Lets Optimize A Wildshaping Barbarian

[strangebloke]

My wife's been playing this character for a couple years now, and is now at 15th level. I am going to walk you through my thoughts on this matter and see what you all think.

The Basic Concept

So most of a barbarian's class features work in Wildshape. Well, arguably, anyway. Wildshape says that "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." I would argue that since the mind of the barbarian is the same, they can still rage, still attack recklessly, still gain the benefits of their unarmored AC. That's going to be my assumption for the rest of this post and thread, and I'm not really interested in arguing the point. Lets assume that's true.

Progression

At level 4, 2 levels of each seems pretty obvious. I'd argue that at this level specifically, this is among the best melee builds in the game. Reckless multiattack with rage bonus damage is incredibly solid, and the durability is off the charts. Wildshape also grants us access to a lot of utility both in and out of combat. Need a climb speed? Giant spider. Blindsight? Snake or spider. Want to lockdown a target? Rocktopus. Just want raw speed? Lots of options there.

But from there things get complicated. Barbarian or Druid?

Moon Druid 6 gets you CR 2 beasts and better spellcasting, but if you're meaning to use rage the spell casting is less useful, and in isolation the CR 2 forms aren't that much better than the CR 2 forms. Mostly, they have more HP. There's an argument that the optimal path here is just forgetting about that embarrassing barbarian phase and sprinting to conjure animals, with rage being a backup plan more than anything... but that's just another way of saying straight druid is better without barbarian levels, which lol I think we all knew.

If we instead go deeper into Barbarian, we get a grab bag of reasonably useful stuff (subclass ability, danger sense, and fast movement) and also extra attack, the 'main' feature at fifth level. Extra attack makes a lot of those CR 2 forms better (giant boar, giant elk, rhinoceros, Quetzalcoatlus) but it doesn't do much for the CR 1 form. The switch between a brown bear's multiattack (claws and bite for a total of 3d6+6) versus a Dire Wolf's Extra attack (bite + bite for a total of 4d6+6) isn't that large, but something like a giant boar at CR 2 goes from Tusks (4d6+3) to double Tusks (8d6+6).

So what I'm saying is, this build seems like its overpowered in levels 1-4, is a tanky mobile melee character with some utility but low damage levels 5-10, and then emerges in T3 as actually pretty dang strong once you have both Druid 6 and Barbarian 5. After that you can do whatever. Go back to barbarian for another subclass feature, pounce, awareness, or ASI? Go to Druid 8 for flying forms? Do whatever! Even Barbarian 9 gives you +1 damage on your rage uses. I think an 8/8 split at least is a good idea from the perspective of optimizing for combat wildshape. With four levels for flex if you want a level 10 barbarian subclass feature or elemental wildshape or some fighter levels.

Further Optimization

Race: I don't see how race matters much here. Generically strong races like Shadar-Kai or the new kobold are good. Other things like Dragonborn retaining their breath attack in wildshape are a lot more questionable.

ASIs/Feats: One thing I feel confident saying is that you don't need to worry about boosting any stats. The goal here is to be a beatstick in combat while transformed. You could probably dump STR and DEX entirely if you really wanted.

Feats, though are interesting. GWM might be worth it purely for the Cleave effect occasionally giving you an extra heavy natural weapon swing. Sentinel is probably better overall for the "situational extra attack" thing though. Inspiring Leader arguably gives you THP that carries over to wildshape. Piercer/Crusher/Slasher all have potential utility, especially if you want to fixate on a specific form like say a Lion. Beyond that I think you're just looking at generic feats like Mobile and Lucky. Am I missing anything?

Subclasses

Berserker seems bizarrely good here. Without PAM giving you easy BA attacks, Berserker stands out as one of the few ways to do that, and a big fat 4d8+6 attack as a BA feels really good. The immunity to fear and charm is solid as well. You could maybe argue the exhaustion only effects your wildshape. Depending on your DM's ruling, this seems potentially very good.
Zealot is IMO the best overall Barbarian Path, and that remains true here. Not much to say really.
Beast would seem like it should have synergy, but I'm not really convinced. The claws are going to be worse than your other natural weapons at most levels, and the bite is basically a joke with how much HP you already have.
Totem is solid, though I'd actually favor Eagle Totem here. The extra movement is more useful than even more damage mitigation, at least IMO.
Ancestral Guardian lets you be very, very, very annoying and lets you leverage your extremely tanky build and fast movement. 10/10.



Wildshapes: from what I see there are a few major archetypes present here.

Chargers, which have one super high damage attack and thus synergize heavily with extra attack. Elk, Giant Boar, etc. The regular CR 1/4 Elk actually outdamages a brown bear once you get extra attack, though its HP is pretty low.
Pouncers, of which the Lion is easily the best CR 1 option, with way more useful abilities than the tiger in exchange for marginally worse damage. Pouncers tend to have lower damage, but do synergize with extra attack and also can knock enemies prone. Overall, not super exciting.
Grapplers. Lots of creatures have that 'restrain on hit' effect. Giant Constrictor, Giant Rock/Octopus, Crocodile. All have lots of synergy with extra attack, and the restrain effect is strong. Good deal of utility in these forms overall. Main weakness is their slow movement, which level 5 Barbarian and/or longstrider helps a lot with.
Bruisers. Usually with good HP, one or two big attacks, and possibly pack tactics. Bears, Dire Wolves, Giant Hyena.
Weirdos like the Giant Spider, Giant Scorpion and Giant Rocktopus that have a couple traits mentioned above but also a host of random abilities that are situationally useful.


