What am I missing with Clerics here?

[sithlordnergal]

So, I'm making this in response to some conversations both online and off, but what am I missing when it comes to Clerics? I have experience with the class, I've played a fair number of Clerics in an effort to know how each class works. And every single time I have been less than impressed with it. I've found their spell lists suck, their class abilities subpar, and their subclasses unimpressive. This includes even the vaunted Twilight Cleric, which everyone claims "breaks the game". All I see on it is the ability to give their party Darkvision, which isn't exactly a big deal since nearly every race has it, and you want bright light anyway to avoid disadvantage on perception checks, and their Channel Divinity which is strong, but is also a pretty limited short rest resource since you can only use it once or twice per short rest until level 18, which nets you three uses.

As far as I've been able to experience in play, as long as you have a Paladin, Bard, or Druid, not even all three, just one of them, they easily take the role of the Cleric. Heck, whenever I DM and my party has a Cleric and one of those three classes, I find that the Cleric ends up being the third wheel of the group.

So honestly, what is this thing that I'm missing? Am I just undervaluing Divination spells? I mean, I've been playing for years, and never really been impressed by or made much use of Divination spells because they don't give enough information to be really handy.

[Psyren]

Twilight's power relative to other clerics comes from concentration-free flight (few clerics get this) and being able to hand out perhaps the most party-wide temporary HP of any class in the game, to say nothing of boosting everyone's AC. And then on top of that it gets other good features like heavy armor proficiency, 300ft darkvision etc.

Cleric's primary benefit comes from the fact that they have really good uses for their bonus action and concentration in most fights, so your action is usually free to do whatever the group needs, whether that's healing, blasting, control, buffing/debuffing etc.

With that said, I agree with you that clerics in general are a bit disappointing in this edition. By tying domains to subclasses they've guaranteed that far too many of the good domains from prior editions were lost, and the few we got end up spread across too many gods.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've found their spell lists suck, their class abilities subpar, and their subclasses unimpressive. Sometimes, it's the archer, not the arrow. What you, sithlordnergal, want out of the game may be something at odds with what Cleric offers. There are 12 classes. Each fits into a different general niche of the omelette of a genre that is D&D.

I've played multiple clerics, enjoyed them all.

And the next time you see a bard turn undead, let me know.

With that said, I agree with you that clerics in general are a bit disappointing in this edition. By tying domains to subclasses they've guaranteed that far too many of the good domains from prior editions were lost, and the few we got end up spread across too many gods. And yet they reined in the OP 3.x cleric and got rid of a lot of bloat.
It's arguably the best built class in the original 5e PHB as regards options and features with a solid basic framework.

[Schwann145]

I really enjoy the Cleric, but I also can't help but agree with OP.

The spell list is awful.
Now, that doesn't mean Clerics don't have some great spells (they certainly do), but the fact that I'm 90% sure if I ask you what Cleric spells you're preparing, I can name them before you do. Because the good options are so few, and the bad/highly-situational ones are so many.

When it comes to Domain/Class abilities aside from the spell list, it's wildly hit or miss, and the most powerful Cleric options are really only powerful compared to other Clerics.
Twilight is an outstanding Cleric, head and shoulders above the others really, but it's not wildly better than other classes. And many Domains/Subclasses don't come anywhere near as useful.

All this said, I'm pretty sure a ton of the fault actually lies with how people play the game.
For example, if you assume that characters should be generally have access to magical weapons by X level, then spells like Magic Weapon become all but useless and will never see play (not a Cleric spell, but you get my point I hope).
Clerics are kind of a victim, IMO, of the "there's too much magic" problem in 5e. Instead of having great ways to solve problems with their Divine spells, those problems are pre-solved by the individual characters already, and the Cleric has significantly less to do other than yo-yo health totals.

[Amnestic]

I really enjoy the Cleric, but I also can't help but agree with OP.

The spell list is awful.
Now, that doesn't mean Clerics don't have some great spells (they certainly do), but the fact that I'm 90% sure if I ask you what Cleric spells you're preparing, I can name them before you do. Because the good options are so few, and the bad/highly-situational ones are so many.

I'm not sure that makes the spell list bad. If they've got quality spells, then they might not have much in the way of viable customisability (compared to, say, the wizard) but if they can still perform (and it seems like they can) then it's doing its job, surely?

[sithlordnergal]

Sometimes, it's the archer, not the arrow. What you, sithlordnergal, want out of the game may be something at odds with what Cleric offers. There are 12 classes. Each fits into a different general niche of the omelette of a genre that is D&D.

I've played multiple clerics, enjoyed them all.

And the next time you see a bard turn undead, let me know.
And yet they reined in the OP 3.x cleric and got rid of a lot of bloat.
It's arguably the best built class in the original 5e PHB as regards options and features with a solid basic framework.

See, normally I would agree with that, but I also have experience with other classes that are powerful but don't have what I look for in a game. Personally, I'm not a fan of Artificers, Barbarians, or Warlocks. They just don't fit my play style at all.

Yet I can look over their abilities and spell lists and its pretty easy to see just how good they are when I compare them to other classes. Heck, the Artificer can easily break a game in half if they're built right.

But when I start comparing Clerics to the other full casters in the game, or even the Paladin which is a Half-Caster, I'm just left wondering why aren't they stronger?

[Psyren]

And yet they reined in the OP 3.x cleric and got rid of a lot of bloat.
It's arguably the best built class in the original 5e PHB as regards options and features with a solid basic framework.

I agree with you that 3e CoDzilla was a problem - but I think they went all over the place trying to solve it.



Elemental / blasty clerics are pretty much gone. Closest we have is Tempest, which I won't even dignify with further conversation.
War Cleric should be at least as martial as a Swords/Valor Bard or Bladesinger, but they don't even get Extra Attack. Instead they get that lousy limited-use bonus action... thing :smallyuk:
Peace Domain makes their party better at fighting. Wait, what?
Summoner clerics are pretty much gone.
Army of the dead clerics got nerfed.
The only aligned cleric we have left is Law/Order. Where's Chaos/Freedom? And we're missing other domains too - where's Luck/Fate? Protection? Strength/Fist? Madness/Void? Nobility/Glory? Charm/Love? Travel? Angels/Demons? Sheer Destruction?


We might get some of this stuff back eventually, but come on, it's been nearly 10 years. I don't think clerics are too weak, at the end of the day a full caster is still a full caster, but I do think they had a lot more interesting concepts in prior editions.

[strangebloke]

Clerics get everything that makes martials good while also getting things that make casters good. They get high AC, and their main stat (WIS) has far greater defensive and practical utility than CHA or (lol) Int. Their damage is actually decent, better than any caster not named 'warlock', and the standard cleric thing with spiritual weapon / spirit guardians / cantrip-attack adds up to a massive impact at basically any level in pure damage terms. There are a variety of builds, notably arcana cleric builds, that just kind of smash everything in terms of damage.

"But they only have a few good spells!" I mean... Only like a dozen? The real value here though is how many spells they can have prepared between subclass and everything else. Bards and sorcerers and warlocks are all far more limited in terms of spells known. Even wizards will usually have fewer spells prepared, and a large number of the spells they do have prepared will be used to cover basic class weaknesses like "no AC."

Meanwhile a cleric can have bread and butter spells that cover all their needs while also having loads of random niche utility spells. Something like "Protection From Poison" isn't something the wizard knows how to cast, but the cleric does, and they might actually have it when it would be useful. Between various effects like this as well as healing, clerics are the utility knife of the caster world. Something like ""

And yeah, their subclasses give a lot of power. The spell lists given are really good. Pass without trace, fireball, divine favor. The CDs let you do stuff like raise the whole party back into the fight, clear a room full of undead. Other features give massive THP or a budget paladin aura, or negation of criticals.

They do fall off after level 10 or so admittedly. I don't weight that too heavily because I don't play much at those levels, but even with all my glowing praise I'd still consider them only "A" tier behind the wizards and paladins, but ahead of all the sorcerers and non-paladin martials.

[stoutstien]

I think the cleric is two fold. The base class is turn key with a straightforward strategy that is easy to implement. decent AC and HP with enough high impact spells to keep on trucking.

Moving past that you really need to understand the individual domains to get that extra umph. For example if you are looking for some more blasty fun tempest isn't the way to go even if it looks like it is. You want light. Same for a more weapon focused cleric skipping war for death or arcana.

[Psyren]

Light should be the undead destroyer, the kind of cleric that would make you feared somewhere like Barovia or the Underdark. Not saying they should only be blasting undead, but I would more expect a cleric of Fire or Lightning to be the general non-undead blaster.

The fact that any cleric out-martials War is... beyond sad.

[Hael]

Clerics and druids are probably the best classes in the game before you hit 5th lvl spells (lvl 9!!! Well past most campaigns are over).
Spirit guardians by itself can end up easily topping all damage charts in terms of total damage done.

They are tanky! Certain subclasses (looking at you Peace/Twilight and lvl 17 Arcana) get the most broken subclass features in the entire game.

Lots of spell utility/passive perception/support.

And yes, they don't scale amazingly well like wizards, and I personally get bored playing them, but they are indisputably strong.

[LudicSavant]

As far as I've been able to experience in play, as long as you have a Paladin, Bard, or Druid, not even all three, just one of them, they easily take the role of the Cleric. Heck, whenever I DM and my party has a Cleric and one of those three classes, I find that the Cleric ends up being the third wheel of the group.

So honestly, what is this thing that I'm missing? Am I just undervaluing Divination spells? I mean, I've been playing for years, and never really been impressed by or made much use of Divination spells because they don't give enough information to be really handy.

The issue isn't undervaluing Divination spells, since (as useful as those are) they are not necessary to make Clerics great.

You don't give a whole lot of clues to how you/your players utilize Clerics in your post, so it's hard to pick out specifically what you are missing. But there definitely is something being missed, as a Paladin is not going to be able to easily take over a well-played Cleric's job.

Let's take, say, a Light Cleric. Just at level 2, they get an ability that does the same average damage as Shatter (arguably the best pre-Fizban level 2 blast spell)... in a 65 foot diameter with no friendly fire and a superior damage type, plus some riders like dispelling Darkness and counting as sunlight. 3 times per day in a DMG "standard" adventuring day. And nobody even has level 2 spell slots yet.

A Paladin can't step in and do that.

That same Light Cleric is also going to have 3 or 4 Warding Flares, 3 spell slots (1.5x the Paladin), 7 or 8 spells prepared (twice what the Paladin will have at this level), 4 cantrips known, and a better statline than the Paladin (because they're Wis SAD).

And that's just starting off. Full spellcasters only get better over time.

[Dork_Forge]

I agree with you that 3e CoDzilla was a problem - but I think they went all over the place trying to solve it.
where's Charm/Love?


This one isn't happening, that's for sure.

They tried this with the... Peace Cleric? Maybe the Order, one of the two. The backlash was so severe in UA they completely renamed and reworked it. In today's day and age 'love' being represented by charm effects and mind control.... is never going to fly, and basically any other representation of 'love' is just protection/buff that can be done by a wide array of Clerics.

[kazaryu]

But when I start comparing Clerics to the other full casters in the game, or even the Paladin which is a Half-Caster, I'm just left wondering why aren't they stronger?

well...what do you mean by stronger? what is it that you want them to be able to do that they can't? you've tossed several generalities in this thread, but nothing specific. 'their spell list is bad' is only useful if we know what you're comparing it too, and what you want it to be able to do. even statements like 'compared to other casters in the game'. why are you comparing it to other casters....individual classes are meant to fill a niche, they shouldn't be directly comparable to other classes. so...again, what is it you think clerics *should* be able to do, that they aren't.



im hoping for a genuine response to the above question, but overall i do have a hypothesis about why you think clerics feel lackluster. support classes, in any RPG, are only as useful as the party needs them to be. with their apparent value also limited by the parties perspective on what offers value. For example: lets say that overall the cleric constantly casts bless. and on average it increases party damage by 20%. Thats good, ...however, it can also very, very hard to notice in game. most people roll the extra d4 as part of the attack roll it applies to, and i image very few parties are actively paying attention to when it matters. or worse, the party may not know when it matterd at all, because they never get a good idea of what the enemy AC is. so...sure, the bless was there, but without any obvious signs of it having an impact...it can end up feeling lackluster. similarly, if you're in a group where combats tend to be fairly quick, and relatively infrequent (compared to long rests) then you may not even need a support character. Support classes, by their nature, are force multipliers, rather than forces themselves. and if the party is strong enough by itself that it doesn't need the extra oomph...then yeah, cleric is going to feel lackluster.

That isn't to say that you can't play a character as something other than a support character, you obviously can. but thats not their primary design space. Clerics suffer even more from this due to the specific niche they fill. Much of their design space is focused on buffing the party. compare that to other support classes such as the druid and the bard, who are designed around controling the enemy. either through terrain control (druids) or crowd control (bards) the other support classes tend to have more emphasis on targetting the enemy rather than allies.

Then, there's the problem of healing, clerics are traditionally healers...and they absoltue gutted combat healing in 5e, and gave everyone a TON of out of comabt healing. idk, thats my take, without knowing what you're specifically expecting its hard to say why you might feel they're lackluster. But i've never been disappointed playing a cleric, even a support focused one. Although i can understand why someone might get frustrated by them.

[Psyren]

This one isn't happening, that's for sure.

They tried this with the... Peace Cleric? Maybe the Order, one of the two. The backlash was so severe in UA they completely renamed and reworked it. In today's day and age 'love' being represented by charm effects and mind control.... is never going to fly, and basically any other representation of 'love' is just protection/buff that can be done by a wide array of Clerics.

Calling it "charm" or "compel" would be fine and avoid any implications.

[Yakmala]

Cleric is one of my favorite classes. There are around a dozen different sub-classes to choose from and many of them play very differently. The way I played my Tempest Cleric was very different from how I played my Twilight Cleric, which was also very different from how I played a Nature Cleric.

I played a Twilight Cleric for over a year in a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign and they were ridiculously effective both at doing damage and keeping themselves and the party alive. Their typical order of battle went something like this:

Round 1: Action: Twilight Sanctuary. Bonus Action: Flight.

Round 2: Action: Spirit Guardians.

Round 3: Action: Dodge. Bonus Action, Spiritual Weapon.

So now he's flying, dodging, handing out tons of Temp HP and doing damage both with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

For tough fights where the group needs healing more than my extra damage, I'd put up Aura of Vitality instead of Spirit Guardians on Round 2 and cast Sanctuary on myself instead of Spiritual Weapon on Round 3. Now I'm flying, dodging and they need to make a wisdom save to target me.

I don't think my Twilight Cleric wielded a melee weapon once the entire campaign, but he was fun, effective, kept the party alive and could do reasonable damage when needed.

[ImproperJustice]

Played a Forge Cleric from 5-20, never felt at any time like I was lacking.
Quite the opposite in fact.

Frequently the MVP spell caster that never dies.
Party wide buffs like Heroes Feast, Death Ward, Aid, etc….

Pocket heals and revives.

Lots of problem solving spells and abilities.

Subclass provided great defense and offensive magic at all tiers.

Able to hunker down with a 25 AC and take on a dozen Githyanki elites (scaled to player levels) with Spirit Guardians and upcast spiritual weapon and clobber them all.

Late game could level cities with Earthquakes or rebuild them with Divine Intervention.

And Divine Intervention is nothing to sneeze at.
Basically with persistence you can revive any ally, plane shift, or do anything your deity can do.

I get it may not be your thing, but it’s been my favorite and I have now run a Light and Nature Cleric since and had a great deal of fun with both.

[Witty Username]

What subclasses and spell selections have you used?

[sithlordnergal]

well...what do you mean by stronger? what is it that you want them to be able to do that they can't? you've tossed several generalities in this thread, but nothing specific. 'their spell list is bad' is only useful if we know what you're comparing it too, and what you want it to be able to do. even statements like 'compared to other casters in the game'. why are you comparing it to other casters....individual classes are meant to fill a niche, they shouldn't be directly comparable to other classes. so...again, what is it you think clerics *should* be able to do, that they aren't.


Sooo, yeah let me go into more specifics. So, looking over the Cleric spell list, I've noticed a lot of things missing that other full casters, and some half-casters, have. Heck, I've noticed a lot of things that the old 3.5 Clerics had that the Cleric now lacks. Now, I'm fine with Clerics not having blasty spells, they didn't really do blasty spells in 3.5 either, and that should remain firmly in the hands of arcane casters. However, they're missing what I feel are some pretty key spell options in their repertoire. Do note, I'm only going over the base spell list, not Domain spells. The Domain spells can help, but you can't get every single domain spell on a single Cleric. If you take one Domain to shore up your spell list, you lose out on the rest:

---Utility---

I know a lot of people have said Clerics are amazing utility casters, but they seem like they're missing some key utility spells? Now, Clerics do get the super well known, super important ones, like Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, and Remove Curse, as well as a few minor ones like Purify Food and Drink, Detect/Neutralize Poison. But they lack any spells that aid in travel or exploration, they don't really have any spells that aid in communication outside of Tongues and Sending, and the only spells that help out in ability checks are Guidance, Find Traps, and Enhance Ability from what I can find.

Where's Comprehend Language? Wind Walk? Magic Weapon? Skywrite? See Invisibility? Darkvision? Move Earth? The 3.5 Cleric had Darkness, Water Breathing, their own version of the Fly spell, Wall of Stone, the 3.5 equivalent of Nondetection, and then some. Where are these utility spells? Heck, Clerics in 5e have Calm Emotions and Zone of Truth, but where's Detect Thoughts, a spell that's in a similar vein as those? Now, I'll admit some of these utility spells have a more niche use than things like Detect/Dispel Magic, but come on, they're still really good to have, and when they do come up, you're gonna wish you had them.


---Debuffs---

Clerics don't really have many debuff spells. They have things like Bane, Command, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, and Contagion. But...where's the rest of them? I know Charm Person isn't exactly great, but why is the Cleric the only full caster without access to it? Why are the only two spells I can find that even cause the Charm condition Geas and Fast Friends? Where are the spells that cause the Frightened condition? Prone? How about spells that don't cause a specific Condition, but are still clearly debuff spells? Such as Earthbind, Entangle, Faire Fire, or Compulsion? Elemental Bane? Flesh to Stone? There are tons of stories of deities turning people to stone, how is that not a Cleric spell? The have Calm Emotions but not Antipathy/Sympathy, the Druid gets it instead?


---Buffs---

This one I'll give to Clerics, they are the king of buffing the party...for the most part. They do lack a few buff spells, but the buff spells they're lacking are pretty clearly arcane in nature, not divine or both. Though I will state, the 3.5 Cleric did have the 3.5 version of Globe of Invulnerability, a bit weird that was removed from Clerics now but they kept Anti-Magic Sphere. Also, why don't Clerics have spells like Fire Shield? You can't tell me that Fire Shield wouldn't fit perfectly with Spirit Shroud or Spirit Guardians. Heck, its not even Concentration, so you can have both up at once. They also don't have Foresight...all these Divination spells regarding the future and asking about the future, but no Foresight. Why?


---Control---

Once again, Clerics don't really have a lot to work with. As mentioned before, they don't have Entangle, but lets look at what they do have. They have Silence, Spirit Guardians, Spirit Shroud, Banishment, and Anti-Magic Field. Which again, are decent spells...but they really need more. The 3.5 Cleric had spells like Darkness and Wall of Stone, but they also had things like Wind Wall. Why doesn't the Cleric have those anymore, or things like Water Wall, Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, or Anti-Life Shell? I know Plant Growth feels like a Druidy spell, and Confusion feels like a Bard spell, but both of those spells are on the Druid and Bard's spell lists, why not give it to the Cleric as well? How about Watery Sphere? Wall of Thorns would fit nicely with Blade Barrier.


---Conjuration---

This is probably where Clerics got hit the hardest. Used to be Clerics had tons of summoning spells, both good and evil summoning spells. The 3.5 Cleric even had Animate Objects. Now the Cleric's only summoning spells are Summon Celestial, Planar Ally, Conjure Celestial, and Gate? What happened to all the summoning spells? Are you telling me that an evil Cleric can't summon Demons and Devils? They can't summon Fey? No Summon Shadowspawn? They can still Animate and Create Dead, but they don't have Summon Undead? Like, I can understand not giving them Conjure/Summon Elemental, that feels like its firmly in Wizard territory, with Druids only being able to do it cause of a connection to nature. But why can't Clerics summon Devils, Demons, or Fey? Why remove Animate Objects from their spell list?

----

That kind of covers it spell wise. I did skip out on the damage spells, but then again I don't think Clerics should have hyper damaging spells like Disintegrate. They do alright with their current damaging spells. I'll be honest, its hard to really put into words without just snagging precise spells, but I do hope the spells in question are able to get my point across. ^_^;;;;;

I wouldn't call Cleric a bad class, they seem like they're designed pretty well. Its not like the old, pre-buff PHB Ranger where you could really tell that it was not a good class. But at the same time, I don't feel like it really stands out compared to the other full casters in the game. Going through the Cleric's spell list, they have a really heavy focus on Divination spells. In fact, they have basically every single Divination spell in the game that involves asking the DM about some future event, finding hidden information/lore, or watching creatures/places. They also have every single healing spell in the game, baring a few minor exceptions.

And while their subclass abilities are extremely varied and they have a ton of subclasses, there really aren't that many that stand out against other classes. For example, consider the Twilight Cleric, one of the best Cleric Subclasses in the game, and all thanks to its Channel Divinity feature that lets them give out a ton of Temp HP for 1 minute. But uh...wouldn't you say that the Shepard Druid's Spirit Totem is pretty similar? Sure, the Spirit totem can only ever be used once per Short Rest, while the Twilight Cleric gains more uses of Channel Divinity over time. But outside of that one limitation, its basically the Twilight Cleric's Channel Ability, but a bit better cause it can do three things, its not centered on you, and you can move it up to 60 feet with a Bonus Action. More to the point, the Unicorn Spirit lets you heal everyone of your choice within that Aura, all at the cost of healing anyone, anywhere with a spell slot.

And while the rest of the Twilight Druid's abilities are more party wide support and utility while the Sheppard Druid focuses on buffing their summons, they are on par with each other.

[Witty Username]

So bear spirit totem vs twilight sanctuary,
Bear gives 5 +level temp hp
Or 7 at 2nd level

Twilight sanctuary gives 10d6 + 10*level
Or 45 at second level.

So they are similar in the sense that a smart car and a Semi-truck both transport cargo, but have vastly different capacities.

[Jervis]

Clerics have the worst best spell list in the game. They have great BA economy, spiritual weapon is a cheap bit effective DPR boost, spirit guardians is arguable the best 3rd level spell in the game. I agree though that their spell list is lacking elsewhere. For one thing they need a scagtrip. Give them some kinda melee weapon attack cantrip. At higher level spells they need more utility spells. You have so many spells you can prepare but so few good options that you’ll just be fluffing it with spells that you’ll never cast.

[Witty Username]

Spirit guardians also has the dubious honor of being practically the only spell actually worth upcasting semi-regularly. An extra 1d8 every proc adds up really fast.
It does weird stuff with the clerics 4th, 5th and 6th level spells when that gets noticed.

[sithlordnergal]

What subclasses and spell selections have you used?

Lets see, for Cleric I've played:

Arcana, Death, Forge, Life, Light, and Nature to varying levels, I've mutliclassed into Cleric a few times. In fact, my best blasting build has a nuke that requires you to dip 2 levels into Tempest Cleric for their Channel Divinity. But that's more because the Order of Scribes has a unique synergy with the Tempest Domain, since Scribe Wizards can easily change the damage type of a spell into Thunder or Lightning, and Tempest Clerics can let you max out that damage.

As for spells, I have used most of them. To the point where I think it'd be easier to name the spells I haven't tried using as a Cleric...Honestly, the spells I haven't cast are usually ones with a super specific niche, like Geas, have a really specific benefit, like Dawn being Sunlight, or involve fortifying a base, like Forbiddance. And while having those spells are nice, and I do like them, they're not really things I keep prepared. Like take Dawn, its a pretty nice 5th level spell. But I'm not going to prepare it over Flame Strike, Holy Weapon, or Insect Plague unless i happen to know we'll be fighting something that has some sort of weakness to Sunlight.

[sithlordnergal]

So bear spirit totem vs twilight sanctuary,
Bear gives 5 +level temp hp
Or 7 at 2nd level

Twilight sanctuary gives 10d6 + 10*level
Or 45 at second level.

So they are similar in the sense that a smart car and a Semi-truck both transport cargo, but have vastly different capacities.

I'm talking more about Unicorn Spirit. Twilight Sanctuary is better than the Bear Spirit, no doubt there, but the Unicorn Spirit lets you heal everyone within the aura for your level, so its more comparable. Now, unlike Twilight Sanctuary, the Unicorn Spirit does require you to cast a healing spell to make it work, so Twilight Sanctuary is better in that regard. However, in exchange for that you're actually healing creatures, which is a bit better than Temp HP since it can pick people up if they've been downed, you don't have to be within the aura to proc its effect, and you don't have to heal a creature within the aura to proc its effect.

So you can stand in the back, far away from the front lines, and have the Aura be where the majority of the party is, heal the Rogue that's likely out of position, and still heal the entire party. I think my best use of that ability was when I once used Misty Step to teleport outside of a room with a small window to prevent myself from being targeted after conjuring 8 Giant Poisonous Snakes. I popped my Spirit Totem in the room and spent the entire combat outside of the building, occasionally casting Cure Wounds on myself to heal all 8 snakes and the party, while shouting a few directions through the window.

EDIT: ...The DM has banned Sheppard Druids ever since that encounter. XD

[ATHATH]

On why the Twilight Cleric is good (at least in comparison to the other Cleric subclasses):



1st Faerie Fire, Sleep
3rd Moonbeam, See Invisibility
5th Aura of Vitality, Leomund's Tiny Hut
7th Aura of Life, Greater Invisibility
9th Circle of Power, Mislead

Sleep straight up ends entire encounters in a single round at levels 1 and 2.

Leomund's Tiny Hut lets you straight up rest in the middle of a dungeon and do some nasty shenanigans when paired with with Teleport (cast just as you're about to finish ritual casting LTH). Aura of Vitality is ~70 points of out of combat healing for a third level spell slot, if you need that.

The other spells are eh, but you have Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, you'll be fine(-ish).


Bonus Proficiencies
At 1st level, you gain proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor.
Heavy armor proficiency = good.


Eyes of Night
Starting at 1st level, You can see through the deepest gloom. You have darkvision out to a range of 300 feet. In that radius, you can see in dim light as if it were bright light and in darkness as if it were dim light.

As an action, you can magically share the darkvision of this feature with willing creatures you can see within 10 feet of you, up to a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of one creature). The shared darkvision lasts for 1 hour. Once you share it, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of any level to share it again.
This lets you basically ignore the "no darkvision" drawback of all of the variant humans and dragonborn in your party (there WILL be at least one of them). This lets you adventure without holding a bright light that gives away your position- disadvantage on perception checks while in dark->dim light hurts a little bit, but is manageable if you have a large enough flat bonus (and/or Guidance).


Vigilant Blessing
At 1st level, the night has taught you to be vigilant. As an action, you give one creature you touch (including possibly yourself) advantage on the next initiative roll the creature makes. This benefit ends immediately after the roll or if you use this feature again.
Going first = good.


Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary
At 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight.

As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:

You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level.
You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

Unless a feature that grants you temporary Hit Points has a Duration, they last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest.
1. Finish a long rest.
2. Have the entire party (including all of your mounts, familiars, animated dead, etc.) huddle around the Twilight Cleric.
3. Have the Twilight Cleric pop Twilight Sanctuary.
4. Everyone gains 10d6b1 (the highest roll amongst 10 d6s) + your cleric level in THP.
5. Immediately take a short rest.
6. Start the adventuring day with your entire entourage having a significant buffer of THP at the cost of no significant resources (unless you consider the time lost from extended an 8 hour rest into a 9 hour rest a "significant resource").

It's basically Inspiring Leader, except it doesn't have a creature limit*, it takes an action to pop instead of 10 minutes, and it repeats itself every turn for the rest of the combat once you've popped it(!). The action required to pop it isn't a spell, so you can cast Spiritual Weapon (or Healing Word) and pop Twilight Sanctuary on the same turn. Also, it purges charm and frightened effects if you can get your charmed/frightened party members to not run out of it on their turn, so clearing, say, a vampire's domination is as easy as just casting Command: Stop (or getting a teammate to tackle the dominated party member if you don't have the Sanctuary up yet).

*okay there's technically a limit to how many people you can fit in a 30 ft. radius sphere, but you're not gonna hit it unless you're trying to buff an entire army


Steps of Night
Starting at 6th level, you can draw on the mystical power of night to rise into the air. As a bonus action when you are in dim light or darkness, you can magically give yourself a flying speed equal to your walking speed for 1 minute. You can use this bonus action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
This effect doesn't end if you LEAVE that area of dim light or darkness. If you carry a parasol on you, this is basically* the third level spell Fly prof. mod times/day, as a bonus action that doesn't interfere with other spellcasting, and without a concentration requirement(!). Are you swarmed by melee enemies? Just use the disengage action, pop this ability, and fly directly upwards. What are they gonna do, leap up and chew apart your starships?

You can also carry allies over gaps, strafe enemy encampments, carry allies up cliffsides, pursue flying enemies, carry allies past your DM's intricately-crafted puzzles, do a Goku impression with Sunbeam, etc.

*okay it only lasts for 1 minute instead of 10 and is self-only, but 1 minute is long enough for most combats/out-of-combat flight utility anyway.


Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with divine energy. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.
You can replace this with the ACF that buffs cantrips instead if you're using cantrips instead of martial weapons.


