Sorcbard?

[werescythe]

So I've seen a lot of charisma themed multiclass builds. Sorcadin, Sorlock (usually coffeelock), Palalock (usually paladin and hexblade) and Bardlock (usually hexblade with valor or sword bard), but I haven't seen much in the way of a sorcerer bard (sorcard?).

So I was wondering a couple things:
1) Is this because there's some sort of conflict between the two classes?
2) If not, are there some good sorcerer bard combination?

[ChaosStar]

I think it might be because both Sorcerer and Bard are full casters.

[solidork]

I'm thinking about taking some levels on my Glamour Bard since I've got a fire theme going on and want Firebolt and Control Flames - the problem is none of the official subclasses work. I once again am wishing that there was a Fey Bloodline - I think Wizards thinks Wild Magic has this covered, but it 100% does not fit the tone of any character I want to play.

[animorte]

I personally enjoy the random shenanigans of Spirits Bard/Wild Magic Sorcerer.

Otherwise, yes. They're both full casters and don't benefit well enough from multiclassing each other to warrant the slower spell progression. Paladin and Warlock are both different enough to gain a greater amount of benefits.

Of course you could try a gestalt SorcBard.

[OracularPoet]

I like Sorcerer 1 / Bard X to get defense (CON save, Shield, Absorb Elements). AE is a waste at 1st level, but it's good for future-proofing.

[tiornys]

When you multiclass a full caster you're looking to shore up major weaknesses and/or achieve strong synergies in as few levels as possible. As a dip, Sorcerer mainly offers the Shield and Absorb Elements spells plus a level 1 subclass benefit and 4 cantrips from a pretty good cantrip list. You can also get CON save proficiency if you're willing to start Sorcerer, although this can lead to a pretty anemic level 1 character so you mostly see this on builds that start above level 1.

Conversely, Bard offers very little of note on a dip vs. many other options. Light armor proficiency is nowhere as good as medium armor + shield proficiency, the Bard cantrip list isn't great, and they don't have either of the premier defensive reaction spells, so you're mostly getting an extra skill training, Cha mod Inspiration dice per long rest, and some decent first level spells. Contrast Warlock where Hexblade is of course the premier dip option but Genie, Undead, and Fathomless also give stronger benefits than a Bard level. This is why you don't see Bard being dipped by other Cha classes--if Bard is involved, it's generally the main class and dipping something else.

Bard mainly wants four things from a dip: medium armor + shield proficiency, access to Shield and Absorb Elements, and access to better offensive cantrips. No single level of another class covers all four of these, but Hexblade comes close missing only Absorb Elements. That's why it's such a common dip. That said, Sorcerer covers everything except medium armor + shield proficiency and is also a great dip for a Bard, and you do in fact see optimized Bard builds that dip Sorcerer (https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-build-college-of-eloquence-bard/).

[Frogreaver]

I like Sorcerer 1 / Bard X to get defense (CON save, Shield, Absorb Elements). AE is a waste at 1st level, but it's good for future-proofing.

Similar for Bard 1. healing word, silvery barbs, dissonant whispers, sleep (great early game spell) and charisma mod uses of bardic inspiration a day.

[ChaosStar]

Bard mainly wants four things from a dip: medium armor + shield proficiency, access to Shield and Absorb Elements, and access to better offensive cantrips.
Bard can get Medium Armor and Shields themselves via Valor Subclass or just medium armor via Swords Subclass.

[werescythe]

So what's you opinion on say a 1-2 level Divine Soul Sorcerer and then going Lore Bard?

[XmonkTad]

So what's you opinion on say a 1-2 level Divine Soul Sorcerer and then going Lore Bard?

Depends on the role you're trying to fill. Party arcanist? You'll have issues by being behind on spell level. Support? You should be pretty good, but what is Sorc adding other than Con proficiency?

[Silly Name]

So what's you opinion on say a 1-2 level Divine Soul Sorcerer and then going Lore Bard?

The most important thing you can pick from Sorcerer as a dip is Metamagic options. Depending on party composition, Twinned Spell is an excellent option for support characters. Back in a campaign some years ago, one player was playing a Draconic Sorcerer focused on blasting, but picked up Haste and Twinned Spell to fill out his concentration slot by powering up the party's melee frontliners. Turned a lot of "hard" encounters into a fine red mist with that.

