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cupkeyk
2007-11-26, 01:11 PM
From the Wizards Website (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=4)


Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

So yesterday, we were having our weekly gaming session when we tripped upon hilarity. The DM was nice enough to bring our party to a dungeon in Lantan, overrun by rogue constructs. This was an awesome for my character to shine since i was a swift hunter with construct as a favored enemy. Anywho, we came up against a cadaver collector and the Warblade was paralyzed by its breath. The Warblade used Ironheart Surge and escaped being skewered onto its back, but the DM asked to be showed the maneuver card, as he was unfamiliar with it. He asked what the kinds of effects it can overcome and we lolzed our way into rationalizing that Ironheart Surge can beat death. Since death is an effect with a duration of one or more rounds(Revivify? Last breath? Resurrect? death does have a duration, pffft, permanent IS a duration, right?) Yeah we know you have to be able to use a mental action to use this maneuver but was hella funny anyway.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-11-26, 01:16 PM
I think death might technically be an instantaneous effect.

It's meant to work in exactly your situation, when the WB is incapacitated by a status effect. It just so happens to work on everything because of a bug.

tyckspoon
2007-11-26, 01:21 PM
Yup. It's a very poorly written ability; among other oddities, it allows you to turn off an Antimagic Field. Not exempt yourself from its effects, you turn it off completely. Or a Web spell, or a Cloudkill, or a number of other effects that probably weren't intended by the writer.

Incidentally, by the same logic you used for ending 'Death' as a status effect, you can use IHS to efficiently commit suicide. Just pick 'being alive' as the condition you want to end.

Artemician
2007-11-26, 01:24 PM
And the real stupidest thing, is that a Warblade cannot use IHS to shrug off Dominate/Charm.

Think about that for a while people, let it sink in. The most cinematic effect in the book.. A warrior being controlled by the enemy, but driving it off through sheer willpower.

It can't do that, while you can, however, use IHS to end a Blizzard.

cupkeyk
2007-11-26, 01:28 PM
OMG, you can use it to teleport randomly by selecting "being here."

Starbuck_II
2007-11-26, 01:29 PM
Technicaly Charm would work, but not dominate thids is because Charm you are still in control, but just need to know something is effecting you.
However, Dominate you lack control so can't.

Death won't work because you can't perform the standard action neccesary to do so.

....
2007-11-26, 01:30 PM
Why can't you end charm with it?

Is it because you have no control of your actions?

Thats dumb. I'd make a house rule so that if you suceed on a will save or something, you could break free with IHS. (Like, a lower will save than to resist in the first place)

tyckspoon
2007-11-26, 01:31 PM
And the real stupidest thing, is that a Warblade cannot use IHS to shrug off Dominate/Charm.

Think about that for a while people, let it sink in. The most cinematic effect in the book.. A warrior being controlled by the enemy, but driving it off through sheer willpower.

It can't do that, while you can, however, use IHS to end a Blizzard.

Ne? What's preventing you from using IHS on those as well? Under Dominate you could just be ordered not to use the maneuver, but I can't see anything stopping you from using it against Charms. At least mechanically; the 'you consider the caster to be your best friend' stuff might stop a character from wanting to end the spell, but it wouldn't remove his ability to do so.

Kyeudo
2007-11-26, 01:36 PM
To use a manuver, you must be able to move, so IHS doesn't help you if you are paralyzed, stunned, dazed, or otherwise unable to take an action. You can't take actions while dead unless you are working from the strict RAW.

Holocron Coder
2007-11-26, 01:44 PM
To use a manuver, you must be able to move...

Where does that come from? I'm curious, not correcting :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2007-11-26, 01:46 PM
To use a manuver, you must be able to move, so IHS doesn't help you if you are paralyzed, stunned, dazed, or otherwise unable to take an action. You can't take actions while dead unless you are working from the strict RAW.

Paralyzed makes an exception for mental actions, which I think IHS is supposed to be. Dazed and Stunned do not, however, which means that you can't end them with IHS despite that being the *intended* use instead of the insanity of counteracting a weather condition or dispelling a spell effect just because you happen to be standing in it.

Dausuul
2007-11-26, 01:47 PM
Ne? What's preventing you from using IHS on those as well? Under Dominate you could just be ordered not to use the maneuver, but I can't see anything stopping you from using it against Charms. At least mechanically; the 'you consider the caster to be your best friend' stuff might stop a character from wanting to end the spell, but it wouldn't remove his ability to do so.

