[3.5] Most OP Spells For Their Level

[Thurbane]

So, off the standard 9 level spells lists (Cleric, Druid and Sorcerer/Wizard), which spells are considered to be the most OP for the level they are listed at?

Specifically, looking for the intended level that these spells appear on those lists, not cheeky ways of getting them early (i.e. Trapsmith, Archivist etc. etc.).

Official spells please, no PF, no 3rd party. no Ravenloft/Kalamar/Dragonlance (except the DL campaign setting book), and ideally not Dragon Mag.

Cheers - T


Let me start by saying that I'm responding as if the question means "what are the FEW most overpowered spells of each level", not "what is the SINGLE most overpowered spell of each level". The question can be interpreted either way. That may be the source of some of our disagreement.

Sorry for any ambiguity: I wasn't specifically looking for a list, 0 - 9, with one spell of each level. Just general discussion about what are considered OP spells for the level you get them as a standard caster.

[Ramza00]

With the Dragonlance Campaign book (which you said okay to)

Earthen Shield 3rd level
Elemental Dart 2nd level
Dalamar's Lightning Lance 4th level

Are all great spells and should be 1 level higher

Two great damage spells, and a wall that blocks line of effect and sight at the level a 5th HD Wizard can cast.

[RandomPeasant]

Probably alter self or planar binding. You could make an argument for lesser planar binding, but 6HD at 9th level is less impactful than 12HD at 11th level. greater planar binding, while objectively more powerful than planar binding, is not really that much more abusable at the limit.

I don't think lightning lance is that powerful. It's orb of electricity, with marginally higher max damage, lower expected damage, and no secondary effect. It scales well, but I'm hesitant to call a 4th level spell overpowered for what it does at 10th level, let alone 15th. elemental dart similarly seems only somewhat better than sorching ray at the level you get it.

[loky1109]

Both Anyspells.

[Soranar]

Level 0

ghost sound

Level 1

grease
entangle
silent image

Level 2

alter self

Level 3

Stinking cloud
haste

Level 4+

polymorph
black tentacles

Beyond this level spells seem more or less level appropriate

[Venger]

1 power word pain
2 glitterdust
3 shivering touch
4 polymorph

For levels 5 and up, that's pretty tough. By now, spells of this level really should be able to end encounters. If you're burning a 6 on a cloudkill to wipe out a big group of weak minions, then that seems like a reasonable return on investment. If you're fighting a tough boss type character at lvl 11 like a mid-level devil or demon, it won't really do that much to them.

Good spells at higher levels like avasculate or power word stun are in a similar boat. Many common on-level enemy types will be immune to useful debuff effects (such as golems) and ones who aren't are probably weak enough to be dispatched other ways (like giants) so fx of this sort don't seem that overpowered.

When it comes to spell levels at 8 and 9, aside from there only being a few dozen of them (with a ton of options that are outright garbage like meteor swarm) the ones that actually work/do something like shapechange or astral projection seem like a reasonable reward for getting to this level, plus are largely necessary for the kinds of enemies you're fighting at lvl 17+. Honestly, I'm not sure it's possible for a 9th level spell to be overpowered, given what the expected baseline for this echelon of spells is: imprisoning enemies forever, getting their gods to excommunicate them, and creating your own dimension.

[Rleonardh]

Cleric phb only
0 resistance
1 shield of faith
2 resistance energy
3 animate dead
4 divine power
5 true seeing
6 heal
7 control weather
8 greater planer ally
9 miracle

Not that I would chose every single one on a day by day case. But I think each one can at least be considered.

[Quertus]

Here's a few of my entries to get things started. Let's sort these by level.

1
Lesser Vigor sees plenty of play, but I don't think it's OP.

2
Invisibility.
Command Undead

3
Animate Dead (much better in 2e when there was no control limit)
3.0 Haste gave you an extra partial action (and +4 AC). Most people felt that was OP (despite it being a stealth nurf to Wizards' staying power).

4
The 3.0 Orb spells (except Orb of Force) were 1 target per level SoS spells. They seemed strong.

6
Harm (3.0) - be at d4 HP, regardless of your HP? Infinite scalability.
Heal - cures just about anything.

7
Slime Wave (3.0) dealt 1d6 Con damage per round per 5' of facing the target had.

8
Simulacrum

9
Wish

[nedz]

Level 1
Colour Spray, Silent Image
Level 2
Glitterdust, Blinding Spittle (on monsters)
Level 3
Shivering Touch, Glibness

There are others I'm sure.

[Ramza00]

I don't think lightning lance is that powerful. It's orb of electricity, with marginally higher max damage, lower expected damage, and no secondary effect. It scales well, but I'm hesitant to call a 4th level spell overpowered for what it does at 10th level, let alone 15th. elemental dart similarly seems only somewhat better than sorching ray at the level you get it.

Yes we are talking about the scaling. Elemental Dart you can choose which of the 4 elements on the fly and the average damage at CL 11 is 5d6+50 but with a fort for half and elemental resists. That is the average damage of 67.5 vs 42 damage, an extra 25 damage. And with a rod of empower you also boost the +10 for 1d6+10 is rolling for 11 to 16. Thus the average damage becomes 100 instead of 63. This is before a fort save or any resists.

Similar scaling things with Lightning Lance.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not sure about "overpowered", but I'll go ahead and list what I think is best in slot?

0th: Detect Magic. Most other cantrips/orisons are just too niche, and in such a magical world, you'll have call to cast this far more often than you'd think.

1st: Cure Light Wounds. I know, "an ounce of prevention" and all that, but realistically most adventurers (and most people) just don't prevent everything, and that means we're gonna need our pound of cure. And pound for pound, you're not gonna get a better "heals to costs" ratio than Cure Light Wounds without invoking metamagic cheese in a very specific way. Whether from buying, crafting, or random loot drops, you're going to want to get at least two of these as quickly as possible. The worse healing-per-action doesn't matter because all healing spells are cast out-of-combat anyway - and unlike cure critical, you won't feel like you're wasting cure light if you heal a commoner on the brink of death. There's probably a better lvl 1 spell, something with more cheese potential, but this is so rock-solid and absolutely vital to basically every party in existence that it's hard to not give it the spot.

2nd: Alter Self. Abusable depending on caster's creature type.

3rd: Sticks And Stones. Any creature slain by negative levels rises either as the kind of creature that killed it (if it had a spawn ability connected to its negative level delivery ability), or as a wight (if it lacks such an ability), although since it's not from a spawn ability, it takes 24 hours. This spell doesn't even have a material component, so there's no even a negligible cost to kicking off a wightpocalypse with this spell. It's hard to say Anyspell takes this slot. There's enough limits on Anyspell that it's hard to call it overpowered just on theoretical versatility, and that's without considering its stiff competition. Even without S&S I probably would've said Alter Fortune before Anyspell.

4th: Polymorph. It's insane to me that somebody mentioned a blasting spell as the OP lvl 4 spell. Ooooo 26d6 damage, average 91 damage, that has to deal with SR and saves for half damage. Mmmm that's neat I guess, but I think I'll take the spell that gives me access to a solid chunk of the monster manuals, including the monster that will deal 105 damage every turn for 10 rounds. And can also have a breath weapon for AoE energy damage. If I had to pick something else...Scrying. Information advantage is no joke, so its OPness is more subtle, which is arguably better than Polymorph's in-your-face power depending on what makes the DM twitchy.

5th: Magic Jar. Lets you play around with longterm monster cheese earlier than PAO or Shapechange. Good for the same reasons they are.

6th: Planar Binding. Even without wish-loop cheese, binding outsiders into your service for a nominal fee is easily top-tier minionmancy, and unlike most minionmancy spells, it's extremely open-ended on what monsters you can get, and what you can get them to do for you, and how long the service lasts. Once again, I don't think Greater Anyspell is bad, but the limitations on it make it hard to call overpowered period, let alone when it's competing with something like this. Even without PB, I would've said Contingency before Anyspell.

7th: Limited Wish. It's Greater Anyspell, but with even wider spell access (in terms of both spell level and lists available), and it's combat-castable. It's essentially giving yourself a spontaneous spell slot that can cast about any low/mid level spell in the game, in exchange for a bit of XP.

8th: Polymorph Any Object. Permanent transformations, anything into anything else. A great deal of cheese potential.

9th: Shapechange. Nice long duration, access to most every monster ability in existence - a good number of which let you cast other 9th lvl spells, including at least Astral Projection and Wish (two other spells that are easily OP for their level despite being 9th lvl spells).

[RandomPeasant]

Both Anyspells.

Big disagree with that. anyspell only lets you prepare spells you have access to already, puts you down a level, and can't be changed during the day. It doesn't even work with non-domain slots. If you can find a spell that's good enough to be powerful under those circumstances, that's the problem, not anyspell.


grease

Calling out grease but not color spray or sleep seems really weird to me.


1 power word pain

power word pain is a weird spell. It's very good against PCs, because there's basically nothing a 1st level party can do to stop someone who gets tagged with it from dying. But in the hands of PCs it's not great, because it doesn't kill its target very quickly. As a 1st level party it's difficult to arrange a circumstance where you can tag someone with it and wait for them to die without expending further resources.


Honestly, I'm not sure it's possible for a 9th level spell to be overpowered, given what the expected baseline for this echelon of spells is: imprisoning enemies forever, getting their gods to excommunicate them, and creating your own dimension.

If you got wish as a SLA, that would be overpowered. shapechange is arguably overpowered (especially with generous readings), but as you note the game is so nuts by this point that it's hard to say for sure.


Command Undead

command undead is another weird one. The ceiling is really high (Revived Fossil T-Rex is busted as a minion), but completely dependent on your DM setting you up with the opportunity to recruit something broken.


Shivering Touch, Glibness

Those are good shouts. glibness is just absolutely broken if not stealth-nerfed, and ability damage in general is broken strong. ray of stupidity probably deserves a mention as it punches out any animal, though it's not as impressive as shivering touch because animals are much easier to handle than dragons.


Yes we are talking about the scaling. Elemental Dart you can choose which of the 4 elements on the fly and the average damage at CL 11 is 5d6+50 but with a fort for half and elemental resists. That is the average damage of 67.5 vs 42 damage, an extra 25 damage. And with a rod of empower you also boost the +10 for 1d6+10 is rolling for 11 to 16. Thus the average damage becomes 100 instead of 63. This is before a fort save or any resists.

Similar scaling things with Lightning Lance.

I don't think that's a correct reading of Empower Spell. You boost "variable numeric effects". While "+10" is numeric, it is not variable. And, yes, you do more damage than scorching ray at 11th level. But how often are you casting scorching ray at 11th level? At 3rd level, when you might actually cast it, scorching ray is just better. lightning lance is an even worse place, as it does damage in multiple chunks (making you more vulnerable to resistance), but you can't get around that by choosing the best type. These aren't bad spells by any means, but they're a hard spell for "most overpowered" at levels that contain, respectively, alter self and polymorph.

[Ramza00]

1d6+10 is a variable. Empower spell with the feat literally uses magic missile as an example, aka one of those spells with a random roll plus a number get the result then multiple the result by 1.5.

[RandomPeasant]

1d6+10 is a variable. Empower spell with the feat literally uses magic missile as an example, aka one of those spells with a random roll plus a number get the result then multiple the result by 1.5.

Yes, and you're supposed to modify the thing you roll (the 1d4) by 1.5. You can't roll "+1". The example does not change the plain text of the feat. Regardless, "it's a good use of a low level slot at high level" is not a compelling argument.

[Thunder999]

I'd say Wall of Smoke, it's 1st level but nearly as good as a Sculpted Stinking Cloud.

[bekeleven]

The theory I heard was that Power Word Pain (1D6/Round for, at low levels, 10 rounds) and Power Word Distract (1 target is flat-footed until their next action) got their levels swapped.

On topic: Some of my favorite spells. As I go down this list I notice a lot of core spells in it. I think this is because they covered all of the most general spells in core, and realized (justa bit) how good casters were. This means that the further you get from it, the more the spells get specific and/or depowered.

1: Disguise Self, Silent Image, Comprehend Languages, Nerveskitter (not busted at level 1, but scales into a great use of 1st level slots at lv20)

2: Alter Self, Invisiblity, Detect Thoughts, Heroics, Ray of Stupidity, Whispercast

3: Disobedience (blank a whole spell school, all day), Haste, Major Image, Fly

4: DDoor, Friendly Fire, Minor Creation, Greater Invis, Polymorph, Voice of the Dragon, Wall of Salt, Shadow Conjuration, Celerity

5: Dominate Person, Persistent Image, Shadow Evocation (DM Dependent), Teleport.

6: Contingency, Disintegrate, Freezing Glance, Permanent Image (I will write this up one day, I swear)

7: Glass Strike, Body of War, Magnificent Mansion (tell me it's not great), Simulacrum, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Unicorn Heart, Limited Wish, Vile Rebellion

8: Mass Dominate Person, Mind Blank, PAO (just ban it), Greater Shadow Evoc, Moment of Prescience, Dark Chaos spells

9: Wish, Chain Contingency, Dominate Monster, Gate, Shades, Shapechange (ban this too), Mindrape, Ice Assassin (In fact ban a lot of things), Teleport Through Time, Time Stop

[Soranar]

Calling out grease but not color spray or sleep seems really weird to me.


Grease can work on epic monsters and characters

The other 2 can't, they're good at level 1 and 2, that's about it.

[RandomPeasant]

3: Disobedience (blank a whole spell school, all day), Celerity, Haste, Major Image, Fly

celerity is a 4th level spell, not 3rd. But it is definitely in contention for the best spell at that level.


Grease can work on epic monsters and characters

The other 2 can't, they're good at level 1 and 2, that's about it.

It can, but it's only ever a debuff on its own. color spray ends a fight at 1st level. grease might be better at epic levels, but no 1st level spell is getting a meaningful amount of use at that point.

[Biggus]

1 Nerveskitter, Grease, Entangle
2 Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Alter Self*, Guidance of the Avatar, Wings of Cover*, Wraithstrike*, Luminous Armor
3 Mass Resist Energy, Shivering Touch*, Venomfire*
4 Orb spells*, Black Tentacles, Polymorph*, Celerity*, Consumptive Field*
5 Draconic Polymorph*
6 Contingency
7 Amber Sarcophagus*, Blasphemy* etc., Simulacrum*, Greater Consumptive Field*
8 Maze*, Polymorph Any Object*, Greater Celerity*, Frostfell
9 Shapechange*, Foresight, Disjunction*, Gate*

*IMO these spells are not so much overpowered as badly designed; I don't think moving them up a level or two would really solve the problems with them

[Venger]

It can, but it's only ever a debuff on its own. color spray ends a fight at 1st level. grease might be better at epic levels, but no 1st level spell is getting a meaningful amount of use at that point.

Protection from evil and its derivatives do. Come to think of it, since it's useful from 1-20, it really deserves the spot at 1, not power word pain, which is useful at 1, but like sleep, rapidly goes out of fashion. No 1st level spell should entirely nullify an entire school of magic.

[RandomPeasant]

4 Orb spells*

I'll be honest, I don't really get the hate for the orbs. They're the best think to stack metamagic on, but it's pretty clearly metamagic stacking that's the problem there. A supercharged combust or scorching ray still kills basically anything it touches, and without metamagic an orb is "not enough damage to kill someone" plus "mediocre-to-decent status effect", which seems completely fair for a 4th level spell slot.


Blasphemy* etc.,

I will actually defend the blasphemy line of spells pretty strongly. "Kill the mooks, debuff the big bad" is exactly the sort of thing you'd want a spell to do. The issue is that both CL and HD vary wildly with level, so it's very easy for the spell to delete opponents or do nothing. But that's issues with the system around the spell, not the spell itself.


Maze*,

What seems game-breaking to you about this? It's certainly powerful, but finger of death just kills people and is lower level. Even stun ray will be better in a sizeable chunk of circumstances.


Foresight

I strongly disagree with this. Mechanically, what foresight does is not very impressive. It gives you some very small bonuses and a slight advantage when being ambushed. Plus whatever you think "a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself", which is not really well-defined enough to be reliable, and not all that impressive regardless. It's useful in the rocket launcher tag of high optimization games because going first is critical, but in most circumstances this could be a 7th level spell and only get picked when the slot cost stopped mattering.


Protection from evil and its derivatives do. Come to think of it, since it's useful from 1-20, it really deserves the spot at 1, not power word pain, which is useful at 1, but like sleep, rapidly goes out of fashion. No 1st level spell should entirely nullify an entire school of magic.

mindblank is better than protection from evil at high level. There's some marginal use against non-[Mind-Affecting] possession effects, but "maybe you add this to your buff routine because it sometimes matters and the slot it worthless" is not what I'd consider meaningful.

[Zanos]

What seems game-breaking to you about this? It's certainly powerful, but finger of death just kills people and is lower level. Even stun ray will be better in a sizeable chunk of circumstances.
Maze has no save, and typically no relevant immunity.

[Thurbane]

Foresight is an interesting one. As written, it gives some extremely underpowered mechanical benefits for a 9th level spell. Fluff/RAI it is almost godmode.


Maze has no save, and typically no relevant immunity.

Basically all it does is hold up the enemy for a max of 10 minutes, though. Far less, unless it has an Int penalty. Is it better than a glorified Solid Fog?

[Biggus]

I'll be honest, I don't really get the hate for the orbs. They're the best think to stack metamagic on, but it's pretty clearly metamagic stacking that's the problem there. A supercharged combust or scorching ray still kills basically anything it touches, and without metamagic an orb is "not enough damage to kill someone" plus "mediocre-to-decent status effect", which seems completely fair for a 4th level spell slot.

The problem is that they're save: no, and SR: no, and that most creatures have low enough touch AC that hitting is them is very easy. Orb of Force in particular is basically impossible to resist unless you have Forceward or Ray Deflection up.

Things like metamagic reducers make the problem much worse, but they're not the whole problem; there are quite a few creatures out there with very low HPs for their CR for example.

As I noted, I think they're fundamentally flawed; attack spells that are almost impossible to resist are bad design IMO, doubly so when their level is as low as 4th.



I will actually defend the blasphemy line of spells pretty strongly. "Kill the mooks, debuff the big bad" is exactly the sort of thing you'd want a spell to do. The issue is that both CL and HD vary wildly with level, so it's very easy for the spell to delete opponents or do nothing. But that's issues with the system around the spell, not the spell itself.

There are too many ways to increase your caster level in 3.5, some of which can increase it well beyond your character level. As long as those exist, an area effect no-save-just-die is bad design.



What seems game-breaking to you about this? It's certainly powerful, but finger of death just kills people and is lower level. Even stun ray will be better in a sizeable chunk of circumstances.

Again, the fact that unless you have SR or Greater Spell Immunity, it's impossible to resist.



I strongly disagree with this. Mechanically, what foresight does is not very impressive. It gives you some very small bonuses and a slight advantage when being ambushed. Plus whatever you think "a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself", which is not really well-defined enough to be reliable, and not all that impressive regardless.

The spell gives plenty of examples, which make clear how powerful it is:


you would be warned in advance if a rogue were about to attempt a sneak attack on you, or if a creature were about to leap out from a hiding place, or if an attacker were specifically targeting you with a spell or ranged weapon [...] In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself—duck, jump right, close your eyes, and so on [...] Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay



Basically all it does is hold up the enemy for a max of 10 minutes, though.

True, but the average battle lasts 5 rounds or less. You should have seen the looks on my players' faces last week when the party's main damage-dealer suddenly vanished from the fight.

[Zanos]

Basically all it does is hold up the enemy for a max of 10 minutes, though. Far less, unless it has an Int penalty. Is it better than a glorified Solid Fog?
Holding up an enemy can be a pretty big deal. If you have a fight with a cleric and his bodyguard of elite undead, you can just ban the cleric to the maze dimension, usually with no chance to resist, cleanup the rest of the encounter, and then setup whatever traps you want for when he comes back, since he has to come back to where he was when the spell was cast.

If your DM doesn't have singular powerful threats in his encounter it loses a lot of its luster, but it's a very useful spell. I don't know if it's overpowered, since it's up there competing against other 8ths, but it certainly is a spell that can be incredibly effective in a wide range of scenarios with little chance to resist.

[AvatarVecna]

There are too many ways to increase your caster level in 3.5, some of which can increase it well beyond your character level. As long as those exist, an area effect no-save-just-die is bad design.

Someone in another thread pointed out that the Half-Fiend template gives Blasphemy if the base creature has 11+ HD, and the CL is equal to your HD. Plenty of creatures end up having tons of HD for their CR, and this combos into being a problem almost regardless of how well-intentioned the DM is.

Half-Fiend Shambling Mound can be advanced to 24 HD/CR 13. If the party is 20th level, it's just barely strong enough to still give them XP for defeating it, but also they're just barely strong enough to "only" get no-save dazed/weakened, instead of also getting no-save paralyzed. And enemies close to its own level? If a lvl 13 party comes by, it'll just kill them flat out.

[Akal Saris]

Basically all it does is hold up the enemy for a max of 10 minutes, though. Far less, unless it has an Int penalty. Is it better than a glorified Solid Fog?

Just speaking as somebody who has DM'd a lot at higher levels but not actually played (#foreverDM), Maze is quite a frustrating spell, because generally most high level opponents have a solid chance to save vs spells, and Maze changes the equation so that the NPC almost always comes out of the spell against some very frightening odds, even if it's a spellcaster coming out in a few rounds.

[Biggus]

Someone in another thread pointed out that the Half-Fiend template gives Blasphemy if the base creature has 11+ HD, and the CL is equal to your HD. Plenty of creatures end up having tons of HD for their CR, and this combos into being a problem almost regardless of how well-intentioned the DM is.

Half-Fiend Shambling Mound can be advanced to 24 HD/CR 13. If the party is 20th level, it's just barely strong enough to still give them XP for defeating it, but also they're just barely strong enough to "only" get no-save dazed/weakened, instead of also getting no-save paralyzed. And enemies close to its own level? If a lvl 13 party comes by, it'll just kill them flat out.

Heh, I hadn't even thought of that. Elementals would be even worse: half-fiend 48HD elemental, CR20...

[RandomPeasant]

Maze has no save, and typically no relevant immunity.

stun ray stuns the target for a round with no save, and doesn't shunt them off to a private dimension where you can't do anything to them. It's true that you can ambush the target when they come back from the maze dimension, but if you're spending an 8th level spell slot plus additional resources to set off an ambush, it is probably okay if that wins you a fight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying maze is a bad spell. But I don't buy that it's so fundamentally powerful as to be conceptually inappropriate.


Foresight is an interesting one. As written, it gives some extremely underpowered mechanical benefits for a 9th level spell. Fluff/RAI it is almost godmode.

I'm not even sure it's godmode by RAI. It's supposed to give you "a general idea" of what you might do "to best protect yourself". Even under a very general reading, that's something like "there's an enchanter in the next room, make sure you cast mindblank before opening the door", not "the villains one weakness is hidden at a vault located here protected by this password". The examples bear this out. "You should close your eyes now" is not exactly game breaking advice, even if you are about to fight a Medusa.


The problem is that they're save: no, and SR: no, and that most creatures have low enough touch AC that hitting is them is very easy. Orb of Force in particular is basically impossible to resist unless you have Forceward or Ray Deflection up.

But they're energy damage (meaning they are vulnerable to resistances or immunities), and not even particularly large amounts of it (meaning they are vulnerable to simply having a lot of HP). It's true that a Hill Giant doesn't really have any way to stop you from smacking it with an orb of force. But it doesn't care because an unmodified orb of force deals an average of 24.5 damage at CL 7 at it has a 102 hit points. As a 7th level specialist Wizard with high INT, you can spend every single 4th level spell slot you have on orbs of force and still not kill it. Alternatively, you could cast a charm monster that allows both saves and SR and have a better than 50% chance to take it out of the fight for a single spell slot.


There are too many ways to increase your caster level in 3.5, some of which can increase it well beyond your character level. As long as those exist, an area effect no-save-just-die is bad design.

But the point is that you can equally say that as long as a spell that scales with CL powerfully exists, those things are broken. And it seem to me that CL boosting is far more conceptually problematic than spells that clear out minions.


Again, the fact that unless you have SR or Greater Spell Immunity, it's impossible to resist.

maze is not impossible to resist. It has a weird resistance scheme where the thing that protects you is an INT check, and therefore neither particularly easy to boost nor particularly broadly applicable, but you absolutely can resist it. It is also literally incapable of killing anything on its own. 8th level spells are supposed to be very powerful, it is okay if popping one lets you arrange highly favorable tactical circumstances for your side.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Level 0: Fire Eyes (MotW) - a cantrip that's actually useful in combat and lasts long enough to use even at level 1 if you scout a little. Smokesticks are cheap. Not really OP, but pretty good for level 0.
Level 1: Summon Marked Homunculus (Dragonmarked) - a 1 hour/level duration summon from a level 1 spell. And it scales with your dragonmark, so useful for much longer than other level 1 summons.
Level 2: Alter Self (PHB), no question - especially if you're non-humanoid. The power and versatility on offer are way out of line with the rest of the level.
Level 3: Venomfire (SK) - uncapped damage, hour/level duration and scaling with the number of poison attacks make this much too powerful for a 3rd level spell.
Level 4: Polymorph (PHB) - another "no question" level i think. Polymorph is simply too good for a 4th level spell if you play it to its full potential.
Level 5: Unfettered Heroism (RoE) - because getting free action points when the system is designed for them to be limited does not work out well (for game balance). Also Draconic Polymorph of course.
Level 6: Shalanta's Delicate Disc (LEoF) - because paying only 200gp for a 5th level spell from an item makes a mockery of item creation, assuming you don't get around the cost entirely.
Level 7: Necrotic Tumor (LM) - because it's permanent, non mind-affecting Dominate Monster two levels before you get regular Dominate Monster.
Level 8: Polymorph Any Object (PHB) - because it's Polymorph, only even better.
Level 9: Shapechange (PHB) - for the same reasons as Polymorph only it's even worse

Those are the spells i think are inherently too powerful for their level or outright breaking the game if used (specifically Unfettered Heroism and Shalanta's Delicate Disc for the latter).
Most other powerful spells are simply good instead of outright OP unless you use them in specific combos.

[noce]

Darkbolt fron Darkness domain is a 5th level spells that:
- does a total of 14d8 unresistable damage to living creatures
- will save or either dazes up to 7 creatures for a round, or a creature for up to 7 rounds, or a creature for 1 round if it doesn't save 7 will saves

I like the versatility it gives, and I find quite rare for a single spell to be a good bfc, a good save or lose and a decent damage spell all in the same time.

[Xenken]

Thank GOD. We needed a thread like this so, so badly. Do you know how hard it is to just find a list of spells that are good?! I was genuinely on the verge of just pulling up all of them and going line by line.

Uh, let's see what I got here:

1st: Conjure Ice Beast I, Ice Slick, Impending Stones, Entangle, (+1 to Grease)
2nd: Kelpstrand, Web, Lesser Celerity, Luminous Armor, Ray of Stupidity, Dark Way
3rd: Disobedience, Flame Sands, Primal Instinct

there's also the classic combo between Snowsight (1st) and Obscuring Snow (2nd).

[Biggus]

It's true that a Hill Giant doesn't really have any way to stop you from smacking it with an orb of force. But it doesn't care because an unmodified orb of force deals an average of 24.5 damage at CL 7 at it has a 102 hit points.

Well, no, a Hill Giant doesn't care, because it has high HPs for a CR7 monster. There are half a dozen CR7 monsters in the MM alone which have 33-45HPs, and they definitely do care about 24.5HPs of irresistable damage.



But the point is that you can equally say that as long as a spell that scales with CL powerfully exists, those things are broken. And it seem to me that CL boosting is far more conceptually problematic than spells that clear out minions.

CL boosting does exist, and the question was "what spells are overpowered?" not "what spells would be overpowered, given the following houserules?". As long as those abilities are part of the game, it's not just a minion-clearing spell, it's a potential TPK spell.

FWIW I agree that extreme CL boosting is bad design too.



maze is not impossible to resist. It has a weird resistance scheme where the thing that protects you is an INT check, and therefore neither particularly easy to boost nor particularly broadly applicable, but you absolutely can resist it.

That doesn't resist it, it just allows you to escape. Even with a sky-high Int you're out of the game for a full round at least, which when high-level fights are often over in 2-3 rounds is not trivial. And if you're not an Int-based caster, it's very unlikely you have a high enough Int to have a good chance of escaping first go.

[Kalkra]

Yes, and you're supposed to modify the thing you roll (the 1d4) by 1.5. You can't roll "+1". The example does not change the plain text of the feat. Regardless, "it's a good use of a low level slot at high level" is not a compelling argument.

FWIW the PF FAQ explicitly says that you multiply the numerical bonus as well as the die roll, and it would be really weird if the example didn't work the way they said it did. 1d4+1 is variable and numeric, ergo you multiply 1d4+1 by 1.5. That's a valid reading within the plain text, and has the advantage of being what the designers meant when they wrote it.

Also, shoutout to Wieldskill for letting you use trained-only skill checks and also any one weapon or armor, both of which can be situationally useful, and also Luminous Armor, although Alter Self can probably increase your AC by more. They do stack, though. And I can't mention ability damage without mentioning Lesser Restoration, which not only heals ability damage but also means that you never need to sleep again. And how has nobody mentioned Rope Trick? Sure, it doesn't have a lot in the way of raw power, but it can prevent a TPK, and not a lot of other 2nd-level spells can do that.

[RandomPeasant]

Lesser Celerity

lesser celerity seems to be of extremely marginal value. A move action outside your turn is of extremely marginal value, especially since it dazes you just like the full version.


Well, no, a Hill Giant doesn't care, because it has high HPs for a CR7 monster. There are half a dozen CR7 monsters in the MM alone which have 33-45HPs, and they definitely do care about 24.5HPs of irresistable damage.

Sure, there are monsters that are more vulnerable to orb of force than charm monster. That's good, because it means there are circumstances where you would want to prepare one spell over another. Just like you probably want to prepare black tentacles over either if you expect to fight a large group of weak monsters. But let's suppose you are fighting a Nymph, which has 27 HP and could plausibly be killed by a reasonably lucky damage roll from an orb of force. Is the spell broken in this context? I don't think so. The Nymph has a touch AC of 17, which means that a 14 dexterity Wizard has only a 50% chance to hit it, and has to roll well to kill it if he does. That seems fine to me. It's not like the 4th level spell slot he's spending is a trivial resource either. He's only got maybe four of the things, and even here it's not a one-and-done win.


CL boosting does exist, and the question was "what spells are overpowered?" not "what spells would be overpowered, given the following houserules?". As long as those abilities are part of the game, it's not just a minion-clearing spell, it's a potential TPK spell.

I'm not objecting to calling it powerful, I'm objecting to saying it's fundamentally unworkable and needs to be changed. I agree that "this would be fine with houserules" would be a bad argument that it was balanced, but "this should be nerfed" when nerfing something else would fix the problem more effectively is going too far in the other direction.


That doesn't resist it, it just allows you to escape.

And fire resistance doesn't completely negate a fireball, just cause you to take less damage from it. stun ray, as noted, stuns for a round automatically and up to five on a failed save. maze is an 8th level spell. It doesn't kill anyone. You are spending what is either the highest or second-highest level spell available to you to either split an encounter into two easier encounters or give your party a (somewhat variable) amount of prep time for an encounter. Is that good? Sure. Is that so fundamentally powerful as to be unworkable? I don't see it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That doesn't resist it, it just allows you to escape. Even with a sky-high Int you're out of the game for a full round at least, which when high-level fights are often over in 2-3 rounds is not trivial. And if you're not an Int-based caster, it's very unlikely you have a high enough Int to have a good chance of escaping first go.
Being out of the fight for a bit may not be trivial, but as a single-target close range spell that also prevents you from attacking the target it's nowhere near OP for an 8th level spell.
As a 4th or 5th it'd be impressive, but for 8th it's at best mediocre. It even allows SR, making it rather unreliable against most of the things players fight at those levels.
It doesn't even prevent the target from acting. He's free to use his time in the maze to buff up and get ready to ruin your day when it ends. Not exactly the pinnacle of BFC there.

As for PC's there are plenty of ways to defend against it even ignoring SR.
Rings of Counterspelling or Spell Battle, maneuvers like Manticore Parry, counterspelling, various items that block spells, using total concealment to avoid being targeted in the first place, breaking LoS or LoE with an immediate action or anything that blocks teleportation for example.
At least some of those are well within any players ability to get by the time the spell becomes an issue. It's no different from getting Death Ward or Mind Blank in some form as you level.

Not to mention the expectation that PC's operate in groups, which makes single-target disables a lot less threatening all by itself.
Being forced to sit on your ass for a few rounds is hardly the worst thing a high level caster can do to you, even discounting spells that offer saves.


lesser celerity seems to be of extremely marginal value. A move action outside your turn is of extremely marginal value, especially since it dazes you just like the full version.
It may not be as useful as regular Celerity, but it's still a "get out of full attack/spell area" option other classes don't usually get.
Being dazed isn't great but it generally beats being dead, especially if you're dazed behind cover and/or out of melee/charge range.

It's useful in most of the same situations that Abrupt Jaunt is useful in, with the disadvantages of still having to cross the intervening space and being dazed after.
Not something you prepare every day, but it's a good candidate for a ring of spell storing, a wand or whatever similar option is your go to for situational spells like that.

[RandomPeasant]

Compare it to, for instance, irresistible dance, which is certainly a bit harder to use (requiring a touch attack) and somewhat easier to stop (mindblank beats it and it doesn't work on a wider range of creatures than "minotaurs"), but has the same SR Yes/Save No setup and locks down the target in a way that not only allows you to beat on them, but makes it much easier. maze is by no means a terrible spell. But it is an 8th level spell, and those are allowed to be powerful.

[nedz]

I will actually defend the blasphemy line of spells pretty strongly. "Kill the mooks, debuff the big bad" is exactly the sort of thing you'd want a spell to do. The issue is that both CL and HD vary wildly with level, so it's very easy for the spell to delete opponents or do nothing. But that's issues with the system around the spell, not the spell itself.

The trouble with Blasphemy etc. from a DMing POV is that you have to fine tune the encounter between being ineffective and a TPK.

[Ramza00]

Honestly blasphemy feels like a relic from previous editions. In 3.5 HD automatically gives you for ever HD you get +1/2 or +1/3 to your save. Likewise most ability save dcs go up +1 for every 2 HD due to spell levels, or monster abilities that scale by HD by that formula. It is more granular the d20 curve of not total fail or total success this save system.

Blasphemy is HD=CL scaling and there is no d20 roll just the effect. Thus the spell is very good or very waste of an action and a spell slot. The scaling seems out of wrack with the general philosophy of a d20 game that 3.5 tries to be.

[noce]

I second Kelpstrand, and I see that nobody mentioned Wall of Thorns yet: no save no SR, long lasting and wide area, anyone with less than 30 STR and no means to teleport is just shut down, higher STR is still greatly slowed. I used Wall of Thorns in the battlefield of a demons Vs city guards fight, right on the portal from which demons were coming...coupled with Rain of Roses (another good spell but appropriately 7th level).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I second Kelpstrand, and I see that nobody mentioned Wall of Thorns yet: no save no SR, long lasting and wide area, anyone with less than 30 STR and no means to teleport is just shut down, higher STR is still greatly slowed. I used Wall of Thorns in the battlefield of a demons Vs city guards fight, right on the portal from which demons were coming...coupled with Rain of Roses (another good spell but appropriately 7th level).

Why would someone mention Wall of Thorns? It's good, but a spell that only really hinders (non-flying, non-teleporting) melee (which usually have the strength and AC to force their way through by CR 9+) really isn't overpowered for 5th level spells.

Neither is Kelpstrand for 2nd. It's pretty good, but pretty good isn't overpowered.
Considering the limited nature of spells i'd say "pretty good" is where the balance should be, otherwise there'd be no point playing a spellcaster.

[Troacctid]

It looks like two of my picks, lightning lance and polymorph any object, have been brought up already, but I don't think anyone has mentioned storm touch and scalding touch yet. Both of them suffer from an odd problem where the rules on exactly how they work were ambiguous when they were first printed, and then Rules Compendium put a foot down to resolve that ambiguity in a way that just happened to break them both in half.

Another one that's busted for rules reasons is ray of resurgence, which as written has the ability to remove any Strength penalty, without the magical sources limitation of lesser restoration. This means it can remove racial Strength penalties, throwing chargen balance out of whack with only a 1st level slot.

Wings of flurry also stands out as a spell that is aggressively strong for its level. With its uncapped scaling, unresistable damage type, pinpoint targeting, and a save-or-suck on top of it all, it could easily be one or two levels higher and still be one of the best blasting spells in the game. It really says something that it, along with arcane fusion and wings of cover, are so strong that they function as de facto buffs for the sorcerer as a class just by virtue of being exclusive.

Summon marked homunculus has tight restrictions on who can use it, and that's a good thing, because it's dramatically underleveled for an hours/level summon of such a powerful utility creature. Call faithful servants plays in this space as well, creating powerful permanent minions at no cost.

[Ramza00]

I second Kelpstrand, and I see that nobody mentioned Wall of Thorns yet: no save no SR, long lasting and wide area, anyone with less than 30 STR and no means to teleport is just shut down, higher STR is still greatly slowed. I used Wall of Thorns in the battlefield of a demons Vs city guards fight, right on the portal from which demons were coming...coupled with Rain of Roses (another good spell but appropriately 7th level).

Wall of Sand (spell compendium) is another one. There are two different versions of the spell with the same name, I am talking the one that is a fog but better and shapable with strength checks, blindness, concentration checks, and suffocation risk. The other wall of sand (sandstorm) is a wall.

But yeah the problem with Solid Fog, Wall of Sand, and several other spells is Freedom of Movement is a big nope.

[Kalkra]

In terms of spells that are unbalanced and should probably be banned, nerfed, or houseruled in some way I suppose you could throw in Wall of Salt, and to a lesser extent Create Lantern Archon. Wall of Salt is just free money, and you can use that free money to pay all the Lantern Archons you create as a 3rd-level spell, and also to pay a Cleric to cast Restoration on you every now and again. Settle down in a city with a 7th-level Cleric and you have no need nor reason to ever adventure again.

Sure, that's blatantly abusive, but that's what this thread's all about.

[Xenken]

Summon marked homunculus has tight restrictions on who can use it, and that's a good thing, because it's dramatically underleveled for an hours/level summon of such a powerful utility creature.

Could you explain this spell more to me? I never quite understood what you got out of it compared to Unseen Servant. It can use attack rolls...but it has 5 hp and no attack immunity, which doesn't seem super great to take into combat.