The question I'd ask is "what do you want to build?" Both Divine Soul Sorcerers and Lore Bards are great for support and buffing, but they can also cover other party roles, being quite flexible in how you build them. I don't know if multiclassing those two leads to a better support than just sticking to either class or some other multiclass, but it would help to have a clear concept in mind so that you can weight options against each other.

[animorte]

So what's you opinion on say a 1-2 level Divine Soul Sorcerer and then going Lore Bard?
Divine Soul Sorcerer is my personal favorite! This with Lore Bard gives you so much access to so many different spell lists.

That being said:

The most important thing you can pick from Sorcerer as a dip is Metamagic options.
Going 3 levels will give you all that you could need from the Sorcerer class and still get to level 17 as Bard for your 9th level spell, albeit a bit late.

[tiornys]

Bard can get Medium Armor and Shields themselves via Valor Subclass or just medium armor via Swords Subclass.
They can, and if they do then they no longer need that from a dip. However, several other Bard subclasses are very popular and very good so going this route carries definite costs.

[RogueJK]

Depends on the role you're trying to fill. Party arcanist? You'll have issues by being behind on spell level. Support? You should be pretty good, but what is Sorc adding other than Con proficiency?

Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Bard X gets you:

+CON save proficiency

+Access to defensive spells: Shield and Absorb Elements

+Access to a potent support/buff spell: Bless

+Access to four cantrips from both the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists, to boost the Bard's lackluster cantrip options; especially stuff like Guidance plus a good ranged attack cantrip like Chill Touch/Fire Bolt/etc., and potentially BB/GFB

+Access to Favored by the Gods for +2d4 to a saving throw (like an important Concentration check) each short rest


Not totally optimal, due to the delay to your Bard spellcasting and abilities (especially on Valor/Swords), but certainly a workable option.

[Rukelnikov]

Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Bard X gets you:

CON save proficiency
Access to defensive spells: Shield and Absorb Elements
Access to a potent support/buff spell: Bless
Access to four cantrips from both the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists, to boost the Bard's lackluster cantrip options; especially stuff like Guidance plus a good attack cantrip like Chill Touch/Fire Bolt/etc.
Access to Favored by the Gods for +2d4 to a saving throw (like an important Concentration check) each short rest


Not totally optimal, due to the delay to your Bard spellcasting and abilities, but certainly a workable option.

I think that's the main point. If you are going for a more martial build, delaying EA for one level sucks, but once you catch up, its not that terrible. As a full caster though, you catch up at class lvl 17, so most likely, you will never catch up. Whatever you are getting has to be huge for it to be a mechanically worthwhile investment, since every level you get before caster lvl 17 the price you paid for that dip keeps going up. (ie, by lvl 5 you are losing LTH, HP, Plant Growth, in exchange for Con Saves, Shield, AE and Bless, its an ok trade. By lvl 17 you are paying Foresight, Prismatic Wall, True Polymorph, for the same return, by lvl 18 you are paying Wish for the same return)

[MrStabby]

I think there is a focus on Divine Soul, but honestly there are a lot of other interesting options for a one level sorcerer dip. A few things I would proffer:

1) Aberrant Mind. The telepathy is really useful in some situations - if you are going bard though and with a number of spells that need you to be able to communicate with a target this can be useful. Generally though a Bard gets the most out of being able to communicate from all the classes. With potential expertise in intimidaion, deception or persuasion the more versatile your voice is the better.

2) Shadow Sorcerer. 120ft Darkvision isn't bad but the ability to dodge death is really nice. This gets extra value for a bard that might be closer to the frontline than the base sorcerer, but also when things go south for the party you are likely to have some healing spells than a raw shadow sorcerer so it is situationally a bit better.

3) Er, actually there were probably just two interesting ones

[Kane0]

Of course you could try a gestalt SorcBard.

One time we got a chance to gestalt and everyone mixed Cha casters. Can confirm that is a damn potent combo.

[animorte]

One time we got a chance to gestalt and everyone mixed Cha casters. Can confirm that is a damn potent combo.

Charisma has the best variety in multiclassing/gestalt hands-down. Though Cleric/Druid is also mega-stronk.