Yeah, it's the fact that charm keeps you from wanting to end the effect that's the problem. Mechanically you could do it, except your character wouldn't do it because why would you want to turn against your best friend?

Frosty
2007-11-26, 01:49 PM
I believe IHS is just a mental action. Of course, when you're dead, you don't get any actions at all, so that's that.

cupkeyk
2007-11-26, 01:50 PM
Ditto on that source request. I have looked up maneuvers as defined by Counter, Boost and Strike (though IHS is a -).

tainsouvra
2007-11-26, 01:51 PM
Is this the ability that has been interpreted as being able, when used by a creature with light-sensitivity, to extinguish the sun?

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-26, 01:52 PM
Mechanically you could do it, except your character wouldn't do it because why would you want to turn against your best friend?

Because he's a bastard who forgot your birthday?

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-26, 01:53 PM
Hey, IHS to end the planet's gravity!

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-26, 02:19 PM
Oh, I remember this meme from the WotC boards ...


With a roar of effort, I shrug off the status of being vulnerable to pun pun!

tyckspoon
2007-11-26, 02:39 PM
You could possibly also IHS entire planes out of existence, if their conditions are inhospitable to you. The Elemental Planes of Fire and Water would be good candidates.. this would be a good explanation for how the Far Realms and the Nothing that vestiges live in came to be.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-26, 02:46 PM
It's still poorly worded, but you can't take standard actions when you're dead. Okay, I admit, this is a house rule, but if you don't follow this, you don't even need Iron Heart Surge to keep moving, so it's a moot point.

And of course, neither "dead" nor "dying" nor "disabled" is ever technically measured in rounds. There are certain things that happen within X rounds of gaining that status, but the effects themselves are not measured in rounds.

Also, I'm fairly certain that "effect" is a more specific term than you're giving it credit for...

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-26, 03:32 PM
Inhospitable planes do not have a duration.

You can break charm and even dominate so long as the caster doesn't know to tell you not to. This only works if they aren't forcing you to use your standard action every round to do something else, and then only if they don't know to tell you not to use IHS. Even if the DM rules that you can't use IHS on purpose to break the dominate, if you got hit with something else that you would normally break with IHS (such as blindness, etc.), the IHS would also hit the dominate, as it also has a duration (IIRC, IHs gets all effects with a duration). You cannot use IHS to break paralysis, because you cannot use any manuever when you are unable to move.

tainsouvra
2007-11-26, 03:38 PM
You can break charm and even dominate so long as the caster doesn't know to tell you not to. In the case of charm, I would disagree. He regards you as a trusted friend and views all of your actions--including casting the Charm spell on him if he is aware of being enchanted--in the most favorable way. If your trusted friend does something that you regard favorably, why would you intentionally counteract it?

The problem with Charm isn't mechanical, it's motivational. The spell generally causes you to not want to break the spell.

Xefas
2007-11-26, 03:40 PM
Just out of curiosity, what do you think would be a better wording of the ability? One that captures the original intent more effectively?

kjones
2007-11-26, 03:41 PM
Where is this "You need to be able to move in order to use a maneuver" thing coming from? It makes sense in the context of most maneuvers, but IHS and its ilk seem to me to be purely mental actions.

Keld Denar
2007-11-26, 03:48 PM
Where is this "You need to be able to move in order to use a maneuver" thing coming from? It makes sense in the context of most maneuvers, but IHS and its ilk seem to me to be purely mental actions.

Especially considering that without being able to end paralysis and similar effects, there aren't too many other effects that you would really want to end. Maybe slow, since you can still take a standard. Or Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion. Can it work on negative levels? Such as the ones given by undead? Or by Eneveration? Does it work against ability damage? I mean, the list of stuff that this move is suppoed to work against but doesn't is pretty long already, and the list of stuff that is rediculous that it works against is getting longer...

cupkeyk
2007-11-26, 04:17 PM
Ability Penalties, some types of exhaustion/fatigue, cowering, panicked and fear effects from spells.... there is still quite a few.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-26, 04:44 PM
Fear effects can be stopped. Panicked effects cannot-because you can't stop and take actions if you're panicked as you have to flee in the most expedient manner available.

In short, ANY effect that prevents you from taking actions or controls what actions you're taking cannot be stopped by IHS at all.

