Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?

[Particle_Man]

Not sure of the rules here.

Can one animate a human body as a zombie even if there is already a ghost of that human?

If so, could that ghost possess that body as per malevolence?

What would happen then?

[Crake]

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing stopping a ghost's corpse from being animated as a zombie, and there's nothing stopping a ghost from possessing it's old body. At that point, you'd just apply the rules for all those things as normal. The ability still ends after 10 hours (or the ghost's HD in hours, whichever is longer), and the zombie still gets a will save, and is immune for 24 hours if it succeeds it's save.

Of course, as a DM, you can rule it however you wish, but RAW, that's how it would work.

[Saintheart]

Multiverse of Madness is going to bring all these kinds of milkshakes to the yard I suspect...

[Max Caysey]

Not sure of the rules here.

Can one animate a human body as a zombie even if there is already a ghost of that human?

If so, could that ghost possess that body as per malevolence?

What would happen then?

A zombie is essentially just a rotten flesh golem, so yes you can animate that fine. Just like you can pick up or move a corpse, so too can magic! The ghost has nothing to do with the remains… hence it being a ghost. A zombi likewise has nothing to do with the mind/soul that once occupied it…

If ghosts can possess golems then yes… if they can’t posses non-living matter or because the controlling mechanism would override it then it can’t!

[redking]

Yes, you can create a zombie or even other undead with the dead bodies of ghosts. The implications of a dread warrior (from Animate Dread Warrior spell) being created are interesting, because presumably the dread warrior has at least some memories of its life.

[Thurbane]

This makes me wonder...an intelligent magic item is treated as a creature.

Can a ghost possess an intelligent sword?

[Beni-Kujaku]

A zombie is essentially just a rotten flesh golem, so yes you can animate that fine. Just like you can pick up or move a corpse, so too can magic! The ghost has nothing to do with the remains… hence it being a ghost. A zombi likewise has nothing to do with the mind/soul that once occupied it…

If ghosts can possess golems then yes… if they can’t posses non-living matter or because the controlling mechanism would override it then it can’t!

From Magic Jar (on which the Malevolence ability of the ghost is based) :

In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more Hit Dice between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)

That precision on souls, and the fact that the rest of the spell uses "life force" and "soul" indiscriminately make me think that Malevolence can only affect creatures with souls. Now, it would be different for a dread warrior, a vampire or other sentient undead instead of a zombie, if you could animate one and still get a ghost. But then you would have the same soul in two "bodies", which is weird. I really don't think i would allow for a dread warrior to be created when there is already a ghost of the same person.

If we go by lore, I'm pretty sure the zombie doesn't "have" a soul, but is animated and powered by the trapped soul of who it initially was, as well an Negative Energy. This is why the spell component for Animate dead is a black onyx. That's a gem similar to a diamond, but opposite in color. It still recalls the soul from the afterlife, but uses it to power the corpse as a helpless bystander. This is why you can't resurrect someone who has been turned into an undead without first destroying the undead, even with True Resurrection, and most probably why Animate Dead is an [Evil] spell (well, that and the fact that it brings Negative Energy on the Material Plane to make the undead move). I'm really not sure you could animate even a zombie if the soul has already become a ghost. I guess you don't really need the right soul to animate the corpse. Now, of course, RAW doesn't bother itself with such considerations, and you could animate it just fine, but True Resurrection would work very weirdly in that case. Would you need both undead to be destroyed? Only the sentient one? Only the last one created? In my opinion, the most sensible interpretation is that "turned into an undead" in the true Resurrection spell means "turned into a sentient undead and retain its soul", while a zombie or a skeleton can be animated with any random soul from the afterlife and doesn't interfere with anything.

[ShurikVch]

If we go by lore, I'm pretty sure the zombie doesn't "have" a soul, but is animated and powered by the trapped soul of who it initially was
Pretty sure no souls involved in the Animate Dead: those who were killed with Thinaun are still could be animated...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Pretty sure no souls involved in the Animate Dead: those who were killed with Thinaun are still could be animated...

They can? Then why does Resurrection not work if the undead isn't destroyed?

[ShurikVch]

They can? Then why does Resurrection not work if the undead isn't destroyed?
Because the spell's description says so
On the other hand, Bier of Resurrection (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook):

This large stone platform casts resurrection on any corpse laid upon it, but only if you also place a diamond worth at least 500 gp over the corpse's heart. The activation of the magic consumes the diamond.
The resurrection spell only works upon remains less than 90 years dead. The revived subject is restored to full hit points, vigor, and health. However, he loses a level - or 1 point of Constitution if he's at 1st level.
This effect even works on those killed by a death effect or who have become undead. It cannot, however, help someone dead of old age.
Greater effect of Miracle don't invokes the "destroyed" clause too...

[Batcathat]

Because the spell's description says so
On the other hand, Bier of Resurrection (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook):

I wonder how important the "laid upon it" part is, because I really like the idea of creating a trap for invading vampires by leaving a bunch of diamonds lying around on some Totally Normal Stone Platform. :smalltongue: (Okay, so the "over the heart" part might be tricky too. Maybe vampires like hugging their valuables?)

[sleepyphoenixx]

They can? Then why does Resurrection not work if the undead isn't destroyed?

Animate Dead only needs a body, no souls. And Resurrection works just fine on undead without having to destroy them. It just doesn't work on part of a corpse if the rest of that corpse is animated as an undead.


Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
As for why that is the IC answer is "because magic". OOC it's "because that's the rules".

