Resilient (DEX) vs. Tough for a Path of the Totem Warrior Barbarian?

[Vorenus]

I'm a DM, looking for advice to give to one of my players. The player in question is running a Half-Orc Barbarian (Path of the Totem Warrior). He just hit 12th level and bumped his CON to 18; his STR is already at 20. He's planning ahead for 16th level, the next time he gets an ASI, and he is debating between taking Resilient(DEX) or Tough as a Feat in lieu of an ASI, then using his 19th level ASI to max out CON to 20 (thus he will get the full benefit of the Barbarian capstone feature Primal Champion at level 20). I think that either Tough or Resliient(DEX) are good options. His DEX is currently a 13, so getting Resilient(DEX) will raise that to 14, which means his Unarmored Defense AC will improve by +1, his DEX Saving Throws will improve by +1 IN ADDITION to now gaining the full Proficiency Bonus (currently +4), his Initiative will improve by +1, and his Stealth (he's proficient) will improve by +1. I tend to think that making more DEX Saving Throws will mean he will avoid or soak up even more damage than an extra 24 Hit Points (40 at 20th level). But I personally don't have a lot of experience playing Barbarians, so I would like to hear from the GITP Hive Mind about what everyone's opinion is on this choice. What do you think?

Thank you.

--Vorenus

[RogueJK]

What's their WIS score?

DEX save effects tend to just deal damage. The Barbarian already has ways to soak that damage. And they already have Advantage on many DEX saves, thanks to Danger Sense.

On the other hand, WIS save effects tend to totally remove them from combat, or even worse, turn the hard-hitting nigh-unkillable damage machine against the party.


As a result, for a Barbarian, Resilient WIS is typically a much better option than Resilient DEX.

However, if they already have an even WIS score, that would change the calculation a bit. But I probably still wouldn't choose Resilient DEX at all. If they're wanting to round out their odd DEX score for the mentioned benefits, a different DEX half feat could be worth exploring instead, like Skill Expert or Slasher. Or I might recommend something like Lucky, which could help on big DEX saves as well as WIS saves.

[stoutstien]

Of the two res dex but lots of other options to consider depending on campaign style and weapon choices. Like slasher works really well for barbs basically allowing them to occasionally cancel out Reckless attack's negative rider plus has a soft CC option which the class really needs.

[Vorenus]

Currently his WIS save is +2; +1 from WIS 12, and +1 from a Ring of Protection.

Oh, I forgot to mention my favorite part about this player's Barbarian character, which is the character's name: Overkill. That's right, Overkill the Barbarian. I love it.

[Vorenus]

In case anyone cares, here are his full Ability Scores as of Level 12: STR 20 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 10.

[RogueJK]

In that case, I'd go with Slasher (if they're using a Slashing weapon) or Skill Expert.

Gets all the mentioned benefits of rounding out DEX, including another +1 to DEX saves. But they'll likely appreciate the other benefits of Slasher or the additional skill Proficiency and Expertise more than the additional +4 to already Advantaged and Resisted DEX save damage effects.

[Corran]

Hmm, totem barbarians get a lot of damage resistances when they rage. Not to everything, but to most things. For simplicity let's assume resistance to everything all the time (which is unrealistic, but let's use this to examine the most fvourable case for tough). Tough will eventually give you 40 hp. Under the initial assumption this is 80 hp effectively. Resilient dex will increase save chance against damaging spells by 30% eventually (given DEX 13 currently). Using our initial assumption, ie resistance to all damage always, the barbarian will need to be targeted by 1066 points of damage that targets dex saves for resilient dex to catch up to tough. Assuming no resistance ever, then the barbarian will need to be targeted by 266 damage that targets DEX saves to match tough.

What does this tell us? Nothing. We can use a more reasonable set of assumptions where X% is how often the barb tends to be target by dex saves damage they can resist, and Y% would be how often they are generally targeted by damage that targets anything that they can resist, and reach a far more reasonable conclusion. But that can be misleading too.

Here is how I would choose. Tough makes me better in something I am already good at. Not only that, the feat has considerable value since a totem barb is almost doubling the effectiveness of every one of these hp. But, if an enemy plans to defeat me by eating at my HP, that's almost always a win for me (even if I end up losing, the chances that I lost because I didn't get tough are very low, so I still won tactically, but I lost because I was ovrwhlemed). I would fear more enemies who try to defeat me by other means. Barbarians are melee specialists, so one way you can defeat them would be by not allowing them to get into melee combat. Some of these ways include restraining effects, some of which target dex saves. This is a weak spot and I'd generally consider it more dangerous to be beaten because someone targets my weaknesses than because someone managed to chew through all of my HP (which even if they manage to do, that means I did my job right). Hence I would go for resilient dex. Bonus to initiative, stealth and acrobatics are also good. +1 is not much, but it will rarely mean that you get to activate rage before you can be dealt damage that bypasses your resistances, and even more rarely other things like not breaking stealth or not being slowed down by hazzardous terrain.

