I miss opposition schools and clerical spheres. Wouldn't it be nice to get them back?

[Schwann145]

Coming from the conversation in the Rime's Binding Ice thread, the talk of breaking up the Wizard got me nostalgic.

Wizards should not have access to just all the spells, just because they're a Wizard. Specializing in a School of Magic should come with consequences, the big one being your focus will be very heavily on the theme of your chosen School first and foremost, right?
Specialized spell lists, and all that. Barred opposition schools. Etc and so on.

Alternatively, the "spells known" Sorcerer should not be limited this way, instead having access to whatever arcane spells they want to learn; their limitation comes in the form of their lack of flexibility. You only get to know so many spells, but they can be from any arcane list. Wizard gets to change their spells regularly, but from thematically limited lists.

And, in the same vein, I'm missing the old Clerical Spheres that were replaced by Domains. Frankly, I don't see why they can't coexist. Clerics/Priests should have lists tailored to what and/or whom they worship. The generic divine list is incredibly out of place for so many deities, being stuffed to the brim with restorative and defensive magics, and being very light on offensive, control, and thematically appropriate options.
Domains help a little bit, but having "full access" to specific Spheres of spells (can learn all the way up to 9th level) and having only "limited access" to less-appropriately specific Spheres of spells (can learn only up to 3rd level) would be just wonderful, IMO.

Aaand it's a pipe dream, I know; WotC is absolutely not going back to anything like the above.
But I think it'd sure be nice.

[KorvinStarmast]

Re: I miss opposition schools and clerical spheres. Wouldn't it be nice to get them back? No. Opposition Schools cuts down on customizability in terms of what players do and the choices that they make. Bad idea. (And I did not care for it in AD&D 2e either).

Clerical Spheres. Same problem, and some people are already kvetching about Cleric spells being not very good. (See the thread by sithlordnergal that was started today as but one example (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646199-What-am-I-missing-with-Clerics-here)).

[Dr.Samurai]

Definitely heading in the opposite direction of this. Backgrounds increase your spell versatility, races add spells to your spells known, and the new UA has floating spells known.

"Casters should have everything available to them" is the mantra here, not "some of your choices should be meaningful".

[Greywander]

I was thinking about this after the Rime's Binding Ice thread, too, but I came to a bit of a different conclusion.

Since people were talking about wizards getting All The Spells, what I was thinking was, what if you severely cut down the wizard spell list, say, to a half or third its current size, and then at 2nd level wizards choose one school to specialize in, which adds all the spells of that school to their spell list? Maybe at a higher level they'd choose a second school to specialize in. (This would be independent of your subclass, since only PHB subclasses are linked to specific schools.)

The core wizard list would then encompass the basic spells every wizard should have, while your specialization would have a profound impact on how your particular wizard plays. This could even result in some weird builds that aren't normally possible, such as necromancy specialists getting access to resurrection spells, or evocation specialists getting Cure Wounds.

The only problem here is trimming down the base wizard spell list. It's easy to say "all spells of X school are added to your list", because that's a basic rule that can be applied pretty easily. But pruning the wizard spell list is something that would have to be done manually, and I'm sure there'd be a lot of controversy over some spells. For example, should Fireball stay on the core list, or should it just be for Evokers?

[Kane0]

Specializing in a School of Magic should come with consequences, the big one being your focus will be very heavily on the theme of your chosen School first and foremost, right?
Specialized spell lists, and all that. Barred opposition schools. Etc and so on.

And, in the same vein, I'm missing the old Clerical Spheres that were replaced by Domains. Frankly, I don't see why they can't coexist. Clerics/Priests should have lists tailored to what and/or whom they worship. The generic divine list is incredibly out of place for so many deities, being stuffed to the brim with restorative and defensive magics, and being very light on offensive, control, and thematically appropriate options.

I prefer the current method afforded to basically all other casters at this point, a somewhat restricted base list that is expanded by subclass. This would necessitate removing those subclass spells from the base list, so two stones with one bird.

For clerics, you could just swap around the cleric base list with whatever other class suited better and leave the domain bonus spells as-is to more closely represent the deity. If you take an axe to the wizard list as above it is no longer the default best list.



