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View Full Version : Sniper given another shot (Spheres in Review)



SangoProduction
2022-06-02, 09:47 PM
Preamble: I have to admit, I kind of did the Sniper sphere a bit dirty back when I first reviewed it. I saw it as the obligatory opposite to Barrage sphere's bonus attacks and damage. After all, by my reckoning, martials absolutely relied on either taking something to the absurd extreme, or having a bunch of attacks in order to compete with damage. With my greater knowledge and experience with Spheres of Might, I now see that I am more than a little wrong about that. There are plenty of ways to add damage. Weapon enhancements scale with attacks performed, but most sphere effects only have an effect on an attack *action.* And Spheres of Might is really good at adding extra damage, if you want it to. And if you pour a bunch of investment into it. I actually find it kinda droll, because so little... anyway, onto the review!

Post Review Analysis: Wow. I do really feel like I've grown in knowledge and experience after having done these reviews, and am now more capable of properly evaluating them. It's nice. Sniper sphere is perhaps my favorite martial sphere.

Flex Talents: Covering Fire: Extremely narrow corridors where you expect AoOs will be easily accessed, when you have Combat Reflexes.
Shield Shot: Vs tower shields, and shield specialists. Exclusively.
Steady Shot: vs concealment and cover
Weapon Shot / Disarming Trap: vs humanoids ( / any creature reliant on weapons to fight, that have no backups).

Full or Partial BAB: Full BAB progresses the damage (if you spend MF on Deadly Shot). But if you're using touch attacks, you probably don't care, and will likely hit every turn one way or the other. No snipe talents scale with BAB. (Save for Bouncing Shot which just sucks, and Thread the Needle for its blind.)

(1) Superb: You always want this if it's relevant to you. And it probably is.
(1.5) Really Good: Particularly useful bits of kit, but aren't quite must-haves. (Kept it decimal, because spreading out Good so far from Superb felt unrepresentative. But I needed a step between)
(2) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds. Among your first picks.
(3) Mediocre: Doesn't hurt to have. Wouldn't go out of your way for it.

(4) No: It technically has a use, but the cost to take simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.
(5) Never: There’s no non-trivial reason to pick it up, from its mechanics.
(6+) Harmful: Taking/using this is actively detrimental to your character.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
[Square brackets] indicate a reliance on the group (players or DM) or campaign you’re playing in, and how well it does in those select groups.

Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(?) Unrated: I choose not to rate it. Often because it is just so far out of my wheelhouse, or it’s far too ambiguous.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(D) D***bag: Used for when your character wants to be a D***bag.

Precise Shot [1]: If your DM rolls with the "shooting into melee" penalties, and you have melee in your team, and the enemy tend to be melee, then this is a must-have.


Deadly Shot (3): Special Attack Action, which prevents you from stacking it with the other SAAs, like Barrage's Barrage or Brutal Strike (which is a melee-exclusive). And that's basically it. Almost everything else either simply works on attack actions, or aren't attacks at all.

But... you gain next to nothing from using the Deadly shot action on its own. Martial focus (worth 1 hp burn / lvl) in order to deal +5.5 damage + 5.5/4 BAB is just... disappointing. By comparison, Brutal strike exchanges MF for 2*BAB, rather than 1.4*BAB, with no reduction for touch attacks. And I am still not even convinced by Brutal Strike, even though people have been claiming its brilliance. (I tried it, I just... eh. Not my thing.)
But the damage isn't the main draw. It's the (snipe) talents. Which means that you are kind of forced into investing at least 2 talents here.


Sniper Shot (1): Raises the action cost to a full-round action, but lets you apply 2 snipe talents. Snipe talents are pretty good. Assuming you can reliably hit them. Touch attacks are really good for this. It also doesn't say they have to be different (snipe) talents. But it's probably going to be contentious if you attempt to do that. Also you need to be careful not to select (snipe) talents that can be removed by removing the projectile.

Lethal Precision [1]: Assuming that you take the Deadly Assassin, Unchained Rogue archetype, this gives you access to your full SA bonus and Fencing sphere from range, and a swift action Sniping action rather than move action. But rogues are straight up better as melee in almost every situation. It's less fiddly, and less reliant on making a check every single round you attack.

Perfect Shot (1.5): Roll miss chance from concealment with advantage. And you don't auto-miss on a roll of 1, which is notable for touch attacks. Gets bumped down for the fact that Steady Shot, though it's a (snipe) talent completely ignores concealment *and* cover. But I think it's a fair trade off, since (snipe) slots are valuable. (But, do note that this applies to literally all attacks, rather than only deadly shots.

Retaliating Fire [2]: If you regularly face off against ranged foes (which for some reason, is very rare for me - DMs just love their brutes), then this can get you an extra few attacks a round, if you're lucky and have Combat Reflexes.
Covering Fire (2): Hypothetically, it could make sense, and your stats probably already lend you towards Combat Reflexes. Can be useful if you're holding off a narrow pass or dungeon hallway from a horde of monsters, and someone on your team can force AoOs for you. I think the comments have a better description than I could give. You really need to make a build around it and wait a fair few levels.

Focusing Reload (4): A typical move action for a reliable MF refresh. The only additional thing you get out of it though is the ability to reload while getting the MF. The good weapons already reload faster. There are much better move action focusers.
Targeted Assault (4): A very small amount of situationally increased damage. But it applies for any ranged attack action. Not just Deadly Shot. Still not great.
Unblockable (4): Even more situational ability to not be impeded by deflecting magics and abilities.

