[3.5] Haste, Greater

[Thurbane]

So, just wondering.

IIRC, 3.0 haste granted an extra Standard Action per round, instead of just adding an extra attack on a Full Attack action.

If you spell researched or homebrewed a Greater Haste variant spell that did that in 3.5, what level spell would you peg that as? It's a pretty significant power boost (especially for casters).

For this thread, assume the theoretical Greater Haste functions in all ways as 3.5 Haste, with the sole exception that it grants an extra Standard Action each round, instead of an extra attack on a Full Attack action.

Not sure if this belongs here or in Homebrew, sorry.

Cheers - T

[Ramza00]

If you take the Initiate of Bane there is fabulous 5th level Cleric spell Battletide which is a time manipulation / greater haste spell that requires 1 enemy to fail its Will Save (but since it targets 1 enemy per cl in a 30-ft burst that is easy.)

I am not saying this is priced correctly, but it is definitely worth taking.

[Zanos]

I'd compare to schism which:

is 4th level
is restricted to telepaths
is personal
actions must be purely mental(but frankly, irrelevant for psions)
actions take a -6 level penalty


I think not being personal is worth +1. Not being ranged and having multiple targets is probably worth another +1. Not being restricted to a specific subdiscipline is probably worth another +1. And not having a -6 penalty to character level for the additional actions is probably another +1. That puts us at 8th level for greater haste, which sounds about right. Although frankly, a party buff that grants additional actions is such a no brainer to cast that you could make it a 9th and it would still be cast in almost every fight.


If you take the Initiate of Bane there is fabulous 5th level Cleric spell Battletide which is a time manipulation / greater haste spell that requires 1 enemy to fail its Will Save (but since it targets 1 enemy per cl in a 30-ft burst that is easy.)

I am not saying this is priced correctly, but it is definitely worth taking.
It's a good spell, but it doesn't actually grant additional actions. It gives you the benefits of haste and lets you cast a CL scaling quickened spell, up to a 5th.

[Endarire]

Giving your entire party an extra standard action per round is tremendous! That's probably at least a level 8 spell in terms of worth!

[Ramza00]

It's a good spell, but it doesn't actually grant additional actions. It gives you the benefits of haste and lets you cast a CL scaling quickened spell, up to a 5th.

Yes, technically it is like a quicked metamagic rod that scales based on caster level. Or one can compare it to schism.

Plus -2 to your enemies in most but not all things is a nice debuff. And the other benefits of haste with the speed and dodge bonus. Gotta lose 1 thing which is you can get 1 extra weapon attack or the free quicken effect but not both I guess. *shrug*

[Beni-Kujaku]

Even as a self-buff like in 3.0, I'd say that's at least a 6th or 7th level spell. If it affects the whole party, it's honestly on the level of time stop or greater, just as an immediate payoff and without the restrictions, so 9th level spell in my opinion.

[Zarvistic]

I would consider it 9th or epic. You can target yourself too with it, costing you no actions on the turn you cast it and then giving you and the party extra actions for rest of the fight.

[flappeercraft]

Easily should be 8th or 9th level for the absolute shattering of the action economy.

[AvatarVecna]

Celerity is a lvl 4 spell that gives a single person an extra turn now, but then no-chance-to-resist dazes them for 1 round after. It's essentially just frontloading a single action by a single round for a single, and it's a lvl 4 spell. And it's considered pretty powerful.

Time Stop gives one person 2-5 extra turns right now, which you can't use to affect anybody else in any way. It's an extremely useful 9th lvl spell.

There is a feat (Action Surge) that lets you spend 2 action points for an extra move or standard action this turn. There is a spell (Unfettered Heroism) that gives you 1 action point per round for 1 round per level. If you have the feat, that 5th lvl spell is giving a single person an extra action every other turn. This is probably our best point of comparison. If we're being totally fair, giving action points is different from giving actions, since you can do other things with action points. But also it requires a feat to give actions, so let's do that tradeoff: it only gives an action, instead of action points, but it doesn't require a feat. Chain spell is +3 and can apply single target buff to a group. Repeat Spell is +3 and casts a spell again the round after it was initially cast (which would change the "every other turn" to "every turn"). Let's say we consider both of these to be slightly overpriced, and that +2 is more fair for both of them. That would make this a 9th lvl spell.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'd compare to schism which:

is 4th level
is restricted to telepaths
is personal
actions must be purely mental(but frankly, irrelevant for psions)
actions take a -6 level penalty