Also, what's up with Storm Touch and Scalding Touch? How did added rulings break them?

[Zanos]

Could you explain this spell more to me? I never quite understood what you got out of it compared to Unseen Servant. It can use attack rolls...but it has 5 hp and no attack immunity, which doesn't seem super great to take into combat.

Also, what's up with Storm Touch and Scalding Touch? How did added rulings break them?
You can summon an arbalester with a least mark, which is a +7 to hit medium light crossbow with 5 hp and 16 AC. That's pretty good for a summon that lasts an hour at level 1. Big improvement over a celestial dog for one round. Frankly if you have time before an encounter you could just use all your level 1 slots to summon those and probably stomp the fight.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Could you explain this spell more to me? I never quite understood what you got out of it compared to Unseen Servant. It can use attack rolls...but it has 5 hp and no attack immunity, which doesn't seem super great to take into combat.

Also, what's up with Storm Touch and Scalding Touch? How did added rulings break them?

The main problem with Summon Marked Homunculus is that it lasts 1 hour/level. Other summon spells generally only last 1 round/level. It's a massive power boost.

As for Storm Touch and Scalding Touch the problem is that they let you do 1 attack per caster level.
Rules Compendium changed the rules for weapon-like spells to making all those attacks as part of the standard action used to cast it, so a 15th level wizard would make 15 touch attacks - all of them at full BAB - for 9d6 damage each.

[Kalkra]

Also, what's up with Storm Touch and Scalding Touch? How did added rulings break them?

The Rules Compendium made it clear that those spells (and others) have all of their attacks happen when you cast them. In other words, Storm Touch lets you make one touch attack per caster level, each doing 9d6 damage, all in a standard action.

[Anthrowhale]

I agree with several of the spells mentioned here.

A missing one is Surge of Fortune which seems broken good at level 4. The ability to declare that you roll a 20 is incredible when you are wielding a vorpal weapon (as an example). It's like crit-fishing with dynamite, allowing a mid-level character to have a credible chance against even epic opponents.

[Thunder999]

Blasphemy (and other alignment versions) are just inherently too good.

As a player they let you cheese almost anything with enough CL boosting (Honestly divine spell power and a prayer bead of karma is enough to win many otherwise reasonable fights). Still enemies at that level usually have some SR to protect themselves.

But where it really shows up is monsters.

A Balor is a CR 20 monster with at will CL 20 Blasphemy, as a result in can indefinitely daze an entire party of 20th level characters, give it any sort of backup (which it will almost certainly have, everyone know how don't just throw a single CR=APL monster at a party) and that's a guaranteed TPK played right.

Also I'll never understand what the Rules Compendium writers were thinking with that nonsense.

[Xenken]

The main problem with Summon Marked Homunculus is that it lasts 1 hour/level. Other summon spells generally only last 1 round/level. It's a massive power boost.

But...it's still just 5 hp. Compare SNA I Wolf with 13 or the same wolf from Ice Beast I with 31. Seems like a standard enemy just...hits it once and it dies early, which would undermine a lot of the duration value. It does effectively give you your action back, but still it doesn't seem great...

Maybe I'm just overestimating how much damage low level enemies do at range?


As for Storm Touch and Scalding Touch the problem is that they let you do 1 attack per caster level.
Rules Compendium changed the rules for weapon-like spells to making all those attacks as part of the standard action used to cast it, so a 15th level wizard would make 15 touch attacks - all of them at full BAB - for 9d6 damage each.

HAHAHA, that's so cool! You Jojo punch people and they fackin die. The fact that I only just learned about this now is a crime.


Anyway, spells. I'll put (?) next to ones I'm not entirely confident in.

1st: Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter (not great for level 1-2 though), Unseen Servant, Blockade(?), Instant of Power(?)
2nd: Arcane Turmoil(?), Create Magic Tattoo, SNA II for tunneling badgers, Blinding Spittle
3: Sleet Storm(?)

6: Contingency, Valiant Steed


Ebon Eyes/Darkness is the store budget version of the funny snowsight combo, given it's worse in every way with 10min instead of an hour and also partial instead of total concealment, and more natural vision mode counters.

[Troacctid]

In addition to the homunculus's impressive action economy in combat, you can also share its senses, so it doubles as an arcane eye effect several spell levels ahead of schedule.

But...it's still just 5 hp. Compare SNA I Wolf with 13 or the same wolf from Ice Beast I with 31. Seems like a standard enemy just...hits it once and it dies early, which would undermine a lot of the duration value. It does effectively give you your action back, but still it doesn't seem great...

Maybe I'm just overestimating how much damage low level enemies do at range?
First off, it doesn't need to give you your action back, because it doesn't cost an action. It's a long-duration buff that's fairly trivial to pre-cast. So if the enemy spends actions killing it, you probably negated most of their turn without having to spend any actions yourself. Secondly, if they do kill it, it explodes for the equivalent of a magic missile's worth of damage—more, if the enemies are clustered around it.

[vasilidor]

I think Gate, especially when considering chain Gating, belongs on this list.

[RandomPeasant]

It may not be as useful as regular Celerity, but it's still a "get out of full attack/spell area" option other classes don't usually get.

Sure, it's not terrible. But there are a lot of limiting factors. Unlike Abrupt Jaunt, you physically move, so using it to dodge an attack means you still eat an AoO. And at the low levels where you're likely to put it to use, that AoO may be about the same as the attack you're dodging. At higher levels, you have better tools for juking attacks, like anklets of translocation.


Blasphemy is HD=CL scaling and there is no d20 roll just the effect. Thus the spell is very good or very waste of an action and a spell slot. The scaling seems out of wrack with the general philosophy of a d20 game that 3.5 tries to be.

It works that way against a single target, but in a multi-target situation it can easily have a meaningful, but not overwhelming, effect. The philosophical point is somewhat valid, but at the same time it really is much simpler to have a "mooks just die" effect rather than rolling saves and adjudicating an effect against each individually.


Considering the limited nature of spells i'd say "pretty good" is where the balance should be, otherwise there'd be no point playing a spellcaster.

It's also prone to getting you into vicious cycles. If you remove all the above average spells because people don't take the below-average ones, you haven't really fixed the problem, you've just moved the average so it's different spells that dominate people's selections and you have the exact same situation with some spells that some people really liked removed. Generally, spells should only be removed if they are overwhelmingly more powerful than the competition or structurally unworkable, and I can think of very few offensive spells that fit into either category.


In terms of spells that are unbalanced and should probably be banned, nerfed, or houseruled in some way I suppose you could throw in Wall of Salt, and to a lesser extent Create Lantern Archon. Wall of Salt is just free money

wall of salt isn't free money. It's a thing you can do every day that generates money for you. That's not an exploit, that's a job. If wall of salt is broken, the craft rules are equally so. The problem here is that breaking WBL allows you to break the game, not all the things that allow you to break WBL. Otherwise we have to consider "having an adventure that is set in a place with expensive furnishings in addition to normal loot" to be broken.


The Rules Compendium made it clear that those spells (and others) have all of their attacks happen when you cast them. In other words, Storm Touch lets you make one touch attack per caster level, each doing 9d6 damage, all in a standard action.

Yet another reason why the Rules Compendium was a bad idea and you should pretend it doesn't exist.


A Balor is a CR 20 monster with at will CL 20 Blasphemy, as a result in can indefinitely daze an entire party of 20th level characters, give it any sort of backup (which it will almost certainly have, everyone know how don't just throw a single CR=APL monster at a party) and that's a guaranteed TPK played right.

It'll have backup even on its own, because it also has a 100% summon of another Balor. But blasphemy is not the devastating lockdown effect you're presenting it as. It is certainly true that it will daze any (non-Evil) PC it hits. But if the party simply spreads out so that the Balor can't be within 20ft of all of them at the same time, someone will remain un-stunned and be able to beat down a Balor that spends all its actions locking down part of the party. A powerful effect, certainly, but high level combats involve throwing around powerful effects.

[Troacctid]

Yet another reason why the Rules Compendium was a bad idea and you should pretend it doesn't exist.
You can't really blame RC alone for breaking it. It was the PHB v3.5 that originally introduced the problem RC was fixing. In 3.0, this effect would have been fine—it used the rules for holding a charge, and everyone was happy. Then the 3.5 update came along and changed the rules for touch spells to make it so that you could no longer hold the charge on multiple chill touch attacks at a time, and at the same time failed to retemplate it to allow it to work like produce flame. This broke the intended functionality of the spell. The result was a dysfunction with no real solution: either you used all the attacks immediately; or you could only ever use it once and all the other attacks would be wasted; or you could cast it and bank the touch attacks indefinitely, with no limits or repercussions. So, even before RC, the "fair" version of the spell could be cast repeatedly during downtime with as much metamagic as desired and then kept in reserve for subsequent adventures at no spell slot cost.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Blasphemy (and other alignment versions) are just inherently too good.

As a player they let you cheese almost anything with enough CL boosting (Honestly divine spell power and a prayer bead of karma is enough to win many otherwise reasonable fights). Still enemies at that level usually have some SR to protect themselves.

But where it really shows up is monsters.

A Balor is a CR 20 monster with at will CL 20 Blasphemy, as a result in can indefinitely daze an entire party of 20th level characters, give it any sort of backup (which it will almost certainly have, everyone know how don't just throw a single CR=APL monster at a party) and that's a guaranteed TPK played right.

Also I'll never understand what the Rules Compendium writers were thinking with that nonsense.

By the time you fight CR 20 enemies you should have plenty of options to block, tank or avoid it.
There are many more defenses against spells than just saves or SR and expected WBL is part of balance. Not even counting cover.
Or you could just not cluster your party in a 40ft radius against an enemy you know has AoE attacks.

In practice Blasphemy is a mook killer without CL boosting, not a game breaking threat. A Balor fighting a party that is at its level has better things to do with his actions.


Sure, it's not terrible. But there are a lot of limiting factors. Unlike Abrupt Jaunt, you physically move, so using it to dodge an attack means you still eat an AoO. And at the low levels where you're likely to put it to use, that AoO may be about the same as the attack you're dodging. At higher levels, you have better tools for juking attacks, like anklets of translocation.
Use it when a melee enemy moves to a spot that threatens you instead of when he's attacking and you'll get away without an AoO. And it does fine against charges or AoE effects.
Anklets of Translocation are great but they only move you 10ft. They also take a swift action to activate so you can only use them on your turn, so they're useless for dodging charges or AoE.

I'm not saying that Lesser Celerity is the best spell ever but it does have its uses. Probably one of my favorite choices for a wand chamber along with Blockade and Wings of Cover.

[RandomPeasant]

You can't really blame RC alone for breaking it.

I can absolutely blame the RC for clarifying that the rules work in a bad way. I'm perfectly capable of declaring "this works in the way that isn't dumb" myself. If a book that is sold to me as fixing rules issues declares that things work in dumb ways instead, I feel entirely justified in ignoring it.


Use it when a melee enemy moves to a spot that threatens you instead of when he's attacking and you'll get away without an AoO.

It's not clear to me that doing that would work. Your immediate action doesn't happen inside another action, it happens either before the enemy has moved (in which case you have no way of knowing the enemy is moving to you, or knowing where is safe to move) or after the enemy has moved (in which case it is still in position to pull an AoO).

[noce]

I consider Heart of Earth to be particularly powerful for a 4th level spell.
You get a bonus against minor things for hours, plus temporary hp for hours, plus you could possibly get some level of fortification if you also cast other spells.
Plus, you can activate a rounds/lvl Stoneskin effect as a swift action.

So basically it's a contingent Stoneskin, with a shorter duration but a swift activation. Plus two or three carrying bonus effects until it wears off. And it doesn't even have the costly material component of Stoneskin. And for druids it's also a level lower than Stoneskin.

For clerics, a 2nd level spell I think should be mentioned is Tyche's Touch, used as a buff. It's a day long buff to your first four saves, it can be cast on allies, bonus type is uncommon, and will be a good use of your 2nd level slots for your entire career, especially at higher levels where encounters are shorter and you're less likely to burn through its charges (and you can more easily afford pearls of power).
I remember it being very useful on my Hammer of Moradin that only had 3 levels of cleric.

[Ramza00]

For clerics, a 2nd level spell I think should be mentioned is Tyche's Touch, used as a buff. It's a day long buff to your first four saves, it can be cast on allies, bonus type is uncommon, and will be a good use of your 2nd level slots for your entire career, especially at higher levels where encounters are shorter and you're less likely to burn through its charges (and you can more easily afford pearls of power).
I remember it being very useful on my Hammer of Moradin that only had 3 levels of cleric.

Yes Tyche Touch (sacred) is awesome. Also conviction (moral), mass conviction, and benediction (luck only allies not you) are also awesome but much shorter durations but this is not really a problem for caster level 6 makes it an hour and a rod of extend lesser makes it 2 hours. A cleric can never have enough spell slots due to these spells.

[Thunder999]

By the time you fight CR 20 enemies you should have plenty of options to block, tank or avoid it.
There are many more defenses against spells than just saves or SR and expected WBL is part of balance. Not even counting cover.
Or you could just not cluster your party in a 40ft radius against an enemy you know has AoE attacks.


Not clustering is possible, though very dependant on where the fight happens.

But what other defences are you thinking of? Daze is not a conditon you can easily become immune to, there's the Third Eye Clarity, but that's only 1/day. As far as I'm aware the only source of Daze immunity is a single target paladin spell. I suppose you could spend a miracle per party member.

[RandomPeasant]

But what other defences are you thinking of? Daze is not a conditon you can easily become immune to, there's the Third Eye Clarity, but that's only 1/day. As far as I'm aware the only source of Daze immunity is a single target paladin spell. I suppose you could spend a miracle per party member.

blasphemy is a [Sonic] effect and stopped by silence. It is also SR-yes. It's a dangerous spell, and I think it'd be fair to call blasphemy at a CL well above the PC's HD OP even at high levels, but CL 20 blasphemy at 20th level is easy enough for a party to handle.

[Dimers]

Heroes' feast is one I use whenever I reasonably can. One sixth-level slot gives the whole party all-day immunity to two common problems, plus a few minor benefits on the side. Very good bang for the buck. It's partially balanced by the 70-minute activation time, but if you start the day chillin' in the party's rope trick or similar ...

EDIT: Solid fog locks down melees and makes targeting impossible for ranged attackers. Freedom of movement is a crucial buff (or anti-debuff, really).

[ben-zayb]

I'm surprised Friendly Fire isn't talked about more. It protects the caster from multiple combat styles (archery, thrown weapons, spell rays, eldritch blast) and turns the attack against an enemy, not to mention it has an alternate immediate action "no" option. If polymorph is the most op 4th level sorcerer/wizard spell, this has to be the most op 4th level druid spell.

[Venger]

I'd still have to give that to enhance wild shape.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not clustering is possible, though very dependant on where the fight happens.

But what other defences are you thinking of? Daze is not a conditon you can easily become immune to, there's the Third Eye Clarity, but that's only 1/day. As far as I'm aware the only source of Daze immunity is a single target paladin spell. I suppose you could spend a miracle per party member.
Ways to defend against Blasphemy:
- Spell resistance
- Greater Spell Immunity
- immediate action movement (Abrupt Jaunt, Lesser Celerity, Shadow Cloak, etc)
- Ring of Greater Counterspells (for the spell version)
- Ring of Spell Battle (for the spell version)
- ready an action to interrupt (works on SLA's too)
- Cacophonic Shield
- Divine Defiance
- Silence
- Antimagic Ray

There's probably a few more i'm forgetting but you should manage at least one of those by the time you're fighting CR 20 enemies.


I'm surprised Friendly Fire isn't talked about more. It protects the caster from multiple combat styles (archery, thrown weapons, spell rays, eldritch blast) and turns the attack against an enemy, not to mention it has an alternate immediate action "no" option. If polymorph is the most op 4th level sorcerer/wizard spell, this has to be the most op 4th level druid spell.
Putting Friendly Fire on the same level as polymorph is a little ridiculous. It's not even close.
It's also competing with Enhance Wild Shape for most powerful 4th level druid spell, and that one is a lot more useful and powerful imo.
Ranged attacks usually just aren't that threatening without a lot of optimization.

As for why it's not talked about more it's probably a mix of being from a relatively obscure book and having a very straightforward effect.
Not much optimization potential there, it just does what it does.

[RandomPeasant]

You can also defend against blasphemy by just being Evil. So technically the optimal party composition is an equal split of LG, CG, LE, and CE characters, ensuring that at least half the party is unaffected by any blasphemy variant. That much I would consider to be unarguably dumb though.

[Biggus]

various items that block spells

What items are you talking about here?



At least some of those are well within any players ability to get by the time the spell becomes an issue. It's no different from getting Death Ward or Mind Blank in some form as you level.


Personally I consider Death Ward and Mind Blank to be badly designed too. Anything which makes an entire school of magic obsolete for a single spell slot is overpowered, especially Death Ward as a mere 4th-level spell. Mind Blank is at least high level, but if you play to epic levels as I do, it's absolutely-can't-be-overcome-in-any-circumstances language means it's just as problematic.

[Thunder999]

You can also defend against blasphemy by just being Evil. So technically the optimal party composition is an equal split of LG, CG, LE, and CE characters, ensuring that at least half the party is unaffected by any blasphemy variant. That much I would consider to be unarguably dumb though.

I'll remember that next time I need to justify evil characters to a paladin.

Death ward is pretty necessary given how many monsters have obnoxious "fail 1 roll and lose the character" abilities.

[Troacctid]

Frankly I don't think death ward is even good. It's okay. But it's really clunky. You're going to spend an action on a buff spell, and then the enemy might not even use the type of attacks you buffed yourself against. Or they might use them on a teammate instead of on you. Or they might beat your initiative so you never get the chance to cast the spell before they death you.

Mind blank lasts all day. It's always on. It becomes just a thing that you have now. That's really powerful. Ditto for energy immunity, heart of water, primal instinct, heroes' feast. Meanwhile, spells like protection from energy, heroism, and spell turning aren't always on, but the duration is nice and long, so you can reasonably expect to pre-cast them before entering a dungeon and have them last for multiple encounters without costing an action. And then you have spells like skin of the steel dragon and friendly fire that don't last long, but can be used as an immediate action, so you can have them when you need them, at minimal action cost.

But death ward, nope. Too ephemeral to pre-cast, too slow to use reactively, too unreliable to use proactively. If you can't combine it with something like contingency or spell haven, it's...well, I won't say it's just bad, because it still offers useful counterplay against certain enemies in some situations. But, uh, it's not something I'm psyched to be casting.

I like mass death ward though. Fixes the unreliability problem. Now it doesn't matter who they target, because you have all your bases covered.

[Seward]

I'm with Troacctid - Death Ward is one of those spells I never can seem to use effectively.

It is in an impacted spell slot (cleric L4 spells have many, many good options, and if I want a buff everybody spell, free movement wins out due to longer duration and more common effects it applies to).

On a scroll it is really expensive and only lasts a few minutes. It's too high level to quicken until very late in the game unless you are a DMM quicken build and blow your 1-2/day powerful quicken on it, and even then you protect only one person.

The only times I've seen it used in play is if we're about to kick down a door and know we are fighting level draining creatures AND the party had time to reshuffle spells or at least fill a few open high level spell slots - and in that latter case again only one person is likely to be protected - it just never worked well even in that situation, the bad guys always just tried another victim and usually found one with tasty levels to drain.

Only other time I saw it was useful when we had a room full of puzzle traps that cast energy drain if you picked the wrong one, and for a variety of reasons made it hard for anything but a PC to interact with the puzzle trap, nobody had a long string of summons smart enough to drink the fluid and capable of eating/drinking (elementals were left out for that reason). So the cleric spent 15 minutes to fill her open L5 slot with prot energy, cast it on the designated trap-interactor (that would be my sorcereress who had used analyze dweomer to figure out what the traps did and how they worked, the party voted her to try it out since she bragged about how smart she was and was the only character actually confident death ward would make them safe), she drank the liquids until she found the right one and we bypassed the stupid puzzle with no levels lost. This was a level 12-13 party, and one reason my sorcereress was willing to be the taste-tester is Hero's Feast had her both immune to poison...and immune to fear, so she didn't think much about any mechanical or similar mundane backups might have been in play.

By the time you get mass death ward, 15 minutes+, that can last for a whole dungeon if the party just moves fast from encounter to encounter, it covers the whole party and yeah, that's helpful. But the number of level 15+ tables I've played with a cleric present could be counted on one hand (and 17+ tables with a druid is zero), and the cleric always used the L8 slots for something else. (sometimes quickened versions of the many good L4 spells...)

In level 12+ play, the one spell I really miss if the party doesn't have it is Hero's Feast. Immunity to Poison and Fear just makes a bunch of common enemies much less dangerous - Devils for example are packed with fear effects and some Demons have a number of powerful poison effects that can incapacitate or DOT you for no action cost on their part. the Fear Spell itself will automatically put your whole party in shaken mode if you MAKE the save and combine with any other fear effect and you can get into a party-wide fear lock by getting double-shaken if the enemy has an on-demand fear SLA or a sorcerer with fear (some Daemons can put you in that loop). Or you know, you stumble into 25 mummies lead by a lich and a giant-desert-squid-mummy that burrowed through the floor and exposed you to seeing them all at once from surprise (roll 25 fear saves with low dc. Try to avoid a 1. Also roll a fear save with DC 30ish. Plus you know, the lich will probably do something too....yes this was an encounter I fought at level 12.....with an archer who had a very very low will save. Thank you Hero's Feast, even if some stupid human library-god provided it that day...


blasphemy is a [Sonic] effect and stopped by silence. It is also SR-yes. It's a dangerous spell, and I think it'd be fair to call blasphemy at a CL well above the PC's HD OP even at high levels, but CL 20 blasphemy at 20th level is easy enough for a party to handle.

There was a period in Living Grehawk when authors scaled half-fiends into levels that got Blasphemy on 4hd/cr creatures and got you into "this will just kill the party" levels (evil characters were not allowed). In that period people started carrying around oil of silence just so anybody who rolled high initiative could cover us with silence if they saw a half-fiend (which is to say - you see an elder elemental with red eyes and wings. SILENCE. You see a colossal squid with red eyes and wings. SILENCE. You see the barn attack you and it unfolds giant wings.... SILENCE....). The players with higher system mastery would READY their oil/scroll of silence for when they saw the critter concentrate for a SLA within 40' of the party, thus wasting its 1/day ability. If it realizes you've silenced the party and it still has an action, it might hit your whole party with a massive CL20 horrid wilting instead, which can be nearly as bad if the party is more in the L10 range than the L15 range)

Next time the campaign rules were written authors had guidance about that - find a plot reason why they cast it earlier, or were saving it for later, or just don't use that template for monsters that scale that way you dumbasses...more politely of course, or the adventures wouldn't be approved. But the older adventures stick around for a few years when retired, so some of us had twitchy reflexes. Most other monsters you encounter with Blasphemy in level cause it to daze your party for 1 round and do some strength drain to some members. This can be bad if they can cast it 3x/day but again, the remedy is usually to get silence up for whomever is first to act, and some of us have old musty Oil of Silence or Scrolls of Silence in the bottom of our haversacks to educate the newbies. Multiple folks who can cast the spell usually have some of the party simply outlevel them, who then protect the others or simply vaporize the offenders while the weaker party members recover (or lie pinned under their gear as multiple strength damage from multiple blasphemies reduced their strength to zero)


You can also defend against blasphemy by just being Evil. So technically the optimal party composition is an equal split of LG, CG, LE, and CE characters, ensuring that at least half the party is unaffected by any blasphemy variant. That much I would consider to be unarguably dumb though.

That is the CRPG solution. Icewind Dale II was early 3.0 and the theorycraft for people who play the entire series and expansion discuss the merits of having some or all party members being evil, to ignore the blasphemies that come into play at various points, sometimes in what can be dangerous battles. I can't remember if that was a problem in the 2e games (Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale I), I don't remember having trouble with Blasphemy in that edition, maybe it wasn't as common if you weren't an actual cleric in 2e. Or maybe like in Neverwinter Nights, the Protagonist and even followers tend to outlevel nearly all of the opposition by quite a bit, where Icewind Dale was a party game, not a leader+followers model, so it scaled more like a typical D&D pen and paper party. (Did Neverwinter Nights 1/2 even have the "word" spells? They might have nixed it as too big a player advantage. I tended to dislike prep caster protagonists in CRPGs so I don't have any memory of it, and follower offensive spellcasting was um...bad AI, so I tended toward support spells)

Icewind Dale II is the only CRPG I've played that allowed evil characters where it was actually a significant advantage in the endgame to be evil. In most others it's an ok option but there is usually as much downside as upside. It helped that the game was a "form a party and murderhobo" game without a lot of NPC interaction and no need to build a party of followers. Needless to say there were a variety of strategies to survive the Blasphemy fights, and most nonevil parties manage to find one, but there might be some cursing-save-reload when you first encounter some of those fights and get dazed etc.

[Dimers]

Oh, let me add one more. Empyreal ecstasy (bard 6th, Pleasure domain 7th) makes the whole party immune to mind effects and take half damage from all melee and ranged attacks. (It doesn't specify hit point damage, so AFAIK it works against ability damage too.) I mean, yeah, it's got drawbacks and it only lasts a minute per level, but even without the hefty unbypassable damage reduction, that's party-wide mind blank two levels before or one level after wizard gets access to single-target mind blank.

[rel]

some higher level options that haven't been mentioned:
force cage
trap the soul

[AvatarVecna]

Oh, let me add one more. Empyreal ecstasy (bard 6th, Pleasure domain 7th) makes the whole party immune to mind effects and take half damage from all melee and ranged attacks. (It doesn't specify hit point damage, so AFAIK it works against ability damage too.) I mean, yeah, it's got drawbacks and it only lasts a minute per level, but even without the hefty unbypassable damage reduction, that's party-wide mind blank two levels before or one level after wizard gets access to single-target mind blank.

You forgot a couple upsides. First, it makes you immune to pain effects. That's not nothing, but it's not much. More importantly, however, is that any mind-affecting effects that were already on you don't get canceled by the spell.


some higher level options that haven't been mentioned:
force cage
trap the soul

Forcecage can be beaten by Disintegrate (a lower level spell), Antimagic Field (a lower level spell), potentially escape artist/shrinking magic (depending on how big the holes are if they exist), and literally any form of teleportation. I'm not saying it's not useful, but there's lvl 1 wizards who can bypass it pretty trivially.

[Thane of Fife]

I can't remember if that was a problem in the 2e games (Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale I), I don't remember having trouble with Blasphemy in that edition, maybe it wasn't as common if you weren't an actual cleric in 2e. Or maybe like in Neverwinter Nights, the Protagonist and even followers tend to outlevel nearly all of the opposition by quite a bit, where Icewind Dale was a party game, not a leader+followers model, so it scaled more like a typical D&D pen and paper party. (Did Neverwinter Nights 1/2 even have the "word" spells? They might have nixed it as too big a player advantage. I tended to dislike prep caster protagonists in CRPGs so I don't have any memory of it, and follower offensive spellcasting was um...bad AI, so I tended toward support spells)

Neverwinter Nights has "Word of Faith," which basically combines all of those spells, but might be even more powerful, as it applies a fairly lengthy stun (1 round / 2 caster levels) at most HD levels (bearing in mind that pre-3.5, that line of spells was based on absolute rather than relative hit dice). On the other hand, balors don't get it, so it probably doesn't hit you very often.

2e has "Unholy Word" instead of Blasphemy, and it's more similar to 3.5's Holy Word, so it doesn't have that daze effect at the top (though it slows instead of blinding). Also, I don't think it's common on monsters.


As for spells, I'll throw out Rope Trick, which I think is too potent for its level.

[Wonton64]

Daze is not a conditon you can easily become immune to, there's the Third Eye Clarity, but that's only 1/day. As far as I'm aware the only source of Daze immunity is a single target paladin spell. I suppose you could spend a miracle per party member.

Warforged Paladins have an ACF that grants them immunity to daze, too.

On the topic of Blasphemy, isn't there a Prestige Class out there that gives a PC immunity to that spell? I know there is, but I can't remember the name.

[RandomPeasant]

Heroes' feast is one I use whenever I reasonably can. One sixth-level slot gives the whole party all-day immunity to two common problems, plus a few minor benefits on the side. Very good bang for the buck. It's partially balanced by the 70-minute activation time, but if you start the day chillin' in the party's rope trick or similar ...

I cannot possibly see how you would justify heroes' feast as an answer to OP's question, especially at a level that contains planar binding. The question is not "what are some pretty useful spells at their level".


Forcecage can be beaten by Disintegrate (a lower level spell), Antimagic Field (a lower level spell), potentially escape artist/shrinking magic (depending on how big the holes are if they exist), and literally any form of teleportation. I'm not saying it's not useful, but there's lvl 1 wizards who can bypass it pretty trivially.

It can also be defeated by simply being large enough. forcecage gets a lot of attention because it beats up on Fighters really hard, but against monsters (you know, the things you actually fight) it is not really all that broken.

[Dimers]

One I'm surprised people haven't mentioned yet is fabricate. It seems to come up a lot in optimization threads. I don't understand the value myself, but I'm still surprised by its absence in the thread.


You forgot a couple upsides. First, it makes you immune to pain effects. That's not nothing, but it's not much. More importantly, however, is that any mind-affecting effects that were already on you don't get canceled by the spell.

Forcecage can be beaten by Disintegrate (a lower level spell), Antimagic Field (a lower level spell), potentially escape artist/shrinking magic (depending on how big the holes are if they exist), and literally any form of teleportation. I'm not saying it's not useful, but there's lvl 1 wizards who can bypass it pretty trivially.

Empyreal ecstasy: The fact that it doesn't cancel existing mind effects can also be a downside if your party's already faced some charms or dominates. To my mind, it's a wash.

Forcecage: Gasesous form is yet another lower-level bypass.

EDIT:


I cannot possibly see how you would justify heroes' feast as an answer to OP's question, especially at a level that contains planar binding. The question is not "what are some pretty useful spells at their level".

I see more potential downsides to planar binding than most forumgoers acknowledge. If it works perfectly, great -- it's a very versatile effect. But it's got so many potential points of failure and drawbacks. The relative value also drops off as you level up and become able to do for yourself what you'd be leveraging the bound creature to do. Heroes' feast always works (again, with the caveat of the 70-minute setup, or 60 minutes with the MIC horn), it benefits multiple people, it benefits them directly, and it fully eliminates two categories of SoS/SoL for an entire adventuring day. I'd use it as a 9th-level spell; level 17 parties face poison and fear all the time. I opine that "I would use this constantly as soon as it becomes available" qualifies something as overpowered for its level.

[flappeercraft]

Despite both being quite high level, some I consider to be rather powerful and have not seen mentioned are Mystic Shield and Effulgent Epuration.

[liquidformat]

How has no one mentioned the best spell in the game Prestidigitation! I mean what can't you do with that spell it is godly!

[Troacctid]

How has no one mentioned the best spell in the game Prestidigitation! I mean what can't you do with that spell it is godly!
What can't you do? Uh, most things. The spell is useless in combat and has virtually no practical applications for adventuring.

[loky1109]

I remembered most OP spell. Prestidigitation. If you use options from T&B.

[vasilidor]

Has no one here used Prestidigitation to trick someone into thinking that the food was poisoned?
Or that someone was sick with a plague?
or just to distract someone?

[Troacctid]

Has no one here used Prestidigitation to trick someone into thinking that the food was poisoned?
Or that someone was sick with a plague?
or just to distract someone?
I think you just described the Bluff skill.

[AvatarVecna]

I remembered most OP spell. Prestidigitation. If you use options from T&B.

Prestidigitation? You mean "Least Wish"?

[InvisibleBison]

One I'm surprised people haven't mentioned yet is fabricate. It seems to come up a lot in optimization threads. I don't understand the value myself, but I'm still surprised by its absence in the thread.

One disadvantage to fabricate that a lot of people seem to ignore is that it can only make things that are comprised of a single material. While there are plenty of situations where that drawback isn't relevant, there are quite a few where it is.


How has no one mentioned the best spell in the game Prestidigitation! I mean what can't you do with that spell it is godly!

Prestidigitation can't actually do anything. The spell says "a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects". Limited wish is capable of producing "any other effect whose power level is in line with" a spell of up to 4th level. Thus, anything prestidigitation could in theory do is duplicating the effect of limited wish and can't actually be done.
Color the above blue to taste.

[Soranar]

I think you just described the Bluff skill.

how did I forget the best bard spell: glibness

and animate dead also has entire builds built around it for a reason

[AnonymousPepper]

I know it's not abuse-able in the same way that, say, Lesser Wish or summoning or other some such are, but I'd like to give a shoutout to Avasculate. Sor/Wiz 7, necromancy, ranged touch, no save (on the part that matters), SR:Yes, [death], [evil]. Chunk your target's current HP in half, uncapped. That there's a fort save or stun on top is just gravy.

In common play, this one spell completely invalidates the whole "huge sack of HP" problem that a lot of big monsters present. Doesn't work on undead, sure, and you do have to be willing to cast an [evil] spell, but like. Literally infinite damage, a giant screw you to chunky boys, and continues being hyper effective at any level because of how it scales. It's the bread and butter of damage builds like the Mailman, making direct damage viable against anything that isn't immune, and also makes the mundanes in your party twice as effective per cast.

The thing that's busted is the no save part. Why there was no save attached to doing 50% current HP damage is beyond me.

[Thunder999]

Force cage is pretty great, it's target dependant of course, but it's a no save, no SR, offensive spell that lasts 2 hours/level, so when it does work you just win.
The barred cage version is 20x20x20, that's enough for gargantuan creatures, so not that limiting. The widnowless cell is smaller, but also doesn't let you just drop any ongoing damage effect on the area and wait for trapped enemy to die.

There's plenty of high CR creatures that can neither teleport nor disintegrate.

[Seward]

Honestly I found the hefty material component cost the main barrier to using Forcecage. But all the arcanists I've seen played in that level range were in Living Greyhawk where WBL did not adjust for using consumables, so that 1.5k per casting is 1.5k you never see again. My sorceress found Grasping Hand sufficient for most of the usual uses of Forcecage, plus being a spont caster, found the spell's more versatile uses more helpful for her other L7 spell known after Limited Wish. (and if that didn't work she also packed solid fog and wall of force. Something "free" would work well enough).

I played with a lot of high level arcanists, including a couple tier 16 all-arcane runs, and never saw anybody actually use forcecage except maybe a NPC opponent once or twice. I guess we preferred more economical spells.

My own shortlist for spells that punch above their weight in 3.5, one for each level I. There are more but these stand out to me. Used properly these spells can change an encounter from "oh ****" to "we got this". Not always but so often that they are even more important to me than such staple spells as dim door or

Level 1 Obscuring Mist
Stops: Sneak attack or other precision damage, and 10' into the fog any kind of charge including lance charge, targeted spells. 50% miss chance vs all targeted ranged attacks, and provides both a blur effect and immunity to reach AOOs throughout the combat when your party is ready to hit back. Voted "most likely to save the ass of your party if cast in the surprise round from level 1-20")

Level 2 Silence
The perfect counterspell against most spellcasters. Cast on your martial and his grapple or trip screws most spell-based or magic item escape paths, and he can follow the caster around. Lets your whole party sneak up with perfect stealth until you enter line of sight (again best cast on the martial that will charge, or maybe throw a silenced-javelin or something). Also a defense against the Holy Word line of spells, all spells with a language component (again usually on your martial - no "Suggestion" or "Tasha's Laughter" for you on that guy) and a few random but dangerous sonic effects (like the Vrock area stun croak). Often lets you set up a series of encounters that take out guards and even barracks-type encounters before the stronghold notices you are there. Accept no substitutes (in Pathfinder the short duration and full round casting nerf it some but it can still do most of these things at some level).

Level 3 Phantom Steed
It's the overland fast movement method least likely to piss the GM off, while having steeds that are constructs immune to a bunch of effects that might panic or otherwise disable your mount. It is also the only movement this fast that doesn't require stopping and regrouping before engaging in tactical combat (wind walk is really slow to shift, and bottle of smoke uses a hand, ride checks and is otherwise awkward). It is astonishingly good in tactical combat especially for archers and metamagic-using spont casters, letting you do shot-on-the-run with your full attack while moving in and out of cover (and with the speed of the steed, the cover can be a hill 120 feet away). Obviously it's just silly good for anybody with rideby attack too, and it'll get your tank to the center of the enemy in a single action. At higher levels it is also Mass Overland Fly for the whole party, except a lot faster. Casting it often enough for the whole party is actually worth the spell slots on a travel day where you probably can afford 4-6 mid-level slots but if that bugs you, do it before you go to sleep and get a few hours of Super-Steeds in the morning to start your assault on the bad guys. At lower levels just cast one for your archer and/or your arcanist and scale up as slots become less scarce.

Level 4 Solid Fog
It just works, even on flying enemies. No matter how many hit dice, how silly their BAB+strength+grapple check go or how stupid their saving throws scale with advancement, you will lock down that gargantuan whatever unless it has freedom of movement. It's forcecage that works on almost anything 2 levels lower and 1500gp cheaper, works on multiple opponents, doesn't need to be targeted, is cast at medium range and has all the defensive benefits of obscuring mist while actually stopping physical ranged attacks, not just giving a miss chance. It is especially hilarious on Dragons, the bigger the funnier, shutting down their zillion meters of movement while for larger ones, leaving bits exposed for your party members to beat up, dim door+air walk+full attack or whatever. It's also a giant pillow for falling comrades, a kind of area, long range feather fall if no better option is available. Bonus points if you have gust of wind to cut out channels that allow your archers or melees to go in and butcher whatever is inside it.

Level 5 Teleport It can serve as Dim Door for tactical use, with slightly different risks, but which doesn't disable the caster, allowing a swift and move action afterwards (as in teleport 1000 feet up, swift action feather fall, fight the battle at long range out of danger, possibly joined by the party archer as you two drift peacefully down....). It lets you pop back to town to pick up something you need in the field, or to drop your buddy at temple to pick up a restoration spell and recover that 18 points of strength he was drained. It removes GM excuses that you can't find a market to sell your goods, or find the thing you want to buy or commission to be made. Eventually (or immediately with smaller parties) it is your party escape spell when you bite off more than you can chew. It is the more important half of scry and die. It complements phantom steeds, which can get you where you are going quickly, but when you finish the mission you can return even faster.

Level 6 Hero's Feast As noted above, this is the most consequential L6 spell, including Heal, I've seen in actual play. It trivializes encounters, prevents a whole series of disasters that can be caused by secondary zero-action effects of demons and devils, and tosses a bit of temp hitpoints and "bless" on you for 12 hours. If my party lacks anybody who can cast it after L12, we have to actually adjust tactics and treat a number of encounters totally differently.

