Druidic Avenger

[Biggus]

A player I'm DMing for who's playing a Druid (currently 19th level) has said they may want to trade in their animal companion for an ACF. Most of them just trade it for a different type of creature; the Druidic Avenger variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) from UA is pretty much the only one that gives you something completely different.

The problem is, it's terrible. You give up your animal companion and your spontaneous summoning ability in exchange for the ability to rage like a Barbarian. You only get the basic rage, not greater or mighty rage. You do get tireless rage and fast movement but overall it's a very poor trade.

So I'm looking to improve it. I'm thinking of adding in greater/mighty rage and indomitable will, but it still seems weak compared to what you're losing. I thought of removing the "lose spontaneous summoning" part as well but I thought that might tip it the other way too much. Any thoughts about what would be a balanced way to handle this?

[Morphic tide]

Hmm... I'd suggest giving the DR X/- and Trap Sense or Uncanny Dodge. Leave the actual Barbarian something, even if a full Barbarian/Druidic Avenger gestalt is still less broadly capable than a standard Druid. The spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally is incredibly awkward to normal play, and is exactly where the campaign-wrecking properties of Tier 1 kick in. If a player is taking Druidic Avenger, they want to be a no-questions-asked beatstick, and anyone caring about maximum throughput is barely going to care about that.

This situation is one of the cases where the DMG's suggestion to make up PRCs suitable to the player comes in. 19th level is far too late to be doing even that, and there's a reason changes like this are supposed to involve massive plot-fiat.

[liquidformat]

Honestly removing the loss of spontaneously casting summoning spells won't have much of an impact. The real issue with Druidic Avenger is raging doesn't work with casting, I am also uncertain if you can wild shape while raging. So typically that means you focus your spells on buffing up before fights or the first rounds of the fight and then wild shape before raging and smashing face. You are taking away a lot of your flexibility in fights by raging and not getting that much in return even with full progression of rage.

Maybe add the ability to cast spells while raging #/day or #/encounter, adding that would be a reasonable trade for your spontaneous casting. You could even have the caveat that you can only cast spells that cause damage while raging.


The spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally is incredibly awkward to normal play, and is exactly where the campaign-wrecking properties of Tier 1 kick in.

No no it isn't not at all. If you removed druid's ability to spontaneous summon it would still be a Tier 1 class, heck it would still be top of tier 1. The ability to cast spells, with a huge and powerful spell list, wild shape, and have an animal companion is what makes druids a top tier 1 class. If you didn't have access to Nature Spell or Surrogate spellcasting; or Nature spell was turned into a metamagic feat that increased spell levels druid would probably be tier 2; a druid without spell casting would be upper tier 3.

[lylsyly]

At our table you would get the various rages and the rages per day just for the AC and keep your spontaneous summoning. Howeveer you also could not cast while raging unless you took the right feats to go with it.

I do have one ? though. Why on earth do this at 19th level?

[ayvango]

A player I'm DMing for who's playing a Druid (currently 19th level) has said they may want to trade in their animal companion for an ACF.
I suppose the player become tired of extra bookkeeping for separate creature. So he wants to trade irritating class feature for any other. I would suggest to give him spirit guide from the spirit shaman base class instead. Spirit guide is a weak class feature so you could compensate it giving extra bonus as it was a familiar. Like skill check bonus or hit points bonus. It would still be less powerful than a companion, but it would save from bookkeeping and add some useful feature instead.

[Biggus]

or Nature spell was turned into a metamagic feat that increased spell levels druid would probably be tier 2

We do play with this houserule, Natural Spell is a +1 level metamagic feat (the other tier 1's have had their cheese toned down somewhat too).


At our table you would get the various rages and the rages per day just for the AC and keep your spontaneous summoning. Howeveer you also could not cast while raging unless you took the right feats to go with it.

Interesting, thank you. And yes, I don't allow casting in rage unless you take feats for it.



This situation is one of the cases where the DMG's suggestion to make up PRCs suitable to the player comes in. 19th level is far too late to be doing even that, and there's a reason changes like this are supposed to involve massive plot-fiat.


I do have one ? though. Why on earth do this at 19th level?


I suppose the player become tired of extra bookkeeping for separate creature. So he wants to trade irritating class feature for any other. I would suggest to give him spirit guide from the spirit shaman base class instead. Spirit guide is a weak class feature so you could compensate it giving extra bonus as it was a familiar. Like skill check bonus or hit points bonus. It would still be less powerful than a companion, but it would save from bookkeeping and add some useful feature instead.

