Disappointing: You can't Twin Shadow Blade

[Segev]

This is just a short rant/sigh of disappointment. It seems like every time I think of a use for metamagic, it turns out it's designed such that it cannot be done. Sure, sure, maybe I'm too much of a powergamer, but it's to the point that whenever I think of trying to build a sorcerer, when I get to the point of picking metamagic...I kind-of give up on it because I can't think of any that are worth the effort. Well, Subtle's good, I guess, at least, if you're going heavy on Enchantment spells.

Twin doesn't really seem worth it unless you're in a very rare situation where you have exactly two enemies you care about; most fights, in my experience, are either against one big enemy, or against groups (which may include one big enemy, but rarely exactly two). Distant is good for a theory-build trying to make a sniper out of a Warlock/Sorcerer multiclass, but that's one very precise build; is it ever worth using in practice, enough that you're very glad you played a sorcerer or took a feat to get it? I have yet to think of a spell where Extend is useful; What's 20 minutes instead of 10 good for, or 2 minutes instead of 1? Maybe 16 hours of mage armor is...something? I guess you could at least cast that at the start of your long rest and have it up for the start of the next day.

The one that started this was me looking at shadow blade, noticing that it's Light, and thinking, "Neat, you could dual wield those. ...but it's Concentration, so you can't have two. Maybe you can Twin it? It doesn't target multiple creatures already....drat, Self spells are specifically excluded from Twinning."

Ah, you can Twin dragon's breath, which might be worth doing if you want your familiar and somebody else to have it.

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a bit. What spells and metamagics do you find worthwhile? What uses for metamagic make you excited about playing a sorcerer?

[x3n0n]

The obvious ones are Quicken and Subtle, as you implied, although Quicken only feels good if I have something worthwhile to do with my action other than cast a leveled spell.

More situational are Twin and/or Distant for in-combat buffs or heals, and Extend for buffs of at least an hour or out-of-combat effects like aura of vitality whose effectiveness scale with number of rounds.

The emphasis on buffs and heals makes these obvious "good with Divine Soul" options to me.

[PhantomSoul]

The obvious ones are Quicken and Subtle, as you implied, although Quicken only feels good if I have something worthwhile to do with my action other than cast a leveled spell.

More situational are Twin and/or Distant for in-combat buffs or heals, and Extend for buffs of at least an hour or out-of-combat effects like Aura of Vitality whose effectiveness scale with number of rounds.

The emphasis on buffs and heals makes these obvious "good with Divine Soul" options to me.

At least for games I've been in, the difference between one and two hours has so rarely been significant that it seems to me mainly to be for 8-hour spells, and then you get occasional benefits for one-minute (combats anticipated to be very long) or one-hour (maybe for very specific travel or infiltration stuff) as gravy. One hour probably has more use if you're going through a dungeon with 10-minute combat turns or something like that, though, but then which spells really benefit on the Sorcerer list is still somewhat limited!

[RogueJK]

I have yet to think of a spell where Extend is useful; What's 20 minutes instead of 10 good for, or 2 minutes instead of 1? Maybe 16 hours of mage armor is...something? I guess you could at least cast that at the start of your long rest and have it up for the start of the next day.

Extend is great on spells with a duration of 10 minutes or longer. That 20 minute or especially 2 hour duration is typically long enough to last you through an entire dungeon.

Especially nice on 1 hour duration Summoning spells, giving you a lot of bang for your buck in a single spell slot, although the options for those are limited for Sorcerers... Draconic Spirit for all, plus Celestial for Divine Soul, Aberration for Aberrant Mind, or Construct for Clockwork Soul.


Extend is especially fantastic on non-Concentration 8 hour duration buff spells, for exactly the reason you stated. You can cast Gift of Alacrity/Aid/Darkvision/Mage Armor/Death Ward just before a Long Rest, and start the Adventuring Day with 8 hours remaining plus your full allotment of spell slots and sorcery points. Heck, you can have all of those spells running at the same time, even potentially multiple instances on multiple party members, provided you have enough spell slots available before your long rest. And a Divine Soul Sorcerer with the Fey Touched feat has access to all five of those spells. (Unfortunately, while a Clockwork Soul gets Aid they can't access Death Ward.)

Blowing your highest level remaining spell slot or two on Upcast Extended Aid just before a long rest is a nice boost to party survivability for the next day, especially when backed up with Extended Death Ward on the party members too.

[x3n0n]

At least for games I've been in, the difference between one and two hours has so rarely been significant that it seems to me mainly to be for 8-hour spells, and then you get occasional benefits for one-minute (combats anticipated to be very long) or one-hour (maybe for very specific travel or infiltration stuff) as gravy. One hour probably has more use if you're going through a dungeon with 10-minute combat turns or something like that, though, but then which spells really benefit on the Sorcerer list is still somewhat limited!

Agreed on all counts. This is a little better for Sorlocks, who can use 1-hour Extend to "rest trick" a buff across a short rest (e.g. armor of Agathys).

