Paladin thoughts on build

[Rleonardh]

This is not a min/max build, it's more of a tank than after fight healer, already know just go cleric 20 for it to be better 😂

Cleric of pelor 1 paladin 19
H point blank shot
1 rapid shot
1cd healing devotion
1cd sun devotion
3 power attack
6 practiced spellcaster
9 extra turning
12 extra turning
15 extra turning
18 extra turning

14 str
10 dex
14 con
14 wis
10 int
14 cha

Campaign is not built for heavy op it's mostly a low op campaign with fights that's not going to be ecl plus 4 or stuff like that. It's more for tier 3 to 5 on the class tier list guide.
Probably going to reach level 13 ish before it's over starts at 1.

[nedz]

Why do you have two archery feats and then two melee ones ?
This looks like a lack of focus and normally indicated that you are trying to do too much though with all those extra turning picks that doesn't seem to be the case.

Is Practiced spellcaster on Paladin or Cleric ?

[Rleonardh]

Two archery feats for ranged or air combat
Melee for up close and personal.

Alot of outside healing freeing up cleric and or druid to do other things.

The campaign will be low magic item game plus no encounter will be more than a ecl +2 tops said the dm.

So a low op build isn't going to hurt as bad vs a heavy ecl +4 every encounter campaign with lots of magic gear.

If it was I would do a prounce barbarian 1 paladin x charger with travel devotion.

[Telonius]

I'd put Battle Blessing (from Complete Champion) as the 6th-level Feat in place of Practiced Spellcaster. I don't think it's really worth it, regardless of whether you're applying it to Cleric or Paladin. If it's for Paladin, you're only improving caster level by 1. If it's for Cleric, you're bumping up your caster level for the couple of 0- and 1-level Cleric spells you get. It'll extend the duration of a few spells, monsters will continue to make the saves for others, and you'll be getting a +1 to how much your Cure Light Wounds will heal. Basically, there are much better things for you to be spending your feats on.

[nedz]

I'd put Battle Blessing (from Complete Champion) as the 6th-level Feat in place of Practiced Spellcaster. I don't think it's really worth it, regardless of whether you're applying it to Cleric or Paladin. If it's for Paladin, you're only improving caster level by 1. If it's for Cleric, you're bumping up your caster level for the couple of 0- and 1-level Cleric spells you get. It'll extend the duration of a few spells, monsters will continue to make the saves for others, and you'll be getting a +1 to how much your Cure Light Wounds will heal. Basically, there are much better things for you to be spending your feats on.


Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.
Depending upon how you read this then Practiced Spellcaster can be quite useful for the half casters — n/2+4 or (n+1)/2 — though they don't have many spells to apply it to.

But you are right in that there are better feats to take, but that's probably true for all of the Extra Turnings.

I'm not sure how we are supposed to give optimisation advice for a low op build, or even what we are being asked for help with ?

[Rleonardh]

Practiced spellcaster is
Paladin level 1/2:+4
So a level 4 paladin will be 2+4 for 6cl.

Considered as the party's "tank" role vs barbarian or fighter.

[Particle_Man]

Would replacing the paladin levels with crusader levels be too high op?

[AsuraKyoko]

The first thing I notice is that you are spending 2 feats on Point-Blank Shot and Rapid shot, but you have a dex of 10. You are unlikely to be able to hit very often with that, at least at low levels. You mentioned that you want to use them against far away or flying enemies, but it's just not going to be effective, particularly at the level you take them.

My suggestion would be to swap those out for Brutal Throw (Complete Adventurer). It lets you use your Strength for attack rolls with thrown weapons. Your range won't be as long as with a bow, but you will be much more effective. That being said, I don't think you really need to invest feats in ranged combat, unless you foresee a significant number of encounters where being melee just won't work.

I'm assuming that you are going to be fighting a lot of undead in this game, given Sun devotion? If so, you might want to consider Sacred Healing and Sacred Purification (both from PHB II). Sacred Healing can give a nice little boost to your cure spells, but it's mostly just a prerequisite for Sacred Purification, which lets you spend a turn attempt as a swift action to heal all living creatures and harm all undead within 60 ft. It's not a ton of healing, but it's only a swift action, and it's a pretty large area, so it's useful if you are doing something like defending a town against a zombie horde.