Magic Items
Anything that sets your stat to a value is going to be really good here since you don't have ways of raising the values of your stats conventionally. Barrier Tattoo, Belt of Giant Strength, Amulet of Health. The last one is particularly interesting because of how it interacts with Unarmored AC in Wildshape.

Bracers of Defense are obviously good.

Eldritch claw tattoo unfortunately only effects unarmed strikes, not natural weapons. There's the claw sigil or whatever its called from HotDQ which makes your natural weapons +1, but that's hard to argue for.

Anyone else have ideas? Disagreements? My intent is to turn the above into a handbook or video at some point.

[Amechra]

I'm definitely on the side of getting to Barbarian 5 ASAP (so something like Barbarian 1/Druid 2/Barbarian +4). Also, you left out the Wild Magic Barbarian (which actually seems pretty decent — sure, it's a random grab-bag of abilities, but you get a way to refresh your own spell slots and you get a bunch of things that you can use your bonus action on) and the Storm Herald (hahaha no).

[strangebloke]

I'm definitely on the side of getting to Barbarian 5 ASAP (so something like Barbarian 1/Druid 2/Barbarian +4). Also, you left out the Wild Magic Barbarian (which actually seems pretty decent — sure, it's a random grab-bag of abilities, but you get a way to refresh your own spell slots and you get a bunch of things that you can use your bonus action on) and the Storm Herald (hahaha no).

And the battlerager!! The strongest barbarian!!

But yeah wild magic is solid here particularly because it actually gets features when not raging.

Though I'd strong recommend starting with druid over barbarian. Wis saves are really really good.

[Amechra]

Though I'd strong recommend starting with druid over barbarian. Wis saves are really really good.

Given that you basically don't care about your physical stats, spending a feat on picking up +1 Wis and Wis saves is going to be better than spending it on +1 Con and Con saves.

On top of that, since you're not relying as heavily on Rage, Wis saves aren't as vital as they would be in a straight Barbarian.

[strangebloke]

Given that you basically don't care about your physical stats, spending a feat on picking up +1 Wis and Wis saves is going to be better than spending it on +1 Con and Con saves.

On top of that, since you're not relying as heavily on Rage, Wis saves aren't as vital as they would be in a straight Barbarian.

Counter Counter point, if you're raging do you really care about CON saves? You can - in theory - still get poisoned, but Constitution checks don't come up much outside casters concentrating on spells, which you aren't doing.

Both approaches have their merits. You're not wrong that its a decent feat option on a build that doesn't have much competition for the ASI. If you're planning on taking resilient, WIS is better than DEX.

[Amechra]

Counter Counter point, if you're raging do you really care about CON saves? You can - in theory - still get poisoned, but Constitution checks don't come up much outside casters concentrating on spells, which you aren't doing.

Both approaches have their merits. You're not wrong that its a decent feat option on a build that doesn't have much competition for the ASI. If you're planning on taking resilient, WIS is better than DEX.

I seem to recall that Constitution saving throws are actually some of the most common in the Monster Manual.

There's also the fact that, unlike your Constitution, you can actually ensure that your Wisdom is reliably high. You're going to have a +2 or +3 Con bonus at best while Wildshaped, so why not grab some insurance?

[strangebloke]

I seem to recall that Constitution saving throws are actually some of the most common in the Monster Manual.

There's also the fact that, unlike your Constitution, you can actually ensure that your Wisdom is reliably high. You're going to have a +2 or +3 Con bonus at best while Wildshaped, so why not grab some insurance?

They're common but almost all of them are save or take poison/necrotic damage, which isn't the most concerning thing imo. But you've made good points.

[Sherlockpwns]

I think there is little argument that barbarian to 5 is more important after druid 2; but the big hurdle in my mind is you essentially have two “big fights” per short rest and 1-2 more or so very long rest depending on your current level.

What’s the plan for other fights, where you are out of wild shape or rage? Are you melee? Are you casting low level CC (which is fine, entangle never goes out of style). What weapons? What armor? What feats even?

Given you are kind of incentivized to dump your physical stats, I’d actually consider using spells instead of melee weapons; saving all rages for wild shape time.

As such id also highly rank alert. The sooner you can either rage or wild shape the better. It also seems to fit thematically. With a 12 dex or whatever you end up with you may otherwise find yourself on the wrong side of unwanted attention before you power up.

In the end I’d personally play a wild magic wild man-bear-thing druid. I think it would be a fun mix; maybe even RP it as you are not in control of what you turn into either (instinct takes over and you transform into whatever is helpful). Just all kinds of chaotic nonsense.

I will say though that level 5-10 gap is probably going to feel torturously long; that’s where the majority of games spend the majority of their time. But I do think the pain is really only between 5-7. Once you get extra attack a bunch of CR 1 forms get a major boost.

In particular I think the giant hyena has been overlooked here. It has a bunch more HP that goes a long way when raging and would clock in at 14ac; which is ok for wild forms, it hits as hard as a dire wolf and if you drop someone you can potentially get a third attack. It’s the perfect form for horde breaking. Eat your heart out ranger. At level 7 I would consider this a top form for a Druid / barbarian.