Level 7 Limited Wish A moderate XP cost "oh ****" spell that lets you do whatever you need in the moment that you forgot to prepare or couldn't prepare/take as a spell known. Which by definition is the best use of a spell slot. Plus can do a handful of effects you can't do any other way (like just flat lower next save by -7 or ensure your teammate can hit with a power attack-full with his weapon-of-BBEG-slaying against any AC target). Also lets you cast spells with long casting times in a standard action, and not pay material component costs up to 1000gp. 1001 uses, recommended for any sorcerer regardless of theme as first L7 pick, and for any wizard as a permanent "prep this once today every day from L13 onward".

Level 8 Mind Blank At this level the scrying protection and immunity to detection spells is almost as important as the mental defense. Cast on your scout first, then whomever can remove effects, keep casting till you run out of L8 slots, nothing else you have at L8 as an arcane is as important as protecting as many party members as you can with this spell.

Level 9 Shapechange Two tier 1 classes (and animal domain clerics) have access to it. It gives access to every EX or SU ability in any book ever published, you can swap to a new form every round as a free action and it still allows spellcasting assuming you can manage the component restrictions. Plus it lasts about 3 hours, even at minimum caster levels. This spell alone would be enough to explain why L9 slots are so deeply valued.

Note that I've never actually played a caster who could cast Shapechange, or any other 9th level spell, except in CRPGs where the spell isn't nearly as good, and I usually go with other options. But in P&P play, this is the definition of cheese with none of the downsides of trying to gate in powerful creatures and convince them to do what you want.

[RandomPeasant]

One I'm surprised people haven't mentioned yet is fabricate. It seems to come up a lot in optimization threads. I don't understand the value myself, but I'm still surprised by its absence in the thread.

That's because, like heroes' feast, it's not broken. fabricate does a very useful thing. But there are better downtime spells at its level (lesser planar binding), better plot spells at its level (teleport), and better combat spells at its level (any combat spell).


I see more potential downsides to planar binding than most forumgoers acknowledge. If it works perfectly, great -- it's a very versatile effect. But it's got so many potential points of failure and drawbacks.

I don't see how I can possibly engage with this argument, as you have not specified what drawbacks you see that others do not.


I opine that "I would use this constantly as soon as it becomes available" qualifies something as overpowered for its level.

It's a downtime spell that has a long enough duration that you can prepare spells again before it wears off. It is certainly something you should have up all the time once you can, but that is because it has very low costs, not because it is particularly broken.


I know it's not abuse-able in the same way that, say, Lesser Wish or summoning or other some such are, but I'd like to give a shoutout to Avasculate. Sor/Wiz 7, necromancy, ranged touch, no save (on the part that matters), SR:Yes, [death], [evil]. Chunk your target's current HP in half, uncapped. That there's a fort save or stun on top is just gravy.

That's just a lower variance finger of death. Powerful, certainly, but I don't know that it deserves to be called out as the best spell at its level. Dealing a flat half HP is powerful, but there's lots of monsters where that's not clearly better than dealing a pile of fixed damage. Against, for instance, a Ghaele, a spell that just did 1d6 damage/CL would deal higher average damage avasculate (45.5 v 32.5). And a spell that deals merely 1d6 damage/CL would be absolute trash at 7th level. Much like the orbs, the fact that this spell is good against some things is not inherently game breaking. All spells are good against some things. If there are enemies you want to tag with avasculate and enemies you want to tag with a Maximized orb of acid, the game is working as intended.


The barred cage version is 20x20x20, that's enough for gargantuan creatures, so not that limiting. The widnowless cell is smaller, but also doesn't let you just drop any ongoing damage effect on the area and wait for trapped enemy to die.

The barred cage allows the creature inside to shoot out at you as much as it allows you to shoot in at it. It's true that if you voltron together a couple of spells you can build a death combo around forcecage, but spending multiple spells (at least one of which is 7th level) and multiple actions to kill something is probably okay.


As noted above, this is the most consequential L6 spell, including Heal, I've seen in actual play.

Well, yes, but only because the game blows up if you don't nuke planar binding. The argument that "very good buff" is better than "spell that gives you an infinite army" is just bizarre.

[Seward]

"Very good buff" is allowed in every game and is deeply missed when not present the second half of the level range, whether nobody can cast, it was cast but dispelled or its duration ran out/took too long to cast before a tough encounter happened. I stand by that choice, although I understand why somebody who isn't me might pick Planar binding and not contest it. When you don't have it a routine encounter can turn into a rescue loop death spiral or even a TPK with remarkable speed. Possibly my playtest experience really showed the gap between parties with it and without it, I don't think I ever had a playtest party crap out that had Hero's Feast running unless they lost the initiative rocket tag by a huge amount and ran into an overleveled Blasphemy type effect or just massed, powerful AOEs before anybody could act that managed to drop some party members, especially those that could help them escape or heal through it.

I had quite a few turn into debacles because they weren't absolutely immune to fear or poison and just rolled crap on saves vs various devil fear effects or something like the nausea aura of Hezrou. Usually it was just a "1" on the wrong person after having to roll many times. The poison's easier to deal with, you can cast slow poison on the party as a compensation with nearly any mix at level 12+, but the fear can hose you if any enemy casts the actual fear spell and if they have any other way of adding shaken. They can fearlock anybody they really dislike with at-will or many-slots-available fear spell+intimidate skill in most cases, if nothing else serves, switching to a new person once the victim rolls a 1 or otherwise fails the save and isn't just in "fear" state for 1 round.

It is important enough I'd seriously consider casting Limited Wish->Greater Heroism on a caster with reliable and multiple remove fear effects if I had any idea I might be fighting a lot of devils or other critters with fear as a major tactic soon in a party that lacked that immunity. If the party had a paladin, and he was a badass, maybe I'd stop fretting, and just make sure he had a phantom steed to ride in case his mount was afflicted with fear. If you know the threat (like, you failed an encounter due to all that fear but managed to disengage, and are trying to figure out how to manage it) spell immunity-fear spell might get it done if that's the root of the difficulty. Although you're probably trying to convince a NPC priest to cast it or using a scroll, since if you had a cleric who could cast that spell, you'd probably have hero feast in the party (barring a cohort or underleveled cleric playing up being the reason you lack it)

For me...I just can't choose a spell I haven't used and loved, or alternately thought it was really important to have in the party if I wasn't the party caster. While I think it is insane to have obscuring mist on your scroll list and not invest in a 2gp scrollcase and a 25gp scroll, plenty of people don't do that. So it usually is me who saves the day with that spell, I've got probably a dozen stories in level ranges from 2-14 where that stupid scroll was a lifesaver (and a few more where taking it as a spell known or prepping it also saved the day. My spont casters even quicken the damn thing sometimes).

"Planar Binding" - I've never seen used in actual play even though it was legal in most games I've played that weren't Living Greyhawk (which granted is a fairly small number of adventures in that level range). What I have seen is the Planar Ally chain, because those dudes actually work willingly for you if you pay the price and don't ask them to do anything that violates their ethos. I've even chipped in permanent WBL to get it cast in one particularly dire upcoming encounter.

Basically the GM negotiation with Planar Binding isn't considered to be worth it for anybody I've every played with.

That's also why I rated Shapeshift higher than Wish or Miracle. It'll be allowed in some fashion if the polymorph chain is allowed (which granted, it isn't always), although GM may limit the forms somehow, but it'll still be an amazing buff.

Now I don't always apply that logic to my spell choices. I'm a bigger fan of phantom steed than many I've played with although once people get a taste of what it is like to have a whole party mounted on the things, the enthusiasm goes up markedly. Likewise the Solid Fog line of spells is fairly popular but I find the L4 version of the spell is useful precisely because it is so low level while having the most important effects. Freezing Fog is an objectively better spell on every level in terms of action economy but being 2 levels higher has a higher opportunity cost. On a wizard I trade up to freezing fog at some point, on a sorcerer I take solid fog, and maybe a scroll of sleet storm if I want to make whomever is inside more miserable and don't intend to attack it any time soon.

[AvatarVecna]

Claiming Heroes' Feast is the most overpowered for its level, when it's at the same level as Planar Binding, is inching awfully close to Oberoni Fallacy.

[Seward]

Claiming Heroes' Feast is the most overpowered for its level, when it's at the same level as Planar Binding, is inching awfully close to Oberoni Fallacy.

Maybe. For me it is the one that has had the single largest impact in succeeding or failing at encounters at that level, across all class types. Most spells never rise to that level. Which is why Obscuring Mist is more "overpowered" than any level 1 offensive, defensive or utility spell in my opinion, because it does transform encounters with one std action, and the things it works against still work regardless of SR, true seeing or anything else except fighting in a high wind area, an antimagic zone, outer space or underwater, which is all fairly rare as such things go, even at level 20.

I get that the planar binding argument is that you don't even have the party do the encounter, you have your minion do it, or that you use it as a way to bypass WBL on getting arbitrary large numbers of wishes etc. I don't disagree that it is potentially incredibly powerful minionomancy especially combined with choosing bindings of creatures with SLAs that bypass xp or material cost limits on certain spells. I don't agree though that it's an I win button, because it is written in such a way that the GM is either encouraged to screw with any player that tries to abuse it, or if the GM doesn't feel that limit is strong enough for what it gives, it simply gets banned.

Ok lets break it down.

1. Critter gets a save. It can always roll a 20, and you have to cast the damn thing again
2. It isn't one spell it is 3 spells (Planar Biding, Dim Anchor, Circle of Prot <alignment>.
3. The hitdie limit is supposed to matter, but WOTC published low HD critters with really powerful SLAs, which is where the cheese comes in. GM says those guys don't exist in his universe, the rest of the critters aren't more powerful than what you can bring in with Summon Monster XXX, just lasts longer.
4. Opposed charisma checks to persuade them. If you roll a 1 it escapes. Also there isn't any mechanism to know if you succeeded, and a lot of these guys are good at lying. "Sure I agree". You release them. They laugh at you and leave or attack depending on how they figure the odds.
5. Even if all goes to plan and they do the service without perverting it somehow... The creature may later seek revenge

I find #5 the most problematic. If it is as OP as the advocates say, those same OP creatures will come after you. Lets pick a humble Efreet. You bullied it into granting you a wish. Now it is mad. It goes to every single other enemy you have ever made and gives them a wish (including perhaps other critters you bound earlier and certainly whomever your current BBEG is and every one of their minions, 1/day, down to the last kobold). Is this REALLY overpowered? Or is it just a complicated way to play Russian Roulette, getting great results till you piss off the wrong outsider, who makes it his business to help all of your enemies succeed against you. And you make potentially additional enemies every time you use the spell.

So going back to the Oberani Fallacy - I'm not saying the GM has to fix or ban the spell. I'm saying that if the GM runs it the way it is written, every single time you use this spell you risk adding an outsider with some overpowered SLA for his CR to your enemy lists, and such an outsider would never ever need to confront you directly. All it would have to do is grant its same abilities you bound it to provide to your current enemies until they're able to kill you for him.

Having that NOT happen is closer to the fallacy. Your GM is ignoring the revenge text and letting you take a pass on it, which is basically the same category of thing as not having Born of 3 Thunders daze you after you use it, or letting sorcerers all cast quicken spell at full speed. What's problematic about planar binding is actually they used the GM disrupting his campaign to punish the player for using it as a balancing mechanic. But it is the absence of consequences that makes the spell attractive to its proponents and that shouldn't work long term if you use the spell constantly.

[AvatarVecna]

There's a lot of little potential issues with Planar Binding, but mind control, social skills, and murder can solve all of them. Don't wanna cooperate, wanna twist tye wish? DIPLOMACY. Oh of course I'll let you out after you grant my wishes properly. I'll even wish for two things you want after I get my Wish. BLUFF. And then you murder the trapped helpless genie after he made you a ring of infinite super-powerful wishes. MURDER.

And now you've got a ring that can do basically anything you want. You got a single untwisted no XP wish and you're now living life on permanent easy mode. It wasn't even a wish that falls outside the normal things wish can do, so the universe itself won't go twisting your wish on top of genie twisting. Among the many things the ring can do is "Planar bind another genie for an infinitely strong wish", in case your arbitrarily strong wishes aren't enough on their own.

Edit: Not that you have to murder the genie after you get the ring. There's any number of things you could do with that ring to prevent the revenge. Like memory wipes, or soul trapping. Murder is just a really straightforward option.

But yeah. Basically infinite power off a single wish. It's not quite as strong as the Planar Binding--> Wish loop, but that takes negotiating every single new genie, and the item is plenty strong.

[AvatarVecna]

And that's just if we're cheesing it out. But part of the beauty of spells like Shapechange or Polymorph or Planar Binding that give you access to huge swathes of the monster manual is, you don't need to cheese them for them to be overpowered. Their barebones intended usage is problematic on its own - not gamebreaking, or plot-ending, but definitely easy mode.

Wizard 12 casts Planar Binding on an Astral Deva. This isn't cherry-picking, it's just literally the first 12 HD Outsider in the core monster manual. No magic circle, no dimensional anchor, just a forced conversation. It's not gonna immediately kill me just for summoning it, which gives me a chance to plead my case for its assistance. It gets a fair wage for its services - no trickery, no mind-whammies, no "eternal reward" payment. Just a straightforward exchange of service for money, with the goal of making the world a better place. Helping heroes defeat villains, that's an easy deal to take. Even if I fail the Cha check, that just means they're free of the binding that was never binding them in the first place. An honest negotiation between the forces of good - I'm only casting Planar Binding because I can't cast Planar Ally. Now we have another body in our party. One with a good DPR, 102 HP, and a pile of at-Will SLAs (including Remove Fear). Nothing broken, just useful stuff.

Compare this with a spell that has a 70 minute casting time (well, 10 minutes to cast and 60 minutes of effort by other people for it to actually take effect, which is even worse), gives 108 temp HP to the typical four-man band (which means once they're gone, healing can't bring them back), poison immunity (admittedly useful, but also plenty of other ways to get good resistance/immunity to poison), and fear immunity (one of the most toothless conditions in the game, one which casters tend to be more resistant to anyway, and one which our Planar Binding ally can deal with trivially).

Heroes' Feast at its best can barely complete with Planar Binding at its worst.

[Dimers]

Let me start by saying that I'm responding as if the question means "what are the FEW most overpowered spells of each level", not "what is the SINGLE most overpowered spell of each level". The question can be interpreted either way. That may be the source of some of our disagreement.


I don't see how I can possibly engage with this argument, as you have not specified what drawbacks you see that others do not.

The most crucial argument against planar binding is beyond the RAW. It's simply that a typical DM is going to ask you not to abuse the spell or not to use it at all, because getting "an infinite army" (as you say) ruins the game. Negating two types of debuffs and granting some THP doesn't ruin the game -- in fact, it lets players enjoy more of the game because they're less likely to lose their opportunity to act. (Don't bother saying "but I love to RP fleeing in terror and/or sitting helplessly because my Str/Dex got reduced to zero and/or waiting for a rez because my Con went to zero!")

While both the spells in question may provoke a DM to simply place harder challenges, heroes' feast enables the whole party to participate in meeting those challenges, while extensively-used planar binding either gives one player disproportionate spotlight time or forces the DM to spend game time rolling against herself.

Also outside the rules, but within the gameworld, is the fact that there may be social consequences for the dangerous and heartless act of trying to force service from something that doesn't belong in this world in the first place. That is to say, there are multiple ways it may not fit the setting. That's less likely to be true for heroes' feast, a benign effect to help the hometown heroes save the day.

Yet another non-rule consideration is that effective use of the spell requires a lot of player knowledge, it requires the DM to have access to the published stats the player wants to apply, and it requires the desired creature to exist in the gameworld. Heroes' feast empowers the player without any of those requirements.

As for the rules ...

The spell itself takes 10 minutes to cast. The proper diagram takes another 10, assuming a level-appropriate Spellcraft. Interruptions are bad. This usually isn't a problem but could easily become one if your DM doesn't want you to have massive free armies. That's one drawback heroes' feast shares, a point I've repeatedly acknowledged.

If you want the binding trap to be as secure as possible, you spend two additional spells (magic circle and dimensional anchor), which also means you need to know/prepare two additional spells, increasing the cost. That's not a dealbreaker deal for a wizard or a cleric of the appropriate domain, but it's a significant investment in spells-known for a sorcerer, the class more likely to succeed in the opposed Charisma check. The expenditure also makes you less prepared for an adventuring day, so it's harder to accomplish when there's a timer running.

The trap and diagram are highly vulnerable to deliberate sabotage or even incidental damage. A stiff breeze or wandering mouse could ruin the diagram (to say nothing of an enemy agent), immediately releasing the victim. As with the setup time, this is an easy area for a DM to act in to prevent you from getting massive free armies. And as with spells expended, it interferes with adventuring, because trying to ensure the trap and diagram remain undisturbed is much harder "in the field" than it is in your carefully arranged and defended home base.

If you forego the magic circle and dimensional anchor to eliminate those problems, you introduce two new points of failure instead -- SR and planar escape.

The spell allows a saving throw. Outsiders have good base Will saves and frequently good Wisdom as well. Elementals don't, but elementals are less potent and less varied in their abilities. And of course even an elemental can roll well, still wasting your use of three spells. By contrast, heroes' feast just plain works.

Technically there's another possible point of failure in the non-opposed Charisma check the victim can make daily to break out. That's not a viable option for almost any standard victim, but one of the select few could get lucky. Or the DM may choose to give that particular succubus a marshal level for Motivate Charisma :smalltongue:

If you offer a reward, you increase your odds of success on the opposed Charisma check, but then you're reducing your assets in some way (time/money/spells/consumables/social capital/etc. spent on the rewarding task). Even with the bonus, you can still fail, and you can't try again for 24 hours -- that's another 24 hours in which the diagram can be violated and probably another 24 hours that you're not spending adventuring if you want to protect the binding. If you roll a 1 on the opposed check, the victim gets free despite all your efforts.

If you make your instructions too broad or vague, the victim gets yet another chance to break free. (The spell doesn't describe the mechanics for that attempt.)

The victim is sent home only if it succeeds in the assigned task and tells you so. That means if it wants to stick around, if you roll that nat-1, or if the diagram is broken, the victim is free to roam around. That might be very bad for your plans, for your loved ones, or for the state of your world. Furthermore, there's nothing stopping the victim from acting against your interests as a side hustle while nominally pursuing your task.

And there's nothing stopping it from acting against you even if it does return to its home plane. Being dragged away from its home, trapped until its will is broken, and forced to perform some task (typically a dangerous one if the summoner is an adventurer) is, in my estimation, pretty likely to anger the victim, and its emotional state or core nature may compel it to try to get revenge. That result is explicit in the spell. While you may think "oh, what can one elemental do against an 11th-level wizard", it's not one pissed-off creature you need to worry about, it's that pissed-off creature and its family, friends, mutual-aid organizations, frustrated superiors, and any mercenaries they may hire.

"A clever recipient can subvert some instructions." So even when it's actively performing your task, things might not go the way you intended.

Removing the benefit of planar binding can be easier than removing the benefit of heroes' feast. Dismissal allows a save but is unlikely to be resisted by a creature bound against its will if that creature recognizes the effect. As the caster level of the dismisser and the binder increase, dismissal becomes more likely to work, regardless of the bound creature's willingness. Dispel magic might or might not succeed in removing heroes' feast from one beneficiary, never mind all of them. As caster level increases for dispeller and feaster, greater dispel becomes necessary to have much chance of removing the buff effect (again, from one beneficiary).

So within the rules planar binding is a failure-prone process that interferes with adventuring and has meaningful potential to end up with one or more creatures acting against your interests. Beyond the rules, it may be inappropriate for the setting, the bounds of the game may reduce its potential value, any substantial power increase is likely to leave other players bored waiting for their turns, and it has extra metagame requirements to use at all. People often speak of planar binding as if it costs nothing but a single spell slot, always succeeds, commands the creature perfectly, is unremovable, has no repercussions, and is always appropriate for a given game. I see downsides, points of failure and drawbacks.

[Gnaeus]

And that's just if we're cheesing it out. But part of the beauty of spells like Shapechange or Polymorph or Planar Binding that give you access to huge swathes of the monster manual is, you don't need to cheese them for them to be overpowered. Their barebones intended usage is problematic on its own - not gamebreaking, or plot-ending, but definitely easy mode.

Wizard 12 casts Planar Binding on an Astral Deva. This isn't cherry-picking, it's just literally the first 12 HD Outsider in the core monster manual. No magic circle, no dimensional anchor, just a forced conversation. It's not gonna immediately kill me just for summoning it, which gives me a chance to plead my case for its assistance. It gets a fair wage for its services - no trickery, no mind-whammies, no "eternal reward" payment. Just a straightforward exchange of service for money, with the goal of making the world a better place. Helping heroes defeat villains, that's an easy deal to take. Even if I fail the Cha check, that just means they're free of the binding that was never binding them in the first place. An honest negotiation between the forces of good - I'm only casting Planar Binding because I can't cast Planar Ally. Now we have another body in our party. One with a good DPR, 102 HP, and a pile of at-Will SLAs (including Remove Fear). Nothing broken, just useful stuff.

Compare this with a spell that has a 70 minute casting time (well, 10 minutes to cast and 60 minutes of effort by other people for it to actually take effect, which is even worse), gives 108 temp HP to the typical four-man band (which means once they're gone, healing can't bring them back), poison immunity (admittedly useful, but also plenty of other ways to get good resistance/immunity to poison), and fear immunity (one of the most toothless conditions in the game, one which casters tend to be more resistant to anyway, and one which our Planar Binding ally can deal with trivially).

Heroes' Feast at its best can barely complete with Planar Binding at its worst.

Or even with lesser... Got a few days of time? Call a dozen yeth hounds. Or 30. Trivially easy to innoculate your party at beginning of adventuring day (night). They have no defenses against the spell. What if they hate you? Who cares? They are weak, stupid, and lack independent planar travel. Although their text says they are fundamentally obedient and seek out masters to serve so they're probably happy if you let them chase and kill things. Start every fight by making everything but your party make 30 dc12 fear saves or panic.

[Seward]

Obviously I'm with Dimers on this one, but the use Gnaeus put it to is one that I could see being used in an actual game where the restrictions are taken into account and is why I said it is a strong minionomancy spell.

You can do the same thing by spamming charm person or charm monster on appropriate targets if you can locate them, if you follow up the charm with diplomacy to make them helpful.

HOWEVER, the same encounters that would TPK a party without hero's feast would also make hash of those minions. And you can't feed the Hero Feast to all those minions (or their 12hd equivalents). Where it is hard to imagine what encounters a level 11-12 party can't take without a yeth hound pack that it needed a yeth hound pack to defeat. (or charmed whatevers...). Undead minionomancy would be a better substitute for Hero's feast because those minions are immune to poison and fear naturally, and you could shove them into harms way.

The cost for an Astral Deva to willingly help you via planar binding would be identical to the cost it would charge a cleric in planar ally. Maybe more, as planar ally presumes you pick an outsider favorably disposed to the deity you serve, and the Deva might charge a "planar binding" tax. So that use of Planar binding does show the flexibility of the spell, puts it on par with Planar Ally. I don't disagree really. But I don't think it provides any discount vs using planar ally.

This is a thread about our assessment of the most powerful spells per spell level. All of us will have our experiences coloring our choices. One of my personal constraints was "in a PC party, what spells are most likely to turn a hard encounter into an easy one, or prevent a rescue-loop disaster that could spiral into a TPK." That's reflected in every single one of my choices except perhaps Shapechange, possibly because I have no play experience at that level.

In my personal experience as a GM, playtester, author and player....

While I recognize the power of minionomancy I don't find it all that (more) effective (compared to other approaches) either in the PC side of things in overcoming PC-type challenges or in the opposition side of things (primarily because your charmed/bound army gets added to the CR, so such effects mostly require defeating PC magical defenses which is considerably harder). The way I see minionomancy used is generally the party enchanter/necromancer finds an appropriate target in an early encounter and uses it in later encounters. This can be pretty damn cool when you get the right encounter mix. I've seen it backfire when a later enemy broke the control, but that's rare. But it isn't more incredibly good in terms of defeating encounters than what other spells can do, mostly it helps with spell burn in caster-heavy parties, by providing either a physical martial to hit and be hit, or a source of at-will spellcasting that saves on buffs. The Astral Deva example is similar to this kind of minionomancy using charm or control-undead chain. You get somebody roughly on par with a typical party member (at level 12) for the cost of using the spell, and it'll be good for one "service" or until it is killed. Unlike the charm/control undead, it doesn't stay relevant as you level (the Astral Deva is no stronger at L16 than it was at L12, costs the same etc where immunity is immunity at any level, it saves you from increasingly powerful fear/poison effects)

Minionomancy also has a social cost, at the game table, which restricts its use. Used well, it is similar to a summoner druid with a large cat animal companion and who is wildshaped into a cat. You can fill the battlefield with obstacles that can rip giant chunks out of enemies - at the cost of requiring about 100 die rolls to finish your turn (that's the d20s, not the damage dice). A few players can be organized enough (and fast enough at adding up dice) to manage that without slowing the game to a crawl each combat. Most can't, and simplify down to maybe the wildshape spell or attack, the animal companion attack and the best-summon-for-the-fight cast early, with any others being strictly battlefield control single attack meat shields (such as dire bats or giant crocodiles).

Planar binding et-all is kind of like the explosive runes abuse - it requires prep ahead of time and sidelines your party if it works, or just wastes game time if it doesn't. It's still worth doing sometimes, which is why I've seen Planar Ally used, because flat resource cost is better than "it might come after you someday" and the tedious setup and negotiation steps are streamlined.

However - while personally I think Hero's Feast has more impact, with Heal probably being the runner up at level 6 I would never dispute that Planar Binding might make somebody else's list (or maybe antimagic shell, or a few others that do some pretty radical game changing effects). It is a powerful spell and has that open-ended quality that can invite pregame stacking or "search through books to find a perfect summon" kinds of optimization.



fear immunity (one of the most toothless conditions in the game, one which casters tend to be more resistant to anyway, and one which our Planar Binding ally can deal with trivially).


This quote is why it's on my list and you think it's barely worth mentioning.

Fear stacks, and saves don't protect you from it under many conditions (fear spell is save PARTIAL, and intimidate uses a mechanic a PC won't win), or they are spammed so often in an encounter (for no action cost by enemies) that you WILL roll a natural 1 before it is over. It only seems minor because you have not had the encounters I've playtested or endured as a player where they get to the level where the primary danger of a dispel is that it dispels your fear immunity. You need immunity, not mere high will saves. Planar binding might get you a minion that is immune (although most example minions I've seen for planar binding are not in fact immune), it doesn't automatically protect your party. Level 16 parties were no more resistant than level 12 parties to fear-locking, and it didn't matter what the party mix was or how good their will saves were. Only being a paladin or (sometimes, but not always) sufficiently high spell resistance gave you protection, short of spells that actually make you immune. Parties without it either had to win the fight with 1-2 members soloing it, or had to retreat, or sometimes even in 6 person parties lost all their actions and TPKd. It isn't hard to design a fearlock encounter and you can do it by accident using Nyacodaemons or Devils or Mummies as core elements of the encounter. (at this level you don't even get XP for the mummies, so GM can put in an arbitrary number and if you can see enough of them, the natural 1 will come up)

In my single published Living Greyhawk module I had a random group of street thugs shaking down a local business, in an adventure that scaled from 2-12. One was a barbarian with intimidating rage, the exotic weapon master flourish ability and stuff that extended the shaken condition. Another was a sorcerer with a draconic fear aura with dc based on whatever spell he cast, and the Fear spell being his primary offensive option in tier 8+ (color spray dominated at lower levels, but cause fear also has a partial save and combined with barbarian to remove opponents for a round in baby levels who had strong will saves). As the goal of that encounter for the bad guys was to clear a path for their leader to escape any authorities (or PCs) the fear proved much harder to cope with than I initially expected, because of those partial save+secondary effects. This encounter wasn't a problem in terms of TPKing parties, but it did embarrass a lot of PCs in front of a lot of witnesses (including sometimes unamused law enforcement officers thinking PCs are reckless vigilantes if they behave badly) and quite often the encounter was reduced to one person who'd somehow avoided the fear spam trying to locate the leader who could run away faster than a light warhorse and could turn corners when executing run actions. The two NPCs with fear effects just shattered a lot of parties (even the L12 parties often didn't have hero feast running, it took place around dinner time on a city-social-shopping kind of day), and even those who made will saves were often yo-yoing back by being put in fear condition one round, then spending another round running back from wherever they fled to. We didn't intend the NPC's to be this good at disrupting the party, but at tiers where Fear was the go-to instead of color spray, it was surprisingly effective combined with an area-intimidate effect from the barbarian, and in the lower tiers "cause fear" + intimidate got rid of the high will save nuisances for a round that weren't blinded or unconscious from earlier color sprays.


For a party that isn't immune to poison, it is harder to design this kind of encounter by accident, but I've seen it done on purpose. Hezerou for the DC24 fort save or nauseated while tossing off 3 blasphemies to dazelock the party long enough to force a lot of saves, Baubau to spam targeted dispel magics on every party member until they're killed, maybe a couple other minions to push dazed PCs into the nausea range. The bad guys also had a bard and a person in danger of being sacrificed just to make the action economy calculations even harder. The main reason parties get through it is that some are savvy enough to have a plan for blasphemy and that the Baubau dispels aren't that reliable against anybody who can cast a hero feast. (the dispels can also mess with a plan to use cheap silence consumables to shield vs blasphemy, so there are two prongs to this encounter threat). It's also just harder to get a whole party in that nausea aura (unless they grouped up to all be covered by one silence spell vs blasphemy+shutting down the bard near the sacrifice, which is otherwise good tactics - the blasphemy will kill the sacrifice if she can hear it so...). Also that particular encounter the party could scout and learn the layout before engaging, or get that info by interrogating the lookout magically or otherwise, so it was assumed the PCs would be ready for some part of the threat. A common approach was to use the surprise round to literally get a caster next to the sacrifice and dim-door or teleport the the sacrifice entirely out of the area, and then the rest of the party got into trouble from dispel+nausea+blasphemy str drain, leaving the savior to return and cautiously try to rescue everybody else or defeat the enemy via something like Banishment or really, really uncorked artillery type offense they saved for emergencies.

You could set that encounter up to be a close quarters encounter where surprise is likely though, and it could be very tough.

[Gruftzwerg]

We're at page 4 and as it seem no one has mentioned "Body outside Body" (7th Wu-Jen) so far.
I'm disappointed in you! :smalltongue:
Never underestimate the power of clones. I've 2 game breaking TO build around BoB.
3.5 is an ideal playground to play clonewars xD

[Seward]

We're at page 4 and as it seem no one has mentioned "Body outside Body" (7th Wu-Jen) so far.


Well for me, it might be that I've never had the opportunity to play where Wu-Jen was allowed, not even as a bad guy :) I'm vaguely aware there is some clone abuse though. I've actually done that sort of thing in Champions - one of my mercenaries was called "Agent the One Man Army". Basically a guy who was an elite agent who knew how to use supertech to fight superheros, who after splitting into 8 forms, could be equipped to taste then split into 4 more teams with some mix of assault rifle/grenade generic agent, heavy weapon (big cannons that could knock brick-type heroes on their ass), vehicle operator, undercover agent, tech widget guy, whatever was needed. Absolutely a go-to in order to test experimental gear which had only 1 prototype in the field....very popular with the mad scientists. Hated by the PCs because one of his abilities was a (rare) ability to recombine all duplicates at range with any other duplicate, making capturing him nearly impossible, plus they found it a bit embarrassing to keep getting roughly handled by an individual whose physical abilities were merely "trained human" level, aside from his amazing duplication power.

Eventually some bad guy got annoyed with him and started killing the duplicates when they made appearances, and he ended with maybe a dozen survivors and vanished from the scene, probably finding a safer line of work. He couldn't recombine them when they're dead. He probably could have just spent xp to get more duplicates (it scaled by doubling, it would have been expensive but not impossibly so) but there was trauma in all those deaths so I decided he'd call it quits.

I had a lower-rent street-level hero called Mister Harmony built along the same lines who could become 16 people and do things like grab a moped and a fire extinguisher, and arrive as a small army of dudes rumbling down the street shutting down the fire-projector bad guy and all the collateral damage he was causing....

Anything that gets you massive action economy with anything in shouting distance of a combat effective person is likely to be useful, especially on offense. Although come to think of it I got a lot of mileage out of using servant horde just to do utility actions with my otherwise unused move action...

[ben-zayb]

We're at page 4 and as it seem no one has mentioned "Body outside Body" (7th Wu-Jen) so far.
I'm disappointed in you! :smalltongue:
Never underestimate the power of clones. I've 2 game breaking TO build around BoB.
3.5 is an ideal playground to play clonewars xD
Because the prompt was asking for spells from the spell list of "the big three". That said, it didn't stop people from bringing up Glibness from the bard's spell list.

[Ramza00]

Because the prompt was asking for spells from the spell list of "the big three". That said, it didn't stop people from bringing up Glibness from the bard's spell list.

I almost posted improvisation another fabulous* spell from the bard list, then I remember it was the big three.

*only at later levels, but at later levels it is easy to circlet of rapid casting it, just when the bonuses started to get good. 👍

[RandomPeasant]

When you don't have it a routine encounter can turn into a rescue loop death spiral or even a TPK with remarkable speed.

If fear and poison are easily putting you into death spirals, your problem is that you're not playing very well, not that you didn't get off heroes' feast. It's certainly a useful tool, but it's a useful tool because it lets you get value out of a spell slot you might not have used otherwise. planar binding lets you get a much larger amount of value out of many spell slots that you definitely could not have used otherwise.


Basically the GM negotiation with Planar Binding isn't considered to be worth it for anybody I've every played with.

This is exactly "the spell gets nerfed because the RAW version is game-breaking", which makes it the perfect answer to OP's question.


Claiming Heroes' Feast is the most overpowered for its level, when it's at the same level as Planar Binding, is inching awfully close to Oberoni Fallacy.

Exactly. The idea that planar binding is bad comes down to what planar binding actually does being so broken that no one is ever going to let you do it. One casting gets you an XP-free wish (no, the Efreet is not going to refuse you, it can't use wishes on its own and you can pay with other spells). Just using it in the exact way it is intended to be used gets you an army of mooks that are potentially as powerful as anyone else in the party.


I don't agree though that it's an I win button, because it is written in such a way that the GM is either encouraged to screw with any player that tries to abuse it, or if the GM doesn't feel that limit is strong enough for what it gives, it simply gets banned.

It getting banned is an argument that it is the answer to OP's question. If you are asking "which of these things is better" and you are not allowed to use one of them because it is too good, that is the better thing. The GM isn't really encouraged to screw with you, it's just that there's a strong "if we contort RAW enough we can pretend things aren't broken" contingent who tries to fix it that way. But that doesn't even really work, because when you get down to it "demons come after you for revenge" is either "rocks fall everyone dies" or an adventure specifically about your character, neither of which is really limiting the impact of the spell.


1. Critter gets a save. It can always roll a 20, and you have to cast the damn thing again

Yes, you can cast the spell that you have neither obligation to nor interest in casting during an adventuring day again. Unless you are playing on an extremely tight timescale, this limit is effectively meaningless, as if you are allowed to turn every slot that can cast planar binding into bound allies you'd break the game even if half of them failed. And if you are playing on a really right timescale, it is entirely plausible that heroes' feast is also unworkable.


2. It isn't one spell it is 3 spells (Planar Biding, Dim Anchor, Circle of Prot <alignment>.

Two of which can be reused, one of which is only needed for certain creatures, and all of which can be cast during downtime. Needing to spend the spells known is something of a concern for Sorcerers, but for anyone else it's just not a big deal.


3. The hitdie limit is supposed to matter, but WOTC published low HD critters with really powerful SLAs, which is where the cheese comes in. GM says those guys don't exist in his universe, the rest of the critters aren't more powerful than what you can bring in with Summon Monster XXX, just lasts longer.

Again, "the DM could nerf it" is you conceding the argument. And even if the DM nerfs it to CR:HD ratios found in summon monster, you can still get things at or above your nominal CR from planar binding and greater planar binding.


4. Opposed charisma checks to persuade them. If you roll a 1 it escapes. Also there isn't any mechanism to know if you succeeded, and a lot of these guys are good at lying. "Sure I agree". You release them. They laugh at you and leave or attack depending on how they figure the odds.

"This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve..." indicates that you do know whether or not the process worked. If you could just repeat it until the creature convinced you it was willing to serve, it would say "this process can be repeated as often as you wish". The creature tricking you is modeled by the nat-1 case.


5. Even if all goes to plan and they do the service without perverting it somehow... The creature may later seek revenge

How will I, a character who has found an ability that allows me to defeat creatures substantially more powerful than me, manage to defeat a creature that is, at best, slightly more powerful than me? The idea that "you will have enemies" is some big deal is a fundamental misunderstanding of how being an adventurer works. You're always going to have enemies, that's what the whole "adventurer" thing is about. If you're really worried, called creatures can be killed for real, so just do that before cycling them back out.


Also outside the rules, but within the gameworld, is the fact that there may be social consequences for the dangerous and heartless act of trying to force service from something that doesn't belong in this world in the first place. That is to say, there are multiple ways it may not fit the setting. That's less likely to be true for heroes' feast, a benign effect to help the hometown heroes save the day.

You don't have to summon horrible monsters from the depths of hell to serve you with planar binding. You can also command literal angels, which seem sort of unlikely to cause PR problems.


"A clever recipient can subvert some instructions." So even when it's actively performing your task, things might not go the way you intended.

People love to bring this up, but they never seem to consider how absolutely miserable this would be to use as a balancing mechanism. Do you want to negotiate a binding contract every time the Wizard casts planar binding? A negotiation that, of course, has at best a tangential relationship to what is happening in-game, as both you and the Wizard's player are likely less intelligent than the in-game actors.


Removing the benefit of planar binding can be easier than removing the benefit of heroes' feast. Dismissal allows a save but is unlikely to be resisted by a creature bound against its will if that creature recognizes the effect.

Yes, but you can have many bound allies, and unlike heroes' feast they give your side extra actions.


We're at page 4 and as it seem no one has mentioned "Body outside Body" (7th Wu-Jen) so far.

body outside body is a bit of an odd spell. If you just cast it, it tends not be very good. The clones can't cast spells or use magic items, so typical caster builds won't have anything to do with it. But with some effort to build around it (SLAs from somewhere, non-caster Theurge builds, or gestalt), it becomes extremely powerful.

