Number of attacks scales like cantrips, what changes?

[Jervis]

Ok that title is clickbaity but my space is limited. In this hypothetical universe the WotC dev team decided that extra attack was a very boring feature, so they made it so that anyone with proficiency in a weapon can attack twice at 5, three times at 11, etc. All the (sub)classes they considered giving extra attack too now get a feature at appropriate levels that compliment it. As just an example the sought after bullet points from the feats PAM, CBE, GWM, and SS, possibly along with other enhanced weapon options, could be taken at these levels as "advanced fighting styles". Feats may or may not be able to let you grab others. Classes that don't normally get extra attack don't get changed very much with the possible exception of rogue sneak attack being reduced in damage, possibly being applied on every hit but having a much slower progression, or possibly being a one turn damage stack thats just a little smaller to compensate. What possible changes could come from this to the game?

What possible class changes might happen to classes that had extra attack and eventually got level 11 power boosts, paladin and fighter for example? The boring but practical feats, or at least the best parts of them, are logical but what else might they get?

What classes would be the biggest winners of this change?

How might boss monster design change outside of just adding more HP because of this?

I mostly just pose this hypothetical as a way to get some discussion. I'd like to see what people have to say.

[sithlordnergal]

Basically, any spell caster ends up winning with this change, as now they are just as good in combat with martial weapons as the Rogue, Barbarian, and Fighter. In fact, Fighters end up losing out the most here, since their only big "thing" outside of class features is the ability to attack a lot in a round.

[Witty Username]

I would propose in this world fighter should auto hit all attacks to compensate.

[Jervis]

Basically, any spell caster ends up winning with this change, as now they are just as good in combat with martial weapons as the Rogue, Barbarian, and Fighter. In fact, Fighters end up losing out the most here, since their only big "thing" outside of class features is the ability to attack a lot in a round.

I mean I agree that casters win more though I wouldn’t say martinis are at an automatic loos. Like I said things like GWM and PAM would be effectively (Martial Class) level 5 feature. Those feats would probably be removed in that case. That said I have no idea what to give a fighter at 11 and 20, other than another improved fighting style or something at 11 assuming they’re good enough you would want 2 and, idk, a permanent change to large size at 20 or something. Fighter 20 is the embodiment of boring but practical.

I would propose in this world fighter should auto hit all attacks to compensate.

Memes aside I think the playtest martial die that was turned into the battle master subclass should be base fighter. Assuming fighter at least gets a major rework that’s probably something they would need.

[Keravath]

I'd agree with the suggestion that it would be broken. With a house rule like that, full casters would have it all. An Artificer 1/wizard X could wear armor and a shield, have full spell slot progression, cast high level game changing spells AND do just as much damage in melee as any martial class could do. Makes bladesinger pointless. Why bother playing a martial class when every class becomes a martial class? On top of that, what features could you possibly add that would match the full spell slot progression from a casting class? Martials do have some other features already and it is debatable whether they can keep up with wizards in terms of what they can do at high levels but if everyone could attack then distinguishing the classes becomes a bit pointless.

In addition, the reason that martial attacks are better than most cantrips is because each attack adds the stat modifier to damage while the scaling cantrips just add a die of damage at each tier (with the notable exception eldritch blast with the agonizing blast invocation - which is what makes it so good). A +5 to damage is the equivalent of adding somewhere between a d8 and a d10 of damage to every attack. An 11th level fighter making 3 attacks with a d8+5 damage - would be slightly better than a regular d8 scaling cantrip doing 6d8 (rather than the usual 3d8 in tier 3) of damage.

In addition to the effect on casters, it would also boost any other martial class - rogues get 3 attacks at level 11 and only need one hit to generate a 6d6 sneak attack on top of that, paladins will pick up an additional attack with IDS stacking on top of that. You would have to give the fighter class something absolutely game breaking like the suggestion of their attacks never miss - or every hit is a critical - to compensate.

[Psyren]

As others have said, you would outright murder Fighter in cold blood with this change and the other martials would not fare much better. They would increase in effectiveness relative to where they are now, but not nearly as much as casters would, and the gap between the two would widen further. In short, not a good idea.

[Tanarii]

It might work if you made finesse a Rogue/Ranger class property instead of a weapon property. So that everyone and their mother (ie arcane casters) wouldn't keep attacking with their Dex 14 and dagger in Tier 2.

[Mastikator]

I would propose in this world fighter should auto hit all attacks to compensate.

Since there's no attack roll they won't be able to benefit from GWM or SS though.

To compensate they instead just add a flat proficiency bonus to each of their damage rolls.
And since champions can't benefit from their extended crit, instead the first attack automatically crits.