[Spacehamster]

Counter Counter point, if you're raging do you really care about CON saves? You can - in theory - still get poisoned, but Constitution checks don't come up much outside casters concentrating on spells, which you aren't doing.

Both approaches have their merits. You're not wrong that its a decent feat option on a build that doesn't have much competition for the ASI. If you're planning on taking resilient, WIS is better than DEX.

When out of rage you will most likely be concentrating on some spell while in your wild shape tho so still useful. :)

[Gignere]

The other challenge is making your natural attacks magical almost make Druid 6 mandatory, unless your DM works to give you an Insignia of the Claw or something similar.

[Crucius]

Berserker seems bizarrely good here. Without PAM giving you easy BA attacks, Berserker stands out as one of the few ways to do that, and a big fat 4d8+6 attack as a BA feels really good. The immunity to fear and charm is solid as well. You could maybe argue the exhaustion only effects your wildshape. Depending on your DM's ruling, this seems potentially very good.


Worth exploring wild shapes with exhaustion immunity for this. The elementals from Moon Druid 10 are immune to exhaustion, though that means this combo comes online super late (imo).

[strangebloke]

I think there is little argument that barbarian to 5 is more important after druid 2; but the big hurdle in my mind is you essentially have two “big fights” per short rest and 1-2 more or so very long rest depending on your current level.

What’s the plan for other fights, where you are out of wild shape or rage? Are you melee? Are you casting low level CC (which is fine, entangle never goes out of style). What weapons? What armor? What feats even?

Given you are kind of incentivized to dump your physical stats, I’d actually consider using spells instead of melee weapons; saving all rages for wild shape time.

Well, you don't have to dump your physical stats. If the plan is to go to barbarian 5 first you should at least have some 14s in there.

But I think you're underestimating how much mileage Wildshape gets. It lasts for an hour. The situation where you go more than two hours without a short rest seems kind of... weirdly specific? Maybe that is just me however.

Certainly I wouldn't suggest that a barbarian 5/ druid 2 should be primarily using spells.


In particular I think the giant hyena has been overlooked here. It has a bunch more HP that goes a long way when raging and would clock in at 14ac; which is ok for wild forms, it hits as hard as a dire wolf and if you drop someone you can potentially get a third attack. It’s the perfect form for horde breaking. Eat your heart out ranger. At level 7 I would consider this a top form for a Druid / barbarian.

Giant Hyena can, depending on the build, be the highest DPR option at levels 7-11. Getting a bonus action attack as well as a potential reaction from Sentinel or something similar gives you 8d6+12, which is... solid. Not amazing considering all the pre-conditions, but very good compared to say a lion (though the lion has other benefits)

When out of rage you will most likely be concentrating on some spell while in your wild shape tho so still useful. :)
True!

The other challenge is making your natural attacks magical almost make Druid 6 mandatory, unless your DM works to give you an Insignia of the Claw or something similar.
IMX this is less of a problem than you'd expect. You are still a barbarian, you can still fight without wildshape. It's not ideal but the number of non-magic resistant/immune creatures is lower than people think.

Worst case scenario you get someone to cast magic weapon on you.

Worth exploring wild shapes with exhaustion immunity for this. The elementals from Moon Druid 10 are immune to exhaustion, though that means this combo comes online super late (imo).
If you can just absorb the exhaustion on the beast form its really not a big deal. 1 level of exhaustion is nothing. It's only when you have multiple encounters that things get bad.

[Amechra]

I have a feeling that using wild shape to "absorb" exhaustion isn't going to fly at most tables, since the RAW for wild shape is that it doesn't interact with Conditions. Definitely something to check with your DM before you build your character.

[strangebloke]

I have a feeling that using wild shape to "absorb" exhaustion isn't going to fly at most tables, since the RAW for wild shape is that it doesn't interact with Conditions. Definitely something to check with your DM before you build your character.

Yeah it's more than a bit dodgy, particularly because of how many features from the barbarian class carry over. You have to argue that frenzy is a mental state and works according to the RAW, but that the resulting exhaustion isn't, and is an exception to RAW.

Which... Eh, I'd allow it. Exhaustion sucks.

[Amechra]

I think the best practices for a guide is to assume the least controversial reading of a given rule — not to say that you can't prefer (or suggest) a different ruling, but it's probably best to actually include your argument for that ruling, rather than just assuming that other people will rule stuff the way you do.

So by all means suggest that Exhaustion suffered while Wild Shaping should go away after you revert to your original form, but you should clearly indicate that this might not be a thing at every table.

[strangebloke]

I think the best practices for a guide is to assume the least controversial reading of a given rule — not to say that you can't prefer (or suggest) a different ruling, but it's probably best to actually include your argument for that ruling, rather than just assuming that other people will rule stuff the way you do.

So by all means suggest that Exhaustion suffered while Wild Shaping should go away after you revert to your original form, but you should clearly indicate that this might not be a thing at every table.

well I did in the OP, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. It's something you could maybe argue for, though its a good subclass anyway.

[DarknessEternal]

Perhaps you know this, but your original post doesn't seem to imply it.

Barbarian's Unarmored Defense doesn't stack with a beast's natural AC. You either get the beast's AC or you get the an AC of 10 + beast's dex mod + beast's con mod.

[Amechra]

Barbarian's Unarmored Defense doesn't stack with a beast's natural AC. You either get the beast's AC or you get the an AC of 10 + beast's dex mod + beast's con mod.