[Troacctid]

Planar binding is just a fancy way of procuring hirelings, and if the guidelines in FC2 are any indication of typical negotiations, long-term service is not all that cheap. It's powerful in the abstract, and I don't mind listing it for the purpose of this thread, but IMO it's not all THAT much more powerful than hiring ordinary hirelings, and it introduces annoying logistical issues. I would gladly take heroes' feast, a powerful party buff spell with an absurd duration, over it any day of the week.

[Zanos]

Planar binding is just a fancy way of procuring hirelings, and if the guidelines in FC2 are any indication of typical negotiations, long-term service is not all that cheap. It's powerful in the abstract, and I don't mind listing it for the purpose of this thread, but IMO it's not all THAT much more powerful than hiring ordinary hirelings, and it introduces annoying logistical issues. I would gladly take heroes' feast, a powerful party buff spell with an absurd duration, over it any day of the week.
Only if your DM makes the devil negotation rules both mandatory, and extend to all things that are not devils. Which would be weird, because IIRC they contain examples of sacrificing creatures or promising torture victims for favorable circumstances. And you know, the books contain examples of fiends that were pressed into service without reward with planar binding.

And even that can still be made irrelevant, since a 9th level wizard with planar binding is usually perfectly capable of violating consent.

[RandomPeasant]

planar binding is just like employing hirelings in that when you hire a 1st level Warrior they come with the ability to summon three additional 1st level Warriors.

Hmm, perhaps planar binding is not like that at all.

This thing where people are acting contrarian about how "two immunities and some temp HP" is totally better than a spell that shatters game balance is just bizarre. No one is telling you that you have to allow people to abuse planar binding at your table. But the question is about spells that are "the most OP for the level they are listed at", and comparing the most broken spell in the game to a buff that's most impressive feature is that you don't need to spend actions to cast it is just not remotely close by any accounting.

[Thunder999]

I really can't believe people are arguing planar binding is worse than Hero's Feast. It's one of the strongest spells in the entire game, absolutely up there with Shapechange and Gate (arguably greater planar binding can be better than gate since you can get minions for longer and it's free, though gate obviously has its own advantages).

It's functionally infinite minions, infinite wishes and wealth via said minions.

Even wtihout going that far it's strong minions for a long duration.

[vasilidor]

Certain poisons have very distinctive tastes. Prestidigitation can change taste of food.
Disease often carries a smell with it and scent can be altered with the spell. you can also use it to alter skin color.
Point is it can make bluffs without the character needing to make bluffs.

[Thurbane]

Let me start by saying that I'm responding as if the question means "what are the FEW most overpowered spells of each level", not "what is the SINGLE most overpowered spell of each level". The question can be interpreted either way. That may be the source of some of our disagreement.

Sorry for any ambiguity: I wasn't specifically looking for a list, 0 - 9, with one spell of each level. Just general discussion about what are considered OP spells for the level you get them as a standard caster.

[RandomPeasant]

(arguably greater planar binding can be better than gate since you can get minions for longer and it's free, though gate obviously has its own advantages).

gate is closer to summon monster than planar binding in a lot of ways. It's got a standard action casting time, so you can plausibly use it in combat, and it has an explicit "fight this battle" option. There are certainly things you can summon with it that you can't get with greater planar binding, but the latter is better for army-building. The other advantage of gate is that it has some utility options, like the travel mode and the Free Vacation: No Save trick. Overall though, nothing it does is enough to push out shapechange as the easily-best 9th level spell.

[Wonton64]

Certain poisons have very distinctive tastes. Prestidigitation can change taste of food.
Disease often carries a smell with it and scent can be altered with the spell. you can also use it to alter skin color.
Point is it can make bluffs without the character needing to make bluffs.

Is this listed elsewhere than the spell itself? The spell says you can color non-living material, not skin. Same with smells, I don't see anywhere that says it can cover up a living being's scent. It says you can flavor food (and specifically mentions spicing up bland food), not totally mask existing flavors.

Furthermore, if every hedge wizard in the world could mask the taste of poison in food with a cantrip, I imagine that every person with even the smallest concern that they could be poisoned would come equipped with a Wand of Detect Magic. Or their own novice spellcaster.

[Seward]

How will I, a character who has found an ability that allows me to defeat creatures substantially more powerful than me, manage to defeat a creature that is, at best, slightly more powerful than me?

You'll probably never encounter that creature again. It, however will go around making your life miserable, providing aid and comfort to your enemies, killing any vulnerable loved ones, kidnapping the person who was supposed to help you pursue your latest mission, stealing your wealth when it isn't around, killing your mounts, starting whispering campaigns against you, putting out bounties against you, anything is possible, depends on exactly what the creature can do, what it can offer.

Basically by using this spell you are explicitly saying "DBAD" out of game contract doesn't apply, that you are willing to make enemies like you'd use a material component. Unless you do intend to stick to mostly mindless brutes as minions, this can and will bite you in the ass, and maybe eventually your party will get fed up with your baggage interfering in all their missions.

And the more you use the planar binding, you will add to the variety and capabilities of the "Joe Planar Binding Guy is a Jerk" fanclub, who will probably start working with each other to make it worse. But no, they won't confront you physically. You did after all dominate them with your magic in a humiliating way. Best you never have any idea the source of all your woes, lest you summon them again.

[JNAProductions]

You'll probably never encounter that creature again. It, however will go around making your life miserable, providing aid and comfort to your enemies, killing any vulnerable loved ones, kidnapping the person who was supposed to help you pursue your latest mission, stealing your wealth when it isn't around, killing your mounts, starting whispering campaigns against you, putting out bounties against you, anything is possible, depends on exactly what the creature can do, what it can offer.

Basically by using this spell you are explicitly saying "DBAD" out of game contract doesn't apply, that you are willing to make enemies like you'd use a material component. Unless you do intend to stick to mostly mindless brutes as minions, this can and will bite you in the ass, and maybe eventually your party will get fed up with your baggage interfering in all their missions.

And the more you use the planar binding, you will add to the variety and capabilities of the "Joe Planar Binding Guy is a Jerk" fanclub, who will probably start working with each other to make it worse. But no, they won't confront you physically. You did after all dominate them with your magic in a humiliating way. Best you never have any idea the source of all your woes, lest you summon them again.

"Guys, we need to take on the Dark Master in Mount Doom. We've got a month till the Bad Ritual is completed, but luckily, as an 11th level Wizard, I can summon up some Angels to help us. It would normally cost us some money, but since the Bad Ritual would topple the celestial order, we can probably get their help for pretty cheap."

If you deal with evil creatures, you might get screwed.
If you bind creatures for tasks against their nature, you might get screwed.
If you use the spell to summon good creatures to help you with good tasks? Why on earth would they screw you over?

Plus, summoning a creature to serve you... That's literally what the spell is for. So, if you consider it a dingus move to use the intended purpose of the spell, just ban the spell outright as a DM.

[Seward]

Certain poisons have very distinctive tastes. Prestidigitation can change taste of food.
Disease often carries a smell with it and scent can be altered with the spell. you can also use it to alter skin color.
Point is it can make bluffs without the character needing to make bluffs.

I didn't list my level 0 spell pick. I'd put prestidigitation in as a contender. I've used it to clean up after being dropped in a sewer, to dry off when I've fallen through ice into water that will kill you from exposure in minutes after being pulled out, as a disguise kit, as a minor light source when I had nothing else, to protect an unprotected scroll from inclement weather long enough to use it, as a flavoring for disgusting food when I had to be polite, as a way to gather up rare dust that had scattered when its container was breached.

That said, I think Create Water is my pick for my list. It can keep a party from dying of dehydration, it can put out fires, wash off caustic fluids, be a poor-man's prestidigitation to clean the muck off if you can tolerate getting wet and you actually get enough volume to do things like be a large weight for a lever arm if you can contain the result.




If you deal with evil creatures, you might get screwed.
If you bind creatures for tasks against their nature, you might get screwed.
If you use the spell to summon good creatures to help you with good tasks? Why on earth would they screw you over?


Good is not nice and good is not dumb. Those creatures have stuff they're supposed to be doing to preserve the cosmic all and some mortal is yanking them out of their proper duties to do some stupid task that is the job of mortals to just freaking do on their own. The guys on Summon Monster duty are right there after all, use them!

Unlike Planar Ally, these beings have no reason to work for you, they have no connection as they would with a cleric's deity. Even with such a connection, such beings don't take on jobs without proper payment. As I noted earlier, any being (of any ethos, evil or chaotic included) would at MINIMUM charge whatever they'd normally charge for a planar ally to avoid the "and it might turn the being into an enemy" risk, and probably would charge a little extra because they don't know you. You are literally wasting their time, and being what they are, their time is cosmically important.

If you browbeat them (win cha checks etc) to negotiate the price down, expect there to be a chance that this will come back on you.

In my experience, conflicts with outsiders of your own alignment aren't that uncommon. My most memorable scenario is our party for what we considered to be very good reasons had stopped Tenser (yes THAT Tenser)'s henchmen from taking some artifact mcguffin and were going to return it to our own patron. Tenser sent a Planetar after us. Unfortunately for said Planetar, it was unable to convince our party (which contained several Pholtus followers, LG god of among other things "inflexibility") that his patron had any right to it just because some random outsider minion was sent to retrieve it, and we'd treat it like the other guys we'd defeated taking it if it tried (we did not choose to be diplomatic, and we had refrained from killiing those other dudes, although we did loot the bodies).

Well, we disabled and knocked it out in about 2 rounds, it never got an (uninterrupted) action. My wife's character happened to the highest ranking Sacred Exorcist in the Pale, and that title was backed mechanically by a build designed by level 1 to banish outsiders. Any outsider. We could have done that round 1 but we wanted to make a point. She pinned a note to its unconscious body in celestial to consider its place in the cosmos compared to Pholtus and to be smarter next time, and banished it back to the home plane.

I don't imagine that planetar was especially happy with Tenser for sending it on a mission against other LG mortals who clearly were way out of its weight class. However good a reason Tenser claimed when he convinced it to take the job.

[RandomPeasant]

Unless you do intend to stick to mostly mindless brutes as minions, this can and will bite you in the ass, and maybe eventually your party will get fed up with your baggage interfering in all their missions.

Think about what you are actually describing. Using planar binding results in a situation where the entire campaign is about the use of planar binding. It has warped the game to the point where the resolution is "people get bored from dealing with planar binding consequences all the time so we gentleman's agreement it out". If a spell does that, it is incredibly overpowered. The equivalent argument applied to heroes' feast would be that since everyone has heroes' feast up all the time after 11th level, no DM would use enemies with poison or fear attacks, so all the spell does is give some temp HP. Seems kind of terrible, no?

[Seward]

The consequences of Hero's feast limits do come up, so poison and fear encounters are on the table, just with less chance of totally hosing a party than a party caught without it. Those limitations include 12 hr duration, extremely long casting time and dispellable.

This can affect encounter design (but usually doesn't, as I've repeatedly said, most encounters that prove problematic to a 12+th level party without it have the poison or fear as a side-effect, rather than a main aspect of the enemy, often on relatively low CR critters so it causes a LOT of die rolls, or opportunities for "save partial" or sufficient action economy to turn shaken into afraid with a +30 intimidation check to be a pretty good action for the enemy once they know fear can affect you.)

Mostly though the monsters are what they are, doing what they do for their own motives and whether or not the party buffs properly (or can buff properly) is a problem similar to "did we get a circle of prot evil down on the guys who can be mind controlled". That's another quite powerful spell, and might have been a choice of mine if I hadn't considered Phantom Steed even more game changing. Barring a whole party of monks and druids poison will still come up occasionally, and barring a whole party of paladins, fear will come into play, but it's dangerous primarily when protections get removed, or can't be cast for some reason ahead of time or in combat (circle prot evil doesn't last long enough for all day, but can be cast on a friendly and moved over a controlled party member, which is good enough to recover from charm spam as Bhargests or Succubi do)


Planar binding causes campaign level consequences FOR THE CASTER. As in it has a cost that is far more severe than simple cash or xp, but it's random and scales with what sort of thing you summon. But basically the more game-breaking a thing you summon, the larger that risk is. So it's both powerful and perilous and in a campaign setting (as opposed to a one-off adventure or bad-guy use) you are basically encouraging your GM to eventually screw your character. Not your party. That character personally. And the more you use it, the more tools you hand your GM until the weight of it will cause your character to exit the campaign. To save the world? Sure. A retirement plot? Sure, although your happily ever after will be less secure. As a routine tool in your toolkit? Probably a bad idea.

I'm really not sure why all of this is such a hot button. Nobody's beating up my choice of "Obscuring Mist" which is EXACTLY the same kind of spell, yelling at me because I didn't choose Charm Person instead. Shuts down sneak attack encounters, targeted spell spam, ubercharger or other pounce-type enemies, all kinds of things. But people still create those encounters even though the tool exists on nearly every spell list and most parties will have at least 2 people with access to the spell.

I must have stumbled into something like the Batman Wizard vs Sorcerer debate, where people have very strong opinions and feel the need to try to convince folks that won't agree with you. I feel it has an echo because while I grant the strengths of planar binding, all the advocates handwave the risks, where all the folks who seem to think I made a decent choice seem well aware of its limits and risks.

[Zanos]

You'll probably never encounter that creature again. It, however will go around making your life miserable, providing aid and comfort to your enemies, killing any vulnerable loved ones, kidnapping the person who was supposed to help you pursue your latest mission, stealing your wealth when it isn't around, killing your mounts, starting whispering campaigns against you, putting out bounties against you, anything is possible, depends on exactly what the creature can do, what it can offer.
Considering what actual life is like for outsiders, especially those in the lower planes, it's very unlikely that a creature will have much time and energy to spend on conspiring against you. Of course they're still likely to be pissed off about it, but it's not like they usually have the option to stop getting killed in the millions in the blood war and dedicate their life to making trouble for you. And what happens when a devil tells their superior they couldn't make it to the front line for three weeks because a pathetic mortal spellcaster bound him? He probably gets his head cut off as an example to the others. It's LE in all caps, remember? H-E-Double-L. Not Lawful Evil but I promise to hear out my subordinates problems in good faith even though they have technically broken the rules. Devils aren't exactly big on making sure the right person gets punished for screwing up as long as someone gets punished, and it's a lot more convenient to punish the guy right in front of you than the guy who is at least a dimension away. As long as you aren't repeatedly kidnapping the same guys minions, he's probably not going to make time to screw you over, because he can't, and his boss is a literal devil with a complete lack of empathy.

Of course if your DM wants to be a stickler about it, you can just kill(and as a bonus, reanimate) them when you're done. Demons and devils getting KIA happens constantly. Just do your research and pick targets that are on the front lines. They won't be missed. Even Devils send their inconvenient lessers to die in the blood war every day. If you felt like it you could probably contact a powerful devil to serve as a dumping ground for subordinates he doesn't want to deal with anymore. Demons are even easier. A demon going missing probably isn't even going to make anyone in the abyss blink unless it's a guy with serious rep. And even then, it's just an opening. Only the folks at the tippy top are going to care, and it takes a lot to get their attention.

This stuff never happens to lore NPCs either for some reason. There's written examples too of NPC spellcasters who bind tons of fiends against their will, even ones as powerful as Pit Fiends, badly abuse them, and no consequences come from it. Well, apart from adventurers showing up to break their stuff, of course.

Celestials might make a stink about it if you use planar binding to make them do something unjust, however. Probably not a great idea. But it would be pretty screwed up for a bunch of angels to get together to smite a spellcaster for using planar binding to have them fight a demonic cult, or undead, or a world ending plague, or etc. They might not like not getting their planar ally bucks but I don't think they're going to form an alliance to have you killed.

[Seward]

This stuff never happens to lore NPCs either for some reason. There's written examples too of NPC spellcasters who bind tons of fiends against their will, even ones as powerful as Pit Fiends, badly abuse them, and no consequences come from it. Well, apart from adventurers showing up to break their stuff, of course.


Well, as somebody who actually used the "Emnity of a Major Devil" deck of many things result against a major party BBEG as his ultimate downfall (he also benefitted from better picks) back in 1e (the devil went to tell the worst enemies of the BBEG his tactics, strategy, hidden goals and how to defeat the divinations he was using to avoid fights he could lose - and some of those enemies also got the PC's involved as the biggest hammer sympathetic to defeating that guy they could lay hands on)...I've actually thought out this sort of thing in actual play from the GM side.

As for your NPCs, I'm not familiar with your examples, aside from they probably all come to a bad end. Who is to say some abused pit fiend didn't send out minions or allies to nurture the PC's, help them level up over the ages then point them at his tormentor? Why exactly is it that such a powerful NPC didn't squish the PC's when they were level6? Or at least make an effort when they started getting powerful enough to be a threat? One thing that helps explain the outcomes is that it isn't PC plot immunity but powerful (but secret given the ethos of the likely PCs) aid from all the outsiders that dude had abused over the years.

(actually come to think of it, I've played this exact plot as a PC in Living Greyhawk. A pit fiend several adventures into a 6 part adventure stretching over 3 years at one point talked to us and said "yes, I'm super evil and awful but the guy I want you to humiliate and destroy is somebody you would want to kill anyway. If you don't already know, here is why he is an awful person and what his future plans are. Plus I know the secret of the plot token you need to find his extraplanar gate, and I'll tell you with no strings cause I hate him that much. Even though it means I will remain bound and trapped in this prison because you killed my cultists. I'm immortal, I can wait for more cultists to show up.")

Canonically in the only campaign I'm familiar with where fiends were released on the world on a large scale, only Iuz (an actual god native to Greyhawk) really was capable of binding large numbers of fiends but doing so got other similarly powerful entities involved (Crook of Rao, Flight of the Fiends) which left him in a rather bad state (when you run a CE society, and a bunch of your spies and enforcers vanish a lot of your lieutenants start to get ideas and your enemies get bold). I mean, he was still a god and ruled over an empire and all, but the mortals who opposed him had a lot more success once his "planar binding abuses" were stopped. That downfall was engineered by groups as diverse as Elf Freedom Fighters, Human Paladin Kingdoms and For the EEEVILZ devil worship Horned Society. And two Pholtan Theocracies that each considered the other to be heretical.

Show me an example of somebody who died in bed with adoring (and alive) friends and family with all goals accomplished who used Planar Binding as a significant tool and I'll buy that at least once canonically that whole "and they might become your enemy" thing isn't actually a big problem.

[JNAProductions]

Again-literally the FIRST Angel on the SRD, an Astral Deva (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm), is summonable with Planar Binding cast by an 11th level Wizard.

If you "bind" it (use Planar Binding to get it in front of you, basically) to help root out a nefarious cult that's wrecking a city... What form will their vengeance take? Or, if you get it to help you stop Orcus' minions from tearing open a rift to the Abyss, what form will the vengeance be then?

I'm curious.

[Seward]

Again-literally the FIRST Angel on the SRD, an Astral Deva (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm), is summonable with Planar Binding cast by an 11th level Wizard.

If you "bind" it (use Planar Binding to get it in front of you, basically) to help root out a nefarious cult that's wrecking a city... What form will their vengeance take? Or, if you get it to help you stop Orcus' minions from tearing open a rift to the Abyss, what form will the vengeance be then?

I'm curious.

Did you pay it the Planar ALLY bribe cost plus a tax for not having a relationship with your deity?

If so, no charge. But if you only use it that way, the spell is strictly worse than Planar Ally.

If you tried to get it to do the job on the cheap, it'll probably react the same way being would cheated out of its rightful dues. Your job would come first, and it would do it, but if it survived it would take some kind of proportional response that isn't likely to involve violence theft or destruction (it is after all a NG creature), but is fairly likely to involve damage to your reputation or something like taking some of the reward for saving the world as a temple donation instead of paid to you if it can pull it off with your patron.

It is an int 18 wis 18 cha 20 creature with diplomacy 22, intimidate 20 with teleport and telepathy, and it is free to act when on this plane of existence as long as taking the time to do its little side communications don't endanger the mission. I am sure it will think of something.

Or to put it another way. If you teleported to a NG Duke's bedchamber and used Charm Person on the Duke to get him to go along with helping you, when the spell wears off he'll be pissed, even if helping you could have been a shared goal under more normal circumstances. You risked his person in combat where death could harm the realm (again, if the Deva dies in your fight, whatever duties it had get undone) and you used magic to force your will and shortcut proper procedures rather than do things the proper way (for a Duke, go through channels. For a Deva, use a damn summon spell, that's what they are there for, or pay the Planar Ally price or better just find a cleric to use Planar Ally)


Considering what actual life is like for outsiders, especially those in the lower planes, it's very unlikely that a creature will have much time and energy to spend on conspiring against you.

Planar binding lets them run free on the Prime Material till it notifies you that the task is done. These creatures can set up quite a lot to damage you just in the time they're running the mission, assuming you bound somebody with teleport, telepathy and social skills, which is most of them. Those without that but with something like a "grant another's wish" well, I've seen how that works too (an efreet trapped in an extradimensional pocket started granting wishes to anybody it could communicate with in exchange for everybody helping it escape when some outsider (ie the Pcs) breached the area....a real plot from a real game)

[JNAProductions]

Did you pay it the Planar ALLY bribe cost plus a tax for not having a relationship with your deity?

If so, no charge. But if you only use it that way, the spell is strictly worse than Planar Ally.

If you tried to get it to do the job on the cheap, it'll probably react the same way being would cheated out of its rightful dues. Your job would come first, and it would do it, but if it survived it would take some kind of proportional response that isn't likely to involve violence theft or destruction (it is after all a NG creature), but is fairly likely to involve damage to your reputation or something like taking some of the reward for saving the world as a temple donation instead of paid to you if it can pull it off with your patron.

It is an int 18 wis 18 cha 20 creature with diplomacy 22, intimidate 20 with teleport and telepathy, and it is free to act when on this plane of existence as long as taking the time to do its little side communications don't endanger the mission. I am sure it will think of something.

Or to put it another way. If you teleported to a NG Duke's bedchamber and used Charm Person on the Duke to get him to go along with helping you, when the spell wears off he'll be pissed, even if helping you could have been a shared goal under more normal circumstances. You risked his person in combat where death could harm the realm (again, if the Deva dies in your fight, whatever duties it had get undone) and you used magic to force your will rather than paying the customary fee to have him send in his mercenary army.

So, a paragon of goodness, a literal being made of the stuff of good... Is going to take petty revenge on someone who needed their help to do something good?

I have no doubts an Astral Deva COULD make someone's life suck a lot if they were inclined to. But that feels a lot more like "DM doesn't like the spell, so is screwing me over because of that," than a reasonable IC response.

[RandomPeasant]

The whole "you have to pay them" thing is just a distraction, because you can trivially use planar binding to break WBL. Like, okay, fine I paid them. I'll even pretend that I can't pay them by casting spells for them and needed to pony up actual gold. I'll just pay them with money I get at 75k/Efreet from Efreet. Who are not going to pursue me for revenge because it took them, generously, half an hour, and I can give them some of the gold, which they can't generate themselves because they need to grant their wishes to someone. People simplify planar binding to "you get free mooks" because all the parts of it that aren't "you get free mooks" are either deeply tedious out-of-game concerns or trivial to avoid when you are casting a spell that lets you break the game.


Barring a whole party of monks and druids poison will still come up occasionally

The point is that this is not necessarily true. You can write an entire campaign that includes exactly zero poison or fear effects, and in that campaign heroes' feast is expensive temp HP. That's the analogy to "what if people get so frustrated with planar binding taking the spotlight that they ask you to stop using it". And what do you know, heroes' feast is pretty bad under the standard.


Planar binding causes campaign level consequences FOR THE CASTER.

"Antagonists exist" is not "campaign level consequences", it is "there is a campaign". Saying "people will cause problems for you" like its a downside is fundamentally misunderstanding adventurers. There is going to be some adventure. If that adventure is "the Efreet you bound, paid for his services with in-kind spellcasting, and then sent home is sending people after you for some reason", the only "consequence" for the caster is that they are the center of attention for an adventure.


Nobody's beating up my choice of "Obscuring Mist" which is EXACTLY the same kind of spell, yelling at me because I didn't choose Charm Person instead.

Well, you are actually wrong to suggest that the best 1st level spell is not something from the list silent image, color spray, and sleep, because those are the best 1st level spells. The reason no one is complaining about you not choosing charm person is that it doesn't do much on its own. It has a minute/level duration, and it is dependent on your DM giving you stuff to charm (and unlike dominate person, the consequence of doing so isn't destabilizing). It is a nice tool for a Beguiler, who gets both it and Diplomancy, but it's not especially strong on its own.


all the advocates handwave the risks, where all the folks who seem to think I made a decent choice seem well aware of its limits and risks.

You're the one handwaving risks. The spell says "the creature may seek revenge". Apparently this automatically means "the DM is going to drop the creature into the narrative in such a way as to solve problems for the PCs without giving them an opportunity to confront it directly". Even if we ignore the thing where "you, an adventurer, have an adventure" is supposed to be a bad thing, you could still bind creatures with no way to seek revenge, or bind creatures that aren't inclined to seek revenge, or compensate creatures with your own spellcasting, or kill creatures when you're done with them. And even if we do grant that the spell turns into an escalatory spiral, that is still the spell being campaign-warpingly OP. So even if your entire argument is correct, what you are describing is a better answer for OP's question than the one you offered.


Who is to say some abused pit fiend didn't send out minions or allies to nurture the PC's, help them level up over the ages then point them at his tormentor?

The adventure path where that is not the thing that happened? Obviously if we re-write everything behind the scenes to agree with your theory, you're right, but it seems like more work than just not doing that and having you be wrong.


One thing that helps explain the outcomes is that it isn't PC plot immunity but powerful (but secret given the ethos of the likely PCs) aid from all the outsiders that dude had abused over the years.

Except that these same outcomes occur for villains who had no access to planar binding whatsoever. I agree that "why doesn't the big guy squish the little guy" is a question you need to answer, but inventing a novel theory of the behavior of planar binding is far from the easiest way to go about it.


Show me an example of somebody who died in bed with adoring (and alive) friends and family with all goals accomplished

Show me an example of a villain who didn't use planar binding and did this.

[Dimers]

you can just kill(and as a bonus, reanimate) them

Thanks, that made me giggle :smalltongue:


Show me an example of somebody who died in bed with adoring (and alive) friends and family with all goals accomplished who used Planar Binding as a significant tool and I'll buy that at least once canonically that whole "and they might become your enemy" thing isn't actually a big problem.

Hell, I'm on your side and even I don't feel it's a big problem. Just one of many possible drawbacks that typically get ignored or handwaved in theoretical discussions. I agree that usually outsiders and elementals are just going to go back to doing whatever they were doing before, grumpy but not out for blood. I'm just, like ... don't say it'll never happen. Even angels can get furious if you stab them in the pride often enough.

As for good-aligned PCs binding angels for a common cause, sure, that should generally work without in-game problems. (Still problematic in terms of spotlight time and so forth.) But outside of this thread, I can't recall a single time I've seen a forumgoer talk about a good-aligned planar binder. Usually it's "murder" this and "break the deal" that and "conquer" the other, not "let's get together and make the world a better place". In another recent thread, for example, the suggestion was that if the outsider didn't like the deal offered, the binder should just fit them with a necrotic tumor. Not exactly a good-aligned proposition.

All in all, I grasp why planar binding is considered OP. It's justified. I'm only pointing out that it does have drawbacks and limitations that are all-too-often glossed over. That's my pet peeve.

[Seward]

"Antagonists exist" is not "campaign level consequences", it is "there is a campaign".

"There is a campaign" is the antagonists your party fights.

These are people who don't care about your party, or its goals. They care only about you, the summoner, personally. The campaign can go on when they take you out of it (or your party members - characters or players, eject you because you bring more extra trouble on them than you add value)



The adventure path where that is not the thing that happened? Obviously if we re-write everything behind the scenes to agree with your theory, you're right, but it seems like more work than just not doing that and having you be wrong.


"Running with the Baatzu" series, Living Greyhawk, author Chris Chesire.

Three 1-round adventures in the level 2, 4 or 6 expected party range, one in the 2.4.6.8 range and then a final 2-round adventure with expected party level 6,8,10 or 12.

"When Orcs Attack"
"A Tiger? In Ahlissa?"
"Sympathy for the Baatzu"
"It Never Rains in Nyrond"
"All Roads Lead to Rauxes".

I still have about half of these downloaded because I was involved in playtesting most of them and have draft versions floating around that survived me purging most of my LG GMing stuff back when the campaign died. The plot was explicitly about a bound Pit Fiend who was screwed over by a mortal summoner and got revenge (after his last attempt to escape a prison was defeated by PCs) by telling the PCs all the reasons said summoner was a terrible person, what awful multiplanar disaster the summoner was trying to use a mystic conjunction in near future to attempt and exactly how to get what they needed to get access to the demiplane where said ritual could be disrupted (it was actually a time loop where a city's magical destruction had caused it to be trapped "groundhog day" in its last day, and the location where the ritual had to take place was in there).

It was also explicit that some of the hooks that pulled PCs in were instigated by said Pit Fiend, both directly through limited power he could exert near his prison, and by his cultists under his direction.

A problem for some more Chaotic or Good PC's is taking any help from a Pit Fiend, but then they are adventuring in a Lawful Evil empire, so they are already accepting some facts of life about keeping a low profile and maybe doing a few things that make you feel dirty just to accomplish anything there. The way playtesting worked is the author ran it first for us, then we read the module and gave feedback. Then the playtesters were the core who trained local GMs to run it, first by running it for them. So you had to read the whole thing and then check with author to see if you got his intent correctly.

While it wasn't explicitly stated planar binding was used (might have been Gate I guess) this is exactly the kind of consequence a "weaker being that I could effortlessly control and defeat in combat" can do to you and your plans. It doesn't matter how you make an enemy of such a being. It is the fact that the spell explicitly says you might make that kind of enemy as a casual hazard of using it is why most folks inclined to this sort of minionmancy go for Planar Binding

These were "Core" (ie shared across campaign, anybody could play, rather than regional, where you had to travel there in real life to play it), and could only be published if reviewed at the level of the campaign's administration.

Living Greyhawk started with the Canon book published at the start of the campaign but while events that took place there had a permanent impact on the campaign, they never incorporated the campaign results back into canon. Hasbro reserved the rights to though and there was some review at that level too for core modules but the IP is weird, and that's why you can't find copies of these adventures anywhere but on torrent sights (the individual authors *might* have publishing rights maybe? WOTC/Hasbro might maybe? Gygax estate? This stuff is part of why 4e/5e don't use Greyhawk as the iconic party members, deities, setting etc).

[RandomPeasant]

I'm just, like ... don't say it'll never happen.

The question is what it matters if it happens. If you bind up a half-dozen outsiders at a time, and one of them comes back for revenge, it's going to lose that 6v1 fight. If it tries to harass you from the sidelines, how is that meaningfully distinct from the DM simply ramping up difficult in response to optimization in any other context? If we're going to assume that the members of your brute squad will show back up to harass you, why are we also assuming that the DM will keep running fear and poison into heroes' feast?


In another recent thread, for example, the suggestion was that if the outsider didn't like the deal offered, the binder should just fit them with a necrotic tumor. Not exactly a good-aligned proposition.

But equally not a proposition that leaves a lot of room for revenge. How planar binding is used heavily depends on group dynamics, because by simple RAW the result of using it optimally is "you become as powerful as it is possible to describe being as a result of owning a magic item". What happens, broadly speaking, is that there is either a gentleman's agreement not to use it, or its use is broadly allowed, because the type of DM who wants to balance planar binding by having devils harass you is generally doing so because they think the spell is otherwise broken (and eventually ends up a gentleman's agreement), not just in pursuit of verisimilitude.


"There is a campaign" is the antagonists your party fights.

You mean like someone who shows up to kill their primary arcane caster? The party is not stopping each monster to say "hey if we just give you Greg will you let the rest of us go". Your "solution" here is that you think hopefully other people will get bored and kick out the guy who is getting all the spotlight time. That's like saying the "solution" to Pun-Pun is that the party will just not want to play with a guy who instantly kills everything and therefore the build is weaker than acid fog.


"Running with the Baatzu" series, Living Greyhawk, author Chris Chesire.

Not what was asked. Unless you think that is the only example Zanos was thinking of. "X happened once" does not mean "X happens in all cases".

[Mechalich]

The way I see Planar Binding is like this: at worst it functions as Planar Ally for Arcane Casters, and Planar Ally is already a ridiculously powerful spell. At best, Planar Binding is a cost-free version of Planar Ally. I mean, even if things average out for a given caster such that Planar Binding ends up running ~50% of the Planar Ally equivalent cost that's immense.

[Seward]

Ok lets see

Brief digression
=============
Sleep or color spray being more powerful than Obscuring mist. Just hard Nope. Obscuring Mist works just as well on a Pit Fiend as it does on an Orc. No save no SR no immunities help except blindsight. But then you'll see absolutely no spells that require a save to work on my list of overpowered spells. There's a reason for that.

Charm person lasts HOUR per level and can be cast on somebody asleep or unconscious until it "sticks" then you wake them up and your best buddy helps you with all kinds of stuff. It isn't powerful as a combat spell but it is amazingly helpful to gather information. Knock out and kidnap a guard. charm him, leave him alone in a room with his new best friend, and with a minimal effort to come up with a good story "hey buddy, you've had a lot to drink, let me get you home. I'd like to join the guard too. What's it like? " find whatever you need to know. With a little disguise and language skills/spells works almost as well on savage humanoids as on civilized ones. No hit die limit so a L1 Beguiler gets 4 tries to attempt to befriend a level 10 wizard. It is actually the L1 equivalent of planar binding in many ways, except you need to find your own minion NPC instead of relying on Monster Manual entries.
=============



at worst it functions as Planar Ally for Arcane Casters, and Planar Ally is already a ridiculously powerful spell. At best, Planar Binding is a cost-free version of Planar Ally.


It's a good spell for this list, as would be Planar Ally. I don't really dispute the "At its worst" characterization except to me that is "at its best" because I consider "make a powerful extraplanar enemy for no reason other than my convenience" a compelling reason to find some other spell to cast/prepare/take as spell known.

I just don't see that it is head and shoulders above other L6 picks, including mine. Honestly I find Planar Ally more compelling because the cost is up front and high enough that it is a rare pick in actual play, but actually does get used in actual play, rather than theoretical play. It also creates no GM headaches with complex casting, multiple saves, and how annoyed the critter is supposed to be and what consequences should be.

I've already talked about why I have a bias toward spells that transform the battlefield in one action or transform tactics if you have it precast over minionomancy. If you like minionomancy and don't think much of the sorts of buffs I like we'll never agree on what tier things lie in. Just accept that for me, Hero Feast is a no brainer over either of them to me, but I understand why either Planar XXX spell would be on somebody else's list, just as I wouldn't quibble with Charm Person for a L1 pick, as long as you didn't say charm person was a COMBAT game changer.

(charm person can in theory work on an epic humanoid although magical protections would need to be down, so in practice it's usually on minions or people with specific talents/access/spells/etc be set up to stick no matter what the save if you can cast it often enough, can be used when the target is incapacitated and can't notice he keeps beating will saves, waking him up can be done so only the new "best friend" is around etc, but eventually has a consequence when the spell wears off. If you can't see the parallels with Planar Binding here after all this discussion, well, you're unlikely to think enough like me to find much value out of anything else I post either)



You mean like someone who shows up to kill their primary arcane caster?

Probably a result of playing 2 decades of Superhero games makes me have context for what this is like that you may lack.

In Champions, there is a disadvantage called a "Hunted", where no matter what else is going on, if that Hero is present there is a chance his nemesis or agents of said nemesis will show up in ADDITION to whatever else is going on.

So the Superteam is fighting off the Skrull invasion and your Sorcerer Supreme is doing his job helping the team defeat them when suddenly the Wild Hunt shows up heads for the Sorcerer Supreme, because he felt that binding Titania was a good idea last year. The team saves the Sorcerer Supreme from the Wild Hunt and the Skrulls run wild, destroying New York while you were busy. Or maybe they let the Wild Hunt take the Sorcerer Supreme, because saving New York is more important. Worse, what if when the Hunt charges toward Sorcerer Supreme, Titania also appears and starts aiding the other heroes saying "I'll help you save the world if you don't interfere with my Hunt. Interfere and I'll help the Scrulls burn this city back to wilderness". Hero team might settle for a nice tasteful funeral celebration for Sorcerer Supreme after saving New York and then the world. Depending on the team they might even offer Titania the spot on the team Sorcerer Supreme used to fill.

And it doesn't happen just once. Say you go with "save Sorcerer Supreme from his hunted" and accept the price paid to do it. Next time you're fighting Hot Topic, a fire themed group of supervillains and they're about twice as powerful as usual because Titania's hunted came up again and she blessed them all before they went into battle. Instead of containing the threat pretty easily, an entire residential apartment complex burns, and no you didn't save everybody.

People aren't allowed on teams if they have powerful hunteds, or at best are limited to just one with infrequent activation. Sometimes the whole team will take the same hunted (think X-men and the Govt Mutant Hunters who might show up in any adventure to complicate things. You have a choice to make the hunted more powerful than you, just as you can use planar binding to control creatures in theory more powerful than you (although in practice, usually not, due to hit die limits)

It can get pretty bad. There was a supervillian team that canonically had so many hunteds and so much unluck that they developed really really effective agents so they'd go out and rob a bank with the costumed bad guys as a distraction, half the world would show up, the agents would do the actual job, and then show up in disguise later to "take them to jail" five minutes before the real Stronghold team appeared.

A hunted dynamic with the capabilities of most D&D outsiders would be a massive PITA to a typical adventuring party, and this is what you invite. It helps when every time this happens it is like "Ignore the rest, Kill the Wizard!" from the surprising new set of enemies, or when the random ogre tribe guarding your objective suddenly has specialized equipment and tactics designed to identify and focus fire on the wizard, instead of anything else it can be doing (that's just information going to those ogres, and maybe a bribe or some such).

[Dimers]

The question is what it matters if it happens. If you bind up a half-dozen outsiders at a time, and one of them comes back for revenge, it's going to lose that 6v1 fight.

Sigh. And we're back to the difficulty of finding a good-aligned binder in practice instead of theory. You're commanding your current batch of angels to pause the holy crusade that you supposedly hired them for, to do battle against an angel who feels you've wronged her ... instead of trying to remedy that perceived injustice and redeem yourself in the eyes of the forces of heaven you've offended, you throw more bodies at the immediate problem. Yeah, you win the fight, great; but you lose another dollop of Goodness. How do you think that makes you look in the eyes of your bound angels? Does it make them proud to be fighting at your side, or does it make them more likely to oppose you in the future themselves? How does someone who necessarily applies force against good creatures stay good himself? (Silly answer: by RAW, planar binding an angel is a Good act.)