Breaking Blast (F): Almost never noteworthy. But if you want to be that guy who just shoots a door handle as your method of lockpicking, go for it.


Pinning Shot (1+): Grappled condition is insane. -4 Dex and -2 to hit. And they can't use two-handed actions, and they must make concentration checks to cast, and can't move. Granted, it's exceedingly easy to break free, with a CM roll against your CMD-4 as a move action. But it's not 100% guaranteed, unlike Hindering Projectiles (while still providing the same penalties and more). It's really odd that a Ring of Protection and Dodge feat helps your Pinning Shot stay in.

Thread the Needle (1): Dazzle for 1d4 rounds. That sucks. Oh, but wait. If they are already dazzled (by any source!) they are instead blinded for a minute. If they don't have healing, then this is absolutely crippling, and can't be easily removed. Even with healing avvailable, most of the time it's at least a standard action to remove the blind. Granted, it probably cost you(r team) a total of 2 standard actions before level 10.
Tangling Shot (1): Entangled, with standard action to remove. The penalties are much less insane than grappled, although the numerical penalties are the same, and stack, and it's potentially better at stopping casters at low levels. However, it is only removed on a standard action, which makes the penalty incredibly sticky compared to the other talents here. No mention that destroying the projectile will also get rid of it, but it will probably be made to have happen without some clever descriptions of the entanglement.

Hindering Projectiles [1.5]: -2 to attk, AC, and CMD. But it can be removed for a single move action, meaning that SoM enemies don't give a ship. And the penalty doesn't scale, except with the number of times you've applied it. But still, a very healthy penalty that can last an indefinite amount of time. It's nice.

Weapon Shot <1.5>: As Push Shot, but disarm is better, needs no supporting talents, and cripples martial humanoids.

Push Shot (2): Exclusively useful against non-monstrous enemies, but assuming you are targeting humanoids, and are full BAB, then you will probably hit their CMD if you hit their AC, with no need (or ability) to invest specifically into Bull Rush. But also not much point in this if you don't at least take Break Defenses and Dominos from the Brute sphere.
Trip Shot (2): As Push Shot, but better, with less need for supporting talents.

Shield Shot <2>: If you happen by a tower shield and/or shield specialist, you can be quite a pain for them, as you can shut down that part of their build unless they give up their standard action to remove it. Then you do it again.
Steady Shot (2): Totally ignore anything less than total cover and concealment.

Piercing Shot (3): Assuming you've got a touch attack, and enough enemies to reliably have some of them in a line relative to you, then have fun. Basically a really bad cleave that takes up your (snipe) slot. But if you've got a bunch of attack-action rider effects, like those mentioned here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646139-A-list-of-SoM-attack-rider-effects), then this likely applies to all of them.

Bouncing Shot (5): Literally no point in this, given that its bounce always applies at least -2 to hit. Guess what cover does? +2 to AC. Now, maybe they have total cover, and you can somehow see them... why not just move such that you can attack them as well? Well, you could be a cheesy 5 mile archer build, so that might be impractical. But in almost every single situation where this... your Creation sphere ally might have made a clear wall to block enemy attacks and basically give you targets that can't fire back... No. No. No.... That's way too specific. And you're giving up your (snipe) in order to get some protection while plinking the enemy, in addition to applying penalties to hit. It's not good.
But if you take non-standard weapons like Alchemy sphere concoctions or Destruction sphere's thrown gems... OK, anyway. This is staying here until someone gives me a good, coherent argument on the matter.

Head Shot (5): Fort save or kill anything you deal more than half their health in damage to. I mean, suffice it to say that if you're doing that, then they are going to go down anyway. Let your allies have some joy of hitting them. You also probably overinvested in damage.

Shattering Shot (6): Ranged sunder. Not even in addition to the attack - in place of it. So yay for going after the loot to the exclusion of ending the encounter.

Tactile Shot / Trap Technician (F): Next to no mechanical use. But if you like to show off. Or maybe your DM is a particularly trap-heavy sadist, then you could have some fun. There are definitely more efficient and effective ways of dealing with traps, but this is fun at least.


The Trap sphere talent, Trap Launcher, lets you lay snares, which activate immediately, at your foes' feet as a (snipe).
Tricky Traps (1+, C): Save, or suffer blind, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened... for one round, removable as a move action. 1d4 rounds, standard action, if invested. Not particularly greater than a particularly good (snipe) talent, which don't require saves, and don't have a timer on them. Well, if you have Cut and Run from Scoundrel, you can move your full movement speed, while spending a full round action to get two of these off (each needing a standard action to remove). And since this is movement, you then get to make a part-of-the-movement hide check, without suffering the Sniping penalty. Granted, only on a failed save, but you can also give them -5 to perception checks on top of that, and you're still not yet using your (trick) slot. There *a lot* that you can do here. Granted, a reasonable DM is still probably going to tell you to only use one instance of a (snipe) talent per full-round snipe, even here. But that's the potential.

