Frenzy Changes?

[Speely]

Ok, so Berserkers are a pretty contentious subclass since Exhaustion is brutal, and the benefits kinda don't outweigh that for some players. This is very campaign-variant, of course, but still. It's a thing.

So let me present a couple alternatives for those who want to go all in but not be crippled for the rest of the session:

1) Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can spend one Hit Die to go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, you must roll your spent Hit Die. If you roll less than the amount of times you've Raged since your last Long Rest, you suffer one level of Exhaustion.

OR

2) Berserkers are gone. Any Barbarian can Frenzy (as per the above change) as a base class feature at level 1. Just make it a feature of Rage. We are all extra here.

OR

3) Either option above, but do away with the Exhaustion roll because spending HD on a Barb is kinda heavy.

Thoughts? I'd love your input on this because I am pretty bad at considering all implications for crunchy systems like 5E's, but at it's core I like this as a bit of Barbarian love. Feel free to twist it up and gut it, even.

I like option 2 the most, but I am open to criticism (obv, else I would not have posted this here.) I realize this would just overall buff Barbs in a pretty major way, but I am kinda ok with that, I think?

[Kane0]

Berserkers aren't that bad past level 3, but what i like to do is merge it with the other substandard subclass, the battlerager, with heavy armor raging thrown in for good measure.

Level 3: Juggernaut
You can affix spikes to any armor you wear during a short rest. When a creature attempts to grapple you they take 1d4 piercing damage, and while raging you can use your bonus action to attack or shove a creature using the spikes, both of which deal 1d4 + Strength bonus damage on a hit or successful grapple.
In addition, you gain proficiency in heavy armor and can make use of your Barbarian features unhindered in heavy armor.

Level 6: Mindless Rage
If you fail a saving throw against being Charmed or Frightened you can expend one use of your Rage ability as a reaction to instead succeed on the saving throw.
In addition, you regain one expended use of your Rage ability when you finish a short rest.

Level 10: Menacing Presence
As a bonus action you can attempt an Intimidation check against one creature that you can see, opposed by their Insight. If you succeed the creature becomes frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
This effect ends if you end your turn out of line of sight or more than 120 feet away from the creature. If the creature succeeds on its Insight check you cannot use this feature on that creature again until you finish a long rest.
In addition, your armor spikes are treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance and immunity.

level 14: Retaliation
When a creature hits you with a melee attack you can use your reaction to make an attack or grapple attempt against the attacking creature using your armor spikes.

[Tanarii]

3) Either option above, but do away with the Exhaustion roll because spending HD on a Barb is kinda heavy.

My first thought was spending HD isn't a serious resource cost for a mid level (Tier 2) Barbarian. But it would kind of balance out I suppose. Longer adventuring days are when you'd most want to use the HD for healing, and you'd want the most rages. So that'd put them nicely in contention.

[Witty Username]

I would just make frenzy part of the berserker rage, no additional cost. I don't think it would hurt anything and the other subclasses would still do pretty well in their own stuff.

[Quietus]

I would just make frenzy part of the berserker rage, no additional cost. I don't think it would hurt anything and the other subclasses would still do pretty well in their own stuff.

This is exactly what I do/what I recommend. If you feel there has to be a cost, then tie it to Reckless Attack - any time you use Reckless while raging, you can make that bonus action attack. Really leans into the "frenzy" aspect, still gives the inherent cost/benefit.

[Speely]

I would just make frenzy part of the berserker rage, no additional cost. I don't think it would hurt anything and the other subclasses would still do pretty well in their own stuff.

A far more elegant solution. I like it. Like you suggest, the other subclasses have great benefits already.

[sithlordnergal]

Just remove the exhaustion, no additional costs or resource investments. Look at the Beast Barbarian, they get a free attack that isn't even a Bonus Action. Every other Barbarian gets their special 3rd level Rage ability for free except the Berserker. There's no need to give the Berserker an ability that costs Hit Dice or gives them levels of Exhaustion.

[sithlordnergal]

My first thought was spending HD isn't a serious resource cost for a mid level (Tier 2) Barbarian. But it would kind of balance out I suppose. Longer adventuring days are when you'd most want to use the HD for healing, and you'd want the most rages. So that'd put them nicely in contention.

Mmmm, keep in mind, Long Rests only restore half of your spent Hit Dice, so for a one off its not bad, but you could pretty easily run out of HD if you're in an adventure for the long haul.

[Unoriginal]

I think WotC will likely make Frenzy a "X+proficiency bonus per long rest" feature when they update the class for 5.5.

[Dr.Samurai]

If an extra attack as a bonus action for your level 3 feature is better than the extra attack as a bonus action provided by Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Crossbow Expert, any number of summon spells, the Beast Master's pet, the Battle Smith's pet, the Battlerager's spiked armor attack, any of the resource requiring attacks like Flurry of Blows or Unleash Incarnation... then I am okay with that.

It's perfectly fine for the Frenzied Berserker to be at the top of that list. Someone has to be, why not the Berserker?

In my opinion, Exhaustion is not needed. Let them get an extra attack as a bonus action when they Rage. It's strong, but that's the point.

[Quietus]

If an extra attack as a bonus action for your level 3 feature is better than the extra attack as a bonus action provided by Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Crossbow Expert, any number of summon spells, the Beast Master's pet, the Battle Smith's pet, the Battlerager's spiked armor attack, any of the resource requiring attacks like Flurry of Blows or Unleash Incarnation... then I am okay with that.