To address your objection/question: What it matters is that making enemies by forcing creatures to do one character's bidding -- however those enemies are dealt with -- pivots the game even more toward the binder's pursuit of power-without-meaningful-consequences and away from the party's goals and aims. If we're talking about a solo game or the rest of the party lack their own ambitions, and the DM is okay with a change of focus for the campaign, that's fine. But in all likelihood there's a player or DM who doesn't want the story to be about the binder's increasingly invincible army -- the mechanics and roleplay of adding to it, the effort put into negating consequences, the roleplay shifting focus toward a horde of NPCs and away from the players, the way planar binding inevitably diminishes other players' relative worth, and quite possibly the moral decline of the binder as power corrupts him. What matters isn't some in-game action, but rather the effect it has on real people trying to enjoy themselves.


What happens, broadly speaking, is that there is either a gentleman's agreement not to use it, or its use is broadly allowed ...

Obviously true, yes. Following that truth, if there's an agreement not to use it, it does nothing and thereby lacks effective power in the game. And if it's broadly allowed without meaningful restrictions, drawbacks or consequences ... well, maybe I just lack imagination, but I can't see a way for that to be fun any more. What's the point of the game with infinite wishes and infinite armies? Once one wins D&D, isn't the game over? If a game stops being worth playing, there's no game left in which to measure/define the spell's power. Attempting to do so returns an error.

There could be a middle ground where it does get used, but in a way that actually costs the binder meaningful resources and doesn't provide anything free, following the pattern of the vast majority of D&D elements. Within that middle ground, given the spell's versatility and very long duration, it could easily be called "overpowered for its level", answering Thurbane's question. Unfortunately, that's just not RAW, and RAW is the common ground for discussion. The middle ground can't exist here on the forum no matter how many of us would play that way in real games.

[Troacctid]

planar binding is just like employing hirelings in that when you hire a 1st level Warrior they come with the ability to summon three additional 1st level Warriors.

Hmm, perhaps planar binding is not like that at all.
You do know you can get actual adventurers as hirelings, including spellcasters? And war trolls and such? And even level 1 warrior hirelings can still use items and benefit from whatever force multiplier buffs you're able to grant, if those are the only mercenaries you can find.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Lots of the obvious has already been said, but here are my 2 cents added to the pile:

I consider Battlemagic Perception slightly OP. It's incredibly amazing if you know you're going up against spellcasters, and its ability to detect the casting of spells is just the icing on the cake. It's even got a decently long duration, which makes the spell-detection ability sort of amazing in lots of intrigue/stealth adventures. It's good for the same reasons Ring of Spell-Battle is good, except that it's a lot cheaper and doesn't take a ring slot.

Similarly, I'd consider Celerity OP. I don't think I need to explain why.

I also think nobody mentioned Astral Projection. IMO that spell is absurd even for a 9th-level spell.

I don't ban them in my games because if you're allowing Tier 1 casters you're probably at that sort of power-level already, but in low-powered games I wouldn't let the Rogue/Chameleon take them or whatever.

[Malphegor]

On the planar binding revenge issue, that’s why you bargain with them in roleplay imo. If they agree to serve then they have no reason to seek you out independently.

Generally, find entities that would be sympathetic to your goals, and apologise for the inconvenience and even if the spell doesn’t offer it, be generous and offer them payment for their time.

Magic is 90% spells and 10% learning how to deal with cosmic entities. You can’t just huck the most powerful spells and expect to survive forever, you need to know how to bend people to your will… And there’s a spell for that too.

[Gnaeus]

.
============

It's a good spell for this list, as would be Planar Ally. I don't really dispute the "At its worst" characterization except to me that is "at its best" because I consider "make a powerful extraplanar enemy for no reason other than my convenience" a compelling reason to find some other spell to cast/prepare/take as spell known.

I just don't see that it is head and shoulders above other L6 picks, including mine. Honestly I find Planar Ally more compelling because the cost is up front and high enough that it is a rare pick in actual play, but actually does get used in actual play, rather than theoretical play. It also creates no GM headaches with complex casting, multiple saves, and how annoyed the critter is supposed to be and what consequences should be.


Planar ally should certainly be on the op list. Its essentially an "I summon another fighter who is usually better and vastly cheaper than the party fighter, and repeat until my fighter needs are met, for pretty much an entire dungeon" This is why in all the fighter versus cleric debates the fighter pretty much always loses the numbers war once it comes online. But for planar binding, it would absolutely be OP. With planar binding, the main reason planar ally isn't OP is that OP doesn't live in a vacuum and it is weaker than PB, therefore arguably not "over" powered, although vastly op compared with what a fighter or monk gets at that or any other level.

PB used with costs is still better than PA because PA is DMs choice. With a bunch of deities basically spelling out their preferences. If you cast it you get a Hound archon. If you cast it again you get a Hound archon. The DM even has the option of screwing you and giving something worthless. But if you get a decent option, it's still one option.

Planar binding, if you want to summon a bard, an offensive caster and a tank, you can. All in core. Need 3 fighters for a front line? Great! Need an invisible flying scout? Same spell. Need a party buffer? Same spell. Need 30 SoLs? Same spell. Need to cast one specific spell not in your book? PB has a long list. Heck, you need to pull in a caster with CLW to craft a cure stick for the party but have no divine casters because you are stuck in nomagicmartuniverse? PB has a tremendous list of spells it will duplicate.

And it can even be used to your diplomatic advantage. There are lots of currencies you can use to make outsiders happy. I had a character once who would kill a commoner and extract their souls daily, then summon a devil once a week or so and just give it a bunch of souls in exchange for good relations. He was expecting an apocalypse and wanted to have some safe harbors, and he had a huge contract, but he was basically giving away something for nothing so why wouldn't it work? It only creates enemies if you want it to.

There are literally outsider merchants. You can literally summon outsiders and say "hey, what magic weapons do you have in stock? And what would you give me as trade in for this pile of loot? We can work out the details now and if we can reach an agreement just plane shift by tomorrow for the sale!

But I do agree with Random that enemies aren't necessarily a bad thing. Getting to steer your fights and then prepare for the fights you just picked is so beneficial lots of Players put enemies in their backstory for free and don't get anything out of it.

Oh, and mercenaries. Yes, parties can hire mercenaries. IME mercenaries are worse than binds for a bunch of reasons. You generally can't pick exactly what you want. They will commonly refuse to take on the suicide missions preferred by adventurers because they are there to get paid. They are way more likely to have ulterior motives than the summoned outsider, who can at least be trusted to act in keeping with their alignment. My first mercenary who betrays the party to take their stuff was B1 Keep on the Borderlands. That devil will at least keep the letter of his bargain.

[Seward]

Oh, and mercenaries. Yes, parties can hire mercenaries. IME mercenaries are worse than binds for a bunch of reasons.


Mercenaries under their usual restrictions = Planar Ally. They have a cost, they do what they do, they have the composition they have. Not cheap but sometimes useful.

Mercenaries where you charm the leadership and use various other spells to keep morale up among the rank and file when they are ordered to do something suicidal = Planar Binding. They lack a caster? Go dominate the town wizard and tell him to join, then tell your best buddy the Merc Captain (charmed) to accept him as a member.


Minionomancy is minionomancy. Sometimes it has limits, but is reasonably safe if at a normal cost (like the Black Onyx create undead spells). Sometimes it is much much more powerful but has risks (like using control undead and something that creates spawn to create an exponentially growing army).

The second category has been hemmed in as D&D has gone through versions since AD&D (Planar Binding is the direct descendant of spells like Cacodaemon). 4e tried to eliminate any spells like that, I doubt they entirely succeeded since there were that ritual category of spells, but I never did anything with 4e past about level 5 in real play, and am not really interested in minionomancy and I didn't favor the ritual mechanic so if it is there I didn't see it. Dunno about 5e. Hasbro is dead to me after killing my favorite campaign for an edition they abandoned a few years later.



I consider Battlemagic Perception slightly OP. It's incredibly amazing if you know you're going up against spellcasters, and its ability to detect the casting of spells is just the icing on the cake. It's even got a decently long duration, which makes the spell-detection ability sort of amazing in lots of intrigue/stealth adventures. It's good for the same reasons Ring of Spell-Battle is good, except that it's a lot cheaper and doesn't take a ring slot.

Similarly, I'd consider Celerity OP. I don't think I need to explain why.

I also think nobody mentioned Astral Projection. IMO that spell is absurd even for a 9th-level spell.


I've never seen anybody use Battlemagic perception. It looked interesting but my reaction to it was "or I could just take spellcraft". Have you used it in real play? Can you give an example of the sort of situation it breaks wide open? I'm curious because I was a rare person in my circle who took Arcane Sight in a campaign where permanency was banned, on a sorcerer, as her first L3 spell. I found casual magic detection pretty useful, and the ability to notice that the washerwoman had L7 spell capability broke a few plots over the years. It worked well enough that I went with Analyze Dwoemer as her second L6 spell. (I used wall of force, I needed Disintegrate first).

Yes, Celerity is really really good. In that category also is Ruin Delver's Fortune, but celerity is better because you can protect yourself or others with any spell you can cast (like, I dunno, obscuring mist or solid fog or sleet storm or wall of force or similar spells that "just work"). The daze effect means you do lose action economy (you are trading an immediate standard now for a std/move/swift next round), but timing is everything when the encounter goes bad.

Astral Projection - some of what it does can be done with plane shift, if you have an astral tuning fork. My real issue with it though is the separation of the body from the spirit. This may be a holdover from 1st edition, but the spell just invites some enemy (or astral predator/hazard like Githyanki) to go "hm, a silver cord. Lets cut it". As written in 3.x if you avoid that hazard, what it reminds me of is "Phantom Steeds for Planar Travel". You can travel to other planes without needing a tuning fork, similar to how Phantom Steed gets you to an unknown location so you can teleport or transport via plants or whatever in future. The risk though is that the caster is the weak link. Lose the cord or just get focus fired/killed and your companions are stranded. Of course if you guys are doing L9 spells, maybe your divine caster just true rezzes you, and your party continues on without mishap after you recast the spell. But my take on this spell is it has specific drawbacks in addition to its flexibility that cancel out (similar to Gate, also quite powerful and can be used for planar transport). So while powerful, normally powerful for L9 magic. The main reason to use Astral Travel over Gate for direct transport is that Astral Travel will work even if there is a deity on the plane hostile to you personally. Which could be important if you are heading out to gank Lolth on her home dimension or similar.

[RandomPeasant]

Fun fact, for anyone who's still on the fence: you get heroes' feast from planar binding. A ghaele is 10 HD (meaning you can bind it with planar binding no questions asked), Good aligned (meaning non vengeance on most parties), and casts as a 14th level Cleric (meaning it can just cast heroes' feast for you). So can we be done here now?


The way I see Planar Binding is like this: at worst it functions as Planar Ally for Arcane Casters, and Planar Ally is already a ridiculously powerful spell. At best, Planar Binding is a cost-free version of Planar Ally. I mean, even if things average out for a given caster such that Planar Binding ends up running ~50% of the Planar Ally equivalent cost that's immense.

planar binding not requiring gold payment also means you can provide in-kind payment to creatures. It's pretty easy to imagine how a Wizard (who can cast many different spells a limited number of times per day) and various outsiders or elementals (who can typically cast a small number of different spells at-will) could engage in mutually beneficial trade without the Wizard needing to spend money or engage in coercion. If, for instance, you need some continual flames, rather than casting the spell yourself and spending the money on the material component, you could simply cast planar binding, summon a Lantern Archon, and just cast spells that fulfill whatever desires it is that Lantern Archons have. You can even use multiple planar bindings to trade services between creatures with yourself as an intermediary, or pay creatures by binding them and then having them provide you the "service" of "do whatever it is you'd like to do on the Prime but can't because you have no way of getting here". That last is perhaps unwise if you're binding creatures hostile to you, but I'm sure angels are perfectly happy to trade good deeds of your choice for good deeds of their choice.


Obscuring Mist works just as well on a Pit Fiend as it does on an Orc.

Which I care deeply about, because I frequently find myself confronting Pit Fiends with only my 1st level spells remaining. The idea that staying good for longer makes up for being vastly less powerful when it is the top-level offensive spell you care about is just unsupported. sleep wins a fight when it is the level of spell you care about casting. obscuring mist merely disadvantages certain types of enemies.


No hit die limit so a L1 Beguiler gets 4 tries to attempt to befriend a level 10 wizard. It is actually the L1 equivalent of planar binding in many ways, except you need to find your own minion NPC instead of relying on Monster Manual entries.

And it lasts 1 hour/level instead of multiple days. The spell you are thinking of, that is actually comparable, is charm monster, which has a day/level duration. That's totally great, but not great enough to make it over polymorph at the same level (though it's close, since your DM can't just shut it out by throwing monsters at you).


I don't really dispute the "At its worst" characterization except to me that is "at its best" because I consider "make a powerful extraplanar enemy for no reason other than my convenience" a compelling reason to find some other spell to cast/prepare/take as spell known.

Except that, again, you are handwaving that into happening, and then handwaving it again into having consequences, and then handwaving those consequences into causing the player to get kicked from the party. In the absolute worst case, you can just pay the things you summon with planar binding, except that unlike planar ally, monetary payment isn't required.


In Champions, there is a disadvantage called a "Hunted", where no matter what else is going on, if that Hero is present there is a chance his nemesis or agents of said nemesis will show up in ADDITION to whatever else is going on.

And you'll note that this is not what planar binding does. It does not say "and by the way, the DM gets to break the CR system to hunt you". You're handwaving that into existence on the basis of evidence that is at this point coming from other games.


Sigh. And we're back to the difficulty of finding a good-aligned binder in practice instead of theory. You're commanding your current batch of angels to pause the holy crusade that you supposedly hired them for, to do battle against an angel who feels you've wronged her

And why does that angel think you wronged here? You paid her to do a thing she agreed with. Her hunting you is a handwave that turns "maybe the creature will seek revenge" to "automatically effective revenge happens".


What it matters is that making enemies by forcing creatures to do one character's bidding -- however those enemies are dealt with -- pivots the game even more toward the binder's pursuit of power-without-meaningful-consequences and away from the party's goals and aims.

You'll note that I've said as much. I agree that it will eventually get annoying to deal with the DM throwing a stream of jaded minions at you. But that's a reason planar binding is more of a problem, not less of one. If a spell warps the campaign around it like a black hole, that's a broken spell. And again, if we're applying that standard to heroes' feast, you'll just never encounter the things it makes you immune to and it's temp HP for a 6th level spell slot.


You do know you can get actual adventurers as hirelings, including spellcasters?

"planar binding isn't broken because you can just hire powerful spellcasters with minionmancy abilities such as planar binding" is certainly a take. I suppose we can similarly argue that polymorph isn't a problem because you can just hire a War Troll who happens to have whatever class levels your beatstick does.

[Seward]

Gahele may be a 14th level cleric but doesn't routinely prep Hero's feast according to the MM entry.

This means it has to ask its patron deity for the spell after waiting at least 8 hours, another hour to prep spells, an additional hour to cast spells and of course its deity is excited to grant a spell for its servant who isn't doing its job because it is bound to service by some random mortal.

Yeah, you can do it, it would probably work. I might even try this route if I couldn't get it any other way and knew I was entering a threat environment where I risked one of those fear/poisonfest encounters. But Hero Feast is a spell you want to cast every single day, maybe twice a day if you can manage it. Planar Binding isn't a practical way to get that outcome. I do however concede it could be used if you had no other way and might even be worth it the difficulty.

[Troacctid]

Fun fact, for anyone who's still on the fence: you get heroes' feast from planar binding. A ghaele is 10 HD (meaning you can bind it with planar binding no questions asked), Good aligned (meaning non vengeance on most parties), and casts as a 14th level Cleric (meaning it can just cast heroes' feast for you). So can we be done here now?
You can also get heroes' feast from a hireling. It's a spellcasting service. Probably cheaper and faster that way, too.

[RandomPeasant]

Gahele may be a 14th level cleric but doesn't routinely prep Hero's feast according to the MM entry.

You're not binding something for one day. You're binding it for multiple days, and you can just have it prepare heroes' feast on the days you plan on adventuring. I certainly agree that planar binding is worse if you cast it day-of, but there's absolutely no reason to do that.


of course its deity is excited to grant a spell for its servant who isn't doing its job because it is bound to service by some random mortal.

What exactly are we meant to infer here. The gods are going to veto you getting heroes' feast if you get it the wrong way? That we've graduated "planar binding makes your minions seek revenge automatically" to "if you planar binding a creature that gets Cleric casting you enrage the gods themselves"?


You can also get heroes' feast from a hireling. It's a spellcasting service. Probably cheaper and faster that way, too.

Hirelings pay you to have them cast heroes' feast for them?

[Seward]

Hirelings pay you to have them cast heroes' feast for them?

If you can find a temple willing to cast Hero's Feast, it costs 660gp for an 11th level caster. Granted this means you need to teleport or some such to wherever you want to act afterwards, but it is more economical than getting it via Planar Ally (which is 10k for a long term task), although I of course admit that hiring an actual L14 cleric for a few days including combat duty will likely be in a similar price range, if you could do it at all, especially one with the other stuff your outsider can just do. (such a cleric would have more than 65 hitpoints, couldn't be dismissed trivvially/banished pretty easily or obliterated by a L14 "holy word" type spell so you do get some value for the difficulty of just hiring a proper cleric).

But yes, Planar binding scores high on convenience because it forces an interaction with just the skillset you need. It's not free no matter how you use it, with a short term or long term cost, but that's a darn handy ability.

More handy than just routinely being immune to fear and poison (and hunger/thirst) for an entire party? Well, clearly you think so. For me, I like stuff that helps every day, no matter what the day may bring, or that can turn the tide of the battle in a single standard action, no matter how badly you miscalculated what the day may bring. That's my bias, and hence my list is what it is.

[Wonton64]

Never would I have guessed that this thread would devolve into a multi-page argument on whether conscripting any of hundreds of powerful outsiders into your service or a really good meal represented a more OP spell.

[Seward]

Never would I have guessed that this thread would devolve into a multi-page argument on whether conscripting any of hundreds of powerful outsiders into your service or a really good meal represented a more OP spell.

We are very talented on this forum. Some of us are foodies, so we have strong opinions I guess :)

[Kalkra]

We are very talented on this forum. Some of us are foodies, so we have strong opinions I guess :)

Any reasonable GM requires a complete menu before you can cast the spell. Ideally the meal should have at least five courses and be thematically linked to the current adventure. And if you're not roleplaying that hour-long meal, you're not doing it right.

[bekeleven]

Any reasonable GM requires a complete menu before you can cast the spell. Ideally the meal should have at least five courses and be thematically linked to the current adventure. And if you're not roleplaying that hour-long meal, you're not doing it right.

Feed your DM a five course meal and he might increase the morale bonus.

[Seward]

Feed your DM a five course meal and he might increase the morale bonus.

In college I ran a Traveler game. There was an explicit rule that "offerings to the space god" would help if you were trying to do something entertaining but unlikely to succeed. The quality of the snacks/drinks/etc would affect the hidden bonus. (this is because when I played Traveller in high school my GM had a similar policy...)

[rel]

Force cage is pretty great, it's target dependant of course, but it's a no save, no SR, offensive spell that lasts 2 hours/level, so when it does work you just win.
The barred cage version is 20x20x20, that's enough for gargantuan creatures, so not that limiting. The widnowless cell is smaller, but also doesn't let you just drop any ongoing damage effect on the area and wait for trapped enemy to die.

There's plenty of high CR creatures that can neither teleport nor disintegrate.

This.
there are a lot of monsters with no answer to being put in a force cage.

You can encounter epic level opponents that can be trivially defeated by dropping a forcecage and telling the party archer to go to town.


I thought of another high level option: simulacrum

[InvisibleBison]

This.
there are a lot of monsters with no answer to being put in a force cage.

You can encounter epic level opponents that can be trivially defeated by dropping a forcecage and telling the party archer to go to town.

The holes in a barred forcecage are half an inch wide. I'm skeptical that arrows could fit through them.

[Tzardok]

This.
there are a lot of monsters with no answer to being put in a force cage.

You can encounter epic level opponents that can be trivially defeated by dropping a forcecage and telling the party archer to go to town.


If your epic muscle monster isn't strong enough to break a force cage by flexing hard enough, is it even epic?

[Metastachydium]

The holes in a barred forcecage are half an inch wide. I'm skeptical that arrows could fit through them.

How about arrows fired from a diminutive bow wielded by a kobold (Slight Build actually doing something!) scout under the effect of Reduce Person?

[Gnaeus]

But yes, Planar binding scores high on convenience because it forces an interaction with just the skillset you need. It's not free no matter how you use it, with a short term or long term cost, but that's a darn handy ability..

Not true.

I bind a mercane to have a 2 minute chat about goods and services he offers: free. Heck, if I do it often enough I may get a discount.

I bind an evil outsider and pay in currency not valuable to me, like souls or virgins: free

I bind some stupid mook without planar travel and Cha check him to working for free: free

I bind literally anything to do a service it enjoys and Cha check him into doing it for free (like if I'm attacking a town or need a distraction and bind a demon to go on a murder spree, or I'm off to save the world but I bind an angel to protect an orphanage.

Free use of planar binding shirt and long term is the most common use. Paying short or long term is the unusal situation.

Compare with the long term cost of charmed or dominated mercenaries. One dispel magic and they are on the other side. In the middle of the battle. "Enemy casts dispel and our mercs attack us" is way, way worse than "creatures you treat badly may seek revenge, if you care by that point". And to the degree that it isn't, those aren't even mercenaries, they are dominated or charmed minions. You cann discuss how charm or dominate are op. But I have virtually never heard of a planar binding use more likely to cause problems than what you seem to consider standard practice for hireling recruitment. Charming the town wizard to go with you on adventures is a way worse plan than calling outsiders, long and short term.

[Thurbane]

Big thanks to everyone still posting suggestions, and not just arguing the same 1 or 2 spells back and forth for 4 pages. :smallsmile:

[RandomPeasant]

If you can find a temple willing to cast Hero's Feast, it costs 660gp for an 11th level caster.

Yes and if you have your pet Ghaele cast heroes' feast it is free.


I like stuff that helps every day, no matter what the day may bring

You mean like having an army of pet demons?


or that can turn the tide of the battle in a single standard action

Oh, look, it's that thing color spray does.


You can encounter epic level opponents that can be trivially defeated by dropping a forcecage and telling the party archer to go to town.

You can encounter epic level opponents that can be trivially defeated by a 6th level Warlock with fell flight. It's more a problem with bruiser monsters than forcecage.


I bind an evil outsider and pay in currency not valuable to me, like souls or virgins: free

Or you just pay it by casting spells that you will get back tomorrow. We're talking about going out and paying for heroes' feast, but simultaneously pretending it's impossible for someone who gets an 11th level Wizard's worth of spells every day just for waking up to buy stuff with anything other than money. It's just kind of bizarre.

[vasilidor]

I thought the counter to force cage was making the monster too big?
Does it not have a size limit in 3.5?

[Venger]

It does. 10 feet for the solid version, 20 for barred version, which does explicitly allow arrows through albeit granting the prisoner cover.

[Seward]

Any reasonable GM requires a complete menu before you can cast the spell. Ideally the meal should have at least five courses and be thematically linked to the current adventure.

You snark, but actually I've seen a lot of clerics casting the spell who have given a lot of thought to what is in the feast, and tell the other party members what they're eating (again, organized play, random parties with often strangers ate the table who have never seen your character, so this sort of thing helps make it all more "real" to everybody involved).

Hero Feast of Procan(chaotic god of sea and storms)? Lots of seafood, veggies are mostly seaweed based, it's kind of salty and there is no rhyme or reason to how the food is organized. Grab what you like, there will be enough stuff each person enjoys to suit them. It's going to be different with each new group of people, or even if one gets tired of what they enjoyed last time.

Hero Feast of Pholtus (law as in legal, heavens, inflexibility)? Very very healthy food. Kind of bland but not tasteless. Always the same. Think something like oatmeal with dried fruit to flavor it, tea, a bit of mutton cooked medium-well (the Pale was kinda like lowland Scotland in climate, or Maine), and portioned to your body weight, activity and metabolism to avoid gaining or losing weight.

Hero Feast of Pelor (Sun god) Things that are ripened by the sun - grains, fruits, veggies, plus meat from animals that eat grass, wine or beer (or grape juice/apple juice or cider). Possibly a few exotic tropical items mixed in, but since Pelor was a god of a people that mostly settled temperate lands just a few, the way an Orange might make it to the table of the King of France.

You get the idea. People had fun with it. Most gods were assumed not to be jerks about it and respected dietary restrictions of intended targets, so the Anthropomorphic Sheep is not going to have to endure a meal where everybody is eating their cousins.

[Thunder999]

I thought the counter to force cage was making the monster too big?
Does it not have a size limit in 3.5?

It does, but the barred version is 20x20x20, so fits anything but colossal creatures in it, colossal is not exactly the most common size category (makes it really hard to fit indoors after all).

[Dimers]

Stone sphere isn't Conjuration so it doesn't need to come into existence on the ground. If you cast it 10' above someone's head, it deals 53d6 falling damage (assuming density like granite, 2.6 g/cm3), plus a smidgen for the spell's actual text. Add a bit more if you can make it fall farther. Pretty good for a level 4 spell with no optimization. :smallsmile:

Sorry, I don't have any more real suggestions for this thread. Just ran across that and wanted to share it.

[pabelfly]

So I decided to tally up the recommended spells in this thread, which I think makes for a pretty good list:

0th Level
3 – Prestidigitation
1 – Detect Magic
1 – Ghost Sound
1 – Resistance

1st Level
3 – Entangle
3 – Grease
3 – Nerveskitter
3 – Silent Image
1 – Benign Transposition
1 – Colour Spray
1 – Conjure Ice Beast I
1 – Comprehend Languages
1 – Conviction
1 – Cure Light Wounds
1 – Disguise Self
1 – Ice Slick
1 – Impending Stones
1 – Lesser Vigor
1 – Obscuring Mist\
1 – Power Word Pain
1 – Protection from Evil
1 – Protection from Good
1 – Ray of Resurgence
1 – Shield of Faith
1 – Summon Marked Homunculus
1 – Unseen Servant
1 – Wall of Smoke

2nd Level
5 – Alter Self
3 – Glitterdust
2 – Binding Spittle
2 – Invisibility
2 – Kelpstrand
2 – Luminous Armor
2 – Ray of Stupidity
2 – Tyche’s Touch
2 – Wings of Cover
1 – Benediction
1 – Command Undead
1 – Create Magic Tattoo
1 – Dark Way
1 – Detect Thoughts
1 – Elemental Dart
1 – Guidance of the Avatar
1 – Heroics
1 – Lesser Celerity
1 – Mirror Image
1 – Resistance Energy
1 – Rope Trick
1 – Silence
1 – Web
1 – Whispercast
1 – Wraithstrike

3rd Level
3 – Shivering Touch
2 – Animate Dead
2 – Disobedience
2 – Glibness
2 – Haste
2 – Primal Instinct
1 – Anyspell
1 – Battlemagic Perception
1 – Create Lantern Archon
1 – Earthen Shield
1 – Flame Sands
1 – Fly
1 – Heart of Water
1 – Heroism
1 – Major Image
1 – Mass Conviction
1 – Mass Resist Energy
1 – Phantom Steed
1 – Protection from Energy
1 – Sticks and Stones
1 – Stinking Cloud
1 – Venomfire

4th Level
5 – Polymorph
3 – Celerity
2 – Black Tentacles
2 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Solid Fog
2 – Wall of Salt
1 – Consumptive Field
1 – Death Ward
1 – Dimension Door
1 – Divine Power
1 – Enhance Wildshape
1 – Freedom of Movement
1 – Greater Invisibility
1 – Heart of the Earth
1 – Minor Creation
1 – Orb of Fire
1 – Orb of Acid
1 – Orb of Cold
1 – Orb of Force
1 – Scrying
1 – Shadow Conjuration
1 – Surge of Fortune
1 – Voice of the Dragon
1 – Wall of Sand (Spell Compendium)
1 – Wings of Flurry

5th Level
2 – Teleport
1 – Arcane Fusion
1 – Darkbolt from Darkness
1 – Dominate Person
1 – Draconic Polymorph
1 – Fabricate
1 – Magic Jar
1 – Persistent Image
1 – Shadow Evocation
1 – Stone Sphere
1 – Storm Touch
1 – True Seeing
1 – Wall of Thorns

6th Level
3 – Contingency
3 – Heroes’ Feast
3 – Planar Binding
2 – Heal
1 – Anyspell
1 – Disintegrate
1 – Energy Immunity
1 – Freezing Glance
1 – Permanent Image
1 – Valiant Steed

7th Level
3 – Limited Wish
2 – Blasphemy
2 – Forcecage
2 – Simulacrum
1 – Amber Sarcophagus
1 – Avasculate
1 – Body of War
1 – Control Weather
1 – Empyreal Ecstasy
1 – Glass Strike
1 – Greater Consumptive Field
1 – Greater Shadow Conjuration
1 – Magnificent Mansion
1 – Scalding Touch
1 – Spell Turning
1 – Unicorn Heart
1 – Vile Rebellion

8th Level
4 – Polymorph Any Object
3 – Mind Blank
1 – Frostfell
1 – Greater Celerity
1 – Greater Planar Ally
1 – Greater Shadow Evocation
1 – Mass Death Ward
1 – Mass Dominate Person
1 – Maze
1 – Moment of Prescience
1 – Mystic Shield
1 – Simulacrum
1 – Shun the Dark Chaos
1 – Trap the Soul

9th Level
5 – Shapechange
3 – Gate
2 – Wish
1 – Astral Projection
1 – Chain Contingency
1 – Disjunction
1 – Dominate Monster
1 – Effulgent Epuration
1 – Foresight
1 – Ice Assassin
1 – Mindrape
1 – Miracle
1 – Shades
1 – Teleport Through Time
1 – Timestop

I'll keep on adding to the list as the thread progresses, because I think this information is useful.

[Seward]

Wow the polymorph tree is broken :)

Not terribly surprising.

I think we had a couple votes for Prestidigitation (mine and somebody else's)

[pabelfly]

Wow the polymorph tree is broken :)

Not terribly surprising.

I think we had a couple votes for Prestidigitation (mine and somebody else's)

I honestly thought that people were joking about Prestidigitation. Tone doesn't really convey on the internet. There were like three votes for it, I'll add it in

[bekeleven]

Few effects from 0-level spells are that mechanically impressive, whereas prestidigitation is quite flavorfully impressive. It's also a spell you like about equally at levels 1 and 20, which is a trip; Some spells (like my first-level pick, Nerveskitter) I like more for its high-level utility. A first-level wizard isn't preparing it. But wizards of every level are fine spending a cantrip to "Make food warm and delicious, impress the locals, set up a game, have fun."

Mechanically, the best 0-level spells are stuff like create water, purify food and drink, detect magic, and read magic: All things that don't give numbers, but give abilities. I guess acid splash can be a metamagic vehicle sometimes but by and large you don't want to be making rolls with cantrips. The one I'm most likely to use in combat is Cure Minor Wounds, because it has the text "stabilize target dying creature."

[pabelfly]

I honestly thought that people were joking about Prestidigitation. Tone doesn't really convey on the internet. There were like three votes for it, I'll add it in

You can forgive my misinterpretation when I had two different posters say that Prestidigitation was the most OP Spell of the entire game.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can forgive my misinterpretation when I had two different posters say that Prestidigitation was the most OP Spell of the entire game.

The spell may not have a big mechanical impact but the sheer versatility is great if you're creative. Or just don't want to walk through town with bloodstains on your clothes.

[Seward]

You can forgive my misinterpretation when I had two different posters say that Prestidigitation was the most OP Spell of the entire game.

Actually I think you should give Prestidigitation 2 votes. My vote for a cantrip was Create Water, with prestidigitation being a runner-up.

But Create Water should be on there (with at least one vote, mine) and Prestidigitation I think had 2 votes (without going back and checking)

I think most of us entered "most OP spell for a given spell level", because otherwise the list is a lot less fun with "shapeshift" being most of the entries.

[Troacctid]

I didn't think this was a voting thing. I was trying to only mention spells that hadn't been brought up yet.

[loky1109]

I honestly thought that people were joking about Prestidigitation. Tone doesn't really convey on the internet. There were like three votes for it, I'll add it in

I'm completely serious about it.

For example:

Gather: You neatly collect numerous objects. The objects you gather can be no larger than Fine size, no two items can be more than 10 feet apart, and their total weight cannot exceed 1 pound. You can place the gathered objects into a container you touch, or you can form a stack or pile that you touch.
You can gather selectively; for instance, you can pick up just the coins from an area.
I totally don't need Sleight of Hand skill to Pick some Pockets if I'm wizard with 0-level spell. Spell that works 1 hour!

[InvisibleBison]

I'm completely serious about it.

For example:

I totally don't need Sleight of Hand skill to Pick some Pockets if I'm wizard with 0-level spell. Spell that works 1 hour!

A key part of picking pockets is the target not noticing that their pocket is being picked. I see no reason to think that would happen if you used this feature to move coins out of someone's purse.

[Tzardok]

I see no reason to be able to move coins from a purse without having either line of sight or line of effect to the coins. This isn't Harry Potter's Accio, after all.

[Troacctid]

Okay pabelfly, I'm gonna go through and upvote or downvote a bunch of these I haven't commented on already, just to set the record straight.

So I decided to tally up the recommended spells in this thread, which I think makes for a pretty good list:

0th Level
3 – Prestidigitation 👎
1 – Detect Magic 👍
1 – Ghost Sound
1 – Resistance👎

1st Level
3 – Entangle 👎
3 – Grease👎
3 – Nerveskitter👍
3 – Silent Image👎
1 – Benign Transposition👍
1 – Colour Spray👍
1 – Conjure Ice Beast I👍
1 – Comprehend Languages👎
1 – Conviction👍
1 – Cure Light Wounds👎
1 – Disguise Self👎
1 – Ice Slick👎
1 – Impending Stones👎
1 – Lesser Vigor👍
1 – Obscuring Mist\👎
1 – Power Word Pain
1 – Protection from Evil👎
1 – Protection from Good👎
1 – Ray of Resurgence
1 – Shield of Faith👎
1 – Summon Marked Homunculus
1 – Unseen Servant👎
1 – Wall of Smoke👎

2nd Level
5 – Alter Self👍
3 – Glitterdust👍
2 – Binding Spittle
2 – Invisibility👎
2 – Kelpstrand
2 – Luminous Armor👍
2 – Ray of Stupidity
2 – Tyche’s Touch👎
2 – Wings of Cover
1 – Benediction
1 – Command Undead
1 – Create Magic Tattoo
1 – Dark Way👎
1 – Detect Thoughts👎
1 – Elemental Dart
1 – Guidance of the Avatar👍
1 – Heroics👎
1 – Lesser Celerity👎
1 – Mirror Image👎
1 – Resistance Energy👎
1 – Rope Trick
1 – Silence👎
1 – Web👍
1 – Whispercast
1 – Wraithstrike

3rd Level
3 – Shivering Touch👎
2 – Animate Dead👍
2 – Disobedience👎
2 – Glibness👍
2 – Haste👎
2 – Primal Instinct
1 – Anyspell👎
1 – Battlemagic Perception👎
1 – Create Lantern Archon👎
1 – Earthen Shield
1 – Flame Sands👍
1 – Fly👎
1 – Heart of Water👍
1 – Heroism
1 – Major Image
1 – Mass Conviction👍
1 – Mass Resist Energy
1 – Phantom Steed👎
1 – Protection from Energy👎
1 – Sticks and Stones👎
1 – Stinking Cloud👎
1 – Venomfire

4th Level
5 – Polymorph
3 – Celerity
2 – Black Tentacles👎
2 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance👍
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Solid Fog👎
2 – Wall of Salt👎
1 – Consumptive Field
1 – Death Ward👎
1 – Dimension Door
1 – Divine Power👎
1 – Enhance Wildshape
1 – Freedom of Movement👎
1 – Greater Invisibility👎
1 – Heart of the Earth
1 – Minor Creation👎
1 – Orb of Fire👎
1 – Orb of Acid👎
1 – Orb of Cold👎
1 – Orb of Force👎
1 – Scrying👎
1 – Shadow Conjuration👎
1 – Surge of Fortune
1 – Voice of the Dragon
1 – Wall of Sand (Spell Compendium)👎
1 – Wings of Flurry

5th Level
2 – Teleport👍
1 – Arcane Fusion👍
1 – Darkbolt from Darkness
1 – Dominate Person👍
1 – Draconic Polymorph
1 – Fabricate👎
1 – Magic Jar👎
1 – Persistent Image👎
1 – Shadow Evocation👎
1 – Stone Sphere👎
1 – Storm Touch
1 – True Seeing👎
1 – Wall of Thorns

6th Level
3 – Contingency👍
3 – Heroes’ Feast👍
3 – Planar Binding👍
2 – Heal👍
1 – Anyspell👎
1 – Disintegrate👎
1 – Energy Immunity👍
1 – Freezing Glance👎
1 – Permanent Image👎
1 – Valiant Steed

7th Level
3 – Limited Wish👎
2 – Blasphemy👎
2 – Forcecage 👎
2 – Simulacrum👍
1 – Amber Sarcophagus👎
1 – Avasculate👎
1 – Body of War
1 – Control Weather👎
1 – Empyreal Ecstasy👎
1 – Glass Strike
1 – Greater Consumptive Field
1 – Greater Shadow Conjuration👎
1 – Magnificent Mansion👎
1 – Scalding Touch
1 – Spell Turning👎
1 – Unicorn Heart
1 – Vile Rebellion

8th Level
4 – Polymorph Any Object👍
3 – Mind Blank👍
1 – Frostfell👎
1 – Greater Celerity👎
1 – Greater Planar Ally👍
1 – Greater Shadow Evocation👎
1 – Mass Death Ward👎
1 – Mass Dominate Person👎
1 – Maze👎
1 – Moment of Prescience👎
1 – Mystic Shield
1 – Simulacrum👎
1 – Shun the Dark Chaos👍
1 – Trap the Soul👎

9th Level
5 – Shapechange👍
3 – Gate👍
2 – Wish👍
1 – Astral Projection
1 – Chain Contingency👎
1 – Disjunction
1 – Dominate Monster👎
1 – Effulgent Epuration
1 – Foresight👎
1 – Ice Assassin👍
1 – Mindrape👎
1 – Miracle👍
1 – Shades
1 – Teleport Through Time👎
1 – Timestop👎

I'll keep on adding to the list as the thread progresses, because I think this information is useful.

