"Prone" in Mid-air?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Basic question: can you hold/shove a target "prone" in midair? I'm particularly interested in whether you can hold "prone" a creature you have grappled while you are flying (via expending an attack to shove that grappled creature, not automatically). Presumably, this would be more like holding the creature in a manner which is particularly disadvantageous to it (maybe dangling it by one of its feet or something?).

I don't see anything in the RAW which specifically prohibits it (admittedly, my search was cursory at best) if you simply use the Shove mechanics. But I'm wondering if there's any interaction of the rules which I've missed.

What say you?

[x3n0n]

Basic question: can you hold/shove a target "prone" in midair? I'm particularly interested in whether you can hold "prone" a creature you have grappled while you are flying (via expending an attack to shove that grappled creature, not automatically). Presumably, this would be more like holding the creature in a manner which is particularly disadvantageous to it (maybe dangling it by one of its feet or something?).

I don't see anything in the RAW which specifically prohibits it (admittedly, my search was cursory at best) if you simply use the Shove mechanics. But I'm wondering if there's any interaction of the rules which I've missed.

What say you?

If it's not held aloft already (by a hover speed, a grapple, or magical means), it falls: "Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell." (PHB, Combat, Movement, Flying)

If you're already grappling it, I think that works.

Edit: thinking on it more, if you grapple it, there's a reasonable RAW argument that your reducing its speed to 0 causes it to fall, which would be involuntary movement that takes it out of your reach, breaking the grapple. I prefer the "your grapple keeps it aloft" version, I think.

[stoutstien]

Yes. Grappling a target that's flying usually means it start falling unless you have a feature that allows hovering or levitation. Prone also has a clause in the PHB that states that it causes flying to fail (pg 71).

[Corran]

Basic question: can you hold/shove a target "prone" in midair? I'm particularly interested in whether you can hold "prone" a creature you have grappled while you are flying (via expending an attack to shove that grappled creature, not automatically). Presumably, this would be more like holding the creature in a manner which is particularly disadvantageous to it (maybe dangling it by one of its feet or something?).

I don't see anything in the RAW which specifically prohibits it (admittedly, my search was cursory at best) if you simply use the Shove mechanics. But I'm wondering if there's any interaction of the rules which I've missed.

What say you?
Well, you can use an attack to shove prone someone, and if sucessful the target's speed drops to 0, which if in mid air it means they are falling if they can't hover. At which point, if you've also have the target grappled, it means that you are either holding them in the air or taking a dive with them, depending on your carrying capacity.

Edit: Nohing in the RAW prohibits it, but a DM would be within their rights to ask for a description by which it would make sense for the flying enemy to be knocked off balance in a way that it would make sense for their speed to be dropped to 0. Some techniques that may work while on the ground might not be appropriate for while up in the air.

[stoutstien]

Well, you can use an attack to shove prone someone, and if sucessful the target's speed drops to 0, which if in mid air it means they are falling if they can't hover. At which point, if you've also have the target grappled, it means that you are either holding them in the air or taking a dive with them, depending on your carrying capacity.

Edit: Nohing in the RAW prohibits it, but a DM would be within their rights to ask for a description by which it would make sense for the flying enemy to be knocked off balance in a way that it would make sense for their speed to be dropped to 0. Some techniques that may work while on the ground might not be appropriate for while up in the air.

Small correction. Prone itself doesn't effect movement speed.

[Corran]

Small correction. Prone itself doesn't effect movement speed.
Yes, yes. Grappling does this.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Well, you can use an attack to shove prone someone, and if sucessful the target's speed drops to 0, which if in mid air it means they are falling if they can't hover. At which point, if you've also have the target grappled, it means that you are either holding them in the air or taking a dive with them, depending on your carrying capacity.

Yes, this is basically what I have in mind. A flying creature or PC grabbing (grappling) a non-flying creature, hauling it up into the air (assuming sufficient carry capacity) and then shoving it "prone" to get advantage attacking the creature and give the creature disadvantage on attacking the flyer (until it's time for the mike drop).

[stoutstien]

Yes, yes. Grappling does this.
Grappling ≠ prone. So if you just prone a flying target and it falls but doesn't hit anything before it's next turn it's doesn't even suffer from the prone condition and can just stop falling. alternatively if you use the XGtE rules it spends half it's speed to end the fall.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Grappling a creature to make it fall doesn't seem like something that would work in my mind, unless its a very short fall. Or if you're falling with them. It'd take extra effort to accomplish what you want to do, better to just shove them prone to accomplish the same goal.
For a comparison if you grapple someone by grabbing their legs they can just start walking again when you let go. Unless you take the extra effort to pull them to the ground.

So I think the only reason to bother grappling would be to pull the flying further down so when you do knock it prone and let go there isn't enough time for it to right itself before going splat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I have a player with a ring of slow falling and the ability to fly. He's done the "go get the flying thing, grapple it so they both fall, then we all beat it up" routine several times. Keeps the creature grappled so it can't get away as well

Of course I rarely have fights occurring where there's even a remote chance of catching yourself before you hit the ground. More like 30-50 ft, not 600 plus. So just knocking them prone drops then out of the air just fine. And hampers their ability to fly away, since they have to get up first which burns half their movement.

[ImproperJustice]

Feels like this helps the 4e Monk Water Whip slightly….run up a wall or jump high and prone a flyer for some lulz.

[Chronos]

Instead of knocking a creature's legs out from under them, you're knocking their wings out of position so they can't get lift. Or if you're grappling, you're holding the wings to keep them from flapping. Seems fine, thematically, to me.

And don't forget that, in addition to bringing the target into reach of the rest of the party, this will also include some falling damage.

The order I'd do this in would be either to knock prone first, then fly down after the creature and grapple it, or (if it's too high to reach them and I don't mind taking falling damage as well) grapple first, ride them down, and then prone them. Though actually it might not even be necessary for the grapple-first case, because I think that there's a rule that falling results in a creature being prone.