How things look from Miko's point of view

[Doshi]

I would like to try to describe how the course of events might look from Miko's perspective. Before I begin, let me say that I think the big problem between Miko and the Order is that they come from different cultures, and neither quite understands the other. Neither Miko or the Order has given the other the respect they believe they deserve. Many of you think that Miko is a hypocrite, or makes a lousy leader, but I'd suggest that if she was leading a group of Paladin monks from her own culture, she would be an excellent leader. (I've made a few minor changes in response to 'nit picking'. Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback.)

Consider what's happened from Miko's position. Miko is born into her country's nobility, and loses her parents at an early age. She enters a monastary, and undergoes an intense, rigorous course of training, and becomes a monk. After years of training, she enters an elite Paladin organization, trains intensively, and eventually becoming a Samurai, a position that commands the highest respect in her culture. And then, her Lord gives her an assignment of the highest importance. A group of foreigners has destroyed a portal that played a critical role in maintaining the very structure of Reality itself. It is her sworn duty to hunt these foreigners down. If she fails, it could well lead to the entire and complete destruction of her entire world, for these foreigners, who call themselves the Order of the Stick, might well destroy other portals, or commit other acts of Evil. She begins the long quest to find the Order.

As she searches, she interviews others, and hears many stories that lead her to believe that the Order is dangerous and Evil. Finally, at last, she confronts the Order, and learns that the Order's leader, Roy, radiates a powerful aura of Evil. She confronts the Order, and demands they surrender. The leader refuses, and she defeats him in battle. But her Smite Evil ability does not hurt him, and a cleric who belongs to the Order explains that the reason why the leader appears to be Evil is because he wears a powerful Evil artifact. Miko asks herself, why does he wear a powerful Evil object like that? This is suspicious. Miko questions the Order, and asks them to explain the many strories she has heard that say they have done Evil things. The Order gives her an extraordinarily unlikely story. they claim that there is a evil group called the Linear Guild that looks very, very much like them. Miko finds this story hard to believe, and she has no reason to believe the Order is telling the truth, but she admits to herself that it just might be true. Miko provisionally decides to let her Lord determine whether this story of the Linear Guild is true or not.

The Order denies they have damaged Reality, but when she tells them they are accused of destroying the portal, their reaction makes it clear that they are in fact guilty of this act. It seems from the way Roy reacts that the Order's bard, Elan, is the one who destroyed the portal. Roy and the cleric Durkon say that all of the members of the Order are nonevil, but Miko suspects they are lying about one of the members of the Order, a halfling called Belkar. Hard as it is to believe, this halfling actually carries an lead sheet that he uses to prevent Miko from scanning his alignment! Miko is tempted to snatch the lead sheet from the halfling and examine his alignment anyway, but the halfling makes the unlikely claim that the heavy lead sheet is important to his culture. She strongly suspects the halfling is lying, but Miko knows that she doesn't really understand the culture of these foreigners, and so she reluctantly lets the matter rest.

Roy agrees to accompany Miko back to her home to stand trial. It's not clear how much of the subsequent discussion Miko hears. Does she know that Belkar, Haley and the Elf V are ready to kill her in order to avoid being arrested? We don't know for sure that Miko overheard the conversation where Roy persuaded them to accept arrest, but if she did overhear this, it goes a long way towards explaining her antipathy towards this group of criminals. Miko does know that Roy treats her with some disrespect, even though he is at least willing to accept that he must answer to her Lord for the destruction of fthe Portal. For example, when he asks Miko her name, he rudely cuts her off before she can name her father. He calls Miko by odd names, like Baby, and calls her odd things, like Hot. It's not clear to what degree Miko understands that Roy is, in a crude way, trying to court her, but given the way she initially reacts to his apology in episode 150, I think she is probably more aware than many gave her credit for. If Miko is aware of the way Roy seems to regard her as an object of lust, she may well to some degree resent his familiarity. But again, she knows she does not fully understand these foreigners. It is best, she thinks, to say nothing, at least until Roy gives her some sign that he understands that she will not take his suit seriously unless he shows her more respect.

Miko learns to her surprise that the Order is transporting a vast treasure. As a member of intensely disiplined hierarchy of Paladins, Miko finds the wealth of the Order of the Stick suspicious. Could they really have acquired so much wealth by honest means, or was it stolen? One of the members of the Order, Haley, seems extremely greedy. Haley seems obsessed with weath, going to the extreme of regularly washing the gold coins and acting almost as if the coins were her (Haley's ) children! Miko thinks 'How bizarre these foreigners are!' The Order claims to have acquired the wealth from the hoard of an Evil Dragon. Are they telling the truth or not? Miko knows this is another matter for her Lord to decide.

While leading her prisoners back to her Lord for trial, Miko meets a group of dirt farmers. These simple peasants are being attacked by a group of monsters, and the Laws of Miko's Lord requires her to aid them.
Most of the members of the Order are wliling to do their duty, and aid the Dirt farmers, but Miko notes that one of them, the elf, is reluctant to do so. Naturally, Miko notes this. It willl be included in her report to her Lord, and will no doubt be taken into consideration when her Lord judges the Elf. Miko learns that she is a better tracker than Belkar, who performs that function for the Order of the Stick. Remarkably, Belkar admits that he has no training in Survival, which is a skill needed by any true tracker. Miko notes Roy's surprise at learning this. It is, she thinks, an indication of Roy's inferior skills as a leader that he would only now discover that his group's tracker was incompetent.

