of the Astral means that a location one is "very familiar with" always takes 2d6 hours to reach by mentally willing yourself through the Silver Sea.

So I think I would rule...
Dragon's lair corresponds to a fixed physical location on the Prime.
Travelling out of sight of this location means that you will then just zip back and forth between your current Prime location and a blank area of the Silver Sea which you then "know" as the spot corresponding to that area of the Prime.
It always takes a minimum of 2d6 hours (from your point of view) to travel through the Astral between such locations, no matter how far away they are from one another in physical space on the Material, usually this will take "longer" though, as areas that one has, for example, only "seen casually", take d4x10 hours to reach.

However, the Astral is also timeless, so from the objective point of view of your adventuring party, effectively, you teleport anywhere around the world infinitely, and instantaneously, taxed only against a 4% chance of encounters per astral "hour", most of which you can instantly escape by just zipping back to the Material. That said, zipping back to the Material (unless you have the Colour Pool ability Beni-Kujaku suggests above), may kill you instantly if you pop out inside solid rock. The Astral lacks the Material analogue terrain that the other Transitive Plains have to allow you to do this more safely.

I don't play very optimised games, but I think that needs an Asterisk.

[Tzardok]

The Astral is not completely timeless, just in regard to very specific processes (namely, all biology). Natural healing, aging, hunger, thirst, tiredness, disease and poison don't progress there, but if you travel on March the 3rd to the Astral and spend a month there, you'll return on April the 3rd. Otherwise the Githyanki would be constantly invading from our perspective, while building up an army every century from their perspective.

[Dalmosh]

In that case, it's a fairly flavourful ability that is powerful without being game-breaking.

I think the travel speeds in MotP are useful metrics to use to keep it sensible.

[Debatra]

Plus we've rated a bunch of creatures with at-will self-only Greater Teleport, which that "truly timeless" interpretation would just be a more complicated version of if it worked like that.

And even if those abilities weren't self-only (or if sticking the party into a bag of holding works), it probably wouldn't be asterisk-worthy. Intra-planar travel is a non-issue, you'd trivialize any races against the clock, and you could escape any non-dimension-locked encounter that went badly as long as you can get everyone into one spot to join hands, and probably a few other things I don't care to think of at the moment; but high-level play usually means reaching the point of teleportation being more common anyway. That just removes the cap on how often you can do it. Game-altering perhaps, but it won't break everything.

While I'm here, the votes so far, up to 179:

+0 W, -0 all others - remetagross, Beni-Kujaku, Xanyo
+1 W, +0 VY, -0 all others - loky1109, Beni depending on precise targeting of Planar Travel
+1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others - Morphic tide, Troacctid, Caelestion

Unfortunately, the targeting is not even vague. Just unmentioned. The entire text of the ability, for those who go purely by my descriptions:

Planar Travel (Su): Ectoplasmic dragons have the innate ability to pass instantly between the Material Plane and the Astral Plane as a standard action.

[liquidformat]

So AFB right now but what I can remember for every 3(?) levels you are forced to increase an age category for a true dragon correct? In that case I believe all dragons should be -0 and we should go back and change the others to be -0 too. It literally makes them unplayable in anything but a one shot game where you aren't going to make those three levels...

[Tzardok]

IIRC it's every three racial hd, not every three levels.

[liquidformat]

IIRC it's every three racial hd, not every three levels.

As I recall there are some very weird restrictions to how many class levels you can take as well, like if you have x number of class levels you have 3 rhd and an age category forced onto you?

I will have to go back and read through Drac but I do remember reading something like that and scratching my head over how game breaking dragons are to use for characters...

[Beni-Kujaku]

IIRC it's every three racial hd, not every three levels.

Yes, it's only advancing racial RHD which increase age categories. However, you're supposed to spend three to five levels advancing RHD every few years to have the right age category for your age.

[loky1109]

+1 W, +0 VY, -0 all others
It's mine.

[Caelestion]

If you have 25 years in-game to go from Wyrmling to Juvenile, I think your GM can handle juggling variant LAs!

I'm happy to go with +1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others.

[Metastachydium]

So AFB right now but what I can remember for every 3(?) levels you are forced to increase an age category for a true dragon correct? In that case I believe all dragons should be -0 and we should go back and change the others to be -0 too. It literally makes them unplayable in anything but a one shot game where you aren't going to make those three levels...

Also, even if that were the case, the most that would warrant is an asterisk of the "ignore this equine faeces to keep things playable" sort.

[Debatra]

Sorry about the delay, folks. Calling it as +1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others. This also marks our first non-Wyrmling dragon to avoid a -0.

Next on the docket is... ****, another Dragon. Typing up that last one was painful.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Sorry about the delay, folks. Calling it as +1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others. This also marks our first non-Wyrmling dragon to avoid a -0.

Next on the docket is... ****, another Dragon. Typing up that last one was painful.

Cheer up! At least it's the last one! I mean, except the revised Mist, Mercury and Steel dragons.