It's partly the extra complexity (he's relatively new to the game and nearly quit playing a Druid altogether because the vast choice of spells was making his head spin) and partly because his animal companion is becoming something of a liability in combat (he's had the same one, a black bear, since level 5). My players tend to get quite attached to their animals and feel they have a duty not to recklessly endanger them; they very much don't treat them as a disposable resource as some people do. I did suggest setting him free and getting a new one from the higher-level lists, but he wanted to know if there were any other alternatives before he decided.

As for why at level 19, the game in going on indefinitely into epic levels, so it's not a last-minute thing, this is a decision with long-term implications. I allow players one (and only one) rebuild in their careers, if he chose to swap to Druidic Avenger this would be his.

[ciopo]

How much does he use wild shape and does he "hate" the freeform of picking from the monster manuals? If choosing spells make his head spin I would think he might have similar problems with the wild shape?

If so, I really like the PHBII shapeshift variant, maybe that's to his taste?


Is it you that's looking at what's available because he asked if he could get rid of the animal companion, or was it him itwelf that proposed druidic avenger?


How do you feel about the various ACF that exchange the familiar for this or that effect? Adapting those to work for druid amd animal companion instead is not that far fetched

[remetagross]

Hmmm yeah the fact Raging prevents the Druid from casting anything is a big, big issue of that ACF. Since it otherwise sucks, it would not seem overpowered to me to allow the PC to still get to cast spells while raging. Maybe (if he has Natural Spell) you could fluff that as being in touch with one's inner savagery, and the PC is allowed to cast spells during a rage only if he is Wild Shaped?

[AsuraKyoko]

If he's also finding the large spell selection confusing, would he be interested in rebuilding for Master of Many Forms? I can see it combining pretty well with Druidic Avenger, and it's a pretty cool class in general.

[lylsyly]

So the spells spin his head and the many wildshape forms do not? If that is true perhaps there is an alternative! Let him rebuild into a wildshape mytic ranger. Still gets the full wildshape benefits and the spell list is far less daunting (but still has some golden spells on there). It's just a thought. Plus the mystic ranger favored enemy bonuses would also stack with his raging making him even better at melee.

[Troacctid]

Just buy a torc of lucid rage and you'll be fine.

[lylsyly]

So the spells spin his head and the many wildshape forms do not? If that is true perhaps there is an alternative! Let him rebuild into a wildshape mytic ranger. Still gets the full wildshape benefits and the spell list is far less daunting (but still has some golden spells on there). It's just a thought. Plus the mystic ranger favored enemy bonuses would also stack with his raging making him even better at melee.

I forgot that ranger wildshape variant was limited to small medium animals only until someone pm'ed me :-( so forget that. makes master of many forms sound much better ;-)

[Endarire]

What specifically does this player (not) want? Ask him!

Since we're in homebrew territory, making a variant specifically for him or having him play a different character/radically different build would likely work better.

[Biggus]

Just buy a torc of lucid rage and you'll be fine.

Never heard of this one before. Is it just me or does it seem a bit underpriced? 9,000GP to negate all the negative effects of raging?

[Darg]

Hmmm yeah the fact Raging prevents the Druid from casting anything is a big, big issue of that ACF. Since it otherwise sucks, it would not seem overpowered to me to allow the PC to still get to cast spells while raging. Maybe (if he has Natural Spell) you could fluff that as being in touch with one's inner savagery, and the PC is allowed to cast spells during a rage only if he is Wild Shaped?

I don't see it as a problem. You're only going to be raging while attacking and it combo's quite well with some of the wild feats. All it does is prevent you from casting when you wouldn't normally be casting anyway. You are just giving up a slight amount of niche versatility (only had if you have natural spell or you are out of wild shape) to be stronger at something you normally do. It's not like it works as a frenzied berserker's frenzy. The true negative is giving up your companion, though it does free you to spend some more gp on yourself (OP might want to take that into account when adjudicating the ACF)


Never heard of this one before. Is it just me or does it seem a bit underpriced? 9,000GP to negate all the negative effects of raging?

Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Any class would love to get their hands on a 9000gp item that negates any penalties that class features have. Monk AC/movement/flurry in heavy armor any one?

It sounds like they simply don't want to be a druid any more (core+ spell lists can get quite excessive). If that isn't the case, I'd suggest sitting down/talking with the group and maybe come up with streamlined spell list for them so they aren't so overwhelmed. At level 19, even a black bear shouldn't have to be a hindrance with the spells available to make the 2-3 missing HD basically meaningless. Animal shapes allows you to change the bear into a more statistically superior variant. Greater magic fang + Nature's favor + nature's avatar can turn the druid/companion into shredders (especially if you pick up improved multiattack and improved unarmed strike). A personal favorite of mine is Jaws of the moray from stormwrack.

