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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next I was bored, so I rewrote the entire multiclassing system PEACH



Jervis
2022-05-24, 11:36 PM
Multiclassing as a system is, if I'm being honest, a mess. It's elegant yes but I have my issues. So many issues in fact that I basically rebuilt it based on 2nd edition rules. First, let me say, this is not play tested and is abusable. I would like to test this out in actual play given a chance but I would want to find a group of minmaxers who want to break it to pieces over the course of 11 levels minimum to see its far reaching implications. That said it stays true to the idea i was working towards, so there's that. Regardless, if you like this, hate this, want to change this, or just have general comments to make or insults to fling at me, let me know!


Variant: Old-School Multiclassing

This system was built to emulate the feel of 2nd edition dnd's dual-classing system, the system which went on to inspire 3rd and eventually 5th editions multiclassing system. These rules are best used with long adventuring days which tax resources, perhaps even with gritty realism rules requiring extended rests to recover daily resources.

How it Works






Level
XP
Prof
ASI


1
0-500 x L2
+2



2
300
+2



3
900
+2



4
2,700
+2
Ability Score Improvement


5
6,500
+3



6
14,000
+3



7
23,000
+3



8
34,000
+3
Ability Score Improvement


9
48,000
+4



10
64,000
+4



11
85,000
+4



12
100,000
+4
Ability Score Improvement


13
120,000
+5



14
140,000
+5



15
165,000
+5



16
195,000
+5
Ability Score Improvement


17
225,000
+6



18
265,000
+6



19
305,000
+6
Ability Score Improvement


20
355,000
+6






Traditional multiclassing rules require that a character essentially begin from square 1 of another class and gain abilities from the bottom up while still requiring the same effort it would take to gain another level in a class they've been training in for a very long time. This makes choices like multiclassing for character and plot based reasons very hard and harmful to a character's overall abilities. Under these rules traditional multiclassing and character level based mechanics are removed, replaced, or otherwise modified. At any point a character may choose to begin training in another class. This is difficult and time consuming, usually taking self teaching or training under a master, and cannot usually be done under a situation where the character is in immediate danger. The exact amount of time required is dependent on the DM, but this can generally be done with any decent amount of downtime.

XP Totals, Tracking and Cost
In this system the amount of XP a character has is tracked by class and not by total character level. Whenever a character gains XP, they can allocate that XP to any class they have at least 1 level in. Additionally the amount of XP needed to gain a level in a class is determined by that character's level in that class, not by their total class level. For example a 8th level Wizard/ 1st level Cleric, would only need 300 XP to gain another level of cleric.

To gain a level in a new class, a character must decrease their XP total in another class, usually their only existing class. This XP cost is equal to 500 x their current number of classes squared. For example a character with 5 levels in fighter is considering gaining levels in rogue, they must take time training and learning which decreases the amount of XP they have in fighter. If this cost in XP would lower the amount of XP they have in fighter below the amount needed to reach level 5, they cannot yet gain a level in rogue. However, they can allocate XP towards the cost needed to gain their first level of rogue next time they gain XP. After the training is done and the XP has been allocated, the character gains a level in rogue.

In addition to the XP cost, a character must have the minimum abilities scores needed to gain levels in their new class as per standard multiclassing rules.

Proficiencies, Hit Dice, & HP
Once a character gains a level in a class using these rules, they gain any proficiencies they would have gained from taking a level in that class with standard multiclassing rules.

Using the rules a character must keep track of how much HP they gained at each level and at what level they gained their hit dice at. If the max HP they would gain from taking a level in a class through this method is higher than the max HP they actually gained at that level, their maximum hit points increases by the difference. This only takes they highest amount of hit points gained at each class level into account. For example Wizlar the Wizard has a d6 hit die at 1st level, meaning he gains 6 hit points from his level in wizard. He later gains a level in fighter, meaning his maximum hit points increased by 4 because he would have gained more hit points as a 1st level fighter. If he later gains a level in barbarian, his maximum hit points increase by 2. Likewise his d6 hit dice from level 1 changes to a d10, and later a d12. This continues for each level he gains in classes with a better hit dice than his wizard d6. If he rolls his hit dice to determine how many hit points he gains, then he must keep track of what he rolled at each level. If he takes the average then he simply adds the difference between averages.

Proficiency Bonus, Ability Score Improvements, and Spellcasting
A character calculates their proficiency bonus and number of spell slots per day based on their highest applicable class level only. For example is Wizlord the 9th level paladin/8th level wizard/1st level sorcerer would have the spell slots of a 8th level wizard and a +4 proficiency bonus. He would have the spells known of a 1st level sorcerer and could only select spells that a 1st level sorcerer could select as his sorcerer spells known. Hw could also prepare paladin spells as a 9th level paladin and a 8th level wizard, choosing spells from their lists appropriately. Any feature that uses a character's total level only takes their highest class level into account.

A character can only gain a ability score improvement from a class level once. So Wizlord would only gain two total ability score improvements despite his experience.

Other Class Features
In general outside of the exceptions listed, a character gains all benefits of gaining their new class levels.

Amechra
2022-05-26, 10:50 AM
So... why base anything off the absolutely garbage dual classing rules that I've never heard anyone say nice things about, and not the 2e multi class rules, which were generally much more straightforward (i.e. pick two classes and split your XP between the two of them evenly)?