Twilight Shroud
At 17th level, the twilight that you summon offers a protective embrace: you and your allies have half cover while in the sphere created by your Twilight Sanctuary.
Your game is not reaching 17th level- this ability could read "if you die in the game, you die in real life" and nothing would change. A flat +2 to AC and Dex saves is nice to have in a bounded accuracy system like 5e, although this is still kind of an underwhelming capstone. Fortunately, that doesn't matter, because most 5e players will be lucky to have their games reach 10th level, let alone 17th level.



All I see on it is the ability to give their party Darkvision, which isn't exactly a big deal since nearly every race has it, and you want bright light anyway to avoid disadvantage on perception checks, and their Channel Divinity which is strong, but is also a pretty limited short rest resource since you can only use it once or twice per short rest until level 18, which nets you three uses.

In summary:

You're overvaluing the amount that disadvantage on Perception checks due to using dark->dim light hurts you compared to how much not needing to hold up a giant "we are here" sign helps you.
Sleep makes you cracked at lower levels.
Twilight Sanctuary isn't nearly as limited in daily uses as you think, and can be popped for basically-free in the morning. Assuming you get 1 short rest/day, you can keep pace with a Barbarian's number of daily rages from 6th level to 11th level. It's also a pretty big force multiplier for minions and mounts and can effectively negative multiple attacks per combat.
Concentration-free flight good, especially if your DM bans winged tieflings and their ilk.
Heavy armor proficiency is nice if you're gonna be on the front lines with Spirit Guardians.
Twilight Clerics get most of their good stuff early- Sleep, the bonus proficiencies, Eyes of Night, Vigilant Blessing, and Twilight Blessing are all obtained at or before level 2.


And yep, the Cleric spell list is pretty anemic and has quite a bit of trash on it, but it does have a few really good spells on it. Fortunately, nothing is forcing you to prepare/cast the bad spells- you can just (up)cast the good spells (Spirit Guardians my beloved) and ignore the trash.

[Warder]

I think the Cleric is very strong, and that all of its problems lie in the spell list. However, I don't think the spell list necessarily needs to be modified - it's just the issue with all prepared casters that is taken to its extreme with the Cleric, as they have a ton of spells that are focused on solving niche problems that are hard to prepare for in advance. They could really benefit from a feature that lets you swap out a prepared spell mid-adventuring day, or maybe cast an unprepared spell X (or even one) times per day.

I played a wizard with a custom feat that let me do that once, it made the wizard game so much better, and I suspect it'd do the same thing for clerics.

[Spacehamster]

I really enjoy the Cleric, but I also can't help but agree with OP.

The spell list is awful.
Now, that doesn't mean Clerics don't have some great spells (they certainly do), but the fact that I'm 90% sure if I ask you what Cleric spells you're preparing, I can name them before you do. Because the good options are so few, and the bad/highly-situational ones are so many.

When it comes to Domain/Class abilities aside from the spell list, it's wildly hit or miss, and the most powerful Cleric options are really only powerful compared to other Clerics.
Twilight is an outstanding Cleric, head and shoulders above the others really, but it's not wildly better than other classes. And many Domains/Subclasses don't come anywhere near as useful.

All this said, I'm pretty sure a ton of the fault actually lies with how people play the game.
For example, if you assume that characters should be generally have access to magical weapons by X level, then spells like Magic Weapon become all but useless and will never see play (not a Cleric spell, but you get my point I hope).
Clerics are kind of a victim, IMO, of the "there's too much magic" problem in 5e. Instead of having great ways to solve problems with their Divine spells, those problems are pre-solved by the individual characters already, and the Cleric has significantly less to do other than yo-yo health totals.

Would not arcana cleric outshine twilight? Eventually Level 6-9 wizard spells, wizard cantrips and such?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

So just to give a single example. Let's make a Cleric. Race and Domain don't matter, we'll assume 16 Wis at level 1. Since we're ignoring Domain let's assume Medium armor and a 14 Dex. Also a 14 Con, pretty basic with point buy or floating ASI on any race.

At level 1 Round 1 of Combat I use Bless to give the 3 most effective members of my party an average of +2 on every attack and saving throw. At this point, every save they make by 2 or less I am responsible for negating the effect. Every attack they make by 2 or less, I am responsible for all of that attack's damage. After that I can just spam Sacred Flame with effectively a 55% chance of dealing 1d8 Radiant Damage, which ignores cover. This isn't super flashy, but I still can throw a Healing Word or a Guiding Bolt later to add more assistance. My HP is 10, my AC is 18 I am as tanky as the fighter with only slightly less HP.

At level 3 Round 1 of Combat I use Spirit Weapon and Sacred flame still with on average 55% accuracy for a potential of 2d8+3 damage on that round. Next round I cast Bless while still getting 1d8+3 damage and the fight goes like earlier except I deal an extra 1d8+3 damage per round. I am now making 2 attacks which puts me ahead of everyone but Monk and 2 Weapon fighters on the damage curve. AC is still 18, HP is on average 24, so lower than Fighter, but I can heal too, so it kind of balances as needed.

At level 4 I am using the same as level 3 but my Wisdom is now 18 so Sacred Flame is 60% accurate and I deal 1d8+4 damage with Spiritual Weapon. Again, this entire character career I have been using my Concentration to help others. HP is 31, AC still 18

At level 5 Things change a bit. Round 1 is Spirit Guardians. This spell can last 100 Combat rounds, makes a Fireball sized AoE centered on me that forces 3d8 damage save for 1/2 EACH round AND no matter what becomes difficult terrain for all my enemies. With my HP at 38, I'm a bit squishier, but it's also reasonable I have halfplate now, so AC becomes 19, just below a dedicated Warrior Tank at 20 or 21. I am a wall protecting my squishier allies. Round 2 I bring out Spiritual Weapon and Sacred Flame and from then on Every round I deal 3d8+4 damage to a single target, or 1d8+4 to 1 target and 2d8 to another target. On top of that EVERYTHING within 15' of me has their movement cut in half and takes 3d8 damage with a save for half.

This is just the generic Cleric choice here, a basic, by the book, looking at the layout and playing the class well.

Things that'll tweak that, just to name a few.

Any Domain with Heavy armor, your AC is going to start at 18 just the same but by level 5 is reasonably 20.

Peace Domain. Gives you Bless without Concentration essentially, it's a bit weaker than Bless, but that's an extra spellslot to do something else with, and it means you can keep it up once Spirit Guardians come online.

Arcana Domain: Switch Sacred Flame for Firebolt to make your damage higher and more reliable. Or Ray of Frost to further hinder enemy movement.

Grave Cleric: You worry about when to use healing and not healing enough? Now you just wait for your allies to drop then you automatically roll max on any healing spell you cast. Also you can Spare the Dying at range and I believe as a bonus action so next to no danger of a party member actually going down.

And in general for clerics. They flavor VERY easily. Are you a Tanked out Dwarven Forge Cleric? Your Spiritual Weapon is a Warhammer, your Spirit Guardians living Flames or spirits of items you've crafted yourself come to life. My one cleric I've played? Crystal Dragon Born. Her Guiding Bolts are refined versions of her breath, he Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are an army of Wyrmlings she summons that dart around the battlefield aiding me.

This is just a few casual observations by someone who normally plays Bards and Warlocks.

[Ir0ns0ul]

And how about Trickery Cleric?

Charm Person and Disguise Self have their use for social disorder situation. Then you get Mirror Image (meh) and Pass Without a Trace, one of the best spells in the game. Later on Blink (meh) and Dispel Magic (free prep). Finally Dimension Door, a fantastic and useful spell, and more importantly, our beloved Polymorph.

I think all those spells add a lot of versatility to the base Cleric, and although not particularly so good for your action economy, you get several unique spells to double down your survivability.

[Schwann145]

*snip*
There are so many points to argue against in this summary.

Take an extra hour after your long rest cuz it'd be super handy? I'm sorry, I thought your character was a person, with goals and motivations and responsibilities and on and on. I bet an extra hour of sleep would be great for you, too, but I doubt you're ignoring your alarm clock and going to work an hour later than scheduled just because it would be handy!

Carry a parasol? Are you serious? No DM worth their salt is letting anyone get away with that nonsense! :smalltongue:

Suffice to say, it is absolutely not shocking at all that so many people critique 5e as "a video game" instead of a ttrpg, and this is an outstanding example of why; treating everything like a formulaic code to be properly input for optimal results instead of like characters living and struggling naturally through their world. :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

Why would you need a parasol when they can emanate a sphere of dim light? :smallconfused:

[Keravath]

Cleric is one of my favorite classes. There are around a dozen different sub-classes to choose from and many of them play very differently. The way I played my Tempest Cleric was very different from how I played my Twilight Cleric, which was also very different from how I played a Nature Cleric.

I played a Twilight Cleric for over a year in a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign and they were ridiculously effective both at doing damage and keeping themselves and the party alive. Their typical order of battle went something like this:

Round 1: Action: Twilight Sanctuary. Bonus Action: Flight.

Round 2: Action: Spirit Guardians.

Round 3: Action: Dodge. Bonus Action, Spiritual Weapon.

So now he's flying, dodging, handing out tons of Temp HP and doing damage both with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

For tough fights where the group needs healing more than my extra damage, I'd put up Aura of Vitality instead of Spirit Guardians on Round 2 and cast Sanctuary on myself instead of Spiritual Weapon on Round 3. Now I'm flying, dodging and they need to make a wisdom save to target me.

I don't think my Twilight Cleric wielded a melee weapon once the entire campaign, but he was fun, effective, kept the party alive and could do reasonable damage when needed.

I'm not seeing this as especially powerful .. maybe I am missing something.

1) They don't contribute damage to the fight until the third round except possibly via spirit guardians cast on the second.
2) Spirit guardians is a 15' radius - the higher you go the smaller its footprint on the ground. Go up 15' and you might affect one target depending on where the DM decides the effect originates from.
3) If you fly at 5' or possibly 10' to get more targets into the radius then you might be flying close enough to be attacked by folks standing on the ground so it doesn't gain you that much. A typical 6' tall medium creature reaching a foot above their head, wielding a 3-4' weapon could conceivably hit a creature flying 10' off the ground - though lots of DM calls involved in working out combat and positioning in 3D. Even if you go with 5' cubes - a creature with a reach weapon would be able to hit a creature flying 10' off the ground.

Using the Twilight Sanctuary feature is the main draw for the Twilight cleric since you give your team mates the d6+cleric level temp hit every round. That can make a huge difference unless the opponents are using focused tactics - but other than that (and the flight which has some limitations if used with spirit guardians), there is nothing there that a regular cleric isn't doing one round earlier.

P.S. ... and if the opponents have ranged weapons, the cleric flying just above the melee becomes a prime target ... though dodging does help.

[Snails]

The situation with cleric's is pretty simple: No, they are not great; but they are very good, potentially good at almost everything.

To some people that is insufficiently glamorous to get them excited. Fair enough. And you are right to think that if your party is decently skilled at teamwork you can easily make do without the class. But it is not because anything is wrong with the class, in general. It is not that the cleric needs a boost.

BTW, the cleric workhorses of Bless and Spirit Guardian go from "pretty good" to "great" if you cast before combat, and bend the Action Economy in your favor. That is a matter of whether or not you have a skilled player who can really tune in to how combat usually unfolds with your DM.

I have been playing a cleric recently, and I usually do not bother with Bless unless it is a pre-combat casting. Nor do I even find Spirit Guardians very helpful. My PC is a Tempest cleric, and his workhorse spell is an upcast Destructive Wrath (channel) Shatter, to soften up choices targets so the frontliners can carve right through, and the rest is details. And my PC is a solid frontliner with the highest AC in the part and good HPs. Again, not so good as to be glamorous in the eyes of most players, but effective and robust enough to be a reliable contributor.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm just left wondering why aren't they stronger? You want them to be more powerful? Stonger? What do you mean by that. Those are kind of vague.

My approach to a cleric is based on a core game assumption: we build a team of PCs who each bring a different set of gifts/skills to the various adventures and challenges we are faced with. Cleric makes his team better in a lot of ways, and can debuff the enemy in a number of ways, and can also deal out some damage. Doesn't need to be the Alpha in any of that. Banishment, as but one example, when it lands is a huge force multiplier for the party. Heroes' Feast is a superb buff. I could go on, but I am not sure what you mean by "powerful" in your assessment.

Up to twelve other creatures can partake of the feast. A creature that partakes of the feast gains several benefits. The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours.

[LIST]
Elemental / blasty clerics are pretty much gone. Closest we have is Tempest, which I won't even dignify with further conversation.
?? Not seeing what's wrong with Tempest cleric.

War Cleric should be at least as martial as a Swords/Valor Bard or Bladesinger, but they don't even get Extra Attack. Concur. Extra attack at 6 would not have harmed the game.

Peace Domain makes their party better at fighting. Wait, what?
Every cleric can make the party better.

Summoner clerics are pretty much gone.
Good.

Army of the dead clerics got nerfed.
Good (Won't comment on death domain).

The only aligned cleric we have left is Law/Order. Where's Chaos/Freedom? Interesting question, and that is probably the next domain that would be useful. But ya know what? I think they were dealing with bloat and I'm glad that they trimmed it.

Light should be the undead destroyer, the kind of cleric that would make you feared somewhere like Barovia or the Underdark. What would you add to it to make it more of an undead destroyer?


Lets see, for Cleric I've played:{snip}

Arcana, Death, Forge, Life, Light, and Nature to varying levels As for spells, I have used most of them. To the point where I think it'd be easier to name the spells I haven't tried using as a Cleric.
Honestly, the spells I haven't cast are usually ones with a super specific niche, like Geas, have a really specific benefit, like Dawn being Sunlight, or involve fortifying a base, like Forbiddance. And while having those spells are nice, and I do like them, they're not really things I keep prepared. Like take Dawn, its a pretty nice 5th level spell. But I'm not going to prepare it over Flame Strike, Holy Weapon, or Insect Plague unless I happen to know we'll be fighting something that has some sort of weakness to Sunlight.[/QUOTE] Scouting and recon is a thing, or it used to be a part of the exploration pillar. If you play mostly 'knock the door down' style games little stuff like that can be lost: what spell do I prepare since I know we are seeking/hunting {X}

Would not arcana cleric outshine twilight? Eventually Level 6-9 wizard spells, wizard cantrips and such? It's a bit of a grind to get there.

[ImproperJustice]

The longer I mull over this post the more I am inclined to just agree to disagree with the OP.

There is a pretty overwhelming response from folks explaining with very good reasons why Clerics are a strong class with durability, damage options, recovery options, utility options, great action economy, great party wide buffs, good RP options and on an on….

Sorry this class doesn’t work for you. I and many others at my tables find them fun and versatile.

If it makes you feel any better, I kind of feel the same way about Bards and everyone else loves them.

The game and hobby are rich with possibilities and some classes just suit some others better.

Funnily enough I am gonna be running a Dwarven Light Cleric in an upcoming one shot next week, where I can play the role of team support, back up tank, and blaster as I see fit.

[stoutstien]

The only complaint I can see merit in is the fact any class that doesn't get additional attacks with attack action are better off with BB/GFB. Clerics as a whole are in that category and half of them get at least 1-2 features that promote swinging pointy sticks at foes. Not necessarily the cleric's chassis at fault but it is kinda lame.

Easy fix to add a cleric weapon cantrips that is just more thematically on point but less potent. Something like a mini radiant/necrotic damage bonus and a chance to disrupt undead.

[Psyren]

We just give War Clerics Extra Attack at our table in place of Divine Strike. We've also toyed with swapping that with War God's Blessing so Extra Attack comes in at 6th and WGB comes in at 8th, but we haven't done that yet.

[LudicSavant]

Here's a thing I posted a while back regarding Death Clerics, comparing how much damage their Channel Divinity resource adds compared Paladin smites (among other things). https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25377905&postcount=45

[Snails]

The only complaint I can see merit in is the fact any class that doesn't get additional attacks with attack action are better off with BB/GFB. Clerics as a whole are in that category and half of them get at least 1-2 features that promote swinging pointy sticks at foes. Not necessarily the cleric's chassis at fault but it is kinda lame.

Easy fix to add a cleric weapon cantrips that is just more thematically on point but less potent. Something like a mini radiant/necrotic damage bonus and a chance to disrupt undead.

The War Cleric is a disappointment in my eyes, not that it is terrible, but it does not feel special at its theme. I was weighing whether to try a War Cleric or a Light Cleric, and I went with Tempest. IMO Tempest is a better war cleric than a War Cleric, because a Thunderwave/Shatter more than compensate for a lack of additional attacks, when there are multiple foes.

[stoutstien]

The War Cleric is a disappointment in my eyes, not that it is terrible, but it does not feel special at its theme. I was weighing whether to try a War Cleric or a Light Cleric, and I went with Tempest. IMO Tempest is a better war cleric than a War Cleric, because a Thunderwave/Shatter more than compensate for a lack of additional attacks, when there are multiple foes.

Yea it's a letdown for a theme on a domain. Just about half of them feel more warlike than war.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The longer I mull over this post the more I am inclined to just agree to disagree with the OP.

There is a pretty overwhelming response from folks explaining with very good reasons why Clerics are a strong class with durability, damage options, recovery options, utility options, great action economy, great party wide buffs, good RP options and on an onÂ….

Sorry this class doesnÂ’t work for you. I and many others at my tables find them fun and versatile.

If it makes you feel any better, I kind of feel the same way about Bards and everyone else loves them.

The game and hobby are rich with possibilities and some classes just suit some others better.

Funnily enough I am gonna be running a Dwarven Light Cleric in an upcoming one shot next week, where I can play the role of team support, back up tank, and blaster as I see fit.

My first character was a Dwarven Light Cleric and I loved it. As a starting point he was just really tough in hp, AC, and saves. You're pretty SAD, so you have the option to go into feats fairly early. As you say, there are a number of things it does well, probably not too many that it's the best at, with the exception making a horde of undead just go away. I suppose if you want a class that specializes in something Cleric is probably not the class for you, unless it's an undead heavy campaign.
One spell that I don't think gets enough attention is Divine Word. My Cleric was in Out of the Abyss, so we had a lot of battles at higher levels against lots of Demons and Divine Word was an absolute game changer. I suppose it could be argued that it's a bit niche, but Celestials, Elementals, Fey, and Fiends are pretty common at high level. If you can use this even once per day, you're going to turn a tough encounter into a cake walk.
Most of our group has played a Cleric at one point or another, and I don't think any disliked their experience. Each character/ Subclass had it's own flavor, which I can't say for all the characters we've had from other classes. My main criticism, echoing some others on the thread, would be that resourceless damage is low. This wasn't so much of an issue when I played mine, but has evolved into more of an issue as blade cantrips and newer martial based subclasses have come on line for other classes.

[ImproperJustice]

My first character was a Dwarven Light Cleric and I loved it. As a starting point he was just really tough in hp, AC, and saves. You're pretty SAD, so you have the option to go into feats fairly early. As you say, there are a number of things it does well, probably not too many that it's the best at, with the exception making a horde of undead just go away. I suppose if you want a class that specializes in something Cleric is probably not the class for you, unless it's an undead heavy campaign.
One spell that I don't think gets enough attention is Divine Word. My Cleric was in Out of the Abyss, so we had a lot of battles at higher levels against lots of Demons and Divine Word was an absolute game changer. I suppose it could be argued that it's a bit niche, but Celestials, Elementals, Fey, and Fiends are pretty common at high level. If you can use this even once per day, you're going to turn a tough encounter into a cake walk.
Most of our group has played a Cleric at one point or another, and I don't think any disliked their experience. Each character/ Subclass had it's own flavor, which I can't say for all the characters we've had from other classes. My main criticism, echoing some others on the thread, would be that resourceless damage is low. This wasn't so much of an issue when I played mine, but has evolved into more of an issue as blade cantrips and newer martial based subclasses have come on line for other classes.

Absolutely!!!
My high level Forge Cleric used Divine Word frequently and often to just end an encounter or finish off an encounter with a resounding bang.
Great spell!

[Telwar]

My main complaints with cleric are:
* You get fewer spells added in supplements than the traditionally arcane classes do. This is primarily because cleric and druid know their entire list. It annoys me, but I understand.
* You don't get anything like a scagtrip unless you play arcana. This annoys me far more than the new spells added thing.

Otherwise, they're great. They've been nerfed from 3.5 codzilla, but so has everything else. I loved my Light cleric in what turned out to be a Curse of Strahd game (though it started out as cowboys in Eberron); that channel divinity was a standout AoE.

[sithlordnergal]

You want them to be more powerful? Stonger? What do you mean by that. Those are kind of vague.

I actually went into more detail on some of my gripes with the Cleric spell list right here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25471807&postcount=19)

Outside of spell lists, a few Subclasses need a small buff. For example, War Cleric should have their limited use Bonus Action Attack, and get Extra Attack. Maybe get Extra Attack instead of Divine Strike. Maybe replace some of their Domain Spells with the Smite Spells to make them more war-like.

Tempest Cleric has a lot of awesome abilities that activate when you deal Lightning and/or Thunder damage. But the only spells they have that deal Lightning or Thunder damage are Thunderwave, Shatter, Call Lightning, Destructive Wave, and Glyph of Warding. Now, I will admit that there aren't a ton of Thunder and Lightning spells in the PHB, but they could replace Call Lightning with Lightningbolt to make it a bit better. You're gonna use Lightningbolt a lot more often than you will Call Lightning due Call Lightning's restrictions on where it can be cast. And since there aren't many spells that deal Thunder/Lightning damage, have Wrath of the Storm scale. Make it deal more damage, maybe from 2d8 to 6d8 over the course of leveling.

Knowledge Clerics: Give them Expertise like a Rogue since they're supposed to be the Cleric Skill Monkey.


But honestly, fixing their spell list would give them the biggest boost. I know we don't want to go back to the days of CoDzilla back in 3.5, but they removed so many spells from the Cleric that were on the 3.5 spell list. Spells that me and my DMs are consistently surprised they lack. Though I outlined that in the post I linked.




Scouting and recon is a thing, or it used to be a part of the exploration pillar. If you play mostly 'knock the door down' style games little stuff like that can be lost: what spell do I prepare since I know we are seeking/hunting {X}

I have been able to do a little bit of scouting and recon with the Divination spells the Cleric has. But I've found Clerics don't really have that many good options to scout or do recon with their main spell list. They do have a loooot of Divination spells that could help...but a lot of them either have weird requirements, like only answering about events that will happen within a few days, or its up the DM to give you special info based on what Deities know. I will say, I made really heavy use of spells like Scry, Legend Lore, Sending, Etherealness, Commune, and Divination to learn all I could about a powerful Dragon we're about to fight. But was unable to get any form of specifics about the Dragon's lair, precise capabilities other than the basics, special weaknesses, ect. Heck, we basically had to go into the Dragon's Lair blind because I was unable to gain any info about the lair's layout via my Divination spells.

And since I can't actually summon anything outside of Planar Ally and Summon Celestial, which I can't cast anyway because the DM made the spell component impossible to buy and has to be requisitioned from my church which I currently can't get to, I don't really have any familiars or summons that I can use to scout.

[solidork]

We had 3 characters who can cast commune in our home game at one point or another and it was very useful. Admittedly, this required the cooperation of our DM. My Warlock could commune with the gods of magic (he served a Couatl created by them) and learned a lot of stuff about enemy spell casters, the capabilities of monsters (I often asked about Blindsight/Truesight to see if it was worth it to cast Shadow of Moil) and on one memorable occasion managed to figure out who was scrying on us with some good guesses.

Giving War Clerics smite spells on thier domain list would be awful - those spells are pretty terrible. The current domain list is a little boring because its mostly cleric spells, but they're spells you're going to want to prepare almost all of the time so you're free to prepare some of your narrower options.

[diplomancer]

There are so many points to argue against in this summary.

Take an extra hour after your long rest cuz it'd be super handy? I'm sorry, I thought your character was a person, with goals and motivations and responsibilities and on and on. I bet an extra hour of sleep would be great for you, too, but I doubt you're ignoring your alarm clock and going to work an hour later than scheduled just because it would be handy!

Have you've had a good night sleep followed by a nice breakfast? Congratulations, you've had a long rest followed by a short rest. Now, maybe you can't do this every single day. But if your life was on the line every day and doing so would greatly increase your chances of survival, I can't really understand what's wrong with it.

[sithlordnergal]

Have you've had a good night sleep followed by a nice breakfast? Congratulations, you've had a long rest followed by a short rest. Now, maybe you can't do this every single day. But if your life was on the line every day and doing so would greatly increase your chances of survival, I can't really understand what's wrong with it.

XD Sorry, but that wouldn't fly with me or any DM I know. Your breakfast is a part of your Long Rest. You can't have a Short Rest immediately after a Long Rest. At my tables at least, attempts to do so will be given a hard "No", and a reminder that the DM informs you when you benefit from a Short Rest, even if you fufil the requirements for one.

Sorry to all you Clerics and Warlocks that wanna use a Short Rest resource without actually spending the resource, but you gotta do some adventuring to get that Short Rest. Probably 2 to 3 encounters worth before you get it.

[Rukelnikov]

Have you've had a good night sleep followed by a nice breakfast? Congratulations, you've had a long rest followed by a short rest. Now, maybe you can't do this every single day. But if your life was on the line every day and doing so would greatly increase your chances of survival, I can't really understand what's wrong with it.

Indeed, I used to do Extended AoA +short rest as the early morning routine of my Sorlock.


XD Sorry, but that wouldn't fly with me or any DM I know. Your breakfast is a part of your Long Rest. You can't have a Short Rest immediately after a Long Rest. At my tables at least, attempts to do so will be given a hard "No", and a reminder that the DM informs you when you benefit from a Short Rest, even if you fufil the requirements for one.

Well, if that's the case just wait until you can short rest, and start travelling afterwards.


Sorry to all you Clerics and Warlocks that wanna use a Short Rest resource without actually spending the resource, but you gotta do some adventuring to get that Short Rest. Probably 2 to 3 encounters worth before you get it.

Just wait, it doesn't take irl time, "we wait until we can short rest"

[sithlordnergal]

Well, if that's the case just wait until you can short rest, and start travelling afterwards.

Just wait, it doesn't take irl time, "we wait until we can short rest"

Yeah, that time won't come until after you've had 2 to 3 encounters. The DMs I know, myself included, don't hand out free rests, be they Long or Short. Heck, I'm a lot meaner than other DMs I know, cause a single round of combat, even if its just a single creature sniping at you from 600ft away with a Longbow via a surprise round and then running off and disappearing into the forest, is enough to end your Long Rest and potentially net you a level of Exhaustion.

You wanna short rest? Go adventure and do something that earns you that rest. You're not gonna get one from hanging around the house and doing shopping all day.

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah, that time won't come until after you've had 2 to 3 encounters. The DMs I know, myself included, don't hand out free rests, be they Long or Short. Heck, I'm a lot meaner than other DMs I know, cause a single round of combat, even if its just a single creature sniping at you from 600ft away with a Longbow via a surprise round and then running off and disappearing into the forest, is enough to end your Long Rest and potentially net you a level of Exhaustion.

That's ok


You wanna short rest? Go adventure and do something that earns you that rest. You're not gonna get one from hanging around the house and doing shopping all day.

Characters could just jog for an hour or so and then cast a spell and rest. You can of course deny this, but you would be at the same time informing everyone this isn't a ttrpg anymore, its a wargame.

[sithlordnergal]

That's ok



Characters could just jog for an hour or so and then cast a spell and rest. You can of course deny this, but you would be at the same time informing everyone this isn't a ttrpg anymore, its a wargame.

Again, a jog is not gonna cut it. I'm perfectly fine with people thinking its a wargame with rpg elements, especially if they wanna try to abuse rest mechanics. And besides, you're free to do as you like in the game, just don't expect it all to go as you planned. You don't have to go adventuring for the day. Heck, I've had entire sessions where the party went to a museum, or hung out in a city, traveled through a forest, or met up with NPC friends and helped out with minor experiments.

But those generally didn't end up taking any resources, and they never got any Short Rests during those times because they weren't needed.

If you play in one of my games, or a game with any DM I know, go in with the realization that Short Rests do not come for free. And trying to get a free short rest just to use an ability that returns on a Short Rest will fail, no matter what.

[diplomancer]

Again, a jog is not gonna cut it. I'm perfectly fine with people thinking its a wargame with rpg elements, especially if they wanna try to abuse rest mechanics. And besides, you're free to do as you like in the game, just don't expect it all to go as you planned. You don't have to go adventuring for the day. Heck, I've had entire sessions where the party went to a museum, or hung out in a city, traveled through a forest, or met up with NPC friends and helped out with minor experiments.

But those generally didn't end up taking any resources, and they never got any Short Rests during those times because they weren't needed.

If you play in one of my games, or a game with any DM I know, go in with the realization that Short Rests do not come for free. And trying to get a free short rest just to use an ability that returns on a Short Rest will fail, no matter what.

Which is exactly why it looks like WotC is going to get rid of short rests altogether. DMs seem to be, for some weird reason, prejudiced against them... and then I usually see these same DMs being totally fine with the party long resting once the Wizard's spent all his spell slots in two or three fights...

Looks like Short Rests were a mistake.

Edit: also, it's good to remind what the rules say about Short Rests:


A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

So, if a DM wants PCs NOT to Short Rest after a Long Rest, he has to make sure this doesn't happen. Every single day. He has full control of the world, so it's definitely doable. But it will start to seem awfully artificial.

Truly, if you don't like that sort of thing, just go for Gritty Realism; it's a lot harder to justify adding 8 more hours of resting to your day than one.

[strangebloke]

Which is exactly why it looks like WotC is going to get rid of short rests altogether. DMs seem to be, for some weird reason, prejudiced against them... and then I usually see these same DMs being totally fine with the party long resting once the Wizard's spent all his spell slots in two or three fights...

Looks like Short Rests were a mistake.

Eh, I don't know. As implemented, the system contains mistakes, but DMs failing to apply changes to fix those mistakes doesn't mean the system as a whole is broken.

[Rukelnikov]

Eh, I don't know. As implemented, the system contains mistakes, but DMs failing to apply changes to fix those mistakes doesn't mean the system as a whole is broken.

This is pretty close to Oberoni fallacy, its not broken because it can be fixed? It's clearly not unplayable or anything like that, but if a system need fixing to work, then its broken.

[Psyren]

Oberoni is a crock. Ask three people what's broken and you'll get 5 different answers, and if you're playing any system that doesnt need DM intervention to work, you're playing a board game.

[sithlordnergal]

Which is exactly why it looks like WotC is going to get rid of short rests altogether. DMs seem to be, for some weird reason, prejudiced against them... and then I usually see these same DMs being totally fine with the party long resting once the Wizard's spent all his spell slots in two or three fights...

Looks like Short Rests were a mistake.


I wouldn't say Short Rests are a mistake, nor would I say DMs are prejudiced against Short Rests, not even myself, and if a party has managed to go through enough encounters and resources that they actually do need a Short Rest I'll let them have one. But DMs are prejudiced against such blatant rule abuse. Technically, you could try to take a short rest right after waking up, allowing the Twilight Cleric to use their Channel Divinity and the Warlock to have Hex at the start of the day. Technically, you can also attempt to Long Rest after every single encounter. Its on the DM to make sure to reign such things in, otherwise the balance of the entire game breaks. We know how 5-minute adventuring days ruin the game balance, but allowing Short Rests whenever does the same thing.

I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Long Rest if they've only completed 1 or 2 encounters, just like I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Short Rest if they only use a single, Short Rest recharging ability.




So, if a DM wants PCs NOT to Short Rest after a Long Rest, he has to make sure this doesn't happen. Every single day. He has full control of the world, so it's definitely doable. But it will start to seem awfully artificial.

Truly, if you don't like that sort of thing, just go for Gritty Realism; it's a lot harder to justify adding 8 more hours of resting to your day than one.

No need for Gritty Realism. Just inform the players that, because they're still well rested they simply can't benefit from a Short Rest. As the DM its on you to keep these things balanced. If a party is starting to take a Short or Long Rest after every single encounter, just stop giving them the benefits of those rests.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have been able to do a little bit of scouting and recon with the Divination spells the Cleric has. But I've found Clerics don't really have that many good options to scout or do recon with their main spell list. Scouting and recon is a PARTY function. I am not asking you to make a cleric a scout. My point is that if your party does exploration and recon/intel gathering first, rather than just 'kick in the door' then what you prepare can be tailored to the threat.

Yeah, I think that way, sue me. Career military, and Combat as War is my approach.

[diplomancer]

I wouldn't say Short Rests are a mistake, nor would I say DMs are prejudiced against Short Rests, not even myself, and if a party has managed to go through enough encounters and resources that they actually do need a Short Rest I'll let them have one. But DMs are prejudiced against such blatant rule abuse. Technically, you could try to take a short rest right after waking up, allowing the Twilight Cleric to use their Channel Divinity and the Warlock to have Hex at the start of the day. Technically, you can also attempt to Long Rest after every single encounter. Its on the DM to make sure to reign such things in, otherwise the balance of the entire game breaks. We know how 5-minute adventuring days ruin the game balance, but allowing Short Rests whenever does the same thing.

I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Long Rest if they've only completed 1 or 2 encounters, just like I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Short Rest if they only use a single, Short Rest recharging ability.







As I've said, my experience is quite different. With one notable exception, DMs who say "no you don't get a short rest" even though there's plenty of time, and literally zero time pressure after a Long Rest*, but then are quite alright with players getting a LR after a few fights (usually, because those few fights took two or more sessions, and so they don't have any idea anymore of how long it's been since the last long rest).

*really, this is like waking up, going to the gym, and then getting breakfast before going to work. It shouldn't break the game, and, in fact, it doesn't. That's certainly not the reason why Twilight Cleric is busted, but it does explain why so many players think Warlocks and Monks suck.


No need for Gritty Realism. Just inform the players that, because they're still well rested they simply can't benefit from a Short Rest. As the DM its on you to keep these things balanced. If a party is starting to take a Short or Long Rest after every single encounter, just stop giving them the benefits of those rests.

Yeah; "not being well-rested" is not a requirement for a Short Rest anywhere in the rules (check the requirements, I posted it right above). So saying "you're too well rested to get a Short Rest" is strictly a houserule. And if my DM insisted on it, I'd be tempted to say something like "ok, I'm sprinting in my Plate Armor for 30 seconds, am I still well-rested?" And if the DM said "Yes", I'd suggest that he sprint for 30 seconds (no Plate Armor required) and then check if he can benefit from a rest...

[sithlordnergal]

Scouting and recon is a PARTY function. I am not asking you to make a cleric a scout. My point is that if your party does exploration and recon/intel gathering first, rather than just 'kick in the door' then what you prepare can be tailored to the threat.

Yeah, I think that way, sue me. Career military, and Combat as War is my approach.

I do agree that scouting is a party function, but what I'm saying that the Cleric doesn't actually add very much to that scouting/recon bit. Not compared to a Wizard or Druid. Clerics do get some nice spells for scouting via their Divination spells...but then again, Wizards and Druids get most of those Divination spells, on top of things that make it easier for your other party members to scout.

The only spell Clerics have that's similar to Invisibility is Etherealness, which is a 7th level spell and you have to cast it at 8th level to cast it on other party members. They don't have anything similar to Pass Without Trace, no Familiars or Beasts they can bond with to send out either on their own or to assist, nothing to speak with the animals nearby, to communicate at long distances outside of Sending, no actual summons to aid in it, no Charms or Illusions to slip past the guards. No spells to grant special movement options outside of Water Walk, not even a spell to help open locked doors or make an entrance of your own.

[tKUUNK]

Just throwing this out there....but maybe what you actually crave is clerics being epic healers again? Especially if comparing with clerics of 3.5e.

For one thing, magical healing used to matter way more. Sure, yo-yo healing still matters in 5e...there's that. :/ Clerics in 3.5e had that solid "combat healer" role in the party, PLUS they could handle non-healing roles on top of it. And in 3.5e, I remember heals being more powerful and combat-altering. Magical healing just doesn't seem to have that same oomph anymore. It's become more reactive than pro-active....and very often there are more important things to do mid-fight than toss cures.

In 5e, they- arguably anyway- have a more "generalist" feel with no strong identity....funny enough, this is similar to the complaint many have had about the ranger...why is it a class?

[Rukelnikov]

Oberoni is a crock. Ask three people what's broken and you'll get 5 different answers, and if you're playing any system that doesnt need DM intervention to work, you're playing a board game.

Needing and wanting are different things, the leveling up system doesn't really need to be changed, but I want to, so I do.

[sithlordnergal]

As I've said, my experience is quite different. With one notable exception, DMs who say "no you don't get a short rest" even though there's plenty of time, and literally zero time pressure after a Long Rest*, but then are quite alright with players getting a LR after a few fights (usually, because those few fights took two or more sessions, and so they don't have any idea anymore of how long it's been since the last long rest).

*really, this is like waking up, going to the gym, and then getting breakfast before going to work. It shouldn't break the game, and, in fact, it doesn't. That's certainly not the reason why Twilight Cleric is busted, but it does explain why so many players think Warlocks and Monks suck.


The experience with DMs that allow Long Rests whenever is very much a DM issue. And is one of the big things I notice whenever DMs complain about how powerful Paladin Smites are. That's less an issue with the resting rules, and more an issue with the DM not knowing how to force pacing. A solid rule to start with is "End of session does not mean Long Rest".

As for it breaking, I'm less worried about the Twilight Cleric and Warlock, and more concerned about classes like the Druid, or multiclasses. Yeah, doesn't break much if you give the party 1d6+Cleric level Temp HP at the start of the day, nor does it break anything if the Warlock starts their day with Hex. On their own, that's fine. And I'll be honest, I don't actually think Monks "suck" due to their Ki limitations. I've played plenty of Monks, I think I only ran out of Ki once, and that was because I was using Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike every round to keep a boss pinned down. Warlocks though...yeah, they need an extra spell slot to fix them. Only class in the game where Short Rest and Long Rest resources run out before literally everyone else. @_@

Those classes are fine. My concern rests on classes like the Druid, which can Wild Shape twice per short rest, and remain in that Wild Shape for a number of hours equal to half their level. That's basically giving the Moon Druid a free use of their Wild Shape at the start of every day. Yeah, it might not always be advantageous to be Wild Shaped RP wise, but take it from someone who had a level 20 Moon Druid in AL, Moon Druids do not care. And its not just Moon Druids either, Wild Shape is such an amazing utility ability, I can't see a reason why Druids wouldn't start their day Wild Shaping if they could instantly refresh it.

The same holds true for the Sheppard Druid too, come to think of it. Their Spirit Totem is a once per Short Rest use, and they can use it to give themselves and the party Temp HP equal 5+Druid Level. Then Short Rest and later on use the Spirit Totem to just drop massive amounts of healing to the entire party via the Unicorn Spirit.

Then you have certain fun multiclass shenanigans', the most potent of which would be the Sorlock. They can wake up, turn their two Warlock spell slots into Sorcery Points, convert those into Spell Slots, Short Rest, and poof. They now have extra Spell slots. And if you make a habit of allowing Short Rests whenever...Well that kind of just snowballs, doesn't it? You may as well have the coffeelock, only no need for coffee cause you're doing it between Long Rests.

And its not like you can say "Hey, the Twilight Cleric gets to have a Short Rest, but you don't, despite you doing the exact same thing". At that point it feels like you're targeting a specific player for playing a specific class, which is not something you want to do. It becomes far easier to just put a blanket "No, here's how the restricted rests work, you can't gain the benefit of a Short Rest whenever you feel like it".




Yeah; "not being well-rested" is not a requirement for a Short Rest anywhere in the rules (check the requirements, I posted it right above). So saying "you're too well rested to get a Short Rest" is strictly a houserule. And if my DM insisted on it, I'd be tempted to say something like "ok, I'm sprinting in my Plate Armor for 30 seconds, am I still well-rested?" And if the DM said "Yes", I'd suggest that he sprint for 30 seconds (no Plate Armor required) and then check if he can benefit from a rest...

For that argument I would say go buy a hand crossbow, then accurately shoot it 9 times in 6 seconds, then 5 times every 6 seconds, for 1 minute, for a total of 54 shots in 1 minute. Ah, correction, level 20 Fighters can Action Surge twice. So a total of 58 accurate shots from a Hand Crossbow in 1 minute. But maybe using a feat is unfair, how about a Longbow instead. 48 accurate shots from a Longbow at a target 150ft away in 1 minute. Can you do it? No? Then I think we can agree that the Humans in DnD are superhuman, and therefore won't need a rest from a jog in heavy armor.

[Rukelnikov]

I wouldn't say Short Rests are a mistake, nor would I say DMs are prejudiced against Short Rests, not even myself, and if a party has managed to go through enough encounters and resources that they actually do need a Short Rest I'll let them have one. But DMs are prejudiced against such blatant rule abuse. Technically, you could try to take a short rest right after waking up, allowing the Twilight Cleric to use their Channel Divinity and the Warlock to have Hex at the start of the day. Technically, you can also attempt to Long Rest after every single encounter. Its on the DM to make sure to reign such things in, otherwise the balance of the entire game breaks. We know how 5-minute adventuring days ruin the game balance, but allowing Short Rests whenever does the same thing.

I understand that, but denying the mechanical rest, when the narrative rest is happening, creates a disconnect that's almost irredemable, we have been resting for a while, but our characters don't feel refreshed, so... what's going on here?


I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Long Rest if they've only completed 1 or 2 encounters, just like I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Short Rest if they only use a single, Short Rest recharging ability.

I mean, if there's an in world reason for that, then fine, but otherwise, its again this disconnect. Our characters can go to sleep, but they won't feel better. If I was to implement that, I'd have the players being cursed, by something, likely the BBEG, and that's preventing them from receing refreshment from rest.

[sithlordnergal]

I understand that, but denying the mechanical rest, when the narrative rest is happening, creates a disconnect that's almost irredemable, we have been resting for a while, but our characters don't feel refreshed, so... what's going on here?



I mean, if there's an in world reason for that, then fine, but otherwise, its again this disconnect. Our characters can go to sleep, but they won't feel better. If I was to implement that, I'd have the players being cursed, by something, likely the BBEG, and that's preventing them from receing refreshment from rest.

I mean, sometimes there is a mechanical disconnect in order to keep things balanced. As fun as DnD is as a TTRPG, and as good as RPing can be, you occasionally need to tell the players "Hey, I don't have an RP reason for this to happen, but there's a really important mechanical reason it has to happen this way, otherwise the game breaks and no-one has fun". Usually its something you bring up at Session 0, that way the party goes in knowing they won't benefit from spamming rests, and they likely won't try it. And by setting it up as a Session 0 thing, you can tailor their expectations.

I had something like that happen recently. Invisibility states "Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have advantage." The party was fighting a Beholder with permanent Invisibility, and since its Large the Monk managed to grapple it and climb onto it. The next round the Monk went to make their attacks, but was annoyed that they still made their attacks at Disadvantage because, as they said, "I'm on top of it, and grappling it, I know where it is". But Invisible is Invisible, and if I removed the benefits of Invisibility in that case, then I'd have to remove it for all similar cases.

This includes the case where the Gloomstalker Ranger, who is effectively Invisible in Dim Light or Darkness, was bitten, pulled into the mouth of a giant, undead dinosaur, and bitten again the next turn. Narratively that Dino had about as much reason to ignore the Disadvantage from Invisibility as the Monk did, maybe even more so cause it technically shouldn't be able to see things in its own mouth, but it has advantage on things in there instead. But because I didn't change the Invisibility rules that time, the Ranger managed to avoid being crit for 8d12 damage, followed by an immediate Swallow, which would have killed them.

[Rukelnikov]

I mean, sometimes there is a mechanical disconnect in order to keep things balanced. As fun as DnD is as a TTRPG, and as good as RPing can be, you occasionally need to tell the players "Hey, I don't have an RP reason for this to happen, but there's a really important mechanical reason it has to happen this way, otherwise the game breaks and no-one has fun". Usually its something you bring up at Session 0, that way the party goes in knowing they won't benefit from spamming rests, and they likely won't try it. And by setting it up as a Session 0 thing, you can tailor their expectations.

Yeah, that's usually a convenient thing to do.


I had something like that happen recently. Invisibility states "Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have advantage." The party was fighting a Beholder with permanent Invisibility, and since its Large the Monk managed to grapple it and climb onto it. The next round the Monk went to make their attacks, but was annoyed that they still made their attacks at Disadvantage because, as they said, "I'm on top of it, and grappling it, I know where it is". But Invisible is Invisible, and if I removed the benefits of Invisibility in that case, then I'd have to remove it for all cases.

I understand that, but there are cases, where it breaks, like, if a creature with 10 reach is grappling me, and I only have reach 5, I shouldn't be able to attack it, well, it's physically holding me somehow, we are in contact, I drive my sword thru whatever part of the creature im in contact with. In the monks example, I'd probably have ruled adv due to being mounted on its back grabbing it by the eyestalks, so it counters the invisibilities disadv, straight roll. I don't think your ruling was wrong, but I generally like to incentivize players doing stuff like climbing on top of the beholders back, instead of standing right next to it swinging their weapons turn after turn.


This includes the case where the Gloomstalker Ranger, who is effectively Invisible in Dim Light or Darkness, was bitten, pulled into the mouth of a giant, undead dinosaur, and bitten again the next turn. Narratively that Dino had about as much reason to ignore the Disadvantage from Invisibility as the Monk did, maybe even more so cause it technically shouldn't be able to see things in its own mouth. But because I didn't change the Invisibility rules that time, the Ranger managed to avoid being crit for 8d12 damage, followed by an immediate Swallow, which would have killed them.

That's fair, and btw I don't think you are being unfair. But I think it may be a bit of a confrontational DM style, because by deciding when they gain refreshment from resting you are basically directly taking agency from the players away, and sometimes players may interpret that as a bit of Player vs DM, wherther that's the case or not.

[sithlordnergal]

Yeah, that's usually a convenient thing to do.


Yeah, I typically make sure players know my rules on resting well beforehand, in Session 0. Now, it doesn't prevent players from trying it...I kind of had to give my players a push in and out of game to force them into the final dungeon instead of spending 5 days resting in a dino, undead, and Yuan-Ti infested city, all because they had levels of Exhaustion, with one player in the party having 5. Though they only had 4 levels before entering said dungeon, so they did get 1 long rest in. But still, it sets up an expectation, which is important.




I understand that, but there are cases, where it breaks, like, if a creature with 10 reach is grappling me, and I only have reach 5, I shouldn't be able to attack it, well, it's physically holding me somehow, we are in contact, I drive my sword thru whatever part of the creature im in contact with. In the monks example, I'd probably have ruled adv due to being mounted on its back grabbing it by the eyestalks, so it counters the invisibilities disadv, straight roll. I don't think your ruling was wrong, but I generally like to incentivize players doing stuff like climbing on top of the beholders back, instead of standing right next to it swinging their weapons turn after turn.


That's fair, and btw I don't think you are being unfair. But I think it may be a bit of a confrontational DM style, because by deciding when they gain refreshment from resting you are basically directly taking agency from the players away, and sometimes players may interpret that as a bit of Player vs DM, wherther that's the case or not.

Oh I love having my players do creative things too. Heck, in the fight against that Beholder the party was having a ton of trouble since it could see them, and target them with eye rays. Eventually the Ranger realized they could cast Fog Cloud in the room to shut down all of the Beholder's abilities, then the Monk jumped onto it from there to call out where the Beholder was at all times. And the party, and Monk, did gain a major benefit. Until that moment in time, no-one knew exactly where the Beholder was after it took its turn, since it was in a room with a very high ceiling.

I'm just very wary of doing something like letting people ignore the effects of a Condition, because my number 1 rule is "If players can benefit from a thing, so can the NPCs". And I doubt the Gloomstalker would be very happy if they lost their Invisible status every time they end up grappled and restrained by a big monster due to it making narrative sense.

Same when it comes to rests, I'm very, VERY wary of giving Sorlocks, Druids, and similar classes access to free Short Rests. Because I know just how much a Moon Druid in Elemental Form with both their Wild Shapes available can do. Heck, when Tomb of Annihilation came out I played a Moon Druid. I killed the final boss in about two to three rounds while taking minimal damage...all because the DM allowed us to take a Short Rest before fighting it. I rested in my Fire Elemental form that I had used in the previous encounter, used its Hit Dice to heal up, then dragged the boss into lava to kill it via grappling. DM tried to break the grapple by breaking my Wild Shape...buuut I just went right back into Fire Elemental form and dragged it back down.

But because I can't look at a party and say "The Cleric and Warlock can short rest as soon as they wake up, but the Druid and Sorlock can't." without looking like I am very deliberately targeting the Druid and Sorlock, I just have it as a blanket rule.

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah, I typically make sure players know my rules on resting well beforehand, in Session 0. Now, it doesn't prevent players from trying it...I kind of had to give my players a push in and out of game to force them into the final dungeon instead of spending 5 days resting in a dino, undead, and Yuan-Ti infested city, all because they had levels of Exhaustion, with one player in the party having 5. Though they only had 4 levels before entering said dungeon, so they did get 1 long rest in. But still, it sets up an expectation, which is important.





Oh I love having my players do creative things too. Heck, in the fight against that Beholder the party was having a ton of trouble since it could see them, and target them with eye rays. Eventually the Ranger realized they could cast Fog Cloud in the room to shut down all of the Beholder's abilities, then the Monk jumped onto it from there to call out where the Beholder was at all times. I'm just very wary of doing something like letting people ignore the effects of a Condition because my number 1 rule is "If players can benefit from a thing, so can the NPCs". And I doubt the Gloomstalker would be very happy if they lost their Invisible status every time they end up grappled and restrained by a big monster due to it making narrative sense...

Well, We may have different approaches, for me a system is like a language, when a player says, "I ran at the enemy shouting curses and slam my warhammer against their shield!" I translate it to the system, "if within 30 ft the PC moves and takes the Attack action, otherwise it can't be completed this round". The thing is, players describe what their PCs do, they may know how the DM will make the translations cause most of them we've agreed upon, hitting something with my weapon is the attack action. However, the decisions we take are based on what our characters are experiencing and how we would interpret them irl, we know that if say, we have someone grabbed by the neck, that person being invisible doesn't seem like it would make hitting him noticeably harder.

And the problem appears when the situation described by the system after the translation seems, radically different from the one it translated from.

[kazaryu]

Sooo, yeah let me go into more specifics. So, looking over the Cleric spell list, I've noticed a lot of things missing that other full casters, and some half-casters, have. Heck, I've noticed a lot of things that the old 3.5 Clerics had that the Cleric now lacks. Now, I'm fine with Clerics not having blasty spells, they didn't really do blasty spells in 3.5 either, and that should remain firmly in the hands of arcane casters. However, they're missing what I feel are some pretty key spell options in their repertoire. Do note, I'm only going over the base spell list, not Domain spells. The Domain spells can help, but you can't get every single domain spell on a single Cleric. If you take one Domain to shore up your spell list, you lose out on the rest:

summarized as general lack of spells you'd expect them to have. I did read them all, just snipping it down for formatting ok, yeah that makes sense, comparing it to older editions. honestly, in some ways i agree with you, in other ways not. spell lists, kind of in general, are weird for me. i can't list many specifics off the top of my head, but there have been several times i've asked myself 'what...why *doesn't* x class have that spell. including clerics. i definitely agree with you that its weird clerics can summon celestials but not undead/fiends. Fey it makes sense. clerics are more outer planar focused, druids are more inner planar focused. undead i include simply because they aren't really thematically tied to the shadowfell...that seems to be more of a detail that got tacked on specifically for banishment. With that said...i don't think that makes them a weak class. Quite the opposite, i actually like (with exceptions) how the cleric has a strong theme, and then based on subclass you can expand that theme. i think the 'problem' is more one of 'spell list isn't as generalized as other classes'...specifically wizards. but i think thats more a problem with wizard design than cleric. again, i DO wish there'd been a bit more obvious of a reason why some of these thematic spells were removed from clerics. or why some weren't given to them...like i can understand things like wall of water/stone/air. those do feel more druid/arcane (imo, even if they were cleric spells previously). but wall of light wasn't added to the cleric list in XGE? what?




I wouldn't call Cleric a bad class, they seem like they're designed pretty well. Its not like the old, pre-buff PHB Ranger where you could really tell that it was not a good class. But at the same time, I don't feel like it really stands out compared to the other full casters in the game. Going through the Cleric's spell list, they have a really heavy focus on Divination spells. In fact, they have basically every single Divination spell in the game that involves asking the DM about some future event, finding hidden information/lore, or watching creatures/places. They also have every single healing spell in the game, baring a few minor exceptions. this is essentially my point. the cleric class is actually really well designed and fairly well balanced. its just when you compare it to...say, the wizard spell list, it look weak. but thats a problem wiht the wizard..not the cleric (imo).


And while their subclass abilities are extremely varied and they have a ton of subclasses, there really aren't that many that stand out against other classes. For example, consider the Twilight Cleric, one of the best Cleric Subclasses in the game, and all thanks to its Channel Divinity feature that lets them give out a ton of Temp HP for 1 minute. But uh...wouldn't you say that the Shepard Druid's Spirit Totem is pretty similar? Sure, the Spirit totem can only ever be used once per Short Rest, while the Twilight Cleric gains more uses of Channel Divinity over time. But outside of that one limitation, its basically the Twilight Cleric's Channel Ability, but a bit better cause it can do three things, its not centered on you, and you can move it up to 60 feet with a Bonus Action. More to the point, the Unicorn Spirit lets you heal everyone of your choice within that Aura, all at the cost of healing anyone, anywhere with a spell slot.

And while the rest of the Twilight Druid's abilities are more party wide support and utility while the Sheppard Druid focuses on buffing their summons, they are on par with each other.
i...heavily disagree with the assertion that subclasses don't really stand out. they have several unique abilities.

tempest: slightly weaker, but otherwise independent resourced hellish rebuke. and the ability to maximize thinder/lightning damage. now, obviously this requires multiclassing to fully leverage. however, unlike the evoker this isn't limited to lvl 5 spells and lower. and it comes online at level 2. and it doesn't hurt you to use it more than once. of course...glyph of warding is really the only spell you have natively that deals thunder/lightning damage. but transmuted spell is fairly cheap metamagic...

grave: path to the grave: how many subclasses can just straight up give someone vulnerability?

knowledge: gives you 2 (limited) expertise* and a floating proficiency. also gets you cheaper suggestion.

idk...i guess its just a difference in viewpoint, i don't really see how the subclasses don't really standout. most of their features are fairly unique, and in many cases, gameplay defining.


i mean, there are 2 big things that make twilight clerics ability better, and 2 small things
1. it doesn't cost any extra action economy to perform the healing. you have to spend susequent actions or BA's as a druid.
2. it doesn't cost extra resources to get the healing. shepared druid has to pump spell slots in order to get the extra healing. specifically they have to spend spell slots on healing spells. which, in combat, tends to be both inefficent from a spell slot perspective, and from an action economy perspective.
and the small things:
1. the twilight sanctuary uses just the clerics movement to get shuffled around, rather than a BA. yes, this also means the cleric tends to have to be closer to danger, but, honestly, as a cleric you want to maximize the damage spread through your party anyway, since they lack HoT. their big out of combat healing is an AoE burst heal, which is really only *good* if damage is spread through the party. so thats not a major downside.
2. cleric ability is THP, not healing. the importance of that, is that there are abilities in the game that prevent healing...but none that i know of prevent gaining THP. obviously niche, but thats why i listed it under minor.

ultimately, yes, twilight sanctuary accomplishes essentially the same thing as unicorn spirit...but unicorn spirit requires a much more constant investment in order to get the effect out of it. Thats part of the reason its so broken. its not *just* that its a stupid amount of damage reduction. its *cheap*, stupid amounts of damage reduction.

[animorte]

- What I'm gathering from all this to narrow down the OP's problem is that you would rather not play a superior supportive character, instead preferring more aggressive playstyle. That's fine.
- Everyone's points about stuff being able to match in healing in various ways is somewhat irrelevant since there have been far more points in threads here shutting down healing in general because its better done Out-Of-Combat.
- Ultimately we have all unanimously agreed that Clerics, hands down, are the most front-loaded class in the game. Tier 1, unmatched. Tier 2, other things start being able to compete. After that it's more than likely about your level of optimization and piloting the PC. I think its fair that other classes get the opportunity to start taking over a bit in the mid-late game. So another point is likely that you've rarely (or never) start campaigns below level 3.


As far as I've been able to experience in play, as long as you have a Paladin, Bard, or Druid, not even all three, just one of them, they easily take the role of the Cleric. Heck, whenever I DM and my party has a Cleric and one of those three classes, I find that the Cleric ends up being the third wheel of the group.
So honestly, what is this thing that I'm missing? Am I just undervaluing Divination spells? I mean, I've been playing for years, and never really been impressed by or made much use of Divination spells because they don't give enough information to be really handy.
- Of course in a group that already has all of those classes or any 2 of them, you're going to feel like its just overlapping and not contributing.
- The only time I have witnessed those classes consistently outshining the Cleric is when the Cleric is being played by a much less experienced individual.
- Yes, undervaluing Divination. Literally the ONLY reason for 3.5e god-Wizards. You can't prepare for literally everything all the time. Divination provides that information.


And how about Trickery Cleric?
I think all those spells add a lot of versatility to the base Cleric, and although not particularly so good for your action economy, you get several unique spells to double down your survivability.
Yes, love it! But here's the fun of it: overall the Cleric has excellent action economy to begin with. Why not switch it up sometimes?


Peace Domain makes their party better at fighting. Wait, what?
That's clever, much appreciated.


See, normally I would agree with that, but I also have experience with other classes that are powerful but don't have what I look for in a game. Personally, I'm not a fan of Artificers, Barbarians, or Warlocks. They just don't fit my play style at all.
Yet I can look over their abilities and spell lists and its pretty easy to see just how good they are when I compare them to other classes. Heck, the Artificer can easily break a game in half if they're built right.
But when I start comparing Clerics to the other full casters in the game, or even the Paladin which is a Half-Caster, I'm just left wondering why aren't they stronger?
- It's a lot easier to screw up your Artificer/Warlock/(Barb not-so-much) build than a Cleric, to be fair. Clerics are difficult to genuinely build poorly on accident.
- Why aren't Clerics stronger? Because they wanted other classes to not suffer from a Cleric in the party just because it might be better at everything than everybody else.


Scouting and recon is a PARTY function. I am not asking you to make a cleric a scout. My point is that if your party does exploration and recon/intel gathering first, rather than just 'kick in the door' then what you prepare can be tailored to the threat.
You mean not running in blind and overconfident? Preparation is silly and DM's never throw curveballs (I mean, some literally don't).

[diplomancer]

The experience with DMs that allow Long Rests whenever is very much a DM issue. And is one of the big things I notice whenever DMs complain about how powerful Paladin Smites are. That's less an issue with the resting rules, and more an issue with the DM not knowing how to force pacing. A solid rule to start with is "End of session does not mean Long Rest".

As for it breaking, I'm less worried about the Twilight Cleric and Warlock, and more concerned about classes like the Druid, or multiclasses. Yeah, doesn't break much if you give the party 1d6+Cleric level Temp HP at the start of the day, nor does it break anything if the Warlock starts their day with Hex. On their own, that's fine. And I'll be honest, I don't actually think Monks "suck" due to their Ki limitations. I've played plenty of Monks, I think I only ran out of Ki once, and that was because I was using Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike every round to keep a boss pinned down. Warlocks though...yeah, they need an extra spell slot to fix them. Only class in the game where Short Rest and Long Rest resources run out before literally everyone else. @_@

Those classes are fine. My concern rests on classes like the Druid, which can Wild Shape twice per short rest, and remain in that Wild Shape for a number of hours equal to half their level. That's basically giving the Moon Druid a free use of their Wild Shape at the start of every day. Yeah, it might not always be advantageous to be Wild Shaped RP wise, but take it from someone who had a level 20 Moon Druid in AL, Moon Druids do not care. And its not just Moon Druids either, Wild Shape is such an amazing utility ability, I can't see a reason why Druids wouldn't start their day Wild Shaping if they could instantly refresh it.

The same holds true for the Sheppard Druid too, come to think of it. Their Spirit Totem is a once per Short Rest use, and they can use it to give themselves and the party Temp HP equal 5+Druid Level. Then Short Rest and later on use the Spirit Totem to just drop massive amounts of healing to the entire party via the Unicorn Spirit.

Then you have certain fun multiclass shenanigans', the most potent of which would be the Sorlock. They can wake up, turn their two Warlock spell slots into Sorcery Points, convert those into Spell Slots, Short Rest, and poof. They now have extra Spell slots. And if you make a habit of allowing Short Rests whenever...Well that kind of just snowballs, doesn't it? You may as well have the coffeelock, only no need for coffee cause you're doing it between Long Rests.

And its not like you can say "Hey, the Twilight Cleric gets to have a Short Rest, but you don't, despite you doing the exact same thing". At that point it feels like you're targeting a specific player for playing a specific class, which is not something you want to do. It becomes far easier to just put a blanket "No, here's how the restricted rests work, you can't gain the benefit of a Short Rest whenever you feel like it".

Fair enough, though I disagree. If some abilities get broken with Short Rests, and you have to houserule Short Rests to stop them, why not houserule the abilities themselves? For instance, you can houserule that Druids that rest in Wildshape only get back one use of it (it still allows the problem you've mentioned of getting Wildshape in the morning, but I'd say that getting locked out of Roleplaying is balancing enough... If you don't think that's a big deal, he's also not casting Pass Without a Trace on the party until tier 4, which is definitely a big deal.). You can rule as Jeremy Crawford suggested, and say that Pact Magic slots can only be used to cast spells. All of that without saying "you don't get a Short Rest".




For that argument I would say go buy a hand crossbow, then accurately shoot it 9 times in 6 seconds, then 5 times every 6 seconds, for 1 minute, for a total of 54 shots in 1 minute. Ah, correction, level 20 Fighters can Action Surge twice. So a total of 58 accurate shots from a Hand Crossbow in 1 minute. But maybe using a feat is unfair, how about a Longbow instead. 48 accurate shots from a Longbow at a target 150ft away in 1 minute. Can you do it? No? Then I think we can agree that the Humans in DnD are superhuman, and therefore won't need a rest from a jog in heavy armor.

I didn't say jog, I said sprint. And the game has rules for that (under Chases). After less than a minute, even with a 20 Constitution, you're making Saving Throws to avoid Exhaustion. Even if your Constitution Saving Throw bonus is so high that you autopass them, I'd say if you're making Saving Throws to avoid Exhaustion, you're anything but "well rested".

[Psyren]

Needing and wanting are different things, the leveling up system doesn't really need to be changed, but I want to, so I do.

Exactly - it's not broken, like strangebloke said. You may want to make changes and that's fine, but "broken" is a much more severe (and unwarranted) judgement

[sithlordnergal]

Fair enough, though I disagree. If some abilities get broken with Short Rests, and you have to houserule Short Rests to stop them, why not houserule the abilities themselves? For instance, you can houserule that Druids that rest in Wildshape only get back one use of it (it still allows the problem you've mentioned of getting Wildshape in the morning, but I'd say that getting locked out of Roleplaying is balancing enough... If you don't think that's a big deal, he's also not casting Pass Without a Trace on the party until tier 4, which is definitely a big deal.). You can rule as Jeremy Crawford suggested, and say that Pact Magic slots can only be used to cast spells. All of that without saying "you don't get a Short Rest".

Ahh, but why make a ton of small house rules in an effort to fix every single abuse and potential abuse, houserules that typically change how classes and spell slots fundamentally work, when I can apply a single general rule that fixes them all at once instead? Especially when I don't know every single combination that could cause trouble. I may have memorized most of the game, but I don't know how every single combination works.

Preventing a short rest immediately after a long rest doesn't break anything, and out of all the classes in the game, only one has trouble when working under rules that limit how many Short and Long Rests you can take. And its pretty easy to patch that up with the Warlock, just give them a 3rd spell slot. Or, if you don't want to homebrew the Warlock, give them a Rod of the Pact Keeper. I find doing either of those things fixes their resource issue.

Hehehe, and not gonna lie...I can see Moon Druids not being too concerned about any of that. Heck, who cares about RP restrictions and not casting spells when you can be an animal and act like the party pet. x3




I didn't say jog, I said sprint. And the game has rules for that (under Chases). After less than a minute, even with a 20 Constitution, you're making Saving Throws to avoid Exhaustion. Even if your Constitution Saving Throw bonus is so high that you autopass them, I'd say if you're making Saving Throws to avoid Exhaustion, you're anything but "well rested".

Ohhh, you mean the chase rules? I mean, you can do that I guess. Still won't net you a Short Rest on its own though. I'm not concerned if it doesn't make 100% sense in the world. Verisimilitude is part of my job, but if I have to sacrifice some verisimilitude in order to keep rests balanced, I will.

It doesn't make narrative sense as to why you'd fail a Long Rest just for rolling initative and being shot once by a sniper 600ft away. Narrativly you were only awake for about 1 minute tops. But that's how I read the Long Rest interruption rules, an hour of walking or combat, any combat, even for 1 round, breaks a Long Rest. And afterwards you gotta make a Con save versus Exhaustion.

Does it make little sense narrativly? Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. Can it break verisimilitude? Most likely. Do I still run it that way? Yup, because it gives me a super simple, but extremely powerful, tool to help pace those Long Rests. Players can't just rest Long Rest after every encounter in a hostile place, because they know if they're found they'll fail their rest and will potentially have a level of Exhaustion.

This is particularly handy in Tomb of Annihilation, since you can't leave the dungeon and are trapped till you finish it. The players have found a safe place they can rest, but they also know up front that they're being watched, and every time they rest after using it once they have a chance of that spot, and them, being found.

[Speely]

Mechanically, clerics are silly good. Like, REALLY good. Even writing off the (imo) OP Twilight and Peace clerics, just upcasting Spirit Guardians in a party with even a smidge of forced movement is so much damage, and clerics are famously hard to kill. Like, ever.

I think any cleric using BB is great, even with the feat or race tax for non-Arcana domains/racial cantrip choice for elves, and that race tax is lessened post-Tasha's. Half High Elf clerics are a jam.

[Waazraath]

I think a lot of stuff has been said already. My 2 cents:

- it seems more a case of personal player preference than something with the class. I think in the earlier thread refered to in the OP, it was explicitly stated that the poster doesn't en joy buffing and divinations as much. Fair enough of course, but guess a large part is there.
- a lot has been said about higher level spells lacking, but what is often missing is how damn good the lower level cleric spells are when upcast. A cleric who does little else than plinking cantrips or duking it out in melee, supported with (upcasts) Aid, Spirtual Weapon, Spirit Guardians is competative damage wise (and most likely will have spells left for utility, healing etc.).
- when you look at the (very good) spells on the standard list, ignoring subclasses, you get Guidance, Bless, Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, Blindess/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Hold Person, Aid, Augury, Spirit Guardians, Dispel Magic, Revivify, Banshment, Divination, Holy Weapon, Raise Dead, Heal, Heroes Feast, which keeps you happy up to tier 3, and covers lots of bases: buff, debuff, bfc, healing, skill enhancement - you name it. It's quite broad really.
- it only gets broader counting the subclasses. With Tasha's metamagics and metamagic feat, a high level tempest cleric can maximize a firestorm made of lightning few times a day. That's pretty damn good aoe-blasting.

It's a strong and well balanced class, that has out of the box few weaknesses, doesn't need spell slots to compensate for fragility, can contribute in every pillar of the game.

[meandean]

I could understand thinking Clerics are boring. Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians/Dodge is not the most exciting thing you can do with your life. And then to make matters worse, half of the responses to "there aren't many good high-level spells" are "you can upcast Spirit Guardians!" Great, I'm literally casting the same exact spell for pretty much my entire career.

Underpowered? Certainly not early on, because the spell list, abilities, and proficiencies are all very frontloaded. As you progress, I think control and general reality-bending become the most powerful things you can do, so eventually Wizard and Bard surpass it. Given that healing isn't an essential 5E function, I think Paladin is more powerful as well, since it can heal "enough" and also has terrific DPR and buffs.

Otherwise, I think all the other classes (except Monk, at the bottom) are pretty well-balanced against each other in terms of power level. So if choosing between them, what you want to play will depend on your taste in terms of mechanics, and in terms of flavor/RP ideas. I'd imagine Cleric flavor comes mostly from the subclasses; people are intrigued more by e.g. "someone who can learn any skill!" or "a zealous acolyte of the God of War!" than by the generic archetype of a religious guy or gal. I do agree that it's harder to give Clerics a lot of mechanical variety than most other classes, but it's obviously possible, or maybe that's something that just isn't important to you.

[Rukelnikov]

Exactly - it's not broken, like strangebloke said. You may want to make changes and that's fine, but "broken" is a much more severe (and unwarranted) judgement

If something needs fixing, its because its not ok, and the resting mechanics have been topic of discussion, for almost the entirety of the edition.

[strangebloke]

I think a lot of stuff has been said already. My 2 cents:

- it seems more a case of personal player preference than something with the class. I think in the earlier thread refered to in the OP, it was explicitly stated that the poster doesn't en joy buffing and divinations as much. Fair enough of course, but guess a large part is there.
- a lot has been said about higher level spells lacking, but what is often missing is how damn good the lower level cleric spells are when upcast. A cleric who does little else than plinking cantrips or duking it out in melee, supported with (upcasts) Aid, Spirtual Weapon, Spirit Guardians is competative damage wise (and most likely will have spells left for utility, healing etc.).
- when you look at the (very good) spells on the standard list, ignoring subclasses, you get Guidance, Bless, Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, Blindess/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Hold Person, Aid, Augury, Spirit Guardians, Dispel Magic, Revivify, Banshment, Divination, Holy Weapon, Raise Dead, Heal, Heroes Feast, which keeps you happy up to tier 3, and covers lots of bases: buff, debuff, bfc, healing, skill enhancement - you name it. It's quite broad really.
- it only gets broader counting the subclasses. With Tasha's metamagics and metamagic feat, a high level tempest cleric can maximize a firestorm made of lightning few times a day. That's pretty damn good aoe-blasting.

It's a strong and well balanced class, that has out of the box few weaknesses, doesn't need spell slots to compensate for fragility, can contribute in every pillar of the game.
Yeah.... when we say "falls off at high levels" we mean like level 13+, which is not the normal range most campaigns fall into.

And cleric subclasses are really strong compared with almost anyone else. TEN spells PREPARED every day for free cannot be overstated. Even if those spells aren't good, that's just so much free flexibility. A sorcerer at 20 has 15 spells. A warlock has 15 + MA +invocations. A wizard has 25+rituals. Cleric has 35. They're the boyscout of the casters, ready for anything.

I could understand thinking Clerics are boring. Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians/Dodge is not the most exciting thing you can do with your life. And then to make matters worse, half of the responses to "there aren't many good high-level spells" are "you can upcast Spirit Guardians!" Great, I'm literally casting the same exact spell for pretty much my entire career.
I mean, they have good new spells until level 15 or so. Banishment and Hero's Feast and summon celestial and Holy Weapon and Forbiddance all have their place.

They fall off in terms of flexibility because they stop getting those juicy domain spells, and also because like level 7/8/9 spells for cleric are less exciting.


If something needs fixing, its because its not ok, and the resting mechanics have been topic of discussion, for almost the entirety of the edition.

The rules come in three variants that acknowledge that the default might not work for you because of inherent differences between tables. If you're committed to running a style of play that's compatible with none of them, I can't take the criticism that the system is "broken" seriously. There's a pretty wide range of play that's supported to some extent.

Like, if you want to run a style of game where there's a mix of exploration and dungeoneering, you can just run Gritty Realism and have short dungeons. Several days of incidental encounters leading up to an attack on a monster's lair works really well this way. Or you can use default rules and have easy 1-encounter days on the way to the dungeon, with dedicated safe points in the dungeon for short rests. (the classic sealed lower level of the dungeon) If you want to run raids on hell, do it heroic style and give out ten minute short rests.

Or you can just use default rules and never worry about short rests, and that's fine too. Certain classes (mostly monks) will feel weaker but its still not to the point the system is broken. Maybe monk is broken because its so hyper reliant on short rests, but honestly if they were more like warlock and had lots of capacity outside a short rest resource nobody would even care.

[Frogreaver]

I could understand thinking Clerics are boring. Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians/Dodge is not the most exciting thing you can do with your life. And then to make matters worse, half of the responses to "there aren't many good high-level spells" are "you can upcast Spirit Guardians!" Great, I'm literally casting the same exact spell for pretty much my entire career.

I tend to find clerics quite boring as it's hard for me to roleplay a decent one. The subclasses differentiate their actual playstyles well though. I find Light, Tempest, Life, Order, etc to all play quite differently.


Underpowered? Certainly not early on, because the spell list, abilities, and proficiencies are all very frontloaded. As you progress, I think control and general reality-bending become the most powerful things you can do, so eventually Wizard and Bard surpass it. Given that healing isn't an essential 5E function, I think Paladin is more powerful as well, since it can heal "enough" and also has powerful DPR and buffs.

Maybe, but outside of a handful of level 5+ wizard spells I don't know that we can really say wizards are more powerful. I'd say those spells are powerful moreso than I'd say wizards are powerful.


Otherwise, I think all the other classes (except Monk, at the bottom) are pretty well-balanced against each other in terms of power level. So if choosing between them, what you want to play will depend on your taste in terms of mechanics, and in terms of flavor/RP ideas. I'd imagine Cleric flavor comes mostly from the subclasses, and people are usually intrigued more by e.g. "someone who can learn any skill!" or "a zealous acolyte of the God of War!" than by the generic archetype of a religious guy or gal. I do agree that it's harder to give Clerics a lot of mechanical variety than most other classes, but it's obviously possible, or maybe that's something that just isn't important to you.

Agreed!

[PhoenixPhyre]

If something needs fixing, its because its not ok, and the resting mechanics have been topic of discussion, for almost the entirety of the edition.

No. Lots of things get tweaked because they fit the party better that way. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the rules. Just that not everything fits everyone there same way.

D&D is not supposed to be one size fits all. It's supposed to be tweaked and adjusted to fit.

[Damon_Tor]

Take an extra hour after your long rest cuz it'd be super handy? I'm sorry, I thought your character was a person, with goals and motivations and responsibilities and on and on. I bet an extra hour of sleep would be great for you, too, but I doubt you're ignoring your alarm clock and going to work an hour later than scheduled just because it would be handy!

That's not really a fair comparison. This is life and death to your PCs. You really think they wouldn't take an extra hour to get ready in the morning if it decreases the chances they chances they're going to DIE at some point during the day?

Sure there are situations where time is critical and every second counts, but in those circumstances you're not likely to be taking a long rest in the first place.

[sithlordnergal]

And cleric subclasses are really strong compared with almost anyone else. TEN spells PREPARED every day for free cannot be overstated. Even if those spells aren't good, that's just so much free flexibility. A sorcerer at 20 has 15 spells. A warlock has 15 + MA +invocations. A wizard has 25+rituals. Cleric has 35. They're the boyscout of the casters, ready for anything.

I mean, they have good new spells until level 15 or so. Banishment and Hero's Feast and summon celestial and Holy Weapon and Forbiddance all have their place.

They fall off in terms of flexibility because they stop getting those juicy domain spells, and also because like level 7/8/9 spells for cleric are less exciting.


I don't actually think this really holds up that well about prepared spells. Yeah, they have the most prepared spells, but if half of those spells aren't going to ever be used, is having them prepared actually of any use? Take the Arcana Cleric. Only 4 of their 10 Domain spells are going to be regularly used, 5 are situational with costly components that get consumed, and are spells the Arcana Cleric can't actually make use of cause they lack any form of proper summoning, and the last one is Leomund's Secret Chest which is never going to be used because its not a good spell. So rather than having 10 prepared spells, its more like we have 4 extra prepared spells, and 6 spells that are wasting space.

Now, some Domain spell lists are good, but they really can be hit or miss. And when you mix that with the lackluster Cleric spell list in general, being able to prepare extra spells doesn't count for much. And while they do have a handful of good spells, like Banishment and Hero's Feast, they really don't have anything else. For example, compare the 6th level spells of a Druid to the 6th level spells of a Cleric. Druids have a balanced mix of Buffs, Debuffs, Damage, and Utility, with 17 spells in total. This includes some things Clerics get, like Hero's Feast, Heal, Find the Path, and Sunbeam.

Meanwhile Clerics have Buffs and Damage...and that's it. They do have four Utility spells, but two of those four really can't be used without some sort of home base that you always use and always return to, which isn't really something that's common from what I've seen. Now, Planar Ally is a really nice spell, but its going going to be heavily dependent on how prohibitive the DM makes the cost. Same thing happens at 4th level spells, sure Clerics have things like Banishment and Freedom of Movement...but Druids have Polymorph and Freedom of Movement, along with 15 other spells to choose from. And as great as Banishment is, I see a loooot more posts talking about nerfing Polymorph for being game breaking than I do Banishment.

[Dork_Forge]

I think Clerics can be powerful, they get nice AC, some of the best spells in the game, and depending on what their CD is getting it twice per SR can be insane.

My criticism of them as a player is the lack of actual features in the second half of the game. As a DM I don't like the whole 'judge what their god would do!' thing of Channel Divinity and far too many get heavy armor.

[Frogreaver]

That's not really a fair comparison. This is life and death to your PCs. You really think they wouldn't take an extra hour to get ready in the morning if it decreases the chances they chances they're going to DIE at some point during the day?

Sure there are situations where time is critical and every second counts, but in those circumstances you're not likely to be taking a long rest in the first place.

Pretty sure my players would leave you behind while you rested an hour after their long rest. Only time not would be if they knew a hard fight was coming up soon.

[RazorChain]

I don't know, seems that the cleric is just fine.

I have one player in my campaign playing a Death Domain Cleric and he's out smiting the Paladin at level 6. He just uses his Touch of Death for +17 in damage twice per short rest, that combined with Two handed sword and GWM he's doing 2d6+32 in damage on a good strike all the while hammering away with his spiritual weapon as a bonus action. He prefers blessing the group so he can hit with his GWM. In a clutch the Paladin uses bless so he can put up his spirit guardians.


On top of that he has tons of spells prepared compared to other classes, I mean at level 6 he has 15 spells prepared compared to the wizards 10.

[Mjolnirbear]

That's not really a fair comparison. This is life and death to your PCs. You really think they wouldn't take an extra hour to get ready in the morning if it decreases the chances they chances they're going to DIE at some point during the day?

Sure there are situations where time is critical and every second counts, but in those circumstances you're not likely to be taking a long rest in the first place.

Getting ready is different than resting, IMO. The "short rest after long rest" isn't narrative, it's metagame resource use. I suppose narratively you could call shorts rests "power ups", and spending an hour powering up would make sense narratively (at least to me).

Given both sides in this debate, I'd be inclined to say "call them encounter powers. They refresh automagically when an encounter is about to begin." Then a short rest could be used for only healing, if you decide to keep it at all.

Personally this seems a non-issue to me, because my table can benefit from a max of two short rests unless I choose to authorise more (which I do on long journeys where long rests aren't feasible). So if the sorlock wants to rest immediately after waking up, he can do that, but it'll cost him one of his two short rests.

I did it because I reduced the time it takes a short rest to ten minutes, so I put the cap in to provide potential abuse. It always felt artificial to me though, a mechanical limit that does not have any narrative support.

I like the idea of eliminating short rests entirely and turning them into encounter resources. It seems to solve a lot of narrative problems. I think I like it better than what I was using before.

[Zuras]

I think Clerics can be powerful, they get nice AC, some of the best spells in the game, and depending on what their CD is getting it twice per SR can be insane.

My criticism of them as a player is the lack of actual features in the second half of the game. As a DM I don't like the whole 'judge what their god would do!' thing of Channel Divinity and far too many get heavy armor.

To be fair, levels 10+ are usually about 20% of the typical campaign, at best. It is a real problem though, especially how the Domain spells that were making your capabilities divergent and interesting dry up.

It looks worse on paper than it actually plays out, though, because in any serious Tier 3 or 4 combat the cleric is generally spending their most critical actions removing debuffs from allies. Greater Restoration in particular is easily the spell I cast most in boss fights.

I like clerics and have played them a lot, but they’re definitely a bad choice if you get bored casting Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians over and over in combat and want alternative but similarly effective spell options.

[Dork_Forge]

To be fair, levels 10+ are usually about 20% of the typical campaign, at best. It is a real problem though, especially how the Domain spells that were making your capabilities divergent and interesting dry up.

It looks worse on paper than it actually plays out, though, because in any serious Tier 3 or 4 combat the cleric is generally spending their most critical actions removing debuffs from allies. Greater Restoration in particular is easily the spell I cast most in boss fights.

I like clerics and have played them a lot, but they’re definitely a bad choice if you get bored casting Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians over and over in combat and want alternative but similarly effective spell options.

10+ is half the designed game, there's no reason to slack off on features from a design stand point because of 'the typical campaign.'

And IMO the Cleric shouldn't be locked into that role of removing effects, that's basically mandatory healer Clerics again, if they had more to do then they might be more inclined to actually do other things.

I've seen spiritual weapon a lot, but Sprirt Guardians normally trades off for other concentration spells, most often Bless regardless of level.

[Frogreaver]

10+ is half the designed game, there's no reason to slack off on features from a design stand point because of 'the typical campaign.'

And IMO the Cleric shouldn't be locked into that role of removing effects, that's basically mandatory healer Clerics again, if they had more to do then they might be more inclined to actually do other things.

I've seen spiritual weapon a lot, but Sprirt Guardians normally trades off for other concentration spells, most often Bless regardless of level.

Yea, I've found that situationally there are often much better things to do for a Cleric than cast Spirit Guardians in combat.

[Zuras]

10+ is half the designed game, there's no reason to slack off on features from a design stand point because of 'the typical campaign.'

And IMO the Cleric shouldn't be locked into that role of removing effects, that's basically mandatory healer Clerics again, if they had more to do then they might be more inclined to actually do other things.

I've seen spiritual weapon a lot, but Sprirt Guardians normally trades off for other concentration spells, most often Bless regardless of level.


Sure, Spirit Guardians and Bless trade off based on whether you’re fighting swarms or high CR foes, with banishment mixed in at higher levels. My point was clerics have a few powerful combat spells that are head and shoulders above the rest. Some people see that as a positive—just take those spells, then customize everything else based on your domain or how you see your primary party role, with no worries about pulling your weight in combat. Some people see it as a negative—there’s not much variety among your best spells.

Personally I’ve always liked Clerics, and have played bunches of them, but I can see how players with other viewpoints can think they have the least variety in play while I think they have the most.

Also note that as the best buffing (as opposed to controlling or blasting) caster class, your effectiveness can vary wildly based on how leveraged your buff spells are. Holy Weapon goes a lot farther on an 11th level Fighter compared to using it with an all-caster party.

[LudicSavant]

Now, some Domain spell lists are good, but they really can be hit or miss. And when you mix that with the lackluster Cleric spell list in general, being able to prepare extra spells doesn't count for much. And while they do have a handful of good spells, like Banishment and Hero's Feast, they really don't have anything else. For example, compare the 6th level spells of a Druid to the 6th level spells of a Cleric. Druids have a balanced mix of Buffs, Debuffs, Damage, and Utility, with 17 spells in total. This includes some things Clerics get, like Hero's Feast, Heal, Find the Path, and Sunbeam.


For example, compare the 6th level spells of a Druid to the 6th level spells of a Cleric.

Sure! Lemme take a look.

Factor the first:
Clerics of any subclass have 10 more spells prepared than most Druids (at any level where 6th level spell access is a thing). Sure, these spells are 1st-5th level, but that opens up a lot more room to prepare a wider variety of options at any spell level, even if you don't like some of your domain spells.

Factor the second:
You're only going to have 1 6th level spell per day until level 19 (when you get 2).

Because of the first and second factors, the Druid is not actually going to be walking around with a wide variety of 6th level spell options on-hand. At best, they could take a long rest and pick up something tomorrow. In the moment, the Cleric has more spells ready to go.

As for spell list, these are Cleric-exclusive:
Planar Binding
True Seeing
Summon Celestial (Yeah, it's technically a 5th level spell, but it's better in a 6th slot).
Word of Recall
Forbiddance (Ritual)
Create Undead
Harm
Blade Barrier

Those spells are kind of a big deal. Planar Binding is one of the "shenanigans tier" spells. Summon Celestial is a great everyday use of a 6th slot and arguably one of the best Tasha summons. True Seeing is just very important to solving certain kinds of situations, such that you really probably wanna have at least one person in your party that can use it (or something similar). Forbiddance is a potent ritual (Druids don't even have rituals on their 6th list -- they have some non-ritual 'base preparation' spells though). Create Undead can "hedge slots" for minions without using up the current day's slots. Word of Recall is a discounted (and therefore good) "teleport back to base in a pinch" that's more reliable than Transport via Plants or Wind Walk (but can't go as many places). Blade Barrier gives them an "enters or starts turn" hazard that can also provide 3/4 cover while not impeding your own side's ability to attack. Harm is usually better against PCs than monsters.

The Druid-exclusive spells are:
Bones of the Earth
Conjure Fey
Druid Grove
Flesh to Stone
Investiture of Flame
Investiture of Ice
Investiture of Stone
Investiture of Wind
Move Earth
Primordial Ward
Transport via Plants
Wall of Thorns
Wind Walk

There's definitely some useful stuff on there, but there's also a fair bit of chaff (like the investiture spells and Flesh to Stone). I'm not really seeing why you view that 6th level list as far superior to the Cleric's, especially since you're going to have fewer options prepared.

As for spells they share...

This includes some things Clerics get, like Hero's Feast, Heal, Find the Path, and Sunbeam.
Yep, those four are all of 'em!

[sithlordnergal]

Sure! Lemme take a look.

Factor the first:
Clerics of any subclass have 10 more spells prepared than most Druids (at any level where 6th level spell access is a thing). Sure, these spells are 1st-5th level, but that opens up a lot more room to prepare a wider variety of options at any spell level, even if you don't like 100% of your domain spells.

Factor the second:
You're only going to have 1 6th level spell per day until level 19 (when you get 2).

Because of the first and second factors, the Druid is not actually going to be walking around with a wide variety of 6th level spell options on-hand. At best, they could take a long rest and pick up something tomorrow. In the moment, the Cleric has more spells ready to go.

As for spell list, these are Cleric-exclusive:
Planar Binding
True Seeing
Summon Celestial (Yeah, it's technically a 5th level spell, but it's better in a 6th slot).
Word of Recall
Forbiddance (Ritual)
Create Undead
Harm
Blade Barrier

Those spells are kind of a big deal. Planar Binding is one of the "shenanigans tier" spells. Summon Celestial is a great everyday use of a 6th slot and arguably one of the best Tasha summons. True Seeing is just very important to solving certain kinds of situations, such that you really probably wanna have at least one person in your party that can use it (or something similar). Forbiddance is a potent ritual (Druids don't even have rituals on their 6th list -- they have some non-ritual 'base preparation' spells though). Create Undead can "hedge slots" for permanent minions without using up the current day's slots. Word of Recall is a discounted (and therefore good) "teleport back to base in a pinch" that's more reliable than Transport via Plants or Wind Walk (but can't go as many places). Blade Barrier gives them an "enters or starts turn" hazard that can also provide 3/4 cover while not impeding your own side's ability to attack. Harm is usually better against PCs than monsters.


First, a minor correction for ya, Planar Binding is on the Druid spell list. Yeah, not that big of a deal to miss, but it is a shenanigans tier spell, and Druids are able to actually make use of it over Clerics since they actually have spells to summon creatures to bind outside of Planar Ally, Conjure Celestial, and Gate. And I doubt many creatures are gonna willingly let you cast Planar Binding when you conjure them up with Gate or Planar Ally.

Next up, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the idea that Summon Celestial is the best of the Summon Spells. Summon Undead is actually on par with Summon Celestial when they're cast at the same level. Summon Celestial's attacks only deal 1 point more than the Ghost or Skeleton on average, both forms have a fly speed, both forms can use a minor heal, and one form gives Temp HP to allies. But on the flip side, the Undead has more damage and condition immunities, debuffs enemies instead of healing party members, and the Ghost and Putrid forms have more HP then the Celestial. You could try to argue that buffs are better than debuffs, or vice versa, but they're pretty much equal.

And neither spell holds a candle to Conjure Fey, which costs nothing to cast and summons a CR 6 Beast or Fey. And unless Roll20 is bugging out, I do believe that list of Fey just increased due to Monsters of the Multiverse, which lets you summon in things like the Hobgoblin Devastator. Even if Goblinoids aren't included, you have the entire list of Fey and Beasts from Cr 0 to 6.

And the rest of the comparisons end up being the same. Forbiddance is nice...as an NPC spell. PCs, who tend to always be on the move without a real base of operation, won't be making use of that spell. Word of Recall is a nice instant retreat, but you'll have to deal with the consequences of having to retreat. Most DMs, both here in the forum and off, make it a habit of providing a penalty for retreating from a fight. Its something that comes up all the time in threads talking about 5 minute adventuring days. Harm is, as you said, another NPC spell.


To sum it up, out of that list we have 7 Cleric only spells, 3 of which are good 6th level spells, 3 of which are really NPC spells, and 1 that's an upcasted spell that's no better than any of the other Summon Spells, and gets blown out of the water by Conjure Fey.

And again, for the "having more prepared spells" argument, if your prepared spells are so niche or useless that they're never used, then there's no point in having them prepared. It ends up being a null point, with no actual increase in the Cleric's effectiveness as a Caster.



The Druid-exclusive spells are:
Bones of the Earth
Conjure Fey
Druid Grove
Flesh to Stone
Investiture of Flame
Investiture of Ice
Investiture of Stone
Investiture of Wind
Move Earth
Primordial Ward
Transport via Plants
Wall of Thorns
Wind Walk

There's definitely some useful stuff on there, but there's also a fair bit of chaff (like the investiture spells and Flesh to Stone). I'm not really seeing why you view that 6th level list as far superior to the Cleric's, especially since you're going to have fewer options prepared.

As for spells they share...

Yep, those four are all of 'em!

Now, for the Druid spells, I agree the Investiture spells are chaff, no need to comment on them, they're as good as the Tasha Summon spell line. However, the rest of the Druid only spells in that list make for a mix of Utility and Control, with a powerful summon thrown in. Wall of Thorns is just as good as Blade Barrier, with a longer range, slightly less damage, but cuts down movement to 1/4th. Meanwhile Druid Grove and Transport via Plants are just as good as Forbiddance and Word of Recall, that is to say they're all NPC spells. But Wind Walk makes up for Transport via Plants' shortcomings as a utility travel spell, something base Clerics lack until the get Plane Shift.

And yup, the five spells they share with the Cleric just happen to be the Cleric's strongest spells on their list.

[LudicSavant]

First, a minor correction for ya, Planar Binding is on the Druid spell list. Sorry, that should say Planar Ally (binding is a 5th level spell, Ally is the Cleric-exclusive 6th)



And yup, the five spells they share with the Cleric just happen to be the Cleric's strongest spells on their list.
It’s 4, not 5.

[ATHATH]

There are so many points to argue against in this summary.

Take an extra hour after your long rest cuz it'd be super handy? I'm sorry, I thought your character was a person, with goals and motivations and responsibilities and on and on. I bet an extra hour of sleep would be great for you, too, but I doubt you're ignoring your alarm clock and going to work an hour later than scheduled just because it would be handy!
Most D&D characters aren't working a 9-to-5, they're adventuring. They're their own bosses- this Twilight Cleric isn't starting work an hour later than scheduled, the group's schedule already accounts for the fact that their rests will be 9 hours long, not 8.

Furthermore, even if this hypothetical Twilight Cleric was working some weird, guild-based 9-to-5 job, the group could just... go to bed an hour earlier.



Carry a parasol? Are you serious? No DM worth their salt is letting anyone get away with that nonsense! :smalltongue:

My apologies, I had some wires crossed with one of the classic Shadow Monk tricks- they only require a shadow for their teleportation ability, not dim light or darkness. Still, Twilight Clerics have a class feature that lets them create a sphere of dim light (that moves with them!) and is probably something they want to pop anyway if they're taking heat. If you're just solving a puzzle, you can just... deploy a blanket tent, snuff out the lights (your entire party can see in the dark anyway), or (ritual) cast Leomund's Tiny Hut ("Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark."), which is on your domain spell list. You can also just... adventure at dusk, night, and/or dawn.



Suffice to say, it is absolutely not shocking at all that so many people critique 5e as "a video game" instead of a ttrpg, and this is an outstanding example of why; treating everything like a formulaic code to be properly input for optimal results instead of like characters living and struggling naturally through their world. :smallsigh:

???????????????

No, really, where did you get "treating everything like a formulaic code to be properly input for optimal results" from??

[sithlordnergal]

Sorry, that should say Planar Ally (binding is a 5th level spell, Ally is the Cleric-exclusive 6th)


It’s 4, not 5.

Yup, yup, you're right. I miscounted, and yeah, Planar Ally is on the Cleric spell list only. I do agree that its a powerful spell, but I'd say its also prohibitively expensive to use unless you have a really generous DM. 1k GP per hour adds up really fast...

[ATHATH]

Forbiddance is nice...as an NPC spell. PCs, who tend to always be on the move without a real base of operation, won't be making use of that spell.
Forbiddance is actually a pretty darn good PC spell. Remember, you can move while ritual casting.

0. "Wowee, that tomb of undead/portal to hell/unseelie fey-infested forest sure looks dangerous!"
1. Start ritual casting Forbiddance.
2a. Walk up to the front of the dungeon just as you're about to finish casting Forbiddance.
2b. Have your full caster friend (or any schmuck with a Helm of Teleportation) teleport you into the dungeon the round before you finish casting Forbiddance (or, alternatively, Leomund's Tiny Hut followed by Forbiddance cast from within the indestructible sphere of LTH).
3. Fry every supernatural creature on the first floor of the dungeon (or around its entrance) without even needing to see them or expending a single spell slot.
4. Repeat with the next floor of the tomb until the entire dungeon is purified.

Of course, depending on the layout of the dungeon and if its inhabitants are intelligent, some enemies might be able to flee the dungeon before their floor gets fried, but forcing a retreat/flushing enemies out of a fortified and/or trapped position can still be a win in quite a few scenarios.

And if you get your casting interrupted, you can just stop casting and fight normally- you haven't expended any resources, after all.

Forbiddance also protects you from being scry 'n' died or ambushed by supernatural forces while resting, which is handy.

[LudicSavant]

Next up, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the idea that Summon Celestial is the best of the Summon Spells. Summon Undead is actually on par with Summon Celestial when they're cast at the same level. Summon Celestial's attacks only deal 1 point more than the Ghost or Skeleton on average, both forms have a fly speed, both forms can use a minor heal, and one form gives Temp HP to allies. But on the flip side, the Undead has more damage and condition immunities, debuffs enemies instead of healing party members, and the Ghost and Putrid forms have more HP then the Celestial. You could try to argue that buffs are better than debuffs, or vice versa, but they're pretty much equal.

So first off, I said “arguably one of the best” not “the best.”

Second, Druids don’t get summon undead.

Third off, your post does not mention the good parts of Summon Celestial, like that it’s a flying mount that deals great ranged Radiant damage (which is much more reliable than Necrotic).

[sithlordnergal]

So first off, I said “arguably one of the best” not “the best.”

Second, Druids don’t get summon undead.

Third off, your post does not mention the good parts of Summon Celestial, like that it’s a flying mount that deals great ranged Radiant damage (which is much more reliable than Necrotic).

Yes, and I'm saying its arguably as good as Summon Undead, and Summon Undead is not a good Summon spell. Which means if Summon Celestial is as good as Summon Undead, and Summon Undead is not a good Summon spell, then that would mean Summon Celestial is not a good Summon spell.

And yes, I know Druids don't get Summon Undead. They get Summon Fey, which I'd argue is worse than Summon Celestial, but they also get Conjure Fey, which is far, far better than any of the Summon spells from Tashas.

Finally, I don't think you can actually use Summon Celestial as a mount. In order for a creature to be used as a mount, it has to be "A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount". It checks off two of those, willing creature and a size larger, but because it uses a Longbow and a Mace, I don't think it has the "appropriate anatomy" to qualify as a mount. There aren't any Celestials with the appropriate anatomy that can use a Longbow or Mace and be used as a Mount. If it were Conjure Fey I could see it, cause Centaurs are Fey, but not Summon Celestial.

And I find that Necrotic and Radiant are on pretty equal terms when it comes to reliable damage.

[sithlordnergal]

Forbiddance is actually a pretty darn good PC spell. Remember, you can move while ritual casting.

0. "Wowee, that tomb of undead/portal to hell/unseelie fey-infested forest sure looks dangerous!"
1. Start ritual casting Forbiddance.
2a. Walk up to the front of the dungeon just as you're about to finish casting Forbiddance.
2b. Have your full caster friend (or any schmuck with a Helm of Teleportation) teleport you into the dungeon the round before you finish casting Forbiddance (or, alternatively, Leomund's Tiny Hut followed by Forbiddance cast from within the indestructible sphere of LTH).
3. Fry every supernatural creature on the first floor of the dungeon (or around its entrance) without even needing to see them or expending a single spell slot.
4. Repeat with the next floor of the tomb until the entire dungeon is purified.

Of course, depending on the layout of the dungeon and if its inhabitants are intelligent, some enemies might be able to flee the dungeon before their floor gets fried, but forcing a retreat/flushing enemies out of a fortified and/or trapped position can still be a win in quite a few scenarios.

And if you get your casting interrupted, you can just stop casting and fight normally- you haven't expended any resources, after all.

Forbiddance also protects you from being scry 'n' died or ambushed by supernatural forces while resting, which is handy.

I...can't imagine that actually working in any situation...I mean, if you can pull it off, then yeah, that would be cool, but I can't realistically see that working. Though that is a use I hadn't thought of, so I'll give you props for that.

It can be handy to prevent scry 'n' die tactics though, so that is handy. Still not something I'd see many Clerics casting...but the anti-scrying is a nice niche use.

[ATHATH]

I...can't imagine that actually working in any situation...I mean, if you can pull it off, then yeah, that would be cool, but I can't realistically see that working. Though that is a use I hadn't thought of, so I'll give you props for that.

It can be handy to prevent scry 'n' die tactics though, so that is handy. Still not something I'd see many Clerics casting...but the anti-scrying is a nice niche use.
I specified protection from scry 'n' dying, not scrying- Forbiddance doesn't block Scry attempts, but it DOES block teleportation into the area you've sanctified. Make sure to rest indoors, though- a crafty villain can just teleport 35 ft. above you, since Forbiddance only extends 30 ft. off of the ground.

[sithlordnergal]

I specified protection from scry 'n' dying, not scrying- Forbiddance doesn't block Scry attempts, but it DOES block teleportation into the area you've sanctified. Make sure to rest indoors, though- a crafty villain can just teleport 35 ft. above you, since Forbiddance only extends 30 ft. off of the ground.

Ok yeah, you're correct. It does have that use of preventing scry 'n' die tactics from the opponent, which is a nice niche use. Though I feel like scry 'n' die is more of a player thing than a DM thing.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I appreciate the effort that Sithlordnergal, is imbuing their arguments with. One aspect of their argumentation that, I am personally, finding undercuts the veracity of their conclusions, are the baked in assumptions, that Sithlordnergal states are always in play.

Such as:

The players are itinerant, and have no properties or bases of operations.
Dungeon Masters apply penalties when Players elect to retreat.


The cleric class, likely, needs a nest for high tier play, to get the most out of it’s spells.

I do agree with dork_forge, that the cleric class can use some more class features for levels 10+.

The AD&D cleric never received spell slots beyond 7th level slots.
Gate, used to be a 7th level effect, BladeBarrier used to be a sizable portion of unavoidable damage. The original Blade Barrier spell did not offer a saving throw, and their was no mechanic like Evasion nor spells like Misty Step, in AD&D.

Enemy Clerics with access to Blade Barrier could devastate their opposition and deploy a significant obstacle with Blade Barrier.
5e Folks with Evasion sneer at Blade Barrier now, which is a shame.

In some ways, the cleric 7th level + spell list has been stretched thin in 5e in the attempt to cover slots up to 9th level.

I don’t think 5e clerics need the Miracle spell, from 3e, but some new options being added to the cleric in the later tiers, would help combat the perception that clerics are a ‘weak’ class. (That and boosting 5E’s version of Harm and Blade Barrier).

I, generally, do not play cleric characters, but a Dragonmark of Shadow, Cleric of Trickery was a blast to play, and felt like a very magical character…..which was exactly what I wanted.

[Merudo]

As far as I've been able to experience in play, as long as you have a Paladin, Bard, or Druid, not even all three, just one of them, they easily take the role of the Cleric. Heck, whenever I DM and my party has a Cleric and one of those three classes, I find that the Cleric ends up being the third wheel of the group.

So honestly, what is this thing that I'm missing? Am I just undervaluing Divination spells? I mean, I've been playing for years, and never really been impressed by or made much use of Divination spells because they don't give enough information to be really handy.

The Cleric (except Twilight/Peace) are widely seen in the optimization community as the worst full caster in 5e. So, your assessment is correct.

The Bard, Druid, & Paladin are very strong classes, and I would say they are better than the Cleric at level 3+.

Typically the Cleric has to rely on Spirit Guardians as their main offensive spell, and Bless as a backup. Problem is, in a lot of cases these two spells don't cut it.

Clerics don't have great utility either beside Zone of Truth (also available to the paladin) and some divination spells, which can be hit or miss depending on the DM.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The Cleric (except Twilight/Peace) are widely seen in the optimization community as the worst full caster in 5e. So, your assessment is correct.

The Bard, Druid, & Paladin are very strong classes, and I would say they are better than the Cleric at level 3+.

Typically the Cleric has to rely on Spirit Guardians as their main offensive spell, and Bless as a backup. Problem is, in a lot of cases these two spells don't cut it.

Clerics don't have great utility either beside Zone of Truth (also available to the paladin) and some divination spells, which can be hit or miss depending on the DM.

Maybe our group is missing something with Druids, but that's the class that players seem to struggle with regarding the spell list the most, particularly as they near mid-game. It just seems like everything you want to cast is concentration based. I'd be interested in what people see as good mid-level non concentration spells for Druid.

[sithlordnergal]

I appreciate the effort that Sithlordnergal, is imbuing their arguments with. One aspect of their argumentation that, I am personally, finding undercuts the veracity of their conclusions, are the baked in assumptions, that Sithlordnergal states are always in play.

Such as:

The players are itinerant, and have no properties or bases of operations.
Dungeon Masters apply penalties when Players elect to retreat.



To be fair, how many games, be they homebrew or published, have you actually seen players with a stationary base of operations? The only time I've seen or heard of players having one was in Dragonheist. Outside of that, player bases tend to either be non-existent or mobile, in which case Forbiddance isn't really an option. But I will admit, that is merely from my own experience and from chatting with other players. It could be that everyone else is buying property and setting up bases, just none of the people I talk to about such things.

And maybe I'm wrong, but what is one of the first things suggested when a person makes a thread about players taking too many long rests, I.E. leaving the dungeon to rest and do it later? Increase the difficulty of the dungeon by having the denizens set up more traps while repopulating it. So yeah, penalties for retreating. Heck, even if the DM isn't increasing the dungeon difficulty, usually there's something negative that comes with the fact that you couldn't complete the dungeon




I do agree with dork_forge, that the cleric class can use some more class features for levels 10+.

The AD&D cleric never received spell slots beyond 7th level slots.
Gate, used to be a 7th level effect, BladeBarrier used to be a sizable portion of unavoidable damage. The original Blade Barrier spell did not offer a saving throw, and their was no mechanic like Evasion nor spells like Misty Step, in AD&D.

Enemy Clerics with access to Blade Barrier could devastate their opposition and deploy a significant obstacle with Blade Barrier.
5e Folks with Evasion sneer at Blade Barrier now, which is a shame.

In some ways, the cleric 7th level + spell list has been stretched thin in 5e in the attempt to cover slots up to 9th level.

I don’t think 5e clerics need the Miracle spell, from 3e, but some new options being added to the cleric in the later tiers, would help combat the perception that clerics are a ‘weak’ class. (That and boosting 5E’s version of Harm and Blade Barrier).

I, generally, do not play cleric characters, but a Dragonmark of Shadow, Cleric of Trickery was a blast to play, and felt like a very magical character…..which was exactly what I wanted.

But yeah, Clerics need better high level features or better high level spells for sure. Cause I remember the old 3.5 Clerics, they were basically the Divine version of the Wizard. Here in 5e, I feel like they're closer to a Divine version of the Sorcerer because their spell selection is so lackluster. All they get are some really lackluster spells, their subclass features that are hit or miss, and Divine Intervention which is a miracle on its own if it works before 20th level.

I know that Wizards don't get many/any high level class features either outside of Spell Mastery and Signature Spells, but they have their spells to make up for it. And lets face it, even if you feel the Cleric spell list is perfectly balanced as it, it sort of pales in comparison to the power and game-breaking potential of what the Wizard has for their high level spells. Meaning high level Clerics can't really just fall back on their spell lists to supplement class features like a Wizard can.

[strangebloke]

Maybe our group is missing something with Druids, but that's the class that players seem to struggle with regarding the spell list the most, particularly as they near mid-game. It just seems like everything you want to cast is concentration based. I'd be interested in what people see as good mid-level non concentration spells for Druid.

I agree with this. Druids have great spells, but they're all concentration. Conjure Animals is good enough to carry the class in combat if your DM is permissive, but if your DM isn't the cleric's combat spells are more flexible. A cleric can have spirit guardians, spiritual weapon, and aid all active at once, and then also drop a CD that has a big impact.

I can see the argument for Druids being better but its more because of out of combat stuff and conjure animals specifically than the rest of the class.

[LudicSavant]

And yes, I know Druids don't get Summon Undead. They get Summon Fey, which I'd argue is worse than Summon Celestial, but they also get Conjure Fey, which is far, far better than any of the Summon spells from Tashas.

It's not really, though.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/191644/for-the-conjure-fey-spell-who-chooses-the-cr-whether-its-a-beast-or-fey-and

The only choice you get in Conjure Fey is whether you get a fey or a beast (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/84861-conjure-animals-fey?page=2). That is all the control you have.

It's a "ask the DM if they let you win" spell, much like Conjure Woodland Beings. Yeah, you could get a swarm of polymorphing pixies, and if you do it's overpowered. But that's quite an if.

Your notion that it blows everything else out of the water therefore strikes me as... optimistic.

[sithlordnergal]

Maybe our group is missing something with Druids, but that's the class that players seem to struggle with regarding the spell list the most, particularly as they near mid-game. It just seems like everything you want to cast is concentration based. I'd be interested in what people see as good mid-level non concentration spells for Druid.

Now, I will admit I haven't played a Land Druid before, but I have taken a Moon Druid from levels 1 to 20, and still play them a lot in AL, have a level 11 Dreams Druid, level 7 Shepard Druid, am building a Spore Druid, and have DMed a Wildfire Druid up to level 7 or 8. So as someone who plays and DMs for a looot of Druids, mid-level play is going to depend on two things:

1) Your Druid class

2) If your DM nerfs Conjuration spells or not.

Usually you are going to toss out a Concentration spell and follow it up with a class feature. And depending on your class, you may not be casting spells at all. For example, with the Moon Druid you typically wanna toss out a Concentration spell that can be cast and forgotten, transform into a Beast or Elemental, and make use of their abilities. Wildfire is pretty interesting since you use your action to summon the Wildfire Spirit, so you won't actually be casting any instantaneous spells till round 3 most of the time.

Meanwhile Sheppard Druids are simultaneously the most boring of the Druids, while also being the most involved, interesting, and difficult to play of the bunch. This is because you're always going to be casting Conjure Animals since all of your class features feed into it, probably followed by healing spells to keep your summons alive via your Spirit Totem. That said, its really hard to get bored with Conjure Animals, provided you're not summoning the same things every fight. 8 Velociraptors play very differently from 8 Giant Owls, 4 Warhorses, 2 Giant Spiders, or a Giant Constrictor Snake. Not only that, but you're going to be doing all that on a time crunch to avoid slowing down the table for everyone else. So you'll be so busy controlling your mini-army that you probably won't notice this is the 6th time in a row you've done nothing but cast Conjure Animals. XD

That said, I do have some good standbys to cast as Instantaneous spells. Keep in mind, this is just stuff for combat, Charm Person and Charm Monster are almost always handy, but the advantage on the save when fighting the target makes it less handy in combat:

Earth Tremor, Healing Word, Ice Knife, Thunderwave, Longstrider.

Earth Tremor and Thunderwave effectivly do the same thing, though Earth Tremor knocks creatures prone and creates Difficult Terrain while Thunderwave pushes and is an easy alarm if you need to get someone's attention. Healing Word is Healing Word, Ice Knife is an excellent targetable spell since its both an attack roll and a Dex save, and you don't have to hit with one for the other half to do damage. Longstrider is a really nice non-Concentration buff.


Continual Flame or Darkvision, Lesser Restoration, Wither and Bloom.

Not as many non-Concentration spells in 2nd level, though that's made up for by the fact that your 2nd level Concentration spells will be used at all levels. And some of the best of these either take up your action or Bonus Action if you still want to get the best bang for your buck with them. Wither and Bloom is cool though, since it lets you damage and heal at the same time.

Dispel Magic, Erupting Earth, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave

Dispel Magic is Dispel Magic, no need for further explanation. Erupting Earth is basically the Druid's Fireball. Now, it only deals 19.5 average damage over Fireball's 28, and it does have a smaller area it affects since its a 20ft cube and not 20ft radius. However, it has a far better damage type, magical Bludgeoning, and creates difficult terrain that remains until its cleared away.

Tidal Wave is basically the Druid's Lightningbolt, with less damage, but it knocks creatures prone. It also has a 120ft range, so you can put it up near some flying creature, knock them prone, and have them fall from the sky. And finally Plant Growth...its probably the MOTHER of all control spells. Non-Concentration, 100ft radius, cuts movement speed down to 1/4th, isn't considered Difficult Terrain so I'm pretty sure it can stack WITH Difficult Terrain for 1/5th movement, you can shape it however you like, and its technically one of the few combat spells with an actual non-combat use. Only downside is it only causes plants that are already there to grow...but then, you'd be hard pressed to find places with 0 plant-life.

Blight, Freedom of Movement, Ice Storm, and Fire Shield

Blight is a powerful single target damaging spell, though keep in mind you can't hurt undead or constructs with it. That said, always keep it handy, cause you never know when you might fight a Plant monster like a Shambling Mound. Plus, its 8d8 damage...even if it doesn't effect undead and constructs, that's a pretty good chunk of damage for a 4th level spell. Ice Storm is less damage, very good area, decent damage types, and more non-concentration difficult terrain.

Fire Shield is a great self buff, especially for Moon Druids, and Freedom of Movement is Freedom of Movement, its a top buff for a reason.

Cone of Cold, Contagion, Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds, Transmute Rock

Cone of Cold, Greater Restoration, and Mass Cure Wounds don't need an explanation. One is good damage in a large AoE, one is a catch all cure for conditions, and one is a healing spell to pick everyone up. The two interesting spells here are Contagion and Transmute Rock.

Now Contagion is kind of like Heat Metal. You're not gonna find a lot of things to cast it on...but when you do...hoooo boy. Three rounds of guaranteed, no save or concentration needed Poisoned condition, and if they fail all three saves without being killed yet, I got two words for ya: Slimy Doom. Permanent stun for the rest of the encounter. I will admit, I've never seen Slimy Doom in action yet, mostly because DMs will burn ALL of their Legendary Saves to avoid that fate. Leaving them open to, say, Hold Monster from an ally.

Meanwhile Transmute Rock is a surprisingly versatile spell, in nearly every situation.

[sithlordnergal]

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/191644/for-the-conjure-fey-spell-who-chooses-the-cr-whether-its-a-beast-or-fey-and

The only choice you get in Conjure Fey is whether you get a fey or a beast (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/84861-conjure-animals-fey?page=2). That is all the control you have.

It's a "ask the DM if they let you win" spell, much like Conjure Woodland Beings. Yeah, you could get a swarm of polymorphing pixies, and if you do it's overpowered. But that's quite an if.

Your notion that it blows everything else out of the water therefore strikes me as... optimistic.

You do only get to choose if its a Fey or Beast while the DM chooses the rest, but unless your DM is intentionally trying to screw you over, you're going to generally get something useful. It may not be an Annis Hag, but its difficult to find Fey that aren't handy. And if you have a DM that does choose to screw over all Conjuration spells like that, well:

1) Its doubtful you'd be getting the material components for Summon Celestial, since its pretty easy for a DM to say "No, you can't by a 500gp reliquary from places, they're just not for sale"

and

2) You actually still have a few options left, Giant Insect being one of them, to summon up multiple beasts at once. Not nearly as strong as, say, Conjure Animals, and its only a 4th level spell, but that's still a summoning spell with no components. On top of everything else like Sunbeam, Flesh to Stone, Wall of Thorns, Primordial Ward, and Bones of the Earth. And looking at them, Investiture of Ice or Fire both have surprisingly useful niches, giving you immunity to Fire or Cold, and Resistance to the other...though I wouldn't call them good.

[LudicSavant]

You do only get to choose if its a Fey or Beast while the DM chooses the rest, but unless your DM is intentionally trying to screw you over, you're going to generally get something useful. It may not be an Annis Hag, but its difficult to find Fey that aren't handy.

What even makes you think an Annis Hag is so much better than Summon Celestial? Let alone a chance of getting something worse than an Annis Hag?

That Annis Hag is melee damage only, does the second-worst damage type in the game, does less DPR against decent-AC targets, and turns on you if you lose Concentration.

[sithlordnergal]

What even makes you think an Annis Hag is so much better than Summon Celestial? Let alone a chance of getting something worse than an Annis Hag?

Same AC as the non-Defender Celestial, more HP than either of them, deals more average damage than the Celestial, has the same movement speed, can cast Fog Cloud which can be a very handy and powerful control spell if you know how to use it, and has a pretty strong grapple attack, so in order to escape the target would need to teleport or use their action to escape. The only thing it lacks is a fly speed and ranged attack. However, it is a brawler and you can toss behind enemy lines.

But unless your DM is giving you a single Sprite for a 6th level spell, you're going to get something that's useful. And again, if your DM is giving you a single Sprite for the cost of a 6th level spell, chances are that DM is not going to give you the stuff to cast one of the Tasha Summon spells. You'll be better off casting something else in that case, though its not like the rest of the Druid's at that level spells are weak.

[LudicSavant]

deals more average damage than the Celestial Well that's just false. The Annis Hag's poor accuracy ensures that the Celestial does comfortably higher DPR. From long range. While flying. With the second-best damage type in the game instead of the second-worst. And it doesn't betray you if you lose Concentration.

[sithlordnergal]

Well that's just false.

No, take a look:

6th level Celestial Defender deals 1d10+9 per hit with its mace, three attacks gives it 3d10+27 for an average damage of 43.5. The Longbow deals 2d6+8, three attacks for 6d6+24 for an average damage of 45.

Annis Hag makes three attacks, each attack deals 3d6+5 for a total of 9d6+15, for an average damage of 46.5. It does have Crushing Hug, which deals 9d6+5 for an average damage of 36.5, and it can't attack if it uses Crushing Hug. However, Crushing Hug automatically grapples the target, meaning it has to either use its Action to escape the Grapple, or have a movement speed of 0. And if it remains Grappled, the creature takes an automatic 9dd6+5 at the start of the Annis Hag's turn.

Now, the Celestial does have a less resisted damage type, I'll give it that, but the Annis Hag still does more. And if you decide to go all in with summons as a Druid, chances are you're a Sheppard Druid, which means their attacks are magical. But I'm not going to really count subclass features with these spells, as that's be unfair.



That's not the case. The Annis Hag's poor accuracy ensures that the Celestial does comfortably higher DPR. From long range. While flying. With the second-best damage type in the game instead of the second-worst. And it doesn't betray you if you lose Concentration.

Actually, the Annis Hag doesn't have that low of a hit chance. The Celestial you summon will have the same hit chance as your spell attack. Assuming levels 11 to 12 and a maxed out Wisdom, the Celestial will have a +9 to hit, meanwhile the Annis Hag has a +8 to hit. Now, if you're carrying around magic items that boost your hit chance, then yeah, the Celestial is going to have a much higher chance to hit...but that's assuming magic equipment. They still have a really good chance to hit things.

As for it not betraying you, yes. This is true, the Celestial won't betray you, it'll just disappear instead. And while it is heavily DM dependent, that Hag could either try to go straight for you, ignoring any attacks of opportunities from creatures it was just fighting, or it could remain engaged with whatever it was fighting previously. And if the enemies make no attacks of opportunity...well...I mean, I don't like to say the DM is metagaming, but they'd be doing some serious metagaming if the guys you're fighting suddenly stop targeting the Hag they were fighting.

[LudicSavant]

No, take a look

No.

The Annis Hag is less accurate than the Celestial, and thus does less DPR than the Celestial against targets of AC 11+ with +6 prof, or AC 13+ with +4 prof.

The Celestial will be dealing that superior damage from long range. While flying. With the second-best damage type in the game instead of the second-worst. And it doesn't betray you if you lose Concentration.

The fact that if you just assume the Annis Hag hits all the time, it can do 1.5 more damage, is... irrelevant. The Celestial is the more damaging spell.


The Celestial you summon will have the same hit chance as your spell attack. Assuming levels 11 to 12 and a maxed out Wisdom, the Celestial will have a +9 to hit, meanwhile the Annis Hag has a +8 to hit.

A +1 to hit makes a larger impact on DPR than the difference between 3d6+5 and 2d6+8. And that gap will only widen as your spell attack bonus increases.

[sithlordnergal]

No.

The Annis Hag is less accurate than the Celestial, and thus does less DPR than the Celestial against targets of AC 11+ with +6 prof, or AC 13+ with +4 prof.

The Celestial will be dealing that superior damage from long range. While flying. With the second-best damage type in the game instead of the second-worst. And it doesn't betray you if you lose Concentration.

The fact that if you just assume the Annis Hag hits all the time, it can do 1.5 more damage, is... irrelevant. The Celestial is the more damaging spell.

So, using this http://canihitthis.com/ It looks like the biggest point where things start to really become hard to hit with a +8 is around the 15 AC mark, it goes from about a 42% chance to hit all three to about 34% to hit all three. That said, Summon Celestial still isn't actually hitting that more more often then the Annis Hag. The only thing the Celestial does better is its fly speed. The ranged attack is nice, especially since the Celestial has really low HP, but the Annis Hag makes up for it with higher HP and multiple damage resistances. The only time Summon Celestial is going to be the more damaging spell every time is if you try to use it against a creature with 18 AC or higher, or you toss it against something that's resistant or immune to non-magical weapons.

However, that's still just a single summon here. You can get a lot more then just the Annis Hag.


As for when your spell attack bonus increases, again unless you're counting weapons, that'll only increase with your level. At which point you have 7th level spells. And if you have 7th level spells, you're no longer limited to the Annis Hag as the highest CR Fey you can summon. At that point you can pull in a Bheur Hag with 97 HP and a boat load of spells to boot, or a Corred with 102 HP, a bunch of spells, Bonus Action Grapple, and really good ranged and melee attacks. Or just be boring and summon 24 beasts...

[LudicSavant]

That said, Summon Celestial still isn't actually hitting that more more often then the Annis Hag.

Uhm, yes it is. What are you talking about?

[sithlordnergal]

Uhm, yes it is. What are you talking about?

I looked it over with that calculator I found...unless its incorrect, which I don't think it is, you need to be fighting a pretty high AC to miss all three attacks. And unless the Annis Hag is only hitting once for every two attacks the Celestial makes, they end up dealing more damage. Even with only a +8, the Annis Hag has a 50% chance of hitting a target with 18 AC twice. Meanwhile in order to out damage the Annis Hag, the Celestial has to hit the same AC 3 times, which it only has a 21.6% chance of.

[LudicSavant]

And unless the Annis Hag is only hitting once for every two attacks the Celestial makes, they end up dealing more damage.

Not sure how you're getting that. There is only a *very* slight gap in the damage-on-hit of the two creatures, and this difference is eclipsed by the difference in accuracy.

The Celestial attacks 3 times for 2d6+8 (15) with +9-+11 to hit (just from base prof+stat, you can potentially have more).
The Annis Hag attacks 3 times for 3d6+5 (15.5) with +8 to hit.

This results in the Celestial having a higher average DPR against most ACs.

Edit: As I stated earlier, the Celestial will outdamage against AC 13+ with +9 to hit, and 11+ with +11 to hit. Here it is on Anydice: https://anydice.com/program/29145

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/980734582867497060/unknown.png
This is the output vs AC 13. The gap will only get considerably larger as AC and/or Spell Attack Bonus increases.

[Thunderous Mojo]

To be fair, how many games, be they homebrew or published, have you actually seen players with a stationary base of operations?

If we can bend the definition of “stationary base of operations” to include naval vessels, airships, and demiplanes…the people I play with tend to acquire these in every campaign, that is not a one shot or mini-campaign.

Clearly, in a campaign that disallows a cleric from consecrating even something as meagre as a broom closet, or meadow clearing, to use as a landing pad for Word of Recall; is a campaign with assumptions that will tend to cause clerics to underperform vis a vis a campaign with less inimical assumptions.


I.E. leaving the dungeon to rest and do it later? Increase the difficulty of the dungeon by having the denizens set up more traps while repopulating it. So yeah, penalties for retreating. Heck, even if the DM isn't increasing the dungeon difficulty, usually there's something negative that comes with the fact that you couldn't complete the dungeon

Fleeing an Encounter will have consequences, of course.
“Penalties”, however, in this context seem to be something in excess of the results, that naturally follow from the Party’s actions.

If one overdrafts their bank account by paying their gas bill….the natural consequences could be the bill going unpaid as one’s bank refuses to honor the check you wrote, and subsequent issues with the gas company.

Being assessed Overdraft penalties by your bank…is a penalty, not a natural reaction to one’s own actions. Penalties are meant to reinforce or inhibit certain behaviors, and tend to be additive.

Having ‘Hard Eyes’, aka having very set views, ultimately, can be very problematic in conjunction with qualitative analysis.

Does a cleric that has Feather Fall as a Domain spell, for example, truly get nothing for having access Feather Fall, but never having the chance to use the spell during play?

If you think that having access to Feather Fall, but never using the spell is indeed a worthless ability in play, as a result….one might conclude that, systemically, such a viewpoint is going to ‘undervalue’ the worth of disaster preparation.

Theoretically, (from the perspective of this viewpoint), a car that should come with a spare tire, but does not have one, should sell for the same amount of money as the same car, that actually does have the spare tire.

Essentially, you are stating that the potential to use something has no value…only using something has value. Much of economic theory would disagree with that.

Pricing the value of potential use for something, is a tricky business.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

To be fair, how many games, be they homebrew or published, have you actually seen players with a stationary base of operations? The only time I've seen or heard of players having one was in Dragonheist. Outside of that, player bases tend to either be non-existent or mobile, in which case Forbiddance isn't really an option. But I will admit, that is merely from my own experience and from chatting with other players. It could be that everyone else is buying property and setting up bases, just none of the people I talk to about such things.

Dragonheist bleeds into Dungeon of the Mad Mage so there's 2. Strahd is ripe for claiming a place and fortifying it. (My group claimed Argynvostholt). Witchlight can easily be played with you falling back to the Carnival as a base. The group I played with did that from the get go, with Witch and Light pretending not to notice after they knew at least one hag was dead.). Candlejeep could easily base as a full campaign out of the fortress. Out of the adventures I've played only Out of the Abyss and Descent into Avernus that actually pushed being on the move.

Parties in my experience want bases.

[KorvinStarmast]

My criticism of them as a player is the lack of actual features in the second half of the game. As a DM I don't like the whole 'judge what their god would do!' thing of Channel Divinity and far too many get heavy armor.How would you change Divine Intervention to improve it?

Out of the adventures I've played only Out of the Abyss and Descent into Avernus that actually pushed being on the move. Tomb of Annihilation has them moving all over the place. The port only acts as a base early on.

How wall of light is not on the cleric list is beyond me. (I mean, at the least it needs to be a light domain spell)

[stoutstien]

How would you change Divine Intervention to improve it?

My personal fix is to treat it like a limited wish of sort. It starts at 3rd lv spell effects at lv 10 limited to cleric and it's domain as the pool. No components needed and doesn't count as casting for other purposes. Spell effects just happen. increases one spell level every 2 cleric level. Recovery is number of days equal to the lv of spell replicated.

[Yakk]

Round 1: Action: Twilight Sanctuary. Bonus Action: Flight.

Round 2: Action: Spirit Guardians.

Round 3: Action: Dodge. Bonus Action, Spiritual Weapon.
I'd think about moving Flight to round 2, and Spiritual Weapon to round 1. That gets you up and running faster (1 spell per round), does damage faster, and you can start flying before you start concentrating on spirit guardians still.

But I get your point.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Now, I will admit I haven't played a Land Druid before, but I have taken a Moon Druid from levels 1 to 20, and still play them a lot in AL, have a level 11 Dreams Druid, level 7 Shepard Druid, am building a Spore Druid, and have DMed a Wildfire Druid up to level 7 or 8. So as someone who plays and DMs for a looot of Druids, mid-level play is going to depend on two things:

1) Your Druid class

2) If your DM nerfs Conjuration spells or not.

Usually you are going to toss out a Concentration spell and follow it up with a class feature. And depending on your class, you may not be casting spells at all. For example, with the Moon Druid you typically wanna toss out a Concentration spell that can be cast and forgotten, transform into a Beast or Elemental, and make use of their abilities. Wildfire is pretty interesting since you use your action to summon the Wildfire Spirit, so you won't actually be casting any instantaneous spells till round 3 most of the time.

Meanwhile Sheppard Druids are simultaneously the most boring of the Druids, while also being the most involved, interesting, and difficult to play of the bunch. This is because you're always going to be casting Conjure Animals since all of your class features feed into it, probably followed by healing spells to keep your summons alive via your Spirit Totem. That said, its really hard to get bored with Conjure Animals, provided you're not summoning the same things every fight. 8 Velociraptors play very differently from 8 Giant Owls, 4 Warhorses, 2 Giant Spiders, or a Giant Constrictor Snake. Not only that, but you're going to be doing all that on a time crunch to avoid slowing down the table for everyone else. So you'll be so busy controlling your mini-army that you probably won't notice this is the 6th time in a row you've done nothing but cast Conjure Animals. XD

That said, I do have some good standbys to cast as Instantaneous spells. Keep in mind, this is just stuff for combat, Charm Person and Charm Monster are almost always handy, but the advantage on the save when fighting the target makes it less handy in combat:

Earth Tremor, Healing Word, Ice Knife, Thunderwave, Longstrider.

Earth Tremor and Thunderwave effectivly do the same thing, though Earth Tremor knocks creatures prone and creates Difficult Terrain while Thunderwave pushes and is an easy alarm if you need to get someone's attention. Healing Word is Healing Word, Ice Knife is an excellent targetable spell since its both an attack roll and a Dex save, and you don't have to hit with one for the other half to do damage. Longstrider is a really nice non-Concentration buff.


Continual Flame or Darkvision, Lesser Restoration, Wither and Bloom.

Not as many non-Concentration spells in 2nd level, though that's made up for by the fact that your 2nd level Concentration spells will be used at all levels. And some of the best of these either take up your action or Bonus Action if you still want to get the best bang for your buck with them. Wither and Bloom is cool though, since it lets you damage and heal at the same time.

Dispel Magic, Erupting Earth, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave

Dispel Magic is Dispel Magic, no need for further explanation. Erupting Earth is basically the Druid's Fireball. Now, it only deals 19.5 average damage over Fireball's 28, and it does have a smaller area it affects since its a 20ft cube and not 20ft radius. However, it has a far better damage type, magical Bludgeoning, and creates difficult terrain that remains until its cleared away.

Tidal Wave is basically the Druid's Lightningbolt, with less damage, but it knocks creatures prone. It also has a 120ft range, so you can put it up near some flying creature, knock them prone, and have them fall from the sky. And finally Plant Growth...its probably the MOTHER of all control spells. Non-Concentration, 100ft radius, cuts movement speed down to 1/4th, isn't considered Difficult Terrain so I'm pretty sure it can stack WITH Difficult Terrain for 1/5th movement, you can shape it however you like, and its technically one of the few combat spells with an actual non-combat use. Only downside is it only causes plants that are already there to grow...but then, you'd be hard pressed to find places with 0 plant-life.

Blight, Freedom of Movement, Ice Storm, and Fire Shield

Blight is a powerful single target damaging spell, though keep in mind you can't hurt undead or constructs with it. That said, always keep it handy, cause you never know when you might fight a Plant monster like a Shambling Mound. Plus, its 8d8 damage...even if it doesn't effect undead and constructs, that's a pretty good chunk of damage for a 4th level spell. Ice Storm is less damage, very good area, decent damage types, and more non-concentration difficult terrain.

Fire Shield is a great self buff, especially for Moon Druids, and Freedom of Movement is Freedom of Movement, its a top buff for a reason.

Cone of Cold, Contagion, Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds, Transmute Rock

Cone of Cold, Greater Restoration, and Mass Cure Wounds don't need an explanation. One is good damage in a large AoE, one is a catch all cure for conditions, and one is a healing spell to pick everyone up. The two interesting spells here are Contagion and Transmute Rock.

Now Contagion is kind of like Heat Metal. You're not gonna find a lot of things to cast it on...but when you do...hoooo boy. Three rounds of guaranteed, no save or concentration needed Poisoned condition, and if they fail all three saves without being killed yet, I got two words for ya: Slimy Doom. Permanent stun for the rest of the encounter. I will admit, I've never seen Slimy Doom in action yet, mostly because DMs will burn ALL of their Legendary Saves to avoid that fate. Leaving them open to, say, Hold Monster from an ally.

Meanwhile Transmute Rock is a surprisingly versatile spell, in nearly every situation.

Some good stuff here. As I read it I'm less sure what my players have to complain about. 2 Moons and a Shepherd (3 different players) and they all weren't loving their non-concentration options.

[Zuras]

Some good stuff here. As I read it I'm less sure what my players have to complain about. 2 Moons and a Shepherd (3 different players) and they all weren't loving their non-concentration options.

Most of those are all spells added to the base druid list in Tasha’s. The Druid PHB spell list is very concentration heavy.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Most of those are all spells added to the base druid list in Tasha’s. The Druid PHB spell list is very concentration heavy.

It's not actually that far out of line with other classes. From another thread where I did the math (without including Tasha's):

Class: Total spells, non-concentration spells
Artificer: 98, 62 (63%) non-concentration
Bard: 146, 91 (62%) non-concentration
Cleric: 119, 80 (67%) non-concentration (lowest total of any full caster)
Druid: 158, 78 (49%) non-concentration
Paladin: 50, 20 (40%) non-concentration (lowest total, highest percentage of concentration)
Ranger: 61, 28 (46%) non-concentration
Sorcerer: 210, 110 (52%) non-concentration (second highest total)
Warlock: 131, 68 (52%) non-concentration
Wizard: 350, 196 (56%) non-concentration (highest total)

Tasha's added 16 spells to the druid list, of which 7 (43.7%) were non-concentration. So Tasha's actually made it worse (very very slightly) -- now they have 85 out of 174 spells that are non-concentration (48.9% vas 49.3% before Tasha's).

And note that rangers and paladins both have a larger % of concentration spells and sorcerers and warlocks are pretty darn close (52% vs 49%). Actually, artificers, bards, and clerics stand out as the least affected by concentration. Pity that most of those non-concentration spells are fairly weak.

[Hael]

The Cleric (except Twilight/Peace) are widely seen in the optimization community as the worst full caster in 5e. So, your assessment is correct.

The Bard, Druid, & Paladin are very strong classes, and I would say they are better than the Cleric at level 3+.
.

I mean it depends the level. Bards and Paladins are not going to be better than a cleric until a good bit later (probably around lvl 7-9 for most Bards, and a paladin really does different things but takes awhile to get going as well due to the Madness).

Clerics are incredibly strong in tier1-2. Even the best class in the game (wizard) is probably not optimal at lvl 5 compared to a generic lvl 5 cleric. Even their much maligned tier3-4 is fine for the most part. They get spells like conjure celestial and heal, which are some of the best spells in the game.

If we are talking 1-20 all together, I would put them somewhere in the mid ground. They are above warlocks, and probably about equal with sorcerors. Of course certain subclasses (Tasha’s clerics) go straight to the top of any list.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It's not actually that far out of line with other classes. From another thread where I did the math (without including Tasha's):

Class: Total spells, non-concentration spells
Artificer: 98, 62 (63%) non-concentration
Bard: 146, 91 (62%) non-concentration
Cleric: 119, 80 (67%) non-concentration (lowest total of any full caster)
Druid: 158, 78 (49%) non-concentration
Paladin: 50, 20 (40%) non-concentration (lowest total, highest percentage of concentration)
Ranger: 61, 28 (46%) non-concentration
Sorcerer: 210, 110 (52%) non-concentration (second highest total)
Warlock: 131, 68 (52%) non-concentration
Wizard: 350, 196 (56%) non-concentration (highest total)

Tasha's added 16 spells to the druid list, of which 7 (43.7%) were non-concentration. So Tasha's actually made it worse (very very slightly) -- now they have 85 out of 174 spells that are non-concentration (48.9% vas 49.3% before Tasha's).

And note that rangers and paladins both have a larger % of concentration spells and sorcerers and warlocks are pretty darn close (52% vs 49%). Actually, artificers, bards, and clerics stand out as the least affected by concentration. Pity that most of those non-concentration spells are fairly weak.

A couple of things:
I appreciate the work that went into providing the stats... but (and maybe this wasn't clear from my earlier post) it's combat I was referring to and where the issue may lie.
Providing more spells may make the % worse, but adding even 1 decent non-concentration combat spell/ level is significantly better.

[sithlordnergal]

Not sure how you're getting that. There is only a *very* slight gap in the damage-on-hit of the two creatures, and this difference is eclipsed by the difference in accuracy.

The Celestial attacks 3 times for 2d6+8 (15) with +9-+11 to hit (just from base prof+stat, you can potentially have more).
The Annis Hag attacks 3 times for 3d6+5 (15.5) with +8 to hit.

This results in the Celestial having a higher average DPR against most ACs.

Edit: As I stated earlier, the Celestial will outdamage against AC 13+ with +9 to hit, and 11+ with +11 to hit. Here it is on Anydice: https://anydice.com/program/29145

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/980734582867497060/unknown.png
This is the output vs AC 13. The gap will only get considerably larger as AC and/or Spell Attack Bonus increases.

I must have been doing my math wrong last night then. Well, you are correct, from the damage standpoint, Summon Celestial does deal more damage. I still wouldn't call it the superior spell, but it does deal more damage.

[strangebloke]

It's not actually that far out of line with other classes. From another thread where I did the math (without including Tasha's):

Class: Total spells, non-concentration spells
Artificer: 98, 62 (63%) non-concentration
Bard: 146, 91 (62%) non-concentration
Cleric: 119, 80 (67%) non-concentration (lowest total of any full caster)
Druid: 158, 78 (49%) non-concentration
Paladin: 50, 20 (40%) non-concentration (lowest total, highest percentage of concentration)
Ranger: 61, 28 (46%) non-concentration
Sorcerer: 210, 110 (52%) non-concentration (second highest total)
Warlock: 131, 68 (52%) non-concentration
Wizard: 350, 196 (56%) non-concentration (highest total)

Tasha's added 16 spells to the druid list, of which 7 (43.7%) were non-concentration. So Tasha's actually made it worse (very very slightly) -- now they have 85 out of 174 spells that are non-concentration (48.9% vas 49.3% before Tasha's).

And note that rangers and paladins both have a larger % of concentration spells and sorcerers and warlocks are pretty darn close (52% vs 49%). Actually, artificers, bards, and clerics stand out as the least affected by concentration. Pity that most of those non-concentration spells are fairly weak.

nice write up, though I feel the need to point out that the issue is less that literally every spell is concentration, and more that a lot of the druids good combat spells are concentration. Lets say you're concentrating on spike growth and you want to cast a spell in combat. Nobody is down so healing word is out. What else do you have? Earth tremor? Ice Knife? Wither and Bloom? Thunderwave? These spells aren't terrible but compare thunderwave to shatter and its really not impressive.

Most of the good non-concentration spells druid has are either utility (water breathing, speak with plants) or boring-but-effective buffs like Longstrider.

Conversely, while wizards have more concentration spells, their non-concentration spells are things like shield and fireball and lightning bolt and counterspell. Clerics have spiritual weapon.

This effect does get overstated, but it does exist. I think in reality druid players try to take 'only the good spells' and end up blocked by concentration. Ice Storm isn't fireball but its also not bad.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Class: Total spells, non-concentration spells
Artificer: 98, 62 (63%) non-concentration
Bard: 146, 91 (62%) non-concentration
Cleric: 119, 80 (67%) non-concentration (lowest total of any full caster)
Druid: 158, 78 (49%) non-concentration
Paladin: 50, 20 (40%) non-concentration (lowest total, highest percentage of concentration)
Ranger: 61, 28 (46%) non-concentration
Sorcerer: 210, 110 (52%) non-concentration (second highest total)
Warlock: 131, 68 (52%) non-concentration
Wizard: 350, 196 (56%) non-concentration (highest total)

Tasha's added 16 spells to the druid list, of which 7 (43.7%) were non-concentration. So Tasha's actually made it worse (very very slightly) -- now they have 85 out of 174 spells that are non-concentration (48.9% vas 49.3% before Tasha's).


Thank you for the list!

I do tend to think if is problematic for a full caster class like the Druid, to have similar percentages of Concentration as the half-caster classes.

A Ranger or Paladin, want to rely on their weapon attacks for damage, and using Concentration magic helps the half-casters gain the most benefit from their limited spell slots.

The non weapon based Artficer subclasses receive boots to their Cantrip damage.
Warlocks, also receive boosts to their Cantrip damage.
Druids do not receive any Cantrip damage enhancements.

This either encourages players to use Wildshape, while Concentrating on a spell, or to use spells like Conjure Animals or Spike Growth, that can provide huge bursts of damage.

Presumably, WotC, also has a list similar to the one you produced, so perhaps this was intentional.

[sithlordnergal]

If we can bend the definition of “stationary base of operations” to include naval vessels, airships, and demiplanes…the people I play with tend to acquire these in every campaign, that is not a one shot or mini-campaign.

Clearly, in a campaign that disallows a cleric from consecrating even something as meagre as a broom closet, or meadow clearing, to use as a landing pad for Word of Recall; is a campaign with assumptions that will tend to cause clerics to underperform vis a vis a campaign with less inimical assumptions.

Its mostly due to the wording of both spells. Forbiddance fortifies a very specific area, and if you want to make Forbiddance permanent you have to cast it on the same location for 30 days. Now, while there isn't any official RAW answer I can find, that says to me whatever you cast Forbiddance on has to remain in that location, it needs to remain in the same spot or it loses the benefit of Forbiddance. Now if your DM does allow it to be cast on a vessel or airship, then it becomes much, much better. As for casting on a Demiplane...you'd want to make sure to leave one spot open as an entrance, otherwise you just can't come back to the Demiplane since the password only prevents the damage.

As for Word of Recall, its actually really easy to decide if it works or not. The spell specifies "You must designate a sanctuary by casting this spell within a location, such as a temple, dedicated to or strongly linked to your deity. If you attempt to cast the spell in this manner in an area that isn’t dedicated to your deity, the spell has no effect." So unless your broom closet or meadow clearing has been transformed into a temple dedicated to your deity, it'll fail. That isn't to say you can't do that to a place, you can consecrate it, it just requires a bit more work than "I'm here in a closet, lets set up Word of Recall".



Fleeing an Encounter will have consequences, of course.
“Penalties”, however, in this context seem to be something in excess of the results, that naturally follow from the Party’s actions.

If one overdrafts their bank account by paying their gas bill….the natural consequences could be the bill going unpaid as one’s bank refuses to honor the check you wrote, and subsequent issues with the gas company.

Being assessed Overdraft penalties by your bank…is a penalty, not a natural reaction to one’s own actions. Penalties are meant to reinforce or inhibit certain behaviors, and tend to be additive.


You know what, you're correct, I should have used the word "consequences" instead of "penalties". That's on me. So I'll correct myself, usually fleeing a dungeon has some negative consequences, meaning casting Word of Recall as a quick escape generally just means you're going to have a harder time later.



Having ‘Hard Eyes’, aka having very set views, ultimately, can be very problematic in conjunction with qualitative analysis.

Does a cleric that has Feather Fall as a Domain spell, for example, truly get nothing for having access Feather Fall, but never having the chance to use the spell during play?

If you think that having access to Feather Fall, but never using the spell is indeed a worthless ability in play, as a result….one might conclude that, systemically, such a viewpoint is going to ‘undervalue’ the worth of disaster preparation.

Theoretically, (from the perspective of this viewpoint), a car that should come with a spare tire, but does not have one, should sell for the same amount of money as the same car, that actually does have the spare tire.

Essentially, you are stating that the potential to use something has no value…only using something has value. Much of economic theory would disagree with that.

Pricing the value of potential use for something, is a tricky business.

I don't think economic theory or car tire example works here. To go with the Feather Fall example, if you always have Feather Fall prepared, but you never use it, its not adding any sort of value to your class, nor is it actually making your class better in any way. You aren't becoming a better caster, and your list of spells has not been improved over, say, a Wizard, Druid, or Bard. Its also a compounding issue, where the more spells you have that go unused, the less useful your Domain spells are as a whole.

For example, the Arcana Domain has Detect Magic, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Nystul's Mystic Aura, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle, Arcane Eye, Leomund's Secret Chest, Planar Binding, and Teleportation Circle.

Out of those 10, only about 4 or 5 are going to be used regularly, depending on if you use Teleportation Circle a lot. The rest are niche spells with varying levels of use, with one being highly campaign dependent, Magic Weapon, and the last being a bad spell that really shouldn't be used, Secret Chest. So about half to 3/5ths of the Domain Spells here are spare tires, if we really want to go back to the car comparison.

Now, if the numbers were reversed, and it was only 2/5ths of the spells that were niche, then I'd agree with you. In fact, some Cleric Domain Spell lists are stacked. The Forge Cleric's Domain list has Identify, Searing Smite, Magic Weapon, Heat Metal, Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy, Fabricate, Wall of Fire, Animate Objects, and Creation. There aren't nearly as many niche spells here, in fact the only niche spells I can really see that might never be cast are Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon. Everything else is something you can find a use for, no matter whenever and where ever you are. Its also a spell list that promotes a bit of creativity with Creation and Fabricate.

But as shown by the Arcana Cleric, not ever Cleric Domain is like the Forge Cleric. And if those Domain lists are supposed to make up for the Cleric's general lack of spells, then the Domain spell lists should all be similar in power to the Forge Domain's list. And they aren't...they're really hit or miss.

[LudicSavant]

I must have been doing my math wrong last night then. Well, you are correct, from the damage standpoint, Summon Celestial does deal more damage. I still wouldn't call it the superior spell, but it does deal more damage.

Okay, so let's check out stuff besides just damage (which we've now established Summon Celestial wins at).

As we've established, Summon Celestial does more damage against AC 13+ (at minimum proficiency), and that gap only grows as spell attack bonus and AC (or other defenses) increase.

But not only that, it's doing that damage reliably. It has a 190/640 foot engagement range, can fly, and deals a damage type that's second only to Force. It is rock solid reliable and has relatively few outright bad matchups against tier 3+ threats. If you prep Summon Celestial, you can basically bet that you'll be able to get your money's worth. It even comes with a 15 hp heal it can hand out to anyone in the party (as opposed to counting on enemies hitting *the summon* in order for it to contribute HP value), and the safety net of being able to yo-yo people.

Now, Conjure Fey is pretty much the exact opposite of this consistency. Let's list just a few of the factors here.

1) The spell takes 10 rounds to cast, meaning you do not merely desire but require a decent-length pre-cast opportunity. (Celestial takes 1 round)
2) You lose control of the creature if the spell ends, and it specifically carries a grudge against you. Not just "everyone in general" like the demon summon. No. Its grudge is specifically against you and your companions, and it should be expected to carry out that grudge like a fey.
3) The DM decides what fey you get. They might not give you the strongest one. Even if they give you one of the better ones, it might not be ideal for your upcoming matchups (you had to pre-cast, remember).
4) Let's say you get one of the decent ones, the Annis Hag. Let's then see how good this creature is.
- It has a good deal less damage than the Celestial.
- It has fewer resistances/immunities (as of the update).
- Since you had to pre-cast it, it needs to just walk at foes. And it ain't fast, and it doesn't have ranged options, and we're in tier 3+, and presumably talking about a game where optimization is actually relevant... in which case, tier 3+ is a place where it is absolutely not free to just walk at enemies. It doesn't have a good matchup against fliers, kiters, controllers, dispellers, and more.
- It also doesn't have a good matchup against... anything with nonmagical damage resistance, which turns out to be a lot of the things you would care to focus single target damage on at tier 3+. And quite a few of the ones that don't have that resistance fall into other categories it's not good with (fliers / kiters / controllers / hard to hit / etc).
- It does have Fog Cloud, though. So there's that. Fog Cloud is nice.

So what's the Annis Hag bringing to the table for all these drawbacks? Some extra HP (instead of good positioning and range and consistent damage), and Fog Cloud/Disguise Self (instead of a heal). And I'd say those things are only situationally better than just plugging higher damage from long range, and the thing about situational bennies is that... well, you don't get to choose the situation that you get X fey. The DM does.

A big part of optimizing is minimizing the chance for things to go wrong (or, how wrong they can go when they do go wrong). You throw up Conjure Fey, there are so, so many ways for things to not go according to plan. And even if you don't run into one of those hiccups, it often (not always) still will get outperformed by the Celestial.

I'm not saying it's a bad spell (because it's not). But it's not really the sort of spell that blows all the competition out of the water.

[sithlordnergal]

Okay, so let's check out stuff besides just damage (which Summon Celestial wins at).

As we've established, Summon Celestial does more damage against AC 13+ (at minimum proficiency), and that gap only grows as spell attack bonus and AC (or other defenses) increase.

But not only that, it's doing that damage reliably. It has a 190/640 foot engagement range, can fly, and deals a damage type that's second only to Force. It is rock solid reliable and has few bad matchups against tier 3+ threats. If you prep Summon Celestial, you can basically bet that you'll be able to get your money's worth. It even comes with a 15 hp heal it can hand out to anyone in the party (as opposed to counting on enemies hitting *the summon* in order for it to contribute HP value). It even comes with the safety-net of being able to yo-yo people.

Now, Conjure Fey is pretty much the exact opposite of this consistency. Let's list just a few of the factors here.

1) The spell takes 10 rounds to cast, meaning you do not merely desire but require a decent-length pre-cast opportunity. (Celestial takes 1 round)
2) You lose control of the creature if the spell ends, and it specifically carries a grudge against you. Not just "everyone in general" like the demon summon. No. Its grudge is specifically against you and your companions, and it should be expected to carry out that grudge like a fey.
3) The DM decides what fey you get. They might not give you the strongest one. Even if they give you one of the better ones, it might not be ideal for your upcoming matchups (you had to pre-cast, remember).
4) Let's say you get one of the decent ones, the Annis Hag. Let's then see how good this creature is.
- It has a good deal less damage than the Celestial.
- It has fewer resistances/immunities (as of the update).
- Since you had to pre-cast it, it needs to just walk at foes. And it ain't fast, and it doesn't have ranged options, and we're in tier 3+, and presumably talking about a game where optimization is actually relevant... in which case, tier 3+ is a place where it is absolutely not free to just walk at enemies. It doesn't have a good matchup against fliers, kiters, controllers, dispellers, and more.
- It also doesn't have a good matchup against... anything with nonmagical damage resistance, which turns out to be a lot of the things you would care to focus single target damage on at tier 3+. And quite a few of the ones that don't have that resistance fall into other categories it's not good with (fliers / kiters / controllers / hard to hit / etc).
- It does have Fog Cloud, though. So there's that. Fog Cloud is nice.

So what's the Annis Hag bringing to the table for all these drawbacks? Some extra HP (instead of good positioning and range), and Fog Cloud/Disguise Self (instead of a heal). And I'd say those things are only situationally better than just plugging higher damage from long range, and the thing about situational bennies is that... well, you don't get to choose the situation that you get X fey. The DM does.

Your earlier claim was that Conjure Fey is blowing the entire rest of the spell list out of the water, and that it was not merely better but far, far better. I'd say that it's a far cry from that. A big part of optimizing is minimizing the chance for things to go wrong (or, how wrong they can go when they do go wrong). You throw up Conjure Fey, there are so, so many ways for things to not go according to plan. And even if you don't run into one of those many hiccups, it often still will get outperformed by the Celestial.

Isn't Conjure Fey only an Action to cast?Let me recheck the spell...Ohhh, I was misreading that! I will concede, Conjure Fey is more along the lines of a free Planar Ally than it is Summon Celestial. Making Summon Celestial the superior Conjuration spell. That was on me.

Though, while you are correct about Summon Celestial, I would still say the rest of the Cleric's 6th level spell list is inferior over all to the Druid's. They do have standout spells as you noted, like Truesight and Create Undead, but the rest are matched by the Druid, and the Druid ends up with more variety and ultimately stronger spells in general.

[Zuras]

This effect does get overstated, but it does exist. I think in reality druid players try to take 'only the good spells' and end up blocked by concentration. Ice Storm isn't fireball but its also not bad.

Ice Storm is pretty terrible. The damage is pedestrian and it doesn’t do much in the way of crowd control. I’ve actually found Tidal Wave the most effective, as it’s easier to shape it to only hit enemies, and knocking opponents prone often gives your allies advantage while still keeping them from closing the distance. This can be particularly helpful if the spell you’re concentrating on is a summoning spell.

[LudicSavant]

Isn't Conjure Fey only an Action to cast?Let me recheck the spell...Ohhh, I was misreading that! I will concede, Conjure Fey is more along the lines of a free Planar Ally than it is Summon Celestial. Making Summon Celestial the superior Conjuration spell. That was on me.

Though, while you are correct about Summon Celestial, I would still say the rest of the Cleric's 6th level spell list is inferior over all to the Druid's.

Why, exactly?

[Thunderous Mojo]

I don't think economic theory or car tire example works here. To go with the Feather Fall example, if you always have Feather Fall prepared, but you never use it, its not adding any sort of value to your class, nor is it actually making your class better in any way. You aren't becoming a better caster, and your list of spells has not been improved over, say, a Wizard, Druid, or Bard. Its also a compounding issue, where the more spells you have that go unused, the less useful your Domain spells are as a whole.

Being Prepared for an emergency is not about being a better ____(fill in the blank).
It is about being an alive ____(fill in the blank) when the 💩hits the fan.

As predicted, your model tends to undervalue or apply no value for emergency preparation. Your model seems to prioritize immediacy.



For example, the Arcana Domain has Detect Magic, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Nystul's Mystic Aura, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle, Arcane Eye, Leomund's Secret Chest, Planar Binding, and Teleportation Circle.

I find this to be a good a flavorful list.

The list indicates, that Arcana Cleric subclass is focused on extra planar creatures. The Arcana cleric has a Channel Divinity that is targeted towards Extraplanar creatures, and the Arcana cleric can also learn Summon Fiend from the Wizard list.

One might go so far to say that perhaps since the subclass abilities of the Arcana cleric are quite strong, the Domain List is geared more towards flavorfully expanding what the cleric class can do, and less on power.

The Forge cleric subclass abilities strike me as weaker than an Arcane Cleric’s, and the Forge cleric has a strong Domain list as a consequence.

[sithlordnergal]

Being Prepared for an emergency is not about being a better ____(fill in the blank).
It is about being an alive ____(fill in the blank) when the 💩hits the fan.

As predicted, your model tends to undervalue or apply no value for emergency preparation. Your model seems to prioritize immediacy.


Ahh, but being prepared for a specific emergency has no value if the emergency never happens. And a lot of the Cleric's spells only work in those specific emergencies. Emergency prep is nice and extremely handy, but you're not really getting a lot of those emergency prep spells. Not unless you're choosing the right subclass.



I find this to be a good a flavorful list.

The list indicates, that Arcana Cleric subclass is focused on extra planar creatures. The Arcana cleric has a Channel Divinity that is targeted towards Extraplanar creatures, and the Arcana cleric can also learn Summon Fiend from the Wizard list.

One might go so far to say that perhaps since the subclass abilities of the Arcana cleric are quite strong, the Domain List is geared more towards flavorfully expanding what the cleric class can do, and less on power.

The Forge cleric subclass abilities strike me as weaker than an Arcane Cleric’s, and the Forge cleric has a strong Domain list as a consequence.

I'll agree that the Arcana Cleric has a flavorful list, but I would not call it a good list. The Arcana Cleric Channel Divinity certainly focuses on Extraplanar beings and places, but they could have done a far better job at showing that with their Domain Spells. Replace Magic Weapon with Find Steed or Dust Devil, replace Leomund's Secret Chest with Dimension Door, Faithful Hound, or Private Sanctum. You can still give them a flavorful spell list while also improving them.

And I actually find the Forge Cleric has the stronger abilities out of the two. Yeah, Arcana Cleric has their Arcane Abjuration and the ability to learn 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level Wizard spells, but I wouldn't say they're stronger by any means.

I find the Forge Cleric's Heavy Armor, free +1 armor or weapon, fire resistance and eventual immunity, bonus AC when wearing heavy armor, and resistance to non-magical B/S/P to be far more useful in a lot more situations than the Arcana Cleric's Arcane Initiate, Arcane Abjuration, and Spell Breaker. The only thing the Arcana Cleric does have that is definitevly better is Arcane Mastery, but that's a single ability gained at level 17.

[LudicSavant]

Isn't Conjure Fey only an Action to cast?Let me recheck the spell...Ohhh, I was misreading that! I will concede, Conjure Fey is more along the lines of a free Planar Ally than it is Summon Celestial. Making Summon Celestial the superior Conjuration spell. That was on me.

Though, while you are correct about Summon Celestial, I would still say the rest of the Cleric's 6th level spell list is inferior over all to the Druid's. They do have standout spells as you noted, like Truesight and Create Undead, but the rest are matched by the Druid, and the Druid ends up with more variety and ultimately stronger spells in general.

Why, exactly?

The Cleric will have more spells prepared (thus more variety in the moment), and I'm not really seeing any 6th level Druid spells that outcompete the Cleric's go-to selections in any significant way.

I mean, if you don't value the travel or base-building spells much, we can cross that off. And we can probably cross off the "Investiture of X", Primordial Ward, and Flesh to Stone spells. And we can cross off the stuff that's "matched." And we can cross off the stuff that's shared between both lists. And we can cross off Conjure Fey since you've said Summon Celestial is superior. I guess there's... Bones of the Earth?

[sithlordnergal]

Why, exactly?

The Cleric will have more spells prepared (thus more variety in the moment), and I'm not really seeing any 6th level Druid spells that outcompete the Cleric's go-to selections in any significant way.

As I've said before, the number of prepared spells means far, far less then the quality. And the quality of a lot of Cleric Domains spells suffer, badly.

I find their control, utility, and buff spells tend to be far more handy then the Clerics. Wind Walk and Move Earth are simply handier then Word of Recall and Forbiddance. Transport via Plants and Druid Grove do similar things as Word of Recall and Forbiddance, though I feel Transport via Plants is weaker then Word of Recall.

The only 6th level buff spell has is Trueseeing, but Primordial Ward and the Investitures of Fire or Ice are equal to it. Though Trueseeing can be given to others while the other three are Self buffs.

The Cleric's only form of Control spell is Blade Barrier, and Wall of Thorns is equal to it. Druids also gain Flesh to Stone, which is a pretty handy spell since it Restrains creatures, and Bones of the Earth, which is a handy non-Concentration Wall of Stone that can damage creatures under it.

Now, Clerics do have Planar Ally and Create Undead, while Druids only have Conjure Fey. So that is a point in the Cleric's favor.

But that's only one bit of their unique spell lists that the Cleric really, solidly outperforms the Druid. The rest the Druid can emulate, or is just better at doing.

[LudicSavant]

The only 6th level buff spell has is Trueseeing, but Primordial Ward and the Investitures of Fire or Ice are equal to it. Though Trueseeing can be given to others while the other three are Self buffs.

I don't think those things are equal.

True Seeing is a high-value tool for a party to grab. It's non-Concentration, lasts an hour, has powerful offensive and defensive combo potential, and counters a lot of nasty things.

Primordial Ward provides elemental resistance to one person (yourself) for only a few rounds, and takes Concentration. You basically have to pre-cast it right before kicking down the door or spend an actual combat action on it, then hope they target you (not someone else) with a big enough elemental punch of the correct type to be worth a 6th level slot, Action, and Concentration.


Wind Walk and Move Earth are simply handier then Word of Recall and Forbiddance.

I personally think Forbiddance is kind of a big deal because I don't like getting scry-and-died or ambushed in camp all the time. And it's a ritual! It doesn't even cost me spell slots for this!

Really though, the spells are kinda doing different things.


The Cleric's only form of Control spell is Blade Barrier, and Wall of Thorns is equal to it. Then that's equal, not an advantage.


Druids also gain Flesh to Stone, which is a pretty handy spell since it Restrains creatures

Flesh to Stone is not a good 6th level spell.

We're talking about a 6th level spell that can Restrain one, and only one creature. If you can see them. And they fail an all-or-nothing Con save. And they get a new Con save every turn.

A Cleric with the same 6th level slot could have done a 3-target Banishment.


As I've said before, the number of prepared spells means far, far less then the quality.

Then what are the big quality spells that are making the difference here?

You're giving me Flesh to Stone and Investiture of X and Primordial Ward. Those aren't quality spells.

Wind Walk and Move Earth are nice and all but I'm not really seeing how they're "oh darn, now you're a way better character than the person using their 6th slot on Summon Celestial or True Seeing or Heroes' Feast" spells.

edit Noticed you said this earlier:

And the rest of the comparisons end up being the same. Forbiddance is nice...as an NPC spell. PCs, who tend to always be on the move without a real base of operation, won't be making use of that spell.

Sounds like you are underestimating Forbiddance here. It's great for PCs on the move!

It only takes 10 minutes to set up Forbiddance. It doesn't consume its component unless you make it permanent. You can just cast it as a ritual at campsites and such. Or even block off the entrance of crypts or the like.

[Frogreaver]

For me I tend to look at what a character can do the first 3 rounds of combat.

I think highly of light clerics so I'll use one as an example:
Turn 1: Fireball (or other concentration spell)
Turn 2: Radiance of Dawn + Spiritual Weapon
Turn 3: Command + Spiritual Weapon attack

Or consider the life cleric:
Turn 1: Aura of Purity (or other concentration spell)
Turn 2: Cantrip + Sanctuary
Turn 3: Preserve Life + mass healing word

Now Consider a Druid:
Turn 1: Plant Growth
Turn 2: Polymorph
Turn 3: Cantrip?

*Feel free to help me with the Druid's turn if something doesn't sound right.

When I look at the classes through this lens I'm giving the cleric the slight edge just because he has such a strong action economy, even though the Druids spells individually may be slightly superior.

I'd give the Druid a solid out of combat edge. He just seems to get alot more there - but it's not like clerics have bad out of combat tools.

[sithlordnergal]

I don't think those things are equal.

True Seeing is a high-value tool for a party to grab. It's non-Concentration, lasts an hour, has powerful offensive and defensive combo potential, and counters a lot of nasty things.

Primordial Ward provides elemental resistance to one person (yourself) for only a few rounds, and takes Concentration. You basically have to pre-cast it right before kicking down the door or spend an actual combat action on it, then hope they target you (not someone else) with a big enough elemental punch of the correct type to be worth a 6th level slot, Action, and Concentration.


True Seeing is a nice tool, but I wouldn't say its that high value though. I will say that its a really good spell, but I honestly can't say its better then Primordial Ward, which grants Resistance to 5 different damage types and 1 round immunity to one of them, or Investiture of Flame/Ice, which grants you immunity to Fire and Cold damage, resistance to the other damage type, and either passive damage similar to a Fire Elemental or passive difficult terrain. I'd say those are pretty relatively equal, and given the Druid does have three of those instead of just one, the Druid does come out on top in my eyes.



I personally think Forbiddance is kind of a big deal because I don't like getting scry-and-died or ambushed in camp all the time. And it's a ritual! It doesn't even cost me spell slots for this!

Really though, the spells are kinda doing different things.

Then that's equal, not an advantage.


How often are you getting Scry 'n' died here to make it a worthwhile spell? Yeah, preventing scry 'n' die tactics from the DM is a nice, niche use, but the more versatile and flexible a utility spell is, the better. Forbiddance isn't very flexible. It does one thing really well, but that one thing is pretty niche. Meanwhile Word of Recall has a similar inflexibility, in that it can only take you to that one space. Wind Walk gives 11 creatures a 300ft Fly speed and resistance to non-magical weapons. Now, the resistance isn't really that important, but that's more people than you can target than with Teleport.

Move Earth is similar, its slowly than Wind Walk, but we're talking 10 minutes to make a 20ft deep trench, a 20ft high wall that can't be dispelled, pillars, and more. Need to destabilize a wall? Move Earth can actually do a fine job of doing that, especially since you don't need to see the spot you're targeting. Its a pretty darn versatile.




Then what are the big quality spells that are making the difference here?

You're giving me Flesh to Stone and Investiture of X and Primordial Ward. Those aren't quality spells.

Wind Walk and Move Earth are nice and all but I'm not really seeing how they're "oh darn, now you're a way better character than the person using their 6th slot on Summon Celestial or True Seeing or Heroes' Feast" spells.

I guess it depends on what you look for in a spell. Truesight is nice, but I'd rather have immunity and resistance to damage, or the ability to give 11 people flight, or the ability to move quite a lot of earth in a short amount of time over the ability to see something invisible, or see through illusions. As for Heroes' Feast and Summon Celestial, well Druids can cast Heroes' Feast, and if we want to talk about upcasting lower level spells then Summon Celestial gets to contend with the likes of a non-nerfed 5th level Conjure Animals, 6th level Conjure Woodland Beings, 6th level Summon Fey/Beast.

And even you have to admit, its hard to compete with 16 creatures being summoned at once, even if the DM decides what's brought in or they lack ranged attacks. Because unless you're playing at a table with a DM who's being extremely hostile, you're gonna get something usable with those 16 creatures. And if they are hostile, well I bet good money you wouldn't be casting Summon Celestial either since you need a pretty specific material component and the DM can very, very easily say "Nope not available for purchase"

Personally, I find the 6th level spells unique to the Cleric to be bad when compared to the Druid, and this gets compounded by the lack of class features when compared to the Druid. But if you think their spells are strong, not much I can do to convince you otherwise.

[Frogreaver]

True Seeing is a nice tool, but I wouldn't say its that high value though. I will say that its a really good spell, but I honestly can't say its better then Primordial Ward, which grants Resistance to 5 different damage types and 1 round immunity to one of them, or Investiture of Flame/Ice, which grants you immunity to Fire and Cold damage, resistance to the other damage type, and either passive damage similar to a Fire Elemental or passive difficult terrain. I'd say those are pretty relatively equal, and given the Druid does have three of those instead of just one, the Druid does come out on top in my eyes.




How often are you getting Scry 'n' died here to make it a worthwhile spell? Yeah, preventing scry 'n' die tactics from the DM is a nice, niche use, but the more versatile and flexible a utility spell is, the better. Forbiddance isn't very flexible. It does one thing really well, but that one thing is pretty niche. Meanwhile Word of Recall has a similar inflexibility, in that it can only take you to that one space. Wind Walk gives 11 creatures a 300ft Fly speed and resistance to non-magical weapons. Now, the resistance isn't really that important, but that's more people than you can target than with Teleport.

Move Earth is similar, its slowly than Wind Walk, but we're talking 10 minutes to make a 20ft deep trench, a 20ft high wall that can't be dispelled, pillars, and more. Need to destabilize a wall? Move Earth can actually do a fine job of doing that, especially since you don't need to see the spot you're targeting. Its a pretty darn versatile.





I guess it depends on what you look for in a spell. Truesight is nice, but I'd rather have immunity and resistance to damage, or the ability to give 11 people flight, or the ability to move quite a lot of earth in a short amount of time over the ability to see something invisible, or see through illusions. As for Heroes' Feast and Summon Celestial, well Druids can cast Heroes' Feast, and if we want to talk about upcasting lower level spells then Summon Celestial gets to contend with the likes of a non-nerfed 5th level Conjure Animals, 6th level Conjure Woodland Beings, 6th level Summon Fey/Beast.

And even you have to admit, its hard to compete with 16 creatures being summoned at once, even if the DM decides what's brought in or they lack ranged attacks. Because unless you're playing at a table with a DM who's being extremely hostile, you're gonna get something usable with those 16 creatures. And if they are hostile, well I bet good money you wouldn't be casting Summon Celestial either since you need a pretty specific material component and the DM can very, very easily say "Nope not available for purchase"

Personally, I find the 6th level spells unique to the Cleric to be bad when compared to the Druid, and this gets compounded by the lack of class features when compared to the Druid. But if you think their spells are strong, not much I can do to convince you otherwise.

To me the major weakness here is that the arguments almost exclusively rely on Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings.

[sithlordnergal]

For me I tend to look at what a character can do the first 3 rounds of combat.

I think highly of light clerics so I'll use one as an example:
Turn 1: Fireball (or other concentration spell)
Turn 2: Radiance of Dawn + Spiritual Weapon
Turn 3: Command + Spiritual Weapon attack

Or consider the life cleric:
Turn 1: Aura of Purity (or other concentration spell)
Turn 2: Cantrip + Sanctuary
Turn 3: Preserve Life + mass healing word

Now Consider a Druid:
Turn 1: Plant Growth
Turn 2: Polymorph
Turn 3: Cantrip?

*Feel free to help me with the Druid's turn if something doesn't sound right.

When I look at the classes through this lens I'm giving the cleric the slight edge just because he has such a strong action economy, even though the Druids spells individually may be slightly superior.

I'd give the Druid a solid out of combat edge. He just seems to get alot more there - but it's not like clerics have bad out of combat tools.

Yeaaah, I don't think that sounds very correct...If you're a Druid with 4th level spell slots, you really shouldn't be casting cantrips by then. Assuming you gave Polymorph to someone else, you should be doing something like

Turn 1 Plant Growth
Turn 2: Polymorph an ally
Turn 3: Casting a spell that generally causes Difficult Terrain to stack with the Plant Growth, or knocks a creature Prone

and that's assuming you're not using any of your class abilities, like the Moon's Circle Forms, or the Wildfire's Summon, the Spore's spores, the Star's combat buff, or the Sheppard's Spirit Totem. Though if you're a Sheppard, you'd be swapping Polymorph for Conjure Animals...

[sithlordnergal]

To me the major weakness here is that the arguments almost exclusively rely on Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings.

Not really, Conjure Woodland Beings and Conjure Animals is being brought up in response to upcasting Summon Celestial. Afterall, if Ludac wants to talk about an upcasted Summon Celestial as a point in favor of the Cleric's spell list being better then the Druid's, shouldn't we also compare Summon Celestail to an upcast Conjure Woodland Beings and Conjure Animals? And even then, the Druid also has Summon Fey and Summon Beast, two spells that I find are able to do Summon Celestial's job just as well.

Heck, I stayed away from Conjure Woodland Beings, Conjure Animals, Summon Fey, and Summon Beast specifically because we had been talking about 6th level spells only until the end there.

The rest of the spells I'm talking about are purely 6th level Druid spells, and spells that I feel are better and more versatile than what the Cleric has to offer. Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings make up for a very small portion of it all.

[LudicSavant]

Druids also gain Flesh to Stone, which is a pretty handy spell since it Restrains creatures

Flesh to Stone sucks as a control spell. It's a 6th level spell that...
- Target's a single target
- With a Con Save
- That's all or nothing
- and gives a save every round
- and requires you to see them
...all for just the Restrained condition. That's not worth a 6th level spell slot. And it's definitely not going to raise a class's spell list to being better than another's!


True Seeing is a nice tool, but I wouldn't say its that high value though. I will say that its a really good spell, but I honestly can't say its better then Primordial Ward, which grants Resistance to 5 different damage types and 1 round immunity to one of them

Primordial Ward just isn't a particularly good spell, just like, in general. It only lasts 1 minute, costs an Action to set up, requires Concentration, is self-only, and is outperformed by other (often lower level) buffs in more scenarios than not.

It's usually not worth casting mid-combat. And so you need to find an opportunity to pre-cast it (basically immediately before kicking down the door), and have that be a time you wouldn't rather pre-cast... pretty much any of a hundred other Concentration things.

When you do pre-cast it, you go in and you've only got yourself protected, and only from certain damage types, and only while your Concentration lasts. They can attack another party member. They can break your Concentration. They can use a different damage type. It's neither reliable nor potent for its slot level. If you want to be protected from elemental attacks, there are generally better options for both classes.


I guess it depends on what you look for in a spell.

I like elemental defenses. I don't like Primordial Ward because it's not very good at its job.


How often are you getting Scry 'n' died here to make it a worthwhile spell?

In Tier 3+ games where optimization is actually relevant? Being prepared for ambushes of that sort is pretty much one of the top things on the checklist to make sure your character will live a few sessions, and Forbiddance is one of the best tools for it.


Forbiddance isn't very flexible. It does one thing really well, but that one thing is pretty niche. Forbiddance counters teleportation, planar travel, and is a giant 24-hour hazard against 5 common creature types. It has quite a few potent applications.

Earlier in this conversation you didn't even seem to be aware that it could be used by adventurers on the move, so I'm not sure why you're arguing about what it can do instead of trying to learn what it can do. Was not the point of this thread for you to find out what you were missing?

[Frogreaver]

Yeaaah, I don't think that sounds very correct...If you're a Druid with 4th level spell slots, you really shouldn't be casting cantrips by then. Assuming you gave Polymorph to someone else, you should be doing something like

Turn 1 Plant Growth
Turn 2: Polymorph an ally
Turn 3: Casting a spell that generally causes Difficult Terrain to stack with the Plant Growth, or knocks a creature Prone

1. It's pretty unlikely that if you cast plant growth on turn 1 that your going to need to further slow enemies on turn 3 when you should be mostly to mop up mode.
2. What spell that isn't concentration accomplishes that that?

*It's not clear that Plant Growth and difficult terrain actually stack.
PHB: You move at half speed in difficult terrain—moving 1 foot in Difficult Terrain costs 2 feet of speed—so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.
Plant Growth PHB: A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.


and that's assuming you're not using any of your class abilities, like the Moon's Circle Forms, or the Wildfire's Summon, the Spore's spores, the Star's combat buff, or the Sheppard's Spirit Totem. Though if you're a Sheppard, you'd be swapping Polymorph for Conjure Animals...

If you want to propose a better looking 3 turns then go ahead. I asked for your help there afterall.

[sithlordnergal]

1. It's pretty unlikely that if you cast plant growth on turn 1 that your going to need to further slow enemies on turn 3 when you should be mostly to mop up mode.
2. What spell that isn't concentration accomplishes that that?

*It's not clear that Plant Growth and difficult terrain actually stack.
PHB: You move at half speed in difficult terrain—moving 1 foot in Difficult Terrain costs 2 feet of speed—so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.
Plant Growth PHB: A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.



If you want to propose a better looking 3 turns then go ahead. I asked for your help there afterall.

1) Its actually pretty handy for defending places and such. Though the slowing down of enemies is more of a bonus. Also, reason Plant Growth can stack with Difficult Terrain is because Plant Growth doesn't create difficult terrain in the first place. Your movement speed would be reduced by two separate effects, kind of like how Haste and Tabaxi Speed stack with each other.

2) For Difficult Terrain you have Earth Tremor, Erupting Earth, and Ice Storm, though Ice Storm only lasts 1 Round. For the free Prone you have Earth Tremor again and Tidal Wave. Though if you wanna go for more damage, Blight is a good go to, Wither and Bloom is a new AoE spell that also lets you heal one creature that's been hit by it if you want.

[sithlordnergal]

Flesh to Stone sucks as a control spell. It's a 6th level spell that...
- Target's a single target
- With a Con Save
- That's all or nothing
- and gives a save every round
- and requires you to see them
...all for just the Restrained condition. That's not worth a 6th level spell slot. And it's definitely not going to raise a class's spell list to being better than another's!

I also find it handy for burning through Legendary saves. The Con save is a negative, but I find its still a pretty decent spell and there's a good amount of use for it. At least I get a good amount of use from it.


Primordial Ward just isn't a particularly good spell, just like, in general. It only lasts 1 minute, costs an Action to set up, requires Concentration, is self-only, and is outperformed by other (often lower level) buffs in more scenarios than not.

It's usually not worth casting mid-combat. And so you need to find an opportunity to pre-cast it (basically immediately before kicking down the door), and have that be a time you wouldn't rather pre-cast... pretty much any of a hundred other Concentration things.

When you do pre-cast it, you go in and you've only got yourself protected, and only from certain damage types, and only while your Concentration lasts. They can attack another party member. They can break your Concentration. They can use a different damage type. It's neither reliable nor potent for its slot level. If you want to be protected from elemental attacks, there are generally better options for both classes.



I like elemental defenses. I don't like Primordial Ward because it's not very good at its job.


I can't find many lower level spells that hand out elemental defenses. From what I can find you have Absorb Elements, which the Druid has but only lasts a single round and requires your Reaction, Protection from Energy, which lasts an hour but takes Concentration and only protects against an single energy type, Fire Shield, which only grants Resistance to Fire or Cold, Fizban's Platinum Shield, which is a superior Primordial Ward but is only available to Wizards and Sorcerers, Investiture of Flame/Ice, which grant immunity to Fire or Cold and resistant to Fire or Cold, and Invulnerability, which is a 9th level Wizard spell.

Primordial Ward and Fizban's Platinum Shield are the only two spells I can find that give you Resistance to more than two elemental damage types at once. Absorb Elements can give you multiple Elemental resistances, but its only one at a time, and only lasts for a single round. Meanwhile Invulnerability is just better than all of them cause, you know, Wizards gotta have the best spells. Not only that, but Primordial Ward can give you Immunity to one of the elements on the list when you're hit by it. Doesn't take a reaction or anything, you just choose to be immune to that damage type until the end of your next turn, including against the damage that let you trigger the immunity. Meaning if you take a boat load of elemental damage...you can choose to take none of that damage instead.

Now, if its the fact that it only lasts a minute, is Concentration, and takes your action to cast...then that applies to pretty much every single concentration spell in the game right there. I don't see how those are such negatives that it makes Primordial Ward bad at its job. In fact, I actually think the fact that its an Action to cast while only being a Druid spell is a boon. This is a spell you can cast near the start of combat, on the first or second round, which tends to be exactly when your Druid sublcass abilities come into play.

For subclasses like Sheppard, Stars, or Moon, you cast this on round one while activating and using your abilities. For a subclass like Wildfire, your first turn is using your Action to summon the Spirit, Bonus Action to command the Spirit, this is a perfect spell to cast on round 2 since you can cast it and still command your Spirit. Dreams lets you cast it then teleport or heal someone, since you're level 11 by the time you can cast it. The only two classes that won't actually benefit that much from casting it are Spore and Land Druids, since everything they do is an Action.



In Tier 3+ games where optimization is actually relevant? Being prepared for ambushes of that sort is pretty much one of the top things on the checklist to make sure your character will live a few sessions, and Forbiddance is one of the best tools for it.

Forbiddance counters teleportation, planar travel, and is a giant 24-hour hazard against 5 common creature types. It has quite a few potent applications.

Earlier in this conversation you didn't even seem to be aware that it could be used by adventurers on the move, so I'm not sure why you're arguing about what it can do instead of trying to learn what it can do. Was not the point of this thread for you to find out what you were missing?

You know, you're correct, the point of this thread is to find out what I'm missing. You're also right that I hadn't actually thought of casting Forbiddance at the entrance of a dungeon before entering it, so you have given the spell another use. I'll admit that I'm still not 100% convinced that its one of the best tools to prevent ambushes, not nearly as much as you feel it does since ambush by teleport just isn't a thing that happens, and I'll also admit that I still am not seeing how good Clerics are when compared to other full casters, but you have given me some food for thought.

[KorvinStarmast]

My personal fix is to treat it like a limited wish of sort. It starts at 3rd lv spell effects at lv 10 limited to cleric and it's domain as the pool. No components needed and doesn't count as casting for other purposes. Spell effects just happen. increases one spell level every 2 cleric level. Recovery is number of days equal to the lv of spell replicated. Will discuss with my players. That looks like a good approach; not sure if I would not add wish at 18 or 20 though ... bards get it, why not clerics? :smallyuk:

Ice Storm is pretty terrible. The damage is pedestrian and it doesn’t do much in the way of crowd control. I’ve actually found Tidal Wave the most effective, as it’s easier to shape it to only hit enemies, and knocking opponents prone often gives your allies advantage while still keeping them from closing the distance. This can be particularly helpful if the spell you’re concentrating on is a summoning spell. While we do like tidal wave, large swarms of mooks is one place wher Ice Storm does OK, in terms of slowing them down and getting rid of a few of them. Quantity has a quality all its own, and Ice Storm mitigates that somewhat.

[LudicSavant]

I also find it handy for burning through Legendary saves.
Flesh to Stone is a single all-or-nothing Con save with a relatively weak consequence for failure. It’s well below par as an LR burner.

You could be using stuff with multiple saves, consequences even on a success, severe consequences for failure, better save targets, and lower spell slots.


since ambush by teleport just isn't a thing that happens
Uhm, yes it is? It’s happened to me several times just in recent memory.

Like, it’s a thing that enemies are capable of, and it’s extremely effective. Some DMs intentionally avoid it because they think it's too effective.

But that sort of stuff is totally fair game in the kind of campaigns where optimization matters.

Especially if you’re playing no holds barred “combat as war” you need to *earn* your rests. Which is why there’s a whole category of effects for that.

Forbiddance bars 5 common categories of creatures from your campsite (or at least gives you an extreme advantage if they do come), and prevents all kinds of planar incursions and teleports. Abilities that are commonplace at tier 3+.

It also can help you do things like, say, actually keep high level prisoners. Or block off areas in a dungeon. All kinds of stuff. It’s a ritual. You can spam it!

Forbiddance is one of the better spells around at its job. Now, maybe your campaign doesn't have that job. It's entirely possible you'd be in a game where you don't value Persuasion because your DM doesn't go in for the social pillar, or don't value stealth because your teammates would always ruin it, etc etc. But that doesn't mean those abilities are bad. They have a job, they're good at that job, and in campaigns where that part of play features it's an important job.



I can't find many lower level spells that hand out elemental defenses. From what I can find you have Absorb Elements, which the Druid has but only lasts a single round and requires your Reaction, Protection from Energy, which lasts an hour but takes Concentration and only protects against an single energy type, Fire Shield, which only grants Resistance to Fire or Cold, Fizban's Platinum Shield, which is a superior Primordial Ward but is only available to Wizards and Sorcerers, Investiture of Flame/Ice, which grant immunity to Fire or Cold and resistant to Fire or Cold, and Invulnerability, which is a 9th level Wizard spell.

Primordial Ward and Fizban's Platinum Shield are the only two spells I can find that give you Resistance to more than two elemental damage types at once. Absorb Elements can give you multiple Elemental resistances, but its only one at a time, and only lasts for a single round. Meanwhile Invulnerability is just better than all of them cause, you know, Wizards gotta have the best spells. Not only that, but Primordial Ward can give you Immunity to one of the elements on the list when you're hit by it. Doesn't take a reaction or anything, you just choose to be immune to that damage type until the end of your next turn, including against the damage that let you trigger the immunity. Meaning if you take a boat load of elemental damage...you can choose to take none of that damage instead.

Now, if its the fact that it only lasts a minute, is Concentration, and takes your action to cast...then that applies to pretty much every single concentration spell in the game right there. I don't see how those are such negatives that it makes Primordial Ward bad at its job. In fact, I actually think the fact that its an Action to cast while only being a Druid spell is a boon. This is a spell you can cast near the start of combat, on the first or second round, which tends to be exactly when your Druid sublcass abilities come into play.

It’s because (IMHO) it’s not worth its action/slot economy in more scenarios than not. Many other Concentration spells do not share that distinction.

And stuff like Fire Shield and Absorb Elements don’t eat Concentration. And Fire Shield lasts 10x as long (enough for multiple combats in a dungeoneering scenario), and also protects against melee attacks (regardless of damage type).

If you're actually using an in-combat action on Primordial Ward (as your post suggests), you're sacrificing an Action that could have been spent on a high level spell cast to suppress the enemy and/or protect the party. Instead you protected one character who's already fairly resilient against personally-directed elemental attacks of those types (because of Absorb Elements). And this can be circumvented -- the enemy could just attack one of your allies. Or they could switch to attacking you with an attack of an element Primordial Ward doesn't guard against (which most enemies have), and possibly break your Concentration in the process, then go right back to the elemental part of their attack routine.

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the "protects against multiple elements at a time" bit, but it's still just a few elements on something you need to pre-cast: you still basically have to know what sort of element your foe uses ahead of time in order to justify casting it (or even preparing it).

[Chaos Jackal]

Flesh to stone is just horrendous, there's no sugarcoating it. You're burning a 6th-level slot to get an effect similar to what earthen grasp or entangle can give you, except the former deals damage, the latter is an area effect that also causes difficult terrain and has better range and they're 2nd- and 1st-level respectively. Flesh to stone even takes concentration. Sure, it's slightly harder to break, but that's not worth it for an otherwise weaker effect to be 4-5 levels higher. And the petrification effect will almost never come into play. Seriously, it's one of the worst spells in the game. It'd be weak if it was two levels lower. As it stands, it's a waste. If you want that kind of effect as a druid... just use entangle.

And something like primordial ward is largely overkill. Unless you expect to be eating multiple types of elemental damage, multiple times every turn, there's just no reason to burn such a high level slot, an action and your concentration for its sake. It only lasts a minute too, limiting its precasting potential. For the majority of situations where you'll be facing elemental damage it's better to use your action and concentration on something that actually affects the battlefield and fall back to absorb elements if needed.

[Snails]

While we do like tidal wave, large swarms of mooks is one place wher Ice Storm does OK, in terms of slowing them down and getting rid of a few of them. Quantity has a quality all its own, and Ice Storm mitigates that somewhat.

If Ice Storm is the best damaging AoE spell you have, it is a reasonable choice in certain situations, and the clever players are the ones who can achieve "good enough" with the tools they have on hand.

As a general matter, Ice Storm is very mediocre at two things. A 4th level slot that is less impressive in terms of damage than what most casters can accomplish with a 3rd level slot. And as an area control spell, its short duration limits its utility. (To be fair, at least it does not require Concentration -- this flexibility might be welcome to some casters.)

Typically speaking, any place you would put an Ice Storm, I would probably rather see a Fireball or Web or Fog or Sleet Storm or Hunger of Hadar or Slow or Hypnotic Pattern put there instead -- all lower level spell slot options. The really clever players are the ones who achieve "good enough" with low level spell slots, and drop the hammer with a high level spell slot at the right time and right place.

[LudicSavant]

Flesh to stone is just horrendous, there's no sugarcoating it. You're burning a 6th-level slot to get an effect similar to what earthen grasp or entangle can give you, except the former deals damage, the latter is an area effect that also causes difficult terrain and has better range and they're 2nd- and 1st-level respectively. Flesh to stone even takes concentration. Sure, it's slightly harder to break, but that's not worth it for an otherwise weaker effect to be 4-5 levels higher. And the petrification effect will almost never come into play. Seriously, it's one of the worst spells in the game. It'd be weak if it was two levels lower. As it stands, it's a waste. If you want that kind of effect as a druid... just use entangle.

And something like primordial ward is largely overkill. Unless you expect to be eating multiple types of elemental damage, multiple times every turn, there's just no reason to burn such a high level slot, an action and your concentration for its sake. It only lasts a minute too, limiting its precasting potential. For the majority of situations where you'll be facing elemental damage it's better to use your action and concentration on something that actually affects the battlefield and fall back to absorb elements if needed.

Agreed.


I also find it handy for burning through Legendary saves.

May I ask again why you feel that way? Flesh to Stone is straight up one of the worst spells for burning Legendary saves.

[sithlordnergal]

Agreed.



May I ask again why you feel that way? Flesh to Stone is straight up one of the worst spells for burning Legendary saves.

I'll correct myself, I find it good for Druids when it comes to burning through Legendary saves. Its a spell that most DMs won't use a Legendary Save on immediately, meaning you usually get a few rounds of its Restrained condition instead of the DM just using a Legendary Save immediately like they do with Hold Monster or Disintegrate, and by the time they do go to use the Legendary Save they're generally on their last one, and if they don't use it the fight will end. Now, I will admit that I prefer Contagion over Flesh to Stone, but Contagion's issue is that it gives the Poisoned Condition, and if something is immune to being Poisoned then its immune to Contagion...and a loooot of creatures are immune to Contagion.

Though that could just be caused by how my DMs run things.

[noob]

There are so many points to argue against in this summary.

Take an extra hour after your long rest cuz it'd be super handy? I'm sorry, I thought your character was a person, with goals and motivations and responsibilities and on and on. I bet an extra hour of sleep would be great for you, too, but I doubt you're ignoring your alarm clock and going to work an hour later than scheduled just because it would be handy!

Carry a parasol? Are you serious? No DM worth their salt is letting anyone get away with that nonsense! :smalltongue:

Suffice to say, it is absolutely not shocking at all that so many people critique 5e as "a video game" instead of a ttrpg, and this is an outstanding example of why; treating everything like a formulaic code to be properly input for optimal results instead of like characters living and struggling naturally through their world. :smallsigh:

If by preparing one more hour the morning soldiers could be less likely to die on the battlefield maybe they would do it often.(hence why they do make sure to check their weapons and clean them often)
Adventurers are self employed soldiers, they will take one more hour of rest if it makes them more likely to survive.
Only videogame characters or foolish people could think "I am going in the fight less prepared than I could be because the more time I spend preparing the less loot per hour I get" and skip the 1 hour of preparation.

Now getting attacked during rest is another problem and if someone was going to attack you in a 9 hour rest and preparation period they would do it while you are sleeping and completely unable to retaliate and not in the morning while you are awake and preparing.

[sithlordnergal]

Uhm, yes it is? It’s happened to me several times just in recent memory.

Like, it’s a thing that enemies are capable of, and it’s extremely effective. Some DMs intentionally avoid it because they think it's too effective.

But that sort of stuff is totally fair game in the kind of campaigns where optimization matters.

Especially if you’re playing no holds barred “combat as war” you need to *earn* your rests. Which is why there’s a whole category of effects for that.

Forbiddance bars 5 common categories of creatures from your campsite (or at least gives you an extreme advantage if they do come), and prevents all kinds of planar incursions and teleports. Abilities that are commonplace at tier 3+.

It also can help you do things like, say, actually keep high level prisoners. Or block off areas in a dungeon. All kinds of stuff. It’s a ritual. You can spam it!

Forbiddance is one of the better spells around at its job. Now, maybe your campaign doesn't have that job. It's entirely possible you'd be in a game where you don't value Persuasion because your DM doesn't go in for the social pillar, or don't value stealth because your teammates would always ruin it, etc etc. But that doesn't mean those abilities are bad. They have a job, they're good at that job, and in campaigns where that part of play features it's an important job.


I'm surprised, I've never met a DM in my entire DnD career that uses Scry 'n' Die tactics on players. Heck, when an ambush occurs, usually no form of spell will prevent it, since most DMs, myself included, handwave how the ambushers get there. I will admit I have set up plenty of ambushes, but I've never really thought about how they got there outside of using mundane forms of travel. Same with planar incursions and teleports, my experience has been "Not a common thing, and when the few times it happens, it'll happen no matter what you do." Hence why I think you're massively over-valuing the anti-teleport, but if your DM does bring that sort of thing up, then it would be useful.

Now, I do admit I had not thought of casting it to block off dungeon areas, that's a huge boon I had never considered before. I just saw it as a "You cast it on your base for 30 days, can't really be used elsewhere" and you have made me realize my error.



It’s because (IMHO) it’s not worth its action/slot economy in more scenarios than not. Many other Concentration spells do not share that distinction.

And stuff like Fire Shield and Absorb Elements don’t eat Concentration. And Fire Shield lasts 10x as long (enough for multiple combats in a dungeoneering scenario), and also protects against melee attacks (regardless of damage type).

If you're actually using an in-combat action on Primordial Ward (as your post suggests), you're sacrificing an Action that could have been spent on a high level spell cast to suppress the enemy and/or protect the party. Instead you protected one character who's already fairly resilient against personally-directed elemental attacks of those types (because of Absorb Elements). And this can be circumvented -- the enemy could just attack one of your allies. Or they could switch to attacking you with an attack of an element Primordial Ward doesn't guard against (which most enemies have), and possibly break your Concentration in the process, then go right back to the elemental part of their attack routine.

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the "protects against multiple elements at a time" bit, but it's still just a few elements on something you need to pre-cast: you still basically have to know what sort of element your foe uses ahead of time in order to justify casting it (or even preparing it).

I disagree that its not worth the action/slot, being able to give yourself additional protection against just as many damage types as Absorb Elements while only using a single spell slot instead of having to use multiple is something that's extremely valuable. Absorb Elements is great, don't get me wrong, but its like Shield, you're going to eat through a ton of spell slots if you rely on it for multi-energy protection. Far better to just use the one slot on Primordial Ward and gain the same protections Absorb Elements give you.

As for Fire Shield, it does last 10 minutes and is non-concentration, however 10 minutes isn't long enough to run into multiple encounters. Its only ever good for a single encounter, and only protects against a single element at a time. The only two boons it has are being non-concentration and dealing damage to stuff that hits you. That's it, nothing more.

As for it being a Self only spell, you're right that it doesn't protect the rest of the party, but I also don't see that as an issue. If an enemy is attacking another party member instead of me because of Primordial Ward, I see that as a bonus. As long as I can eventually pull aggro to myself, it evens out. And if not, then hey, that means the DM is ignoring me, and letting me do whatever I like, which is a huge boon.

[sithlordnergal]

If by preparing one more hour the morning soldiers could be less likely to die on the battlefield maybe they would do it often.(hence why they do make sure to check their weapons and clean them often)
Adventurers are self employed soldiers, they will take one more hour of rest if it makes them more likely to survive.
Only videogame characters or foolish people could think "I am going in the fight less prepared than I could be because the more time I spend preparing the less loot per hour I get" and skip the 1 hour of preparation.

Now getting attacked during rest is another problem and if someone was going to attack you in a 9 hour rest and preparation period they would do it while you are sleeping and completely unable to retaliate and not in the morning while you are awake and preparing.

I mean, doesn't matter how much sense it makes, narrative or otherwise. I can't name a single DM I know of that would allow it. We'd all simply say "You're metagaming and attempting to abuse rest mechanics, please don't, you can't do it". No different than if a Coffeelock tried to pull a "I take 8 Short Rests instead of 1 Long Rest".

[LudicSavant]

I'll correct myself, I find it good for Druids when it comes to burning through Legendary saves. Its a spell that most DMs won't use a Legendary Save on immediately, meaning you usually get a few rounds of its Restrained condition instead of the DM just using a Legendary Save immediately like they do with Hold Monster or Disintegrate, and by the time they do go to use the Legendary Save they're generally on their last one, and if they don't use it the fight will end. Now, I will admit that I prefer Contagion over Flesh to Stone, but Contagion's issue is that it gives the Poisoned Condition, and if something is immune to being Poisoned then its immune to Contagion...and a loooot of creatures are immune to Contagion.

Though that could just be caused by how my DMs run things.

Sounds like the monster is jobbing to me. Wholly negating a 6th level slot with an LR is good value... and not for Team PCs. So the monster can just use the LR immediately to completely negate your high level slot rather than waiting. And unlike things that are actually efficient for burning LRs, it'll gain no effect beyond that.

Flesh to Stone is borderline Witch Bolt tier.

[sambojin]

@OP It depends on the dungeon crawl. Or whether there was literally any other outside interactivity. And the DM.

"Did you know, Druids have several faiths and circles and outlooks, yet there are circles within circles, and they even have a language to communicate with each other, to show these ideas and ideals to each other?"

"EVERY F'ing town, HAS TO HAVE a Thieves Guild!"

Etc etc.

Clerics get a built-in backstory, and even a lvl3-5 Cleric is somewhat well regarded (assuming they're not of the god of F*-you,U-gonna-die, so are at least neutral/good) due to their ability to heal and help and at least attempt to bring their God's blessings upon some people. Even if it was just due to helping that cleric. People like Gods being happy, especially when they literally have a chosen of theirs in front of them. It stops many bad things happening.

It's actually a very-poor bit of world-building by most DMs, that they don't consider that, and then also go all-or-nothing with Druids being good or evil or barely existing or over-arching. Yet Thieves Guilds/networks are everywhere. And Clerics only get respect at their own temple, though they would probably even get respect from other God's Clerics, if only for what they do, if not for who they worship. Meh

(PS, they're also amazeballs on the table-top with Tasha's stuff by lvl6. It's 2/Sr divinity, every Cleric can now recover spell slots 1/lr off one of them. Spell slot recovery is amazing. So, yep. They're usefully good. Not wizard or druid broken, but yeah, they're averagely good with a side-serve of sustainable combat)

((Oh, and ^^^, druids don't usually burn through legendary saves, unless they want to help to do so. They cause multiple ability checks through summons, with a hold action, then act, if they want. Ok, they do burn legendaries, but mostly because they've got so many damned spell slots leftover due to being able to do this (by the time that sort of enemy should even come up), that I guess they could just throw spells, knowing that if it didn't work, they could just throw ability checks instead next round at them, again.
I mean, TK'ing an enemy repeatedly through a fire-wall? Doable, in the right party, just not that useful with that sort of enemy. But being semi-stat and spell-list independent, does let you build for anything))

[diplomancer]

I mean, doesn't matter how much sense it makes, narrative or otherwise. I can't name a single DM I know of that would allow it. We'd all simply say "You're metagaming and attempting to abuse rest mechanics, please don't, you can't do it". No different than if a Coffeelock tried to pull a "I take 8 Short Rests instead of 1 Long Rest".

It is the very opposite of metagaming; NOT doing it, thus diminishing the character's chances of survival, to balance the adventuring day may be noble, but THAT'S metagaming. lf the DM insists that they don't do it, it is, in fact, the DM that would be metagaming. He may be doing it for perfectly good reasons about balancing the adventuring day, but that is precisely a metagaming construct. The characters are doing exactly what real-life people would do in similar circumstances. And yes, this even applies to the Coffeelock. One could argue that building towards a Coffeelock is in itself metagaming (I'd agree), but not taking advantage of its capabilities (and the "building" argument does not hold with most of those cases, which are about single class capabilities)..

For the particular case of the Twilight Cleric, if I were DM'ing and wanted to cut that out, I'd have the deity communicating to the Cleric that he's not happy at being channelled every morning for such reasons.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Ice Storm is the best damaging AoE spell you have, It not the damage only, though, it's also slowing down the swarm. It's both features.

As a general matter, Ice Storm is very mediocre at two things. A 4th level slot that is less impressive in terms of damage than what most casters can accomplish with a 3rd level slot. And as an area control spell, its short duration limits its utility. (To be fair, at least it does not require Concentration -- this flexibility might be welcome to some casters.)
Yes, the lack of Conc is very much appreciated. But in general, I do not disagree with your point. And I much prefer Slow as a debuff.

[strangebloke]

To underline the points others have made about flesh to stone, if it was on the cleric list and was a 2nd or 3rd level spell instead of 6th, I wouldn't prepare it. Nearly every guide I can find agrees that this spell is terrible and should never be used.

Druids have advantages over clerics. Flesh to Stone emphatically isn't one of them. Even if it was a second level spell, it would compare unfavorably with spells like web. At 6th, its just a bad joke, worse even than true strike.

[Chaos Jackal]

I'll correct myself, I find it good for Druids when it comes to burning through Legendary saves. Its a spell that most DMs won't use a Legendary Save on immediately, meaning you usually get a few rounds of its Restrained condition instead of the DM just using a Legendary Save immediately like they do with Hold Monster or Disintegrate, and by the time they do go to use the Legendary Save they're generally on their last one, and if they don't use it the fight will end. Now, I will admit that I prefer Contagion over Flesh to Stone, but Contagion's issue is that it gives the Poisoned Condition, and if something is immune to being Poisoned then its immune to Contagion...and a loooot of creatures are immune to Contagion.

Though that could just be caused by how my DMs run things.

It's not even about how your DM runs things.

Flesh to stone in combat is so bad that this is a lose-lose situation for the caster, whether the DM metagames the initial cast or not. If the first save is failed and then LR'd, you just spent a 6th-level slot doing nothing (so both a high-level spell and making the wrong choice of using a spell that does nothing on a save against an enemy with LR). If the save is ignored, possibly because the enemy doesn't care too much about getting restrained, you now have your concentration tied to just restraining just one target, which really isn't a particularly efficient use of concentration unless you're facing very few enemies. And at best, they still have at least a turn's grace before needing to worry about burning LR for you (since the second failed save does nothing). Probably more, because expecting three failed Con saves in a row is quite a stretch.

The spell just sucks. Irrelevant of how well the DM plays, whether the enemy knows what hit them, if the DM metagames or if they're doing the party favors. It is unsalvageable.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I'm surprised, I've never met a DM in my entire DnD career that uses Scry 'n' Die tactics on players. Heck, when an ambush occurs, usually no form of spell will prevent it, since most DMs, myself included, handwave how the ambushers get there.

A Tucker’s Kobolds, Killer DM, style of game has the inverse premise: the PCs can foil an ambush. Indeed, the PCs might have to foil the ambush, because this style of game strives to model the idea that those caught unawares by an ambush, often die.

(and Once one hits the high tiers, Death really is not your biggest worry.
You are lucky if Grazzt just wants to kill you.)

For these style of games, the mitigation of potential poor outcomes is crucial.

Ludic Savant, has previously, made an excellent point about one potential aspect to keep in mind regarding D&D Play Experience. People that have played D&D for a long time, often have stable play groups, and will tend to run the style of games that appeal to them.

“Everybody runs it this way”…I think in practice really means:
“Everybody, I know, runs it this way”.

Of course exposure to other’s perspectives is what, I find enjoyable about a D&D message board.



I disagree that its not worth the action/slot, being able to give yourself additional protection against just as many damage types as Absorb Elements while only using a single spell slot instead of having to use multiple is something that's extremely valuable. Absorb Elements is great, don't get me wrong, but its like Shield, you're going to eat through a ton of spell slots if you rely on it for multi-energy protection. Far better to just use the one slot on Primordial Ward and gain the same protections Absorb Elements give you.

I find this a curious assessment. Previously, sithlordnergal, it seemed that you espoused a position that potentiality/potential use of features did not weigh highly in your evaluations.

Yet it seems, like you value Primordial Ward, precisely because of the potential to block against multiple types of elemental energies simultaneously.

Why is this type of potential, noteworthy for you, but not other types of potential?

How often are you encountering, multiple Elemental effects, but only multiple Elemental effects?

Fire and Radiant damage is a common pairing for multi-energy effects…Primordal Ward is not helping more than an Absorb Elements spell in that situation.

[LudicSavant]

10 minutes isn't long enough to run into multiple encounters. Its only ever good for a single encounter

On the contrary, it's outright commonplace to be able to trigger multiple encounters within 10 minutes in traditional dungeons. Seriously, go look at some modules, that situation you say will never ever happen? It's abundant.

You seem to be dismissing an awful lot of things as though it never ever happens (and even seem to dismiss the concept of disaster preparation in general, raised by Thunderous Mojo). Like, yeah, maybe hypothetically you'll find yourself in a game you'll never face mind controllers or psychic damage (though those things are common in the rules), but that doesn't mean Mind Blank is a bad spell. It's an amazing spell at its job.

Unlike, say, Flesh to Stone, which just isn't very good at the job you want it to do.

[Zuras]

I think some players find clerics underwhelming because they’re heavier on support and buffing. It can be very powerful, but it’s not very flashy.

I’ve found clerics very powerful in play, but the most effective in game effects I’ve ever had were:

Giving the Barbarian a +1 on their INT save with Bless (they made their Mind Blast save exactly) and prevented a TPK.

Bringing everybody in the party back up with a single Mass Healing Word after they flubbed rolls against multiple Banshee wails (the wizard was somehow the only one still standing and revived me with a healing potion). Again, prevented a TPK.

Nullify a Lich’s Power Word Kill with a Death Ward.

Breaking the Vampires charm on the Sharpshooter Fighter so they could turn the vamp into a pincushion.

All of these effects were very powerful, but also focused the spotlight on other PCs. In particular letting the Swashbuckler taunt the lich into a PWK was a major moment for that player.

I’m not going to argue that Clerics have the best full caster spell list, but in my experience they only feel lackluster in parties where everyone else is a full caster and letting your opponents into melee range means there was a tactical breakdown somewhere.

[KorvinStarmast]

All of these effects were very powerful, but also focused the spotlight on other PCs. And that's why I like clerics. :smallsmile: I get a lot of enjoyment out of making the other party members more effective. Teamwork, team win, that's my usual mental approach when I play a cleric, bard, or warlock. (With a bit of damage here and there from me since we all have to contribute).

[animorte]

And that's why I like clerics. :smallsmile: I get a lot of enjoyment out of making the other party members more effective. Teamwork, team win, that's my usual mental approach when I play a cleric, bard, or warlock. (With a bit of damage here and there from me since we all have to contribute).

These are my thoughts exactly.

[Zuras]

And that's why I like clerics. :smallsmile: I get a lot of enjoyment out of making the other party members more effective. Teamwork, team win, that's my usual mental approach when I play a cleric, bard, or warlock. (With a bit of damage here and there from me since we all have to contribute).

Yeah—my only personal gripe with clerics is that they are underwhelming in the social and exploration pillars compared to the other more supporty full caster classes. Without specific tools from their domains, they lack the exploration tools of the Druid and have much weaker social features than the Bard or Warlock.

Their class skill list also has some poor synergies. The non-proficient Wizard having a better modifier on their Religion checks than my proficient cleric always really bugged me.

[Snails]

One of the improvements in D&D that 5e brought is it is much more plausible to play skewed mixes of classes in one party. That said, if I were to play an "All Class X" party, the All Cleric party would probably be the easiest to play effectively. There is a deep underlying solidity to the class. It is pretty good at several critically important things, and that is built right into the chassis. Fold in the subclasses, and the cleric is potentially good enough at any party specialty role.

To be sure, there are other All Class X choices that would probably work without great difficulty (All Paladin, All Druid). But the thought experiment of All Cleric party, I believe, demonstrates that the class itself is not lacking in overall power or flexibility, compared to other classes.

IME most players come to the table hoping and expecting to see their PCs get in the limelight. Most players have a viewpoint of "limelight" that is a matter of personal taste (i.e. being the Face may be valued more than DPR, or vice versa), and may even vary from PC to PC for the same player. Most players have unspoken pre-conception about the minimum frequency they want to achieve the limelight. Most players are Satisficers, i.e. you meet their thresholds and they are happy enough and quite tolerant of rough edges in the game system, even if their PC is objectively weak. Or the reverse -- a PC may be objectively strong but it just does not play in a way that the player will enjoy it, and then you get the grumbling.

Put this together, and it is no mystery that some players find the Cleric class completely unappealing. It is a class that is often not glamorous in play, that is true. It is not that the class is weak. It just does not scratch certain players' D&D itch.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Put this together, and it is no mystery that some players find the Cleric class completely unappealing. It is a class that is often not glamorous in play, that is true. It is not that the class is weak. It just does not scratch certain players' D&D itch.

Eh, the limelight thing is DM dependent. But honestly, online games can show cleric shining, and some doing very little. CR is a solid example (I know, I know, but it's well known and very easy to reference). Pike has a lot of shining moments. Heck, check the Amazon show and try to argue she doesn't get limelight or come off as amazing. But, my examples would be Campaign 2. Campaign 2 had 2 clerics. Jester and Cadeuceus. Cad actually did seem to be the not shining Cleric. He had amazing moments but by nature he was played to be calmer and quieter and so I think might be a good example of why people don't normally want to play Clerics.

But I don't see how you can look at Jester and not see a fun, engaging and limelight worthy (sometimes limelight stealing) character. The invasion of a temple of a rival god. The modify Memory trick. There's a lot there to be an example of cleric play. If you want to be front stage instead of support, play trickery, light, forge, etc, avoid Life or Grave.

[animorte]

I think some people are also forgetting that backgrounds and race selection can provide a lot of whatever your Cleric may lack, but some folks are too busy powergaming or min maxing to try and stretch their PC. Others may prefer to try and cover all bases so they don’t have to rely on anybody else.

A Cleric has an excellent foundation for keeping your entire party alive. Then use subclasses and role playing to give it a different life. As a comparison I think the Monks have an excellent foundation for keeping themselves alive.

Also, I really appreciate the CR inclusion of the the wildly different Clerics of each campaign (Pike, Jester, and let’s not forget Fresh Cut Grass).
- On that note, CMCC has a video series attempting to optimize each of the CR characters.

[sambojin]

As a Druid main, I would give several dingoes worth of babies to have a bonus action Spiritual Weapon, or Spirit Guardians that carries on in wildshape, or Revivify, or Bless, or even Commune at lvl9... I could just about make a build based on those spells.

Oh.....

Well, good for you ma'am. At least you've got armour you can wear, and vaguely applicable short-rest resources by lvl6. You're really doing the full-caster broken-af tradition proud. You go you godly thing!

(This is meant to not be taken seriously. Clerics are pretty amazeballs these days, and weren't ever weak beforehand)