In the fight against the monsters, Miko naturally takes the lead in determining the tactics that will be used, as is her right and duty as a Samurai. She assumes, based on the customs of ther own culture, that since the members of the Order of the Stick have accepted that they are her prisioners, they are obligated to follow her orders in battle. Naturally, as is her duty, she takes the most dangerous position in the battle herself, for it would be beneath her dignity to order her prisoners to accept a greater level of danger than she herself is prepared to take. Naturally, her battle strategy works brilliantly, and the monsters are defeated. But she notes that elf needs to be urged to do its duty by the Dwarven cleric Durkon. This naturally raises Durkon in her estimation, while lowering the elf. Her opinion of the elf is damaged even more after the battle is over, when the elf persumptiously presumes to give her a bill for services rendered. As if the elf had not been obligated to obey lawful orders, and as if the elf had not been so lackluster in the perfomance of its duties. Truly, the unending arrogance of these foreigners is beginning to wear on Miko's patience. and Miko informs the elf that no bill is appropriate under these circumstances.

While travelling, some of Miko's prisoners state that they are far too tired to continue. This is, Miko thinks, an indication of their lack of training and discipline. She herself has trained to continue working for long periods without sleep. But being aware that her prisoners have not been trained to the same degree of perfection she has achieved, she agrees to let them rest, even though she knows there are no rules that strictly require sleep. Her prisioners wish to spend some of the treasure they are transporting in a nearby inn. Miko herself has often slept in the outdoors (for this was part of her training as a Monk) and advises her prisoners not to waste their money. But her prisoners not only insist on patronizing the inn, but insist that Miko herself is obligated to pay their expenses. Miko reluctantly agrees, even though her Lord has given her only a small amount of money. However, they have not stayed in the inn for very long before Durkon and Elan come to Miko, and tell her that dangerous assassins are present, and trying to kill Roy. Miko also learns that Roy has somehow become a woman. Miko's first priority in this situation is of course to insure that the innocent persons staying at the inn are not harmed. Most of the people in the inn are lured out though the use of a ruse involving free pudding, but Miko knows there may be some innocent persons still in the inn. Naturally, she unhestatingly risks her own life by reentering the inn, looking for anyone who needs to be rescued. While doing so, she meets Haley and the elf. When questioned, Haley claims she is also trying to rescue innocent persons in the inn, but Miko suspects Haley may in fact be lying. It's more likely, Miko thinks, given Haley's extraordinary greed, that she is in fact trying to recover her own treasure. But Miko does not have time to lecture Haley on what is really important in circumstances like this. She must search the inn for anyone who needs help to escape. We don't know exactly what happens next, but Miko may well be instrumental in saving the life of the King of Somewhere, given that he is so grateful to her that he agrees to pay her bill at the inn.
Miko manages to get out of the inn just before an explosion that would have killed her. When she rejoins the Order of the Stick, the elf is describing in a loud tone of voice just how absolutely delighted it is that she (Miko) is now dead. Miko walks up behind the elf. When the elf realizes that Miko is in fact not dead, the elf makes no effort to even pretend that it is sorry or apolegetic that it was caught expressing its delight over Miko's death. Not that Miko is surprised, given that the elf has never made even an attempt to hide the contempt it obviously feels for Miko.
Roy has somehow returned to being a male, and for the first time actually seems to be showing Miko the respect that she naturally deserves. He apoligizes for the way he presumed to court her. Miko is pleased by this gracious acceptance of error on Roy's part. She feels she is obligated to repond in a positive manner, and informs Roy that if he wishes to continue to court her, she would be willing consider reciporocating his feelings.

But then, using language more crude than anything he has ever said to her before, Roy insults her, denouncing her as being reprehensible. Miko is utterly shocked. No one in her entire life has ever spoken to her so rudely before. After several moments in which she is literally unable to speak, Miko manages to ask Roy to expalin his extraordinary outburst. Roy accuses her of not following the tenets of Good. Miko knows that this accusation is false. Like all Paladins, her actions are judged by the immortal God themselves. Unlike the members of any other character class, if a Paladin violates the Higher Law of the Gods, they are instantly punished by the loss of their abilities. Yet Roy goes further, sneering at the very class of Paladins itself. He presumes to show contempt for the way in which Paladins must monitor the actions of those around them...as if he knew better than the immortal Gods who had decreed the laws under which all Paladins must act! Miko tells Roy he has no right to speak to her this way...she is, she tells him, a Samurai, and she knows that the laws of her culture require that Samurai be treated with respect. But Roy denies that the Laws of Miko's culture bind him, he insists that he is not going to go with Miko to be tried by her Lord. And most of the other members of the Order of the Stick show their support for Roy. Elan, Haley, the elf and Belkar, all express their refusal to do their duty and submit to trial by Miko's Lord. Roy arrogantly tells Miko that they wiil not be tried by Miko's Lord unless they are dragged there in chains, and they are obviously confident that Miko lacks the power to compel them to submit to trial. Miko knows that if she tries to take the Order by force, she may well die. But her duty to her Lord takes precidence over all such fears. Her duty is clear. Miko must defeat the Order, no matter how dangerous the attempt to do so may be. And so she seizes the moment, and attacks! Because Durkon has not joined his fellows in defiance of her Lord's will, she does not attack him. She even allows him to heal some of the members of the Order, even as the other members of the Order strive to kill her. But by displaying the exceptional skill in combat that she had developed in the service of her Lord, Miko is successful! Though she herself bears some wounds, she manages to chain Roy, Elan, Haley, the Elf and Belkar, and accompanied by Durkon, whoim she allows to travel freely, prepares to march them back to her Lord, where they will be judged by a Higher Power. And there is, on the final panel of episode 151, a deep frown on Miko's face, for she is saddened that these foreigners have forced her to adopt such tractics. She had hoped that they might have shown some remorse, for having damaged the very structure of Reality itelf. But sadly, such is not the case.

[Swordster]

*applause*

Well done. A thought-out, articulate, sensible defense of Miko. You have my thanks and admiration.

[Flak_Razorwill]

Nitpick: It's a lead sheet, and it's comic #250.