[Abuzorg]

A few of my favorite uses :

- Twin Haste
- Twin Vortex Warp
- Twin Raulathim Psychic Lance
- Twin Banishment
- Quickened Sunbeam
- Quickened anything when you are a Sorcadin
- Extended Mage Armor, Aid, Death Ward, or any other 8 hours duration buff spell before a long rest.
- Transmuted to fire Vitriolic Sphere, with a Tiefling with both the Flames of Phlegetos and Elemental Adept (fire) feats.
- Careful Hypnotic Pattern or other debuff spell
- Subtle Suggestion, Charm Person, etc.
- Subtle Counterspell

[Doug Lampert]

At least for games I've been in, the difference between one and two hours has so rarely been significant that it seems to me mainly to be for 8-hour spells, and then you get occasional benefits for one-minute (combats anticipated to be very long) or one-hour (maybe for very specific travel or infiltration stuff) as gravy. One hour probably has more use if you're going through a dungeon with 10-minute combat turns or something like that, though, but then which spells really benefit on the Sorcerer list is still somewhat limited!

One hour extended lets your sorlock cast prior to short-resting to recover the slot. Or your sorcerer's buffs remain up while the fighter and monk and warlock short rest.

[Skrum]

An entire thread could be made just called Disappointing: Shadow Blade, because that's what that spell is. Virtually all combos are not RAW legal, meaning the spell is exactly what it says: a way for a spellcaster to use a secondary stat to attack poorly in melee range. It's really lame, and a great example of "so close, yet so far."

[Unoriginal]

This is just a short rant/sigh of disappointment. It seems like every time I think of a use for metamagic, it turns out it's designed such that it cannot be done. Sure, sure, maybe I'm too much of a powergamer, but it's to the point that whenever I think of trying to build a sorcerer, when I get to the point of picking metamagic...I kind-of give up on it because I can't think of any that are worth the effort. Well, Subtle's good, I guess, at least, if you're going heavy on Enchantment spells.

Twin doesn't really seem worth it unless you're in a very rare situation where you have exactly two enemies you care about; most fights, in my experience, are either against one big enemy, or against groups (which may include one big enemy, but rarely exactly two). Distant is good for a theory-build trying to make a sniper out of a Warlock/Sorcerer multiclass, but that's one very precise build; is it ever worth using in practice, enough that you're very glad you played a sorcerer or took a feat to get it? I have yet to think of a spell where Extend is useful; What's 20 minutes instead of 10 good for, or 2 minutes instead of 1? Maybe 16 hours of mage armor is...something? I guess you could at least cast that at the start of your long rest and have it up for the start of the next day.

The one that started this was me looking at shadow blade, noticing that it's Light, and thinking, "Neat, you could dual wield those. ...but it's Concentration, so you can't have two. Maybe you can Twin it? It doesn't target multiple creatures already....drat, Self spells are specifically excluded from Twinning."

Ah, you can Twin dragon's breath, which might be worth doing if you want your familiar and somebody else to have it.

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a bit. What spells and metamagics do you find worthwhile? What uses for metamagic make you excited about playing a sorcerer?

You can Twin Polymorph on two allies. Or on one ally and one enemy.


One of the bad guys in the campaign I DM is a Sorcerer, and he has gotten a lot of mileage out of Subtle Detect Thoughts. The PCs haven't realized he's been reading their thoughts.

Said Sorcerer will also enjoy Quickened Booming Blade + Multiattack action when a combat happens, 'cause he's pretty strong for a Sorcerer and he got a magic staff to help with that.

[RogueJK]

An entire thread could be made just called Disappointing: Shadow Blade, because that's what that spell is. Virtually all combos are not RAW legal, meaning the spell is exactly what it says: a way for a spellcaster to use a secondary stat to attack poorly in melee range. It's really lame, and a great example of "so close, yet so far."

Pre-Tasha's, Shadow Blade could be combo'd with BB/GFB, and some DMs may still allow it. (Jeremy Crawford has stated that this nerf was unintentional, and while it isn't strictly legal RAW, he still allows it in his game.)

Even if you can't combo BB/GFB, it still has a place at certain times with Arcane Tricksters, Bladesingers, Eldritch Knights, and other DEX-based multiclass Gishes, especially when upcast and/or fighting in Dim Light/Darkness.

[Psyren]

As others have said, Twin is usually best used for concentration buffs like Haste, Polymorph or Fly. While you can't guarantee having two important enemies in every fight, you can almost always guarantee having two important allies (typically two melee - e.g. tank and off-tank, tank and pet, tank and dps etc.)

[RogueJK]

Similarly, Twinned Protection from Good/Evil is a great option when the party is fighting those specific types of enemies. (Aberrations, Celestials, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, and Undead)

My Sorcadin got a lot of mileage out of that in our Avernus campaign.

[meandean]

Extend is also excellent with aura of vitality¹. So yeah, it's gonna be good on either spells intended to last "all day", or "in-combat" spells that were already arguably more useful out of combat anyway.

Heightened can routinely wreck early-game fights. As the game progresses and it's only gonna matter on enemies who either don't have Legendary Resistance or have already burned through them, it's less potent.

Quickened, as stated, is most obviously useful with certain multiclasses (Eldritch Blast or weapon users). But, you can also use it for defense (Dodge/Disengage/Dash with the action), or on spells like polymorph that normally don't allow you to utilize the spell effect on the same turn it's cast.

As said, Twin is usually gonna do more on buffs/heals than on enemies. A lot of control spells can be upcast for multiple targets, so Twinning will help you before you have those upcast slots, but may not be necessary afterwards. And single-class Sorcerers may lack many of the lower-level, single-target spells where Twinning can be very efficient in early game (e.g. Tasha's hideous laughter and dissonant whispers -- although those are Fey Touched options, as is command which a Divine Soul can also easily pick up).