[remetagross]

Oh, yes, Wraithstrike is really, really good for its spell slot. I was in a PbP for a couple years, where both another guy and I were using UMD or Magic Domain with wand chambers in our 2-handed weapons to constantly make full Pwer Attack touch attacks with our respective Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator PCs. This was with that Rules Compendium ruling that a swift-action spell takes a swift action to be used from a wand. That spell pretty much warped all encounters around it. The GM, after some point, sent out monsters pre-buffed with Scintillating Scales for the specific purpose of defeating the use of that spell.

[pabelfly]

Updated this with Troacctid's votes and another upvote for Wraithstrike.

0th Level
3 – Prestidigitation
2 – Detect Magic
1 – Ghost Sound
1 – Resistance

1st Level
4 – Nerveskitter
3 – Entangle
3 – Grease
3 – Silent Image
2 – Benign Transposition
2 – Colour Spray
2 – Conjure Ice Beast I
2 – Conviction
2 – Lesser Vigor
1 – Comprehend Languages
1 – Cure Light Wounds
1 – Disguise Self
1 – Ice Slick
1 – Impending Stones
1 – Obscuring Mist
1 – Power Word Pain
1 – Protection from Evil
1 – Protection from Good
1 – Ray of Resurgence
1 – Shield of Faith
1 – Summon Marked Homunculus
1 – Unseen Servant
1 – Wall of Smoke

2nd Level
6 – Alter Self
4 – Glitterdust
3 – Luminous Armor
2 – Binding Spittle
2 – Guidance of the Avatar
2 – Invisibility
2 – Kelpstrand
2 – Ray of Stupidity
2 – Tyche’s Touch
2 – Web
2 – Wings of Cover
2 – Wraithstrike
1 – Benediction
1 – Command Undead
1 – Create Magic Tattoo
1 – Dark Way
1 – Detect Thoughts
1 – Elemental Dart
1 – Heroics
1 – Lesser Celerity
1 – Mirror Image
1 – Resistance Energy
1 – Rope Trick
1 – Silence
1 – Whispercast

3rd Level
3 – Animate Dead
3 – Glibness
3 – Shivering Touch
2 – Disobedience
2 – Flame Sands
2 – Haste
2 – Heart of Water
2 – Mass Conviction
2 – Primal Instinct
1 – Anyspell
1 – Battlemagic Perception
1 – Create Lantern Archon
1 – Earthen Shield
1 – Fly
1 – Heroism
1 – Major Image
1 – Mass Resist Energy
1 – Phantom Steed
1 – Protection from Energy
1 – Sticks and Stones
1 – Stinking Cloud
1 – Venomfire

4th Level
5 – Polymorph
3 – Celerity
3 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
2 – Black Tentacles
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Solid Fog
2 – Wall of Salt
1 – Consumptive Field
1 – Death Ward
1 – Dimension Door
1 – Divine Power
1 – Enhance Wildshape
1 – Freedom of Movement
1 – Greater Invisibility
1 – Heart of the Earth
1 – Minor Creation
1 – Orb of Fire
1 – Orb of Acid
1 – Orb of Cold
1 – Orb of Force
1 – Scrying
1 – Shadow Conjuration
1 – Surge of Fortune
1 – Voice of the Dragon
1 – Wall of Sand (Spell Compendium)
1 – Wings of Flurry

5th Level
3 – Teleport
2 – Arcane Fusion
2 – Dominate Person
1 – Darkbolt from Darkness
1 – Draconic Polymorph
1 – Fabricate
1 – Magic Jar
1 – Persistent Image
1 – Shadow Evocation
1 – Stone Sphere
1 – Storm Touch
1 – True Seeing
1 – Wall of Thorns

6th Level
4 – Contingency
4 – Heroes’ Feast
4 – Planar Binding
3 – Heal
2 – Energy Immunity
1 – Anyspell
1 – Disintegrate
1 – Freezing Glance
1 – Permanent Image
1 – Valiant Steed

7th Level
3 – Limited Wish
3 – Simulacrum
2 – Blasphemy
2 – Forcecage
1 – Amber Sarcophagus
1 – Avasculate
1 – Body of War
1 – Control Weather
1 – Empyreal Ecstasy
1 – Glass Strike
1 – Greater Consumptive Field
1 – Greater Shadow Conjuration
1 – Magnificent Mansion
1 – Scalding Touch
1 – Spell Turning
1 – Unicorn Heart
1 – Vile Rebellion

8th Level
5 – Polymorph Any Object
4 – Mind Blank
2 – Greater Planar Ally
2 – Shun the Dark Chaos
1 – Frostfell
1 – Greater Celerity
1 – Greater Shadow Evocation
1 – Mass Death Ward
1 – Mass Dominate Person
1 – Maze
1 – Moment of Prescience
1 – Mystic Shield
1 – Simulacrum
1 – Trap the Soul

9th Level
6 – Shapechange
4 – Gate
3 – Wish
2 – Ice Assassin
2 – Miracle
1 – Astral Projection
1 – Chain Contingency
1 – Disjunction
1 – Dominate Monster
1 – Effulgent Epuration
1 – Foresight
1 – Mindrape
1 – Shades
1 – Teleport Through Time
1 – Timestop

[Postmodernist]

I just want to thank everyone who has commented in this thread. Has been a super fun conversation to follow, and is a pretty great resource to consult whenever you're making a spell casting character and have forgotten an item or two, or if you're a limited spells known class and want to maximize the bang for your buck. Bravo.

[Ramza00]

A wand of Resurgence is an awesome spell. For a standard action and 15 GP (7.5 if crafted), or a 1st level Cleric / Paladin / Blackguard spell slot you try to save again or give an ally you touch to save again against a negative condition.

The only real cost is the use of an action in other words, one needs to be at the right place and the right time to help out an ally and not trying to kill an enemy directly. Yet this also is helpful as a healing after the combat benefit against certain conditions that last beyond the encounter. (stuff like Paralyzed, Petrified, turn to Ice, etc)

[Lans]

Mount is pretty broken

[Xenken]

Mount is pretty broken

wait, why?

[Wonton64]

wait, why?

Unless it's a joke, one could theoretically sell the summoned light horse for 37.5 gold each cast and there's no material component cost at all. The wizard could be long gone by the time the summoning ends.

[Kalkra]

I'll mention that while Steal Life is unlikely to ever be used by a PC, the concept is pretty powerful. You can basically de-age yourself with no real cost. Realistically, it would probably be one of the most cast spells of its level. Also, shout-out to Death Knell for being one of the few spells that increases your CL, although it's kinda limited in usage, and at high levels the bonuses aren't that great.

[Xenken]

Updated this with Troacctid's votes and another upvote for Wraithstrike:


Spells I think I saw mentioned elsewhere in the thread that aren't in your list yet (level): Fire Eyes (0), Ray of Stupidity (2), Unfettered Heroism (5), Shalanta's Delicate Disc (6), Necrotic Tumor (7)

[Lans]

wait, why?

At level 1 you get a 19 hp bag of meat that lasts 2 hours that can attack.

[Ramza00]

Unless it's a joke, one could theoretically sell the summoned light horse for 37.5 gold each cast and there's no material component cost at all. The wizard could be long gone by the time the summoning ends.

2nd Mount, Communal (PF)
3rd Regal Procession (3.5)

Are both fabulous ways to put lots of bodies on the field in closed spaces, giving you 6 Bodies for Communal Mount, and CL bodies for Regal Procession. Great way to buy time for characters if the enemy has no Area of Effect for they have to kill the enemies prior to movement if they move in 2 dimensions and each kill followed by move is 2 action types if they do not have reach or ranged weapons.

There are limits here of course. The spell becomes less useful than a wall spell but most of the good wall spells are 4th and 5th level while these are 2nd and 3rd level. Likewise these spells have a summoning casting time of 1 round (not a standard, not a full round, but 1 round so does not activate till next turn) but of course many of the ways to speed up Summon Monster also apply to Communal Mount and Regal Possession.

[Seward]

Mount is pretty good. Party strategic mobility at very low levels (you can force march the mounts with no real consequence), a size large summon that lasts 2 hours as a meat shield even at L1, anybody can use actions to control it with ride or handle animal, unlike something like unseen servant, and has more carrying capacity (if less difficult terrain/confined area flexibility and durability vs hazards) than a tenser's disk until fairly high levels.

It makes it into my routine spell mixes quite often, and in Living Greyhawk was a nice hedge against "that guy" who didn't buy a mount for his heavy armored dude who would slow the whole party down.

[RandomPeasant]

Oh, yes, Wraithstrike is really, really good for its spell slot. I was in a PbP for a couple years, where both another guy and I were using UMD or Magic Domain with wand chambers in our 2-handed weapons to constantly make full Pwer Attack touch attacks with our respective Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator PCs. This was with that Rules Compendium ruling that a swift-action spell takes a swift action to be used from a wand. That spell pretty much warped all encounters around it. The GM, after some point, sent out monsters pre-buffed with Scintillating Scales for the specific purpose of defeating the use of that spell.

wraithstrike is another slightly odd one, in that you would basically never cast it as a straight Wizard. I suppose it fits into a hyper-stacked Incantatrix buff routine, but for the Wizard on the go that slot would rather be anything other than a 1-round buff to melee combat. But if you're casting it as some kind of melee combatant, either a gish or one activating a wand, it skyrockets up to totally nuts.


I'll mention that while Steal Life is unlikely to ever be used by a PC, the concept is pretty powerful. You can basically de-age yourself with no real cost. Realistically, it would probably be one of the most cast spells of its level. Also, shout-out to Death Knell for being one of the few spells that increases your CL, although it's kinda limited in usage, and at high levels the bonuses aren't that great.

steal life is in no way appropriate for what OP is asking about. It is a cool spell that you can have a villain use to do plot stuff, and it is marginally interesting if people can arrange restoration castings to remove the downside, but there is no standard by which it is "the most OP spell of its level" at a level which contains greater planar binding and polymorph any object.


Spells I think I saw mentioned elsewhere in the thread that aren't in your list yet (level): Fire Eyes (0), Ray of Stupidity (1), Unfettered Heroism (5), Shalanta's Delicate Disc (6), Necrotic Tumor (7)

ray of stupidity is 2nd level, not 1st.


I just want to thank everyone who has commented in this thread. Has been a super fun conversation to follow, and is a pretty great resource to consult whenever you're making a spell casting character and have forgotten an item or two, or if you're a limited spells known class and want to maximize the bang for your buck. Bravo.

If you're looking for a reference when making spellcasting characters, this (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_that_Fvcking_Kill_People_(3.5e_Other)) is a good place to start. I think there's a version for utility spells out there somewhere, but I don't know where it is.

[pabelfly]

A wand of Resurgence is an awesome spell.

Added


Mount is pretty broken

Added


Spells I think I saw mentioned elsewhere in the thread that aren't in your list yet (level): Fire Eyes (0), Ray of Stupidity (2), Unfettered Heroism (5), Shalanta's Delicate Disc (6), Necrotic Tumor (7)

Found the post, added these and a few others


If you're looking for a reference when making spellcasting characters, this (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_that_Fvcking_Kill_People_(3.5e_Other)) is a good place to start. I think there's a version for utility spells out there somewhere, but I don't know where it is.

Added

Current list:

0th Level
3 – Prestidigitation
2 – Detect Magic
1 – Fire Eyes
1 – Ghost Sound
1 – Resistance

1st Level
4 – Grease
4 – Nerveskitter
4 – Silent Image
3 – Colour Spray
3 – Entangle
2 – Benign Transposition
2 – Conjure Ice Beast I
2 – Conviction
2 – Lesser Vigor
2 – Mount
2 – Power Word Pain
2 – Summon Marked Homunculus
2 – Wall of Smoke
1 – Comprehend Languages
1 – Cure Light Wounds
1 – Disguise Self
1 – Ice Slick
1 – Impending Stones
1 – Obscuring Mist
1 – Protection from Evil
1 – Protection from Good
1 – Ray of Resurgence
1 – Resurge
1 – Seething Eyebrain
1 – Shield of Faith
1 – Sleep
1 – Unseen Servant

2nd Level
7 – Alter Self
5 – Glitterdust
3 – Luminous Armor
3 – Web
2 – Binding Spittle
2 – Guidance of the Avatar
2 – Invisibility
2 – Kelpstrand
2 – Ray of Stupidity
2 – Tyche’s Touch
2 – Wings of Cover
2 – Wraithstrike
1 – Benediction
1 – Blindness
1 – Cloud of Bewilderment
1 – Command Undead
1 – Create Magic Tattoo
1 – Dark Way
1 – Detect Thoughts
1 – Elemental Dart
1 – Ghoul Touch
1 – Heroics
1 – Lam's Fingerdarts
1 – Lesser Celerity
1 – Mirror Image
1 – Phantasmal Assailants
1 – Resistance Energy
1 – Rope Trick
1 – Shadowspray
1 – Silence
1 – Whispercast

3rd Level
4 – Shivering Touch
3 – Animate Dead
3 – Glibness
2 – Disobedience
2 – Flame Sands
2 – Haste
2 – Heart of Water
2 – Major Image
2 – Mass Conviction
2 – Primal Instinct
2 – Venomfire
1 – Anyspell
1 – Battlemagic Perception
1 – Create Lantern Archon
1 – Deep Slumber
1 – Earthen Shield
1 – Flashburst
1 – Fly
1 – Great Thundercalp
1 – Heroism
1 – Mass Resist Energy
1 – Mesmerizing Glare
1 – Nauseating Breath
1 – Phantom Steed
1 – Protection from Energy
1 – Shadow Binding
1 – Sticks and Stones
1 – Stinking Cloud
1 – Vertigo Field

4th Level
6 – Polymorph
3 – Black Tentacles
3 – Celerity
3 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
3 – Solid Fog
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Wall of Salt
2 – Wings of Flurry
1 – Call of Stone
1 – Charm Monster
1 – Consumptive Field
1 – Death Ward
1 – Dimension Door
1 – Divine Power
1 – Enhance Wildshape
1 – Fear
1 – Finger of Agony
1 – Freedom of Movement
1 – Greater Invisibility
1 – Greater Rebuke
1 – Heart of the Earth
1 – Iceweb
1 – Minor Creation
1 – Orb of Fire
1 – Orb of Acid
1 – Orb of Cold
1 – Orb of Force
1 – Phantasmal Killer
1 – Scrying
1 – Shadow Conjuration
1 – Surge of Fortune
1 – Voice of the Dragon
1 – Wall of Sand (Spell Compendium)
1 – Wall of Good

5th Level
3 – Teleport
2 – Arcane Fusion
2 – Dominate Person
2 – Magic Jar
1 – Baleful Polymorph
1 – Call Forth the Beast
1 – Cloudkill
1 – Darkbolt from Darkness
1 – Draconic Polymorph
1 – Fabricate
1 – Flesh to Ice
1 – Friend to Foe
1 – Hold Monster
1 – Illusory Feast
1 – Persistent Image
1 – Shadow Evocation
1 – Stone Sphere
1 – Storm Touch
1 – Touch of Vecna
1 – True Seeing
1 – Wall of Force
1 – Wall of Stone
1 – Wall of Thorns
1 – Wrack
1 – Unfettered Heroism

6th Level
4 – Contingency
4 – Heroes’ Feast
4 – Planar Binding
3 – Heal
2 – Energy Immunity
2 – Freezing Glance
1 – Acid Fog
1 – Anyspell
1 – Disintegrate
1 – Endless Slumber
1 – Entomb
1 – Eyebite
1 – Flesh to Stone
1 – Freezing Fog
1 – Heartfreeze
1 – Mudslide
1 – Permanent Image
1 – Programmed Image
1 – Shalanta's Delicate Disc
1 – Valiant Steed

7th Level
3 – Forcecage
3 – Limited Wish
3 – Simulacrum
2 – Blasphemy
1 – Amber Sarcophagus
1 – Avasculate
1 – Body of War
1 – Control Weather
1 – Empyreal Ecstasy
1 – Evil Glare
1 – Finger of Death
1 – Final Rebuke
1 – Glass Strike
1 – Greater Consumptive Field
1 – Greater Shadow Conjuration
1 – Hiss of Sleep
1 – Magnificent Mansion
1 – Necrotic Tumor
1 – Prismatic Spray
1 – Scalding Touch
1 – Spell Turning
1 – Unicorn Heart
1 – Vile Rebellion

8th Level
6 – Polymorph Any Object
4 – Mind Blank
2 – Greater Planar Ally
2 – Maze
2 – Shun the Dark Chaos
2 – Trap the Soul
1 – Flensing
1 – Frostfell
1 – Greater Celerity
1 – Greater Shadow Evocation
1 – Irresistible Dance
1 – Mass Charm
1 – Mass Death Ward
1 – Mass Dominate Person
1 – Moment of Prescience
1 – Mystic Shield
1 – Polymorph Any Object
1 – Power Word Shun
1 – Simulacrum
1 – Wrathful Castigation

9th Level
8 – Shapechange
4 – Gate
3 – Wish
2 – Dominate Monster
2 – Ice Assassin
2 – Mindrape
2 – Miracle
1 – Astral Projection
1 – Chain Contingency
1 – Detonate
1 – Disjunction
1 – Effulgent Epuration
1 – Foresight
1 – Frostfell
1 – Mass Hold Monster
1 – Reality Maelstrom
1 – Shades
1 – Teleport Through Time
1 – Timestop
1 – Wail of the Banshee
1 – Weird

[Xenken]

ray of stupidity is 2nd level, not 1st.


Thanks for the correction!

Also thanks for the list, although I'm slightly suspicious of it not having the kind of focus we'd want for a "best in class" compendium.

Phantasmal Killer? Weird? Flensing? Silent and Major Image as spells that kill people?

[remetagross]

Yeah, I definitely agree that Flensing, while an okay spell, is far from being overpowered for its level.

Ah, here's another one which, I think, is the lowest level Save-or-Die of them all: Touch of Juiblex. Ok, it's a Fort negates, SR:yes, 1d6 points of Str damage casting cost spell and it takes 4 turns to actually kill the foe (it is transformed into green slime). However, it's not [death], nor is it [mind-affecting], nor [fear], nor explicitely a [polymorph] effect, nor a petrification one...in other words, not much is immune to that.

[Metastachydium]

(it is transformed into green slime)

Troll 2: the Spell.

[RandomPeasant]

Also thanks for the list, although I'm slightly suspicious of it not having the kind of focus we'd want for a "best in class" compendium.

That list is not intended as a list of broken spells, it's intended to be used in the context the person I replied to it with is talking about: finding spells that you should use as a caster. Most of the spells on that list aren't broken, they're just good offensive spells at the relevant levels, which is going to be much more relevant.


Phantasmal Killer? Weird? Flensing? Silent and Major Image as spells that kill people?

phantasmal killer is a double-save-or-die, but it's one the earliest literal save-or-dies. weird is wail of the banshee, and yes the double-save and [Mind-Affecting] nature makes it mostly worse, but it does have a few advantages (targeting, not a [Death] effect, save-or-stun on the Will save). flensing does Charisma damage which, like any other sort of ability damage, kills the arbitrary subset of creatures that happen to have low Charisma (and unlike power word pain comes at a level where tactical retreats are a viable option). silent image doesn't give the target a save until they've wasted an action interacting with it, making it an extremely high floor option, particularly against mindless creatures who aren't going to be "programmed" to do things that test images. major image is simply slightly harder to identify as not real and a bit more flexible.

Again, none of those (except maybe silent image) are ones I would identify as OP at their level. But all of them are things I would expect to consider preparing at their level, or preparing to deal with if my DM used a lot of classed NPCs.

[bekeleven]

I only posted wizard spells before, here's a few more I like

Improvisation (Brd 1): Gain floating bonus you can apply to skill checks for R/L.

Sonorous Hum (Brd 2, Cleric + Wizard 3): Concentrate on a spell for free.

Wings of Cover (Sor 2), of course. Immediate action to blank just about anything.

Mold Touch (Initiate of Nature 3): Make a patch of brown mold, the dungeon hazard, or on a person with a touch attack. If you get a little cold resistance this thing is absolutely ruthless, and the mold will sit there indefinitely, and has no material component.

Putting in my vote for Glibness (Bard 3), which has already been mentioned

Stifle Spell (Cleric 4, Wiz 4): Immediate action counterspell attempt, no fuss no muss, pretty good for its level although hardly an I-win button.

Backbiter (Wiz 1): This thing is absolutely brutal the level you get it, since it hits all nonmagical weapons. Next attack target nonmagical weapon makes (within R/L) hits its wielder instead of anyone else. Just hitting them with their weapon would be worth it against a typical low-level enemy; this negates an attack, too? Absurd.

Voice of the Dragon (Wiz 4): This isn't busted for the level, but it's sort of "Bad Glibness that wizards get too." +10 to Bluff, Diplo, and intimidate for 10 Minutes/level, and you can expend it to cast suggestion. Also it's a transmutation spell, you know, in case you banned enchantment.

Ray Deflection (Wiz 4) has come up in this thread a few times but nobody's said it's a solid spell itself. If it's a reason to not like other spells, then maybe that means you're picking it! Blank all ranged touch attacks for 1 minute/level. This thing was 3rd level until spell compendium came out, if you can believe that.

Lesser Restoration (Paladin 1, Cleric 2): There's a few obscure lists (Soldier of Light? Impure Prince? I forget) that have this as an arcane spell, so make an eternal wand. Boom. Non-casting characters no longer need to sleep, just cure your fatigue every morning.

Favor of the Martyr (Paladin 4): Gain immunity to, you know, whatever. Infamously used to cheese things that daze you, but hits anyone in medium range and lasts 1 minute/level so it's not bad even outside abuse.

Warp Destiny (Destiny Domain 6): Reroll any save with +CL, or add +CL to your AC against an attack. Usable even after you know you fail/get hit. Gives a -4 to some stuff for a round, who cares?

Slime Wave (Cleric 7, Druid 7): Shoot green slime in a 15-foot radius spread. Against a large target, this can deal 4D6 constitution damage the first round. Oh, did I not mention the slime sticks to anything it touches? So make that every round.

Clarity of Mind (Level 2-3 on obscure lists, like blackguard for some reason): +4 vs. Mind-affecting, and also blind fight for some reason? Hour/Level.

Nobody's mentioned Divine Insight (Cleric 2) yet? Hour/Level, expend before rolling to give up to +15 insight on a single skill check. One of the best skill-modifying spells this side of Glibness, and even Glibness only works on the game's second best skill.

That Art Thou (Meditation OA Domain 3): Yes, it's obscure. And good thing, because it's broken straight in half. For 1 round per level, you have access to all the senses of everything within 30 feet of you. No save, no SR. Flat +20 to search, spot and listen, you can't be flat-footed or flanked. And that's just the mechanical benefits; it's easy to ask a DM if you automatically know what square all invisible creatures are in, pinpoint ambushers, etc. etc. Not an emanation so it works through walls.

Possess (Shaman 5): This is sort of Dominate Monster for Round/Level. Yeah, you needing to leave your body behind for the duration is a drawback, but a lot of the time that doesn't matter. Possess a guard, kill another guard, kill yourself, boom, you're back. Or Possess a guard, let your party in (one of which is carrying your body), he has no memory of anything that happened while possessed.

[Xenken]

That list is not intended as a list of broken spells, it's intended to be used in the context the person I replied to it with is talking about: finding spells that you should use as a caster. Most of the spells on that list aren't broken, they're just good offensive spells at the relevant levels, which is going to be much more relevant.



phantasmal killer is a double-save-or-die, but it's one the earliest literal save-or-dies. weird is wail of the banshee, and yes the double-save and [Mind-Affecting] nature makes it mostly worse, but it does have a few advantages (targeting, not a [Death] effect, save-or-stun on the Will save). flensing does Charisma damage which, like any other sort of ability damage, kills the arbitrary subset of creatures that happen to have low Charisma (and unlike power word pain comes at a level where tactical retreats are a viable option). silent image doesn't give the target a save until they've wasted an action interacting with it, making it an extremely high floor option, particularly against mindless creatures who aren't going to be "programmed" to do things that test images. major image is simply slightly harder to identify as not real and a bit more flexible.

Again, none of those (except maybe silent image) are ones I would identify as OP at their level. But all of them are things I would expect to consider preparing at their level, or preparing to deal with if my DM used a lot of classed NPCs.

Well, I mean...

They *were* specifically asking for "most OP spells", so we should be setting our standards pretty high, no?
Which isn't to say it's bad to have a big list, or anything like that.

but is Phantasmal Killer in the same tier as Wings of Flurry or Solid Fog or Polymorph?

is Flensing as worthy of a prep as Greater Planar Ally or Maze? Is it, honestly, even better as a stat reducing spell then the 3rd level Shivering Touch?

I'll accept the claim that Weird is the equal to Wail of the Banshee, but do we put either in the realm of Shapechange, Miracle, or Astral Projection?

It just seems like the goal of the OP is looking for the best spells and the goal of the fvcking kill people post is spells that are good enough, in which case you trim from the latter to get the cream of the crop for the former.

[RandomPeasant]

They *were* specifically asking for "most OP spells", so we should be setting our standards pretty high, no?

OP was, but I didn't reply to OP. I replied to the guy who said that this thread was a good resource for building characters. I absolutely agree that most of the spells on the list I linked aren't answers to OP's question, but honestly so aren't a lot of the spells that have made it to the list. heal? invisibility? comprehend languages? moment of prescience? These are not overpowered spells.


Is it, honestly, even better as a stat reducing spell then the 3rd level Shivering Touch?

It's not better, but it is different. There are monsters with higher Dexterity than Charisma, and flensing will answer them better than shivering touch.

[Xenken]

OP was, but I didn't reply to OP. I replied to the guy who said that this thread was a good resource for building characters. I absolutely agree that most of the spells on the list I linked aren't answers to OP's question, but honestly so aren't a lot of the spells that have made it to the list. heal? invisibility? comprehend languages? moment of prescience? These are not overpowered spells.


OH, I see what you mean. Yeah that's fair. And yeah they aren't. (Though I'd call them all better than P-Killer, heh.) Maybe I'll come back here and make two lists out of the bigger compiled one to seperate OP answers from more general character building.

(Note: Someone's gotta teach me more about image spells, I don't quite get how to use them.)




It's not better, but it is different. There are monsters with higher Dexterity than Charisma, and flensing will answer them better than shivering touch.

Unless that creature has a good fort save, anyway. But it's not like a monster worth using an 8th level slot on would have that right?


As for other spells, Bloodfreeze Arrow and Sacred Item, for their permenant duration?

I heard the caster cleric thread next door talking about Hesitate and Streamers, and I remember them vaguely from elsewhere. How good are those?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I heard the caster cleric thread next door talking about Hesitate and Streamers, and I remember them vaguely from elsewhere. How good are those?

Hesitate is immediate action will save or can only take move actions for 1 round/level.
It's mind-affecting and offers a new save every round but for an immediate-action 3rd level spell it's still pretty good.

Streamers makes a number of no-save touch attacks (up to four) for 5d10 damage each whenever the target takes any kind of action for 1 round/level.
The streamers can be attacked and destroyed but it's still pretty dangerous for a 5th level spell.

[Remuko]

I only posted wizard spells before, here's a few more I like

Improvisation (Brd 1): Gain floating bonus you can apply to skill checks for R/L.

Sonorous Hum (Brd 2, Cleric + Wizard 3): Concentrate on a spell for free.

Wings of Cover (Clr 2), of course. Immediate action to blank just about anything.

Mold Touch (Initiate of Nature 3): Make a patch of brown mold, the dungeon hazard, or on a person with a touch attack. If you get a little cold resistance this thing is absolutely ruthless, and the mold will sit there indefinitely, and has no material component.

Putting in my vote for Glibness (Bard 3), which has already been mentioned

Stifle Spell (Cleric 4, Wiz 4): Immediate action counterspell attempt, no fuss no muss, pretty good for its level although hardly an I-win button.

Backbiter (Wiz 1): This thing is absolutely brutal the level you get it, since it hits all nonmagical weapons. Next attack target nonmagical weapon makes (within R/L) hits its wielder instead of anyone else. Just hitting them with their weapon would be worth it against a typical low-level enemy; this negates an attack, too? Absurd.

Voice of the Dragon: This isn't busted for the level, but it's sort of "Bad Glibness that wizards get too." +10 to Bluff, Diplo, and intimidate for 10 Minutes/level, and you can expend it to cast suggestion. Also it's a transmutation spell, you know, in case you banned enchantment.

Ray Deflection (Wiz 4) has come up in this thread a few times but nobody's said it's a solid spell itself. If it's a reason to not like other spells, then maybe that means you're picking it! Blank all ranged touch attacks for 1 minute/level. This thing was 3rd level until spell compendium came out, if you can believe that.

Lesser Restoration (Paladin 1, Cleric 2): There's a few obscure lists (Soldier of Light? Impure Prince? I forget) that have this as an arcane spell, so make an eternal wand. Boom. Non-casting characters no longer need to sleep, just cure your fatigue every morning.

Favor of the Martyr (Paladin 4): Gain immunity to, you know, whatever. Infamously used to cheese things that daze you, but hits anyone in medium range and lasts 1 minute/level so it's not bad even outside abuse.

Warp Destiny (Destiny Domain 6): Reroll any save with +CL, or add +CL to your AC against an attack. Usable even after you know you fail/get hit. Gives a -4 to some stuff for a round, who cares?

Slime Wave (Cleric 7, Druid 7): Shoot green slime in a 15-foot radius spread. Against a large target, this can deal 4D6 constitution damage the first round. Oh, did I not mention the slime sticks to anything it touches? So make that every round.

Clarity of Mind (Level 2-3 on obscure lists, like blackguard for some reason): +4 vs. Mind-affecting, and also blind fight for some reason? Hour/Level.

Nobody's mentioned Divine Insight (Cleric 2) yet? Hour/Level, expend before rolling to give up to +15 insight on a single skill check. One of the best skill-modifying spells this side of Glibness, and even Glibness only works on the game's second best skill.

That Art Thou (Meditation OA Domain 3): Yes, it's obscure. And good thing, because it's broken straight in half. For 1 round per level, you have access to all the senses of everything within 30 feet of you. No save, no SR. Flat +20 to search, spot and listen, you can't be flat-footed or flanked. And that's just the mechanical benefits; it's easy to ask a DM if you automatically know what square all invisible creatures are in, pinpoint ambushers, etc. etc. Not an emanation so it works through walls.

Possess (Shaman 5): This is sort of Dominate Monster for Round/Level. Yeah, you needing to leave your body behind for the duration is a drawback, but a lot of the time that doesn't matter. Possess a guard, kill another guard, kill yourself, boom, you're back. Or Possess a guard, let your party in (one of which is carrying your body), he has no memory of anything that happened while possessed.

Wings of Cover is Sorc 2 not Clr 2. Also no class or spell level listed for voice of the dragon.

[Thurbane]

Wings of Cover is Sorc 2 not Clr 2. Also no class or spell level listed for voice of the dragon.

Sor/Wiz 4, apparently.

[Harrow]

Depending on your reading, Distilled Joy (Sorc/Wiz 3) can be very useful. The spell description makes it sound like it was supposed to be one dose of ambrosia per casting, but the casting details (1 day casting time, permanent duration) instead make it look like you just cast it once, then get a does of ambrosia whenever someone meets the somewhat-vague happiness requirements. If you read it as the latter, then it's not too awfully difficult to completely negate magic item XP cost. You likely wouldn't be able to set something like that up every campaign. But, if you don't have the time or resources to produce endless ambrosia, I don't see you being able to do any serious crafting anyway. I would like to note that Pathfinder just did away with crafting XP costs entirely and crafting feats are still considered situational, so maybe infinite crafting XP isn't as big of a deal as it maybe feels like it should be.

It doesn't match the requirements for the thread, but I feel some sort of special/honorary mention go to a couple of Artificer infusions.

Artificer 1: Spell Storing Item creates a 1 charge wand of any spell up to 4th level. It's not very useful right out of the gate, because the level of spell it can be used for is limited by class level, meaning it can only be used for level 0 spells at level 1, and it requires a pretty high (for low levels) Use Magic Device check to cast. But by mid levels, you're spending a piddly amount of XP and a first level slot to cast a 4th level spell. That's crazy! Not to mention all the fun Artificers can have with wands in general.

Artificer 4: Item Alteration. It's just bananas. For 10 minutes/level, you change the type of bonus a magic item gives. Put on a Cloak of Resistance +6, then cast this to make it a +6 alchemical bonus to saves. Then put on a Vest of Resistance +6, cast Item Alteration on that to make it an insight bonus to saves. Then cast Superior Resistance and rock a total of +18 to saves, before base saves or ability modifiers.

[RandomPeasant]

OH, I see what you mean. Yeah that's fair. And yeah they aren't. (Though I'd call them all better than P-Killer, heh.) Maybe I'll come back here and make two lists out of the bigger compiled one to seperate OP answers from more general character building.

I haven't actually done a level-by-level answer of OP's question, though I have responded to a few individual points. So here goes:

0th: Nothing here is meaningfully OP. Yes, you prepare detect magic over acid splash, but that's because 1d3 damage is a joke, not because knowing if things are magic is game-breaking. There are a few tricks you can pull that are strong (gnome ACF for 0th level silent image, Eschew Materials + launch bolt, Cloudy Conjuration + caltrops), but nothing that I think you can call OP. Verdict: Nothing.

1st: Again, I don't think you can call anything here OP. Yes, color spray and sleep are good and you should cast them because they end combats. But they're only marginally better than your other picks for offensive spells to use at low levels. And that's how it is for every niche at 1st level. There are many options for good offensive spells. There are many options for good utility spells. There are many options for spells with utility over the course of a campaign. If you start calling things at this level "OP" you quickly have to eliminate a large swathe of spells. Verdict: Nothing.

2nd: I stand by my assessment that alter self is the best spell at this level, and probably the best spell for its level of any level. ray of stupidity is good, but it's not really OP, as while it OHKOs animals, most animals can be beat by a dude with the combined powers of "longbow" and "flight". It's also a little awkward to use, as it's too niche to dedicate a top-level slot to as a Wizard, let alone learn as a Sorcerer, so most characters will rarely have access to it at the levels where animals are most common. It is pretty solid as an Advanced Learning pick for a Beguiler though. wraithstrike is notable for being probably the only spell I would consider making Persistent without metamagic reducers, but I maintain that it's too build-dependent to qualify as OP. I don't think there's much else that merits discussion at this level. Verdict: alter self.

3rd: I mostly don't think combat spells are OP, particularly spells you cast in combat for a benefit in combat. But shivering touch is one of the few exceptions to that. There are a few weaknesses you'd like to mitigate (melee touch isn't where a Wizard wants to be, and you'd like to toss Maximize or at least Empower on there to make it truly reliable against a wide range of foes), but even taken purely on its own it is a 3rd level spell that can one-shot epic level enemies. That's insane. That said, you can just be immune to it, and it is entirely possible (if heavily contrived and somewhat uninteresting) to have entire adventures where the spell does exactly nothing. Still, it is an extremely powerful spell.

However, there is another contender: animate dead. animate dead is the first thing I'd consider to be true minionmancy (a spell that gives you mooks one day without needing to be cast that day), and the Cleric gets various abilities that make them well-suited to using it, primarily desecrate. It is a somewhat strange spell in that you basically never want to cast it on an adventuring day, and repeated castings rapidly hit a cap (making it somewhat more like a class feature in some respects), but it is extremely strong for its level, and even human skeletons can do work if it's properly supported, to say nothing of what you can achieve if your DM is generous with corpses.

Verdict: animate dead, shivering touch.

4th: I think this is the level with the most viable options. polymorph is the elephant in the room, and the natural choice after having picked alter self. That said, I do think it's a bit worse, relatively speaking, as the Druid now has Wild Shape (not as abusable, but hours/level duration is a big advantage) and the Cleric has divine power (again a much lower ceiling, but DMM Persist is the easiest way to gish yourself up in the game). It also has to contend with the rise of effective minionmancy.

Speaking of minionmancy, there are a lot of good options here. animate dead comes in to general use (though it's only the Dread Necromancer who has a case for using it better than the Cleric). The Cleric picks up lesser planar ally, and a 6HD outsider is nothing to sneeze at for a 7th level party. charm monster rounds things out, allowing you to build an extremely large stable of mind-controlled minions, and being harder to shut down than dominate person. These spells all have their relative strengths and weaknesses (charm monster is a SoD but has explicit counters, lesser planar ally gives up some agency over what you get, and so on), but they are all extremely powerful, and any one of them would be enough to get you a seat at the table even if you had little else going on. I do bump animate dead down some though, as it's just better to get it from the Cleric, who gets it earlier.

The outside shot is celerity. It has the best staying power of any option at this level, as you will get better form-changing than polymorph and better minionmancy than any option at this level. But cashing in a 4th level spell slot for an action gets better as you have more spell slots to use your actions on and place less value on 4th level spell slots. I probably wouldn't prepare celerity as a 7th level Wizard unless I knew I was having a boss fight that day, but I would prepare it every day by 10th level, and probably multiple times by 15th.

Verdict: polymorph, lesser planar ally, charm monster, celerity.

5th: This is a big power spike for casters in general, but I think in some ways the OP spells here are less OP than they were at 4th. draconic polymorph is strictly better than polymorph (as a self-buff spell), but by a smaller margin than the improvement from solid fog to baleful polymorph. dominate person isn't even clearly better than charm monster.

Let's start by talking about dominate person. Specifically: this spell should not exist. "You can make things your mooks, but only if they have a specific type" is not a power constraint. It is a "the DM can't use certain types of monsters" constraint. As the PCs can generally attest, humanoids are fully capable of being just as powerful as any monster, so this spell only has the power cap your DM gives it. Whether this is better than charm monster basically comes down to whether your DM is more likely to throw weak humanoids at you or interpret charmed enemies as not helping you very much.

teleport gets a lot of attention at this level. I'm normally loathe to mark non-combat spells as "OP", since there aren't really good benchmarks to compare them to, but I think in teleport's case there is a colorable argument. There are a lot of strategic mobility spells, and teleport manages to be both better and lower level than some of them. I think you could reasonably believe that teleport should be removed, and people should rely on less-general strategic movement options until greater teleport at 7th level. That said, I don't know that I feel too strongly about it.

lesser planar binding is the obvious pick. That said, it is the worst-positioned of the planar ally and planar binding lines. 6HD at 9th level is a lot worse than 6HD at 7th level, 12HD at 11th level, or 18HD at 15th level. But it is still very good.