But I digress. Reading from 250 to 251, she reacted in a very expected way. Good call on the cultural standards, because that forms most of the problems. However, to add to the line, no one likes to be called names. Not only was her honor horribly besmirched, she was actually being nice. As in "now that you seem to be less of a perv, then maybe, JUST maybe we could get together" kind of nice. In light of what has happened earlier, she even seemed downright agreeable/forgiving for the moment. Alas, even though Roy sobered up from his lewdness, he still came off as a jerk. Miko's reaction seems pretty logical: if I were to actually lower my guard and, in some clumsily small but significant way show affection, I'd expect a respose equalling something like Roy's previous, more mature speech. Any girl who got Roy's actual response would be reliably apalled. Of course, the person's nature would dictate the response. If the offended was of a very sensitive nature, then she'd probably run away crying (like Hilgya...*shiver*). However, Miko is first and foremost, a badass warrior from a Sengoku Jidai-ish society. When offended, honor and service take over, and the situation goes from stunned silence to severed arteries in under 30 seconds.

(Apologies if I'm just reiterating someone else's take. I didn't pay much attention to the main thread.)

[toysailor]

When the story is focalized through a particular character's point of view, the observer tends to sympathize/empathize more with said character. One can probably use the same lines of argument employed by Doshi in favor of the OOTS.

e.g.

1. OOTS was on a quest to vanquish an evil lich.

2. They didn't know destroying the portal was such a bad thing.

3. They were thereafter, on a dark and stormy night ambushed by what seems to be a mad kungfu paladin woman accusing them of a most heinous deed.

4. Mad kungfu paladin woman treats them like criminals and orders them around, which from the OOTS's point of view is rude and uncalled for, given that the latter believed that they were innocent (or at least that they've only commited the "crime" in ignorance).

5. Mad kungfu paladin woman takes the OOTS's talents for granted (BTW - a prisoner isn't obligated to follow the orders of the captor. The captor can enfore his designs on the prisoner, but the prisoner does not owe any allegiance to his captor. Wonder where all that "YOU ARE MY PRISONER AND MUST FOLLOW MY ORDERS" thing come from).

6. Mad kunfu paladin woman constantly insults the OOTS's way of life (e.g. treasures as ill-gotten gains when they are, pretty much risked life and limb for it).

7. To add insult to the injury, the OOTS's leader appears to have developed untimely sexual tension with mad kungfu paladin woman. The OOTS's respect for their leader makes them grudgingly be led by Trouser Titan.

etc. etc. etc. I'm sure more observant readers can find more stuff in favor of any side of the argument. This topic, while being a breath of fresh air from all that Miko-hating, is moot.

[xyzchyx]

More nitpicking....

Belkar isn't untrained as a tracker. He's a ranger, and has the tracking feat automatically.

However, he doesn't have any ranks in Survival, and according to the feat description for Tracking, tracking something for extended distances requires a survival check. Survival checks can be made without any actual ranks in the skill, so Belkar could still be marginally competent as a tracker in spite of no ranks in survival. I say "marginally competent" because we know that Belkar's Wisdom score is poor, and Survival is a skill that uses the Wisdom modifier. The bottom line is that Miko (with not only the tracking feat, but also a high enough wisdom to qualify to be a Paladin) would have been a better tracker than Belkar even if she didn't have any ranks in survival at all. However Belkar is probably better than anyone else in the Order, as he was probably the only one that had the Tracking feat.

[Shiremaid]

It is very nice to see someone intelligently defending Miko though I agree with toysailor that a similar argument could be made for the OOTS.
I think Roy was right in much of what he said about, just maybe not so right in the way he said it. As you said, Doshi, culture seems to be a major barrier in this "relationship"

[Ilover_Juventad]

Yes, this is very well done, though I also agree that any similar case may be developed for the OotS. Going behind that, bravo, Doshi. Agreeing with Shiremaid's post, culture does seem to affect things. I, playing several samurai characters in Western Campaigns, can slightly moderately experience what Miko might be. (Except that I'm not Lawful Good and own a home) *snickers* For example, while I was in the field, waiting for an enemy with the man I served, a knight came back with his lance. He's wounded and says he ran off to prevent further loss of life. My character went in an outrage as a right hand. "Coward! Draw your sword now, and reclaim your honor!" However, this seemed to cause a gap with my character's party and I, as culture has heavily influenced it.

-IJ

[Slibs]

5. Mad kungfu paladin woman takes the OOTS's talents for granted (BTW - a prisoner isn't obligated to follow the orders of the captor. The captor can enfore his designs on the prisoner, but the prisoner does not owe any allegiance to his captor. Wonder where all that "YOU ARE MY PRISONER AND MUST FOLLOW MY ORDERS" thing come from).

Not quite true. They gave their word they would accompany her to clear their names. In Medieval terms this was known as Parole. They have given their honorable word, and she treats them with honor and trust. Its actually only after they break this vow that she defeats and chains them.

[Marller]

Well done Doshi, that sums it up pretty good. :)

[Mia]

I agree that it is really some cultural differences that are the major problems with Miko and OOTS.

However, she is rather conceited and has no real desire to even try to understand why the OOTS don't see things her way. To me she is the perfect example of an ugly foriegner, she projects her beliefs and social outlook on others with no thought about how they look at society. They are her prisoners and she has stated before she doesn't have to show any respect to them.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=223

She has potential however, she is basically a good person but has alot to learn about intercultural differences.

[chibibar]

that was a hard read.... please break it up into paragraphs :)

I gave up cause my eyes hurt :(

[Ashbless]

I agree that it is really some cultural differences that are the major problems with Miko and OOTS. However, she is rather conceited and has no real desire to even try to understand why the OOTS don't see things her way. To me she is the perfect example of an ugly foriegner, she projects her beliefs and social outlook on others with no thought about how they look at society. They are her prisoners and she has stated before she doesn't have to show any respect to them.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=223

She has potential however, she is basically a good person but has alot to learn about intercultural differences.

Oh I'm not too sure - I thik she's got Belkur sussed, even if she can't yet prove it.