Wizards should not have access to just all the spells, just because they're a Wizard.

Aaand it's a pipe dream, I know; WotC is absolutely not going back to anything like the above.
But I think it'd sure be nice.
I call and raise: Casters should not have access to all magic, just because they're casters.

And yeah, it's pretty much not going to happen officially. But in my dreams there would be more distinction between magical classes in how they obtain and use magic than one overarching spellcasting system that doesn't really do any of them justice.

[Composer99]

I would have to say no, not with the way spells are organised in D&D as is.
- For players who will optimise, it wouldn't make a difference except to force them to make a few harder choices to get the best spells
- For players who don't optimise, it just takes away potential cool toys

If you had spell organisation (and balance!) closer to something like Spheres of Power or Shadow of the Demon Lord, then expecting tighter focus among spellcasting classes' access to spells would be more reasonable. But I think those systems tie class identity and spell selection more strongly together compared to 5e.

[Leon]

No, if you want that stuff go play the Editions that had that stuff, it was fine for its time but 5e+ is not that time.

[strangebloke]

I prefer the current method afforded to basically all other casters at this point, a somewhat restricted base list that is expanded by subclass. This would necessitate removing those subclass spells from the base list, so two stones with one bird.

For clerics, you could just swap around the cleric base list with whatever other class suited better and leave the domain bonus spells as-is to more closely represent the deity. If you take an axe to the wizard list as above it is no longer the default best list.

Agreed. Not all schools are created equal, and thus opposition schools creates clear winners and losers. For example, say evocation opposes abjuration. Well, that sounds good, but suddenly you're missing out of mage armor, shield, absorb elements, counterspell... nobody would really want to take that. The punishment outweighs any theoretical upside.

[AvvyR]

Cutting down player options is rarely a good change. If you want to roleplay a character that specializes in one school, or doesn't take spells from one school, you can just do that with no need for mechanics.

My wizard in my last campaign that just ended didn't take the vast majority of the "best" wizard spells available to them, because they weren't on theme for the vibe of the character.

[Sigreid]

No, I have hated that line of thought every time it's been tried in D&D. Don't know why everyone is always trying to narrow down my wizard. :smallannoyed:

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm all for throwing a few more restrictions onto characters. But honestly at this point I'd rather do it by banning the Wizard and beefing up Ritual Casting (which I'm considering just making something all PCs can do if they have a Ritual Book). If other groups want a class that does everything then I suppose they can be allowed that.

I just have a different view to WotC on what magic should be like. That's fine, but it does mean that the uber-vetsatile Wizard doesn't have a place in my world.

[AdAstra]

While I support more specialization being required in spellcasters, I would argue that Wizard is actually among the least suited classes for it (along with Bards to a lesser extent). Wizards always came across to me as the class most thematically suited towards being a magical dilettante rather than someone who really focuses down on one specialty, and that should be supported, if not necessarily the only way to play. To me the Wizard fantasy is using a variety of individually specialized and not very strong tools in creative ways to overcome challenges through cunning and smarts, rather than using your Magic Hammer to turn everything into a nail. Other classes seem more suited towards funneling you down a particular specialty, other than Bards, but they're somewhat limited by the thematics of the class in a way that Wizards largely aren't.

So while I don't like wizards as they exist in DnD now, the reason differs. I think Wizards should be just as versatile as they are now, they should just be weaker. The ceiling of spell power needs to go down, and versatility should be something you need to actually use, rather than just a way to give Wizards more ways to nuke the battlefield.

Plus, as is, of the prepared casters, Wizards are arguably the most specialized already, as without scrolls and other people's spellbooks to scribe, they have to whittle their spell list down to a much smaller list of what's actually in their spellbook, and they don't have many ways to increase their Spells Prepared the way that Clerics and Druids do. While those extra spells are fixed and rarely the greatest list ever, they give valuable breathing room to prepare spells you otherwise wouldn't.

[Waazraath]

Yes hell yes. Though to be fair, I think 5e captures 'specialist' clerics pretty decently with its subclasses. Though I would prefer a system more like the clerical spheres, I'm happy with the current incarnation of clerics as well. While for wizards, mandatory opposition schools is a much needed improvement for failed class design (as argued extensively in this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646200-Wizard-Thematics-are-Bad )


Definitely heading in the opposite direction of this. Backgrounds increase your spell versatility, races add spells to your spells known, and the new UA has floating spells known.