The uses for Transmute are obvious (avoid resistance/immunity, or you're also a Tempest Cleric or have some other build that really wants a particular type of damage).

I agree that metamagic ultimately doesn't make up for having fewer spell options in the first place. But, there are a lot of things you can do with it that are interesting and powerful. Just not as powerful as Wizards.

¹ Which admittedly is probably only gonna apply to Divine Soul, and apparently it's not entirely clear that even they can get it.

[RogueJK]

Well, Subtle's good, I guess, at least, if you're going heavy on Enchantment spells.

It's good for all surreptitious spellcasting, even non-Enchantment spells.

It also allows you to cast Verbal spells while Silenced or gagged, or Somatic but non-Material spells while tied up or your hands are full.

And a Subtle non-Material spell can't be Counterspelled, since the enemy has to see the Sorcerer casting a spell to counter it, and if there are no components then there's nothing for them to see.

[Skrum]

Pre-Tasha's, Shadow Blade could be combo'd with BB/GFB, and some DMs may still allow it. (Jeremy Crawford has stated that this nerf was unintentional, and while it isn't strictly legal RAW, he still allows it in his game.)

Even if you can't combo BB/GFB, it still has a place at certain times with Arcane Tricksters, Bladesingers, Eldritch Knights, and other DEX-based multiclass Gishes, especially when upcast and/or fighting in Dim Light/Darkness.

Do you have a cite for this? I'd love to show it to my group; this actually just came up last night

[RogueJK]

Do you have a cite for this? I'd love to show it to my group; this actually just came up last night

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1327132714013782017?lang=en

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Empower is worth 6 pts of damage on a fireball for 1 sorcery point. Multiply that by the # of foes you hit. Tack on the 4-5 points you're getting with elemental affinity if you're a dragon sorc and you're chucking AoEs for 40 points of damage. Nobody else can do that at 6th level.

It's not overly new or clever, but it works on an already OP spell. It's efficient in use of sorcery points. If you want you can Quicken as well so that you still have your action to do whatever you want if you need to. Edit: or Transmuted or...

[Damon_Tor]

Pre-Tasha's, Shadow Blade could be combo'd with BB/GFB, and some DMs may still allow it. (Jeremy Crawford has stated that this nerf was unintentional, and while it isn't strictly legal RAW, he still allows it in his game.)

Even if you can't combo BB/GFB, it still has a place at certain times with Arcane Tricksters, Bladesingers, Eldritch Knights, and other DEX-based multiclass Gishes, especially when upcast and/or fighting in Dim Light/Darkness.

Only if you assume that an object with no listed value thus has no value, which is in direct contrast to RAW, which says that when an object does not have a listed value, the dungeon master assigns it one. Very few intellectually honest DMs would assign a weapon like a Shadow Blade a value low enough to disqualify it as a material component fir bb/gfb.

I played a gish sorcerer that made extensive use of upcast shadow blade to great effect alongside twinned and quickened booming blade. He was absolutely a glass cannon type, but he was great at dealing really damage as a skirmisher as long as he had a really solid frontline, an this case a pair of tanky, aggro-holding melee types.

[Segev]

Some interesting suggestions; thanks. How many of these are build-defining, to people? Or are these mostly incidental bonuses?


The shadow blade probably makes an okay off-hand weapon for an arcane trickster, and wouldn't be bad for a hexblade who can get his hands on it due to the auto-upcasting. But yeah, like metamagic, a lot of the "cool stuff" you might do with it is cut off at the knees by the rules as actually written.

[Witty Username]

I like the idea of careful spell, it doesn't do well with blasts but dropping a hypnotic pattern or fear with it can be very effective.

[Xihirli]

Extended Aura of Vitality is twice as good as Aura of Vitality.

[kazaryu]

Only if you assume that an object with no listed value thus has no value, which is in direct contrast to RAW, which says that when an object does not have a listed value, the dungeon master assigns it one. [b]Very few intellectually honest DMs would assign a weapon like a Shadow Blade a value low enough to disqualify it as a material component fir bb/gfb.[/b[


why would a DM assign a value greater than 0 to an impermanent object? to whom is the 'object' worth...anything? what is the market for an object that cannot exist for long outside of the casters hand? whos buying it?

[Psyren]

Some interesting suggestions; thanks. How many of these are build-defining, to people? Or are these mostly incidental bonuses?

A support sorcerer that focuses on twinning powerful buffs like Haste is definitely a build I would play, and would make Metamagic Adept even more impactful on a sorcerer.

[Segev]

why would a DM assign a value greater than 0 to an impermanent object? to whom is the 'object' worth...anything? what is the market for an object that cannot exist for long outside of the casters hand? whos buying it?Are healing potions 0 gp, then? What about getting an NPC to cast a buff for you? The buff is impermanent.


I like the idea of careful spell, it doesn't do well with blasts but dropping a hypnotic pattern or fear with it can be very effective.That is a good point.


A support sorcerer that focuses on twinning powerful buffs like Haste is definitely a build I would play, and would make Metamagic Adept even more impactful on a sorcerer.
Why does it make Metamagic Adept even more impactful? The 2 extra SP alone, or is there something specific about needing the extra metamagic choice?

[Pex]

Distance can matter. Distant Spell gives your touch spells a range of 30 ft. That helps keep you out of melee range. Spells can have ranges of 60 ft, 90 ft. That is a good distance, but sometimes the bad guys are farther than that. Distant Counterpsell helps a lot, or it did until the recent book made the spell obsolete. :smallwink: Distant spell is for tactical use, not a main strategy.