Yeah, if you want good AC while wildshaped, you're probably better off dipping Monk than depending on the Barbarian's UD.

(Saying that, I'd love to see a similarly in-depth breakdown on how to build a Moonk — you're trading the Barbarian's amazing durability and superior accuracy for better AC, a mobility boost, more attacks in general, and a hilarious mental image.)

[Gignere]

IMX this is less of a problem than you'd expect. You are still a barbarian, you can still fight without wildshape. It's not ideal but the number of non-magic resistant/immune creatures is lower than people think.

Worst case scenario you get someone to cast magic weapon on you.

Not in the campaign I am playing in, any fight that isn’t just a mop up involves creatures that are resistant if not outright immune to nonmagical damage. This is at level 9, if you showed up with a 6 Barb / 3 Druid you will basically be doing nothing except begging someone to cast magic weapon on you that might be better spent on banishment/wall of fire/ or any number of much better concentration spells.

6 Druid / 3 barbarian will be fine.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The other challenge is making your natural attacks magical almost make Druid 6 mandatory, unless your DM works to give you an Insignia of the Claw or something similar.

I think this is a significant point. Yes, it will vary by campaign; published content ranges from almost all monsters by tier 2 being resistant to almost none. I'm considering a Druid X/ Paladin 6 build next, but how quickly I get to Druid 6 is going to depend on what our other DM picks. Something with a lot of resistant creatures means Druid 6/ Paladin 2; very few means Druid 2/ Paladin 6

The OP mentioned his wife has 15 levels of experience with this build. I'd be interested in how much combat time is spent out of wildshape given the benefits of rage and whether it's even worth building around non-wildshape combat at all. Our Moon Druids have had some combat time out of wildshape, but I could imagine when you add rage into the mix maybe it's not much of an issue.

[strangebloke]

Perhaps you know this, but your original post doesn't seem to imply it.

Barbarian's Unarmored Defense doesn't stack with a beast's natural AC. You either get the beast's AC or you get the an AC of 10 + beast's dex mod + beast's con mod.
Oh I am aware, but its still an improvement for most beasts. This is why I call out the barrier tattoo in the magic items section.

Yeah, if you want good AC while wildshaped, you're probably better off dipping Monk than depending on the Barbarian's UD.

(Saying that, I'd love to see a similarly in-depth breakdown on how to build a Moonk — you're trading the Barbarian's amazing durability and superior accuracy for better AC, a mobility boost, more attacks in general, and a hilarious mental image.)
Moon Druid Monk or as I call it, the MOONK is a very very different beast from the Moon Druid Barbarian. I've labbed it out a bit. The movement gets genuinely ridiculous. Longstrider, +20 unarmored movement, and an 80 foot base flying speed, plus SOTW for double dash... its absurd.

But its overall a bit weird. You can't used natural attacks in place of unarmed strikes, and natural weapons don't count as monk weapons so you can't use them for KFA or precision attack either. Indeed some (not me) would argue that having natural weapons that can't be used for unarmed strikes means that you are "armed" with non-monk weapons and thus don't qualify for Martial Arts. But that's obviously something I disagree with.

So yeah you can't use the standard MA attack, which leaves you with unarmored movement/AC and ki abilities like flurry and patient defense. It's... I won't call it bad. It's better than a baseline monk, and more flexible, but honestly the best thing to do here by far is a one level monk dip.

Not in the campaign I am playing in, any fight that isn’t just a mop up involves creatures that are resistant if not outright immune to nonmagical damage. This is at level 9, if you showed up with a 6 Barb / 3 Druid you will basically be doing nothing except begging someone to cast magic weapon on you that might be better spent on banishment/wall of fire/ or any number of much better concentration spells.

6 Druid / 3 barbarian will be fine.

Well fair enough, I probably should have acknowledged that settings like Avernus exist.

[Amechra]

I'm... not sure where you're getting the idea that you can't use Martial Arts while wildshaped? Anyone can make an unarmed strike, it's just that it's usually pointless to do so. Focused Aim also explicitly works on any attack roll you make, not just with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

So arguably the Monk offers the following, attack-wise:


If your base form has terrible attacks, you can replace them with unarmed strikes. 1d4+Str/Dex isn't much, but it's better than the 1 damage that you'd deal as a cat.
You can spend your bonus action to make 1-2 extra attacks. Sure, they aren't going to be as awesome as a Berserker getting an extra use of a good natural weapon, but it's something, and it's reliable.
If you have five levels of Monk, you get Extra Attack (which was the killer app of taking 5 levels of Barbarian), an accuracy booster, and Stunning Strike (which just needs a melee weapon attack to work).


The main issue is that most Monk subclasses don't synergize all that well with the Moon Druid.

[strangebloke]

I'm... not sure where you're getting the idea that you can't use Martial Arts while wildshaped? Anyone can make an unarmed strike, it's just that it's usually pointless to do so. Focused Aim also explicitly works on any attack roll you make, not just with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

So arguably the Monk offers the following, attack-wise:


If your base form has terrible attacks, you can replace them with unarmed strikes. 1d4+Str/Dex isn't much, but it's better than the 1 damage that you'd deal as a cat.
You can spend your bonus action to make 1-2 extra attacks. Sure, they aren't going to be as awesome as a Berserker getting an extra use of a good natural weapon, but it's something, and it's reliable.
If you have five levels of Monk, you get Extra Attack (which was the killer app of taking 5 levels of Barbarian), an accuracy booster, and Stunning Strike (which just needs a melee weapon attack to work).