"Casters should have everything available to them" is the mantra here, not "some of your choices should be meaningful".

This one is spot on. Meaningful choices is exactly what is lacking, and unfortunately 5e is heading the other direction for years, with dragonmarked races and ravnica backgrounds and feats that give extra spells. Funny enough, the options "to get extra spells known" (also from other lists) for a high cost would be very relevant in a design where casters were much more limited in spells known. In the current game, it's just "my druid can do almost every type thing oh and now he can counterspell as well".

[Warder]

For sure. Everything for everyone is not the direction I ever wanted D&D to go - restrictions, limitations and drawbacks are interesting additions to gameplay that I miss seeing more of. I especially enjoyed the sometimes very strict prestige class requirements, but we'll never see anything like those again.

[Angelalex242]

Time marches on.

If Paladins don't even need ethics anymore, I can't see much use to denying casters spells.

[Waazraath]

Time marches on.

If Paladins don't even need ethics anymore, I can't see much use to denying casters spells.

Nobody that I've seen wants to deny caster spells (and tbh I think it's arguable that 'paladins don't need ethics anymore' in 5e given what oaths are, but nvm cause derail from main point). The only thing that I see is people wanting casters to have thematics and meaningful choices. "Everybody has everthing" ultimately leads to everybody being really alike. And that's before going into the bookkeeping, the keeping track of 100's of pages of spells and the damage done to creativity if everybody has a simple solution by pushing a (spell) button.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes hell yes. Though to be fair, I think 5e captures 'specialist' clerics pretty decently with its subclasses. Though I would prefer a system more like the clerical spheres, I'm happy with the current incarnation of clerics as well.

Pretty much agreed. While the Cleric is by no means perfect I think the Domains do an amazing job focusing the class's playstyle and stopping the 'every member feels alike' option that plagues the Wizard. Although that's also because it feels like the subclasses are allowed to have features with more bite, while Wizards have so much of their budget tied up in their massive spell list.

I also don't see Sorcerer Origins defining their playstyle as a bad thing. While there's some I'd love to see (where are my Inferno, Sea, and Stone Sorcerers?), it really does feel like the choice matters, and while I complain about it the limited number of spells known does cause Sorcerers to vary more in what they can do (even if I'm adding in Origin Spells in my games).

Yes some Wizard traditions do have playstyle defining features, but they tend to come online halfway into a standard campaign. Meanwhile Clerics and Sorcerers are getting signature abilities from level 1, and most other classes get theirs at level 3. Wizards are the anti-Ranger, so much has been poured into their core that the bits meant to add flavour mostly don't.

[Sorinth]

I'd be fine with limiting wizard spell schools, though I don't think the opposition schools should be forced like in previous editions, let the character pick the schools they want to focus on and the ones they don't. I think a good solution would actually be to just limit the spell levels based on specialization, so for example an Evoker gets Fireball at 5th level as normal, but other wizards might not get access until 7 or even later. That way the specialist gets his schools big guns earlier then other wizards but doesn't get the other schools big guns until later.

Basically choose a major and then at later levels you get minors. As a rough example a 7th level wizard whose major is in Necromancy and has a minor in Evocation would be able to learn Necromancy spells up to 4th level, Evocation spells up to 3rd level, and all other schools up to 2nd level. They might get a 2nd minor around level 11, and a 3rd at maybe 15th.

But before that can be done you'd have to balance the spell schools much more, you can't have a Divination school that doesn't even have spells for certain levels, and other levels where there's only 1 or two spells and often not even very good spells.

[Dienekes]

This just seems to come back to what people want D&D to be.

Are the mechanics of D&D supposed to bring the players toward a well crafted tailored experience with its design or instead remove barriers to let the players do whatever they want.

5e in general has been steadily pushing toward the later interpretation. Which, I’ll admit is a little confusing to me as it seems a classless system does that style of play much better. While classes are by their nature limiting and creating tailored experiences. But, that’s the way things are going.