Flash Trap (1): Cheese tier. Even if your DM is still smacking your nose if you try to one-turn your Thread the Needle... they are still blinded (on a failed save, granted) on the first turn, and that reliably sets up your minute-long blind next turn after level 2. Granted, is the 1/4 chance of rolling 1 round with Thread the Needle really more likely than them succeeding the save? No. Not typically. So does it really deserve to stay in C tier? Probably not. But also it's truly a save or actually lose. But Thread the Needle is 75% chance of no save and just lose. Why isn't Thread the Needle C tier if this is? Fine. Fine. It's just really good. And it's AoE.

Disarming Traps <1>: So, on a failed save, you get to apply an additional (disarm) and (bleed) slot, in exchange for your (snipe) slot. Bleed isn't that notable, but it is just yet another addon. This is... better than Weapon Shot, in every possible way. Except that you actually may have less reliability with actually have a lower chance of disarming them, since you tend to need to disarm specifically humanoids, who tend to have poor CMD. EXCEPT! That the trap being placed is not contingent on you hitting them. So I take that back entirely - especially if you use a touch attack weapon. Most notable thing you can do? Disarm them, and then catch their weapon, from upwards of 220 ft away with a Distance longbow. I'd say they're not exactly getting that back any time soon.

Skunk Smoke (1.5): A Fog effect that also sickened on a failed save. As a rider effect. That's really good.

Brutal Traps (2): Trades your (snipe) slot for both a knock back, and a (manhandle) slot. Normally you can't get (manhandle) as a rider effect, due to them being free actions. And it's a reflex save, rather than CM check, so you can even use it against monsters, and need no further investment. (Granted, you took Trap sphere and this talent, at minimum, and possibly a drawback that gave you Trap Launcher. So that's a fair bit of investment already. But that definitely evens out with its improved applicability vs more monsters, compared to Push Shot.) So, are (manhandle) talents good? Actually, they are really quite neat. Dazed and Confused gets stagger, and then you can Pinning Shot, and they literally cannot approach you that turn. You can just keep using your full action sniping without any fear of being in danger (from one enemy at a time). No, I lie. They can still 5ft step after being pushed back, and the stagger is hidden behind failing 2 consecutive saves. So it's not absurdly broken. Just potentially so. Also, I'm not even considering the massive damage just pinning them to a wall and ramming their face in with an arrow. Because this is a pretty huge paragraph for just one talent.

Scratching Post (2): Will save, or suffer -2 to attack - strictly worse than Hindering Projectile. Except that it's AoE. And it's not removed with just a move action. It takes at least an attack.

Bamboozling Trap (3): Ranged Feint is otherwise relatively obtuse to obtain, and this requires literally 0 other investment, as it's just a straight reflex save... By comparison, Sniping is much more involved (especially when race locked)... My god, am I actually going to rate this highly? Know what? If you really need to be Fencing and Sneak Attack... like... you are giving up one (snipe) slot for an (exploit) slot, and bonus damage, and an easier time hitting them. And sense you clearly have the Fencing sphere you can invest in letting this give you swift action regain martial focus, netting even more damage, and for it to last . Yeah. OK, I've talked myself... wait. Does this go off before or after the attack? If it's after, then this whole rant is pointless. Even if it does go before also trades a known good (snipe), which requires no save, for a save in order to apply an exploit, and the other stuff.
OK, I'll cut the difference and rate it as mediocre.

Noose (5): Aside from getting you investigated by the FBI, it really does about all of nothing, except against a subset of casters who need vocal components.

Bear Trap (6): Revised after seeing Disarming Trap... which is a disarm. Which applies the additional (bleed) like this would. But also disarms. This wasn't even good in the context of being against anything that can't be disarmed anyway. But still, that makes this a joke.
Foam Spray (6): Save or entangle until they make an escape artist as a move action. Vs no save, just entangle, until they simply make a move action. Less dice rolling around. And this is just straight up worse. Granted, it is potentially AoE, starting at level 5.
Net (6): Worse than Foam Spray in every way.
Terrain Trap (6): You get to deploy some area denial. Neat... except it's literally worse than Skunk Smoke in nearly every way. I mean... if you really wanted to make damned sure to deny an area, you could stack them up, making it marginally harder to simply pass through the stinky area. Someone might stub a toe on their way through. Oh no. Poor thing.

Alarm (F): I mean... you could probably just yell, honestly. But I do imagine that a city guard might have reasonable use for this. Most players aren't (active) city guards.
Magic / Techno Trigger (?): Literally no way to properly rate this. Way too many variables. Overall, the potential is stupid. Just the most straightforward, "Activate Fireball to devastate a 30ft radius as a rider to my attack" is still relatively potent. But, yeah. Too many variables.


Not only that, but you can also explicitly apply (poison)s to your traps before launching them, in addition to your normal shot, in addition to the option to just straight up rig inhaled AoE (poison) to go off as a trap, in and of itself. But I'm literally so exhausted that I'm seeing double. And I'm not sure my ratings would change for literally any of the poison talents already reviewed. Most of them are already 3-hit kills. And you could probably do it better with Barrage anyway.

astrerouge
2022-06-03, 01:57 AM
For bouncing shot, a trick to note is that you can sniper shot it with piercing to get a pseudo full attack, albeit with a bigger penalty
For exemple atk 1 hit and pierce, bounce to second target or even same one

SangoProduction
2022-06-03, 03:15 AM
For bouncing shot, a trick to note is that you can sniper shot it with piercing to get a pseudo full attack, albeit with a bigger penalty
For exemple atk 1 hit and pierce, bounce to second target or even same one

Eh. I'm definitely thinking that if your purpose for the action is to project AoE damage, taking massive to-hit penalties, and giving up your full attack and snipe slots, you'd be better off using Barrage.