The main issue is that most Monk subclasses don't synergize all that well with the Moon Druid.

You can use martial arts and unarmed strike, but the ba attack granted by martial arts (the single attack, not flurry) requires you to use a monk weapon or unarmed strike as part of the attack action. Meaning you can only get the MA attack if you give up a natural weapon attack, which is a bad trade that becomes worse with passing levels.

Sure, ma dice are better than a catscratch but you don't go into moon druid to turn into beasts that deal less than 1d4+2.

Extra attack isn't the killer app for this build; Rage and reckless are. Extra attack is sort of marginal, since you already had multiattack. Extra does get you 1-3 more d6 per turn but it's not really amazing until level eleven.

Ultimately all monk features depend heavily on scaling dexterity, which you can't really do here. Monks also want to single class for ki and ma scaling.

It's not terrible overall and astral monk does have some potential because you CAN scale wisdom, but it's just a bit awkward. Running 320 get a turn over water as a bear makes it worth it though.

[elyktsorb]

You can use martial arts and unarmed strike, but the ba attack granted by martial arts (the single attack, not flurry) requires you to use a monk weapon or unarmed strike as part of the attack action. Meaning you can only get the MA attack if you give up a natural weapon attack, which is a bad trade that becomes worse with passing levels.

There is an awkward way around this, but it requires being a Beast barbarian, as you can rage after wildshaping since moon gives you the option to shapeshift as an action or a bonus action, and turn/grow an appendage that counts as a simple melee weapon. Not sure if it works for the claws, since it requires your hands to turn into claws (i guess if you turn into a gorilla those have hands), but that could just be semantics. Not to mention I'm not sure anyone would care either way.

Anyway, being simple weapons means they count as monk weapons and would allow you to attack with them as a druid in beast form and work for the ba unarmed strike.

This would also require having a single monk level lol. Probably also isn't better than the straight multiattack either, maybe on animal forms with single attacks.

[strangebloke]

Oh forgot to say Amechra, but you were right and I was wrong about focused aim. Still kind of questionable to go more than 2 levels in druid (or more than 1 level in monk for a druid) when you consider how much monks want MA dice and ki, but it is an interesting build nonetheless.

There is an awkward way around this, but it requires being a Beast barbarian, as you can rage after wildshaping since moon gives you the option to shapeshift as an action or a bonus action, and turn/grow an appendage that counts as a simple melee weapon. Not sure if it works for the claws, since it requires your hands to turn into claws (i guess if you turn into a gorilla those have hands), but that could just be semantics. Not to mention I'm not sure anyone would care either way.

Anyway, being simple weapons means they count as monk weapons and would allow you to attack with them as a druid in beast form and work for the ba unarmed strike.

This would also require having a single monk level lol. Probably also isn't better than the straight multiattack either, maybe on animal forms with single attacks.

This is true! But the beast claws aren't really any better than your unarmed strike if you're going to monk 5. If you want the BA attack you can still go Unarmed Strike + Bear Claw + BA unarmed. It's fine. Its an improvement over the baseline, but personally I'm not too excited about it, since a lot of beasts have bad DEX and its hard to fix that.

[Amechra]

You can use martial arts and unarmed strike, but the ba attack granted by martial arts (the single attack, not flurry) requires you to use a monk weapon or unarmed strike as part of the attack action. Meaning you can only get the MA attack if you give up a natural weapon attack, which is a bad trade that becomes worse with passing levels.

*Checks*

Huh. I had completely forgotten about that. That does put a bit of a damper on the ol' Moonk. Dang it, WotC, what is it with you and making the Monk bad at multiclassing with everything?

[strangebloke]

*Checks*

Huh. I had completely forgotten about that. That does put a bit of a damper on the ol' Moonk. Dang it, WotC, what is it with you and making the Monk bad at multiclassing with everything?

Yeah I mean, if you're at my table I'd just fully let you use all natural weapons for unarmed strikes. Like why not lol.

[Psyren]

Not sure if you knew, but a couple of weeks back Skullsplitter Dice did an optimization guide for this very combo, including recommended beast choices by tier. I'll embed that below.

He answers some of your specific questions / uncertainties as well, e.g. what race to go with:

He recommends Drd X/Brb 3. Generally you'd start with 2 levels in Druid for Wis proficiency and to get Combat Wild Shape as fast as possible, then 3 levels in Barbarian, then the rest in Druid. Obviously you want Moon Druid, for Barbarian you are wider open as mentioned - Totem, Ancestral and Zealot are all thematic and mechanically strong.
Because Multiattack does not use the Attack Action, don't worry too much about missing it. It's a damage boost on animals with only one attack, but there are plenty that get more than one natively. In general, you'll get more benefit from more druid.
ASIs are very unimportant for this build - your physical stats don't matter, and you won't be casting many spells in combat. So don't feel bad about delaying your first one, and you'll probably be wanting to spend most of them on feats.
While any race is indeed good for this, there are a couple that warrant special mention. Kalashtar and Thri-Kreen (Spelljammer UA) can speak telepathically, which let you roleplay and coordinate more easily while wildshaped. Kenku also bear a mention - your DM might allow Kenku Mimicry to work in wildshape, which hilariously will get you access to the pre-changes Kenku that could only communicate this way. (Point out that the origin of Kenku Mimicry is supernatural/divine in both versions of the race, that might help your chances.)
If you don't care about communication, then races with non-spell magical mobility like Shadar-Kai and Eladrin are good. In addition, Goliath and Orc make you even tankier. Gnome and Satyr help you deal with magical attacks. Finally, Githzerai will shore up your last remaining elemental resistance if you go Totem.
While Berserker's BA attack is nice, I don't know that it's worth the downsides of Frenzy. I'd probably be more inclined to use my bonus action on CWS healing since your slots aren't doing much else during a fight.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0QOtzlIGm0

[strangebloke]

Not sure if you knew, but a couple of weeks back Skullsplitter Dice did an optimization guide for this very combo, including recommended beast choices by tier. I'll embed that below.