I think not being personal is worth +1. Not being ranged and having multiple targets is probably worth another +1. Not being restricted to a specific subdiscipline is probably worth another +1. And not having a -6 penalty to character level for the additional actions is probably another +1. That puts us at 8th level for greater haste, which sounds about right. Although frankly, a party buff that grants additional actions is such a no brainer to cast that you could make it a 9th and it would still be cast in almost every fight.


It's a good spell, but it doesn't actually grant additional actions. It gives you the benefits of haste and lets you cast a CL scaling quickened spell, up to a 5th.


Giving your entire party an extra standard action per round is tremendous! That's probably at least a level 8 spell in terms of worth!

Minor note here, but 3.0 haste was a single target spell, so the caster was spending an action to give one party member a bonus standard action, a +4 Dodge bonus to AC, and +50% movement to all modes as an enhancement bonus (typically, 10 or 15 ft.). So using Zanos' assessment above, that would put it at about a 7th level spell.

[Kaleph]

The spell seems like a significatly more powerful version of arcane surge, and arcane surge is a powerful 7th level spell. Greater haste would give you the chance of casting two spells/round (or one spell and another standard action, for added flexibility), without spending a swift action and without need for the spontaneous invisible spell trick. Plus, it's chained. I'd say it's epic.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Minor note here, but 3.0 haste was a single target spell, so the caster was spending an action to give one party member a bonus standard action, a +4 Dodge bonus to AC, and +50% movement to all modes as an enhancement bonus (typically, 10 or 15 ft.). So using Zanos' assessment above, that would put it at about a 7th level spell.

Yes, and 3.0 Haste was vastly overpowered for its level, to the point that they needed to nerf it in 3.5, that they explicitly mentioned it as the base strategy of some epic monsters (notably the nightshades) and that they felt the need to put it as an SLA on most high-level monsters, just to even the odds a bit. 3.0 Haste was just an aberration that should never have been and especially not at 3rd level, and some even argued that one of the main reasons they even made a 3.5 was to fix it.

Also, going from single target to multiple targets is generally worth 3 to 4 more spell level in D&D. Just look at all the "mass something" that exist.

[ericgrau]

Seems on par with epic stuff, even at self only. You could lower it if you are balancing it against shennanigans, but that's dubious.

[RandomPeasant]

3.0 haste was a little weird. You didn't really want to cast it at 5th level, because you didn't have enough spell slots to justify throwing away a 3rd level one to let you throw the rest out faster. When you did start using it, it didn't really make you that much better than the rest of the party, because they all went out and got things like Boots of Speed to access it too. It did make the party way better against monsters though.

I would say 9th level is probably fine. You can cash in a 9th level spell slot to win an encounter (weird, wail of the banshee), to break the game (gate, shapechange), or to do almost anything (wish). Cashing one in to make your side substantially better seems fine. Maybe make it a full-round action so that it puts you down an action the turn you cast it (if you do that, a single-target version is probably okay at 8th).

[Seward]

Basically with Random Peasant on this one.

It's a less restricted form of time stop but doesn't frontload the actions as heavily. In practice most pre-epic fights don't last more than 2-5 rounds anyway. Maybe have something that doesn't let you carry it between encounters (round/level is pretty long at level 18, I've had haste carry us through a lot of encounters at level 15), or just give it a fixed number of rounds for effect (say 5, or 1 minute duration like Divine Favor)

I think it should be single target though, Time Stop doesn't break the action economy for your whole team, just for you. I'm ok with it not being personal but shouldn't be "1 creature per level in 30'" without going epic. If you want to create a greater rod of chain spell to get it on your party (or somehow have -3 to metamagic modifiers+chain spell), I'm cool with that, so maybe a close range spell, not requiring touch. If you don't want it to be chained, make it a touch spell. Persistent spell is as always a potential problem, make sure you're ok with that if you allow persistent spell.