So you could definitely use Resurrection to destroy vampires (or more accurately turn them back into whatever they were before being turned) assuming you can find a way around the 10 minute casting time.

Where it gets interesting is when you apply that to a lich - it gets turned back into a living creature, so you should get around the issue of finding and destroying the phylactery.
Because living creatures don't have those.

Edit: Of course that all depends on the original soul being free and willing to return, which probably won't apply to liches at least.

[redking]

Now, it would be different for a dread warrior, a vampire or other sentient undead instead of a zombie, if you could animate one and still get a ghost. But then you would have the same soul in two "bodies", which is weird. I really don't think i would allow for a dread warrior to be created when there is already a ghost of the same person.

I see it more as an activation of necrotic brain matter than the soul inhabiting the body of a dread warrior. Think about it. Someone is killed. His soul goes to his/her deity (or becomes a ghost). What is animated by a necromancer later is the carnel, necrotic flesh, not the soul - at least in the case of the dread warrior. As to wraiths and spectres, it's hard to say.

[Eldonauran]

Maybe slightly off topic, but somewhat relevant, the Reanimated Medium (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Medium%20Reanimate d%20Medium) from Pathfinder 1e has this kind of flavor but more of the 'you are repossessing your spiritless body after a botched raise dead, or similar, effect'. I've been itching to play one of these.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I see it more as an activation of necrotic brain matter than the soul inhabiting the body of a dread warrior. Think about it. Someone is killed. His soul goes to his/her deity (or becomes a ghost). What is animated by a necromancer later is the carnel, necrotic flesh, not the soul - at least in the case of the dread warrior. As to wraiths and spectres, it's hard to say.

That would contradict Magic Jar's text. Sentient undead do have souls, and I don't know which it would be except the one of the original owner, but traumatized and badly brought back, so it loses most of its intelligence. Wraiths and spectres simply are disembodied souls. I don't know, is there a mindless incorporeal undead? That would be weird.

Another possibility would be Libris Mortis's interpretation of an "animating spirit". When you cast an animating spell, you call for a spirit from other planes (not the original soul, mind you), that comes and animates the dead body.


Such spirits are often little more than nodes of unquenchable hunger, wishing only to feed. These comprise many of the mindless undead. Sometimes these evil infl uences also manage to reinvigorate the decaying memories of the body’s former host. Thus, some semblance of the original personality and memories remain, though the newly awakened being is invariably twisted by the inhabiting spirit, resulting in an evil, twisted, and intelligent creature. However, this being is not truly inhabited by the spirit of the original creature, which has left to seek its ultimate destiny in the Outer Planes. This amalgamation is something entirely new.

That last sentence seems pretty close to what happens to a dread warrior, but absolutely not for incorporeal undead, and not really for "spawn" undead either, like vampires, or "purposeful" undead, like liches and necropolitans. The text from Magic Jar can then be understood as "only sentient undead can have (or are) souls". In essence, the animating spirit for "higher" intelligent undead is the original soul of the creature, but there's no "animating spirit" for incorporeal undead. Only the disembodied soul. This is why Revive Undead (who specifically mentions bringing the animating spirit back in the body) only mentions reviving an undead whose destroyed body you can touch, and hence doesn't work on incorporeal undead.

[Tzardok]

It should be noted that there is at least one intelligent undead that has no soul on its own: the devourer.

[ShurikVch]

Kir-lanan are have no souls. While it should, obviously, prevent them from becoming a Shadow (or other incorporeal undead) - nothing is said about impossibility to animate them as a Mummy (or any other intelligent non-incorporeal undead)


It should be noted that there is at least one intelligent undead that has no soul on its own: the devourer.
Another example is Shadow Sun Ninja Vampire: their soul is imprisoned within the Iron City of Dis

[redking]

That would contradict Magic Jar's text. Sentient undead do have souls, and I don't know which it would be except the one of the original owner, but traumatized and badly brought back, so it loses most of its intelligence.

Or the anima that passes for a soul in the corporeal undead creature could be created wholesale by the magical effect of the necromancer's spells. Let me put it another way. Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin has died and gone to his deity. Months later a necromancer comes along and animates the body as an intelligent undead - lets say a ghast. Now there is an undead creature there, but is Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin's soul really in it? I don't think so. It probably has some of Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin's memories, thanks to its necrotic brain matter. So what is being targeted by magic jar? Who knows. Possibly, a necrotic soul is created as soon as there is a spark of intelligence. Perhaps the soul comes from spares available from the lower planes or the god of death. Perhaps the soul is a "shadow soul", a mere reflection of the original. Among many, many possibilities, the idea that the ghast's soul is that of Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin seems the least likely.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The fact that a 3rd level spell could create a soul out of nothing seems even less likely. In that case‚ the "soul" in the ghast that Magic Jar can detect is just the animating spirit acting as the soul. As said earlier‚ the term "soul" in Magic Jar is almost synonymous with "life force".

[ShurikVch]

One more proof Zombies don't contain their souls is the Putrefaction spell:

When the victim dies, his body immediately animates as a zombie under the control of the caster. Additionally, the victim's soul transforms into a ghost that cannot move more than 30 feet from the caster. This ghost gains all the powers as listed in the ghost's description in the Monster Manual, but the vile energies of the spell cause the ghost to become evil.
So, since ghost is the soul - zombie, obviously, have no soul...


The fact that a 3rd level spell could create a soul out of nothing seems even less likely.
Create Lantern Archon (Champions of Valor) is a 3rd-level spell...