Verdict: draconic polymorph, lesser planar binding

6th: The answer is planar binding. The backup answer is planar ally. I still maintain that anyone who says heroes' feast is flatly wrong, and the arguments and standards presented for it are neither compelling nor consistent. contingency is strong, but I'm somewhat hesitant to give it a shout when Craft Contingent Spell exists. In a core-only environment, it probably deserves a spot, but when there's a feat that does what it does but more, I'm disinclined to credit it as OP.

Verdict: planar binding, planar ally

7th: simulacrum is the obvious answer here. But I'm not entirely convinced. Unless you are doing silly things like "my spell component pouch contains pieces of advanced versions of the creatures that I want to make copies of" it is not very impressive (and if you are doing those things you should just have your planar binding'd Efreet wish for a scroll of ice assassin). A mini-me is nice, especially if you are a Red Wizard, but it is not as impressive as what you could get from planar binding, and costs XP to boot. That said, I won't argue much with the people who pick it here.

limited wish is similar. I like it a lot more than wish, as 500 XP is way less punishing than 5,000 XP, but I'd fairly often rather have a generally-useful 7th level spell that costs me 0XP, or leave a slot open if I really want utility during the day. That said, it does do a lot of stuff, and XP is a river, so I think the versatility plus the ability to abuse spells with non-slot costs (e.g. popping out major creation for "a whole bunch of lava" during combat) probably puts it over the top.

While I still disagree that they are fundamentally broken, and believe the appropriate fix is simply to have Level = CL = HD = CR consistently, it's undeniable that blasphemy and friends are incredibly powerful as the game stands. You can reasonably cheese up your caster level to the point that these spells are no-save-just-dies against any printed monster, and while there are defenses they are fairly specific things that most printed enemies factually do not have.

Verdict: blasphemy, word of chaos, dictum, holy word, limited wish

8th: Another simple level: greater planar binding, greater planar ally, and polymorph any objects are all substantially-improved versions of spells that took the top spot at their previous levels.

Verdict: greater planar binding, greater planar ally, polymorph any objects

9th: There are many powerful spells at 9th level. But as has been noted, by 9th level spells are expected to be powerful. The superlatives here are miracle (this does the things wish does but without an XP cost, it should not have less votes), shapechange (probably the single most abusable spell in the game, and the peak of the tower of rules arguments that is form-changing magic), and ice assassin (exponential power growth, or linear if you're afraid of breaking the control chain).

Verdict: miracle, shapechange, ice assassin

Insofar as this is a voting thing, those are my votes. Insofar as it is an analysis thing, that is my analysis. It is narrowly tailored to answer OP's question.


(Note: Someone's gotta teach me more about image spells, I don't quite get how to use them.)

Image spells are basically bounded by the limits of your creativity and what your DM will let you get away with. If you make an image of an enemy too powerful to fight, many enemies will flee. If you make an image of an obstacle, enemies must (in most cases) spend an action interacting with it before they even get a save.


Unless that creature has a good fort save, anyway. But it's not like a monster worth using an 8th level slot on would have that right?

Certainly there are monsters it is bad against. But there are monsters with bad Fort saves and low Charisma. For example: the Wizard casting flensing.


Wings of Cover is Sorc 2 not Clr 2. Also no class or spell level listed for voice of the dragon.

Sor/Wiz 4, apparently.

wings of cover is 2nd level. It is a one-off defensive ability that is pretty strong, but explicitly allows your opponent the opportunity to do something else instead. wings of flurry is 4th level. It is a blasting spell that is notable for having no cap to its damage scaling, letting you combine metamagic cheese with CL cheese. The result is worse than a blasphemy equivalent in most cases, but it has a higher floor and is much lower level. That said, I don't think it rates at the level polymorph, lesser planar ally, charm monster, and celerity all live at.

[Thurbane]

My Sor/Wiz 4 comment was in reply to Voice of the Dragon.

[Xenken]

(premium posting)

What are your thoughts on the power of the "stockpile" spells, (Delicate Disk, Bloodfreeze Arrow, Sacred Item, probably more I'm not catching).

I suppose, given their high level, you have to compare them against the calling spells (since they can similarly also give you more than you put in during downtime) in which case they are much worse. Can't be most op.

But outside that direct comparison, how strong are they? Delicate Disk in particular seems like it could hang out up there, since it basically just converts downtime into more spells using money/material that you can just make with other spells.

[Mechalich]

7th: simulacrum is the obvious answer here. But I'm not entirely convinced. Unless you are doing silly things like "my spell component pouch contains pieces of advanced versions of the creatures that I want to make copies of" it is not very impressive (and if you are doing those things you should just have your planar binding'd Efreet wish for a scroll of ice assassin). A mini-me is nice, especially if you are a Red Wizard, but it is not as impressive as what you could get from planar binding, and costs XP to boot. That said, I won't argue much with the people who pick it here.


The full simulacrum setup - multiple copies of 20th level wizards, clerics, bards, and any other spellcaster you might think useful - takes works to setup (for example you can use planar binding to get ahold of bits and pieces of the relevant casters from among those who've sold their souls to the Devils), but once you've got it in place in your wizard's tower you effectively have infinite out-of-combat supply of all spells of 5th level and below, from beings who are absolutely loyal to you. Simulacrum allows you to create a Buffer Team of 10th level clerics with DMM Persist and each member of the party starts their day in the buff chair and gets a dozen-plus buffs dumped on them without compromising PC spell slots at all.

[RandomPeasant]

What are your thoughts on the power of the "stockpile" spells, (Delicate Disk, Bloodfreeze Arrow, Sacred Item, probably more I'm not catching).

I suppose, given their high level, you have to compare them against the calling spells (since they can similarly also give you more than you put in during downtime) in which case they are much worse. Can't be most op.

But outside that direct comparison, how strong are they? Delicate Disk in particular seems like it could hang out up there, since it basically just converts downtime into more spells using money/material that you can just make with other spells.

I think delicate disk is actually the worst of the lot. It takes a standard action to activate one, so it's a lot like a scroll. And scrolls can also be bought for money. It's cheaper per-unit than a scroll, but also constrained by your spell slots to charge the things. And, as you suggest, it trades off directly with planar binding. It's certainly powerful, but converting downtime into staying power is not as impressive as converting downtime into action economy. The final thing to note is that I said it takes a standard action to use them, but I'm not completely sure that's true, as it also discusses one activating when it is "broken by a falling rock". If you can convince your DM that you can chunk a bunch of disks at someone with telekinesis or whatever and have them all go off at once it becomes pretty insane.

bloodfreeze arrow is outside OP's restriction, but holy ****. I'm pretty sure whoever was writing this spell did not understand what the are doing, or that I am making an error somewhere, because it is insane but also might not work at all. So the first thing is that both the target and the material component are a "masterwork arrow or bolt". I think the implication is supposed to be that they are the same "masterwork arrow or bolt", but that doesn't work because a material component is "annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process", so if it works that way it's just a complicated way of turning a 4th level spell slot, an arrow or bolt, and a swift action into nothing. Except that the spell also says "In addition to taking normal damage from the missile, the target takes...", which makes it seem like you are also supposed to be making an attack as part of the casting. But the spell doesn't say that you make an attack, and it's target is the missile, so maybe it is a way of making missiles slightly more vulnerable to being shot by other missiles.

But what I think happens, based on a favorable reading of the mechanics, is that you destroy an arrow or bolt to empower a second arrow or bolt with bloodfreeze-y goodness. And that empowerment is an instantaneous effect. It will never go bad, and you can stack it on the same arrow or bolt as often as you want. So the entry-level cheese here is that your party has a month of downtime and the Assassin stacks this spell a hundred times on his favorite crossbow bolt and then the next BBEG takes 200d6 damage and saves a hundred times against paralysis. Except it's better than that, because as I said the spell is instantaneous and has no text indicating it is discharged on use. It's "the target takes", not "the next time you fire the arrow or bolt it deals". So what you actually do is you cast this spell several dozen times on a Morphic weapon that you turned into an arrow, and then you deal several hundred dice of damage and call for a similar number of saves on every attack you make with that weapon for the rest of the game. And then shortly after that your DM takes you aside and explains that he is making the spell into something like a ToB Boost that applies to a ranged attack, because that is the closest non-broken thing to what the spell says it does.

sacred item is strong, but fairly limited in the targets it effects. It also has a "what are you trying to do" thing where the header says it is "Will negates", but the spell text says that "On a successful save, the creature is merely shaken for the same length of time", which would be "Will partial" (and could, in the absence of the header, be read to imply that the Will save does not effect the damage). Overall, I'm not sure if it makes it to the short list for 4th level or not. I'm inclined towards not, as it seems like its overall effect is a save-or-die with sharp targeting restrictions, but under generous readings of what exactly the Will save does I could be persuaded it is good enough to make the cut.


The full simulacrum setup - multiple copies of 20th level wizards, clerics, bards, and any other spellcaster you might think useful - takes works to setup (for example you can use planar binding to get ahold of bits and pieces of the relevant casters from among those who've sold their souls to the Devils), but once you've got it in place in your wizard's tower you effectively have infinite out-of-combat supply of all spells of 5th level and below, from beings who are absolutely loyal to you. Simulacrum allows you to create a Buffer Team of 10th level clerics with DMM Persist and each member of the party starts their day in the buff chair and gets a dozen-plus buffs dumped on them without compromising PC spell slots at all.

But I could just bind up a bunch of Efreet. And, sure, they would not be under my direct personal command, but also they could emulate 8th level spells or create items for me with their wishes. What you describe is a powerful endgame, but it derives much of its power from the use of planar binding, and it is not the most powerful endgame planar binding enables. As such, I see little reason to reevaluate simulacrum on its basis.

[Harrow]

It's another case of "depends on how you read it" but there is a 0 level spell that I consider too good for its level, if not outright OP. No Light. It removes all natural light in a 20 foot radius for minutes/level. It's from 3.0, when the Darkness spell did something similar, but No Light was never updated to 3.5. By RAI it should just be a worse version of Darkness, but RAW Darkness creates shadowy illumination even where there isn't any light and No Light was never updated and so can be used as-is. Combine with darkvision and a Ring of the Darkhidden and you get a Greater Invisibility-like effect out of a 0 level slot.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I've never seen anybody use Battlemagic perception. It looked interesting but my reaction to it was "or I could just take spellcraft". Have you used it in real play? Can you give an example of the sort of situation it breaks wide open? I'm curious because I was a rare person in my circle who took Arcane Sight in a campaign where permanency was banned, on a sorcerer, as her first L3 spell. I found casual magic detection pretty useful, and the ability to notice that the washerwoman had L7 spell capability broke a few plots over the years. It worked well enough that I went with Analyze Dwoemer as her second L6 spell. (I used wall of force, I needed Disintegrate first).

Yes, Celerity is really really good. In that category also is Ruin Delver's Fortune, but celerity is better because you can protect yourself or others with any spell you can cast (like, I dunno, obscuring mist or solid fog or sleet storm or wall of force or similar spells that "just work"). The daze effect means you do lose action economy (you are trading an immediate standard now for a std/move/swift next round), but timing is everything when the encounter goes bad.

Astral Projection - some of what it does can be done with plane shift, if you have an astral tuning fork. My real issue with it though is the separation of the body from the spirit. This may be a holdover from 1st edition, but the spell just invites some enemy (or astral predator/hazard like Githyanki) to go "hm, a silver cord. Lets cut it". As written in 3.x if you avoid that hazard, what it reminds me of is "Phantom Steeds for Planar Travel". You can travel to other planes without needing a tuning fork, similar to how Phantom Steed gets you to an unknown location so you can teleport or transport via plants or whatever in future. The risk though is that the caster is the weak link. Lose the cord or just get focus fired/killed and your companions are stranded. Of course if you guys are doing L9 spells, maybe your divine caster just true rezzes you, and your party continues on without mishap after you recast the spell. But my take on this spell is it has specific drawbacks in addition to its flexibility that cancel out (similar to Gate, also quite powerful and can be used for planar transport). So while powerful, normally powerful for L9 magic. The main reason to use Astral Travel over Gate for direct transport is that Astral Travel will work even if there is a deity on the plane hostile to you personally. Which could be important if you are heading out to gank Lolth on her home dimension or similar.
Maybe it's because I use spellcasting enemies a lot, but Battlemagic Perception gets a lot of love from my players (especially if I made Ring of Spell-Battle unavailable).
Battlemagic Perception has out of combat benefits (sensing people discreetly casting spells for a long duration), makes you almost immune to ambushes (except ambushes that don't pre-buff, but those are usually not big threats anyway because they're either weak or they're inflexible monsters who lose instantly to things like Solid Fog or even Grease).
More importantly, when my party is going on the attack, every single spellcaster or UMDer who can do so uses Battlemagic Perception. Being able to counterspell a bunch of the BBEG's spells is an insane action economy advantage, and it turns "caster on caster" battles into "who can bring the biggest number of counterspellers". The existence of spells like Celerity or Time Stop makes having immediate action counterspells even more valuable in magic duels.



0th Level
1 – Ghost Sound

1st Level
4 – Grease
4 – Nerveskitter (wouldn't be OP if the already-strong casters didn't benefit so massively from not being flat-footed)
3 – Entangle
2 – Power Word Pain
2 – Summon Marked Homunculus
2 – Wall of Smoke
1 – Ice Slick
1 – Protection from Evil
1 – Protection from Good
1 – Ray of Resurgence
2nd Level
7 – Alter Self
5 – Glitterdust
3 – Luminous Armor
3 – Web
2 – Wings of Cover
2 – Wraithstrike
1 – Dark Way
3rd Level
4 – Shivering Touch
3 – Animate Dead
3 – Glibness
2 – Venomfire
1 – Battlemagic Perception
Also That Art Though

4th Level
6 – Polymorph
3 – Black Tentacles
3 – Celerity
3 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
3 – Solid Fog
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Wall of Salt
2 – Wings of Flurry
1 – Divine Power
1 – Enhance Wildshape
1 – Surge of Fortune
Also Stifle Spell

5th Level
2 – Dominate Person
2 – Magic Jar
1 – Draconic Polymorph
1 – Friend to Foe
1 – Wall of Force
1 – Unfettered Heroism

6th Level
4 – Contingency
4 – Planar Binding
1 – Eyebite
1 – Programmed Image
1 – Shalanta's Delicate Disc

7th Level
3 – Forcecage
3 – Limited Wish
3 – Simulacrum
2 – Blasphemy
1 – Amber Sarcophagus
1 – Avasculate
1 – Control Weather

8th Level
6 – Polymorph Any Object
4 – Mind Blank
2 – Greater Planar Ally
2 – Shun the Dark Chaos
1 – Greater Celerity
1 – Irresistible Dance
1 – Mass Death Ward
1 – Mass Dominate Person
1 – Moment of Prescience
1 – Simulacrum

9th Level
8 – Shapechange
4 – Gate
3 – Wish
2 – Dominate Monster
2 – Ice Assassin
2 – Mindrape
2 – Miracle
1 – Astral Projection
1 – Chain Contingency
1 – Disjunction
1 – Foresight
1 – Teleport Through Time
1 – Timestop
These are my votes. I removed everything I didn't consider OP, and even here I'm being generous with the word "OP" (for example I targeted minionmancy spells because in many campaigns they'd be super strong and disruptive, but I like that it's possible to specially build campaigns/parties taking them into account). Honestly, this isn't meant to be "which spells are strong", it should be "which spells are overpowered". Lots of so-so save-or-lose spells are mentioned in this thread when IMO they're very fair for their level.

Also RandomPeasant has nothing but good takes.

[Xenken]

4th Level
6 – Polymorph
3 – Black Tentacles
3 – Celerity
3 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
3 – Solid Fog
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Wall of Salt
2 – Wings of Flurry
1 – Call of Stone
1 – Charm Monster
1 – Consumptive Field
1 – Death Ward
1 – Dimension Door
1 – Divine Power
1 – Enhance Wildshape
1 – Fear
1 – Finger of Agony
1 – Freedom of Movement
1 – Greater Invisibility
1 – Greater Rebuke
1 – Heart of the Earth
1 – Iceweb
1 – Minor Creation
1 – Orb of Fire
1 – Orb of Acid
1 – Orb of Cold
1 – Orb of Force
1 – Phantasmal Killer
1 – Scrying
1 – Shadow Conjuration
1 – Surge of Fortune
1 – Voice of the Dragon
1 – Wall of Sand (Spell Compendium)
1 – Wall of Good


I've thought about it more, and actually I think I'd want 4 lists.

-Awesome. Fits the OG post. I'm very strict on what gets here.

-Very Good! Top end here is stuff that just barely missed the cut from the above, (Stuff like Teleport, in Peasent's example,) bottom end is basically stuff I'm still actively interested in and hyped about.

-Good. Solid, workhorse spells. Not particularly exciting to me, but if you need them you need them. Worth throwing in as general recommendation for character building stuff. Comprehend Languages, pretty medium but still decent attacks, and so on. Bottom end here is mediocre, stuff that I would basically never prep because I have better things to do but wouldn't be offended seeing on someone else.

-Bad. Reaches the point where I actively wouldn't recommend you to anyone else, even new beginners, and beyond this point I lose interest. Ideally we have *0* spells here, given the thread topic, but I have it here just in case.

(Also I think it's fine to have asterisks like *-only with metamagic cheats or *-only with downtime.)

for example, here's a quick attempt to break down everything in the quote along these lines, not ordering within tier. (sorry my *'s aren't numbered, but they're in order I promise.)


-Polymorph, Charm monster, Celerity, Enhance wild shape*, Consumptive Field*

-Wings of Flurry, Solid Fog, Friendly Fire, Iceweb*, Divine Power*, Voice of the Dragon, Surge of Fortune*, Orb of Fire, Orb of Cold, Wall of Salt, Shadow Conjuration, Dimension Door, Scrying, Minor Creation, Dalamar’s Lightning Lance*

-Freedom of Movement, Black Tentacles, Death Ward, Orb of Acid, Orb of Force, Finger of Agony, Heart of Earth, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Sand, Wall of Good, Fear, Greater Rebuke*

-Call of Stone, Phantasmal Killer

*with Aberration Wild Shape.
*I mean, the spell fails the Bag of Rats test and if you actually commit you can get a CL of **** You. Even assuming that only goes to long term spells and isn't carried directly into combat, that's gotta be worth a seat right.

*Worse for it's level than actual Web while being such direct competition that I'd hesitate to take it or recommend it for that reason.
*With alt-cost Persist. Honestly even with that I'm tempted to slide this into Good because I just don't think Hitting Stuff is all that great a way to use your slots or metamagic, but I'll reserve judgement on that for now.
*I can think of times where I'd pay a 5th level slot for a nat 20 and it'd be this good, but they're few and far between. Surge is a 5th level spell btw.
*Gotta put work into abusing the scaling though.

*I'm so close to shifting this down. It has most of Killer's problems while also not, y'know, killing the opponent. It only has the one save but again, it's close. Speaking of...

*It's not just the double save, although that is a big part of it. It's double save, Fear, Mind Affecting, SR yes, and single target at 4th level. Please do something better.

[Postmodernist]

If you're looking for a reference when making spellcasting characters, this (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_that_Fvcking_Kill_People_(3.5e_Other)) is a good place to start. I think there's a version for utility spells out there somewhere, but I don't know where it is.

I am familiar with this list, and consult it regularly. Excellent reminder for everyone looking at this thread.

[pabelfly]

I've thought about it more, and actually I think I'd want 4 lists.

Its not really necessary though - the more votes, the more people think it's a great spell. If a spell has the most votes, it's really worth looking at, and if a spell has a few votes, you should probably check it out too. And as more people respond or update their opinions and we get more data, the list becomes more worthwhile.

[Xenken]

Its not really necessary though - the more votes, the more people think it's a great spell. If a spell has the most votes, it's really worth looking at, and if a spell has a few votes, you should probably check it out too. And as more people respond or update their opinions and we get more data, the list becomes more worthwhile.

Well, "great" varies. There's clearly at least one set of lads who just want cool good spells to take for their characters, which is a notably different goal than what the OP(heh) seems to want. I think addressing those as seperate concerns is worth doing. (Although I admit any sub sorting beyond that is more for my personal convenience.)

(Relatedly, you may be underestimating how many posters update their data.)

[pabelfly]

Well, "great" varies. There's clearly at least one set of lads who just want cool good spells to take for their characters, which is a notably different goal than what the OP(heh) seems to want. I think addressing those as seperate concerns is worth doing. (Although I admit any sub sorting beyond that is more for my personal convenience.)

(Relatedly, you may be underestimating how many posters update their data.)

Well, here's a list of spells from 4th Level that you quoted earlier that have more than one vote.

6 – Polymorph
3 – Black Tentacles
3 – Celerity
3 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
3 – Solid Fog
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Wall of Salt
2 – Wings of Flurry

I'm not sure what you think but overall, that looks like a decent spell list to me.

[Xenken]

Well, here's a list of spells from 4th Level that you quoted earlier that have more than one vote.

6 – Polymorph
3 – Black Tentacles
3 – Celerity
3 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
3 – Solid Fog
2 – Friendly Fire
2 – Wall of Salt
2 – Wings of Flurry

I'm not sure what you think but overall, that looks like a decent spell list to me.

Sure. Again, though, the thread wasn't for "decent", it was for "most OP", and to not repeat the convo a little ways up, only about 2 spells here actually meet that. Which isn't to say the rest are bad or not worth discussing, but they answer a different question then what was proposed.

[pabelfly]

Sure. Again, though, the thread wasn't for "decent", it was for "most OP", and to not repeat the convo a little ways up, only about 2 spells here actually meet that. Which isn't to say the rest are bad or not worth discussing, but they answer a different question then what was proposed.

Everyone's experiences in playing are different. As for myself, I'd say that every spell on that list is OP except Wall of Salt, and I'd be willing to hear out someone that wanted to make a case for it given how good the other spells on that list are.

[RandomPeasant]

-Call of Stone, Phantasmal Killer

I disagree with calling those "bad". They're spells that hit specific defensive profiles. phantasmal killer is pretty niche, as charm monster hits a lot of the same targets. But you're definitely underrating call of stone.

call of stone, like celerity, is not a spell you rely on at 7th level. It is, indeed, incapable of killing anyone if cast at CL 7. But the spell does do something genuinely powerful: it's a way to kill people with iterative probability. If you cast it at, say, 14th level, Extended to double the duration, your target needs to make 11 Fortitude saves or they die. That's a very powerful tool at a level where you have abilities that make tactical retreats a viable option, and there's relatively little that can be done to defend against it. The target gets SR, but once the spell is on them they either have to have a dispel magic effect of some sort or make a double-digit number of saves. Not a spell I would recommend learning as a Sorcerer, but certainly something to be aware of as a Druid or Wizard.


*With alt-cost Persist. Honestly even with that I'm tempted to slide this into Good because I just don't think Hitting Stuff is all that great a way to use your slots or metamagic, but I'll reserve judgement on that for now.

divine power does the same thing that the people talking up heroes' feast are excited about. It lets you send a single spell slot to solve multiple problems through the day, which is pretty good once you are no longer tightly constrained by spell slots. Persistent buffs also synergize well with each other, as you can reasonably reach a point where you can clear any level-appropriate encounter without needing to spend additional spells. But you can do that easier with planar binding-type spells, so it doesn't really belong on a list that answers OP's question.


Sure. Again, though, the thread wasn't for "decent", it was for "most OP", and to not repeat the convo a little ways up, only about 2 spells here actually meet that. Which isn't to say the rest are bad or not worth discussing, but they answer a different question then what was proposed.

Pretty much. I'm a big fan of black tentacles. It's probably the 4th level spell I've cast the most when playing arcane spellcasters. But if your list of "most OP 4th level spells" has it over lesser planar ally or tied with celerity, that list is wrong. What it comes down to is that there's not a linear scale from "bad" to "broken". Spells are good at different things, and being abusable doesn't even necessarily translate into being good if you aren't abusing it. wall of salt is perfectly respectable as a way to break WBL, but it's absolute garbage as a combat spell (especially at a level that also contains the aforementioned black tentacles). charm monster is incredibly powerful if you use it to gather an army of minions, but is fairly mediocre if you're just using it as an in-combat save-or-die.

[pabelfly]

Ah, here's another one which, I think, is the lowest level Save-or-Die of them all: Touch of Juiblex. Ok, it's a Fort negates, SR:yes, 1d6 points of Str damage casting cost spell and it takes 4 turns to actually kill the foe (it is transformed into green slime). However, it's not [death], nor is it [mind-affecting], nor [fear], nor explicitely a [polymorph] effect, nor a petrification one...in other words, not much is immune to that.

Added.


I only posted wizard spells before, here's a few more I like

Improvisation (Brd 1): Gain floating bonus you can apply to skill checks for R/L.

Sonorous Hum (Brd 2, Cleric + Wizard 3): Concentrate on a spell for free.

Wings of Cover (Sor 2), of course. Immediate action to blank just about anything.

Mold Touch (Initiate of Nature 3): Make a patch of brown mold, the dungeon hazard, or on a person with a touch attack. If you get a little cold resistance this thing is absolutely ruthless, and the mold will sit there indefinitely, and has no material component.

Putting in my vote for Glibness (Bard 3), which has already been mentioned

Stifle Spell (Cleric 4, Wiz 4): Immediate action counterspell attempt, no fuss no muss, pretty good for its level although hardly an I-win button.

Backbiter (Wiz 1): This thing is absolutely brutal the level you get it, since it hits all nonmagical weapons. Next attack target nonmagical weapon makes (within R/L) hits its wielder instead of anyone else. Just hitting them with their weapon would be worth it against a typical low-level enemy; this negates an attack, too? Absurd.

Voice of the Dragon (Wiz 4): This isn't busted for the level, but it's sort of "Bad Glibness that wizards get too." +10 to Bluff, Diplo, and intimidate for 10 Minutes/level, and you can expend it to cast suggestion. Also it's a transmutation spell, you know, in case you banned enchantment.

Ray Deflection (Wiz 4) has come up in this thread a few times but nobody's said it's a solid spell itself. If it's a reason to not like other spells, then maybe that means you're picking it! Blank all ranged touch attacks for 1 minute/level. This thing was 3rd level until spell compendium came out, if you can believe that.

Lesser Restoration (Paladin 1, Cleric 2): There's a few obscure lists (Soldier of Light? Impure Prince? I forget) that have this as an arcane spell, so make an eternal wand. Boom. Non-casting characters no longer need to sleep, just cure your fatigue every morning.

Favor of the Martyr (Paladin 4): Gain immunity to, you know, whatever. Infamously used to cheese things that daze you, but hits anyone in medium range and lasts 1 minute/level so it's not bad even outside abuse.

Warp Destiny (Destiny Domain 6): Reroll any save with +CL, or add +CL to your AC against an attack. Usable even after you know you fail/get hit. Gives a -4 to some stuff for a round, who cares?

Slime Wave (Cleric 7, Druid 7): Shoot green slime in a 15-foot radius spread. Against a large target, this can deal 4D6 constitution damage the first round. Oh, did I not mention the slime sticks to anything it touches? So make that every round.

Clarity of Mind (Level 2-3 on obscure lists, like blackguard for some reason): +4 vs. Mind-affecting, and also blind fight for some reason? Hour/Level.

Nobody's mentioned Divine Insight (Cleric 2) yet? Hour/Level, expend before rolling to give up to +15 insight on a single skill check. One of the best skill-modifying spells this side of Glibness, and even Glibness only works on the game's second best skill.

That Art Thou (Meditation OA Domain 3): Yes, it's obscure. And good thing, because it's broken straight in half. For 1 round per level, you have access to all the senses of everything within 30 feet of you. No save, no SR. Flat +20 to search, spot and listen, you can't be flat-footed or flanked. And that's just the mechanical benefits; it's easy to ask a DM if you automatically know what square all invisible creatures are in, pinpoint ambushers, etc. etc. Not an emanation so it works through walls.

Possess (Shaman 5): This is sort of Dominate Monster for Round/Level. Yeah, you needing to leave your body behind for the duration is a drawback, but a lot of the time that doesn't matter. Possess a guard, kill another guard, kill yourself, boom, you're back. Or Possess a guard, let your party in (one of which is carrying your body), he has no memory of anything that happened while possessed.

Added


Depending on your reading, Distilled Joy (Sorc/Wiz 3) can be very useful. The spell description makes it sound like it was supposed to be one dose of ambrosia per casting, but the casting details (1 day casting time, permanent duration) instead make it look like you just cast it once, then get a does of ambrosia whenever someone meets the somewhat-vague happiness requirements. If you read it as the latter, then it's not too awfully difficult to completely negate magic item XP cost. You likely wouldn't be able to set something like that up every campaign. But, if you don't have the time or resources to produce endless ambrosia, I don't see you being able to do any serious crafting anyway. I would like to note that Pathfinder just did away with crafting XP costs entirely and crafting feats are still considered situational, so maybe infinite crafting XP isn't as big of a deal as it maybe feels like it should be.


Added


I haven't actually done a level-by-level answer of OP's question, though I have responded to a few individual points. So here goes:

0th: Nothing here is meaningfully OP. Yes, you prepare detect magic over acid splash, but that's because 1d3 damage is a joke, not because knowing if things are magic is game-breaking. There are a few tricks you can pull that are strong (gnome ACF for 0th level silent image, Eschew Materials + launch bolt, Cloudy Conjuration + caltrops), but nothing that I think you can call OP. Verdict: Nothing.

1st: Again, I don't think you can call anything here OP. Yes, color spray and sleep are good and you should cast them because they end combats. But they're only marginally better than your other picks for offensive spells to use at low levels. And that's how it is for every niche at 1st level. There are many options for good offensive spells. There are many options for good utility spells. There are many options for spells with utility over the course of a campaign. If you start calling things at this level "OP" you quickly have to eliminate a large swathe of spells. Verdict: Nothing.

2nd: I stand by my assessment that alter self is the best spell at this level, and probably the best spell for its level of any level. ray of stupidity is good, but it's not really OP, as while it OHKOs animals, most animals can be beat by a dude with the combined powers of "longbow" and "flight". It's also a little awkward to use, as it's too niche to dedicate a top-level slot to as a Wizard, let alone learn as a Sorcerer, so most characters will rarely have access to it at the levels where animals are most common. It is pretty solid as an Advanced Learning pick for a Beguiler though. wraithstrike is notable for being probably the only spell I would consider making Persistent without metamagic reducers, but I maintain that it's too build-dependent to qualify as OP. I don't think there's much else that merits discussion at this level. Verdict: alter self.

3rd: I mostly don't think combat spells are OP, particularly spells you cast in combat for a benefit in combat. But shivering touch is one of the few exceptions to that. There are a few weaknesses you'd like to mitigate (melee touch isn't where a Wizard wants to be, and you'd like to toss Maximize or at least Empower on there to make it truly reliable against a wide range of foes), but even taken purely on its own it is a 3rd level spell that can one-shot epic level enemies. That's insane. That said, you can just be immune to it, and it is entirely possible (if heavily contrived and somewhat uninteresting) to have entire adventures where the spell does exactly nothing. Still, it is an extremely powerful spell.

However, there is another contender: animate dead. animate dead is the first thing I'd consider to be true minionmancy (a spell that gives you mooks one day without needing to be cast that day), and the Cleric gets various abilities that make them well-suited to using it, primarily desecrate. It is a somewhat strange spell in that you basically never want to cast it on an adventuring day, and repeated castings rapidly hit a cap (making it somewhat more like a class feature in some respects), but it is extremely strong for its level, and even human skeletons can do work if it's properly supported, to say nothing of what you can achieve if your DM is generous with corpses.

Verdict: animate dead, shivering touch.

4th: I think this is the level with the most viable options. polymorph is the elephant in the room, and the natural choice after having picked alter self. That said, I do think it's a bit worse, relatively speaking, as the Druid now has Wild Shape (not as abusable, but hours/level duration is a big advantage) and the Cleric has divine power (again a much lower ceiling, but DMM Persist is the easiest way to gish yourself up in the game). It also has to contend with the rise of effective minionmancy.

Speaking of minionmancy, there are a lot of good options here. animate dead comes in to general use (though it's only the Dread Necromancer who has a case for using it better than the Cleric). The Cleric picks up lesser planar ally, and a 6HD outsider is nothing to sneeze at for a 7th level party. charm monster rounds things out, allowing you to build an extremely large stable of mind-controlled minions, and being harder to shut down than dominate person. These spells all have their relative strengths and weaknesses (charm monster is a SoD but has explicit counters, lesser planar ally gives up some agency over what you get, and so on), but they are all extremely powerful, and any one of them would be enough to get you a seat at the table even if you had little else going on. I do bump animate dead down some though, as it's just better to get it from the Cleric, who gets it earlier.

The outside shot is celerity. It has the best staying power of any option at this level, as you will get better form-changing than polymorph and better minionmancy than any option at this level. But cashing in a 4th level spell slot for an action gets better as you have more spell slots to use your actions on and place less value on 4th level spell slots. I probably wouldn't prepare celerity as a 7th level Wizard unless I knew I was having a boss fight that day, but I would prepare it every day by 10th level, and probably multiple times by 15th.

Verdict: polymorph, lesser planar ally, charm monster, celerity.

5th: This is a big power spike for casters in general, but I think in some ways the OP spells here are less OP than they were at 4th. draconic polymorph is strictly better than polymorph (as a self-buff spell), but by a smaller margin than the improvement from solid fog to baleful polymorph. dominate person isn't even clearly better than charm monster.

Let's start by talking about dominate person. Specifically: this spell should not exist. "You can make things your mooks, but only if they have a specific type" is not a power constraint. It is a "the DM can't use certain types of monsters" constraint. As the PCs can generally attest, humanoids are fully capable of being just as powerful as any monster, so this spell only has the power cap your DM gives it. Whether this is better than charm monster basically comes down to whether your DM is more likely to throw weak humanoids at you or interpret charmed enemies as not helping you very much.

teleport gets a lot of attention at this level. I'm normally loathe to mark non-combat spells as "OP", since there aren't really good benchmarks to compare them to, but I think in teleport's case there is a colorable argument. There are a lot of strategic mobility spells, and teleport manages to be both better and lower level than some of them. I think you could reasonably believe that teleport should be removed, and people should rely on less-general strategic movement options until greater teleport at 7th level. That said, I don't know that I feel too strongly about it.

lesser planar binding is the obvious pick. That said, it is the worst-positioned of the planar ally and planar binding lines. 6HD at 9th level is a lot worse than 6HD at 7th level, 12HD at 11th level, or 18HD at 15th level. But it is still very good.

Verdict: draconic polymorph, lesser planar binding

6th: The answer is planar binding. The backup answer is planar ally. I still maintain that anyone who says heroes' feast is flatly wrong, and the arguments and standards presented for it are neither compelling nor consistent. contingency is strong, but I'm somewhat hesitant to give it a shout when Craft Contingent Spell exists. In a core-only environment, it probably deserves a spot, but when there's a feat that does what it does but more, I'm disinclined to credit it as OP.

Verdict: planar binding, planar ally

7th: simulacrum is the obvious answer here. But I'm not entirely convinced. Unless you are doing silly things like "my spell component pouch contains pieces of advanced versions of the creatures that I want to make copies of" it is not very impressive (and if you are doing those things you should just have your planar binding'd Efreet wish for a scroll of ice assassin). A mini-me is nice, especially if you are a Red Wizard, but it is not as impressive as what you could get from planar binding, and costs XP to boot. That said, I won't argue much with the people who pick it here.

limited wish is similar. I like it a lot more than wish, as 500 XP is way less punishing than 5,000 XP, but I'd fairly often rather have a generally-useful 7th level spell that costs me 0XP, or leave a slot open if I really want utility during the day. That said, it does do a lot of stuff, and XP is a river, so I think the versatility plus the ability to abuse spells with non-slot costs (e.g. popping out major creation for "a whole bunch of lava" during combat) probably puts it over the top.

While I still disagree that they are fundamentally broken, and believe the appropriate fix is simply to have Level = CL = HD = CR consistently, it's undeniable that blasphemy and friends are incredibly powerful as the game stands. You can reasonably cheese up your caster level to the point that these spells are no-save-just-dies against any printed monster, and while there are defenses they are fairly specific things that most printed enemies factually do not have.

Verdict: blasphemy, word of chaos, dictum, holy word, limited wish

8th: Another simple level: greater planar binding, greater planar ally, and polymorph any objects are all substantially-improved versions of spells that took the top spot at their previous levels.

Verdict: greater planar binding, greater planar ally, polymorph any objects

9th: There are many powerful spells at 9th level. But as has been noted, by 9th level spells are expected to be powerful. The superlatives here are miracle (this does the things wish does but without an XP cost, it should not have less votes), shapechange (probably the single most abusable spell in the game, and the peak of the tower of rules arguments that is form-changing magic), and ice assassin (exponential power growth, or linear if you're afraid of breaking the control chain).

Verdict: miracle, shapechange, ice assassin

Insofar as this is a voting thing, those are my votes. Insofar as it is an analysis thing, that is my analysis. It is narrowly tailored to answer OP's question.

Added.


These are my votes. I removed everything I didn't consider OP, and even here I'm being generous with the word "OP" (for example I targeted minionmancy spells because in many campaigns they'd be super strong and disruptive, but I like that it's possible to specially build campaigns/parties taking them into account). Honestly, this isn't meant to be "which spells are strong", it should be "which spells are overpowered". Lots of so-so save-or-lose spells are mentioned in this thread when IMO they're very fair for their level.

Added.