I'm not sure a full round action is enough of a penalty to make it extend to the whole party (as sure you're killing one action but you're getting an entire party worth of extra standards the same round). If you are inclined to this idea I'd want a 1 round casting time, which makes it vulnerable to interrupting etc, but could be a powerful pre-battle-kick-down-door buff. Still at my table I'd prefer single target to be std action but only affects 1 person for 1 minute at 9th level, and any group buff be an epic spell created and negotiated at the table with GM as all custom epic spells are.

[bekeleven]

The Villain Design Handbook (3.0 Kingdoms of Kalamar) has Spell Haste, a "nerfed" 3.0 Haste spell, at 2nd level. It makes it so that the second spell you cast each round can be cast as a move action.

This isn't totally relevant to your questions because I suspect there's an implicit "but not kingdoms of kalamar" tag on every thread in the forums unless specified otherwise, but I wanted to mention it.

[Max Caysey]

So, just wondering.

IIRC, 3.0 haste granted an extra Standard Action per round, instead of just adding an extra attack on a Full Attack action.

If you spell researched or homebrewed a Greater Haste variant spell that did that in 3.5, what level spell would you peg that as? It's a pretty significant power boost (especially for casters).

For this thread, assume the theoretical Greater Haste functions in all ways as 3.5 Haste, with the sole exception that it grants an extra Standard Action each round, instead of an extra attack on a Full Attack action.

Not sure if this belongs here or in Homebrew, sorry.

Cheers - T

Haste gave a partial action extra in 3.0

[Thurbane]

Haste gave a partial action extra in 3.0

Correct....

[Harrow]

There is a feat (Action Surge) that lets you spend 2 action points for an extra move or standard action this turn. There is a spell (Unfettered Heroism) that gives you 1 action point per round for 1 round per level. If you have the feat, that 5th lvl spell is giving a single person an extra action every other turn. This is probably our best point of comparison.

Nitpicking here, the temporary action points given by Unfettered Heroism disappear at the end of each round if unused. You would need a second source of extra action points (of which I know none that would work with this combo) if you wanted to consistently use Action Surge.

I do agree that a Greater Haste spell should clock in at a 9th level spell.

[Biggus]

To those saying "it should be 9th level, if not epic", a couple of points:

1) high-level combats are very frequently over in the first two rounds, and if you're spending your first turn's standard action casting this, you're not doing something else which devastates your enemies

2) the difference between an extra standard action per round and an extra attack or 30ft move is very significant for casters, but for martial types it's often exactly the same thing.

That said, this would be a very strong spell. I'd probably put it at 8th myself.



Also, going from single target to multiple targets is generally worth 3 to 4 more spell level in D&D. Just look at all the "mass something" that exist.

While this is generally true, it can vary from +1 level (eg Mass Resist Energy for a Cleric or Druid) to +5 levels (eg Mass Invisibility).

[ManicOppressive]

I'm not really saying anything new to the thread but from a practical side I both DM in a setting where literally this spell exists (it also has a higher cap for doubling movespeed) and played a Swiftblade in near-stock 3.5 for like 6 years who researched it and used it all the way into epic. It's been 8th level and from my own experience it's been pretty great at that level.

[RandomPeasant]

1) high-level combats are very frequently over in the first two rounds, and if you're spending your first turn's standard action casting this, you're not doing something else which devastates your enemies

Not true as stated, since if casting the spell is a standard action, you get another one to do whatever you were planning to do. But I agree if you are proposing something like making it a full-round action to mitigate the way it doesn't really cost an action.


2) the difference between an extra standard action per round and an extra attack or 30ft move is very significant for casters, but for martial types it's often exactly the same thing.

Normal haste doesn't let you move, and martials very much appreciate the opportunity to move into position and make a full attack. ToB characters also have ways to make use of the standard. Casters do get more out of it, but burning through high level spell slots is a pretty real cost, especially if you're also the one casting greater haste.


While this is generally true, it can vary from +1 level (eg Mass Resist Energy for a Cleric or Druid) to +5 levels (eg Mass Invisibility).

It's also begging the question of whether the adjustment all those spells get is the right one. mass bear's endurance isn't exactly a top-shelf 6th level spell.