Not saying you're wrong. It's neat. But. I definitely don't think it's practical. Especially for a non-touch attack.

Kitsuneymg
2022-06-04, 02:55 AM
Eh. I'm definitely thinking that if your purpose for the action is to project AoE damage, taking massive to-hit penalties, and giving up your full attack and snipe slots, you'd be better off using Barrage.

Not saying you're wrong. It's neat. But. I definitely don't think it's practical. Especially for a non-touch attack.

Each bounce gets sniper damage. I built and played an inquisitor sniper. It did stupid amounts of damage. It’s a better trade, imo, than deadly aim.

One thing to note: you technically can’t use it to get a pseudo full attack. But the creator liked the idea and imagery of it so much, they okayed it.

If you’re interested, I’ll see if it can’t dig Rogar out of the depths of roll20. But he used sniper, war, alchemy, bane, enhance, and stacking oversized weapon stuff to one (piercing) shot multiple giants/round in giantslayer.

Granted barrage does damage better, but I do remember a great time when I did a piercing blind shot on 5 giants in a line. Ah good times.

Sniper is underrated. Even for a dedicated barrage user, you need to at least take perfect shot (it doesn’t specify that this only works for ranged attacks, let alone sniper only,) targeted assault (any range AA works here,) and either unblockable or (better idea) buy a silver knocking point and pump to-hit more.

I also feel you simply *must* include trap sphere when reviewing sniper. After all, there is trap sphere talent that turns all traps into snipe talents.

Lastly, if you really want to go the extra mile, the runesinger can get a feat to use snipe and a rune. Bouncing shot becomes incredibly effective here. Obviously, bolt ace makes for a hilarious dip if you’re doing this, but with war and enhance its trivial to get to hit high enough even as a 3/4 that you won’t need to make touch attacks.

I love this sphere. Barrage is too easy to abuse. This sphere takes some work to make the GM regret spheres. But rangers inquisitors are always stupid strong.

SangoProduction
2022-06-04, 04:45 AM
I was about to state that you're really not getting much extra damage from a penetrating snipe. Then I thought about it for a moment. It's still all part of a single attack action, rather than multiple attacks on an attack action.
Still, it's rather incredibly impractical, compared to Barrage, when you're looking to project AoE damage. But I'll bump it up a tier for the argument.
And thanks for the reminder on Perfect Shot. I originally had it highly ranked for precisely that reason then the "straight up ignore all miss chance *and cover*" snipe talent showed itself.
Fair point on the Targeted Assault, as well. Particularly as a dip for Barrage, because they attack so much, and get relatively more out of it. But they already have a "all attacks count as one, for the purpose of DR," which negates that argument. It's back to being a small, circumstantial bonus to damage.

I already have a trap sphere in review, where I already point that out... But you make a fair point in that they do function differently when shot, versus wielded/placed, which was the default assumption in that review. I'll add a trap (snipe) section later.

AvatarVecna
2022-06-04, 06:38 AM
Covering Fire is a talent that has precious little synergy with the actual Sniper sphere, but can get devastating with outside help. I'm not even talking about Combat Reflexes - if you don't have extra AoO, covering Fire is near-useless. But like...even just those two together is letting you make up to four attacks (or more) as a standard action, depending on Enemy action. That the action takes you from threatening zero spares to 4 (then 12 at BAB +4, then 24 at BAB +8, and so on), where you can choose the area Rochester anywhere within one RI instead if it being stuck around you...that's a pretty decent one feat/one talent combo.

Conscript 8 w/ Dex 18 (after items)

Barrage: Base, Mobile Focus, Close Combat Specialist, Vigilant Sharpshooter 2

Guardian: Base (Patrol), Swift Guardian, Swift Reflexes, Punishing Rebuke

Sniper: Base, Covering Fire

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Overwatch, Great Focus

Item: +1 distance longbow

3/9 feats and 11/16 talents.

Standard action to use Covering Fire, laying down a 15 ft radius AoE within 220 ft that counts as your threatened area and as a patrol. Move action plus Martial Focus to start an actual patrol - expending your normal threatened area to a 25 ft radius around you (and, depending on interpretation, expanding Covering Fire to a 30 ft radius). Within these two AoEs, you flank with your ranged weapon, and can make up to 8 AoOs (provoked by movement or by attacking allies). Oh, and because Vigilant Sharpshooter lacks the language the Overwatch feat possesses, VS lets you move around while making AiOs within your patrol. Move 10-15 ft during this, and you no-action recover that spent Martial Focus.

The full combo can come online a bit earlier than 8th lvl, and even earlier with a more minimal version, but lvl 8 is low end of mid-levels, which feels like a good showcase level.

Edit: But like it baffled me that initial sphere judgement was like "you need multiple attacks to deal good damage" and was then like "why would you take Covering Fire, it's only letting ranged builds play around with the AoO system, why would you even take Combat Reflexes on a ranged build". The full combo is devastating, but two talents and a feat are the bare minimum, and that lets you make up to Dex mod +1 attacks as a standard. That could be as many as seven attacks per round at level 1 with the right race. Thats the same as a BAB 16 barrage with martial focus spent and Spinning Shot. And it's better AoE than your default melee threatened area as early as lvl 4, and is located anywhere nearby instead of right on top of you.