I agree with the comment about multi-culturism, but not so much about ugly foreigner - afer all, she is the equivilent of a sherriff in the Old West, hunting varmints - it's her job, as well as her attitude that annoys the OoTS.

As far as she is concerened, she's been given a job to do, and she's doing it to the best of her ability.

Nobody has to like her for doing it... that clearly isn't in the job description.

[aaronbourque]

When the story is focalized through a particular character's point of view, the observer tends to sympathize/empathize more with said character. One can probably use the same lines of argument employed by Doshi in favor of the OOTS.
Well, of course. The thing is, the entire comic is essentially from the PoV of the OoTS, with only a few asides to other things. The comic already presents the Order's side of things.

Miko doesn't really have that. If the name of the comic was "The Sapphire Guard" and started out focusing on Miko, poor little noble orphan girl trained in the deadly arts of war and the solfter arts of Paladinhood, when presented with this Order of The Stick, we probably would have been revolted by their actions.

Roy's clumsy attempts to court her might have been amusing, but they would have been a little painfully embarrassing, too.

Haley's cattiness toward Miko would have made the audience think Haley was the bitch.

V's arrogance and insistence that Miko was intellectually inferior, despite evidence to the contrary in the very same strip, would have made us not care whether V was male or female so much as wondered when Miko was finally going to lose her patience and punish the Order.

Belkar's attempts to hide his alignment--as well as his comments about murdering the dirt farmers and that grin he gets when he's about to cause violence--would have horrified the average audience member, and his plots to get a restraining order to keep her from using Detect Evil on him would have been decried as "unfairness" towards the rightful protagonist of "The Sapphire Guard."

Only Durkon would come off as even remotely all right, but that would be marred by his present company.

Most of the audience would wonder when the writer would get rid of these horrible people.

Doshi's well written and articulate, aside from a few typoes, defense of Miko is actually merely speculation. It's reasonable to assume that Doshi's take is accurate, but it's possible to believe that it's not, and Miko really is the self-righteous bitch the majority seem to believe her to be. I don't think so, and agree with Doshi pretty much entirely. Maybe now that the Order has basically been taken out of the action for a bit we'll get some of Miko's actual story, and see which way it goes.

Or, we'll just cut away until they reach the homeland of The Sapphire Guard and Lord Shojo . . .

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[Duraska]

Doshi, you are my new hero! You have managed to tell the story through Miko's eyes -- something I've been trying to do, but lacked the ability to pull off. If people would stop and actually look at Miko's character, they would find a person with many different layers. A servant, a leader, a scared apprentice in foreign lands, and a master tactician.

Miko is the most 3-dimensional stick figure i've ever seen.

I just wish your post could be Stickied, so others would read it. Please note also that the people who disagree with you only seem to be able to nitpick on minor (unimportant) details, or complain that it's "too long." Obviously they will go on blindly hating Miko, calling her unsympathetic, when they themselves would never even give her a chance. Also note how they claim that things would be different if the story was told through OOTS's eyes. Odd, since this comic is called "The Order of the Stick," and the ENTIRE comic is already told through their eyes.

To sum it up. You're my hero Doshi, and you rock!

[chibibar]

wow much better :) thanks..

good story.

love it, agree with it :)

[Deleran]

Nitpicky points of contention. 1) Samurai is a title of nobility, not something you can earn. 2) If you've ever read the Heike, it'd be fairly obvious that the idea of samurai being ruled by some sort of rigid honor system was an invention of a later, peaceful time.

[Doshi]

Deleran, your nitpick about Samurai was true in Japan, but as Miko once said to Roy, "What is this Japan you speak of?" You may also be right about Miko's world; perhaps the only reason she is a Samurai is because her parents were nobles. But we don't yet really know how Rich will define the requirements for becoming a Samurai. In a world where there are real Paladins, who receive real powers from real Gods, it seems to me who should be much easier for the populace to decide who is truely an honorable leader and who is not. The existence of clear, objective standards by which people could determine who is really just and honorable would almost certainly profoundly influence the way power and authority were allocated. I therefore think it plausible that you would need to be a Paladin to become a Samurai.

[carnivore]

A well thought out argument, indeed. However, just because Miko happens to be in the right doesn't mean I'm not still going to hate her.

[aaronbourque]

A well thought out argument, indeed. However, just because Miko happens to be in the right doesn't mean I'm not still going to hate her.
Well then, you win. Congratulations.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[toysailor]

Not quite true. They gave their word they would accompany her to clear their names. In Medieval terms this was known as Parole. They have given their honorable word, and she treats them with honor and trust. Its actually only after they break this vow that she defeats and chains them.


Well actually, at least half of the order didn't feel that they were wrong in the first place, and wouldn't have subjected themselves to Miko's orders if not for the leadership of Trouser Titan. Only Roy (and possibly Durkon) have given their "honorable word". Haley couldn't resist the free trip and V made it clear that he was only interested in learning more about the fabric of reality. Elan and Belkar are just going along for the ride. So where does the "honor and trust" factor in? Didn't see no explicit "vows" there.

As aforementioned, this topic is entirely subjective. With enough story-telling talent, one can even paint the Linear Guild as the protagonists. There has been enough mainstream literature starring anti-heroic/villainious characters to substantiate this point.

Everyone's been posting decent arguements though, I must say. ;)

[Sneak]

and she treats them with honor and trust.

Right...but she doesn't.

Anyway, very well thought out and written article. But, like Carnivore, I still hate Miko.

[Kadi]

I don't hate Miko at all. *hugs Miko plushie*

But I won't pretend that she (and through her, "Lord" Shojo) has not acted dishonorably towards the party by taking them prisoner.

I mean, if I'm right, I'm right. Or don't you believe in objective morality?

To argue that she comes from a different culture smacks of cultural relativism.

[ref]

Well done, Doshi. At last an objective view on Miko...

oh, and Kadi... I want a Miko plushie too!