[Brookshw]

I prefer the current method afforded to basically all other casters at this point, a somewhat restricted base list that is expanded by subclass. This would necessitate removing those subclass spells from the base list, so two stones with one bird.


I'd be perfectly fine with this.

[Kane0]

I'd be perfectly fine with this.

Especially considering the disparity between spell schools, and some wizard subclasses dont focus on schools as such

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Why shouldn't they have access?

Also, are we just making the PHB wizards weaker than the other 3/5? Or are we picking spells to become exclusive? If so which ones?

In general 5e has aimed at not having penalties for your choices and I think that's a nice change. Much like the idea that Elves aren't naturally frail anymore wizards are no longer unable to learn Shield because they studied Emchantment.

[follacchioso]

Opposition Schools create a steep entry curve for new players.

Which class was your first character in D&D? I bet the answer for many is Wizard.

Yet, for a new player, there are many things to learn, from the basics of the game to all the rest. Having to choose a School at the beginning makes it much more difficult, as you need to get familiarized with the full list of spells to make a decision. It's just a lot of time taken away from actually playing the game, and an entry barrier for many people.

Moreover, having specialized schools means that you can only have a limited number of wizard subclasses. War mages, Bladesingers, Scribes, and the lot could not exists, or they would require a substantial work of rebalance to integrate them.

[Kane0]

Which class was your first character in D&D? I bet the answer for many is Wizard.

Moreover, having specialized schools means that you can only have a limited number of wizard subclasses. War mages, Bladesingers, Scribes, and the lot could not exists, or they would require a substantial work of rebalance to integrate them.

Fighter, and specialization can take more forms than just spell schools (which exist pretty much purely for wizards anyways and could be cut without much fuss).

[Waazraath]

Opposition Schools create a steep entry curve for new players.

Which class was your first character in D&D? I bet the answer for many is Wizard.

Yet, for a new player, there are many things to learn, from the basics of the game to all the rest. Having to choose a School at the beginning makes it much more difficult, as you need to get familiarized with the full list of spells to make a decision. It's just a lot of time taken away from actually playing the game, and an entry barrier for many people.

Moreover, having specialized schools means that you can only have a limited number of wizard subclasses. War mages, Bladesingers, Scribes, and the lot could not exists, or they would require a substantial work of rebalance to integrate them.

I don't follow this. My own experience is definitely different: in decades of D&D I've had 0 players who started with a wizard as a first class. And I think this is very logical, since the wizard requiers the player to read and understand dozends and dozens of extra pages with rules in an already complicated new game, and subsequently make choices from these (what spells to pick).
Fair enough that having to choose a school do ditch might require a lot of reading (though not even per se, cause a player can just choose based on flavour and deceide they don't want to throw fireballs or raise skeletons) - this is only a thing when you choose opposition schools. If there are default opposed schools, or when subclasses are already more focussed like the 3.5 beguiler, warmage etc., then a new player can just pick a theme with a resemblance to an appealing archetypes from literature/tv/computer games.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why shouldn't they have access?

Also, are we just making the PHB wizards weaker than the other 3/5? Or are we picking spells to become exclusive? If so which ones?

In general 5e has aimed at not having penalties for your choices and I think that's a nice change. Much like the idea that Elves aren't naturally frail anymore wizards are no longer unable to learn Shield because they studied Emchantment.

The general idea is to cut the core list by 60-80 spells and give Wizards subclass spells like Clerics and Sorcerers do. Considering how few they get from some schools I think it would actually make some subclasses feel better to play.


Opposition Schools create a steep entry curve for new players.

Which class was your first character in D&D? I bet the answer for many is Wizard.

Cleric then Elf. Back in the edition where you couldn't specialise or play a nonarchetypal elf because it's what my dad owned.

I really should get a physical copy of the Rules Cyclopaedia, but I've heard that the scan they use is bad.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't have any issue (and in fact support) the idea of narrowing the wizard spell list by a lot. But doing it by school is a horrible idea because the schools aren't even close to being balanced like that. I actually went down that route experimentally and it was an utter nightmare.