[Debatra]

Obsidian Dragon (https://web.archive.org/web/20200314182845/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030124b)
https://i.imgur.com/uBXY34a.png

Size & Type: Small-Gargantuan Dragon (Fire)
Space/Reach: Presumably normal for its size.
HD: 7 (Small, Wyrmling), 10 (Medium, Very Young), 13 (Medium, Young), 16 (Large, Juvenile), 19 (Large, Young Adult), 22 (Huge, Adult), 25 (Huge, Mature Adult), 28 (Huge, Old), 31 (Huge, Very Old), 34 (Gargantuan, Ancient), 37 (Gargantuan, Wyrm), 40 (Gargantuan, Great Wyrm)
Speed: 40', Burrow 20', Swim 20', Fly 100' (Average) (Wyrmling), Fly 150' (Poor) (Very Young - Very Old), Fly 200' (Clumsy) (Ancient - Great Wyrm)

Ability Scores (Wyrmling): Str +2, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +4, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +4, two penalties
Ability Scores (Very Young): Str +4, Dex +0, Con +4, Int +6, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +10, two penalties
Ability Scores (Young): Str +6, Dex +0, Con +4, Int +8, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +18, no penalties
Ability Scores (Juvenile): Str +8, Dex +0, Con +6, Int +10, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +28, no penalties
Ability Scores (Young Adult): Str +12, Dex +0, Con +8, Int +12, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +36, no penalties
Ability Scores (Adult): Str +16, Dex +0, Con +10, Int +14, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +48, no penalties
Ability Scores (Mature Adult): Str +18, Dex +0, Con +10, Int +16, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +52, no penalties
Ability Scores (Old): Str +20, Dex +0, Con +12, Int +18, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +62, no penalties
Ability Scores (Very Old): Str +22, Dex +0, Con +12, Int +20, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +66, no penalties
Ability Scores (Ancient): Str +24, Dex +0, Con +14, Int +22, Wis +8, Cha +8 - Net +76, no penalties
Ability Scores (Wyrm): Str +26, Dex +0, Con +16, Int +24, Wis +8, Cha +8 - Net +82, no penalties
Ability Scores (Great Wyrm): Str +28, Dex +0, Con +16, Int +26, Wis +10, Cha +10 - Net +90, no penalties

Natural Armor: Age Category RHD-1. I'm not listing them all after that monster of an ability score chart.
Natural Weapons: Standard True Dragon lineup. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)
Skill List: Appraise (one free rank/HD... but is not actually noted as a class skill), Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device
Body Shape: Dragon
Speech (Languages): Yes (Draconic) (Not noted, but is true for all True Dragons.)
CR: 3-25
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0 (Wyrmling), -0 (Very Young+)

There are a few similarities to the Ectoplasmic Dragon; such as psionics instead of magic, and the ability to travel across planes. This one can pass between the Material and the Inner Planes.

Also like the Ectoplasmic, the Obsidian has basically-irrelevant Psi Resistance and manifests as a Psion who chose Metacreativity as its discipline. Its ML starts at 1 when the Dragon becomes Young, then increases by two for each age category. It has DR/magic, but it actually goes up to /+2 starting at Very Old. I'm not really sure about DR conversions off the top of my head, but I seriously doubt it can save an 18 RHD Dragon from the -0 pile. Its Breath Weapon is a standard cone of fire, dealing 2d10 per age category.

It gets a few PLAs as it ages. Young: Firefall, Juvenile: Biofeedback, Young Adult: Burning Ray, Adult: Whitefire, Mature Adult: Wall of Ectoplasm, Old: Ectoplasmic Armor, Very Old: Flaming Shroud, Ancient: Plane Shift, Wyrm: Mind Store, Great Wyrm: Genesis. Each are 3/day, except for the last two which are 1/day. Saves are... "appropriate ability modifier"-based, so unfortunately default to Char-... Actually, I can't find any rule that gives a default ability for Psi-Likes to be based on.

Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.

[Thurbane]

Imma sit this one out - I struggle with dragons and their age categories in terms of playability at the best of times; throw psionics into the mix, and I don't feel informed enough to vote.

^^ Rinse and repeat.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Compared to a Bronze dragon, this has one more RHD, -6 in both Wis and Cha, and a worse breath weapon, but the ability to freely travel the planes (or, at least, freely travel to the Inner Planes and then back again, because no one in the party nor most equipments can withstand the inner planes if they are brought out of the Bag of Holding). That's basically an ectoplasmic dragon with worse stats and a worse choice of planar travel. Still, that's a demon-like Greater Teleport, and I think the Wyrmling should get LA+0 for that. -0 for the rest.

The fact that it has Planeshift as an SLA explicitates at least that its innate ability to travel planes is not the same one, and its tactics imply that it definitely can't bring other people with it, since it states Plane Shift as the most interesting option to transport enemies to the Plane of Fire.


Edit: Also, Thurbane, there is a typo in the second page of your MM6. Dragon of the Great Game appears in MM5, not MM4.

[liquidformat]

Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.

3.0 Psions had different primary ability score depending on which discipline they used. Given that all psions now use intelligence there might be an argument that they should use intelligence for their PLAs...

Honestly this doesn't seem much different than any of the wyrmling to very young chromatic dragons and is worse than white wyrming so I am comfortable with -0 for all.