[Marller]

I mean, if I'm right, I'm right. Or don't you believe in objective morality?
I, for my part, don't. Morality is always subjective.

[Kadi]

Generally speaking, I don't quite know where I stand on objective vs. subjective morality. But I notice that it's usually the types of people shrieking the loudest in favor of law (which, to me, implies a generally absolutist view of morality) are the ones who are trying to nuance Miko's and "Lord" Shojo's actions. Okay, maybe "nuance" isn't the right word, but do you get what I mean?

[Doshi]

I'd like to examine the last argument between Miko and Roy in a little more detail. I think it's pretty clear that Roy and the other members of the Order had just suffered an absolutlely crushing blow to their morale. The sudden loss of that much treasure would anger and demoralize almost anyone. And I think its plausible that Roy is feeling rather guilty about the destruction of the inn. Roy knows that if he hadn't been pretending to be a King, the asssassins would never have attacked him in the first place. He also knows the explosion only happened because Belkar rushed around that corner and knocked the assassin, who accidently lit the fuse.

Miko is angry that the innocent owner of the inn has suffered. But she is much less sympathetic towards the other members of the Order. One could argue that the fight between Miko and the Order might not have happened if Miko had shown some sympathy towards the Order, and said something like, "It's too bad you lost all that treasure." So why does Miko not sympathize with the Order? First of all, Miko was not there when the Order fought the Dragon. She does not know how hard the Order had to fight to get the treasure. In a larger sense though, Miko disapproves of greed, and deep, selfish greed seems to her the main reason why the Order valued the treasure.

Miko and the Order live in a world where Gods really exist, and they tend to see the hand of the Gods in events that we might see as meaningless coincidence. Remember how Durkon saw the Hand of Thor in the rainstorm that was occurring when the Order first meet Miko? Miko believes she sees a divine judgement in the Haley's sudden inability to speak. Remember, the last time Haley spoke to Miko, she told Miko what seems to Miko to be a shameful and blatant lie. While Miko was risking her life in a burning building to save the lives of innocents who might be trapped within, Haley and V were trying to get their treasure out before it was destroyed. And when Miko asked Haley what she was doing, Haley claimed that like Miko, she was also trying to save the lives of others. Why did Haley say that, instead of saying, "We need to get the Gold out!" I think she was just a little ashamed that Miko was in there helping others, while she was trying to get the gold. Haley is, after all, not really an evil person, even if she is greedy. She was quite happy to help the dirt farmers. Because Haley dislikes Miko, she didn't like it when she found Miko in that building acting in what even to her looked like a more ethical manner than she was. So she covered her embarrassment by claiming she was also trying to help others. Perhaps she rationalized her comment by thinking, "Well, I am trying to help my father."

From Miko's point of view, Haley's sudden inability to speak looks like divine punishment. Because of this, and because she is angry about the harm done to innocents, she lectures the Order, and reminds them that this wouldn't have happened if they had followed her advice, and not gone to the inn in the first place. The fact that this statement is true means that it hurts Roy and the others more than it would otherwise have done.

Roy is also probably angry that his plan to capture the assassins failed, and that the inn was destroyed. He had deliberately excluded Miko from knowing what was going on, because he wanted to make sure that it was his plan, as opposed to a plan of Miko's, that was used to resolve this problem. I think Roy did this because he wanted to prove to himself and to the others that his planning abiliities were superior to those of Miko. Roy has a deep emotional commitment in his self image as an intelligent fighter, one who can plan and control the course of battles. He's not some dumb fighter, who needs to be told what to do! (I suspect Roy's father sneered at him and said if Roy didn't study magic, he would become a dumb fighter) Roy sees himself as an intellectual of war, he has a MBA (Masters in Battle Administration)! Roy was very angry when Miko took control of the fight to save the Dirt Farmers, and his anger was only made worse when he learned that Miko actually had a clever plan, a plan which was probably even more clever than what he had had in mind. It was after Miko won that fight that Roy really started to dislike her.

Having the inn destroyed in the way it was hurts Roy's self image. He failed to calculate all the variables, and to control the course of the battle! And now here is Miko, telling him she is going to monitor and control him even more tightly in the future?

This is intolerable to Roy. He will no more let Miko dictate the course of his life than he would let his own father do it! And so, he allows the anger and guilt and frustration he feels to rise to the surface, and lashes out at the most immediate source of his frustration, which is, of course, Miko. He insults her, and for this he recieves the strong moral support of most of the other members of the Order. The strong support he gets from his team mates reassures Roy that he is doing the right thing by denouncing Miko, and he raises the stakes even higher, by insisting that they will not allow themselves to be tried by Miko's Lord. Roy proudly declares that he is a free man, an assertion he probably made to his father, when he insisted on the right to become the intellectual fighter and leader he is today.

Of course, this refusal by Roy to be judged by her Lord forces Miko's hand, and the fight between Miko and the Order begins immediately thereafter. The fight is especially tragic, because just for a second, when Roy first apologized to Miko, it looked like Miko and Roy might be on the verge of a breakthough that might have resulted in both the Order and Miko gaining a better and more compassionate understanding of each other. But tragically, that didn't happen, and both sides are the worse for it.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I don't hate Miko. Nor do I like her. I feel she needs a boot to her bum, and still do.


She confronts the Order, and demands they surrender. The leader refuses,
No he did not. His exact words 'We're not surrendering without a little...' but she doesn't even let him finish his sentence. He was very likely going to continue with 'explanation' or something to that affect. Who knows, she didn't let him finish.

Kinda similiar to what you acuse Roy of 'rudely' doing later:
" For example, when he asks Miko her name, he rudely cuts her off before she can name her father."

Except that the former could have been a life and death situation, which overules mere rudeness. He then did in fact begin to show interest about her past.