He answers some of your specific questions / uncertainties as well, e.g. what race to go with:

He recommends Drd X/Brb 3. Generally you'd start with 2 levels in Druid for Wis proficiency and to get Combat Wild Shape as fast as possible, then 3 levels in Barbarian, then the rest in Druid. Obviously you want Moon Druid, for Barbarian you are wider open as mentioned - Totem, Ancestral and Zealot are all thematic and mechanically strong.
Because Multiattack does not use the Attack Action, don't worry too much about missing it. It's a damage boost on animals with only one attack, but there are plenty that get more than one natively. In general, you'll get more benefit from more druid.
ASIs are very unimportant for this build - your physical stats don't matter, and you won't be casting many spells in combat. So don't feel bad about delaying your first one, and you'll probably be wanting to spend most of them on feats.
While any race is indeed good for this, there are a couple that warrant special mention. Kalashtar and Thri-Kreen (Spelljammer UA) can speak telepathically, which let you roleplay and coordinate more easily while wildshaped. Kenku also bear a mention - your DM might allow Kenku Mimicry to work in wildshape, which hilariously will get you access to the pre-changes Kenku that could only communicate this way. (Point out that the origin of Kenku Mimicry is supernatural/divine in both versions of the race, that might help your chances.)
If you don't care about communication, then races with non-spell magical mobility like Shadar-Kai and Eladrin are good. In addition, Goliath and Orc make you even tankier. Gnome and Satyr help you deal with magical attacks. Finally, Githzerai will shore up your last remaining elemental resistance if you go Totem.
While Berserker's BA attack is nice, I don't know that it's worth the downsides of Frenzy. I'd probably be more inclined to use my bonus action on CWS healing since your slots aren't doing much else during a fight.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0QOtzlIGm0

1. Druid x is just a bad druid lol. It might be stronger but only because you're completely ignoring the barbarian features. I've done the math. Your melee dpr after level five sucks even while raging, and consequently you should never rage and should rely on conjure animals for damage. As i said it might be stronger, but it can't do anything a normal druid can't, except rage once in a while when it isn't concentrating. If you go this route monk is better in every way.
2. Extra attack almost doubles dpr when you get it, allowing you to switch from (2d6+3 +1d6+3) brown bear to a (3d6+3)*2 elk. Granted the HP is a little lacking but if you can get thp you'll be fine.
3. Asis aren't good but feats are. I'd argue that one of the strengths of the build is that your can push all your Asis on feats without losing anything, and keep up.
4. Race selection is fine. Telepathy seems uneeded personally but shadarkai was one I mentioned too. Anything with a strong active ability is good here. Kobold in particular. Githzerai feels like a waste if you can't cast shield, and the flavor is bad. Hadn't thought of gnome though.
5. Even if you only frenzy once a day it's a 50% damage boost when you do. That's kind of nuts.
6. Should make a bit on spells eventually but healing is a big deal here, as are non concentration spells like longstrider and fire shield.

Overall not bad takes but I disagree a bit lol.

Ran the damage numbers and I'm happy to report a basic barbarian druid with my splits and no feats beats warlock with hex and eab at every level. Still a good deal behind regular bear totem with Pam and gwm but obviously you get a lot more utility out of this build.

[Psyren]

I'm not saying you shouldn't go more than 3 Barbarian if you want to, especially if Druid 17 feels too "castery" for your tastes. Just that (a) the most important things from Barbarian are in those first three levels and (b) every level of barbarian is delaying your wildshape progression (plus you likely want to hit Elemental forms and Primal Strike asap). But with that said it's totally fine to stick with, say, CR 3-4 beasts. Similarly, Extra Attack is indeed fine if you're going for a beast that has one big attack like an Elk, but there are plenty of great options that won't benefit from it.

Basically I would do Druid 2/Brb 3 to start, then 8 more druid levels and the campaign is probably over by that point - but if it isn't, I might go back to Barb or stick with Druid depending on what the party needs more.


If you go this route monk is better in every way.

I disagree, the big draw for barbarian here comes from three sources - the damage boost on each hit (plus Reckless), the subclass features and the damage reduction. Monk gets none of that.


2. Extra attack almost doubles dpr when you get it, allowing you to switch from (2d6+3 +1d6+3) brown bear to a (3d6+3)*2 elk. Granted the HP is a little lacking but if you can get thp you'll be fine.

You're doubling the Ram damage here which is pretty iffy as you're not charging on the second attack. I don't think that'll fly at most tables.

Also I would probably be starting as a Deinonychus instead of a Brown Bear for 4d8+16 rather than 3d6+6.



3. Asis aren't good but feats are. I'd argue that one of the strengths of the build is that your can push all your Asis on feats without losing anything, and keep up.

