My Lawful Neutral Ecclesitheurge has trickery as their secondary domain. Can it work?

[Zhentarim]

I'm building a Lawful Neutral Ecclesitheurge of Asmodeus with Fire as their primary domain. So far so good, as a fire domain cleric would obviously have an affinity for throwing fire at enemies and staring into the warm campfire late into the night when the party rests, and might have a bit of a pyromaniac streak (even if Lawful). What tricks me up though, is even though I like the mechanics of the trickery domain, as well as the extra spells and class skills it gives clerics, to me, trickery feels like a more chaotic deity domain. While this could be fixed by being Neutral Evil instead of Lawful Neutral, I'm playing in a non-evil party, so I want to be more lawful. Any tips for utilizing the Trickery domain without losing Asmodeus's favor?

[Analytica]

Basically, be the kind of lawyer defending rich people and companies against lawsuits. "Trickery" here means, letting someone make just the right mistakes, then showing them the things they did not think of which now, through their own vice, has damned them when all the applicable principles come into play.

[KillianHawkeye]

There's absolutely nothing saying a Lawful person can't be deceitful. Especially as a worshiper of Asmodeus, the freakin' boss of all devils (AKA known tricksters), you should know all about the usefulness of trickery.

Contrariwise, honesty is not a Lawful trait. Chaotic people can be just as honest as Lawful ones. This is simply put not an alignment issue at all.

[Zhentarim]

Basically, be the kind of lawyer defending rich people and companies against lawsuits. "Trickery" here means, letting someone make just the right mistakes, then showing them the things they did not think of which now, through their own vice, has damned them when all the applicable principles come into play.

I like this idea. Also, I found this on a similar thread:

Lawful people can't be sneaky, stealthy, subtle and deceptive? Since when? Law and Chaos are supposed to be about your governing ideals, not your tactical approach to things.

I heard this rumour that sometimes, cops go undercover to catch criminals. And that governments have been known to employ people called "agents" who make a point of not telling people what they are, and that sometimes lawyers have been known to obfuscate the truth. If policemen, governments, and lawyers aren't Lawful institutions, I'd be quite surprised.

[Biggus]

Basically, be the kind of lawyer defending rich people and companies against lawsuits. "Trickery" here means, letting someone make just the right mistakes, then showing them the things they did not think of which now, through their own vice, has damned them when all the applicable principles come into play.

Fiendish Codex II, p.4-5 has a story about Asmodeus which is very much in this vein. It ends with him saying "read the fine print".

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd say that Lawful and Chaotic differ mostly in how they're dishonest. Chaotic is more likely to flat out lie while Lawful is likely to play semantic games and deceive while literally telling the truth.

But then again, fey are traditionally chaotic and many stories say they can't straight up lie. Doesn't mean they can't bend the truth inside and out and make it sit up and beg on command. CF the Aes Sedai of Wheel of Time for a more lawful version of that same trick.

[Zhentarim]

Fiendish Codex II, p.4-5 has a story about Asmodeus which is very much in this vein. It ends with him saying "read the fine print".

I just read the story. It was a good one.

[Ramza00]

So let’s step back a step and think about lore. DND takes is lore about law and chaos from the Fantasy / SciFi novels of Michael Moorcock. In fact in some of the personal games of GG some of the Moorcock deities were used. The 1980 Dieties and Demigods also included Melnibonéan mythos from the Elric stories by Michael Moorcock and Cthulhu stuff from Lovecraft and that Book had to be retracted for it got sued.


The works of Michael Moorcock, especially The Elric Saga and Corum series, where the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Law pick Champions to fight for them. Neither Order nor Chaos are portrayed as very nice. It's pointed out in the books: Chaos means that every possibility is allowed (symbolized by the eight-arrow symbol), but at the end, you'll just move back and forth and get to nowhere. Order (symbolized by a straight arrow) means that you have direction, but exclude some possibilities — in the worst case, all of them. A world gone too far in Chaos is one where shape cannot be maintained and horrible things will try to eat you. A world gone too far in law will eventually become a featureless white plane. And although Order has a superficial appearance of being Good, and Chaos of being Evil; the true Good is, in fact, the Balance, with Evil being the extremes of either Order or Chaos.

And here is a Wikipedia article on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Chaos

Well this Moorcock lore inspired DND, Warhammer, and DC with some versions of The Lords of Order and the The Chaos Lords aka Doctor Fate stuff.