[Kazyan]

Just go ahead and put it at 4th level. If you have 4th level spells from the Sor/Wiz list, you win automatically against anything that doesn't have them anyway, so whatever.

[Biggus]

Not true as stated, since if casting the spell is a standard action, you get another one to do whatever you were planning to do. But I agree if you are proposing something like making it a full-round action to mitigate the way it doesn't really cost an action.

Do you get an extra standard action in the same round you cast the spell? Where does it say that?

If so, making it a full-round action is certainly a good idea.


Normal haste doesn't let you move, and martials very much appreciate the opportunity to move into position and make a full attack.


That is true. Free movement/pounce is a lot easier to get than an extra standard action though, many melee martials will already have it by level 15+.

[ericgrau]

To those saying "it should be 9th level, if not epic", a couple of points:

1) high-level combats are very frequently over in the first two rounds, and if you're spending your first turn's standard action casting this, you're not doing something else which devastates your enemies

The spell takes effect immedieately, so you should get another standard action during the first turn. And this is how 3.0 haste worked. If we make it multi target as Thurbane declared for this thread, then half your allies get extra actions round 1. Making it the best PHB spell by far, of any level, for high level combat where these first 1-2 rounds very frequently decide the fight. Now if we want to remove some of this then that could be a decent nerf to allow it to be lower level.

[Thunder999]

Some other comparable spells are Arcane spellsurge (downgrades your cast time, letting you do a standard action as a swift and full round as standard, effectively giving you an extra spell per round if you're spontaneous with a cost free metamagic feat). That's 7th level, and it's personal range and more limited than an extra standard action (though much like Schism, the limitations are fairly minor for anyone who can actually use it). Mass versions of a spell are usually about 2 levels higher, putting this at 9th.

I really can't see this as anything less than 9th really, and it'd be well worth the slot even as an epic spell, extra stanard actions are nearly as good as entire extra turns for a caster.

[Endarire]

Shapechange and certain other shapeshifting abilities let creatures take on Chronotyryn form for 2 full turns per round. I recommend this party-wide great haste be level 8+.

Remember, this is a spell so wonderful that everyone should be trying to use it once they're at a certain level!

[Fizban]

Arcane Spellsurge is the closest comparison for published spells post 3.5 Haste change, 7th level personal only. Being more open-ended and easier to use this must be more powerful, minimum 8th, and being a mass spell should be at least a level (usually two) higher. So 9th, at best.

One of the latest bits I'd been working on before my last break from DnD/the forum (am I back? dunno) was a Greater Haste. I've mentioned before how I find it suspicious how 3.x base damage spells are insufficient at higher levels with the d6/level model (same with non-Heal cures), yet also casters are overpowered by having too many spell slots so they supposedly never run out at high levels, and there just so happens to have been a 3.0 spell that doubled damage/heal output at the cost of double slot consumption, which was removed in what was universally agreed to have been an obvious and necessary fix- unintended consequences. Finding a way to get some of that effect back without throwing open the doors is tricky.

[remetagross]

Based on Arcane Spellsurge, I'd have said an 8th-level spell. That's because Arcane Spellsurge allows you to cast full-round action spells as standard actions, something this Greater Haste would not allow for.

[Fouredged Sword]

Timestop grants 2d4 standard actions (in the form of 2d4 extra turns) to a caster. It is a powerful but not out of line 9th level spell.

This greater haste grants 4 standard actions per turn (assuming a 4 person party) for some number of turns, likely granting dozens or more standard actions.

Thus I feel that it's more powerful than a 9th level spell, and thus a non-epic spellcaster researching something like it should have to make compromises.

Thus I present alternatives

Acceleration
-9th level spell
- Swift action cast
- Self only
- 1 round per 4 caster levels duration
- Grants 1 additional move or standard action each round for the duration of the spell. Also grants a +8 dodge bonus to AC and +30ft of move speed to all move speeds the caster possesses.

Greater Haste
- 9th level spell
- Standard action cast
- Close range
- 1 target per 4 caster levels, no more than 30ft apart
- Duration instant
- Upon casting this spell all the targets of this spell may perform any standard or move action they are capable of performing as an immediate action. If they do not choose to act directly after this spell is cast, or have already expended their swift action this round, this ability is lost.