If you are willing to go Silverbrow Human, you could grab Dragonfire Channeling to give yourself a neat little AoE attack, though the area is small, and the damage will lag a fair bit in the early levels, when it would be best, so I don't really think it's worth it.

Finally, I would second grabbing Battle Blessing instead of Practiced Spellcaster, it just does so much more for a paladin overall.

I guess If I were to revise your feat list, it would look something like this (assuming that you want to be able to do something like use Sacred Purification every round at high levels):

Cleric of pelor 1/paladin 19
H Sacred Healing
1 Sacred Purification
1cd healing devotion
1cd sun devotion
3 power attack
6 Battle Blessing
9 extra turning
12 extra turning
15 extra turning
18 extra turning

This gets you 19+Cha Mod turn attempts per day, which is a lot of turning. Given that most combats are 5 rounds or less, that's using an attempt every single round for 4 combats per day. It's probably way more than you need, so you can replace your last few feats with some other neat options, like Improved Smite.

[Rleonardh]

The first thing I notice is that you are spending 2 feats on Point-Blank Shot and Rapid shot, but you have a dex of 10. You are unlikely to be able to hit very often with that, at least at low levels. You mentioned that you want to use them against far away or flying enemies, but it's just not going to be effective, particularly at the level you take them.

My suggestion would be to swap those out for Brutal Throw (Complete Adventurer). It lets you use your Strength for attack rolls with thrown weapons. Your range won't be as long as with a bow, but you will be much more effective. That being said, I don't think you really need to invest feats in ranged combat, unless you foresee a significant number of encounters where being melee just won't work.

I'm assuming that you are going to be fighting a lot of undead in this game, given Sun devotion? If so, you might want to consider Sacred Healing and Sacred Purification (both from PHB II). Sacred Healing can give a nice little boost to your cure spells, but it's mostly just a prerequisite for Sacred Purification, which lets you spend a turn attempt as a swift action to heal all living creatures and harm all undead within 60 ft. It's not a ton of healing, but it's only a swift action, and it's a pretty large area, so it's useful if you are doing something like defending a town against a zombie horde.

If you are willing to go Silverbrow Human, you could grab Dragonfire Channeling to give yourself a neat little AoE attack, though the area is small, and the damage will lag a fair bit in the early levels, when it would be best, so I don't really think it's worth it.

Finally, I would second grabbing Battle Blessing instead of Practiced Spellcaster, it just does so much more for a paladin overall.

I guess If I were to revise your feat list, it would look something like this (assuming that you want to be able to do something like use Sacred Purification every round at high levels):

Cleric of pelor 1/paladin 19
H Sacred Healing
1 Sacred Purification
1cd healing devotion
1cd sun devotion
3 power attack
6 Battle Blessing
9 extra turning
12 extra turning
15 extra turning
18 extra turning

This gets you 19+Cha Mod turn attempts per day, which is a lot of turning. Given that most combats are 5 rounds or less, that's using an attempt every single round for 4 combats per day. It's probably way more than you need, so you can replace your last few feats with some other neat options, like Improved Smite.

Thank you didn't even consider brutal thrower
Plus feat selection you listed helps and makes me reconsider things.
Much appreciated

Only thing is scared healing has to be taken at 6th.
I can definitely see those 2 feats being used as a auto save for allied drop to -1-9 hp.
Sun devotion as pelor didn't have any other domain I liked. May as well have a free mess up undead free feat vs a domain for cleric that's stuck at level 1.

Battle blessings Im not seeing how it would help, think that's where I'm struggling.

So
Cleric 1/paladin 19
H brutal thrower
1 power attack
1cd healing devotion
1cd sun devotion
3 extra turning
6 battle blessings
9 sacred healing
12 sacred purification
15 extra turning
18 extra turning

[Maat Mons]

Are you operating on a 28 point buy? If you are allowed access to Dragon Compendium, you can take the feat Serenity. It allows you to use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Smite Evil, and Turn Undead. You wouldn't be able to pick it up until 3rd level though. But if you're willing to go through two levels with your Turn Undead and Smite lacking, you could switch your stats to Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

If you're going to be doing archery on a Cleric or Paladin base, the Zen archery feat lets you use Wisdom instead of Dexterity for ranged attack rolls.