In other words, most times it's enough to only lose once. I'd be more likely to contribute to such a loss by having someone exploit my weaknesses than because the enemies were strong enough to overcome my good defenses and simultaneously the rest of theparty but at the same time not strong enough to not have done the same because I had the tough feat.

ps: I'd fear effects that target wis saves more than ones that target dex.

[strangebloke]

If this is a bear barb, he's already pretty tanky against the kinds of things dexterity saves defend against, and he already has advantage. It's not bad at all but it is overkill...

So very on brand?

With that said I still prefer it to tough. HP doesn't do anything until it stops you from hitting zero and this guy has like twice as much as the rest of the party already even without rage.

I would tend to go for piercer or slasher. They're fun

[bid]

In case anyone cares, here are his full Ability Scores as of Level 12: STR 20 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 10.
Was Con18 typo'd out?

Resilient(Wis), then round up Dex14 / Wis14.
Ending with Str24 / Con22 is good enough.

OTOH if he's getting hit so hard that he always ends up on the floor, he could do better with an extra 60 hp.

[Kane0]

For a higher level barbarian i'd be less worried about increasing my defenses against HP damage and more worried abojt defenses protecting me from magic and conditions, so i'd prefer something like resilient (wis), lucky or even mage slayer.

[Keravath]

Was Con18 typo'd out?

Resilient(Wis), then round up Dex14 / Wis14.
Ending with Str24 / Con22 is good enough.

OTOH if he's getting hit so hard that he always ends up on the floor, he could do better with an extra 60 hp.

I'd tend to agree with this suggestion. Resilient dex plays to what the character is already pretty strong at - a barbarian gets advantage on dex saves that they can see coming.

However, the biggest weakness of high level fighters, including barbarians is usually a low wisdom save. They have a +2 - this doesn't go very far against DC17 or DC19 spells that the bad guys start to throw around in tier 3 and 4. At least with proficiency in wisdom saves they have a significantly better chances of making that save. The +2 goes to +7 or +8 for proficiency of 5 or 6.

It can be tough on the party when the raging barbarian fails a dominate person saving throw and starts attacking the party - or even fails a hold person spell so that every attack against them is with advantage and every hit within 5' is a crit. Even a raging barbarian doesn't last long.

[Pex]

Resilient Wisdom is the better option. I speak from experience. Played a high level barbarian. Failing against a fear effect sucks donkey big time. Of course it doesn't guarantee making a Wisdom save, but the better odds makes a difference.

That said go with Toughness. Even with making your DX you're taking half damage. If Bear then quart damage. However, the extra hit points count against other damage effects even from weapon attacks. Because of rage resistance +2 hit points per level is effectively +4 hit points per level. He will not die.

I played a barbarian from level 3 to 20 (with multiclassing but for discussion only bear barbarian matters here). Through out the entire campaign I only dropped three times. First time was at level 6 with an unfortunate bad luck failed a save against a banshee attack. I got better. Second time was level 14 due to damage attrition. I had to walk through a humungous gelatinous cube. I wouldn't have dropped at all if the cleric hadn't made a mistake going for glory instead of the more important support he was providing which had nothing to do with healing. He had originally cast Wall of Fire that allowed a clear path to walk through the cube. However, the player got jealous other party members were able to attack the BBEG we were supposed to fight with spells, so he dropped Wall of Fire for another concentration spell which the BBEG made the save anyway. Meanwhile, the cube closed in on me slowing me down and the damage kept coming. The third time was level 18 fighting githyanki and everything was psychic damage I had no defense.

Barbarians are literally meat shields. Their hit points are their power. This is not to say every barbarian must take Toughness, but if a player is considering it it is worth it. Still, Resilient Wisdom is better despite having an even Wisdom score.

[Vorenus]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I'll share them with the barbarian player. I agree that Resilient(WIS) is probably the best option, but I think the player actually likes having a significant weakness in that regard. He has even said, I think jokingly, on a couple of occasions that the other players had better figure out a way to take him down if he ever gets mind controlled. He joked about how Batman had a plan to take down every member of the Justice League. But anyway I agree that Resilient (WIS) is probably the best option, and I will present that advice to the player.

Oh, and I apologize for the typo above in the quick stat line I listed. The CON should have been 18, not 14. So his CON will be 20 by level 20, just in time for the bump to 24 from Primal Champion.

(Also, and this is not necessarily relevant to this discussion, but just as a general "for your situational awareness," I have all the books for the Epic Legacy content published by 2C Gaming that takes the game to level 30, and thus far all of the players say they're on board with that plan, so I suppose the Barbarian character can pick up Resilient (WIS) sometime after level 20 if it comes to that.)

Thanks again to everyone for your suggestions.

[Chronos]

Probably not applicable in this case (unless he takes Resilient (Wis) and then gets another ASI), but another option to even out an odd ability score is to even out two odd ability scores.