[danielxcutter]

These would honestly be interesting enemies due to psion powers, especially since it'd be a Shaper... though I'm not sure it'd be worth it, due to the lack of Scintillating Scales.

[Tzardok]

Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.

Yep, vulnerability to an energy worked differently. It was double damage on a failed save, normal damage on a successful save, instead of +50% in both cases.

[remetagross]

This dragon looks really nice! But its stat modifiers are a little disappointing. Yeah, I think I'm going to go with Beni-Kujaku assessment on this one: put me down for LA+0 for the wyrmling and LA-0 for all the other age categories.

[Debatra]

Two votes for +0 W and -0 for the rest, one vote for -0 to all.

...Anything else to talk about here, or shall we move on?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'd like to talk about Monster Mash (in my sig) having the builds revealed. If any of you wants to come and judge them‚ it would be greatly appreciated! :)


Oh you meant about the Obsidian dragon? Then no‚ nothing more. Except you forgot to put the link to the article in your presentation

[remetagross]

Let's move on. These two dragons are cute but ultimately not that different from regular dragons as far as being a PC is concerned.

[Debatra]

Yeah, sorry about that. No real excuse, I've just really been letting things go more than I should have lately.

+0 W and -0 for the rest, next up is the Dragon Newt.

[Debatra]

Dragon Newt (https://web.archive.org/web/20211030045833/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20030920a)
https://i.imgur.com/QJb0s31.png

Size & Type: Small Animal (Aquatic)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 1, 2 (Medium)
Speed: 20', Swim 30'
Ability Scores: Str -4, Dex +6, Con +0, Int -8, Wis +2, Cha -2 - Net -6, three penalties
Natural Armor: 1
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d4)
Skill List: Hide (+3 racial), Move Silently (+3 racial), Spot (+3 racial), Swim
Body Shape: Lizard
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

So these are heavily implied to be amphibious ("just as comfortable out of the water as in it"), but are not explicitly so. They have Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat, which helps with their acidic spit.

Said spit has a range increment of 10', dealing 1d4 acid damage on a successful ranged touch attack. Their saliva is also venomous, forcing a Con-based fortitude save vs 1d4 Str damage for both primary and secondary damage. Why this doesn't also work with their bite is beyond me. Their skin secretes this venom as well, exposing anything that hits it with an unarmed strike or natural weapon.

There is also a psionic version, identical to the above except for being a Magical Beast instead of an Animal. And yes, identical here also means Animal Intelligence. In addition to Attack/Defense modes that we still aren't sure how to convert to 3.5; it can manifest Burst, Catfall, and Spider Climb each three times per day as a first-level Psion. Same number of RHD too, so there's no reason to not be Psionic if able since you get a bigger HD, the same saves, full BAB and 60' Darkvision. (Though unless you really want that second RHD to become Medium, you'll just trade out the one you have for a class level.)

Not much to them, but they're a 1-RHD creature (unless you want to be Medium). The article also has a section where the Skeleton, Zombie, and Fiendish templates are applied to the Dragon Newt, but those are literally just the base creature with a template.

[Morphic tide]

Put me down for LA +1 Small and LA +0 Medium.

Small is netting +5 to Rays and +6 to AC for little a Cleric, Druid, or Ardent cares about (at least by default), and if we follow monster advancement guidelines Medium should be +0 Strength/+4 Dex/+2 Con, which is a statline that's fine as far as Martial dips go (even just a flat-out Martial, to be honest...), even if Divine-casting archer seems to have basically zero deliberate support.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean, the spit is neat, and +6 Dex could make an okay rogue or swordsage, but I don't feel like this balances having -8 Int and not having arms (a thumbless rogue is really not the best thing either). Not by a long shot. Except if there's something I missed, I will vote LA-0 for the non-psionic version. Adding a few psionic powers isn't much, by I think it gives it some interest. At least enough that LA+0 may be justified.

[Tzardok]

So these are heavily implied to be amphibious ("just as comfortable out of the water as in it"), but are not explicitly so.

The amphibious trait didn't exist in 3.0 and was added later. See also skum not having the amphibious trait and air-breathing water-dwelling creatures like crocodiles and whales having the aquatic subtype.

[remetagross]

@Morphic Tide I can't agree here. The Str, Int and Cha penalties mean only the most minmaxed of Wis-based casters or archers will agree to take such a race. And even then, the nice swim speed is counterbalanced by an annoying 20ft land speed, the racial modifiers to skills are made void by the huge Int penalty that prevents any hope of investing into more than 1 skill, and you can barely hold a leather armour before succumbing to medium encumbrance. Granted, the medium version holds its own a little better, but then you can't swap these two annoying animal RHDs and the ability modifiers aren't worth that.

I think I'm going with LA+0 for the small version, and LA-0 for the medium version.

[Debatra]

Okay, for the sake of the people voting separately on Medium, I just want to point out that that's not a separate entry. I've just tried getting into the habit lately of listing the RHD you need to increase a size category since it's sometimes a low enough increase to be relevant (like if something is focused as a grappler).

[H_H_F_F]

I'm voting +0 for both. It's a good race, but not +1 good, not with that body shape. The PLA's don't make much of a difference, IMV.