———

So yeah Trickery is not really lawful or chaos in Moorcock lore but let’s look at another fantasy work to examine Asmodeus like figure.


So in DC there is a character of Vandal Savage who has different origins and different personalities in various DC properties over the decades.

In the Young Justice tv show of the last 10 years Vandal Savage is the big bad and leader of a secret society. In Season 3 and 4 we learn more of Savages’ origins. He is a 50,000 year old human who became an immortal meta human after sleeping next to a radioactive rock which made him immortal, very durable, and with regeneration. He has the mark of cain on his face for prior to sleeping next to the radioactive rock he fought a bear and had an injury on his face. (Thus myths were created later.)

Vandal’s personality over the last 1,000 years has been seeking a balance between chaos and order for he wants to create a race of super humans. A project he has tried several times in the past before that but now he does things in the shadows with his secret society the Light, and Vandal now plays mostly well with others a thing he has not always done well in the past with. Savage is focused on Balance and Advancement hating stagnation and hating things which he can not control which he considers to be wasteful. A pure Asmodean devil like figure (this is why I mentioned the Mark of Cain earlier.) Oh this show also has a Lord of Chaos brat called Klarion the Witch Boy, and a Lord of Order Doctor Fate who earlier reincarnation is related to Vandal.

An ever present evil that has been with humanity since it’s beginning, except is he the evil in the garden or is he just an amoral super-character who does not care about morality and ethics for he sees himself as outside of humanity, and humans are his garden to prune and create for he will outlive so many generations of humans.


Is this helpful?

[liquidformat]

I mean Asmodeus is a Devil and the name of the game is trickery. What can you get away with without 'breaking' the rules. Add extra fine print to a contract that just happens to look like a pretty decorative boarder? sure why not. Talk circle around people to make something horrible for them seem like the best idea ever? If they are dumb enough to get confused that is their problem not yours. Perform a bit of stealth recon to get a better idea what your enemy is thinking? Why would anyone go in blind.
Seriously It would be weird for a devil worshipper to not see the intelligence in trickery.

[Zhentarim]

I'd say that Lawful and Chaotic differ mostly in how they're dishonest. Chaotic is more likely to flat out lie while Lawful is likely to play semantic games and deceive while literally telling the truth.

But then again, fey are traditionally chaotic and many stories say they can't straight up lie. Doesn't mean they can't bend the truth inside and out and make it sit up and beg on command. CF the Aes Sedai of Wheel of Time for a more lawful version of that same trick.

So putting ranks in the bluff skill may still come in handy, then? Stealth and disguise were for sure getting skillpoints, but if my character can bluff without shifting into true neutral territory, that's great.

Also, Ramza00 mentioned Doctor Fate. Is Ramza00 talking about this doctor fate?

https://youtu.be/Bv3pwibJvEc
I think when he fights "The Joker" that's pretty much his opposite.

[Raven777]

As any optimizer or min/maxer or rules lawyer will tell you, you can 100% be tricky and clever all within the rules. Heck, there's even more pride to be had being tricky and clever within constraints.

Also, you know, the freakin' Batman, the iconic Lawful hero, is all about stealth and overwhelming asymetric combat tactics.

[Ramza00]

So putting ranks in the bluff skill may still come in handy, then? Stealth and disguise were for sure getting skillpoints, but if my character can bluff without shifting into true neutral territory, that's great.

Also, Ramza00 mentioned Doctor Fate. Is Ramza00 talking about this doctor fate?
I think when he fights "The Joker" that's pretty much his opposite.

Yep I am talking that Doctor Fate :smallsmile: but like I said before there are multiple AUs in DC and some are more "Moorcock" inspired and some are not. When Martin Pasko and Roy Thomas of the 1970s and 1980s revamped Doctor Fate they created a parallel mythos but DC. After this Roy Thomas even adapted some Elric (the eternal return hero) Moorcock stories into Elric comic book adaptations.

Doctor Fate being a Captain Marvel like figure (both Shazam and the Marvel superhero) of two characters in one body, one a law god, the other a human.

But I was also comparing Doctor Fate to Vandal Savage, another Lawful character who is more trickery and while he leans lawful he is more into the balance than pure law order. Pretty much law vs order for in Moorcocks writings capital O order is too stifling and anti-human at its core, lower case order aka Law is sensible.


https://youtu.be/azbVohqgmMM

[DarkOne-Rob]

Of note - many people consider the Trickery domain a trap. I like it, but it’s tough to use well.