Miko asks herself, why does he wear a powerful Evil object like that? This is suspicious.
Except it was explained to her, and proven that Roy was not in fact evil by her own methods. He indeed appeared to be quite lawful (accepting the sentencing)


Unlike the members of any other character class, if a Paladin violates the Higher Law of the Gods, they are instantly punished by the loss of their abilities.
So are those who aren't allowed to sleep or meditate. Just thought I might point that out ;)


Does she know that Belkar, Haley and the Elf V are ready to kill her in order to avoid being arrested?
Well, the Order definetely know that she's willing to kill to keep them from being free. They don't know anything about her Lord, and for all they know they could be going to be judged and die because of the accident of one of their fellows. She's also not a legit law enforcer, but someone from far, far away. With all these unknowns, except for the fact they know they must go or die, only to maybe die later... many folks would fight to keep that from happening, whether they were innocent or not.


She assumes, based on the customs of ther own culture, that since the members of the Order of the Stick have accepted that they are her prisioners, they are obligated to follow her orders in battle.
Really? That sounds unlikely. You are forcibly taking prisoners somewhere they do not wish to go and now they are obligated to fight on the behalf of anyone you wish? And what if your talents lie in, say, magic? How can they give aid if they aren't allowed rest?


Roy accuses her of not following the tenets of Good. Miko knows that this accusation is false.
I dunno, attacking folks without giving them any explanation based on hearsay doesn't sound too good. She's also been very clear on the point that she'd kill evil-aligned folks on sight without compuncture, despite that mercy is a tenet of good. She's been bossy, arrogant (at least as much as any other member of the OOTS), rude, unforgiving, and downright hostile... basically everything the others have been accused of.


Good write up and all, but theres also a bit of it is purely an assumption from which points are made under the continuing assumption that the original one was legit.

[Kadi]

Ah, but you're forgetting...it's a good thing to cruelly rob others of their freedom and dignity as long as you think you have a good excuse to.

[Doshi]

Vorpal Tribble (Nice name, by the way) is it really that hard to understand why Miko wasn't willing to wait while Roy lists the conditions under which he might possibly consider surrendering? She was outnumbered by a party whose leader registered as being strongly Evil. She knows her Lord's Diviners have specifically accused this party of damaging the very fabric of Reality. She knows she has personally questioned others about the actions of this party, and has been told stories that strongly indicate to her that they have committed many acts of Evil. She probably knows that the elven spellcaster in the party has powerful spells that could kill her. She knows another member of the party has a bow. She knows she has a momentary advantage over the party, because she has taken them by surprise. She knows that with every moment that passes, this advantage decreases, and the chances that she will be able to defeat the party correspondingly decrease. She offers the party a chance to surrender, and its leader refuses. He starts to say something else, and she does not know if he is lying, or stalling for time, or making some demand of his own. But the fact that he registers as strongly Evil means she is unwilling to wait while his party recovers its wits, and gets ready to try and kill her. So she immediately starts the fight.

After she has learned that Smlte Evil does not work on Roy, Miko is willing to consider the possibility that Roy is not Evil. She learns that Roy is carrying a powerful Eviil artifact that alters his aura. Roy does not give her any clear explaination for why he is carrying this object of Evil. He does not say anythng like, "I need it to destroy a greater Evil", or "I need to take it somewhere where it can be destroyed," or even "It's very valuable and I plan to sell it," So why is he carrying this powerful Evil object? He doesn't ever say. What is Miko supposed to think about this?
Ask yourself this, Vorpal Tribble, is carrying around a powerful magic object formerly owned by a Lich really a smart idea? Does Roy have even the slightest idea what effect that crown may have upon him? Quite a few people on this board have said they think Roy may be making a big mistake by doing this. When Roy refused to help rescue Elan from the bandits, some people wondered if the crown was altering Roy's alignment, and making him more Evil. It's even possible that we will eventually learn that Xykon is influencing Roy's mind through the crown. Perhaps that's the real reason Roy just picked this fight with Miko. So is it really so unreasonable that Miko would worry about why Roy is keeping that crown?

As a Paladin, Miko has spent her life being judged by a critic far more rigorous than Roy Greenhilt. Every act she takes is judged and evaluated. If she fails to act ethically, if she violates the Laws of Good, she immediately loses the powers that the Gods grant to Paladins. Miko has far less room for self delusion than most people, either in the real world, or in the fictional worlds of D&D. If she offends the Gods that judge her, she no longer has a mount to ride, or the ability to magically heal. And at the end of episode 151, when we last see Miko, she still has her magical horse. This is solid proof that, whatever Roy and the other members of the Order think to the contrary, she has not yet failed to live up to the standards demanded of all Paladins.

[Marller]

Generally speaking, I don't quite know where I stand on objective vs. subjective morality. But I notice that it's usually the types of people shrieking the loudest in favor of law (which, to me, implies a generally absolutist view of morality) are the ones who are trying to nuance Miko's and "Lord" Shojo's actions. Okay, maybe "nuance" isn't the right word, but do you get what I mean?
Of course and all i, at least, want to say is that she doesn't know it any better and that Miko and the order are equally to be faulted.
It's like two parties meet for a game. Both parties played for a very long time with their own houserules and the thought doesn't even cross their minds that the other party might not know their rules and begin to play and both parties are confused at the way the other plays.
Both parties were too arrogant, too sure of their own ways. None of them ever asks why (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=223) she thinks this is the way to treat prisoners who follow willingly. All they do is lecturing (of the order at least V with his "invoice") and feeling pushed around by Miko.

At least Durkon gets a significant better treatment than the others (and he is a prisoner too by Miko's standards) but again they never ask why. We can only guess why Miko behaves this way towards the order, the only time she makes a statement about it is in the strip i linked and it doesn't explain everything. I just think that Doshi pictures it pretty good what MIGHT go on in Mikos head.
To change a quote from V: "they are slamming their heads into the brick wall of cultural differences". And they sure feel the pain.