Kitsuneymg
2022-06-04, 07:45 AM
The biggest problem with sniper is that any optimization you do is more than likely to also apply to barrage. And barrage inflicts the “dead” condition really easily. Which is the best condition for enemies to have.


It’s minor, but Arrow Split is your one and only [blitz] talent. Not that the others have a huge draw. So getting sniper to ignore some DR is nice. Arrow Split also does nothing for ER. My inquisitor had no less than 6 energy effects (one stacked so often doubled up) per shot. Usually force, sonic, corrosive, fire, electric, then either fire or bludgeoning(I guess not really an entertaining effect, but alchemical coating is weird.) Sometimes both of the last two. Knocking fiend multi-resist down by 5 to 7 really helped.

Anyway. I quite like sniper for its power level. Barrage has too much damage and trivially breaks games. Sniper both fills a role that can’t be filled easily with existing full attacks, and is tuned better/harder to make dumb.

SangoProduction
2022-06-05, 08:04 AM
The biggest problem with sniper is that any optimization you do is more than likely to also apply to barrage. And barrage inflicts the “dead” condition really easily. Which is the best condition for enemies to have.


It’s minor, but Arrow Split is your one and only [blitz] talent. Not that the others have a huge draw. So getting sniper to ignore some DR is nice. Arrow Split also does nothing for ER. My inquisitor had no less than 6 energy effects (one stacked so often doubled up) per shot. Usually force, sonic, corrosive, fire, electric, then either fire or bludgeoning(I guess not really an entertaining effect, but alchemical coating is weird.) Sometimes both of the last two. Knocking fiend multi-resist down by 5 to 7 really helped.

Anyway. I quite like sniper for its power level. Barrage has too much damage and trivially breaks games. Sniper both fills a role that can’t be filled easily with existing full attacks, and is tuned better/harder to make dumb.

Fair enough, and I felt that way as well, at first blush. Just that I've been able to come around to recognizing Sniper for what it is, rather than simply regretting that it doesn't have as much damage.


Covering Fire is a talent that has precious little synergy with the actual Sniper sphere, but can get devastating with outside help. I'm not even talking about Combat Reflexes - if you don't have extra AoO, covering Fire is near-useless. But like...even just those two together is letting you make up to four attacks (or more) as a standard action, depending on Enemy action. That the action takes you from threatening zero spares to 4 (then 12 at BAB +4, then 24 at BAB +8, and so on), where you can choose the area Rochester anywhere within one RI instead if it being stuck around you...that's a pretty decent one feat/one talent combo.

Conscript 8 w/ Dex 18 (after items)

Barrage: Base, Mobile Focus, Close Combat Specialist, Vigilant Sharpshooter 2

Guardian: Base (Patrol), Swift Guardian, Swift Reflexes, Punishing Rebuke

Sniper: Base, Covering Fire

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Overwatch, Great Focus

Item: +1 distance longbow

3/9 feats and 11/16 talents.

Standard action to use Covering Fire, laying down a 15 ft radius AoE within 220 ft that counts as your threatened area and as a patrol. Move action plus Martial Focus to start an actual patrol - expending your normal threatened area to a 25 ft radius around you (and, depending on interpretation, expanding Covering Fire to a 30 ft radius). Within these two AoEs, you flank with your ranged weapon, and can make up to 8 AoOs (provoked by movement or by attacking allies). Oh, and because Vigilant Sharpshooter lacks the language the Overwatch feat possesses, VS lets you move around while making AiOs within your patrol. Move 10-15 ft during this, and you no-action recover that spent Martial Focus.

The full combo can come online a bit earlier than 8th lvl, and even earlier with a more minimal version, but lvl 8 is low end of mid-levels, which feels like a good showcase level.

Edit: But like it baffled me that initial sphere judgement was like "you need multiple attacks to deal good damage" and was then like "why would you take Covering Fire, it's only letting ranged builds play around with the AoO system, why would you even take Combat Reflexes on a ranged build". The full combo is devastating, but two talents and a feat are the bare minimum, and that lets you make up to Dex mod +1 attacks as a standard. That could be as many as seven attacks per round at level 1 with the right race. Thats the same as a BAB 16 barrage with martial focus spent and Spinning Shot. And it's better AoE than your default melee threatened area as early as lvl 4, and is located anywhere nearby instead of right on top of you.

Interesting build. Never would have considered it, myself.
With regard to your edit, the reason I said it needs Combat Reflexes, is because it takes your standard action, and simply lays down an area where you get to potentially, maybe attack... instead of attacking with that standard attack. Unless you've got some serious AoO synergy, you may as well have just taken Boxing sphere, and get to get all the benefits of an attack action, on literally anywhere in the same range as you can lay down your Covering Fire.
And you are slightly incorrect as to the area. It's a 5ft radius, which is 4 squares (though I'd reasonably argue that Patrol could improve that... if you weren't already using your standard action and so even Swift Guardian can't be used simultaneously).
Normal AoO is 8 squares, without reach. With reach and size increases (let alone Cloth Snake Puppet), it gets much better as early as level 1.
Now you do have *an* advantage here, and that's the fact that no one necessarily has to occupy the adjacent spaces to your threatened zone, letting you potentially get full use out of them, compared to melee which kind of has an AoO deadzone, because they are just going to smack you. They don't need to move.