StickMan
2007-11-26, 05:09 PM
One day wizards will hire some one who can prof read and then we will have nothing to talk about.

cupkeyk
2007-11-26, 05:10 PM
One day wizards will hire some one who can prof read and then we will have nothing to talk about.

it's not the grammar, it's the playability. So they should hire Anal Gamer Language Majors.

Ramos
2007-11-26, 05:46 PM
They should probably hire one of the major powerDMers/ruleslawyers that lurk around here or in the CharOp boards.

AlterForm
2007-11-26, 05:57 PM
They should probably hire one of the major powerDMers/ruleslawyers that lurk around here or in the CharOp boards.

Such is what many have said about balancing 4ed. :smallcool:

deadseashoals
2007-11-26, 07:15 PM
Where is this "You need to be able to move in order to use a maneuver" thing coming from? It makes sense in the context of most maneuvers, but IHS and its ilk seem to me to be purely mental actions.

To everyone who is asking this, yes, it's true, and yes, it's in the book. I'm not going to quote the book because it's copyrighted content - if you have the book, check page 38, under "Initiating Maneuvers and Stances", first sentence of the first paragraph under that heading.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-26, 07:57 PM
It's legal to provide short quotes from copyrighted material for educational or review purposes, by the way, as long as you credit the source. I would think this qualifies as "educational", technically.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-27, 01:58 AM
However, if you don't have the book, how do you expect to meaningfully contribute to a discussion about the book?

Also, he's right- you have to be able to move to use a manuever. If you don't believe us, look it up.

Moving on . . .

I don't think IHS can remove most fatigue/exhaustion effects, as they are effects that do not have a duration. You have to rest for 8 hours to remove them, which is not a duration, IMO.

Why don't we try and put together a list of what IHS can and cannot remove.

Can't:

Paralysis
Flesh to Stone
Charm
Normal Fatigue/Exhaustion
Panicked
Frightened

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-27, 02:42 AM
Actually, you can use it while Frightened if prevented from fleeing, as you must fight normally (at a penalty) under those circumstances.

Anyway,

CAN:
Dominated (if not under direct control, and not specifically ordered not to break out)
Fatigue/Exhaustion with duration, as from Ray of Exhaustion
Shaken
Sickened

Ability drain is iffy, as it doesn't have a listed duration, but fades one point at a time every day. I'm guessing no. Same with Level Drain. Most Poison is in the same boat.

CAN'T:
Nauseated (Move Actions only)
Stunned (No Actions)
Turned (In the case of an Undead Warblade. Which is an awesome idea.)
Unconscious/Sleeping (No Actions)

Hmm...methinks this maneuver might be a little too restricted...it might be in the spirit of things to houserule it so that it can be used without moving (i.e. against Paralysis, but not Stunned) and explicitly allow it to throw off Charms/Compulsions.

Kaelik
2007-11-27, 02:59 AM
Hmm...methinks this maneuver might be a little too restricted...it might be in the spirit of things to houserule it so that it can be used without moving (i.e. against Paralysis, but not Stunned) and explicitly allow it to throw off Charms/Compulsions.

But you are forgetting that it can counteract all sorts of AoE spells. Goodbye AMF, Web, Black Tentacles, ect. Completely negating lots of Battlefield control is pretty useful.

deadseashoals
2007-11-27, 03:16 AM
Does anyone actually play that it can negate area spells? Or the sun? Or "not being Pun-Pun?"

Additionally, another couple of useful and non-questionable conditions to get rid of are blindness (from glitterdust) and ray of enfeeblement, both a perpetual bane to melee classes everywhere.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-27, 03:44 AM
But you are forgetting that it can counteract all sorts of AoE spells. Goodbye AMF, Web, Black Tentacles, ect. Completely negating lots of Battlefield control is pretty useful.

I houserule that IHS can't effect AMF (becuase in my games all manuevers are (su.).

Another houserule that I use is that if IHS negates an effect that covers an area (like web), the effect is only negated for the warblade, and only for one round if he remains in the area. Which also corrects the "vampire warblades blot out the sun with IHS" issue.

Hunter Noventa
2007-11-27, 04:56 AM
The Evil God of Ice casts the Epic Spell "Dread Winter" over the land...

And well, see my sig for the rest if you must.

Aquillion
2007-11-27, 05:17 AM
I read 'duration of 1 or more rounds' to mean 'duration measured in rounds', so spells with, say, minute / level, 10 minutes / level, and so on cannot be dispelled by it. I can't see anything else that that sentence could reasonably be intended to convey -- if they didn't intend to limit it to effects with a duration explictly measured in rounds, why not just say 'any effect with a duration?' It's not as though durations of less than one round come up very often.