It's perfectly fine for the Frenzied Berserker to be at the top of that list. Someone has to be, why not the Berserker?

In my opinion, Exhaustion is not needed. Let them get an extra attack as a bonus action when they Rage. It's strong, but that's the point.

That's largely been my consideration. Sure, it means Frenzy barb might want fewer of those feats... maybe. They may still want GWM. But to my mind, they were clearly trying to set up totem warrior (bear) as the defensive barbarian, and frenzy as the offensive one. Giving frenzy their bonus action attack for free just brings them truly to the forefront in that. Barbarians don't get much for the other two pillars, let them shine in combat.

Besides, with the free bonus action attack they now start to outpace zealot barbarians for damage output at certain points, and I think that's reasonable. Running things RAW, I would take zealot over frenzy every time if I wanted to do damage.

[Unoriginal]

If an extra attack as a bonus action for your level 3 feature is better than the extra attack as a bonus action provided by Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Crossbow Expert, any number of summon spells, the Beast Master's pet, the Battle Smith's pet, the Battlerager's spiked armor attack, any of the resource requiring attacks like Flurry of Blows or Unleash Incarnation... then I am okay with that.

It's perfectly fine for the Frenzied Berserker to be at the top of that list. Someone has to be, why not the Berserker?

In my opinion, Exhaustion is not needed. Let them get an extra attack as a bonus action when they Rage. It's strong, but that's the point.

And the Beast Barbarian, who gets an extra attack better than a bonus action attack if they select Claws for this specific Rage as well as having two additional options to choose from, shows that it's certainly not a problem.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I agree with the "just let them do it, no exhaustion" thing. I used to be in a more restrictive "one free use per LR, exhaustion after that" camp, but have since decided that it just doesn't matter enough to worry about.

[heavyfuel]

The whole shebang with rolling the HD is extremely clunky, forcing players to count rounds on something you usually don't have to. Plus, there's still a decent risk of getting Exhaustion, and no special way of removing it, so you'll still end up with players only Frenzying if they think that combat is the last combat before a Long Rest.

If you wish to change Frenzy, I'll say this is not the way to go.

My personal houserule is that Berserkers heal 1 Exhaustion every Short Rest. It's not ideal, but it works. Maybe I'll change it to "Berserkers diminish their current Exhaustion level by a number equal to their Proficiency bonus, to a minimum of no Exhaustion". Effectively granting them PB/day free uses of Frenzy

[Anonymouswizard]

I think WotC will likely make Frenzy a "X+proficiency bonus per long rest" feature when they update the class for 5.5.

I agree with this, and I wouldn't be surprised if Exhaustion gets quietly pushed to the optional rules. But honestly even Proficiency Bonus is so close to Rages/day that at that point it might as well just be automatic.

Honestly I'd be tempted to instead give Berserkers a feature where they reduce Exhaustion on Short Rests, but I admit that just making Frenzy free is probably balanced enough. Although it would be amusing to see coffeelocks try to nab such a feature. The Insomniac Sorcerer King! His pecs are incredible, who can defeat him! Or however those thread titles went.

[Hal]

My preferred solution is to remove Exhaustion and just use the "end of Haste" consequences (can't move or take actions until after next turn).

I think that is appropriately "You are worn out from this" without overly punishing you.

[sithlordnergal]

My preferred solution is to remove Exhaustion and just use the "end of Haste" consequences (can't move or take actions until after next turn).

I think that is appropriately "You are worn out from this" without overly punishing you.

But does there need to be any consequences? I mean, technically a level 5 Beast Barbarian can make 4 attacks every round if they take the claws and have a way to make a Bonus Action attack: For example, you could take Polearm Master and use a Glaive as your weapon.

The rules already state you can let go of a two-handed weapon without dropping it, so you could make one attack with the Glaive, one attack with your Claws, a third attack with your Claws, and a 4th attack with PAM.

Give that exists and Frenzy only gives you a single Bonus Action attack, I don't think it needs any form of penalty.

[stoutstien]

My version
3rd lv- move retaliation here. Feels better at low levels when rages are fewer and reactions are less crowded.

Lv 6- Mindless rage- same as printed.

Lv 10- intimating presence- change to bonus action for both initial and follow up attempts. Change save DC to be equal to your barbarian level.

Lv 14- unrelenting might- once per turn when you hit with a melee attack you can choose to deal max damage instead of rolling. The target must also make a Con save (8+proficiency bonus+ strength modifier). On a falled save they have disadvantage on the next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw they make.

I turned them into the subclass that had the least reliance on rage to function with one mindless needing it up to work.

[kazaryu]

And the Beast Barbarian, who gets an extra attack better than a bonus action attack if they select Claws for this specific Rage as well as having two additional options to choose from, shows that it's certainly not a problem.

to be fair, the beast barbarian extra attack is somewhat less damage than the berserker. im not saying its a problem, just pointing out that they're not a perfect comparison.

[JonBeowulf]

My table, the first one following a long rest is free. I also have a house rule that a level of exhaustion can be removed during a short rest by burning a HD. Doing this doesn't allow burning HD to recover hp. I may change it to also allow burning 1 HD for hp... no one's complained so I guess they feel it's balanced.

I don't allow any "we take X short rests in a row" nonsense.