EDIT: I crunched a few numbers, and that would basically work like this if you used the normal 5e XP table:


From 2nd to 6th level, you'd be one level behind.
From 7th to 9th, you'd be two levels behind.
From 10th to 12th you'd be three levels behind.
From 13th to 14th, you'd be four levels behind.
From 15th to 20th, you'd be five levels behind.

Jervis
2022-05-26, 12:40 PM
So... why base anything off the absolutely garbage dual classing rules that I've never heard anyone say nice things about, and not the 2e multi class rules, which were generally much more straightforward (i.e. pick two classes and split your XP between the two of them evenly)?

EDIT: I crunched a few numbers, and that would basically work like this if you used the normal 5e XP table:


From 2nd to 6th level, you'd be one level behind.
From 7th to 9th, you'd be two levels behind.
From 10th to 12th you'd be three levels behind.
From 13th to 14th, you'd be four levels behind.
From 15th to 20th, you'd be five levels behind.


TBH I mostly did it because 2e multiclassing is basically just gestalt with a XP penalty. You can more or less port that into 5e with no changes.

Greywander
2022-05-26, 07:17 PM
So this is actually quite similar to a system I've proposed before (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636472-Gestalt-esque-Multiclassing-System). My version was actually an attempt to "tone down" gestalt characters by making them spend XP to get their "extra" levels, which naturally lead into a hybridization between gestalt and multiclassing.

Here's a quick summary of my version:

Only your highest level in a single class counts towards your character level.
This means that the XP cost to level up does not increase if you level up a different class.
This also means that proficiency bonus, HP, and hit dice don't increase (not normally, anyway).
Your "extra" levels are handled using a rule set I wrote up for gestalt characters.

As for the gestalt character rules, they can also be boiled down:

You can't have more hit dice than your character level. "Extra" hit dice go into a hit dice bank. You can swap a smaller hit die with a larger one from your bank at any time.
When you swap out a hit die with one from your bank, you gain +1 max HP per die step increase. This normalizes the average HP, making it not matter which order you took your class levels.
Caster level adds up all your caster class levels, but can't exceed 20. This means a wizard 9 / cleric 9 will have 9th level slots, but only 5th level spells.
Everything else is handled as normal, e.g. you gain multiclass proficiencies, class features, and class ASIs as normal.

Initially, I thought your system had a weakness that mine had, but it seems I misread your rules on the first pass. I thought you had written that it cost 500 * (your level squared) XP to dip into a new class, making it only cost 500 XP per class if you dipped at 1st level. Rereading it, I now see that it's actually 500 * (your number of classes squared) XP, which makes a lot more sense. Otherwise, you would be able to dip into every class at 1st level for relatively cheap. It would set you back early on, but you'd barely notice the XP hit later. My system initially had such a flaw, and I fixed it by limiting you to a number of classes equal to your proficiency bonus (until 17th level, when the limit is lifted entirely).

Another houserule I use is that you can spend epic boons for more class levels, which, again, are treated as gestalt levels.

It seems our two systems have a lot of similarities:

Both allow you to raise every class to 20... eventually. In practice, the campaign will be over long before then.
Both allow you to stay single classed to reach 20 sooner.
Both make a single classed character identical to vanilla.
Both make it relatively cheap to dip into a second class.
Both make it costly to dip into many classes, or to raise a second class to 20.
Both use your highest level in a single class to determine your character level and all associated attributes (HP, proficiency bonus, etc.).
Both allow a way to "replace" smaller hit dice with larger ones, and to increase HP correspondingly.

However, the two are not identical:

Yours scales the XP cost to level according to your level in that class. Mine scales according to your overall character level.
Yours gives a fixed cost to start a new class that increases with each additional class. Mine forces you to wait to take more classes until higher levels when the XP cost is greater.
Yours allows rerolling HP, making it trend toward the upper limit of rolled HP. Mine focuses on maintaining the same average HP regardless of the order you take your class levels.
Yours limits a character's caster level to the highest caster level attained by a single class. Mine optionally caps caster level at your character level, but defaults to stacking up to 20.
Yours moves ASIs to character features that you only gain once at specific levels. Mine allows you to gain ASIs from each class.

I find it really interesting just how similar our two systems are, but the differences might be even more interesting. You may notice I put considerable effort in my system into making it so that it doesn't matter what order you take your class levels. For example, every character will eventually end up with the same average HP as a barbarian, with the only difference depending on what class they started as at 1st level. However, my system very much does care when you take those levels. If you wait to multiclass until later, you'll be paying a premium in XP, so you're encouraged to dip early and often or not at all. Your system, on the other hand, doesn't care at all when multiclassing happens, as the cost to dip is solely dependent on how many classes you currently have, and the cost to level up that class depends only on the class. So whether you dip at 1 or 20, it will cost the same.

You know, I think I do like that the same XP budget will get you the same number of class levels, no matter when you decide to take them. My only issue is that XP will be easier to come by at higher levels, so you could very well jump multiple levels per encounter if you dip at a higher level. My system at least offers a choice between rushing to 20 early in order to benefit from having more HP and a higher proficiency bonus vs. dipping in order to gain as many class features as possible. With your system, it's better to stay single classed in order to become stronger, then dip into another class later on when XP is easier to come by. But is that a bug, or a feature? YMMV.

I think there's a lot we can learn from each other's systems, and I will likely be copying some things from your system into mine. Hopefully you find something useful to take from my system to use in yours.

Jervis
2022-05-26, 11:58 PM
Interesting. I like seeing two different takes on a similar system. I’ll be sure to look over your take on it some more and compare math. Thanks for the analysis