Kaelik
2007-11-27, 05:35 AM
I read 'duration of 1 or more rounds' to mean 'duration measured in rounds', so spells with, say, minute / level, 10 minutes / level, and so on cannot be dispelled by it. I can't see anything else that that sentence could reasonably be intended to convey -- if they didn't intend to limit it to effects with a duration explictly measured in rounds, why not just say 'any effect with a duration?' It's not as though durations of less than one round come up very often.

How about instantaneous durations? The sun (which doesn't have a measured duration) or fatigue, or exhaustion. Is there really that big a difference between 1 round per caster level and 10 rounds? No.

And yes I play with it negating AoE effects, or I would houserule that it applies to lots of things it doesn't (stun for example). It has to be useful for something.

As for "Not being Pun-Pun" and "The Sun" those don't have actual durations, so you can't do anything about them.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-27, 09:33 AM
Yeah, it's the fact that charm keeps you from wanting to end the effect that's the problem. Mechanically you could do it, except your character wouldn't do it because why would you want to turn against your best friend?
I don't see where you wouldn't use it. Even if you think the wizard guy is your friend because of the charm effect, something is affecting you, so you should be able to use it.
WB: Oh, something's wrong with me, I can't think well. I'll use Iron Heart Surge to get out of it.
Wiz: Wha..? No, wait!
WB: Too late, bub.

Dominate is more complex. If it makes you unable to use any ability at all, then you are screwed. A dominated wizard or cleric can't use a still, silent, quickened dispell to free himself, can he? Then the warblade can't, either.

Fixer
2007-11-27, 12:27 PM
In the case of charm, I would disagree. He regards you as a trusted friend and views all of your actions--including casting the Charm spell on him if he is aware of being enchanted--in the most favorable way. If your trusted friend does something that you regard favorably, why would you intentionally counteract it?

The problem with Charm isn't mechanical, it's motivational. The spell generally causes you to not want to break the spell.
If I am a character dedicated to the cause of freedom (CG, for example), and my best friend cast a charm person on me (for whatever reason) I'd still want to break the spell. Not because I want to hurt my friend, but because it violates my principles to be controlled or influenced.

So, yes, if you are AWARE you are charmed and do not wish to be charmed, you can break the charm with IHS. It doesn't matter WHO charmed you, really.

I made up a stat card based on the purest RAW description of what IHS should be able to affect. Here is the list:

Affects: Area of Effect spells with a non-instantaneous duration, Blinded, Checked, Confused (if 11-20 is rolled), Cursed, Dazzled, Deafened, Diseased, Enchantment / Charm spells that the character is aware of and has a choice of performing a standard action, Energy Drained, Entangled, Ethereal, Exhausted, Fatigued, Frightened (if unable to move), Gaseous Form, Incorporeal, Invisible, Knocked Down, Poisoned, Polymorphed (if able to take a standard action), Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Staggered.

Now, I have some issues with Knocked Down, Prone, and Checked, but the rest don't seem too far off.

cupkeyk
2007-11-27, 01:19 PM
Prone, Staggered don't have set durations. Shaken and Sickened may, if they were caused by a spell. IHS specifies a set duration of one or more rounds.

Fixer
2007-11-27, 01:31 PM
If a spell imposes one of these two conditions, it can be used to break them.

Something that forces you prone and holds you down, for example, for Prone. I am pretty sure there are spell effects that cause staggered in a magical fashion.

Chronos
2007-11-27, 02:59 PM
Same with Level Drain.Level drain doesn't have a duration, but negative levels (which almost always precede level drain) do. So you could fight a bunch of wights, and then some time after the battle but before 24 hours, you could just surge off the negative levels before they drained you.

Aquillion
2007-11-27, 10:02 PM
So, yes, if you are AWARE you are charmed and do not wish to be charmed, you can break the charm with IHS. It doesn't matter WHO charmed you, really.I think it's pretty strongly implied that you aren't aware you're charmed, by default. After all, Charm just makes you view someone in a favorable light... if the victim automatically knows they're charmed, it would be uselessless (the same 'I wouldn't like it if my best friend charmed me' would extend to 'anyone who ever tries to charm me just turns themselves into the best friend who stabbed me in the back by casting charm person on me').