[Troacctid]

The acid venom makes this an attractive choice for a rogue, with the PLAs offering some nice synergy with things rogues like to do. I don't think you really need hands if you're planning to build around your spittle attack, so the body shape is IMO not a huge problem. And that sort of build is also naturally dumping Strength, so the penalty there isn't a problem either. The way I see it, the main drawback here is the Int and Cha penalties. Losing those skill points hurts, and negatives to casting stats cuts off potential spellcasting rogue builds.

Looking back at similar animals from MM1, most of these tiny guys with this sort of statline ended up at +0 or -0. With that as the baseline, I can agree with +0 here. Even as a rogue, it's hard to fathom picking this over a flying animal such as the bat, hawk, or eagle. The poison spittle isn't that good, and most of the PLAs here are just poor imitations of flight.

[loky1109]

I vote +0 for all.

[Tzardok]

I think I agree with +0.

[Thurbane]

I'm giving a tentative +0 for the non-psionic, and +1 for the psionic version.

[Debatra]

Non-Psionic:
+1 - Morphic tide,
+0 - remetagross, H_H_F_F, Troacctid, loky1109, Tzardok, Thurbane
-0 - Beni-Kujaku,

Psionic:
+1 - Morphic tide, Thurbane
+0 - Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, H_H_F_F, Troacctid, loky1109, Tzardok

Looks like +0 for both. Next up is the Dreamfane.

[Debatra]

Dreamfane (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729144952/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20070711a)
https://i.imgur.com/T7Epxwx.png
Hanging against the stars like some giant bird or fabulous insect,
this creature's diaphanous body looks like it was woven from gauze and spiderwebs.
Twelve luminous eyes twist kaleidoscopically within its body,
and as you catch their gaze the world around you seems to shift and change.
...Yeah, best I got.

Size & Type: Large Fey (Incorporeal, Psionic)
Space/Reach: 10'/5'
HD: 11, 23 (Huge)
Speed: Fly 50' (Perfect) (...Noted as being six squares. Ugh.)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +6, Cha +8 - Net +18, one penalty
Natural Armor: N/A
Natural Weapons: One Primary Incorporeal Touch (Sleep)
Skill List: Concentration, Knowledge (Local), Listen, Spot
Body Shape: Indeterminate
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 9
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

DR 5/cold iron, immunity to mind-affecting, Power Resistance 21 (which is actually pretty good for this level), and the ability to see even in magical darkness cap off a decent chassis. Also, you have undefined fast healing and regeneration. No listed numbers or way to bypass the regen (or is that a 3.0 thing?).

So, first thing's first: You are very difficult to permanently kill. If you would "die" while in the physical world, you simply fall back into the Dreamscape. Though you can be killed there as well, presumably for good this time, this effectively makes you immortal for most practical purposes.

Second, you are undetectable by creatures who do not sleep and dream, even with most enhanced senses. Blindsight, blindsense, scent, and tremorsense are useless, as is the Touchsight power. Psionic True Seeing (and presumably the magical one as well) works though.

You have a 60' gaze attack that forces a Charisma-based will save vs a -4 circumstance penalty to attacks, saves, and skill checks for 1d6 rounds. Notably, there is no 24-hour immunity clause; so this thing goes off every round, and of course there's nothing that says the save penalty doesn't also apply to the gaze attack itself. The downside of course being that it's a regular gaze attack and not the kind you have to target as a standard action that we see occasionally. So your friends will want some kind of protection from that. (Of course, being unable to perceive you by being an Elf, Undead, etc works... while having its own problems.)

Your touch sends victims to sleep, with another Charisma-based will save to avoid it. This works as a Sleep spell (ugh), except with no HD limit (oh, okay then), and lasts until the victim is forced awake instead of only a few minutes.

Finally, you have a handful of Psi-Like Abilities, all but one being at ML9. DCs appear to be Charisma-based.
At-Will: Brain Lock (any non-mindless), Concealing Amorpha, Crisis of Breath (any non-mindless)
3/day: Dispel Psionics (+17 bonus... And I'm pretty sure that's a typo there and that 20 is supposed to say "dispel check 1d20" instead of just "dispel check 20"... but if this think automatically counts as nat-20ing its dispel checks, that would be more than a little nuts), Dream Travel (ML13, self only)
1/day: Death Urge

[Tzardok]

Also, you have undefined fast healing and regeneration. No listed numbers or way to bypass the regen (or is that a 3.0 thing?).


This is a 3.5 creature. Notice the annoying late 3.5 stat block and the lack of psionic attack/defense modes. This to me simply is a sign of an unfinished creature.

[Troacctid]

What a weird creature. I think it would be a great support character, though—it's hard to kill, and it boasts some reasonably potent disruptive abilities. It should be easy for it to slide into some supporty prestige class like heartfire fanner and fill the role of a beguiler-esque debuffer. I think +0 is probably fine.

[loky1109]

I vote +2 here.

[H_H_F_F]

Finally, you have a handful of Psi-Like Abilities, with only one of them having a listed ML, meaning the rest default to 9.

Wouldn't it be 11?

