Sketching "fixed-list" replacements for the Wizard

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think while the Magic User made sense in OD&D and maybe AD&D (when it was the wizard), I think that time has past. The class's class-fiction is basically just the Sage background, and there's no actual enforcement of that "theme" (such as it is). And its power budget is almost entirely consumed by its spell list, meaning you cant get interesting class features. And you can't really balance it, and it's prone to creep more than anyone else because every new book gives wizards dozens of new class features that they don't even need to switch subclasses for, aka spells.


This is an attempt to think through and sketch out the design space for a cluster of "fixed-list" casters that would split the space occupied by the wizard into more manageable and more thematically-coherent chunks. No real attempt at details considered here, just trying to get a handle on the scope of the project. And feedback is very welcome--this is at the concept-generation stage, not the mechanical-implementation stage.

The inspiration, of course, is 3e's "fixed-list" casters: the Warmage, the Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer. But I'm not going to consider myself bound by their implementation at all.

Notes:
* "Preferred schools" is not a limitation. Just a note about what schools the largest single chunk of their spells should likely come from.
* I'm horrible with naming things, so all names are placeholders. Pull requests welcome.
* Where's the Beguiler? See the Bard entry in the PHB. No, seriously. That's the bard's toes you're stepping on with iron hobnailed boots there.
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The Warmage
Concept: Warmages, as their name suggest, specialize in the direct military applications of magic. Specifically those that involve mixing magic and martial combat -- these are not your supporting engineer types. They fight with magic and/or steel. Most of them are some form of gish-ish type.
Preferred Schools: Abjuration/Evocation.
Special things: d10 HD, armor proficiency, weapon proficiency (via subclasses). Some form of "smite-like" way to burn slots for effects/mix spells and weapon attacks. Extra Attack (special).
Spellcasting: Full-casting slots. But no 6+th level spells on their lists. Spells known OR prepare from full list (undecided).
Subclasses: (1st level)
* Battlemage: Heavy armor, big weapons. STR secondary. Some form of damage shield (like the current Abjurer Arcane Ward), possibly a "bubble effect" that can shield others.
* Spellsword: Light armor, finesse weapons. DEX secondary. High mobility, some form of tactical teleport.
* Artillerist: Blow things up from a distance. CON secondary. Inherits the evoker's shape spells.

Summoner
Concept: Pet class, focusing on conjuring things (mostly elementals) to fight for/with them. Weaker casting, mostly supporting because most of their direct power is in their pet(s).
Preferred Schools: Transmutation/Conjuration
Special things: Pet(s). Warlock-like "invocations" to modify/work better in concert with their pet(s).
Spellcasting: Warlock style, but prepared from spellbook. Bonus spells per sub-class.
Subclasses: (1st level)
* Lava: Focus on one big melee brute pet (fire + earth). Bonus spells are mostly damage.
* Lightning: Focus on a swarm (not a literal one) of smaller, disposable pets (fire + air). Very mobile.
* Ice: One pet, more balanced, ranged (water + air). Focus on buffing.
* Mud: Multiple melee pets. Focus on battlefield control and debuffs, especially movement/action economy manipulation.

Alienist
Concept: They transform things. People too.
Preferred Schools: Transmutation/Enchantment
Special Things: d8 HD. Some level of self-directed shapechanging early on, providing limited martial capability and defenses without burning slots.
Spellcasting: Warlock style, but prepared from spellbook.
Subclasses:
* Inward: Focus primarily on manipulating your own form. More of a direct combatant.
* Outward: Focus on transforming others. The best at polymorph (et al).

Necromancer
Note: I really think that necromancy is better as an NPC thing...but I know others disagree.
Concept: They don't just see dead things, they make dead things. And make them dance.
Preferred Schools: Necromancy/Conjuration/Evocation.
Special Things: Temporary pets. ???
Spellcasting: Full caster like current wizard. Much smaller list.
Subclasses:
* Bad Touch Magoo (I said I was bad with names!): Focuses on dealing necrotic damage and imposing conditions. Doesn't usually summon long-lasting undead, but does do lifesteal.
* Dread Necromancer: Your classic "I've got an undead army" guy.

