Duergar caster level: What to do?

[Condé]

Hello... It is me, again.


WHAT DO WE KNOW?

There is a thread on Minmaxforum.com talking about what you can do with the notorious duergar caster level. You can find it here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9671.0).

For these who don't know, Duergar can cast SLAs as twice their caster level.


Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.

My problem is... What can you REALLY do with that?

Meanwhile, there is still an argument about if Spell-like abilities fulfill the requirements for prestige classes like "ARCANE CASTER LEVEL X". (Like for Sandshaper, Mindbender, etc...)

We can find some rules about caster level, spellcasting level and specific spell requirements




CASTER LEVEL
In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as “caster level 5th”) measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualifi cation.
For example, Craft Wondrous Item has a requirement of caster level 3rd, so both a 3rd-level warlock and a nixie (caster level 4th for its charm person spell-like ability) meet the requirement.

SPELLCASTING LEVEL
Beyond the limits of magical power, a spellcasting level requirement measures the size and complexity of the spells that can be encompassed within a character’s mind. As spells increase in level, they become exponentially more complicated, requiring a discipline of thought and an understanding of principles impossible for low-level characters to learn. Wizards master these
advanced principles through careful study; sorcerers and other spontaneous arcane casters intuit what they need to know as their spellcasting experience grows.
Characters or creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations never learn the arcane circumlocutions of logic and mental training necessary for advanced spellcasting.
As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specifi c arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

SPECIFIC SPELL REQUIREMENTS
A requirement based on a specifi c spell measures whether the character or creature in question is capable of producing the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements for specific spell knowledge. For example, a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as a spell-like ability.

Last point I would like to talk about is... Caster Level. Are spell-like abilites Arcane? Are they Divine? Are they neither of them? For what I have learned, there is no definitive answer to that.

Except on the description of the spell "Arcane Sight" were we could have a hint:




This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly.

You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight. An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning level or an item’s caster level, as noted in the description of the detect magic spell. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + one-half caster level for a nonspell effect.)

If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use.

Arcane sight can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

But we can argue it is only for the effect spell Arcane Sight and not a general rule.


WHAT DOES DUERGAR QUALIFY FOR?

Assuming that Spell-like abilities are not considered like Arcane or Divine.

Prestige Class

Acolyte of the Skin.
Escalation Mage.
Primal Scholar.


Aaaaand... I think that's it. No Mindbender, no Sandshaper since it requires ARCANE CASTER LEVEL. Am I right?

Is there any feat you can take early with your buffed Caster Level? Any Class Feature that could use it? Anything?

I feel like it has potential but I can't find anything by myself and Duergar is not the most played race so I guess a lot of people aren't aware of that. Plus, if you play a Lesser Duergar, you do not even have this terrible LA+1 and can have all the benefits of a duergar for... Nothing.

So... What do you think? Are Duergar Spell-like abilities considered Arcane, since, you know... Invisibility and Enlarge Person are arcane spells and a Duergar cast it as a WIZARD... Or because Arcane Sight say so?

Or if it does not work, what can you do with that? I mean... It must be useful for something. Or... Am I overhyped for something that is not good in reality?

Thanks.

[ciopo]

I mean the very wording of sandshaper prerequisites imply that arcane spell-like are a thing that exists, and special abilities (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) determines what class list a SLA is presumed to be from (in order sorc/wiz>cleric>druid>bard>paladin>ranger)

Seems clear cut to me that duergar SLA is therefore arcane.

So what it ACTUALLY qualify for is... anything with caster level or arcane caster level prerequisite, just as per the original thread?


Was your doubt only in regard to the SLA being considered arcane or not?

[sreservoir]

Is there any feat you can take early with your buffed Caster Level? Any Class Feature that could use it? Anything?

Yeah, there are loads of generic CL requirements that you get early entry on. Just being a duergar is one of the easier ways to qualify for Craft Rod (and Forge Ring) in E6, for example, which I've always thought made great flavor: why is dwarven smithwork famous, even though their racial features do less for that goal than a bonus feat? Well, it turns out the evil underground dwarves have a near-monopoly on magic rings...

[Condé]

I mean the very wording of sandshaper prerequisites imply that arcane spell-like are a thing that exists, and special abilities (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) determines what class list a SLA is presumed to be from (in order sorc/wiz>cleric>druid>bard>paladin>ranger)

Seems clear cut to me that duergar SLA is therefore arcane.

So what it ACTUALLY qualify for is... anything with caster level or arcane caster level prerequisite, just as per the original thread?


Was your doubt only in regard to the SLA being considered arcane or not?