To summarize: I am intrigued by your build. It doesn't quite function how I think you think it functions, but it's neat all the same. I remain unconvinced that it makes the talent good. In fact, I'm almost convinced it's worse than I gave it credit for.

Anyway, going to start adding traps to the review. Brb.

EDIT: OK, I admit that trying to rush through the responses to get to the trap segment while edging towards sleep probably lead to some misinformed conclusions. I apologize.

Serafina
2022-06-05, 08:34 AM
So, regarding Bouncing Shot and Piercing Shot: if it does work as a true AoE, is there anything preventing it from hitting the same target twice?
That is to say, your first line goes to your first bounce, crossing target A's space and hitting it (thus continuing). Then, it continues onwards towards a second bounce - crossing A's space again, hitting it again. From the second bounce, you go back to the first bounce, crossing A's space again....this continues until you miss or run out of range.

This reading could of course be trivially stopped by going "you can't hit the same target more than once", or less desirably by discarding the true AoE reading.
However, if it does work, it is potentially quite potent?


Also, as another note: the Runesinger fighter can combine it's Runes with the Sniper Sphere, adding level/Dx in damage (runes go up to D8 in damage, depending on the rider effect they carry, and with the right feats are available every round). It is AFAIK the only class which can do so, but regardless, this adds a lot more damage.

AvatarVecna
2022-06-05, 09:25 AM
Interesting build. Never would have considered it, myself.
With regard to your edit, the reason I said it needs Combat Reflexes, is because it takes your standard action, and simply lays down an area where you get to potentially, maybe attack... instead of attacking with that standard attack.

This is the exact attitude I was complaining about in the edit. "It's worse than attacking with the standard action, unless you've got Combat Reflexes. But why would you take that on a ranged build? It's a waste of a feat, except for this specific scenario where it can give you more attacks per round than a lvl 20 barrage".


Unless you've got some serious AoO synergy, you may as well have just taken Boxing sphere, and get to get all the benefits of an attack action, on literally anywhere in the same range as you can lay down your Covering Fire.

"The talent is trash unless you take stuff that synergizes with it"

Wow hot take.


And you are slightly incorrect as to the area. It's a 5ft radius, which is 4 squares (though I'd reasonably argue that Patrol could improve that... if you weren't already using your standard action and so even Swift Guardian can't be used simultaneously). Normal AoO is 8 squares, without reach. With reach and size increases (let alone Cloth Snake Puppet), it gets much better as early as level 1.

Now you do have *an* advantage here, and that's the fact that no one necessarily has to occupy the adjacent spaces to your threatened zone, letting you potentially get full use out of them, compared to melee which kind of has an AoO deadzone, because they are just going to smack you. They don't need to move.

So first off, I literally said it's 4 squares. At level one. Bolded and underlined for emphasis:


Covering Fire is a talent that has precious little synergy with the actual Sniper sphere, but can get devastating with outside help. I'm not even talking about Combat Reflexes - if you don't have extra AoO, covering Fire is near-useless. But like...even just those two together is letting you make up to four attacks (or more) as a standard action, depending on Enemy action. That the action takes you from threatening zero spares to 4 (then 12 at BAB +4, then 24 at BAB +8, and so on), where you can choose the area anywhere within one RI instead if it being stuck around you...that's a pretty decent one feat/one talent combo.

Secondly, you're pretending it never gets better on its own. Which it does. Starting at level 4, it is a 10 ft radius, which is 12 squares. This is, objectively, better than the default reach, and it continues improving every 4 BAB without additional resources put into it. It also doesn't escape my attention that you're comparing it to a large build with a reach weapon and multiple talents spent improving reach in order to pretend it sucks by comparison when on its own. The part you're presumably focused on, the part where I said it's a 15 ft radius on its own? That's at level 8, when it becomes a 15 ft radius, and is 24 squares of threatened area which is more than a Large creature threatens.

Thirdly, while you are correct that Covering Fire has a marginal benefit over a reach build (in that reach builds have this adjacent ring where they just can't hit at all), the main benefit of Covering Fire is that you can put the threatened area wherever you want. Now, in order to hold down a corridor, you don't even have to be standing in it and risking your hide. Normally if people get past you, and they're faster than you, that's it. But now you can lay down covering fire in an area of your choice anywhere within up to 220 ft (depending on weapon type). It's not the same as having a 220 ft radius threatened area, but threatening groups that are 400 ft apart from one round to the other is still pretty useful, I would think.

Fourthly...are you, the spheres expert, pretending you don't know that Swift Guardian allows you to start a patrol as a move action by spending your martial focus? Exactly like I ****ing said?


Standard action to use Covering Fire, laying down a 15 ft radius AoE within 220 ft that counts as your threatened area and as a patrol. Move action plus Martial Focus to start an actual patrol - expending your normal threatened area to a 25 ft radius around you (and, depending on interpretation, expanding Covering Fire to a 30 ft radius). Within these two AoEs, you flank with your ranged weapon, and can make up to 8 AoOs (provoked by movement or by attacking allies). Oh, and because Vigilant Sharpshooter lacks the language the Overwatch feat possesses, VS lets you move around while making AiOs within your patrol. Move 10-15 ft during this, and you no-action recover that spent Martial Focus.