Generalist
Concept This is your classic "I know stuff" guy. The spell packrat. The ritual dude.
Preferred Schools: Any.
Special Things: Can learn spells. Ritual casting (extended to allow casting some things as rituals that aren't normally so). Expertise in skills.
Spellcasting: Full-caster, but stops learning new spells for free at 5th spell level. Can learn from scrolls. Has chance to learn spells that aren't normally on their list.
Subclasses:
* Adventuring Archaeologist: Comes with whip proficiency and has the "keep the hat on the head" feature. (ok, mostly joking here).
* Ritualist: Extra super good at rituals.

Information Specialist
Note: Really need a better name.
Concept: Diviner, illusionist, spy. Specializes in finding out the things no one wants him to know and keeping others from the truth he wants to hide. Points out weaknesses for benefit.
Preferred Schools: Divination/Illusion
Special Things: Gets something akin to Bardic Inspiration, but more offensively minded. Can cause vulnerability?
Spellcasting: ??
Subclasses:
* [Finder] : Better at uncovering weaknesses
* [Hider] : Toxic illusions? All about the psychic.

[Kane0]

Would you be averse to rendering these as subclasses to a 'mage' class in order to limit the scope for achievability sake? I have had similar thoughts in the past.

Mage:
d6 HP, INT & WIS saves
2 skills from primarily INT 'knowledge' skills
INT based full caster using spells prepared from a spellbook (base list is rather limited)
Class features & ribbons generic by design (slot recovery, performing rituals faster, readying spells without concentrating, breach spell resistance of targets, favourite 1-3 spells, etc)

Most of the meat in terms of flavor and features will be in the subclasses, each one expanding the spell list as well as providing subclass features (which can be recycled from the existing wizard)

Beguiler (enchanter + illusionist): expanded valid targets of charm/dominate spells, bypassing language/intelligence restrictions
Binder (conjurer + diviner, 'summoner' subclass): enhanced 'outsider' familiar that can be enhanced with spell slots, numerical improvements to summon spells, advantages dealing with 'outsiders' and extraplanar spells, defensive/utility teleports
Blaster (evoker + abjurer): blasty spells with range/damage/crit boosts, tougher to break concentration and have spells dispelled/countered, protect allies from AoEs, basically arcane caster version of the champion fighter
Necromancer (necromancy, mass pets): drain health with spell damage, numerical improvements to curses and other debuff spells, able to control more summons at a time
Scribe (scribe + runes + rituals): able to quickly swap spells prepared from spellbook, able to duplicate and share around spellbook, scribe runes onto things like makeshift scrolls, create new spells faster/cheaper
Shaper (transmuter, utility pet): special ooze familiar, partially alter/polymorph items and creatures for a selection of minor benefits, numerical improvements to BFC spells, force shapechangers into their real forms
Warmage (bladesinger + war mage, gishy subclass): weapon/armor profs, much more resilient spellbook, extra attack w/ cantrip, numerical/quality of life benefits for weapon creating, weapon buffing and tensers transformation-esque spells

And some of these could incorporate some extra choices as well, either each time its used like the transmuter's philosophers stone or when you get the feature like for example a capstone for the shaper deciding if you turn yourself into either a shapechanger or a golem.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Having a single class makes it impossible to do things like varying HD, having different spell slots, etc. Which is rather the whole point of the exercise. Because the single base class is number 2 of the options I presented (base class with few spells plus more in subclasses).

With this, I can actually vary things other than just spell selection. Such as giving the pet types "invocations" to customize their stuff. Without overloading the sub class.

And I'm not fond of anemic base classes. Because the subclasses just don't have enough features to cover things without a solid base to build on.

Your option is certainly easier, but isn't this option at all and should be run in parallel in a different thread.

[Kane0]

That's fair. So

As you say, Bard covers the Beguiler already. No need to double up.

Summoner; do you think there's enough space for one now that we have multiple other classes all with their own pets (warlock, ranger, artificer, druid)? Multiple pets or even a swarm is an angle that hasn't been taken yet, as are more exotic pets like aberrations, oozes, constructs.

Necromancer I love the idea of siphoning HP with magic as a core feature, however I feel that warlocks already straddle the line here much like Bards do with the Beguiler concept, especially looking at curses and the like. Legion of the undead as a concept could also easily be a variation of summoner.

I'm struggling to see Generalist as a whole class with multiple subclasses, how much can you branch out here?