[Tzardok]

No, the ML of the Psi-Like abilities is listed as 9 (except for dream travel).

[H_H_F_F]

Gotcha. I was confused by the word "default" there.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Incorporeal, SoL touch, long distance travel, mass debuff, an incredibly good dispel for its level, mind-affecting immunity, and a few niche bonuses, including a weird immunity that may or may not mean that you can't be resurrected and stay for several days unable to act in the Dreamscape as you slowly heal to full. Much to love, not much to hate. Is it enough to balance the bad body shape and the bad ability scores? I... don't think so. But then you have Dream Phase. You can't be detected by Undead, Constructs, Elementals, non-native Outsiders, Plants or Oozes. That's fantastic! Most of your innate abilities don't work on these types, but that's the difference between a regular monster and a PC. The PC can have other abilities and kill these enemies with no problem, or just use Death Urge. It's not great for the rest of the party, but I kinda don't want to allow this kind of impunity below ECL 11 or 12. I'll go with LA +1.

[Thurbane]

Usual disclaimer about my lack of psionics knowledge... (also, insert rant about the later 3.5 stat blocks).


Large Fey (incoporeal)
11 HD
Fly 50 ft (perfect)
Cha as deflection bonus to AC
Fast healing, regeneration: undefined. Impossible to rate, and in likelihood, the DM would be within rights to say they don't exist. For me, I'd probably rule fast healing 5, regeneration 5 overcome by cold iron.
Immune mind-affecting: nice defence for anyone.
DR 5/cold iron
PR 21
Dream phase: only visible to creatures that can sleep and dream.
Sleep Touch: sleep effect unlimited by HD. Save is Cha based.
Dream gaze: gaze attack that inflicts -4 on attacks, save and skill checks for 1d6 rounds. Save is Cha based.
See in Darkness: see through all kinds of darkness.
PLAs: not well versed, but seems like a decent array of low-mid power PLAs. Looks like it might struggle against mindless foes.
Str --, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +6, Cha +8
Relatively small racial skill list.

This seems to make for a pretty decent CR 9 encounter, but not sure how it stacks up as a PC. No languages listed, unless I'm missing something? You seem to get decent attacks and definitely solid defences. Incorporealness is a mixed bag: great for defence, but makes interacting with things difficult at times.

I'm going to tentatively agree with +1, but again, my grasp on the PLAs involved aren't that great.

I'd be interested in home-brewing a non-psionic version for my own game, and swapping out the PLAs for similar themed SLAs.

[Tzardok]

I'm going to tentatively agree with +1, but again, my grasp on the PLAs involved aren't that great.

I'd be interested in home-brewing a non-psionic version for my own game, and swapping out the PLAs for similar themed SLAs.

You wanna an overwiew what those powers exactly do?

Edit:

IBut then you have Dream Phase. You can't be detected by Undead, Constructs, Elementals, non-native Outsiders, Plants or Oozes.
Outsiders are able to sleep, they just don't need to, and the description of the dream travel power states that they have dreams (even if they are not easy to navigate).

[remetagross]

Kudos to the author, this monster's concept is very cool. An incorporeal fey? I think that's a first to me.

Where does this guy go? I suppose Ardent is the usual answer, what with the Wis bonus, and it evens fits the psionic fluff of the monster. Plus, picking the right ideals can orient you towards a certain sort of "dream". The dude is unkillable, and has nasty abilities against those who actually can detect it. The problem of friendly fire with the gaze attack can be solved with the Narrowed Gaze feat from Serpent Kingdoms that allows you to choose to set your gaze attack into "active only" mode. The infiltration and concealment abilities put a Rogue of equal level to shame (to creatures that can see you, just hide in the ground). The one downside is the trouble for handling equipment. Communication is easily solved through one or the other way of acquiring telepathy.

I cannot see this monster not having an LA. Let's say LA +2. This is a very strong package.

[Debatra]

Wouldn't it be 11?


No, the ML of the Psi-Like abilities is listed as 9 (except for dream travel).


Gotcha. I was confused by the word "default" there.

Actually, that was me managing to accidentally be right due to the combination of later 3.5e statblocks sucking (so I didn't notice the general ML) and somehow getting their HD and CR mixed up (so I thought the "unlisted" MLs defaulted to their HD, which I got wrong). It's fixed. :smallredface:


an incredibly good dispel for its level

To be fair, that's just how Dispel Psionics works. It starts off just being Psionic Dispel Magic, with the dispel check being 1d20+ML, capped at 10. But then you can augment your bonus by pumping more points into it. Combined with an apparent lack of Greater Dispel Psionics (at least in d20SRD.org) and it appears this is trying to take both roles. Any ML9 character can get that bonus, it's just that having i as a PLA means not having to spend those points.


But then you have Dream Phase. You can't be detected by Undead, Constructs, Elementals, non-native Outsiders, Plants or Oozes. That's fantastic!

Don't forget Elves. There are more than enough of those to be effective. (Also, Outsiders do sleep.)


No languages listed, unless I'm missing something?

Yep. "Languages --", right under the initiative and senses.

[danielxcutter]

You can't counterspell with Dispel Psionics, but you can't do that with SLAs anyways.