Yeah, I... said that? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

[strangebloke]

I'm not saying you shouldn't go more than 3 Barbarian if you want to, especially if Druid 17 feels too "castery" for your tastes. Just that (a) the most important things from Barbarian are in those first three levels and (b) every level of barbarian is delaying your wildshape progression (plus you likely want to hit Elemental forms and Primal Strike asap). But with that said it's totally fine to stick with, say, CR 3-4 beasts. Similarly, Extra Attack is indeed fine if you're going for a beast that has one big attack like an Elk, but there are plenty of great options that won't benefit from it.

Basically I would do Druid 2/Brb 3 to start, then 8 more druid levels and the campaign is probably over by that point - but if it isn't, I might go back to Barb or stick with Druid depending on what the party needs more.

level 13 with 5 barbarian levels can turn into a quetzalcoatlus and deal 6d6+2 twice a turn, level 13 with 3 barbarian levels can become an earth elemental and hit for 2d8+5 twice. The golem forms aren't worth prioritizing. Most of what they give you is big HP with damage resistance, which you already had one way or another. Admittedly the Quetz is a glass cannon, but something like the Elk has fat HP while still massively outdamaging the golems.

Only one with real utility is the fire elemental for AOE.

Primal Strike is mostly campaign dependent. If you can get an insignia of the claw or non-magical-bsp resistance is uncommon, it doesn't matter much at all... if those things aren't true then Primal Strike is very important and I agree with going to druid 6 first, though.


I disagree, the big draw for barbarian here comes from three sources - the damage boost on each hit (plus Reckless), the subclass features and the damage reduction. Monk gets none of that.
Rage has anti-synergy with someone who's mostly a druid; you won't use it until you lose concentration. Thus it doesn't have much of an impact. Reckless is better, but the subclass features aren't worth a level by themselves.

Monks give a much larger bonus to movement and AC, and do it in one level, freeing you to get to better wildshape forms and spell earlier, while not preventing you from concentrating on your very powerful spells.

If your goal is instead to eat people in wildshape, barbarian 5-6 is better than druid levels. I showed my math for elementals above,


You're doubling the Ram damage here which is pretty iffy as you're not charging on the second attack. I don't think that'll fly at most tables.
It would seem that if this was RAI, we wouldn't have creatures like the Peryton, which has the exact same ability as the Quetzal (which is nearly the same as charge) and can apply it to multiple attacks. The ability doesn't specify "once per turn", it just has the sequence of events.

So it works by RAW and isn't overpowered, why wouldn't a DM allow this? An Elk tossing an enemy with one hit and carrying their momentum through to the next seems... awesome? Cool?

Alternately, you have the giant hyena which with extra attack and rampage gets up to 6d6+9 total, which is an even higher damage point, although admittedly a conditional one


Also I would probably be starting as a Deinonychus instead of a Brown Bear for 4d8+16 rather than 3d6+6.
4d8+8, if they fail their saving throw. Still Deinochyus are very good and I'll should have taken them into account.

Yeah, I... said that? :smallconfused::smalltongue:
Amazing as it seems I do sometimes intentionally agree with you.

[Psyren]

Rage has anti-synergy with someone who's mostly a druid; you won't use it until you lose concentration. Thus it doesn't have much of an impact. Reckless is better, but the subclass features aren't worth a level by themselves.

I don't need to be concentrating all the time to benefit from being a caster. A lot of parties are glad to have someone who can cast Greater Restoration or Scrying for instance, even when that isn't needed for a fight, and Druid 9-10 gets me that. It's a viable option. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong for delaying druid levels, but I'm not wrong for not doing so either, it's just a matter of what kind of mix appeals to you.



Monks give a much larger bonus to movement and AC, and do it in one level, freeing you to get to better wildshape forms and spell earlier, while not preventing you from concentrating on your very powerful spells.

But no damage bonus, no reckless attack, and no damage resistance. Movement hardly matters when a lot of your forms can go upwards of 40ft anyway.



It would seem that if this was RAI, we wouldn't have creatures like the Peryton, which has the exact same ability as the Quetzal (which is nearly the same as charge) and can apply it to multiple attacks. The ability doesn't specify "once per turn", it just has the sequence of events.

You're misreading the Peryton too - the bonus damage only applies to "the attack" - one. It can multiattack and dive in the same round, yes. but the bonus damage it gets from doing so is still +2d8, not +4d8.



4d8+8, if they fail their saving throw.

It's (1d8+2+2) per hit, with the second +2 coming from Barbarian 3's rage. If all 4 hit, that's 4d8+8+8, or 4d8+16.


Amazing as it seems I do sometimes intentionally agree with you.

When you word it like a correction I tend to treat it as such. (I usually put "Agreed," before my sentence or something along those lines to avoid that, myself.)

[strangebloke]

I don't need to be concentrating all the time to benefit from being a caster. A lot of parties are glad to have someone who can cast Greater Restoration or Scrying for instance, even when that isn't needed for a fight, and Druid 9-10 gets me that. It's a viable option. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong for delaying druid levels, but I'm not wrong for not doing so either, it's just a matter of what kind of mix appeals to you.
I agree its viable. In fact, I said it was probably better when I replied to you a few posts back. I just don't think it actually leverages the barbarian levels as well because your concentration will massively outscale rage as you level. The utility of barbarian 3 doesn't scale at all with druid levels, except in the sense that rage doubles HP and you get more HP, which... wasn't really something moon druid lacked for. Ultimately you're just a worse moon druid with a panic button marked "rage."