I think Roy is normally sensible enough to ask such questions but he has an excuse, 99% of his brain was occupied with picturing Miko without clothes and the remaining 1% tried to talk her into taking them off. He suppresses his discomfort and after the horniness went away nothing held back his accumulated anger and he makes a pretty much final cut in support of almost the entire order. And now they practice their bondage skills.

I hope i'm understandable, english is not my native language.

[abc.d]

Very nice story indeed, but it doesn't change the fact I can't stand the arrogant bitch. (she already died in my windows paint) ;x

[Alfryd]

With enough story-telling talent, one can even paint the Linear Guild as the protagonists.
I would like to see this. No, really, I would. Seriously!


Because of this, and because she is angry about the harm done to innocents, she lectures the Order...
I think the not inconsequential danger to herself was also a factor.
She must have been relatively well-disposed toward Roy, though. How do I know this?
In panel 14 of 250, the ice queen actually smiles.
This is almost unprecedented. The only previous occasion I can recall is when Belkar walks into her room and declares, "Oh, poor little me, I seem to have forgotten my lead sheet." Which raises the question- was that a smile of "Ah, so, he can't be evil after all then. And he's come to prove it for the sake of establishing mutual trust!" -or a smile of relish at the thought of finally gutting him like a suckling pig. Mmm. We'll never know.
Anyway, after Roy's rejection, she really does look quite downhearted/stunned. Maybe it's just the insult, but one has to wonder...


Roy did this because he wanted to prove to himself and to the others that his planning abiliities were superior to those of Miko.
I believe it is likely he didn't want Miko getting wind of his recent 'role-playing' also. He didn't need to prove anything to the others.

He failed to calculate all the variables, and to control the course of the battle!
I doubt anyone can fully account for Belkar.

No he did not. His exact words 'We're not surrendering without a little...' but she doesn't even let him finish his sentence...
Certainly a tad short, but if it was the linear guild, you wouldn't be disposed to give read the charges in detail while their caster readies shield, haste, or, say, disintegrate.

Really? That sounds unlikely. You are forcibly taking prisoners somewhere they do not wish to go and now they are obligated to fight on the behalf of anyone you wish? And what if your talents lie in, say, magic? How can they give aid if they aren't allowed rest?
Apparently, these rules apply where she comes from. She does allow for rest, just after a good 10-12 hours' forced march. It builds character!


I dunno, attacking folks without giving them any explanation based on hearsay doesn't sound too good.
I wouldn't equate first-person victim interviews with 'hearsay'.


She's also been very clear on the point that she'd kill evil-aligned folks on sight without compuncture, despite that mercy is a tenet of good.
I don't think that's stated anywhere. She believed Roy to be evil, but offered him a fair chance of surrender. Smiting evil is also a fairly basic tenet of good.


This is solid proof that, whatever Roy and the other members of the Order think to the contrary, she has not yet failed to live up to the standards demanded of all Paladins.
At least in Rich Burlewe's eyes. The question is whether this is reasonably consistent with the game mechanics.

[Sylian]

When you put it in that way, even I think more of Miko.

Perhaps she just treats some of them bad because they are her prisioners, or perhaps because they treat her bad.

[DireRedShark]

Wow - great opinion and very well-formulated.

However, I still have to agree with Roy that Miko is a "mean socially inept bully who hides behind her badge and her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to treat other people like crap." Yelling at people for removed mattress tags, snapping at Elan for innocent class questions, only addressing Vaarsuvius as elf and expecting them to follow all her orders blindly. Roy asks her to show them some respect and she ignores him, refusing to even allow she may change her opinion before.

The key factor here is control - Miko automatically assumes what she does is correct based on her samurai title and training and orders from Lord Shojo, and to hell with what the OOTS wants. None of the order - a free-spirited rogue, a homocidal halfling and an ancient wizard especially - want some random stranger placing them under arrest and placing totalitarian restrictions on them, and Miko is ridiculously arrogant to believe she has this right. Granted, her training and insular life may let her feel this is normal, but it takes only common sense to tell you how much power you can have over someone.

I don't think she's always wrong, but she definitely needs to soak her head in ice water for a minute and see how much tension she's building through this. I can't wait to see if anyone can reason with her on this.

[Hoseki]

FINALLY! I thought I was the only Miko sympathizer out here. I had to force myself bodily to not flame the 'Miko is a Bitch' threads. It's nice to see that I am not alone.

[Duraska]

Indeed, you are not alone. Unfortunately for me, I *have* flamed some of the anti-Miko threads. But hey, it's a Paladin's duty to hunt down and destroy evil, right?

All must live by the acronym: WWMD?

(I think you can figure it out) :)

[Vampire_Boy]

Indeed, you are not alone. Unfortunately for me, I *have* flamed some of the anti-Miko threads. But hey, it's a Paladin's duty to hunt down and destroy evil, right?


Yes, and it's also a paladin's duty to be snotty, arrogant, overbearing, treat other people like crap because they are 'better than the rest' and so on and so forth.

It's no longer a paladin's duty to be a role-model, to set an example of how to behave. The duty is to just smite everything that beeps Evil and flame everyone who dares question whether that is at all paladinic.

Right.

[lunar]

Nitpicky points of contention. 1) Samurai is a title of nobility, not something you can earn. 2) If you've ever read the Heike, it'd be fairly obvious that the idea of samurai being ruled by some sort of rigid honor system was an invention of a later, peaceful time.

It's true that Bushido was articulated in the Tokugawa era. Even when not written down as a set of tennets the samurai's honor system and sense of duty has always been very rigid, even moreso than most other nobles. This is something you would know if you had read Heike.
Yes, in the time of Heike you could not earn the title of Samurai. However, this was certainly not universally true in the Azuchi-momoyama period, where even slaves were promoted to commanders during the course of their lifetime by showing prowess in battle. These instances were rare, but again we are nitpicking.