Personally, I'd prefer one of the following routes:
1. Nix the class and instead break the existing thematics out into new, more focused classes (or merged with other classes). Sort of the Warmage/Beguiler et al concept from 3e.
2. Cut a crap-ton of the "best" spells out and parcel them out by subclass as bonus spells.
3. Cut a large chunk of the "utility belt" spells out of the class and out of the game (as spells), converting them into ritual-like things that anyone can learn to do. This would leave the wizard class list much more focused around doing things right now.

As for clerics, I think that a few more spells could go into the Domain spells and off of the main list. No, a cleric of Pelor should not, by any reasonable interpretation, have access to animate dead. Etc. But that's a much smaller issue.

[Witty Username]

Take or leave, I liked picking prohibited schools but the restrictions feel artificial as opposed to fitting with character concepts.
I think in 3.5 it was more useful. In 5e, I don't see as much value in it.
Oh, and you should give the wizard an extra spell slot for each level like previous editions.

[8wGremlin]

Game designing more spells and lumping them in to Wizard is a pretty common and lazy option in my opinion.

I'd like to see a more radicalised system, where there is a pool of spells that are neither, Arcane or Divine, just magic.
Then each caster has a mechanism of getting those spells.

Clerics are bestowed them from their God, who dictates what they get.

Warlocks make bargains with powers for the spells that they want, and should get to pick any spell from any list. With the restriction that that only have a few spells.

Druids like wise have spells that are given to them, but they can add more spells known by helping nature spirits
Sorcerers are the source of magic, and thus can pick freely what they want
and

Wizards, they have to research any spell they encounter, whilst they have access to nearly all spells they have to find and research them, which cost time and money.

As to the half casters etc. they basically pick the method that best suits them.

My concept goes further, what Class, schools, and subclasses you have give benefits to certain types of spells, such as Druid gaining a benefit to Nature, Elemental, Animal, Plant spells.

Also things like damage dice for spells also being affected, evokers gaining +1 to damage with all spell damage dice, etc.
things like that.

So you can tailor your spells to your concept more freely, but are still beholding to specific rules about how many and how often you can cast.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Game designing more spells and lumping them in to Wizard is a pretty common and lazy option in my opinion.

I'd like to see a more radicalised system, where there is a pool of spells that are neither, Arcane or Divine, just magic.
Then each caster has a mechanism of getting those spells.


I have a (vaguely) similar long-running project to lump all the spells together by theme into a whole bunch (currently ~20 ish) different "themes". Each spell can occur on different themes.

Then classes grant access to different themes in different ways. So wizards would pick one primary theme from most of the list and then their other primary comes from their subclass--all of their "free" spells would have to come from those themes. They could still scribe any spell from the other allowed themes, but they'd have to say "I'm a Aeromancer/Witch" up front. Or whatever.


Artificer
Primary Themes: Transmuter, Communications Mage
Secondary Themes: Conjurer, Guardian, Witch
Spells Known at 1st level: Choose two cantrips and two 1st level spells from either of your primary themes.
Spells Known at 5th level and beyond: Each time you gain a new level of spells, you can pick one of the spells you learn at that level from any primary or secondary theme.

Bard
Primary themes: Illusionist, Mesmer
Secondary themes: Communications, Healer, Kineticist, Light-bringer, Spiritualist, Transmuter
Spells Known at 1st level: Choose 3 from your primary theme and one from any of your secondary themes. Your cantrips can come from any of the available themes.
Spells Known at higher levels: Choose from primary theme. Every even level (2, 4, 6, etc) you can choose from any of your secondary themes or your primary theme. You may exchange one spell for another from the same theme each time you gain a level in this class.
Magical Mimicry: (Replaces Magical Secrets, starts at 10th level and progresses identically to Magical Secrets). When you see a spell being cast of a level you have slots for, but not the highest level you can cast, you can attempt to study the harmonies invoked and learn to mimic it. As an action, make a Charisma (Performance) check against a DC of 12 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, you learn the spell and treat it as a Bard spell. You can only learn one spell this way; you can choose to sacrifice a learned spell for a different one. You can learn an additional spell at 14 and 18.
Precocious Magical Mimicry (Lore): You gain Magical Mimicry at level 6 and progress it at 10, 14, and 18.