I'd consider going back into Cleric for at least another 3 levels after getting what you want out of Paladin. With one Cleric level, you're 1 base attack bonus behind a straight marital. With four Cleric levels, you still only 1 base attack bonus behind a straight martial.

Ordained Champion is a nice class if you like Smiting. It lets you spend Turn Undead attempts for more Smites. Eventually, you could get the Awesome Smite feat, which lets your Smites bypass DR, knock enemies prone, or ignore miss chance.

If you do decide to stick mostly to Paladin, the From Smite to Song feat can make those Paladin levels do a little more for you.

[Rleonardh]

Wow ok
Phb2
Complete Divine both have feat "sacred healing" but worlds apart.

Does one replace another or they both take able feats?

[gijoemike]

Why no prestige class at all?
Are you not allowed to use any alternative class feature?

[Arkhios]

Practiced spellcaster is
Paladin level 1/2:+4
So a level 4 paladin will be 2+4 for 6cl.

This interpretation is (partially*) correct. The feat specifically speaks of 'caster level', which is your paladin level halved.
*However, a level 4 paladin's caster level, even with the feat, would be only 4 (Paladin level:2 + 2 because you have a total of 4 HD), because the feat specifically says that you can't increase your caster level above your total Hit Dice, and as a paladin 4 you would have only 4 HD.

a level break-down of Paladin Caster Level ('PCL' below) for your convenience, with this build:
Cleric 1/Paladin 0: PCL 0 (0 even if you took 'Practiced Spellcaster - Paladin' at character level 1)
Cleric 1/Paladin 1: PCL 0 (0 even if you took 'Practiced Spellcaster - Paladin' at character level 1)
Cleric 1/Paladin 2: PCL 0 (0 even if you took 'Practiced Spellcaster - Paladin' at character level 1 or 3)
Cleric 1/Paladin 3: PCL 0 (0 even if you took 'Practiced Spellcaster - Paladin' at character level 1 or 3)
Cleric 1/Paladin 4: PCL 2 (5 even if you took 'Practiced Spellcaster - Paladin' at character level 1 or 3)
Cleric 1/Paladin 5: PCL 6 (Practiced Spellcaster feat actually taken)
Cleric 1/Paladin 6: PCL 7
Cleric 1/Paladin 7: PCL 7
Cleric 1/Paladin 8: PCL 8
Cleric 1/Paladin 9: PCL 8
Cleric 1/Paladin 10: PCL 9
Cleric 1/Paladin 11: PCL 9
Cleric 1/Paladin 12: PCL 10
Cleric 1/Paladin 13: PCL 10
Cleric 1/Paladin 14: PCL 11
Cleric 1/Paladin 15: PCL 11
Cleric 1/Paladin 16: PCL 12
Cleric 1/Paladin 17: PCL 12
Cleric 1/Paladin 18: PCL 13
Cleric 1/Paladin 19: PCL 13

[Mordante]

Why so many extra turning? IMHO undead are pretty rare as monster.

At what level will yo be starting? Do you expect to ever reach level 20? Most campaigns are level 1 to 12.

[Rleonardh]

Extra turning to fuel healing devotion and sacred healing the 3 hp per cha over rounds one, and vs undead sun devotion. Campaign is going from 1-13 max 10-13 is where I see it headed.

[nedz]

Extra turning to fuel healing devotion and sacred healing the 3 hp per cha over rounds one, and vs undead sun devotion. Campaign is going from 1-13 max 10-13 is where I see it headed.

Healing devotion is useful in the very early levels, but not after you can buy wands; unless you are going to be in a very low wealth game.

[Rleonardh]

Low low magic item campaign this one will me, almost considered a cleric 1/fighter x build also usually 5 to 7 encounters per rest.

[Gorthawar]

Low low magic item campaign this one will me, almost considered a cleric 1/fighter x build also usually 5 to 7 encounters per rest.

You could replace one of the extra turning with draconic aura: vigor. That would give you and your team fast healing 1 (or more if you have dragonblood) up to half health. The cleric in my party gets a lot of use out of it in combination with his healing devotion.