So what there are more than two enemies? You don't need to affect them all at once. Twin to affect two and be happy with your contribution. Twin buff spells to help two party members with one concentration spell.

Extend spell can be useful in dungeon crawls when reinforcements arrive at the sound of battle or encountering a succession of foes. If you want time to search a room you extend the 10 minutes spells not the 1 minute spells. Those are for the reinforcement scenarios.

Heighten counteracts spell resistance in addition to when you absolutely really need a bad guy to fail a save against your spell.

Subtle is good for tactics with your cleric or bard who casts Silence.

[x3n0n]

Some interesting suggestions; thanks. How many of these are build-defining, to people? Or are these mostly incidental bonuses?

Twin heal, Twin concentration buff, and Extended 8hr buffs for "rest trick"ing feel pretty definitive for a Divine Soul. If your DM rules that Tasha's brought aura of vitality onto the Divine Soul list, then that's also great when Extended.
Quicken feels pretty definitive for a Warlock 2/Sorc X or a Sorcadin.

Subtle opens up social spellcasting in a way almost nothing else does and makes things immune to counterspell (and silence, and hands-tied, as mentioned by others above).

[RSP]

The shadow blade probably makes an okay off-hand weapon for an arcane trickster, and wouldn't be bad for a hexblade who can get his hands on it due to the auto-upcasting. But yeah, like metamagic, a lot of the "cool stuff" you might do with it is cut off at the knees by the rules as actually written.

SB makes a great primary weapon, except for Hexblades or Bladelocks. Unless the DM helps you out, it’s tough to do a 1-hour ceremony to make the 1-minute duration Shadow Blade your Pact weapon. So no Cha to attack, nor EA, which for Bladelocks only happens with their Pact Weapon. (I’ve had this SB disappointment before.)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Some interesting suggestions; thanks. How many of these are build-defining, to people? Or are these mostly incidental bonuses?


The shadow blade probably makes an okay off-hand weapon for an arcane trickster, and wouldn't be bad for a hexblade who can get his hands on it due to the auto-upcasting. But yeah, like metamagic, a lot of the "cool stuff" you might do with it is cut off at the knees by the rules as actually written.

In terms of my suggestion: Dragon Sorc + Empower + Quickened/ Transmuted for sure you're a build defined blaster. I'm sure there are a lot of folks out there chomping at the bit to say Dragon Sorc is short on spells compared to the new Subclasses and Sculpt Spells + versatility of Wizard chassis makes Evoker better. But 40 point fireballs through tier 2 are nothing to sneeze at, and since Empower only costs 1 point, you actually have the sorcery points to make this work every time without cannibalizing your lower level slots.

Edit: One more thing that just occurred to me as it's been a while since I played my character that had this. The numbers I gave were based on averages, and since you choose to Empower or not after you've rolled damage you can beat the average and not spend the point every time. Your fireballs will be approaching 150% of normal damage with smart use on a Fire Dragon Sorc.

[Corran]

Maybe there's an issue with components, but if you dont pay too much attention to such things, you could instead go for a twinned holy weapon with a divine soul sorcerer.

[Unoriginal]

Subtle also let you cast any spell in public in a situation where being perceived as casting a spell would cause people to react in unwelcome ways.

Could use it to cheat at a game or a sport event, bypass the attention of the guards protecting the nobles in the ballroom, make the bad guys not realize you're sabotaging their ritual when you're pretending to negotiate with them, and any other kind of things in the same register.

[Psyren]

Why does it make Metamagic Adept even more impactful? The 2 extra SP alone, or is there something specific about needing the extra metamagic choice?

More points to spend. You can get a lot of mileage out of those points though since you can choose to twin cheap buffs that last for the entire combat, like PEaG.

[meandean]

Distant Counterpsell helps a lot, or it did until the recent book made the spell obsolete. :smallwink: According to Crawford, it didn't work anyway... expanding the range of the spell doesn't affect the condition needed to trigger the spell as a reaction, which remains "a creature within 60 feet of you."

Your DM may vary, of course. (IMO, that's a classic example where the text by the strictest possible interpretation does say that, but it makes very little sense -- what the hell does the 60' range of the spell represent, if that's not what it means? -- and it's certainly not fun.)

[TaiLiu]

We had a thread a year ago on the uses of Distant spell (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632495-Curious-Benefits-of-Distant-Spell). Spells that let you target multiple creatures within a certain range benefit (like banishment). You can quadruple your reach with single-target spells (like telekinesis) and double the range of some teleportation spells (like dimension door). Niche, certainly, but it can be put to good effect.

[XmonkTad]

One of the uses I've had with Quicken is hitting the thing that's going to counter spell me with Shocking Grasp and then Quickened-cast whatever I want after. That way they either counter spell the cantrip, or I disable their reaction and get to cast my big spell anyway.
But yeah, quickened and subtle are way ahead of the others. Transmute is really nice though!

[Kylar0990]

This is just a short rant/sigh of disappointment. It seems like every time I think of a use for metamagic, it turns out it's designed such that it cannot be done. Sure, sure, maybe I'm too much of a powergamer, but it's to the point that whenever I think of trying to build a sorcerer, when I get to the point of picking metamagic...I kind-of give up on it because I can't think of any that are worth the effort. Well, Subtle's good, I guess, at least, if you're going heavy on Enchantment spells.