Actually, more or less. First I saw a lot of people saying that Spell-like ability are neither arcane or divine so it means you cannot qualify for most PrC.

Second, I was curious to see what it could be used for since there isn't many thread about that topic, as far as I know, and they are pretty old so I guess people might have new ideas since.

[Maat Mons]

My understanding is that, in general, spell-like abilities are neither arcane nor divine, but some specific spell-like abilities are definitely arcane. In particular, I seem to remember invocations being arcane spell-like abilities, and pretty much all other spell-like ability being neither arcane nor divine.

[Tzardok]

I'm sure this problem could be sidestepped by simply using the psionic version of the duergar. :smalltongue:

[Condé]

I'm sure this problem could be sidestepped by simply using the psionic version of the duergar. :smalltongue:

Problem is the psionic version is only 1xCl and not 2x. :C

[Tzardok]

Problem is the psionic version is only 1xCl and not 2x. :C

Solving two problems for the price of one alternative. :smallbiggrin:

[Condé]

Solving two problems for the price of one alternative. :smallbiggrin:

That's not how problem solving work, Tzardok!

[sleepyphoenixx]

My understanding is that, in general, spell-like abilities are neither arcane nor divine, but some specific spell-like abilities are definitely arcane. In particular, I seem to remember invocations being arcane spell-like abilities, and pretty much all other spell-like ability being neither arcane nor divine.

In general every spell-like ability that mimics a spell is either arcane or divine, depending what lists it is on.


Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

I'm not sure if it's clarified anywhere that other spell-likes default to neither or if they're assumed to be arcane too.

[nedz]

Are SLA's Arcane or Divine ? It's complicated:

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

There are also the Frost Dwarves (Planar handbook) which get the following SLAs.
1/day - chill touch and obscuring mist as a wizard of the frost dwarfs class level +2 (minimum caster level 3rd).
These are another type of Duargar which may provide more options.

[daremetoidareyo]

Doesn’t it say as a wizard? That’s arcane enough for me

[Thurbane]

You can create a Lich's phylactery early, if you want to become a Lich for some reason.

PS I'm the school of thought that SLAs are neither arcane nor divine, unless specified as such. I'm pretty sure both Complete Arcane and Complete Mage comment on this, but I'm too lazy to look up citations right at the moment.

[Condé]

You can create a Lich's phylactery early, if you want to become a Lich for some reason.

PS I'm the school of thought that SLAs are neither arcane nor divine, unless specified as such. I'm pretty sure both Complete Arcane and Complete Mage comment on this, but I'm too lazy to look up citations right at the moment.

Rules from Complete Arcane are under spoilers in the original post, if you want to check them. Or you can find them at page 72 on the same book.

I'm pretty bothered to not find anything "new".
I mean, Mindbender is cool for Mindsight shenanigans but otherwise the class is pretty... Bad.

I'm not interested by Sandshaper...

Acolyte of the Skin, while flavorful, has pretty bad class features (And you have a penalty on charisma lowering the DC of some of them), medium BaB AND 5/10 spells. I even ckecked the Iron Chef of this class to be sure...
Oh and you cannot enter at ECL 3 but 4, because of the 6 ranks in Knowledge (The planes) required. So AT BEST you can enter at level 5 instead of 6 by having a higher caster level than you should have. But entering Acolyte of the skin earlier make you just suck quicker I guess.


And at last we have Blood Magus... Which is not great either.

I searched through the entire Troacctid's "List of all prestige classes that progress spellcasting"... To be sure.
Then every class that didn't progress spellcasting, in hope to find something like Hammer of Moradin, a class requiring spellcasting but that does not improve it... But nope. Nothing.

I'm looking for other races with SLAs that could potentially make other early entry into PrC, because I really like the idea of entering a prestige class as early as possible without abusing heighten spells or other convoluted feats combinations like that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm looking for other races with SLAs that could potentially make other early entry into PrC, because I really like the idea of entering a prestige class as early as possible without abusing heighten spells or other convoluted feats combinations like that.

Aasimar get Daylight 1/day which qualifies them for Paragnostic Apostle at level 3. Since the various options for their knowledge is power ability have their own skill requirements (there are some as low as 5 or 6 but most require 8+ skill ranks) it's of limited use though unless you only wanted the low level abilities anyway.

[Zarvistic]

I'm looking for other races with SLAs that could potentially make other early entry into PrC, because I really like the idea of entering a prestige class as early as possible without abusing heighten spells or other convoluted feats combinations like that.
For CL 5, there are the lesser genasi.

[Rebel7284]

Early access to craft contingent spell is fun.