[Ilover_Juventad]

It's no longer a paladin's duty to be a role-model, to set an example of how to behave. The duty is to just smite everything that beeps Evil and flame everyone who dares question whether that is at all paladinic.

Right.

Psh, boyscouts. In my day we all served King Richard and got them bloody Seljuks!

[Vampire_Boy]

Psh, boyscouts. In my day we all served King Richard and got them bloody Seljuks!

And did you also call yourselves... paladins?

[Ebon_Drake]

It's no longer a paladin's duty to be a role-model, to set an example of how to behave. The duty is to just smite everything that beeps Evil and flame everyone who dares question whether that is at all paladinic.
Right.
I wouldn't say that she doesn't try to be a role model to the OOTS, it's just that her method of doing so involves giving (admittedly rather harsh) speeches about avoiding vices and so forth, probably, as has been mentioned several times, as a result of her cloistered background. She's used to authority figures preaching to her on such matters and had the Paladin Code drummed into her and, now she's in a position of authority, she's doing the same. It's just part of her being a joke on the stereotypical paladin who's always making other players conform to his or her belief system. As Roy said, Miko's class requires not only her to stay Lawful Good, but her party as well, so its natural for her to be trying to make them be so.

[Amalthea]

As Roy said, Miko's class requires not only her to stay Lawful Good, but her party as well, so its natural for her to be trying to make them be so.
No, a paladin may adventure with characters of any non evil alignment. A paladin's henchmen/cohorts/ect. must be lawful good.
A paladin may not knowingly associate with an evil character, and will not associate with a character that offends their moral code.

NONE of these applies to the OotS, because the OotS are prisoners in her charge. They are not her associates, comrades, or henchmen.

[Kalbereth]

I still think she's within her rights to treat them somewhat as she has. For all her knowledge, most of them (especially Haley and Belkar) are fairly proven as evil and/or criminals. She doesn't treat them with respect because she was not raised to believe they deserved respect. As so many have said before - she is acting within the confines of her culture, her training, and her former life. If we get to Lord Shojo and she's alone, then we have a problem. But until then, she's behaving admirably in many situations (though her speech-giving and attempts to force them to her moral code are a bit beyond the call of duty)

As far as the mattress thing...it was a joke. You cannot possibly be taking that as seriously as the rest of the comic (which, remember, is a comic)

I'm still a Miko supporter however.

[powner]

I alway loved Miko, but alot of my favorite Giantitp characters get made fun of... Elan, Roy and Miko.

[Talyn]

Doshi, you are seriously my favorite person right now. Thanks for posting this.

That is all.

[mockingbyrd7]

Wow, that made me look from a totally different perspective. Thanks, doshi.

[mockingbyrd7]

Indeed, you are not alone. Unfortunately for me, I *have* flamed some of the anti-Miko threads. But hey, it's a Paladin's duty to hunt down and destroy evil, right?

All must live by the acronym: WWMD?

(I think you can figure it out) :)

Actually, you are wrong. If everybody would follow, "WWMD," the world would combust because there would be no more evil people to go after, and Miko pretty much lives to hunt down and eradicate evil. Whether she wants to believe it or not, the very existence of evil itself is mandatory to her life. :biggrin:

[Golt]

Doshi, you've done a really great job with this. This really does show how relative the *right* and the *wrong* really is. Congrats.

Any chances of updating the first post?:smallbiggrin:

[vbushido]

Another nitpicky thing, but not directed toward your excellent defense of Miko.

Miko does, indeed, represent the law where she comes from, but, under what jurisdictional power comes her ability to cross borders and arrest people who broke a super-natural law in an area where Azurites have no power (insofar as we know)? Coming out of the blue (no pun intended), calling a group criminals, and saying saying they deserve to die and she's more than willing to carry out the sentence outside of her jurisdiction strikes me as presumptuous. They didn't refuse to go with her; they didn't get the chance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) Roy was starting to say, "We won't say yes until you say why we're being arrested," but she didn't let him finish the sentence. She reminds me of Judge Dredd, who strikes me more as a Justiciar than a Paladin.

-----

So many books, so little time/money/shelf space

[Alfryd]

Roy was starting to say, "We won't say yes until you say why we're being arrested," but she didn't let him finish the sentence.
Yes, but Miko was rather under the impression that the OotS knew perfectly well why they might be under arrest, having confused them with... *sigh*... an unlikely conspiracy of evil twins. They might, however, have used the delay to cast Protection from Good, Hold Person, or, say, Disintegrate.

Thread necromancy?

[theKOT]

Another nitpicky thing, but not directed toward your excellent defense of Miko.

Miko does, indeed, represent the law where she comes from, but, under what jurisdictional power comes her ability to cross borders and arrest people who broke a super-natural law in an area where Azurites have no power (insofar as we know)? Coming out of the blue (no pun intended), calling a group criminals, and saying saying they deserve to die and she's more than willing to carry out the sentence outside of her jurisdiction strikes me as presumptuous. They didn't refuse to go with her; they didn't get the chance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) Roy was starting to say, "We won't say yes until you say why we're being arrested," but she didn't let him finish the sentence. She reminds me of Judge Dredd, who strikes me more as a Justiciar than a Paladin.

Oh you. You obviously haven't seen this quote of the Giant's:


It's also interesting that everyone thinks Miko captured the OOTSers in another nation, rather than the lawless region just outside Wooden Forest, and that she is somehow breaking the law of the Kingdom of Somewhere when she just personally saved the king from a burning building. Generally, in an absolute monarchy, saving the king's life gives you a free pass to do whatever you want. The fact that the only thing Miko does with that freedom is enforce her Lord's will is about as Lawful as you can get.
So yeah that clears up the legality of it.



Thread necromancy?
Who cares? It was relevant to a current discussion, and it's a miko thread. All Miko threads should be necroed* and all new threads should be about Miko.

*theKOT does not endorse thread necromancy or spamming. Please do niether.