Allistar
2022-05-21, 07:28 PM
Hi everyone, hope yall are all having a good day.
I've been curious about playing a necromancer for a while and within researching I have found many conflicting opinions about certain aspects of a necromancer build. These are just some of the guides I've seen on the topic, but I have a few questions and want to open up a broader discussion about necromancy and how some of the tools can be utilized to their greatest effect.
Brewer's Guide to Undeath (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit?resourcekey=0-14szXwlKO7ndjgv4Q3A9EQ)
Handbook of Hordes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12yyTEeiDupAV4tCoZi_1GS_rv6QmlFbNCL2hkEZ54dg/edit)
ShakaUVM's Methods for Necromantic Success (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hA61fDAxblBxbRXe236ZUmobf38hkB9d_foo3dEi7N4/pub)
These are by far my favorite guides. The final two pages of the brewer's guide are incredibly helpful and the undead roster sheet is a godsend. The Handbook of Hordes seems very helpful in breaking down the categories of undead and showing the variant undead you can create. I also really enjoy the section for planar binding as another route to helpers and dead heaps that you can reanimate. Finally, despite being for PFS and not really being all that applicable to me, I enjoy the level plan put forward by Methods of Necromantic Success, and have kind of taken to tweaking that feat progression for my build
What Class Should You Go With?
I know this is a subjective question because each class has a myriad of abilities that tackle the topic of necromancy in interesting ways and even more abilities beyond that through their other spells an roles. I've seen many people say that cleric is the best because they have the earliest access to almost all of the necessary spells, they can heal their horde through channels as well as get the command undead feat, and they have all the same capacity as a normal cleric. I personally like undead master wizard a bit more because it gets access to most of these things as well as the command undead spell, but we'll come to that a bit later. I might also be biased towards wizards after seeing the brutal effectiveness of spells like glitterdust, black tentacles, wall of force, greater invisibility and so much more. I haven't really played with a cleric on the same level, and because of that I feel like I'm definitely missing something somewhere. Maybe the opposition schools are what kills it. What do you think?
Undead Master Feat and the Command Undead Spell
Personally, I agree with Handbook of Hordes. The command undead spell acts as a no save domination for any mindless undead you create, and it seems very abusable. For example, you can animate a Pit Fiend's Bloody Skeleton (I think... I'm actually not sure if the double HD thing means that only creatures with 10HD or less can be bloody skeletons... but regardless). By animating this you might put yourself over your animate dead cap, but that's fine. Just let him go uncontrolled and cast a command undead on him. Suddenly what represented probably a large portion of your controllable HD is now under your control for days/lvl. Undead master doubles this and stacks with extend spell, so you can have up to 3 days/lvl. And there is no HD limit for command undead, so you can repeat this process as many times as you have a large scarry thing to reanimate. This seems ludicrously powerful to me, and the idea of being able to have dozens (hundreds if you're really frisky) of creatures that represent such large portions of controllable HD under your control for a month at level 10 sounds downright broken
Agent of the Grave and Secrets of Death
Agent of the Grave seems amazing to me. 8HD of undead control per level, cha to HP, walking desecrates, and the ability to pick up spells not on their original class's list. Undeath Initiate also helps in the usual necromancer's goal of becoming a lich (and is not unwelcome seeing the check DCs of Eternal Apotheosis). But the real question I have is what spells are worth picking up? I like explosion of rot, but beyond that I don't really know a lot of good spells to pick up. https://aonprd.com/SpellsCustom.aspx helps, but I haven't been able to do a deep dive and look at every necromancy spell in depth yet. I guess other possible questions are "do each of the spells have to be from the same class" and "If you take a spell like Slay Living, which is an anti-paladin 4, cleric/oracle 5, shaman 6, what level spell is it? Do you get to choose? These questions are quite variable from table to table, but idunno I'm just kind of curious as to what yall think.
That's all I've got for now, but I will add onto the discussion if I think of more questions. I look forward to hearing what yall have to say, and I hope yall have a good day!
Edit; I also do enjoy the discussion surrounding phylacteries. The elaborate ways people hide them, safeguard them, what they're made of everything along those lines. So, if you have anything related to that I'd love to hear about it!