Twin doesn't really seem worth it unless you're in a very rare situation where you have exactly two enemies you care about; most fights, in my experience, are either against one big enemy, or against groups (which may include one big enemy, but rarely exactly two). Distant is good for a theory-build trying to make a sniper out of a Warlock/Sorcerer multiclass, but that's one very precise build; is it ever worth using in practice, enough that you're very glad you played a sorcerer or took a feat to get it? I have yet to think of a spell where Extend is useful; What's 20 minutes instead of 10 good for, or 2 minutes instead of 1? Maybe 16 hours of mage armor is...something? I guess you could at least cast that at the start of your long rest and have it up for the start of the next day.

The one that started this was me looking at shadow blade, noticing that it's Light, and thinking, "Neat, you could dual wield those. ...but it's Concentration, so you can't have two. Maybe you can Twin it? It doesn't target multiple creatures already....drat, Self spells are specifically excluded from Twinning."

Ah, you can Twin dragon's breath, which might be worth doing if you want your familiar and somebody else to have it.

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a bit. What spells and metamagics do you find worthwhile? What uses for metamagic make you excited about playing a sorcerer?

Twin is good for buff spell such as Haste or Polymorph so you get 2 for the cost of 1 caster's concentration.

Distant also allows touch spell to be cast from 30 feet. Probably more useful for Divine Soul Sorcerer.

I honestly don't see Extend as that useful.

Transmute is good for getting around immunities/resistances or exploiting vulnerabilities.

Careful is good for spells such as Hypnotic Pattern.

Heightened is too expensive to only target one opponent.

Empowered is good for making up for disappointing damage rolls.

Quickened is good but over used.

Seeking doesn't seem worth it. Why waste 2 spell points to get a second roll for a cantrip or low level spell. I'm having trouble thinking of a spell above 2nd level with an attack roll.

[Kylar0990]

Extend is especially fantastic on non-Concentration 8 hour duration buff spells, for exactly the reason you stated. You can cast Gift of Alacrity/Aid/Darkvision/Mage Armor/Death Ward just before a Long Rest, and start the Adventuring Day with 8 hours remaining plus your full allotment of spell slots and sorcery points. Heck, you can have all of those spells running at the same time, even potentially multiple instances on multiple party members, provided you have enough spell slots available before your long rest. And a Divine Soul Sorcerer with the Fey Touched feat has access to all five of those spells. (Unfortunately, while a Clockwork Soul gets Aid they can't access Death Ward.)



This maybe the only useful thing I seen for Extend.

[Damon_Tor]

why would a DM assign a value greater than 0 to an impermanent object? to whom is the 'object' worth...anything? what is the market for an object that cannot exist for long outside of the casters hand? whos buying it?

Is this sandwich worth nothing? Plenty of people are happy to pay a few bucks for something that only lasts a few minutes.

A more relevant example, the game itself already has a measure of value for a single-casting of a spell in the form of scrolls. Presumably the value of the shadow blade itself is some fraction of the value of a scroll of shadow blade.

[Speely]

I might be in the minority here, but I think SB is already good enough without boosting it via Metamagic or houseruling a BB combo. I think it's fine.

[kazaryu]

Is this sandwich worth nothing? Plenty of people are happy to pay a few bucks for something that only lasts a few minutes. except food doesn't last you just a few minutes. its converted into base components which are then used to construct your body for quite some time. even more importantly, the sandwhich is something that you can trade. it can have a market value...because it can actually be sold at market. a shadow blade cannot. the only way for you to 'trade' your shadow blade would be for someone to ready an action to attack, and then have you hand it to them on their turn (if the DM even allows that). its not comparable to a sandwhich.


A more relevant example, the game itself already has a measure of value for a single-casting of a spell in the form of scrolls. Presumably the value of the shadow blade itself is some fraction of the value of a scroll of shadow blade.
right, a single casting that you can give away...that can have a value because it has a market. there is no market for a the shadow blade created by the spell, because it cannot be practically traded. if a person can't gain utility from an object...then that object has no value.


please note, i don't actually care about RaW. i let my players GFB/BB with shadow blade. im just taking exception to the assertion that its intellectually dishonest to assign a value of 0 to an object that noone is going to pay money for outside of scams.

[Chronic]

The best metamagic are subtle and empower. Empower provide a significant improvement in spell damage and make then more reliable (usually better than quicken and twin, because way less expensive, you can usually use it every time you cast a damage spell) , it's also cheap and therefor spammable.
Subtle is great and makes the sorcerer the best stealthy caster in the game and a king of social situation. Of course if your gm isn't following the rules for casting and allow you to cast spells in social situation without consequences its utility is reduced.
Twin cast is actually a bit niche, and only divine soul sorcerers have enough spells compatibles (and useful) to justify taking it early. It's also very expansive and I use it mostly for an handful of spells like witch bolt if I pick it early, or great buffs like polymorph etc.
Quicken is in my opinion better to use for something else than casting an additional damage cantrip. Sure sometime you want to maximize your burst damage, and it's more justifiable if you are playing a sorcerer/paladin/warlock, but most of the time I would empower spells for damage and use quicken to cast a spell and disengage/dash/defend. It's really cool to free up your action economy and can be clutch to safely flee a dangerous situation for example. It's expensive tho.
Transmutable spell is a nice and cheap option to take by level 10.