[H_H_F_F]

This is very good, but I'm worried about progression. Martial is a hard sell, losing that many manifester/caster levels is a hard sell. For thise voting for LA +2 - what would an ECL 20 version of this (with 7 class levels) look like, in your opinion?

[Metastachydium]

Kudos to the author, this monster's concept is very cool. An incorporeal fey? I think that's a first to me.

Well, off the top of my head there's the joystealer in MM4 and (I think) something weird in MM2 (because of course). More to the point, I'm kind of with H_H_F_F on this. Yes, this is way cool. Yes, this is effectively unkillable (even though this probably makes bringing it back from the "dead" more rather than less complicated). But where does it go from there? Worse yet, It's essentially a one trick pony against what? Six types out of 15 (not counting deathless)? It's offensive PLAs are all mind-affecting and immunity to sleep effects is ridiculously common.

[Tzardok]

I think it is no more or less unkillable than devils or demons are, who after all reform on their homeplane if killed elsewhere (see FC 1 and 2). The fluff is the same, with no mechanics given, so I'm not sure it should go into the LA.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Worse yet, It's essentially a one trick pony against what? Six types out of 15 (not counting deathless)? It's offensive PLAs are all mind-affecting and immunity to sleep effects is ridiculously common.

That's the point. All creatures natively immune to mind-affecting (except Vermin and weird things like the boneleaf or the shedu) do not sleep, and hence can't hurt it back. It is a two-trick pony with the two being almost exactly complementary to each other. Honestly, an Ardent with Practiced Manifester or a Swordsage can get up to 4th level powers or maneuvers quite easily and dish out touch-ranged death on these guys with no way for them to strike back. And for the rest, well. Death Urge is a good power, and you have other quite good SLAs, even if you don't want to just put them to sleep. Or, in the case of a mind-affecting immune creature who can sleep, you can still make a great job helping your teammates by dispelling whatever they try to do.

After looking, in all reviewed creatures (not counting the Dream Phane itself), there are only 9 non-vermin creatures who can sleep but are immune to mind-affecting effects. That's really not that much.



I think it is no more or less unkillable than devils or demons are, who after all reform on their homeplane if killed elsewhere (see FC 1 and 2). The fluff is the same, with no mechanics given, so I'm not sure it should go into the LA.

I agree with that. "Not killed but stuck on another plane until it recovers" is not much better than "soul-bound so that it can't be resurrected"

[Thurbane]

You wanna an overwiew what those powers exactly do?.

That would be very useful, thank you.

[ixrisor]

That would be very useful, thank you.

Brain lock: dazes a creature for concentration + 1 round, will negates

Concealing amorpha: 20% concealment, basically psionic blur

Crisis of breath: forces a creature to take standard actions to breathe, if they don’t they have to make fort saves to avoid dropping to 0. Will negates.

Dispel psionics: just like dispel magic

Dream travel: like shadow walk

Death urge: forces a creature to spend the next round trying to kill itself as effectively as possible, will negates

[Tzardok]

That would be very useful, thank you.

Then I will do that and also give my thoughts regarding what spells could replace them in a non-psionic version of the creature.

Concealing amorpha grants the user concealment, similiar to the blurr spell. Dispel psionics is of course the psionic counterpart to dispel magic or greater dispel magic. Those are the easy ones to replace.

Dream travel is the obligatory power for traveling dreamscapes. Ruleswise, it works like shadow walk, except using dreams instead of the Plane of Shadow, but I don't think that's important for finding a spell that fulfills the same theme. The only spell like that that I could find on a cursory look is dream walk from Heroes of Horror, which works more like planeshift.

The other three powers don't have easy counterparts.

Brainlock prevents the target from casting spells and using powers by dazing it. It has a duration of concentration.
You can propably find an abjuration somewhere that does something similiar ("sunder spell-like" or something like that).

Crisis of breath is a compulsion that forces the target to exhale all air in its lungs. For the duration, the target may choose every round wether it fights the compulsion (allowing it to breath normally for that round) or acts normally (with the risk of suffocation).
There is IIRC a spell that fills the target's lungs with water, but I personally feel that the mind-affecting thing and the "can fight back every round" part is thematically more important than the "can't breath" part, so I wouldn't use that one. Maybe hold monster fits better?

Death urge is a compulsion with a duration of a single round. During the duration, the target chooses the most suicidical course of action available, be that attacking itself, charging a monster or jumping from a cliff.
Thematically I feel that it could be replaced with phantasmal killer as a potentially deadly mind-affecting effect.

[Thurbane]

Thank you.

Hmm, some of those would have pretty clear spell/SLA equivalents, but others not so much.

I ran into similar issues trying to make a non-psionic Caller In Darkness (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613878-3-5-Non-psionic-Caller-In-Darkness).

Updated for Tzardok's post - thank you for the analysis

[Troacctid]

But where does it go from there? Worse yet, It's essentially a one trick pony against what? Six types out of 15 (not counting deathless)? It's offensive PLAs are all mind-affecting and immunity to sleep effects is ridiculously common.
Into a prestige class, presumably. Fey hit dice have enough skill points even with the Int penalty that it shouldn't be too hard. My earlier suggestion was heartfire fanner (with a quick one-level dip to qualify) or something similar. I think a bard-type class makes a lot of sense with what this monster has going on.