Aaaaaaaaalmost makes me want to play champion. :smallamused:

[Pildion]

Ok that title is clickbaity but my space is limited. In this hypothetical universe the WotC dev team decided that extra attack was a very boring feature, so they made it so that anyone with proficiency in a weapon can attack twice at 5, three times at 11, etc. All the (sub)classes they considered giving extra attack too now get a feature at appropriate levels that compliment it. As just an example the sought after bullet points from the feats PAM, CBE, GWM, and SS, possibly along with other enhanced weapon options, could be taken at these levels as "advanced fighting styles". Feats may or may not be able to let you grab others. Classes that don't normally get extra attack don't get changed very much with the possible exception of rogue sneak attack being reduced in damage, possibly being applied on every hit but having a much slower progression, or possibly being a one turn damage stack thats just a little smaller to compensate. What possible changes could come from this to the game?

What possible class changes might happen to classes that had extra attack and eventually got level 11 power boosts, paladin and fighter for example? The boring but practical feats, or at least the best parts of them, are logical but what else might they get?

What classes would be the biggest winners of this change?

How might boss monster design change outside of just adding more HP because of this?

I mostly just pose this hypothetical as a way to get some discussion. I'd like to see what people have to say.

Gish would love you lol. Any full caster now has AttackX4, so all casters are now Gish? Remember while cantrips scale, they don't add the modifiers and weapon damage that attacks do for every one, and even when you get something like Clerics Potent Spellcasting, its applied once, not to each dice roll of the cantrip.

This would be crazy buff to BladeSinger\Cleric's\HexBlades\Pally's

[Saelethil]

I would say this is too much for casters and might limit it to any class that innately gets extra attack at level 5. Still might be too much for Paladins but it would open up some design space for mid/high tier fighters.
We would probably also want to give something extra to rogues and artificers to make up for not getting extra attacks. Maybe sneak attack dice become d8/d10 at some point and maybe artificer’s get an additional bonus to cantrip damage or get some meta magic.
Whatever the decision is it would still be clear power creep. It would just happen to improve martials instead of caster’s which I’m kind of ok with.

[strangebloke]

Moon druid gets giant elk form at six and can cast conjure animals and then turn into an elk and deal 2x4d6 damage every turn while also having one of the most powerful concentration spells active and effectively having unlimited HP.

Every random wizard can spam Shadow blade at their highest level and make every martial cry (more)

Like sure, not every caster would take advantage of this, but the point is they could.

Terrible idea, it would only boost the most powerful classes.... absolutely appearing in the next splat.

[Jervis]

Moon druid gets giant elk form at six and can cast conjure animals and then turn into an elk and deal 2x4d6 damage every turn while also having one of the most powerful concentration spells active and effectively having unlimited HP.

Every random wizard can spam Shadow blade at their highest level and make every martial cry (more)

Like sure, not every caster would take advantage of this, but the point is they could.

Terrible idea, it would only boost the most powerful classes.... absolutely appearing in the next splat.

Believe it or not I actually almost labeled this speculation because I had a weird feeling this would be the default in evolutions with martial characters getting something else at 5, 11, etc. It’s not something I would implement as is with a house rules just this weird hunch I had in the back of my mind that might happen.

[OvisCaedo]

If instead of working like cantrips, it worked like multiclassed spell slot progression for designated "martial" classes, IE only counting classes who get extra attack normally, you'd have less of an issue. But you'd also have early multiclassing just have significantly less cost in general, and fighters would really need some rework, and reflecting on it this version sounds remarkably similar in flavor to 3.5's BAB progression for additional attacks.

Paladin getting more always-on attacks without cost might end up being a bit ridiculous, though.

[Selion]

Ok that title is clickbaity but my space is limited. In this hypothetical universe the WotC dev team decided that extra attack was a very boring feature, so they made it so that anyone with proficiency in a weapon can attack twice at 5, three times at 11, etc. All the (sub)classes they considered giving extra attack too now get a feature at appropriate levels that compliment it. As just an example the sought after bullet points from the feats PAM, CBE, GWM, and SS, possibly along with other enhanced weapon options, could be taken at these levels as "advanced fighting styles". Feats may or may not be able to let you grab others. Classes that don't normally get extra attack don't get changed very much with the possible exception of rogue sneak attack being reduced in damage, possibly being applied on every hit but having a much slower progression, or possibly being a one turn damage stack thats just a little smaller to compensate. What possible changes could come from this to the game?

What possible class changes might happen to classes that had extra attack and eventually got level 11 power boosts, paladin and fighter for example? The boring but practical feats, or at least the best parts of them, are logical but what else might they get?

What classes would be the biggest winners of this change?

How might boss monster design change outside of just adding more HP because of this?

I mostly just pose this hypothetical as a way to get some discussion. I'd like to see what people have to say.


Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You gain instead this feature once whenever the combined levels of classes that have this class feature add to five. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does).

In italic my suggested changes (to be corrected in proper English).

Edit: Solution slightly less simple:

Extra attack(x1): Add together class levels with this feature, until you reach a total of five
Extra attack(x2): Add together class levels with this feature and class levels with the feature Extra attack(x1) halved (rounded by excess), until you reach a total of eleven

Example
ranger 4 fighter(x) takes extra attack (x2) by level 13