[RandomPeasant]

Do you get an extra standard action in the same round you cast the spell? Where does it say that?

Why wouldn't it work that way? I suppose you could potentially word it in such a way as to preclude getting the action in turn you cast the spell, but you can take a second standard action each turn while the spell is in effect, and after having cast the spell you've only taken your first. By way of analogy, if you cast a Quickened regular haste and then make a full attack that turn, you still get the extra attack.


Timestop grants 2d4 standard actions (in the form of 2d4 extra turns) to a caster. It is a powerful but not out of line 9th level spell.

1d4+1, actually.


This greater haste grants 4 standard actions per turn (assuming a 4 person party) for some number of turns, likely granting dozens or more standard actions.

But they aren't frontloaded, and enemies get to act between them. It's true that you could potentially get many more actions out of a greater haste than a time stop, but it is generally much better to get your actions up front than to spread them out.

[Fouredged Sword]

Why wouldn't it work that way? I suppose you could potentially word it in such a way as to preclude getting the action in turn you cast the spell, but you can take a second standard action each turn while the spell is in effect, and after having cast the spell you've only taken your first. By way of analogy, if you cast a Quickened regular haste and then make a full attack that turn, you still get the extra attack.



1d4+1, actually.



But they aren't frontloaded, and enemies get to act between them. It's true that you could potentially get many more actions out of a greater haste than a time stop, but it is generally much better to get your actions up front than to spread them out.

Yes, but Timestop's actions are also restricted. 2-5 actions right this moment, but can't really effect other people VS 4-5 actions spread out over 4-5 rounds, but no restriction on what those actions are VS 4-5 actions right this moment, but they consume everyone's swift action (to prevent stacking this effect) and each person only gets one action.

[remetagross]

Fair point about Time Stop, but it grants 1d4+1 turns, not standard actions. This means you can either cast 1 round-long-casting spells, like summons, or full-round-action-casting spells, like metamagic'd spells from a spontaneous casting class, or use the move actions to move to an advantageous position, or use the swift actions to cast Quickened stuff each round in addition to everything else. So it's a bit more than just 1d4+1 castings.

[Fouredged Sword]

Fair point about Time Stop, but it grants 1d4+1 turns, not standard actions. This means you can either cast 1 round-long-casting spells, like summons, or full-round-action-casting spells, like metamagic'd spells from a spontaneous casting class, or use the move actions to move to an advantageous position, or use the swift actions to cast Quickened stuff each round in addition to everything else. So it's a bit more than just 1d4+1 castings.

Yeah, I don't think ether of the greater haste proposals I gave replace timestop. That was something I set out to avoid. If a spell is more powerful than a 9th level spell in some ways, but less powerful in others, but you can see specific builds picking ether for various reasons they are likely spells of the same level. If timestop was flatly better than greater haste then greater haste should be 8th level. If timestop is universally weaker than greater haste then greater haste should be a 10th level spell.

[liquidformat]

I think the best option here is to split Greater Haste into two spells. The first a self only version seems slightly worse than Time Stop so Level 8 seems just about right for that one.

Greater Haste that effects X number of targets in close range giving each an extra standard action/move action per round for x rounds seems slightly better than Time Stop But not outside of the power of 9th level spells so that should be a 9th level spell.

[loky1109]

I think the best option here is to split Greater Haste into two spells. The first a self only version seems slightly worse than Time Stop so Level 8 seems just about right for that one.


Self only means "persistent".

[Thunder999]

Give it close range but a target of you, just to break persist.

[liquidformat]

Self only means "persistent".

I am only aware of being able to reduce the meta magic cost of a spell by two levels, is it possible to get it to reduce by 5 or 6? If not I think its a moot point for a level 8 spell.

[JNAProductions]

I am only aware of being able to reduce the meta magic cost of a spell by two levels, is it possible to get it to reduce by 5 or 6? If not I think its a moot point for a level 8 spell.

Divine Metamagic can do it, for sure.

I guarantee you there are more ways to do it too.