Swift Guardian
If you possess the (challenge) package, you reduce the required action to use challenge by 1 step (move to swift, swift to free).

If you possess the (patrol) package, you may use patrol as a standard action. You may instead expend your martial focus to use patrol as a move action.

(Additionally, the benefit of the Overwatch feat is that, even if I don't start an actual patrol, my Covering Fire area still gets the benefit of patrol talents.)


To summarize: I am intrigued by your build. It doesn't quite function how I think you think it functions, but it's neat all the same. I remain unconvinced that it makes the talent good. In fact, I'm almost convinced it's worse than I gave it credit for.

That'd be pretty difficult considering you gave it no ****ing credit.

Absolutely baffling.

EDIT: And like...a big benefit of the build is that it's essentially doubling up on the Guardian increase. It's increasing the threatened area directly around me from Vigilant Sharpshooter, but it's also increasing the Covering Fire, since that's threatened area too. Absolutely baffling that a ranged build with a 25 ft radius threatened area around themselves, and a 30 ft radius threatened area anywhere within 220 ft of their choice, making possibly up to 9 attacks a round, at level 8, is making you view the talent worse than when you initially gave it like no credit.

SangoProduction
2022-06-05, 10:18 AM
Alright! Finished with the traps segment. I was fairly surprised by the results.


So, regarding Bouncing Shot and Piercing Shot: if it does work as a true AoE, is there anything preventing it from hitting the same target twice?
That is to say, your first line goes to your first bounce, crossing target A's space and hitting it (thus continuing). Then, it continues onwards towards a second bounce - crossing A's space again, hitting it again. From the second bounce, you go back to the first bounce, crossing A's space again....this continues until you miss or run out of range.

This reading could of course be trivially stopped by going "you can't hit the same target more than once", or less desirably by discarding the true AoE reading.
However, if it does work, it is potentially quite potent?


Also, as another note: the Runesinger fighter can combine it's Runes with the Sniper Sphere, adding level/Dx in damage (runes go up to D8 in damage, depending on the rider effect they carry, and with the right feats are available every round). It is AFAIK the only class which can do so, but regardless, this adds a lot more damage.

I.... I guess nothing would stop it from bouncing and hitting the same guy multiple times, if you manage to hit their AC with ramping -6 penalties. Which might be possible, actually, if you have a touch attack weapon.
That's... That does admittedly seem a little absurd, given that each bounce is still part of the same attack action. I would never attempt to do it in my game, as that would likely lead to one of two rulings: on-attack-action effects happen once per creature, or on-attack-action-effects happen once per attack action. The latter would be really bad to have happen if I was legitimately using it for AoE. Then again, a lot of the talents written with on-attack-action effects do very much read as the latter. So the fewer opportunities to come to that ruling there are, the better, in my opinion.

Runesinger is definitely an archetype I feel like I've reviewed, but I can't find it at all.
Anyway, I went back to double check it rather than relying on memory, right before bed, because that's clearly gotten someone really riled up. Yeah, rune's attack ability is a special attack action, which explicitly means that it can't stack with Snipe in anyway. Unless I'm missing something.

Serafina
2022-06-05, 10:48 AM
Runesingers can take the Fletcher's Mark (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/runesinger#toc27) feat, which explicitly allows Deadly Shot to work with Runes. It also works with Ancient Word which boosts Rune damage to Dx/level rather than Dx/2 levels.

A simple Runesinger Sniper level 8 build (by itself a good archetype, only trading out armor training/mastery, getting Runes and Expert proficiency, keeping all other Fighter goodies) would be thus:
- two runes of choice (e.g. Pain for D8s and save vs. Sicken, and Soul for D2s and saves vs. Con-damage)
- Fletchers Mark feat, Ancient Word, Signature Rune
- Combat Stamina, Focused Stamina, Great Focus
- some way to regain Martial Focus
Expend martial focus for both Ancient Word and Deadly Shot (hence such high investment into having more of it). 8D8 damage from your Pain Rune, and a +4 to the save DC or be sickened for 1D4 rounds. 3D10 (or D6) damage from Deadly Shot. On the next round, use Soul Rune - only 8D2 damage, but save vs. D4 Con damage may well do more damage. Then, switch to whichever rune was the signature rune - which may also be used for mobility purposes.

8D8+3D6+ whichever you do from your weapon, ability scores, and other feats, is by no means bad damage for level 8. Notably, this does not work with Barrage or Dual Wielding (Dual Wielding does work with Runes, but not with Ancient Word).

Seerow
2022-06-05, 11:37 AM
Covering Fire is a talent that has precious little synergy with the actual Sniper sphere, but can get devastating with outside help. I'm not even talking about Combat Reflexes - if you don't have extra AoO, covering Fire is near-useless. But like...even just those two together is letting you make up to four attacks (or more) as a standard action, depending on Enemy action. That the action takes you from threatening zero spares to 4 (then 12 at BAB +4, then 24 at BAB +8, and so on), where you can choose the area Rochester anywhere within one RI instead if it being stuck around you...that's a pretty decent one feat/one talent combo.

Conscript 8 w/ Dex 18 (after items)

Barrage: Base, Mobile Focus, Close Combat Specialist, Vigilant Sharpshooter 2

Guardian: Base (Patrol), Swift Guardian, Swift Reflexes, Punishing Rebuke

Sniper: Base, Covering Fire

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Overwatch, Great Focus

Item: +1 distance longbow

3/9 feats and 11/16 talents.