Current list:

0th Level
3 – Prestidigitation
2 – Detect Magic
2 – Ghost Sound
1 – Fire Eyes
1 – Resistance

1st Level
5 – Grease
5 – Nerveskitter
4 – Entangle
4 – Silent Image
3 – Colour Spray
3 – Power Word Pain
3 – Summon Marked Homunculus
3 – Wall of Smoke
2 – Benign Transposition
2 – Conjure Ice Beast I
2 – Conviction
2 – Ice Slick
2 – Lesser Vigor
2 – Mount
2 – Protection from Evil
2 – Protection from Good
2 – Ray of Resurgence
1 – Comprehend Languages
1 – Cure Light Wounds
1 – Disguise Self
1 – Impending Stones
1 – Improvisation
1 – Obscuring Mist
1 – Resurge
1 – Seething Eyebrain
1 – Shield of Faith
1 – Sleep
1 – Unseen Servant
1 – Backbiter

2nd Level
9 – Alter Self
6 – Glitterdust
4 – Luminous Armor
4 – Web
4 – Wings of Cover
3 – Wraithstrike
2 – Binding Spittle
2 – Dark Way
2 – Guidance of the Avatar
2 – Invisibility
2 – Kelpstrand
2 – Ray of Stupidity
2 – Tyche’s Touch
1 – Benediction
1 – Blindness
1 – Cloud of Bewilderment
1 – Command Undead
1 – Create Magic Tattoo
1 – Detect Thoughts
1 – Divine Insight
1 – Elemental Dart
1 – Ghoul Touch
1 – Heroics
1 – Lam's Fingerdarts
1 – Lesser Celerity
1 – Lesser Restoration
1 – Mirror Image
1 – Phantasmal Assailants
1 – Resistance Energy
1 – Rope Trick
1 – Shadowspray
1 – Silence
1 – Sonorous Hum
1 – Whispercast

3rd Level
6 – Shivering Touch
5 – Animate Dead
5 – Glibness
3 – Venomfire
2 – Battlemagic Perception
2 – Disobedience
2 – Flame Sands
2 – Haste
2 – Heart of Water
2 – Major Image
2 – Mass Conviction
2 – Primal Instinct
2 – That art Thou
1 – Anyspell
1 – Clarity of Mind
1 – Create Lantern Archon
1 – Deep Slumber
1 – Distilled Joy
1 – Earthen Shield
1 – Flashburst
1 – Fly
1 – Great Thundercalp
1 – Heroism
1 – Mass Resist Energy
1 – Mesmerizing Glare
1 – Mold Touch
1 – Nauseating Breath
1 – Phantom Steed
1 – Protection from Energy
1 – Shadow Binding
1 – Sticks and Stones
1 – Stinking Cloud
1 – Touch of Juiblex
1 – Vertigo Field

4th Level
8 – Polymorph
5 – Celerity
4 – Black Tentacles
4 – Dalamar’s Lightning Lance
4 – Solid Fog
3 – Friendly Fire
3 – Wall of Salt
3 – Wings of Flurry
2 – Charm Monster
2 – Divine Power
2 – Surge of Fortune
2 – Stifle Spell
2 – Voice of the Dragon
1 – Call of Stone
1 – Consumptive Field
1 – Death Ward
1 – Dimension Door
1 – Enhance Wildshape
1 – Favor of the Martyr
1 – Fear
1 – Finger of Agony
1 – Freedom of Movement
1 – Greater Invisibility
1 – Greater Rebuke
1 – Heart of the Earth
1 – Iceweb
1 – Lesser Planar Ally
1 – Minor Creation
1 – Orb of Fire
1 – Orb of Acid
1 – Orb of Cold
1 – Orb of Force
1 – Phantasmal Killer
1 – Ray of Deflection
1 – Scrying
1 – Shadow Conjuration
1 – Wall of Sand (Spell Compendium)
1 – Wall of Good

5th Level
3 – Dominate Person
3 – Draconic Polymorph
3 – Magic Jar
3 – Teleport
2 – Arcane Fusion
2 – Friend to Foe
2 – Unfettered Heroism
2 – Wall of Force
1 – Baleful Polymorph
1 – Call Forth the Beast
1 – Cloudkill
1 – Darkbolt from Darkness
1 – Fabricate
1 – Flesh to Ice
1 – Hold Monster
1 – Illusory Feast
1 – Lesser Planar Binding
1 – Persistent Image
1 – Possess
1 – Shadow Evocation
1 – Stone Sphere
1 – Storm Touch
1 – Touch of Vecna
1 – True Seeing
1 – Wall of Stone
1 – Wall of Thorns
1 – Wrack

6th Level
6 – Planar Binding
5 – Contingency
4 – Heroes’ Feast
3 – Heal
2 – Energy Immunity
2 – Eyebite
2 – Freezing Glance
2 – Programmed Image
2 – Shalanta's Delicate Disc
1 – Acid Fog
1 – Anyspell
1 – Disintegrate
1 – Endless Slumber
1 – Entomb
1 – Flesh to Stone
1 – Freezing Fog
1 – Heartfreeze
1 – Lesser Planar Ally
1 – Mudslide
1 – Permanent Image
1 – Valiant Steed
1 – Warp Destiny

7th Level
5 – Limited Wish
4 – Forcecage
4 – Blasphemy
4 – Simulacrum
2 – Amber Sarcophagus
2 – Avasculate
2 – Control Weather
1 – Body of War
1 – Dictum
1 – Empyreal Ecstasy
1 – Evil Glare
1 – Finger of Death
1 – Final Rebuke
1 – Glass Strike
1 – Greater Consumptive Field
1 – Greater Shadow Conjuration
1 – Hiss of Sleep
1 – Holy Word
1 – Magnificent Mansion
1 – Necrotic Tumor
1 – Prismatic Spray
1 – Scalding Touch
1 – Slime Wave
1 – Spell Turning
1 – Unicorn Heart
1 – Vile Rebellion
1 – Word of Chaos

8th Level
8 – Polymorph Any Object
5 – Mind Blank
3 – Greater Planar Ally
3 – Shun the Dark Chaos
2 – Greater Celerity
2 – Irresistible Dance
2 – Mass Death Ward
2 – Mass Dominate Person
2 – Maze
2 – Moment of Prescience
2 – Simulacrum
2 – Trap the Soul
1 – Flensing
1 – Frostfell
1 – Greater Planar Binding
1 – Greater Shadow Evocation
1 – Mass Charm
1 – Mystic Shield
1 – Polymorph Any Object
1 – Power Word Shun
1 – Wrathful Castigation

9th Level
10 – Shapechange
5 – Gate
4 – Ice Assassin
4 – Miracle
4 – Wish
3 – Dominate Monster
3 – Mindrape
2 – Astral Projection
2 – Chain Contingency
2 – Disjunction
2 – Foresight
2 – Teleport Through Time
2 – Timestop
1 – Detonate
1 – Effulgent Epuration
1 – Frostfell
1 – Mass Hold Monster
1 – Reality Maelstrom
1 – Shades
1 – Wail of the Banshee
1 – Weird

[Xenken]

I disagree with calling those "bad". They're spells that hit specific defensive profiles. phantasmal killer is pretty niche, as charm monster hits a lot of the same targets. But you're definitely underrating call of stone.

call of stone, like celerity, is not a spell you rely on at 7th level. It is, indeed, incapable of killing anyone if cast at CL 7. But the spell does do something genuinely powerful: it's a way to kill people with iterative probability. If you cast it at, say, 14th level, Extended to double the duration, your target needs to make 11 Fortitude saves or they die. That's a very powerful tool at a level where you have abilities that make tactical retreats a viable option, and there's relatively little that can be done to defend against it. The target gets SR, but once the spell is on them they either have to have a dispel magic effect of some sort or make a double-digit number of saves. Not a spell I would recommend learning as a Sorcerer, but certainly something to be aware of as a Druid or Wizard.



Hmm. Yeah, that's fair on Call of Stone. What's your good options for a mass teleport at that level? Have we got something on a swift/immediate action, to avoid the monster's critical first turn?

You gotta sell me more on P-Killer if you want to defend it not being bad, though. What has low Fort AND Will, low to the point where you'd feel comfortable targeting both over using basically any other single target spell that only targets one, without any of the tag immunities? Are they a common enough element to pick Killer over comparable spells, even other not-all-that-great ones?

[Seward]

You gotta sell me more on P-Killer if you want to defend it not being bad, though. What has low Fort AND Will,

Same things you'd use a Shadow Conjuration Stinking Cloud on. All of the shadow magic has dual save limits, and some are fort and will. (they are of course good because of flexibility and utility, not raw power).

The one reason I've prepped Phantasmal Killer is range. On a character optimized for pretty high saves either in illusion spells or just in general, you don't need a weakness to get decent results sometimes, you just need them to not be strong in either. But most of your other "save or XXX" stoppers are close range.

So to answer your original question - a well designed archer is a pretty good target for phantasmal killer. They're often either elves with a con hit, or dump con for more dex/str because they aren't front liners. They deliberately stay out of range of your close range spells, and their will saves are utter crap. So for an action you can take out with 2/3 probability or better that ******* who is tearing chunks out of your non-tank teammates (or just stripped your mirror images and will kill you next round if you don't shut them down).

Another pretty good target is any wizard/sorcerer. They tend to dump wisdom, don't put statbumps in wisdom nor do they carry wisdom enhancement items, which means their fort, reflex and will saves tend to be similar (since they tend to start with adequate fortitude and wisdom and do buy enhancement items). So if you have high save DC's your chance of sticking a p-killer on an arcanist can be decent, over 50% at least. Which is often more likely to work given the other layered defenses such characters have if prepped for a fight than other options you might try. Those odds of success drop fairly rapidly though once you're out of the range where P-Killer is one of your highest tier or second highest tier spell slots, so if you can't heighten it, it has a short shelf life. (it does have advantage over, say, finger of death in that it isn't defeated by mirror image or displacement or ray deflection or whatever, but disadvantage that as a fear effect Greater Heroism or Hero Feast defeats it, so usually just not a good option after level 10)

Unfortunately for Phantasmal Killer, Glitterdust is nearly as good, is more reliable in spite of lower save DC, has a small area and is the same range. As long as the archer lacks a way to target you when blind, and you don't stupidly stand still. I remember one fight where my turn came around after a glitterdust and I yelled "did anybody move?". Party says "no". Proceed to gun down one of the enemies (it helped that I had woodland archer, but I did enough damage that even without it I could probably remove one enemy a turn if I knew where to shoot). Blinded arcanists lose a lot of their options but if they have an AOE option they're not out of the fight yet. So more reliable but "death is the best status condition" so keep that in mind.

I don't favor single target save/xxx spells, but I did have it on my very first 3.0 character to make it past 3rd level because our party had very few range options and we had some appropriate targets in our enemy mix, although I never prepared it past level 8 without also preparing a limited wish to lower saves. (we had trouble with a particular elder fire elemental, and it was a way to be ready if our party diplomat failed in her job. She succeeded, but my odds of just killing the damn thing with 2 actions was about 90% if she had failed).

Other than that, I've only prepped it in CRPGs, where you tend to face a lot of weaker enemies and where spell lists are very limited. I don't consider it a good spell, but there are a few edge characters good at illusions who sometimes want to stop farting around and just kill somebody.

[Thunder999]

Shadow conjured stinking cloud isn't particularly good though.

There's two real use cases for shadow spells: either you're using spells that don't care about the save because they don't target enemies or you've gone shadowcraft mage/shadowcrafter and passing the will save doesn't actually change anything.

[RandomPeasant]

phantasmal killer is a powerful effect, just one that's usually outclassed. It takes someone out of the fight completely if they fail two saves. That's worse than taking someone out of the fight if they fail one save, and charm monster exists, so it's not amazing, but it has its uses. For instance, if your DM rules unfavorably about the value of charming enemies in combat, phantasmal killer may be better. It also spares you the question of what to do after the charm wears out. It's not bad in the way burning hands is bad (where it is not doing enough to justify the spell slot and the action), but it is not great either.

The most directly powerful use-case for shadow spells is that emulating a spell lets you skip all the costs it has except the casting cost. So you can use greater shadow conjuration to mimic major creation as a standard action and choose things like "a pile of lava" or "several thousand doses of poison" as your output, dumping them right on top of an enemy. They also give you a whole bunch of flexibility especially if, as suggested, you are going Shadowcraft Mage.

[eggynack]

Dang I'm surprised to see no mention of SNA VI on here. Oread summoning is ridiculous on multiple levels. Easy earthquakes, a bunch of other spell effects, and it being on a summons grants a bunch of cool optimization routes. You can also always summon something besides an oread, I guess. Huge elementals are pretty strong. I'll also toss my support to enhance wild shape, cause that spell is sweet. It's the core of so much of the top level druid optimization. I really love heart of water and primal instincts. Super long term buffs with cool utility. Finally, I know it's both dragon mag and obviously not better than shapechange, but I never see anyone talking up putrefaction. It's just an utterly beautiful spell. Really high murder capacity combined with incredibly strong minionmancy, granting some of the best allies possible. Definitely more work than something like gate or ice assassin, but you get to command magic ghosts so it's a pretty reasonable tradeoff.

[bekeleven]

If we're bringing in dragon magazine spells we have to bring up Vile Rebellion from Dragon #300, the only official D&D spell that has a Fleetwood Mac soundtrack.

For the record, it's a fort save-or-lose, where if you succeed the fort save, you're nauseated for 1D4 rounds. If you fail, well, that's where the fun begins.

(It's not mechanically impressive on rate for a 7th level spell. However, it does a lot of interesting and/or fun unique things.)

[Chronicled]

phantasmal killer is a powerful effect, just one that's usually outclassed. It takes someone out of the fight completely if they fail two saves. That's worse than taking someone out of the fight if they fail one save, and charm monster exists, so it's not amazing, but it has its uses. For instance, if your DM rules unfavorably about the value of charming enemies in combat, phantasmal killer may be better. It also spares you the question of what to do after the charm wears out. It's not bad in the way burning hands is bad (where it is not doing enough to justify the spell slot and the action), but it is not great either.

Offering two chances to save makes for a pretty terrible spell for that level.

[Lans]

Dang I'm surprised to see no mention of SNA VI on here. Oread summoning is ridiculous on multiple levels. Easy earthquakes, a bunch of other spell effects, and it being on a summons grants a bunch of cool optimization routes. You can also always summon somethingff.

Good catch, on a related note summon monster 4 gets any mephit, I think one has simulacrum.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Offering two chances to save makes for a pretty terrible spell for that level.

I agree, anything worth casting a single-target SoD on will very likely make at least one of those saves.


Good catch, on a related note summon monster 4 gets any mephit, I think one has simulacrum.

Summoned monsters can't use SLA's that would cost XP as a spell. It's one of the rules of the summoning subschool.

Even if it did work the simulacrum would obey the mephit, not you. And the mephit disappears after a few rounds.

[Anthrowhale]

I agree, anything worth casting a single-target SoD on will very likely make at least one of those saves.
The spell 'Heartache' seems plausibly comparable. It's [mind-affecting] and requires a Will save. If the save is failed, the victim is helpless for 1 round. A partner next to the victim can then execute a coup de grace which requires a Fort save of DC 10+damage or results in death.

Looking at +/-, you see:

+Level 1 instead of 4
+Not [fear]
+Fort save likely higher than save DC since 10+weapon*(2 to 4)+stat*(2 to 4) >> 14+stat.
+Damage on Fort save success is higher: weapon*(2 to 4)+stat*(2 to 4) >> 3d6.
-Requires partner action
-Will save is lower by 3 (unless you heighten).


Using an x4 crit weapon and competent melee, there is effectively no fortitude save, leaving you with:

+Level 1 instead of 4
+Not [fear]
+No Fort save
-Requires partner action
-Will save is lower by 3 (unless you heighten).

[Fero]

Some suggestions:

Substitute Domain (2)
Call Faithfull Servants (5)
Call Nightmare (5, 3.0 book)
Streamers (5)
Suspension (4)
Shrink Item (3)
Explosive Runes (3)
Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant (8)
Lahm's Finger Darts (2, 3.0, corrupt)
Death by Thorns (7, 3.0, corrupt)
Consume Likeness (6, 3.0, Corrupt)
Draconic Polymorph (5)
Ray of the Python (3)
Energy Transformation Field (6)
Summon Marked Homonculous (1)
Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (6)

[RandomPeasant]

Dang I'm surprised to see no mention of SNA VI on here. Oread summoning is ridiculous on multiple levels. Easy earthquakes, a bunch of other spell effects, and it being on a summons grants a bunch of cool optimization routes. You can also always summon something besides an oread, I guess. Huge elementals are pretty strong. I'll also toss my support to enhance wild shape, cause that spell is sweet. It's the core of so much of the top level druid optimization. I really love heart of water and primal instincts. Super long term buffs with cool utility. Finally, I know it's both dragon mag and obviously not better than shapechange, but I never see anyone talking up putrefaction. It's just an utterly beautiful spell. Really high murder capacity combined with incredibly strong minionmancy, granting some of the best allies possible. Definitely more work than something like gate or ice assassin, but you get to command magic ghosts so it's a pretty reasonable tradeoff.

I don't think I'd call any regular summon spell OP, especially not one at the level where planar ally and planar binding live. Yes, you can turn your 6th level spell into an 8th level spell, but earthquake isn't exactly game-breaking.


Some suggestions:

Substitute Domain (2)
Call Faithfull Servants (5)
Call Nightmare (5, 3.0 book)
Streamers (5)
Suspension (4)
Shrink Item (3)
Explosive Runes (3)
Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant (8)
Lahm's Finger Darts (2, 3.0, corrupt)
Death by Thorns (7, 3.0, corrupt)
Consume Likeness (6, 3.0, Corrupt)
Draconic Polymorph (5)
Ray of the Python (3)
Energy Transformation Field (6)
Summon Marked Homonculous (1)
Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (6)

Very few of these seem like something I'd call "most OP for their level". substitute domain is nice, but unless you're doing something like worshipping a pantheon and swapping out prestige domains as a Warmage-type caster, I'm not sure it even rises to "powerful" let alone "OP". The calling spells seem worse than the equivalent planar ally/planar binding spells, as does dreaded form of the eye tyrant compared to polymorph any object. suspension is kind of neat as a no-save disable against certain types of creatures, but the creatures it works against and the creatures you can beat up with flight would seem to be a circle. Since flight doesn't require that you run up and touch the monster, and is available from a lower level, I wouldn't call it OP. finger darts is good, as is anything that does significant amounts of ability damage, and it solves one of the problems shivering touch does out of the box, but I don't see it as being as good simply because it doesn't do nearly as much damage baseline. At 3rd level or even 7th level it's not doing enough to reliably kill things while shivering touch is. death by thorns is really strong, as a multi-target SoL (though multi-target touch, which is weird), but blasphemy is a multi-target no-save-just-die at the same level. ray of the python mostly seems like a weird single-target slow, and slow is not particularly good. imbue familiar with spell ability gets you some nice action economy, but there are broken-er things to do with a 6th level spell slot.

shrink item might make it if you're able to get your hands on really good shrink targets. explosive runes has a reasonable argument for making it, because you can really nuke people, but it also makes any dispel that might hit you while you're carrying your bomb extremely dangerous. energy transformation field is definitely abusable, but the fact that it doesn't let you cheat components makes it hard enough to break that I'm not sure it makes it at planar binding's level.

[Fero]

I don't think I'd call any regular summon spell OP, especially not one at the level where planar ally and planar binding live. Yes, you can turn your 6th level spell into an 8th level spell, but earthquake isn't exactly game-breaking.



Very few of these seem like something I'd call "most OP for their level". substitute domain is nice, but unless you're doing something like worshipping a pantheon and swapping out prestige domains as a Warmage-type caster, I'm not sure it even rises to "powerful" let alone "OP". The calling spells seem worse than the equivalent planar ally/planar binding spells, as does dreaded form of the eye tyrant compared to polymorph any object. suspension is kind of neat as a no-save disable against certain types of creatures, but the creatures it works against and the creatures you can beat up with flight would seem to be a circle. Since flight doesn't require that you run up and touch the monster, and is available from a lower level, I wouldn't call it OP. finger darts is good, as is anything that does significant amounts of ability damage, and it solves one of the problems shivering touch does out of the box, but I don't see it as being as good simply because it doesn't do nearly as much damage baseline. At 3rd level or even 7th level it's not doing enough to reliably kill things while shivering touch is. death by thorns is really strong, as a multi-target SoL (though multi-target touch, which is weird), but blasphemy is a multi-target no-save-just-die at the same level. ray of the python mostly seems like a weird single-target slow, and slow is not particularly good. imbue familiar with spell ability gets you some nice action economy, but there are broken-er things to do with a 6th level spell slot.

shrink item might make it if you're able to get your hands on really good shrink targets. explosive runes has a reasonable argument for making it, because you can really nuke people, but it also makes any dispel that might hit you while you're carrying your bomb extremely dangerous. energy transformation field is definitely abusable, but the fact that it doesn't let you cheat components makes it hard enough to break that I'm not sure it makes it at planar binding's level.

Justifications follow:

Substitute Domain: 2nd level spell that significantly expands your spell list and can get you many of the other OP spells already considered.

The calling spells: in a vacume, the Planar Binding spells are probably the most OP in the game. As a result, most DMs will use RP justifications to nerf those spells into near uselesness. The calling spells i listed avoid that provlem by providing very concrete cost and benefit rules

Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant: Swift action spell that you can put on your familiar to give it Eye Rays and a very powerful anti magic cone that can wreck high level adversaries.

Finger Darts: Shivering Touch is a dragon killer . . . If you can touch the dragon. Finger Darts does the same job at range.

Ray of the Python: I concede (although I do think it is a cool spell).

Death by Thorns: Blasphemy is better if you can get your CL very high. Otherwise I think DbT is better.

Imbue Familiar: I have used this spell several times and have found it to be roughly equivalent to a 6th level time stop. It essentially lets you double your actions.

[Seward]

Shrink item is a TK support spell if not using it to drop boulders on people or something. Leaves the weapons in meatspace but able to be "attended" till ready for use. They can get their chain GMW on with no issues. Then they can be released to their 3d6+GMWx15 attacks for messing people up with only a free action command. It's only strong as a helper spell for edge conditions unless you're just assuming it would be used the same way minor creation can - dropping a heavy object suddenly and abusing falling damage.

Explosive runes is op, arbitrary size nuke when combined with dispel magic scroll (crafted by anybody else) if you have time to set it up, and yeah it has some risks but that's what expendable minions (or summons that you can communicate with, like a small air elemental) are for. But again only OP with a lot of setup and fuss and bother.

The others don't seem me OP for their spell level, imbue familiar with spell ability, for example, is often less useful than the similar cleric spell imbue with spell ability. The spells are very low level and very few, and while action economy is a big deal, burning a L6 slot on something so relatively weak seems...well...use summon monster 6 or planar binding/ally for better effects depending on what resources you want to burn and how long your time window is.

[Fero]

Shrink item is a TK support spell if not using it to drop boulders on people or something. Leaves the weapons in meatspace but able to be "attended" till ready for use. They can get their chain GMW on with no issues. Then they can be released to their 3d6+GMWx15 attacks for messing people up with only a free action command. It's only strong as a helper spell for edge conditions unless you're just assuming it would be used the same way minor creation can - dropping a heavy object suddenly and abusing falling damage.

Explosive runes is op, arbitrary size nuke when combined with dispel magic scroll (crafted by anybody else) if you have time to set it up, and yeah it has some risks but that's what expendable minions (or summons that you can communicate with, like a small air elemental) are for. But again only OP with a lot of setup and fuss and bother.

The others don't seem me OP for their spell level, imbue familiar with spell ability, for example, is often less useful than the similar cleric spell imbue with spell ability. The spells are very low level and very few, and while action economy is a big deal, burning a L6 slot on something so relatively weak seems...well...use summon monster 6 or planar binding/ally for better effects depending on what resources you want to burn and how long your time window is.

Shrink Item lasts 1 day/lvl. As such, with one spell slot, you can maintain one shrunken item per CL. This opens up a huge number of useful and powerful tricks (my favorite being the anti-anti magic hat). Granted, it may be better described as a Super Useful spell as opposed yo an IP spell as most applications are not inherently OP.

Imbue Familiar is amazing l, especially if you can boost your CL. Even at low level it can open some amazing uses such as screening your actions behind a silent image to stop countrrspells etc. The Cleric version is also good but far more restricted than Imbue Familiar.

[InvisibleBison]

Explosive runes' opness is not as open-and-shut as people generally think. The spell is silent on whether or not multiple castings can be placed on a given object, and while people generally assume that a DM would allow them to do so in an actual game I'd probably rule otherwise. Still, a DM can rein in any OP spell. A bigger problem is that you can't detonate your own explosive runes with dispel magic; the spell is quite clear that that risk only applies to "another creature" who tries to dispel or erase the runes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Shrink Item lasts 1 day/lvl. As such, with one spell slot, you can maintain one shrunken item per CL. This opens up a huge number of useful and powerful tricks (my favorite being the anti-anti magic hat). Granted, it may be better described as a Super Useful spell as opposed yo an IP spell as most applications are not inherently OP.

Imbue Familiar is amazing l, especially if you can boost your CL. Even at low level it can open some amazing uses such as screening your actions behind a silent image to stop countrrspells etc. The Cleric version is also good but far more restricted than Imbue Familiar.

Sure, it's limited to 2nd level and very few spells.
But the cleric version lets your party members benefit from personal range spells like Divine Insight (the biggest insight bonus to any skill check you can get without custom items), Lore of the Gods (up to +10 to all knowledge checks is much better on an int-based class) and Substitute Domain (for any non-clerics with fixed domains from PrCs).
Not something you prepare every day but that's still a lot of utility.

Giving your allies the ability to cast Resurgence on you or each other will also never stop being useful.

And yes, Silent Image is amazing on a familiar
Though Coure Eladrin with Deceptive Illumination get at-will Silent Image that lasts 3 rounds without concentration which is even better.


Explosive runes' opness is not as open-and-shut as people generally think. The spell is silent on whether or not multiple castings can be placed on a given object, and while people generally assume that a DM would allow them to do so in an actual game I'd probably rule otherwise. Still, a DM can rein in any OP spell. A bigger problem is that you can't detonate your own explosive runes with dispel magic; the spell is quite clear that that risk only applies to "another creature" who tries to dispel or erase the runes.
The only restriction is "less than 10lb". So by RAW you can cast Explosive Runes on a bunch of pebbles, coins, little bits of scrap paper or even individual grains of sand. Less than 10lb = valid target.
How many marbles (A&EG, 2sp) does it take to fill a 5ft square? Multiply that number with 6d6 and you know how much boom a Unseen Servant can deploy in a standard action, with zero RAW ambiguity.

The area dispel function of Dispel Magic targets any number of non-magical objects with active spells on them as long as they're in the area and have LoE, so that's not a problem either.

And while it's true that you auto.succeed on dispels against your own spells that can easily be circumvented by handing a talking familiar a minimum-CL wand of Dispel Magic and taking some UMD ranks.
That would autofail to dispel your Explosive Runes when you reach CL 15, or CL 11 with a Ring of Enduring Arcana.

[Seward]

Explosive runes' opness is not as open-and-shut as people generally think. The spell is silent on whether or not multiple castings can be placed on a given object, and while people generally assume that a DM would allow them to do so in an actual game I'd probably rule otherwise.

Huh. I always assumed little tiny leaflets, each with its own rune, dropped to scatter a bit around the target so they didn't block line of effect for the dispel. I even worked out a few delivery systems suitable for a familiar, or a summons, or a dupe/charmed person. You could use thin pieces of wood or something if you didn't want to deal with paper-scatter.

ok, you could do a minefield on a floor or wall or something, but I always imagined this tactic would be more reliable if you could deliver the leaflets.

[eggynack]

I don't think I'd call any regular summon spell OP, especially not one at the level where planar ally and planar binding live. Yes, you can turn your 6th level spell into an 8th level spell, but earthquake isn't exactly game-breaking.

I mean sure, but what else even qualifies as optimal at the point you're talking about breaking the game entirely with planar binding? You may as well just write binding into every slot above that. If you're not just breaking the game, then oreads are strong. If you are, then little else is strong.

Speaking of planar binding and ally though, one interesting question is how to conceptualize their crappy counterparts, fey ring and animate with the spirit. They're pretty clearly worse in a bunch of ways, but fey ring for a siabrie or animate for a movanic deva are objectively very powerful options. It's kinda the same conflict as above, except here the spells are better than something like SNA VI, but the comparison is even more blatant in its lopsidedness.

[RandomPeasant]

Substitute Domain: 2nd level spell that significantly expands your spell list and can get you many of the other OP spells already considered.

I don't think "this gives you access to OP spells" is itself OP.


The calling spells: in a vacume, the Planar Binding spells are probably the most OP in the game. As a result, most DMs will use RP justifications to nerf those spells into near uselesness. The calling spells i listed avoid that provlem by providing very concrete cost and benefit rules

I think that is a bad argument in this context. Yes, DMs will often adjust planar binding down somehow. That is because it is overpowered, which makes it a good answer to the question "which spells are overpowered". The thread is not "what are some good spells you should probably prepare" or "what are some ways to do really powerful things without getting slapped down by your DM". It is a narrow question, and defining it broadly makes answers less useful.


Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant: Swift action spell that you can put on your familiar to give it Eye Rays and a very powerful anti magic cone that can wreck high level adversaries.

You can cast polymorph any object before the adventure even starts. Even assuming you just get the +5 for "same kingdom", the duration is still long enough for you to prepare spells again and have enough time left to clear through a day's worth of encounters, or long enough to have it last all day if you do cast it that day.


Finger Darts: Shivering Touch is a dragon killer . . . If you can touch the dragon. Finger Darts does the same job at range.

Except not really. shivering touch comes out swinging at 5th level with a high enough average DEX damage to kill a great wyrm red dragon. finger darts doesn't hit that until CL 10.


Explosive runes' opness is not as open-and-shut as people generally think. The spell is silent on whether or not multiple castings can be placed on a given object, and while people generally assume that a DM would allow them to do so in an actual game I'd probably rule otherwise. Still, a DM can rein in any OP spell. A bigger problem is that you can't detonate your own explosive runes with dispel magic; the spell is quite clear that that risk only applies to "another creature" who tries to dispel or erase the runes.

Most parties will have a second caster that you can one-two combo with, and you can always throw a loose-leaf folder bomb rather than a book bomb. In my view, the greater risk of using explosive runes-based nukes is that it turns dispel magic into a no-save-just-lose spell against you, which seems not great.


I mean sure, but what else even qualifies as optimal at the point you're talking about breaking the game entirely with planar binding? You may as well just write binding into every slot above that. If you're not just breaking the game, then oreads are strong. If you are, then little else is strong.

Again, yes, I agree that there are not very many spells that meet the standard of "as OP as planar binding". But that is the standard OP is asking for. And I don't think it's true that nothing at higher levels is better than planar binding. greater planar binding is, of course, strictly better, and shapechange has abuses planar binding doesn't. You might be able to make the argument that nothing at 7th level is better, but I think the fact that blasphemy-type spells combine with a variety of easily-accessible CL boosters to no-save kill virtually anything is at least distinct from planar binding. If you throw your army of demons at something, they get to roll dice, and if those dice come up favorably enough, they might not die. CL 80 blasphemy kills anything that is not immune, no questions asked and no dice rolled.

[Dimers]

Again, yes, I agree that there are not very many spells that meet the standard of "as OP as planar binding". But that is the standard OP is asking for.

Thurbane clarified that he's asking not for the single most OP spell of each level, but for multiple spells that are OP for their level. So it's reasonable to provide answers that are less powerful than planar binding but still overpowered.

[RandomPeasant]

Thurbane clarified that he's asking not for the single most OP spell of each level, but for multiple spells that are OP for their level. So it's reasonable to provide answers that are less powerful than planar binding but still overpowered.

I didn't say that planar binding was the only answer at its level. But if you're going to make the argument that a spell fits into the band of the most powerful spells at a level that includes planar binding, it needs to be a lot better than summon nature's ally VI. You want to make an argument for delicate disk or energy transformation field? Sure, that could be reasonable. But "I can cash in a 6th level spell for castings of a modestly good 8th level spell" is just not in that ballpark.

[Fero]

I didn't say that planar binding was the only answer at its level. But if you're going to make the argument that a spell fits into the band of the most powerful spells at a level that includes planar binding, it needs to be a lot better than summon nature's ally VI. You want to make an argument for delicate disk or energy transformation field? Sure, that could be reasonable. But "I can cash in a 6th level spell for castings of a modestly good 8th level spell" is just not in that ballpark.

Where do you define the lines of the ballpark? It would seem to me that a 6th level spell that casts an 8th level spell would be the very definition of over powered.

[eggynack]

Again, yes, I agree that there are not very many spells that meet the standard of "as OP as planar binding". But that is the standard OP is asking for. And I don't think it's true that nothing at higher levels is better than planar binding. greater planar binding is, of course, strictly better, and shapechange has abuses planar binding doesn't. You might be able to make the argument that nothing at 7th level is better, but I think the fact that blasphemy-type spells combine with a variety of easily-accessible CL boosters to no-save kill virtually anything is at least distinct from planar binding. If you throw your army of demons at something, they get to roll dice, and if those dice come up favorably enough, they might not die. CL 80 blasphemy kills anything that is not immune, no questions asked and no dice rolled.
The big thing planar binding does is wish farming, which is doable without the greater version and would seem to make something on the level of blasphemy rather redundant. Cause, y'know, you have infinite wishes. I think you underestimate how pointless this conversation is if we really want to go optimal with it. Notably, the main weakness of the whole fey ring thing is that I think the limited HD on a siabrie makes wish farming off limits. Otherwise I'm skeptical you could do that much better with binding or ally. Anyways, earthquakes are neat. Doubt they're as good as wishing infinity times, but still pretty neat.

[Fero]

As an aside, Eggynack, your druid handbook is AMAZING!

[RSGA]

The only restriction is "less than 10lb". So by RAW you can cast Explosive Runes on a bunch of pebbles, coins, little bits of scrap paper or even individual grains of sand. Less than 10lb = valid target.
How many marbles (A&EG, 2sp) does it take to fill a 5ft square? Multiply that number with 6d6 and you know how much boom a Unseen Servant can deploy in a standard action, with zero RAW ambiguity.

The area dispel function of Dispel Magic targets any number of non-magical objects with active spells on them as long as they're in the area and have LoE, so that's not a problem either.

And while it's true that you auto.succeed on dispels against your own spells that can easily be circumvented by handing a talking familiar a minimum-CL wand of Dispel Magic and taking some UMD ranks.
That would autofail to dispel your Explosive Runes when you reach CL 15, or CL 11 with a Ring of Enduring Arcana.

Technically the spell's text says that the object needs to bear written information like a book, map, or scroll. Well, other way around, it gives those three examples and then says or other similar object bearing written information, so normal marbles, counts, and too small bits of paper would be out, as would grains of sand unless you've got a GM being permissive.

[RandomPeasant]

Where do you define the lines of the ballpark? It would seem to me that a 6th level spell that casts an 8th level spell would be the very definition of over powered.

Do you think it would break the game if earthquake was just a 6th level spell? I certainly don't.


The big thing planar binding does is wish farming, which is doable without the greater version and would seem to make something on the level of blasphemy rather redundant. Cause, y'know, you have infinite wishes.

The original infinite wish build (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Bu ild)) was presenting alongside one that used blasphemy. The spell really is that good, because it is one of the only things that is a true "I Win" button. With the exception of some narrow categories of defense (which few printed monsters have at all, and none have to a degree that would stand up to The Word), the spell just kills people. No dice, no fuss, you use it and the other guy falls over.

[Bohandas]

Level 1 most OP from a simulationist perspective, Scholar's Touch. This spell would completely transform your life (and, if somebody thought to put it in an at will item, all of society).

Most OP level 1 spell from a wargaming perspective, probably magic missile, since it straight up always hits.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Technically the spell's text says that the object needs to bear written information like a book, map, or scroll. Well, other way around, it gives those three examples and then says or other similar object bearing written information, so normal marbles, counts, and too small bits of paper would be out, as would grains of sand unless you've got a GM being permissive.

Complete Arcane has rules for scribing spells on sling bullets or finger bones. So there's precedent for something the size of a marble.
Anything can "bear written information" as long as it's big enough to write on.

[RandomPeasant]

It's also really not a big deal either way. Maybe you can't cast it on marbles. But you can assuredly cast it on paper. So just cast it on two hundred separate sheets of paper, stick them in a bag, and now you have something that does enough damage to down the tarrasque if you roll a 1 on every single die. Whether you need to cast it on something vaguely book-like or not, it's pretty easy to get enough vaguely book-like things together to carry however many castings you need.

[eggynack]

The original infinite wish build (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Bu ild)) was presenting alongside one that used blasphemy. The spell really is that good, because it is one of the only things that is a true "I Win" button. With the exception of some narrow categories of defense (which few printed monsters have at all, and none have to a degree that would stand up to The Word), the spell just kills people. No dice, no fuss, you use it and the other guy falls over.
Really feel like one of those strats has stood the test of time better than the other. It's infinite wishes, y'know? Is really big blasphemy really impossible to replicate with infinite wishes? Maybe not directly, but in terms of doing the same kindsa stuff. I dunno, at the end of the day I guess I just find this a bit boring as an approach. The gamebreaking ultracombos are ultimately a bit self similar, and folks know about them, so the idea that it'd preclude talking up the noble oread feels like it leaves a lot of cool stuff on the table. Just becomes a race to the wish loop.

Anyways, I am continuously undecided on whether the classic Olidamarra's bard spell would qualify according to the rules in the OP. Probably not, cause you need an initiate feat, and also it's out of the way in dragon, but it's cool and I appreciate it. Also wildly borked, enough to be good as the main gain of taking a whole feat. It's very strong if you're already doing bard stuff, like if you're a wizard, but it's absolutely wild if you're not, which is definitely the case for druids and probably somewhat for clerics too.

[Thunder999]

Most parties will have a second caster that you can one-two combo with, and you can always throw a loose-leaf folder bomb rather than a book bomb. In my view, the greater risk of using explosive runes-based nukes is that it turns dispel magic into a no-save-just-lose spell against you, which seems not great.


Just shove the book in of doom in a bag until it's time to use it, total cover means dispel magic can't target it.


Level 1 most OP from a simulationist perspective, Scholar's Touch. This spell would completely transform your life (and, if somebody thought to put it in an at will item, all of society).

Most OP level 1 spell from a wargaming perspective, probably magic missile, since it straight up always hits.

I feel like there's more useful things than reading fast even for pure RP/worldbuilding.

As for magic missile, just no. A 1st level wizard with 14 con will always survive a 1st level magic missile, that's not exactly powerful, and it's only reliably in so far as it requires either a specific spell or magic item to block it, but it's never going to be a big deal.

[Venger]

It's SR:Yes. It's not overpowered.

[Seward]

As for magic missile, just no. A 1st level wizard with 14 con will always survive a 1st level magic missile, that's not exactly powerful, and it's only reliably in so far as it requires either a specific spell or magic item to block it, but it's never going to be a big deal.

Agreed. It is a terrific spell for finishing off a creature with a sliver of health, or maybe helping take down something with very high AC for its level but SR=yes and damage that isn't consequential at any level without designing your whole build around the spell keeps it in the utility category. Something to take an enemy out of the fight without burning a more important resource, but doing it very reliably so your action spent on a low level spell isn't wasted.