[loky1109]

Give it close range but a target of you, just to break persist.

Close and You? Is there any precedent?

[liquidformat]

Divine Metamagic can do it, for sure.

I guarantee you there are more ways to do it too.

I guess the question is could you keep clerics and archivists from getting Greater Haste as a divine spell, if you can then Divine Metamagic is moot.

On a side note is range 'touch' considered a 'fixed' range if not then simply making Greater Haste range touch rather than personal would do the trick. Honestly keeping range as close and only allowing it to affect one target seems fine too.

[bekeleven]

If an 8th level spell has balance problems because people are applying a +6 metamagic to it, then no, the 8th level spell isn't the thing with balance problems.

[Fouredged Sword]

The correct way to balance persist based divine metamagic is to say no to persist based divine metamagic. It is unbalanced in basically all it's applications.

[liquidformat]

The correct way to balance persist based divine metamagic is to say no to persist based divine metamagic. It is unbalanced in basically all it's applications.


If an 8th level spell has balance problems because people are applying a +6 metamagic to it, then no, the 8th level spell isn't the thing with balance problems.

Yep couldn't agree more, at all the tables I have played at shenanigans like these get books thrown at you unless we are specifically going for an abuse game...

[RandomPeasant]

DMM Persistent isn't broken "in all applications". The thing where you have divine power and maybe righteous might or divine favor or something up all the time isn't game-destroying, it just makes you a better Fighter. And the Fighter is weak enough it's not even really reasonable to call that "overpowered". It doesn't even make you a better Warblade.

As far as the question at hand goes, I don't think an 8th level personal greater haste is even out of sync with the existing options for a Persistomancer. arcane spellsurge is lower level and covers most of the same ground. shapechange is higher level and gives substantially greater benefits. If you're really invested in it you can even do Assume Supernatural Ability + polymorph (Choker). Making it close range but self-only or some other hack is extremely clunky and not necessary.

[Fouredged Sword]

DMM Persistent isn't broken "in all applications". The thing where you have divine power and maybe righteous might or divine favor or something up all the time isn't game-destroying, it just makes you a better Fighter. And the Fighter is weak enough it's not even really reasonable to call that "overpowered". It doesn't even make you a better Warblade.

As far as the question at hand goes, I don't think an 8th level personal greater haste is even out of sync with the existing options for a Persistomancer. arcane spellsurge is lower level and covers most of the same ground. shapechange is higher level and gives substantially greater benefits. If you're really invested in it you can even do Assume Supernatural Ability + polymorph (Choker). Making it close range but self-only or some other hack is extremely clunky and not necessary.

It's not a matter of power. It is a matter of balance. DMM is metamagic cost reduction. The value of metamagic cost reduction grows exponentially the larger the spell level reduction is. DMM is in line with other metamagic cost reduction at 1-2 levels of spell level. It is unbalanced compared to even other metamagic reduction at 6 spell levels of reduction.

[RandomPeasant]

That's a distinction without a difference. I'm not even convinced it's true that DMM is out of line with other metamagic reducers when used with Persistent. It seems, for instance, perfectly in line with Vestige Metamagic.

[loky1109]

As far as the question at hand goes, I don't think an 8th level personal greater haste is even out of sync with the existing options for a Persistomancer. arcane spellsurge is lower level and covers most of the same ground. shapechange is higher level and gives substantially greater benefits. If you're really invested in it you can even do Assume Supernatural Ability + polymorph (Choker). Making it close range but self-only or some other hack is extremely clunky and not necessary.
Well, you can have them both. And ASA (Choker), too.

[RandomPeasant]

Well, you can have them both. And ASA (Choker), too.

Sure. But stacking extra actions is hardly a new problem that greater haste would introduce. With Easy Metamagic I can pop a celerity and a Twinned celerity out of a greater arcane fusion I cast using the standard action I got from casting a normal celerity, providing far greater action economy than an individual piece would. If I stack Incantatrix 10, Practical Metamagic, and arcane spellsurge on top of that I can turn one standard action into six. You can make the argument that you shouldn't introduce greater haste because it would amplify the problem, but you can also make the argument that you need to solve the problem and should allow greater haste because if not abused it is something with different performance characteristics that might appeal to different players (particularly the multi-target version, which while more powerful is so in a way that encourages teamwork).