Standard action to use Covering Fire, laying down a 15 ft radius AoE within 220 ft that counts as your threatened area and as a patrol. Move action plus Martial Focus to start an actual patrol - expending your normal threatened area to a 25 ft radius around you (and, depending on interpretation, expanding Covering Fire to a 30 ft radius). Within these two AoEs, you flank with your ranged weapon, and can make up to 8 AoOs (provoked by movement or by attacking allies). Oh, and because Vigilant Sharpshooter lacks the language the Overwatch feat possesses, VS lets you move around while making AiOs within your patrol. Move 10-15 ft during this, and you no-action recover that spent Martial Focus.

The full combo can come online a bit earlier than 8th lvl, and even earlier with a more minimal version, but lvl 8 is low end of mid-levels, which feels like a good showcase level.

Edit: But like it baffled me that initial sphere judgement was like "you need multiple attacks to deal good damage" and was then like "why would you take Covering Fire, it's only letting ranged builds play around with the AoO system, why would you even take Combat Reflexes on a ranged build". The full combo is devastating, but two talents and a feat are the bare minimum, and that lets you make up to Dex mod +1 attacks as a standard. That could be as many as seven attacks per round at level 1 with the right race. Thats the same as a BAB 16 barrage with martial focus spent and Spinning Shot. And it's better AoE than your default melee threatened area as early as lvl 4, and is located anywhere nearby instead of right on top of you.

This was my favorite build that I had come up with a while back. It's such a neat combo. And it only gets better the deeper you go. Like you point out at this level you have 11/16 talents spent. Spending couple of those extra talents in Guardian makes it so now all that huge threatened area you have is difficult terrain for enemies (I preferred this zone talent to get an AoO when they attack an ally, but your mileage may vary depending on enemy types. Shutting down all enemy charges and limiting enemy mobility in general was generally hugely useful), enemies take penalties to concentration checks, and allies within it gain 20% miss chance.

Also the character I built using the combo dipped into the Warleader Sphere a bit, base sphere gives you aggressive flanking talent, so now any two allies threatening the same creature are considered flanking it. You threaten everything, so all allies are always getting the flank bonus. Warleader Sphere Specialization gives teamwork feats you can share with your party. Outflank to turn that constant flanking bonus into a +4, and make it so anytime anyone has a crit threat, it provokes an AoO from the rest of the group, and it's kind of silly.

Definitely one of my favorite support builds ever. Look forward to getting to try it again sometime.

AvatarVecna
2022-06-05, 12:15 PM
This was my favorite build that I had come up with a while back. It's such a neat combo. And it only gets better the deeper you go. Like you point out at this level you have 11/16 talents spent. Spending couple of those extra talents in Guardian makes it so now all that huge threatened area you have is difficult terrain for enemies (I preferred this zone talent to get an AoO when they attack an ally, but your mileage may vary depending on enemy types. Shutting down all enemy charges and limiting enemy mobility in general was generally hugely useful), enemies take penalties to concentration checks, and allies within it gain 20% miss chance.

Also the character I built using the combo dipped into the Warleader Sphere a bit, base sphere gives you aggressive flanking talent, so now any two allies threatening the same creature are considered flanking it. You threaten everything, so all allies are always getting the flank bonus. Warleader Sphere Specialization gives teamwork feats you can share with your party. Outflank to turn that constant flanking bonus into a +4, and make it so anytime anyone has a crit threat, it provokes an AoO from the rest of the group, and it's kind of silly.

Definitely one of my favorite support builds ever. Look forward to getting to try it again sometime.

There's a few tempting zone talents IMO - the one I mentioned, the one you mentioned, and then also the reposition one that just locks down movement. I went with this one because I think being able to punish attacks on allies gives me a better chance of getting all those AoOs, but the others are pretty great here too.

Warleader is a sphere that can be sprinkled into lots of builds for a bit of support, and it's just lovely. :smallsmile:

Kitsuneymg
2022-06-05, 04:48 PM
Per my conversation in discord in 2019 with the author, bouncing shot and piercing shot do not, raw, work together nor can you hit the same target. But that was not intentional. He(?) liked the idea so much that he was cool with saying they worked. And the context was explicitly hitting the same target over and over again.

It’s not hard for a full bab class to hit multiple times at -6 and -12. Heck, -12 of your third iterative with rapid shotting. SoP makes it tremendously easier to get bonuses online since you can move action war sphere and swift action The Hermit for a dumb set of bonuses.

SangoProduction
2022-06-06, 12:55 AM
Per my conversation in discord in 2019 with the author, bouncing shot and piercing shot do not, raw, work together nor can you hit the same target. But that was not intentional. He(?) liked the idea so much that he was cool with saying they worked. And the context was explicitly hitting the same target over and over again.

It’s not hard for a full bab class to hit multiple times at -6 and -12. Heck, -12 of your third iterative with rapid shotting. SoP makes it tremendously easier to get bonuses online since you can move action war sphere and swift action The Hermit for a dumb set of bonuses.

Ah. Yeah. After more careful reading, it does definitely not work by raw, though it would allow you maximum freedom to set up the line as you please. It's nice to have gotten an author's input on it though.

Being able to grant flanking at will is definitely interesting.