[Glimbur]

I chuckle to consider one of these in a party made up of characters that do not sleep and so cannot perceive it. Things just go right for them, until the wizard gets True Seeing and they learn who their mascot is.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Does anybody have anything else to say here? H_H_F_F, have you made your mind?

[H_H_F_F]

I'm voting for LA +0.

[Thurbane]

Could you shoehorn this into a fast progression casting PrC, like Ur-Priest?

Its HD meet the Fort +3 and Will +3 save reqs.

You can take Iron Will and Spell Focus (evil) as feats - although it always feels cheesy to me taking SF when you aren't actually a caster. Iron Will can be gotten through Otyugh Hole, but that feels cheap to me; I know it's kosher at most tables, though.

The skills are the most challenging part: Bluff, Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (planes) are easy enough, albeit as cross-class. Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft will be trickier. K(R) can be gotten using the Knowledge Devotion feat. You could try for the Education feat, but that feels kinda weird on this monster. Spellcraft would probably require Keeper of Forbidden Lore, which has a req of 13+. With a -4 Int penalty, that requires a fair bit of an investment.

So yeah, you can do it, but it requires 4 feats (or 3 + a magical location), and putting 17+ into int. If it were ruled as LA +0 or +1, you'd still get 9th level spells by ECL 20. May still be worth it. The boost to Wis (for spells) and Cha (for rebuking) would be nice.

...then there's the issue of no languages: does this mean it's incapable of speech? That will cause issues with spells that have Verbal components. Item based solutions are going to be difficult for an incorporeal being. Also, the issue of being incorporeal and manipulating spell components etc.

Is it doable? Maybe. Going to require a pretty big build investment.

Just looked here for some ideas about Verbal spells etc. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584837-3-5-Monstrous-Spellcasters

[Beni-Kujaku]

Could we just say as a rule that if nobody posts anything in this thread for 48 hours, we should wrap it up and go to the next creature? At least if it's not a problem of time from Debatra, it's just that I feel like most creatures last for one or 2 days of discussion, and then more than a week of nothing.

[Debatra]

Yeah, I have been rather slow to update lately.

+0 - Troacctid, H_H_F_F
+1 - Beni-Kujaku, Thurbane
+2 - loky1109, remetagross

...Lovely. Averaging it out to +1 then. Next is... a Drider template? Okay then.

[Debatra]

Drider Template (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101150824/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011118a)
https://i.imgur.com/mB8GBVm.png

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any Humanoid
Size & Type: Size increases one category, Type becomes Aberration, lose all Subtypes
Space/Reach: As per new size
Hit Dice: Increased to a minimum based on new size by gaining Aberration RHD. 3 (Small), 4 (Medium), 6 (Large)
Speed: Set to 30', Climb 15'
Ability Scores: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +8, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +18, no penalties
Armor Class: Natural Armor increases to 3 (Small), 4 (Medium), or 6 (Large) if lower.
Skills: +4 to Hide and Move Silently; Class Skills for any gained Aberration RHD are Climb, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Spot.
CR: +2
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2

We gave the original Drider (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21335325&postcount=479) +2. By comparison, the regular Drider gives you +2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +4 Charisma. And of course six effective levels in a casting class. That said, that's a 6-RHD creature whereas this is a template. A template that gives you additional RHD if you don't have enough already is odd, but you can avoid that by already being at least level 3/4/6.

SR 11+HD is always nice, and you don't lose any special abilities. You gain a bite that scales with your size if you didn't already have a better one, and it also delivers Str-damaging poison (which also scales with your size) with a Con-based save (that doesn't scale with size).

You get a handful of 1/day SLAs, each with Charisma-based saves and a CL that scales with your Sorcerer CL (or just CL 1 if you aren't a Sorcerer). Dancing Lights, Darkness, Detect Chaos, Detect Good, Detect Evil, Detect Law, Detect Magic, Faerie Fire, Levitate. Note the absence of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, and Suggestion; which regular Driders also get.

If you already want to be a Cleric, Sorcerer, or Wizard, the regular Drider is probably better for you because it gives better mental stats. Then again, you get to tack your existing racial traits onto this and possibly avoid being Large. For anything else this is probably better by virtue of not locking you into a certain class for those 3/4/6 levels. Overall, call it a mixed bag.

[loky1109]

I'd give it +2.
Maybe less if applies with aberration HD.

[Debatra]

I think this might be a good case for variable LA.

[loky1109]

I think this might be a good case for variable LA.

Ok.
Something like this.
HD LA
+5 -0
+4 -0
+3 -0
+2 0
+1 +1
+0 +2

HD LA
+5 -0
+4 -0
+3 -0
+2 0
+1 +1
+0 +2

[Beni-Kujaku]

I don't feel like this really needs variable LA. Gaining HD if you take the template before you already have 3 to 6 HD is a drawback, but one that is easily solved. I don't think it warrants the final score being less simple and readable.