Cleric
Primary themes: Divine Warrior, Light-bringer, Spiritualist
Bonus Theme: Healer
Secondary themes (by domain):
* Arcana: Seer, Planeswalker, Conjurer
* Death (DMG): Conjurer, Necromancer, Shadow-dweller
* Forge (XGtE): Transmuter, Geomancer, Guardian
* Grave (XGtE): Spiritualist, Purifier
* Knowledge: Seer, Infernal, Planeswalker
* Life: Guardian, Mesmer, Purifier
* Light: Illusionist, Pyromancer, Purifier
* Nature: Animalist, Conjurer, Guardian, Gardener
* Order: Guardian
* Tempest: Aeromancer, Pyromancer, Conjurer
* Trickery: Illusionist, Mesmer, Shadow-dweller
* Twilight: Shadow-dweller,
* War: Guardian, Infernal, Purifier
At 1st level: Choose a primary theme and one of the secondary themes from your chosen domain. You always have access to the spells of the Healer theme. Select your cantrips from these.
Spells prepared: Choose cleric level + WIS mod spells to prepare from any combination of your primary and secondary themes. You can change these every day.
Domain Spells: Each time you would gain a new set of domain spells, you instead can prepare two extra spells of your choice from the secondary themes granted by your domain.

Druid
Primary themes: Animalist, Conjurer, Gardener, Geomancer, Spiritualist, Transmuter
Unrestricted secondary themes: Healer, Purifier
Circle themes:
* Dreams (XGtE): Witch
* Land--Arctic: Cryomancer
* Land--Coast: Hydromancer
* Land--Desert: Light-bringer
* Land--Forest: Gardener
* Land--Grassland: Illusionist
* Land--Mountain: Geomancer
* Land--Swamp: Witch
* Moon: Guardian
* Shepherd: Conjurer
* Spores (TCoE): Gardener OR Witch
* Stars (TCoE): Seer
* Wildfire: Pyromancer
Prohibited themes: Infernal, Necromancer
At 1st level: Choose a primary theme and one of the unrestricted secondary themes. Select your cantrips from these.
At 2nd level: you gain the secondary theme of your chosen circle.
Spells prepared: Choose druid level + WIS mod spells to prepare from any combination of your primary and secondary themes. You can change these every day.
Land’s Guidance (new Circle of the Land ability, replaces Circle Spells): After you finish a long rest, you can change your attunement to the land type where you currently are, removing all prepared spells of the old secondary theme and gaining access to those of the secondary theme of the new terrain.

Fighter (Eldritch Knight)
Primary themes: Aeromancer, Cryomancer, Guardian, Pyromancer, Geomancer
Secondary themes: Anti-mage, Kineticist, Light-bringer, Mesmer, Transmuter, Transporter
Prohibited themes: Animalist, Gardener
At 3rd level: Choose a primary theme; you gain two cantrips and two 1st level spells from it. Your 3rd 1st level spell can come from any secondary theme.
Beyond 3rd level: All your spells come from your primary theme except those gained at 8th, 14th, and 20th level which can come from any of your secondary themes.

Monk (Way of the Four Elements)
Primary themes: Aeromancer, Cryomancer, Geomancer, Hydromancer, Pyromancer
Prohibited themes: Infernal, Mesmer, Spiritualist
At 3rd level: You have access to all 5 primary themes. At 3rd, 7th, 13th, and 19th levels you gain access to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells (respectively); you learn 2 cantrips of your choice at level 3 from your themes. At each of those levels, choose two spells; you may also switch one known spell for a new spell when you increase in level. Casting spells costs ki points equal to the spell level (including upcasting). This replaces your standard subclass pseudo-casting.

Paladin
Primary themes: Divine Warrior, Guardian, Light-bringer, Purifier
Secondary themes by Oath:
* Conquest (XGtE): Infernal OR Mesmer
* Devotion: Healer OR Spiritualist
* Ancients: Animalist OR Gardener
* Vengeance: Anti-mage OR Transporter
* Oathbreaker: Necromancer OR Infernal
* Redemption (XGtE): Healer OR Mesmer
At 2nd level: Choose a primary theme.
At 3rd level: Gain one of the two secondary themes for your chosen Oath.
Spells Prepared: Choose ½ paladin level + CHA mod spells (minimum 1) to prepare from your primary and secondary themes. You can change these every day.
Oath Spells: When you would gain access to a new set of Oath spells, you instead can choose to prepare two additional spells of that level from your secondary theme.