[loky1109]

Sure. But stacking extra actions is hardly a new problem that greater haste would introduce. With Easy Metamagic I can pop a celerity and a Twinned celerity out of a greater arcane fusion I cast using the standard action I got from casting a normal celerity, providing far greater action economy than an individual piece would. If I stack Incantatrix 10, Practical Metamagic, and arcane spellsurge on top of that I can turn one standard action into six. You can make the argument that you shouldn't introduce greater haste because it would amplify the problem, but you can also make the argument that you need to solve the problem and should allow greater haste because if not abused it is something with different performance characteristics that might appeal to different players (particularly the multi-target version, which while more powerful is so in a way that encourages teamwork).

Point taken. 6 to 7 is just +16,6[6]%. Not so much.

[AvatarVecna]

There's two major balance issues with DMM persist.

The first is that persistent spell is a flat duration change. Spell that lasts 20 hours? 24 hours? Spell that lasts 5 rounds? 24 hours. Imagine if, instead of Persistent Spell, we could self-stack Extend Spell on things like in 3.0 - a sextuple-Extended Spell that's normally 1 round per level is now 64 rounds per level. That's a 2 hour duration at CL 20. That's pretty reasonable. 20 hour duration for something that's normally 1 min/lvl at CL 20? That's a good trade, I think. When you just change the duration to something new, of course that's gonna be stronger for short duration spells.

Secondly, DMM is bonkers in general. Substituting spell levels for turn attempts is busted enough when you're not boosting turn attemps per day with various things. When you are, it gets that much worse. But also, DMM let's you metamagic spells above the maximum level you can cast. Even if we agreed that Persistent Spell is fine the way it works (it's not), and is a fair price for its effect (debatable), the fact that you can get the equivalent of a 7th lvl spell at ECL 1 is never gonna be balanced.

[icefractal]

DMM would be ok if it worked like Sacred Geometry - you're limited to spells that you would have the slot for if metamagic'd normally.

So, as a Cleric 13+ ...
DMM Persist Divine Favor - effectively SL 7, so yes, and it just takes a 1st level slot
DMM Persist Righteous Might - effectively SL 11, so no.

It would still be good, letting you trade your often-unused turn undead for (effectively) additional spell slots, plus use metamagic on the fly as a prepared caster, but not broken.

With the same kind of tricks used for Shadowcraft Mage, you could probably increase that by 1-2 levels, but that'd be fine in an optimized group.

Incidentally, Persist would probably be ok at +4 (as originally printed), if that was a hard +4, no reducing or avoiding it. +6 is (if not cheated around) not worth it for most spells.

[Darg]

There's two major balance issues with DMM persist.

The first is that persistent spell is a flat duration change. Spell that lasts 20 hours? 24 hours? Spell that lasts 5 rounds? 24 hours. Imagine if, instead of Persistent Spell, we could self-stack Extend Spell on things like in 3.0 - a sextuple-Extended Spell that's normally 1 round per level is now 64 rounds per level. That's a 2 hour duration at CL 20. That's pretty reasonable. 20 hour duration for something that's normally 1 min/lvl at CL 20? That's a good trade, I think. When you just change the duration to something new, of course that's gonna be stronger for short duration spells.

Secondly, DMM is bonkers in general. Substituting spell levels for turn attempts is busted enough when you're not boosting turn attemps per day with various things. When you are, it gets that much worse. But also, DMM let's you metamagic spells above the maximum level you can cast. Even if we agreed that Persistent Spell is fine the way it works (it's not), and is a fair price for its effect (debatable), the fact that you can get the equivalent of a 7th lvl spell at ECL 1 is never gonna be balanced.

I don't think DMM itself is what is OP, even in combination with persistent spell. What is OP is the fact that you are using a resource that has a plethora of ways to be increased massively. Even if you take away nightstick abuse, you could end up anywhere around 30+ attempts by level 20 if you focus on it. Now imagine trying to fund metamagic rods to keep up with that.