This is definitely worse than the original drider on a pure sorcerer, but the ability to have actual class features (even a cleric 6 can turn undead and can get acfs that will be worth it compared to losing some mental stats, and dispel magic and suggestion as SLAs), to stack it on top of other classes and to multiclass your drider (also the fact that the SR explicitly scales is great) make up for it in my opinion. LA+2

[Troacctid]

If you assume you always gain HD, instead of only gaining HD if you're low enough level, then I think +2 is fine. But if you can just dodge the HD by not becoming a drider until later, then spending 2 levels to get 6 levels of casting is wildly overpowered and should not be allowed in any universe.

[H_H_F_F]

If you assume you always gain HD, instead of only gaining HD if you're low enough level, then I think +2 is fine. But if you can just dodge the HD by not becoming a drider until later, then spending 2 levels to get 6 levels of casting is wildly overpowered and should not be allowed in any universe.

This template doesn't give casting, as far as I can tell. Just SLAs that key off sorc level for their CL.

I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?

This is a genuine question, by the way, not a rhetorical device.

[Troacctid]

This template doesn't give casting, as far as I can tell. Just SLAs that key off sorc level for their CL.
Oh, I misread the description.

In that case, yes, +2 sounds right. The size increase, spell resistance, and +18 net stats is way too strong for LA +1 even before taking the SLAs into account (and the SLAs don't even account for that much). This seems about on par with the best LA +2 templates in the game.

[Mystic Muse]

I think +2 seems reasonable.

[Remuko]

I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?

agreed with this. +1

[Beni-Kujaku]

This template doesn't give casting, as far as I can tell. Just SLAs that key off sorc level for their CL.

I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?

This is a genuine question, by the way, not a rhetorical device.

A Medium melee fighter (in the broad sense, not just a Fighter) with at least 6 HD? +18 stats is incredibly great (especially since it's mostly physical stats), SR 11+HD and NA+6 will help you tremendously in most situations, and a size increase has far-reaching benefits, including increased reach. The bite attack and SLAs are just icing on the cake. Also you're an aberration, if you want to abuse Alter Self to become a Carrion Crawler. Basically, it's just numbers, but damn are they good numbers.

Compared to a half-fiend, you have definitely worse SLAs and type (but since you're probably taking it with no RHD, the type isn't that impactful), and no DR, but slightly better stats (we like +8 Con), better natural armor, some poison and especially a size increase. I don't argue that it's better than half-fiend, but I don't feel comfortable allowing that for +1.
Basically, look at Spellwarped, which was the low-end of +2, and tell me a size increase (and more stats) would not make the drider better than being able to get +4 Str when a spell fails to pierce your SR.


Also, having the base creatures of the example drider be a hill dwarf and a goblin is so much devoid of any kind of sense that it physically hurts.

[Tzardok]

Spider goblin
Spider goblin
wobbles whatever a spider is wobblin'
:smallbiggrin:

By the way, if a human got this template, would it get an additional boost to Hide? It would after all be a hider. :smalltongue:

[remetagross]

I agree that's an LA+2 - and a reasonably strong one at that. It wouldn't seem absurd to me to tack an LA+3 on this for a low-level environment. The amount of stat increases is immense, the size increase is really useful since it stacks with every other size increase trick (use Hidden Talent for Expansion since you don't qualify for Enlarge Person anymore). So yeah, a great template.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I agree that's an LA+2 - and a reasonably strong one at that. It wouldn't seem absurd to me to tack an LA+3 on this for a low-level environment. The amount of stat increases is immense, the size increase is really useful since it stacks with every other size increase trick (use Hidden Talent for Expansion since you don't qualify for Enlarge Person anymore). So yeah, a great template.

That's the thing, it can't really be put in a low-level environment, considering it's best if you're already Medium and increases your HD to 6

[H_H_F_F]

I guess that the Con+Size+SR makes it +2... Maybe I was too focused on how unimpressive the SLAs were.

[loky1109]

I still think it isn't great if came with extra 5 RHD.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I still think it isn't great if came with extra 5 RHD.

And a Revived Fossil isn't great if you put it on a pixie. And half-troll isn't great if you plan to go full caster. Every template has situations in which it doesn't work, Driderspawn (yeah, I'm not calling these ripoffs driders, they're not even divinely conceived!) doesn't work if the base creature has less than 6 RHD. It doesn't mean we should change the LA to account for everything at once.

[loky1109]

And a Revived Fossil isn't great if you put it on a pixie. And half-troll isn't great if you plan to go full caster. Every template has situations in which it doesn't work, Driderspawn (yeah, I'm not calling these ripoffs driders, they're not even divinely conceived!) doesn't work if the base creature has less than 6 RHD. It doesn't mean we should change the LA to account for everything at once.

Can't agree with you.
Your examples are very different. Revived Fossil and half-troll can be better or worse based on base creature and his classes, Driderspawn is another matter.
Let's look. I make human sorcerer. I want 20 ECL. Let Driderspawn has LA +2.
If I apply template firstly, before first level it will be aberration 6/sorc 12. If I apply it after 6th level it will be sorc 18. Do you see difference? It looks like different templates and results in very different final power. And it's true for every classes, maybe except commoner.