Anyway, the biggest hit the ACF gives is the loss of the animal companion. At this stage in the game I simply would give the ACF as is but allow them to keep their animal companion. It would be a pain to renegotiate WBL spent on the companion and personally I don't think the companion loss is fair for what you gain. At worst, them being unable to command their companion for the duration of the rage would have been enough compensation in my eyes.

[Chronicled]

A player I'm DMing for who's playing a Druid (currently 19th level) has said they may want to trade in their animal companion for an ACF. Most of them just trade it for a different type of creature; the Druidic Avenger variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) from UA is pretty much the only one that gives you something completely different.

The problem is, it's terrible. You give up your animal companion and your spontaneous summoning ability in exchange for the ability to rage like a Barbarian. You only get the basic rage, not greater or mighty rage. You do get tireless rage and fast movement but overall it's a very poor trade.

So I'm looking to improve it. I'm thinking of adding in greater/mighty rage and indomitable will, but it still seems weak compared to what you're losing. I thought of removing the "lose spontaneous summoning" part as well but I thought that might tip it the other way too much. Any thoughts about what would be a balanced way to handle this?

What are the other classes in the group? The druid going down in power some might not be so awful if it's just bringing them in line with the rest.

[RandomPeasant]

Never heard of this one before. Is it just me or does it seem a bit underpriced? 9,000GP to negate all the negative effects of raging?

That depends on how important you think the negative effects of raging are from a balance perspective. Most of it is just fluff stuff. The "no spells" restriction matters, but a Barbarian/Caster is pretty much required to buy it, so whatever it costs is basically just a tax.

[Biggus]

What are the other classes in the group? The druid going down in power some might not be so awful if it's just bringing them in line with the rest.

The Druid doesn't attack that much themselves, they're more of a support character (buffer/healer/utility spellcaster) so that's not really a problem.


That depends on how important you think the negative effects of raging are from a balance perspective. Most of it is just fluff stuff. The "no spells" restriction matters, but a Barbarian/Caster is pretty much required to buy it, so whatever it costs is basically just a tax.

Not necessarily, there's also the Rage Casting feat. They're going to want to full attack most rounds when in rage so only being able to cast swift/immediate action spells (I've updated it to 3.5) isn't a huge loss.

At 9,000GP it's vastly better than spending a feat slot, if it were substantially more than that not necessarily.

[Tag365]

Can anyone explain what "WBL" stands for? I haven't heard of it before today and I can't get the context for it after searching online for what it is supposed to mean.

Actually I just found a post stating that used the term "Wealth by level" and it seems relevant to the abbreviation, is this correct?

[remetagross]

That is exactly that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Can anyone explain what "WBL" stands for? I haven't heard of it before today and I can't get the context for it after searching online for what it is supposed to mean.

Actually I just found a post stating that used the term "Wealth by level" and it seems relevant to the abbreviation, is this correct?

Yes, it's refering to the "character wealth by level" table on p.135 of the DMG.
Basically how much value in magical gear the game expects you to have at any given level to keep up with encounter difficulty.

[Maat Mons]

Hmm, so the player doesn't want an Animal Companion... And he "doesn't attack that much," which makes Wild Shape less useful... Yeah, I can see why he'd be thinking Druid wasn't the best fit.

Anyway, if he isn't very interested in melee, I don't think Rage should even be a consideration. Maybe you should borrow an idea from Pathfinder, and let him gain access to a Domain instead of acquiring an Animal Companion.

Or, depending on how much he's actually using Wild Shape, consider backporting the Halcyon Druid archetype, which not only replaces Animal Companion, but also gives up Wild Shape for the ability to pick some Wizard spells and add them to his spell list.

Backporting Shaman would be another option, but then you'd have to figure out what its spell list becomes in 3.5.

[Biggus]

Or, depending on how much he's actually using Wild Shape, consider backporting the Halcyon Druid archetype, which not only replaces Animal Companion, but also gives up Wild Shape for the ability to pick some Wizard spells and add them to his spell list.

Backporting Shaman would be another option, but then you'd have to figure out what its spell list becomes in 3.5.

Are these from Pathfinder?

[Maat Mons]

Yes.

Halcyon Druid (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/halcyon-druid-druid-archetype/)
Shaman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/)