The rest range from gimmicky to a waste of good sorcery points.

[JackPhoenix]

Are healing potions 0 gp, then? What about getting an NPC to cast a buff for you? The buff is impermanent.

The buff is a service, not goods, and healing potion, while consumable, does not cease to exist once it leaves the creator's hand.


Distance can matter. Distant Spell gives your touch spells a range of 30 ft. That helps keep you out of melee range. Spells can have ranges of 60 ft, 90 ft. That is a good distance, but sometimes the bad guys are farther than that. Distant Counterpsell helps a lot, or it did until the recent book made the spell obsolete. :smallwink: Distant spell is for tactical use, not a main strategy.

Distant Counterspell always was a waste of sorcery points, because increased range did not help with the trigger for the reaction, which was seeing a creature cast a spell within 60' (not within spell's range). But I agree... there were multiple times when I went "now would be a great time to use Bestow Curse, if only I didn't need to get into the melee reach of whatever I want to curse".


Maybe there's an issue with components, but if you dont pay too much attention to such things, you could instead go for a twinned holy weapon with a divine soul sorcerer.

The issue is not with components, the issue is that Twinned Spell has to target a creature, and Holy Weapon targets a weapon (and Shadow Blade doesn't target anything).

[RSP]

The buff is a service, not goods, and healing potion, while consumable, does not cease to exist once it leaves the creator's hand.

Any answer other than “ask your DM” is wrong. The idea that SB (or anything else in the game) doesn’t have worth because it’s not listed is ridiculous. If anything without a listed value/worth is “RAW zero worth” than PCs will have cities they own at level 1, RAW.

If a DM wants to decide a weapon dealing 2d6 Psychic damage is worthless to adventurers, that’s certainly their prerogative, but it isn’t RAW.

[Segev]

except food doesn't last you just a few minutes. its converted into base components which are then used to construct your body for quite some time.

Eh, the shadow blade lasts you quite some time by those standards: the damage it deals doesn't heal by the end of the spell, or at all if it kills the target, which can garner you the target's loot, and possibly your own ongoing life if you're in a life-or-death fight when you cast it.

[kazaryu]

Eh, the shadow blade lasts you quite some time by those standards: the damage it deals doesn't heal by the end of the spell, or at all if it kills the target, which can garner you the target's loot, and possibly your own ongoing life if you're in a life-or-death fight when you cast it.

yes, for you. if you cast the spell, you can get utility out of it. However, you can't give the blade to someone else to use in any practical way. it has not utility as a trade good, and as such, doesn't have an inherent worth.

My point is that the shadow blade that is created by the spell, is not equivalent to the ability to cast the spell. a spell scroll obviously has worth, the actual blade? not so much.

[Segev]

yes, for you. if you cast the spell, you can get utility out of it. However, you can't give the blade to someone else to use in any practical way. it has not utility as a trade good, and as such, doesn't have an inherent worth.

My point is that the shadow blade that is created by the spell, is not equivalent to the ability to cast the spell. a spell scroll obviously has worth, the actual blade? not so much.

Does that mean that if you used a scroll to cast it, it suddenly is a valid material component? :P

Honestly, though, arguing over the RAW is probably pointless when we ultimately agree that DMs will rule on it how DMs will rule on it, and few will allow a forum-based RAW argument to sway them, especially when everyone acknowledges that, if it's RAW, it's not RAI.

[PhantomSoul]

Does that mean that if you used a scroll to cast it, it suddenly is a valid material component? :P


Not if you cast it through the scroll (then the valuable part is gone), but if you just use the rolled-up scroll as an improvised weapon similar enough to a melee weapon to thwack someone, then you're set!

[Pex]

According to Crawford, it didn't work anyway... expanding the range of the spell doesn't affect the condition needed to trigger the spell as a reaction, which remains "a creature within 60 feet of you."

Your DM may vary, of course. (IMO, that's a classic example where the text by the strictest possible interpretation does say that, but it makes very little sense -- what the hell does the 60' range of the spell represent, if that's not what it means? -- and it's certainly not fun.)




Distant Counterspell always was a waste of sorcery points, because increased range did not help with the trigger for the reaction, which was seeing a creature cast a spell within 60' (not within spell's range). But I agree... there were multiple times when I went "now would be a great time to use Bestow Curse, if only I didn't need to get into the melee reach of whatever I want to curse".



Accepted. I stand corrected on Distant Counterspell. The value of Distant as a metamagic remains.

[Segev]

Not if you cast it through the scroll (then the valuable part is gone), but if you just use the rolled-up scroll as an improvised weapon similar enough to a melee weapon to thwack someone, then you're set!

I've got it! Stick a silver piece to your shadow blade; now the whole thing is worth at least 1 sp!

[Corran]

The issue is not with components, the issue is that Twinned Spell has to target a creature, and Holy Weapon targets a weapon (and Shadow Blade doesn't target anything).
Ah, shame. It could be a good buff to twin.

[kazaryu]

Does that mean that if you used a scroll to cast it, it suddenly is a valid material component? :P well..the scroll and the weapon are different things so...no :P


Honestly, though, arguing over the RAW is probably pointless when we ultimately agree that DMs will rule on it how DMs will rule on it, and few will allow a forum-based RAW argument to sway them, especially when everyone acknowledges that, if it's RAW, it's not RAI.

im not arguing RaW or RaI. I interjected because someone made the assertion that assigning the shadow blade a value low enough to make it ineligible for GfB/BB was 'intellectually dishonest'. That is the assertion im challenging. im not even trying to claim that the blade itself should be considered to be 0 value, only that its possible to assign it that value entirely earnestly.