[Tohron]

There is a feat (Action Surge) that lets you spend 2 action points for an extra move or standard action this turn. There is a spell (Unfettered Heroism) that gives you 1 action point per round for 1 round per level.

Somewhat off topic, but man, that would be so OP with an Incantatrix using Metamagic Effect (Persistent Spell)...

[Darg]

DMM greater anyspell could do it too.

[RandomPeasant]

That's not even the big cheese with Persistent unfettered heroism. The big cheese is that you combine it with Primal Scholar and now you can refresh any 5th level or lower spell slot you use as often as you want.


The first is that persistent spell is a flat duration change. Spell that lasts 20 hours? 24 hours? Spell that lasts 5 rounds? 24 hours. Imagine if, instead of Persistent Spell, we could self-stack Extend Spell on things like in 3.0 - a sextuple-Extended Spell that's normally 1 round per level is now 64 rounds per level. That's a 2 hour duration at CL 20. That's pretty reasonable. 20 hour duration for something that's normally 1 min/lvl at CL 20? That's a good trade, I think. When you just change the duration to something new, of course that's gonna be stronger for short duration spells.

I think a reasonable fix for Persistent would be to make it and Extend into "duration goes up by one category on rounds/level -> minutes/level -> 10 minutes/level -> hours/level" and let them stack with each other. That would stop the stuff that is, frankly, stupid like Persistent wraithstrike or swift haste. But I would argue that the issue is not so much weird low-duration spells as it is the fact that it stacks without any real limit. I don't think there is an argument other than "but it makes the Fighter sad" that a 11th level Cleric walking around with Persistent divine power and righteous might is overpowered. But as a 11th level Cleric, there's no real bright line that stops you from following that up with divine favor and anyspell -> wraithstrike and greater anyspell -> draconic polymorph and so on, up to Initiate of Mystra + Persistent antimagic field if you want.

The real fix I want, I think, is not to try to preserve the slot cost or whatever notion of fairness is being derived there. It's to limit the number of buffs people can have active at once. That handles Persistomancy of all sorts nicely, and it has the benefit of extending fairly naturally to things like magic items and maybe even minionmancy spells. It even gives the people who are on about how the Fighter is a superior buff target something to stand on: if there's a limit to how much value you can get from buffs, showing up with higher pre-buff value rather than a pile of spell slots to use on buffs has some potential niche.


Even if we agreed that Persistent Spell is fine the way it works (it's not), and is a fair price for its effect (debatable), the fact that you can get the equivalent of a 7th lvl spell at ECL 1 is never gonna be balanced.

"A 7th lvl spell at ECL 1" is one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that a Persistent divine favor gives you +1 to hit and damage at 1st level, making it marginally better than Weapon Focus. That seems perhaps less fundamentally unbalanced.


DMM would be ok if it worked like Sacred Geometry - you're limited to spells that you would have the slot for if metamagic'd normally.

I think that would be a fine solution to metamagic in general. But +6 is ludicrous for Persistent if you have things work that way.

[Seward]

There's a reason persistent and nightsticks were banned in every campaign I played below level 16. (above 16, people stopped worrying about balancing the tier 1 shenanigans). If we're talking near pre-epic play, you're mostly just talking about whether to spend WBL or feats if you want a particular persistent effect, and many folks find feats a more precious resource (2 to get persistent, plus whatever you're using to lower metamagic costs) and it isn't actually that common in areas where I played.

While persistent 3.0 haste would indeed be cool, most will find that 3 hours of shapechange-choker does that well enough and can do a bunch of other stuff too. We saw persistent used a lot more on things like divine power, which fix your bab problems in a way nothing else does. Note this is from the point of view of somebody who played with and GM'd for relatively few players with access to L9 spells - my highest level characters were level 16 or lower, holding the coats of the region's best heroes while they slummed it on a tier 16 adventure, with a few of us scrubs to fill out the party.

Which is to say, if you've balanced 3.0 haste the way you think it should work as a L8 or L9 option, persistent spell isn't going to really be that big a problem.

Or as the master mage Tell used to say before he set up his favorite "whisper chipper" "Tempus Fugit!"

(time stop, prismatic wall and a bunch of cast and quickened things that pushed anybody nearby hostile through the wall when the time stop ended)