I've been curious about playing a necromancer for a while and within researching I have found many conflicting opinions about certain aspects of a necromancer build. These are just some of the guides I've seen on the topic, but I have a few questions and want to open up a broader discussion about necromancy and how some of the tools can be utilized to their greatest effect.
Brewer's Guide to Undeath (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit?resourcekey=0-14szXwlKO7ndjgv4Q3A9EQ)
Handbook of Hordes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12yyTEeiDupAV4tCoZi_1GS_rv6QmlFbNCL2hkEZ54dg/edit)
ShakaUVM's Methods for Necromantic Success (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hA61fDAxblBxbRXe236ZUmobf38hkB9d_foo3dEi7N4/pub)
These are by far my favorite guides. The final two pages of the brewer's guide are incredibly helpful and the undead roster sheet is a godsend. The Handbook of Hordes seems very helpful in breaking down the categories of undead and showing the variant undead you can create. I also really enjoy the section for planar binding as another route to helpers and dead heaps that you can reanimate. Finally, despite being for PFS and not really being all that applicable to me, I enjoy the level plan put forward by Methods of Necromantic Success, and have kind of taken to tweaking that feat progression for my build
What Class Should You Go With?
I know this is a subjective question because each class has a myriad of abilities that tackle the topic of necromancy in interesting ways and even more abilities beyond that through their other spells an roles. I've seen many people say that cleric is the best because they have the earliest access to almost all of the necessary spells, they can heal their horde through channels as well as get the command undead feat, and they have all the same capacity as a normal cleric. I personally like undead master wizard a bit more because it gets access to most of these things as well as the command undead spell, but we'll come to that a bit later. I might also be biased towards wizards after seeing the brutal effectiveness of spells like glitterdust, black tentacles, wall of force, greater invisibility and so much more. I haven't really played with a cleric on the same level, and because of that I feel like I'm definitely missing something somewhere. Maybe the opposition schools are what kills it. What do you think?
Undead Master Feat and the Command Undead Spell
Personally, I agree with Handbook of Hordes. The command undead spell acts as a no save domination for any mindless undead you create, and it seems very abusable. For example, you can animate a Pit Fiend's Bloody Skeleton (I think... I'm actually not sure if the double HD thing means that only creatures with 10HD or less can be bloody skeletons... but regardless). By animating this you might put yourself over your animate dead cap, but that's fine. Just let him go uncontrolled and cast a command undead on him. Suddenly what represented probably a large portion of your controllable HD is now under your control for days/lvl. Undead master doubles this and stacks with extend spell, so you can have up to 3 days/lvl. And there is no HD limit for command undead, so you can repeat this process as many times as you have a large scarry thing to reanimate. This seems ludicrously powerful to me, and the idea of being able to have dozens (hundreds if you're really frisky) of creatures that represent such large portions of controllable HD under your control for a month at level 10 sounds downright broken
Agent of the Grave and Secrets of Death
Agent of the Grave seems amazing to me. 8HD of undead control per level, cha to HP, walking desecrates, and the ability to pick up spells not on their original class's list. Undeath Initiate also helps in the usual necromancer's goal of becoming a lich (and is not unwelcome seeing the check DCs of Eternal Apotheosis). But the real question I have is what spells are worth picking up? I like explosion of rot, but beyond that I don't really know a lot of good spells to pick up. https://aonprd.com/SpellsCustom.aspx helps, but I haven't been able to do a deep dive and look at every necromancy spell in depth yet. I guess other possible questions are "do each of the spells have to be from the same class" and "If you take a spell like Slay Living, which is an anti-paladin 4, cleric/oracle 5, shaman 6, what level spell is it? Do you get to choose? These questions are quite variable from table to table, but idunno I'm just kind of curious as to what yall think.
That's all I've got for now, but I will add onto the discussion if I think of more questions. I look forward to hearing what yall have to say, and I hope yall have a good day!
Edit; I also do enjoy the discussion surrounding phylacteries. The elaborate ways people hide them, safeguard them, what they're made of everything along those lines. So, if you have anything related to that I'd love to hear about it!