[Kane0]

This is just a short rant/sigh of disappointment. It seems like every time I think of a use for metamagic, it turns out it's designed such that it cannot be done. Sure, sure, maybe I'm too much of a powergamer, but it's to the point that whenever I think of trying to build a sorcerer, when I get to the point of picking metamagic...I kind-of give up on it because I can't think of any that are worth the effort.

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a bit. What spells and metamagics do you find worthwhile? What uses for metamagic make you excited about playing a sorcerer?

*Checks notes*


Accurate Spell
When you cast a spell which requires an attack roll, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain advantage on the first attack roll made when the spell is cast, scoring a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Careful Spell
When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can spend 2 sorcery points and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum one) to be unaffected by the spell.

Concussive Spell
When you cast a spell that deals damage, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change that spell's damage type to Force damage, and if the spell reduces a creature to 0 Hit Points you can choose to knock the creature unconscious instead of dealing lethal damage.

Distant Spell
When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell.
When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 1 sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet.
You can use Distant Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

Elemental Spell
When you cast a spell that deals Acid, Fire, Cold or Lightning damage, you can spend 1 sorcery point change the damage type to another one of the named types.
You can use Elemental Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

Enlarge Spell
When you cast a spell with an area of effect, you can spend 2 sorcery points to double that area.

Extend Spell
When you cast a spell with a duration of 1 minute or 10 minutes, you can spend 1 sorcery point to increase its duration to 1 hour.
When you cast a spell with a duration of 1 hour, you can spend 1 sorcery point to increase its duration to 8 hours.
When you cast a spell with a duration of 8 hours or more, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double its duration.
You can use Extend Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

Heightened Spell
When you cast a spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to give one target of the spell disadvantage on all saving throws made against the spell

Lingering Spell
When you cast a spell with a duration of instantaneous and that deals damage, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to deal half as much damage again at the start of your next turn.

Secure Spell
When you cast a spell you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to make that casting of the spell immune to Counterspell, Dispel Magic and Remove Curse as well as gain advantage on any saving throws to maintain concentration on that spell.

Now you probably arent the DM if youre looking for sorc build inspiration but still, might be helpful to you.

[tiornys]

The best metamagic are subtle and empower. Empower provide a significant improvement in spell damage and make then more reliable (usually better than quicken and twin, because way less expensive, you can usually use it every time you cast a damage spell) , it's also cheap and therefor spammable.
Both Twin and Quicken are much stronger than Empower. Empower just makes a mediocre class of spells a little bit better (and arguably isn't even worth the sorcery point there). Twin and Quicken, like Subtle, allow you to break the rules limiting spellcasting. Quicken breaks the rules on action economy. Twin can break both action economy AND concentration.

[Jervis]

I've got it! Stick a silver piece to your shadow blade; now the whole thing is worth at least 1 sp!

Dont forget that you can’t use magic weapons for it because magic items don’t have a listed price in this edition. Meaning +3 Vorpal swords aren’t worth at least 1SP

[Damon_Tor]

right, a single casting that you can give away...that can have a value because it has a market. there is no market for a the shadow blade created by the spell, because it cannot be practically traded. if a person can't gain utility from an object...then that object has no value.


1. A thing does not need to be saleable to have value. For example, I happen to own a firearm which I have no legal way to sell. It is, however, insured, as it is a tremendously valuable item.

2. A shadow blade vanishes if it is dropped or thrown, not "when it leaves your hand". It can be handed to other people without issue. This is why a simulacrum can cast shadow blade and hand it off to the real guy. In theory some wizard could charge a guy some amount of money for a shadow blade. As an experiment, next time you're playing a wizard try this: tell the fighter you'll cast Shadow Blade for him for 1sp right before a fight. I guarantee he would take you up on it. Ergo, a shadow blade is worth at least 1sp.

[kazaryu]

1. A thing does not need to be saleable to have value. For example, I happen to own a firearm which I have no legal way to sell. It is, however, insured, as it is a tremendously valuable item. being legally barred from selling an item, is not the same as being unable to sell an item due to a lack of utility. for a firearm, it retains its value because other people still might want it, and you'd be able to trade it to them. the shadow blade can't be given to anyone, or it vanishes. as a result, people besides the caster don't gain any utiltiy from the blade. the blade has no value to them.


2. A shadow blade vanishes if it is dropped or thrown, not "when it leaves your hand". It can be handed to other people without issue. This is why a simulacrum can cast shadow blade and hand it off to the real guy. In theory some wizard could charge a guy some amount of money for a shadow blade. As an experiment, next time you're playing a wizard try this: tell the fighter you'll cast Shadow Blade for him for 1sp right before a fight. I guarantee he would take you up on it. Ergo, a shadow blade is worth at least 1sp. thats a disingenuous reading of the rules, and you know it. the intent is clearly that the blade vanishes at the end of the turn if its not in your hand. But now we're getting into RaW vs RaI territory, which really isn't my purpose.

even if we grant the interpretation, you're still not talking about the value of the blade. you're not selling the blade, you're renting it. and while typically the cost to rent something is scales somewhat proportionally with that objects value, the cost to rent still doesn't directly reflect the objects value. Again, im not saying you shouldn't rule that shadow blade works for BB/GfB (which i do). Im saying that its not the only intellectually honest way to rule it. its perfectly reasonable to decide that the temporary blade has a value of 0.