Obviously people who have charm person cast on them do not resent being charmed while the spell is in effect. If they did, as the spell is worded, it would be useless.

If I am a character dedicated to the cause of freedom (CG, for example), and my best friend cast a charm person on me (for whatever reason) I'd still want to break the spell.This is absolutely terrible. No, your alignment does not give you any special abilities to resist spells (unless the spells say otherwise); you don't get a bonus to your saving throw against Hold Person or Suggestion just because you really, really like freedom, no more than you get to resist Finger of Death just because you really, really like being alive. Likewise, you don't get any special options against Charm Person that you wouldn't have otherwise just because you're chaotic good.

Suggesting that a charmed character is entitled to immediately start acting suspicious or annoyed at their new "friend" because they know they've been charmed would negate the purpose of the spell. Without that knowledge, there's no way (short of blatant metagaming) that you can justify using any of your own abilities to break it.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-28, 01:29 AM
If I am a character dedicated to the cause of freedom (CG, for example), and my best friend cast a charm person on me (for whatever reason) I'd still want to break the spell. Not because I want to hurt my friend, but because it violates my principles to be controlled or influenced.

I would tend to agree, but being alignment CG would not be enough. If you were say, a Champion of Freedom (AE class), or had previously roleplayed an absolute disdain for the use of charming magic for any purpose (including forcing party members not to charm enemies), and you were explicitly aware that a charm was cast on you, I could see your being justified in breaking the effect with IHS.

In NERO, a Mystic Wood Elf would be justified in casting a spell to remove a charm on himself, as they racially have that mindset. Of course, you don't generally know that you are charmed in NERO, so that point is moot.

I got charmed three times last event. Grrrr, now I have to buy more resist charms.

Fixer
2007-11-28, 08:43 AM
I disagree with both of you. I shall even give an example as to why.

A buddy of mine HATES when anyone casts a spell on his characters that isn't healing (and he has to REALLY need the healing). No boosting, nothing. He can be in an area of effect boost but nothing targeting him directly. This is just his thing, he hates being the target of spells. He usually plays chaotic but not always.

If someone casts Charm Person on one of his characters, he probably wouldn't notice because the spell is subtle and he never takes Spellcraft. If, however, someone told him he had been the subject of the spell, and he had this ability, he'd use it just to see if it was true. If he was dominated and was given an opportunity to act of his own free will for even one action, he'd break it then too.

I will agree that neither alignment nor class features can be used to justify this sort of disbelief, but role-playing that out CAN justify it.

You can disagree with me, just as I disagree with you, but do not expect me to change my mind on this. Magic is not an all-powerful force at level 1. It's not even world-shattering at level 9. There is no reason for it to 'always work' when RPing would say otherwise.

Tormsskull
2007-11-28, 09:38 AM
You can disagree with me, just as I disagree with you, but do not expect me to change my mind on this. Magic is not an all-powerful force at level 1. It's not even world-shattering at level 9. There is no reason for it to 'always work' when RPing would say otherwise.

I'm all for roleplaying, and I can understand the angle you are coming from, but I think permitting this type of action would result in munchkins coming out of the woodwork to claim benefits due to them for various things that have happened in their character's past.

I've always viewed Charm Person as making the target unaware that they were under the effects of the spell. I mean, any character in their right mind would be immediately cautious if they didn't even know who someone was, that person said a few words and waved their hands, and then suddenly they believe that person is their best friend.

I understand that players hate being charmed as it causes them to lose control of their actions to some degree, but it really is an excellent opportunity for roleplaying.

Now, as far a IHS is concerned, I don't own the book, and very rarely use material from any splat books in my campaigns, but I will still go out on a limb and say that a player with this ability should not be able to use it in response to a charm spell.

If a DM chose to allow this IHS in response to a charm, I would then strongly argue that a character should plain be able to distrust any caster that uses a form of Charm on them, which would severely reduce the power of charm spells.

Edit:


A buddy of mine HATES when anyone casts a spell on his characters that isn't healing (and he has to REALLY need the healing). No boosting, nothing. He can be in an area of effect boost but nothing targeting him directly. This is just his thing, he hates being the target of spells. He usually plays chaotic but not always.


Also, BTW, this is a horrible example of Roleplaying. A buddy of yours hates when anyone cast spells on his "characters" implies that he treats all of his characters the same in this regard. That, in my experience, is the first sign of being a bad roleplayer, the inability to distinguish one character/role from another.