Warmage absolutely makes sense, with subclasses to cover different approaches at blasting and gishing? I could see the self-transmuter being a good subclass here

Broker/Spymaster/Inquisitor also could be a good niche, an investigation counterpart to the bard's socialization and the rogue's stealth. How you would split subclasses I have no idea, but I do like the concept of expanding on the Mastermind/Inquisitive as a full caster. This would likely necessitate some additional fleshing out of the social/exploration pillars though, or it risks ending up just an imitation of certain bard subclasses.

So realistically, I'm seeing probably 3 classes at most here, given the double-up on existing content/themes/mechanics and the need to have multiple subclasses for each that provide variation in play.

[rel]

I like this idea, wizard is a problematic class, and an alternative option would be good.

The generalist class as written doesn't seem to fit the design goals of having a focused theme rather than a long laundry list of cosmic power.
Maybe a further focusing down on the rituals component?
Say the class gets a much wider range of spells known and slots for levels 1 to 4, with a big focus on utility but everything above level 4 is only available through ritual?

I feel like the sword based war wizard options risk overlapping with the existing gish type classes, but it obviously depends on implementation.
Maybe buffs and debuffs as other subclasses along with straight damage and leave wearing armour and marching into melee to the likes of paladins and clerics?

Maybe play up the divination angle of information specialist and use a name like Seer or Prognosticator for the class.
Or go with something more mind themed like sage for the base class and split it into straight diviner and illusionist as sub classes?

[Jervis]

These all seem like a interesting starts. Generalist appeals to my inner archivist who’s loves collecting things, especially if it has a whip using subclass. For Warmage though if I might make a suggestion, I would personally modify the spell progression for warmages to not have 6th level and above slots (since they don’t get spells of that level anyway) and have more lower level ones or a way to recover them at higher levels. In place of higher level slots they might have some kind of way to “overcast” spells cast with a 5th level slot to boost their damage more than upcasting would. Not sure how that would work out on paper though aside from mimicking warlock.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The goal with giving them the bigger slots was for up casting. Since they are mostly blasting, which kinda scales ok. And can be adjusted with class features (now that there's actually room for such things).

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thinking about the Warmage--

I think instead of "heavy armor" / "light armor" / "artillery" as subclasses, the subclasses should be Squad Assignments (ie the type of unit they're normally attached to as support)

1. Heavy Infantry. These are your protection specialists. The infantry do most of the killing and the mage is there to help them do so. A second-line type (medium armor) whose special thing is attaching ablative shields (temp hp or Arcane Wards or reducing damage) to others (spending spell slots to do so). Sure, they can still blast and do ok with a weapon (but not great, martial proficiency and extra attack, but no special interaction), but their specialty is holding the line.

2. Skirmishers. These are focused around enabling their squad to move fast and quiet and strike hard. Mostly buffers and specialists in stealth/moving. In combat their special thing is enhancing their allies attacks (via aura-like pulses fueled by spell slots). Light armor and extra attack, with proficiency in ranged and finesse weapons.

3. Artillery/Archer. These are your heavy hitters. Long range glass cannons. With a side of protecting against ranged attacks. They can spend spell slots to upcast/super-upcast more than anyone else. No extra attack and only light armor. No particular weapon proficiencies.

None of them would get heavy armor or more than a d8 HD.

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@rel:

1. The generalist was included because I knew people would seriously whine if I didn't. But yeah. I'm thinking it's roughly a half-caster but can learn rituals beyond that. And even convert some non-ritual spells into limited-use rituals. Like (say) teleport. Or can scribe higher level spells but can only cast one (per level?) for free; any others cost <something else like HP, HD, or some kind of penalty>. Their "special things", I'm thinking, would be (depending on subclass)
a. pointing out enemy's weaknesses (effectively "tagging" them so other people's attacks deal extra damage)
b. getting to learn everyone's rituals (including getting some for free on level up). Like a super Book of Shadows.

2. I like that idea for the Information Specialist. Probably the Sage -> Diviner / Illusionist split (but not hard locked, just enhanced capabilities).
a. Diviner special: Predict the future (limited amounts of "But I saw that coming and..." retcon, with the range you can reach back and "flashback prepare" increasing with level.
b. Illusionist special: Shadow conjuration (aka partially-real illusions that can actually hurt things directly).

[Kane0]

Thinking about the Warmage--

1. Heavy Infantry.
2. Skirmishers.
3. Artillery/Archer.

None of them would get heavy armor or more than a d8 HD.


I would posit thorns specialist as a 4th option; the caster that actively wades in and draws attention with retributive spells like armor of agathys and fire shield. They might also double as field medics since they will be taking quite a bit of damage, perhaps with features to mitigate damage taken rather than avoid it. This one could even be the reverse where the squad largely supports the warmage.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I would posit thorns specialist as a 4th option; the caster that actively wades in and draws attention with retributive spells like armor of agathys and fire shield. They might also double as field medics since they will be taking quite a bit of damage, perhaps with features to mitigate damage taken rather than avoid it. This one could even be the reverse where the squad largely supports the warmage.

So some form of "tank" type (of the tar trap type).

[sandmote]

the subclasses should be Squad Assignments (ie the type of unit they're normally attached to as support) Have one or two subclasses that are this, and then some subclasses that take the core concept in a different direction. "Long range glass cannon" and "hold the line" sound like solid concepts.

I'd maybe also include a "these effects that weaken you also strengthen me," subclass. If they're upcasting lower level spells its probably the easiest way to handle that concept anyway, since you can grant a subclass feature that provides THP or something similar when you cast a blaster spell.

I think your Skirmishers need a second pass, but that could easily turn into the polymorph et al subclass at higher levels.


a. pointing out enemy's weaknesses (effectively "tagging" them so other people's attacks deal extra damage) This sounds like your idea for a "finder" subclass of the information specialist. So if does seem like the more detail you're giving the less justification there is for the "generalist" and "information specialist" to be separate classes. Off the top of my head I'd call the concept the "researcher." Then for subclasses:

Knows about enemies and their weaknesses
Enhanced communication skills, including spells to speak with and contact/question lots of creatures.
Reduces the knowledge of others (via 'psychic' effects/illusions/debuffs)
Predicts the future


Pet class, focusing on conjuring things (mostly elementals) to fight for/with them. Weaker casting, mostly supporting because most of their direct power is in their pet(s). I'd drop the elemental focus and instead have each subclass focus on one theme for the summon, and have its own creature type. Admittedly less flexibly than "all summons get X, Y and Z" for character ideas, but I think it would be easier to design multiple strong subclasses if both differ.

Example summon themes:

Summons provide auras
lots and lots of weak summons
same summon changes significantly for different scenarios
summon is part of your body, creating strong self-buffing effects.

And then each of these also gets partnered with an appropriate creature type like celestials, undead, or some sort of elementals. That way ribbons can be tied to the particular creature type, instead of having to come up with elemental-focused effects throughout the entire class.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Have one or two subclasses that are this, and then some subclasses that take the core concept in a different direction. "Long range glass cannon" and "hold the line" sound like solid concepts.

I'd maybe also include a "these effects that weaken you also strengthen me," subclass. If they're upcasting lower level spells its probably the easiest way to handle that concept anyway, since you can grant a subclass feature that provides THP or something similar when you cast a blaster spell.

I think your Skirmishers need a second pass, but that could easily turn into the polymorph et al subclass at higher levels.


Probably. Good ideas here.



This sounds like your idea for a "finder" subclass of the information specialist. So if does seem like the more detail you're giving the less justification there is for the "generalist" and "information specialist" to be separate classes. Off the top of my head I'd call the concept the "researcher." Then for subclasses:

Knows about enemies and their weaknesses
Enhanced communication skills, including spells to speak with and contact/question lots of creatures.
Reduces the knowledge of others (via 'psychic' effects/illusions/debuffs)
Predicts the future



Probably true. And fewer base classes means easier work =).



I'd drop the elemental focus and instead have each subclass focus on one theme for the summon, and have its own creature type. Admittedly less flexibly than "all summons get X, Y and Z" for character ideas, but I think it would be easier to design multiple strong subclasses if both differ.

Example summon themes:

Summons provide auras
lots and lots of weak summons
same summon changes significantly for different scenarios
summon is part of your body, creating strong self-buffing effects.

And then each of these also gets partnered with an appropriate creature type like celestials, undead, or some sort of elementals. That way ribbons can be tied to the particular creature type, instead of having to come up with elemental-focused effects throughout the entire class.

I'm not sure how I feel about wizards conjuring celestials (or fey or beasts). That seems more like clerics and druids' jobs. But having a fiend-summoner, an elemental summoner, and a necromancer might make sense....heck, you could move the "blasty/vampiric" part of necromancy into the warmage, being the "I heal by nuking you + debuffs" type (flavored as creepy black magic). Which would leave the rest firmly in the summoner category.

So subclasses like
* Fiend summoners provide auras and focus on the "one big smashy thing" type.
* Elemental summoners summon different elementals for different occasions, but mostly have one big summon.
* necromancers flood the battlefield with a bunch of weaker things.
* aberration summoners merge with their summons/take on aspects of their summons.

[rel]

2. I like that idea for the Information Specialist. Probably the Sage -> Diviner / Illusionist split (but not hard locked, just enhanced capabilities).
a. Diviner special: Predict the future (limited amounts of "But I saw that coming and..." retcon, with the range you can reach back and "flashback prepare" increasing with level.
b. Illusionist special: Shadow conjuration (aka partially-real illusions that can actually hurt things directly).

In that case how about you give the sage base class the ability to stealthily cast spells, maybe something like subtle spell.
That should be useful to both the diviner and the illusionist subclasses.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So I'm working on the warmage in a bit more detail.

I'm thinking level 1 subclasses choice, since it gives weapon/armor proficiencies.

The main "class thing" will be Siphon Energy: basically a pool of points you build up by casting spells. Each subclass will have a dump, but the basic one is to upcast spells without spending the bigger slot. But you don't gain any points from that upcast spell. The bigger the difference between the slot you spend and the target slot, the bigger the cost.

The goal being for it to fuel its special things by casting spells. Spend those big slots to fuel big booms and gain points. Then use those points to fuel your stuff or to pretend you have more higher level slots.

[Kane0]

Reckon the Warmage should get a feature loke action surge or quicken spell, maybe in tier 3? Something to let them doublecast lower level spells so they can multitask better djring the heat of battle.

[Jervis]

Reckon the Warmage should get a feature loke action surge or quicken spell, maybe in tier 3? Something to let them doublecast lower level spells so they can multitask better djring the heat of battle.

Maybe something like casting two spells who’s levels add up to the level of the spell slot you used? No bonus for upcasting in this situation obviously. Since they won’t have high level spell slots that could work. Actually how broken would it be to cast two fireballs for a 6th level spell slot?

[PhoenixPhyre]

For reference, my current (very WIP) Warmage concept is here: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/PiDBSNRPLLcP


Reckon the Warmage should get a feature loke action surge or quicken spell, maybe in tier 3? Something to let them doublecast lower level spells so they can multitask better djring the heat of battle.


Maybe something like casting two spells who’s levels add up to the level of the spell slot you used? No bonus for upcasting in this situation obviously. Since they won’t have high level spell slots that could work. Actually how broken would it be to cast two fireballs for a 6th level spell slot?

Note: my current design does have higher level slots, just not higher level spells.

My current thought is as follows:

Doublecasting (level 11 feature).
When you cast a spell with a cast time of 1 action, you can spend a mote[1] to reduce the casting time to a bonus action.

Basically quicken for a slightly different cost. However, subclasses would get (at a higher level) features to manipulate that further, such as the Artillery Squad Mage getting "More Dakka" (real name and exact wording TBD):

More Dakka (level 18 feature)
When you use Doublecasting on a warmage spell that deals damage, you can use your action that turn to cast any warmage spell with a casting time of one action that deals damage of Xth level or lower instead of only being able to cast a cantrip.

So the high level Artillery mage can blast out two fireballs in a turn, one from a 9th level slot and one from a 5th level slot.

While the Heavy Weapons mage (who gets life-steal abilities) might get something like

Empowered Lifesteal (14th level)
When you use Doublecasting to cast a spell that heals you for part of the damage dealt, you regain X additional HP even if the spell had no effect.

and the Special Forces mage might get

Blurring Speed (14th level)
When you use Doublecasting, you can immediately move up to your speed without provoking attacks of opportunity

or maybe

Sudden Strike (14th level)
When you use Doublecasting, the next attack you make on your turn is made at advantage[2]

[1] a resource gained from casting spells, maxes out at your level. Sort of the inverse of sorcery points, they're built up by expending spell slots and then used for other features or to "upcast for free".
[2] the Special Forces mage gets a Sneak Attack like ability even on their attack spells