[RSP]

I’ve always liked the idea of “if the caster had to lose 1SP every time they cast it, would they still cast it” as the barometer of whether it’s worth 1SP or not.

I hold that the caster would make this trade (if they’re a build that would select this spell in the first place).

[meandean]

A shadow blade vanishes if it is dropped or thrown, not "when it leaves your hand". It can be handed to other people without issue.Okay, if we're gonna get this crazy, it also says "you" are proficient with the weapon, and "you" get advantage in dim light or darkness. So even if you can hand it over to someone else, that person wouldn't be getting those benefits.

(Now, I agree -- and, the funny thing is, I don't think anyone disagrees, including the guy who wrote the rules and admitted that it'd technically be making an exception -- that it's logical to allow the SCAG cantrips with shadow blade. The 1 sp restriction is because they didn't want you to be able to cast BB/GFB with your arcane focus or component pouch. By game mechanics, the way you accomplish that is to include a component with a monetary value. This of course prompts the question: Why would you want to cast BB/GFB that way? To keep a hand free off-turn for some reason? I don't know if this was something that anyone ever actually attempted to do, or if it just bothered them that you could theoretically cast a "weapon cantrip" without a weapon. But anyway, what they cared about was that you had a weapon; shadow blade is a weapon; thus, the spirit of the rule is to allow it. It's just that it's also a logical argument to say that the letter of the rule doesn't allow it.)

[Witty Username]

Maybe there were alot of Monks in playtest?

[Jak]

The more I see rules like this, the more it feels like the creators are trying to stifle creativity. Or rather, stifle dual wielding.
Dual wielding is already less than decent in almost every instance I can think of.
You might want a dual wielding druid, since they don't get extra attack, but you can't twin shillelagh, because it has to target a creature.
You can't simply cast shadowblade twice and have two, because concentration.
A monk can "dual wield" their hands or feet, but it's still not good dpr.
Even a fighter can't be bothered to dual wield with their multiple attacks.


The exception that proves the rule is a bladesinger dual wielding a shortsword and a shadowblade, and melee-cantrip-ing as part of the attack action and using their bonus action to use their shadowblade.
And admittedly, it would make sense that the only reason this works is because it's so convoluted that no one on the dev team thought of it in time to nerf it.



:smallyuk:
And while I'm thinking about it: is it too much to ask for a few stinkin' weapon properties? Like, anything at all to differentiate between a longsword and a waraxe? Even if it's in feat form?

[Kane0]

The more I see rules like this, the more it feels like the creators are trying to stifle creativity. Or rather, stifle dual wielding.
Dual wielding is already less than decent in almost every instance I can think of.
You might want a dual wielding druid, since they don't get extra attack, but you can't twin shillelagh, because it has to target a creature.
You can't simply cast shadowblade twice and have two, because concentration.
A monk can "dual wield" their hands or feet, but it's still not good dpr.
Even a fighter can't be bothered to dual wield with their multiple attacks.


*Checks notes again*


Base rules:
- Two-Weapon Fighting works with light melee weapons, natural weapons and unarmed strikes
- Thrown weapons can be drawn freely like ammunition (which also helps you draw multiple weapons for TWFing)

Two-Weapon Fighting Style:
- You can use two-weapon fighting even when the melee weapons you are wielding are not light

Dual Wielder Feat:
- When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
- When you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature cannot benefit from Advantage on melee attacks against you until the start of your next turn.
- You can use two-weapon fighting as part of the attack action instead of using a bonus action. If you do so you cannot also use your Bonus Action to make a weapon attack on the same turn.
- While wielding a different weapon in each hand, if you make an opportunity attack you can make an attack with each weapon you are wielding against the same target (with the usual TWF restrictions).


Run those by your DM.

[Jak]

*Checks notes again*


Base rules:
- Two-Weapon Fighting works with light melee weapons, natural weapons and unarmed strikes
- Thrown weapons can be drawn freely like ammunition (which also helps you draw multiple weapons for TWFing)

Two-Weapon Fighting Style:
- You can use two-weapon fighting even when the melee weapons you are wielding are not light

Dual Wielder Feat:
- When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
- When you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature cannot benefit from Advantage on melee attacks against you until the start of your next turn.
- You can use two-weapon fighting as part of the attack action instead of using a bonus action. If you do so you cannot also use your Bonus Action to make a weapon attack on the same turn.
- While wielding a different weapon in each hand, if you make an opportunity attack you can make an attack with each weapon you are wielding against the same target (with the usual TWF restrictions).


Run those by your DM.

These actually look cool, and differentiate between styles, rather than just give a damage buff.
Thank you.

[Grondsmash]

I have yet to think of a spell where Extend is useful; What's 20 minutes instead of 10 good for, or 2 minutes instead of 1? Maybe 16 hours of mage armor is...something? I guess you could at least cast that at the start of your long rest and have it up for the start of the next day.


The Extend has far greater abilities. You limit it to only one doubling, but that is not what the power says. Each 1 point doubles, to a maximum of 24 hours. If it was only once it would say only once, and "with a limit of 24 hours" would be added, usually in parentheses.

"When you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer. you can spend 1 sorcery point to double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours."

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy