Can a cleric destroy an Undead Spirit?

[mangoduck]

How does a cleric's Destroy Undead feature work with an Undead Spirit summoned with the Summon Undead spell? The Undead Spirit block shows a challenge rating of "-". Is there a generic rule that covers this situation? Does "-" mean, like, 0, so it can be destroyed? Or does Destroy Undead not work on a creature that doesn't have a CR?

[Amnestic]

I don't believe they've specified anything for it, but I wouldn't treat "-" as "0". To steal a line from Yugioh, having no level isn't the same being level 0.

I'd just give them a CR equal to the spell slot expended. Someone online did a table (https://i.imgur.com/DdUMlcl.jpg) with an estimated CR calculation and CR=Spell Slot is roughly correct (though it breaks down a bit the higher you go, like most things in 5e).

[Psyren]

I'd just give them a CR equal to the spell slot expended.

This is probably what I'd go with as well.

[Rukelnikov]

I don't believe they've specified anything for it, but I wouldn't treat "-" as "0". To steal a line from Yugioh, having no level isn't the same being level 0.

I'd just give them a CR equal to the spell slot expended.


This is probably what I'd go with as well.

Yeah, this is a simple and accurate enough solution.

[stoutstien]

I'd go for CR of every other spell slot rounded down. Clerics cap out on destroy at CR 4.

[Psyren]

I'd go for CR of every other spell slot rounded down. Clerics cap out on destroy at CR 4.

Eh, I don't think a 8th- or 8th-level Undead Spirit should be instantly destructible. The cap on the ability is fine, and the ability to upcast into a spirit that can't be instantly destroyed is also fine imo.

[stoutstien]

Eh, I don't think a 8th- or 8th-level Undead Spirit should be instantly destructible. The cap on the ability is fine, and the ability to upcast into a spirit that can't be instantly destroyed is also fine imo.
If you go for slot=CR then up casting it at all practically makes it immune to destroy undead. Clerics get destroy CR 30potential at lv 14 and doesn't get CR 4 until 17. It's already supper niche so it should at least be applicable with that.
Probably some middle ground but personally I'd rather support the more limited option that doesn't allow getting am additional action pool almost as powerful as a lv appropriate PC added to the party.

*I don't think basing it off CR was a good idea from the start. Too many ways it could get funky like this interaction. I'd rather base it off failing the save by X value means destroyed or something along those lines.*

[Chronos]

Destroying undead isn't supposed to be a major combat power center for a cleric. Turning undead is, but destroy is just for saving time dealing with trash undead that are so little threat that they're not worth spending game time on. Introducing undead that are too powerful to be instantly destroyed isn't a meaningful nerf to the cleric.

[Rukelnikov]

If you go for slot=CR then up casting it at all practically makes it immune to destroy undead. Clerics get destroy CR 30potential at lv 14 and doesn't get CR 4 until 17. It's already supper niche so it should at least be applicable with that.
Probably some middle ground but personally I'd rather support the more limited option that doesn't allow getting am additional action pool almost as powerful as a lv appropriate PC added to the party.

*I don't think basing it off CR was a good idea from the start. Too many ways it could get funky like this interaction. I'd rather base it off failing the save by X value means destroyed or something along those lines.*

Summon Undead is Lock and Wiz only, and they both have many other summon spells. Giving Summon Undead a specific weakness the other summons don't have basically only harms Necros. And Summon Undead is pretty good to "be a necro" when your DM is picky about handling Animate Dead. If its just destroying 3rd or 4th level spell, I think its ok, but having an 8th level spell be almost auto destroyed (undead summon roll +0 wis saves) seems disheartening. They would still be turned, and that's a middle ground where clerics get something out of their feature but necros don't get auto screwed.

[stoutstien]

Well alternatively we could just calculate it's CR using the DMG rules. Off the cuff I'd say from a 3rd lv slot it looks like a CR 1-2.l and goes up by .5 per 2 slot lvs. Kinda looks like a glass cannon with a high offense but low defensive score.

[Amnestic]

Well alternatively we could just calculate it's CR using the DMG rules. Off the cuff I'd say from a 3rd lv slot it looks like a CR 1-2.l and goes up by .5 per 2 slot lvs. Kinda looks like a glass cannon with a high offense but low defensive score.

The table I posted earlier appears to do just that, though it'll never be 100% accurate due to the special features/abilities.

[stoutstien]

The table I posted earlier appears to do just that, though it'll never be 100% accurate due to the special features/abilities.

Aye. I missed that due to being on phone lol. Curious how the CR system really doesn't work when there is large gap between offense and defense. I'm also working under the assumption that NPC rarely have destroy let alone turn undead but I tend to like the summonX spells often enough so this is more of a lean in the favor of PC angle.

[Rukelnikov]

The table I posted earlier appears to do just that, though it'll never be 100% accurate due to the special features/abilities.


Aye. I missed that due to being on phone lol. Curious how the CR system really doesn't work when there is large gap between offense and defense. I'm also working under the assumption that NPC rarely have destroy let alone turn undead but I tend to like the summonX spells often enough so this is more of a lean in the favor of PC angle.

Using the quick n dirty table I came up with pretty different numbers though, I may have miscalced it, but I ended up with a somewhat consistent CR = Slot-1

3rd level was CR 1 for me (DCR 1/8|OCR 2 = CR 1/2 + Extra abilities ~= 1)
4th was CR 2 (1/2 | 4 = 2 + Extras, maybe 3? I think its still 2, and don't wanna check the table for immunities n stuff (dont agree with lots of it anyway))
6th was CR 5 (2 | 7 = 4(.5) + Extras ~= 5)

Do note that the att modifier is a big part of the calculation and will depend on the stats of the caster, I considered them being cast when obtained. A lvl 17 Wiz casting the 3rd level version would give:

1/8 | 5 = 1(.5) + Extras ~= 2

But I think that would overcomplicate the things.

Doing CR = Slot -1 seems more or less in line, and is simple.

[Amnestic]

Doing CR = Slot -1 seems more or less in line, and is simple.

Also a fair assessment really. I wouldn't complain either way if that's what the DM decided on.

Is Destroy Undead the only class (or monster?) feature that references challenge rating to have an effect like this? I'm not counting things like wildshape or "conjure X" spells, since those aren't applicable for the "Summon X" spells.

[stoutstien]

Also a fair assessment really. I wouldn't complain either way if that's what the DM decided on.

Is Destroy Undead the only class (or monster?) feature that references challenge rating to have an effect like this? I'm not counting things like wildshape or "conjure X" spells, since those aren't applicable for the "Summon X" spells.

Polymorph and change shape/shapechange I believe are the two big ones.

[solidork]

I was racking my brain because I was sure there was something that created a creature with a preset stat block like this that did specify a CR and just found out that it's the Drakewarden. Their Drake pet has CR equal to their proficiency bonus.

I think the proposals of basing it off of the spell level makes sense.

[mangoduck]

Thank you everyone! This discussion really helped.

[Psyren]

If you go for slot=CR then up casting it at all practically makes it immune to destroy undead. Clerics get destroy CR 30potential at lv 14 and doesn't get CR 4 until 17. It's already supper niche so it should at least be applicable with that.
Probably some middle ground but personally I'd rather support the more limited option that doesn't allow getting am additional action pool almost as powerful as a lv appropriate PC added to the party.

I could certainly see a middle ground between CR = spell level and CR = half spell level, but reminder that Destroy Undead is intended to be used against trivial undead encounters and has been for multiple editions now. The more challenging ones are simply Turned.


*I don't think basing it off CR was a good idea from the start. Too many ways it could get funky like this interaction. I'd rather base it off failing the save by X value means destroyed or something along those lines.*

I dunno... The BBEG getting insta-deleted on a nat 1 doesn't seem like it would be a positive for the game.

[stoutstien]

I could certainly see a middle ground between CR = spell level and CR = half spell level, but reminder that Destroy Undead is intended to be used against trivial undead encounters and has been for multiple editions now. The more challenging ones are simply Turned.



I dunno... The BBEG getting insta-deleted on a nat 1 doesn't seem like it would be a positive for the game.

Most major undead are either immune to Turn/destroy undead or at least have advantage to it or magic overall. So worse case it has 1/400 chance to get destroyed. not to mention the major undead you'd wish you could do this probably have both LS and a decent Wis saves.

It's not perfect by any means but anything based on CR is just not to my taste.

[Psyren]

Most major undead are either immune to Turn/destroy undead or at least have advantage to it or magic overall. So worse case it has 1/400 chance to get destroyed. not to mention the major undead you'd wish you could do this probably have both LS and a decent Wis saves.

It's not perfect by any means but anything based on CR is just not to my taste.

I'd rather base it on CR because it's much more consistent. You won't get a challenging undead randomly being deleted by a bad save that way. Sure a lot of the powerful ones have turn resistance, but not all do (as an extreme example, Nightwalkers are CR 20 but have a -1 Wis save and no Turn Resistance.)

[sithlordnergal]

It has no CR, Destroy Undead won't work on t. No need to give a nerf to a spell that isn't that amazing to begin with.