Ranger
Primary themes: Animalist, Spiritualist, Transmuter
Secondary themes: Divine Warrior, Gardener, Geomancer, Healer, Shadow-dweller, Witch
Prohibited Themes: Infernal, Necromancer
At 2nd level: Choose a primary theme and gain two 1st level spells from it.
At higher levels: Whenever you gain access to a new spell level (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th), you can learn two spells from any of the secondary themes for the class; these additional spells do not count against your limit of spells known. All other spells come from your primary theme.
Bonus Spells (XGtE/TCoE): removed--granted to all subclasses via the At Higher Levels clause.

Rogue (Arcane Trickster)
Primary themes: Illusionist, Mesmer
Secondary themes: Alchemist, Communications Mage, Kineticist, Pyromancer, Seer, Shadow-dweller, Transporter, Witch
At 3rd level: Choose a primary theme; you gain two cantrips and two 1st level spells from it. Your 3rd 1st level spell can come from any secondary theme.
Beyond 3rd level: All your spells come from your primary theme except those gained at 8th, 14th, and 20th level which can come from any of your secondary themes.

Sorcerer
Primary themes: Any non-prohibited
Secondary themes: Special
Prohibited themes based on Sorcerous Origin:
* Divine Soul: Void-Walker, Animalist
* Draconic: Healer, Anti-Mage, Divine Warrior
* Shadow: Light-bringer, Purifier, Divine Warrior
* Storm: Spiritualist, Animalist, Gardener, Divine Warrior
* Wild: Anti-Mage, Divine Warrior
At 1st level: Choose a primary theme and gain 3 cantrips and 2 1st level spells from it. The 4th cantrip can come from any non-prohibited theme.
At higher levels: Choose your spells from your primary theme.
New ability (level 3): Spell Emulation: Your mastery of the magic in your blood allows you to mimic spells you’ve heard of. You may expend a spell slot to cast any spell from any non-prohibited theme, using the regular casting time, concentration, and components. The spell emulated must be at least one level lower than that of the highest spell level you can cast as a sorcerer. Once you use this feature, you must wait until after a short rest to use it again. At 13th level, you gain an extra use of this feature per short rest. Metamagic can be applied as normal.

Warlock
Primary theme: Kineticist
Secondary themes by Patron:
* Fiend: Infernal OR Planeswalker
* Fey: Illusionist OR Shadow-dweller
* Great Old One: Mesmer OR Void-walker
* Celestial (XGtE): Divine Warrior OR Guardian
* Hexblade (XGtE): Witch OR Guardian
Spells Known: Your primary theme is kineticist; choose one of the secondary themes granted by your patron. Choose your spells known from this list; you can trade out one per level.
Patron Bonus Spells: Removed (replaced by secondary theme).

Wizard
Primary theme: Any non-prohibited
Secondary themes by Subclass:
* Bladesinger: Guardian
* Chronurgy (*): Communications Mage
* Graviturgy (*): Transporter
* Scribes (*): Any non-prohibited, but you only can choose spells from this theme that are of a level one lower than the highest you can cast as a wizard (So cantrips at level 2, 1st level spells at level 3, etc).
* Abjuration: Anti-Mage
* Conjuration: Conjurer
* Divination: Seer
* Enchantment: Mesmer
* Evocation: Aeromancer OR Cryomancer OR Pyromancer
* Illusion: Illusionist
* Necromancy: Necromancer OR Spiritualist
* Transmutation: Transmuter
* War Magic: Guardian
Prohibited themes: Animalist, Divine Warrior, Gardener, Healer, Purifier (except Evocation)
Spells at 1st level and above: Choose a primary theme. You get your secondary theme from your Arcane Tradition, chosen at level 2. Your 2 free spells per level (as well as those at 1st level) come from these themes. You can scribe any spell you find from a non-prohibited list into your spellbook, paying the usual costs in gold and time. School benefits still apply based on the appropriate school of magic.


Still needs a lot of work fine-tuning the themes, because some don't have enough spells to be meaningful and others have too many. I've used it for NPCs quite heavily, since I don't treat class-based lists as "canon" for NPCs.

[Kane0]

I don't have any issue (and in fact support) the idea of narrowing the wizard spell list by a lot. But doing it by school is a horrible idea because the schools aren't even close to being balanced like that. I actually went down that route experimentally and it was an utter nightmare.

Personally, I'd prefer one of the following routes:
1. Nix the class and instead break the existing thematics out into new, more focused classes (or merged with other classes). Sort of the Warmage/Beguiler et al concept from 3e.
2. Cut a crap-ton of the "best" spells out and parcel them out by subclass as bonus spells.
3. Cut a large chunk of the "utility belt" spells out of the class and out of the game (as spells), converting them into ritual-like things that anyone can learn to do. This would leave the wizard class list much more focused around doing things right now.


You have my interest. Want to start a homebrew thread?

[PhoenixPhyre]

You have my interest. Want to start a homebrew thread?

Any option in particular?

#2 is one I stole from you in the Wizard Thematics thread, although I have some thoughts and some work I've done in the past along those lines (if I can find it). It's also the simplest route. You might be better suited to start that one.
#3 is something I actually have posted about and have (reasonably) well developed, although it needs a serious balance pass from people better at that than I. Although my draft takes many of the non-combat/"utility" spells from everyone, not just wizards. (Google doc here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18BwA_2ZVFezeVr7DaCrmSEvHE3DMsUHYsHoY8ADqnL8/edit?usp=sharing))
#1 is, I think, the biggest job and conceptually the most interesting. I think I'll start a thread along those lines. More about sketching out what the space needing to be covered is and generating ideas, not doing the detail work. I'll edit this post with a link once I make it. Link to homebrew forum thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646332-Sketching-quot-fixed-list-quot-replacements-for-the-Wizard&)

[Pex]

I'm fine with the concept. I would worry about the implementation. I loathed 2E Priest's Handbook because of bad implementation. The Guardian Priest did not have Guardian sphere as a major, meaning the Guardian Priest could not cast Guardian spells above 3rd level. The Astral sphere takes up a slot for sphere allocation as normal. The Astral sphere only had two spells. One priest had Summoning, taking up a slot, as a minor sphere. That means can only cast Summoning spells up to 3rd level. There were no Summoning spells below 4th level. Edit: I may be Mandela effect misremembering this. It's true Summoning had no spells below 4th level, but it's possible I was relieved no priest was given Summoning as a minor. I don't know which memory is true. Cure Light Wounds was in Healing. Raise Dead was in Necromantic. Not every priest had both. Many had neither. For any D&D but in 2E specifically, for no one to have healing means a dead party. Even for 2E I accept and applaud the cleric should not only be played as a healbot, but healing is important and needed. I was also upset it did not have the 2E Tome of Magic spheres, but I would learn the Priest's Handbook was published before it. Fair enough. Why didn't Tome of Magic offer suggestions to add its spheres to the various priests?

For hypothetical 5E spheres, I could be fine with all clerics getting Cure Wounds, Prayer of Healing, and Lesser Restoration but only those with the Healing sphere would get Healing Word, Mass Cure Wounds, Revivify, Raise Dead, Greater Restoration. Not every deity, especially the Good ones, needs to grant Healing sphere, but it would not be exclusive to healing orientated deities.

I didn't have a problem with wizard opposition schools. It was annoying, in a good way, when playing a 2E Illusionist I couldn't cast Fireball, but I was still having fun. 5E spells are fun to play, and given 5E accepts wizards having class features besides the casting of spells wizards would remain fun to play despite no longer being able to cast any spell.

Maybe hypothetical 6E will bring the idea back and with better implementation than 2E. It could work in 5E as a DM homebrew, but it won't happen as a 5E official thing.

[Psyren]

Even if opposition schools came back, I'd want the PF implementation whereby you can still cast from your opposition schools but it burns more slots. Cutting them off completely just leaves you with wizards who feel weirdly truncated, being completely unable to do iconic things like fly or hurl lightning or shapeshift or dispel magic etc.