You're misreading the Peryton too - the bonus damage only applies to "the attack" - one. It can multiattack and dive in the same round, yes. but the bonus damage it gets from doing so is still +2d8, not +4d8.
Nah.

Compare the text from hobgoblin:

Martial Advantage: [B]Once per turn, the hobgoblin can deal an extra 7 (2d6) damage to a creature it hits with a weapon attack if that creature is within 5 feet of an ally of the hobgoblin that isn't incapacitated.
The number of times it can proc is specified, even though this is a creature with only one attack, and the wording is consistent with the hobgoblin warlord, who has more attacks . This is consistent with how similar PC abilities like the zealot's damage bonus or sneak attack are worded. Abilities that proc on every attack are worded differently.

The Peryton does not specify only once per turn, it says "when it moves... and then hits with a melee weapon attack." There are three conditions here

the creature must have moved before the attack
the attack must hit
the attack must be a melee weapon attack

Nowhere is it specified that there cannot be another attack in between the dive and the attack that hits, even though similar abilities that are supposed to proc once per turn do specify such things. It's also specifically worded as 'melee weapon attack' so that it can apply to either/both attacks. You can dive, attack, miss, hit, get the damage bonus, or dive, attack, get the damage bonus, attack and get the damage bonus again. This wording is consistent across a huge range of abilities like pounce, charge, and dive, even on monsters that have multiple attacks.

I won't swear its RAI, but its got good basis in RAW.

[sambojin]

I'd be tempted to go straight to Moon 3, then Wild Barb 6, then Moon X. It makes levelling smoother and gives you plenty of fun abilities, and happily rounds out the build by lvl9-12.
(Or Barb 1-Moon3-Barb 6-Moon X. Con saves are really handy to not feat in)

Moon 3 gives you lvl2 spells. Very handy. Sure, you can't concentrate while raging, but you'll only have 2-3 rages for a fair while, so a couple of extra spell slots can cover other entire encounters. A couple of cantrips (Shillelagh/Magic Stone and Guidance for +init?) is useful too. Moon2 is super powerful, but so is Druid 3. At the very worst, it's 2x +2d8 healing while in wildshape, but don't use it for this.

Then you get rage + AC, reckless attack, weird stuff happening when you pop rage, an ASI, Extra Attack + free longstrider, and then +d3 to-hit or a few spell slots back for each level of Barb taken. So, always something.

Your last druid levels give an ASI/swim forms, and then level3 spells, then magic attacks/CR2 forms. So still always something.


I wouldn't underestimate spells. Even stuff like Longstrider or Jump work fine in Rage, and you'll always have your back-up "hit them with a magic stick in caster-form" if you're really worried about bps defences. Plus, those combats where you can't Rage, stuff like Summon Beast or Enhance Ability or Spike Growth or Hold Person or Flaming Sphere still keeps your party/DPR pretty high.

Also, never forget just how expendable wildshape charges are. If it let you do a cool thing for a round or three, then it's done its job. Feel free to drop out of wildshape whenever you want, if it's useful or you want to cast. The joys of 2/sr resources 🙂

[Hael]

A peace cleric dip is tempting here.. A d4 definitely helps some of those attacks hitting

[Psyren]

The Peryton does not specify only once per turn, it says "when it moves... and then hits with a melee weapon attack." There are three conditions here

the creature must have moved before the attack
the attack must hit
the attack must be a melee weapon attack

Nowhere is it specified that there cannot be another attack in between the dive and the attack that hits, even though similar abilities that are supposed to proc once per turn do specify such things.

I'm not saying there can't be two attacks when it dives. There can. Rather, the issue is that you are granting the bonus damage twice when it has only triggered once, i.e. from the 30ft. dive.


Dive Attack. If the peryton is flying and dives at least 30 feet straight toward a target and then hits it with a melee.weapon attack, the attack deals an extra 9 (2d8) damage to the target.

You can multiattack on a dive just fine. But only one of those attacks (the attack, singular) gets the bonus 2d8 damage, because you only dived once.

This is backed up by its CR calculation. With the bonus 2d8 damage only occuring once, it's offensive CR is 3 and its defensive CR is <1 for a total CR of 2, which is what it has in the MM. Using your interpretation however (bonus damage on both hits) increases its average DPR by 9, raising its offensive CR to 4 for a total CR of 3, which does not match the book. Your interpretation is not correct.

[strangebloke]

I'm not saying there can't be two attacks when it dives. There can. Rather, the issue is that you are granting the bonus damage twice when it has only triggered once, i.e. from the 30ft. dive.



You can multiattack on a dive just fine. But only one of those attacks (the attack, singular) gets the bonus 2d8 damage, because you only dived once.

This is backed up by its CR calculation. With the bonus 2d8 damage only occuring once, it's offensive CR is 3 and its defensive CR is <1 for a total CR of 2, which is what it has in the MM. Using your interpretation however (bonus damage on both hits) increases its average DPR by 9, raising its offensive CR to 4 for a total CR of 3, which does not match the book. Your interpretation is not correct.

This would require that WotC follow its own rules. The Peryton's CR rounds out to 2.75, which is high, but if we look at similar enemies this is not that uncommon. The Brown Bear, with 17.5 dmg/+5 attack has offensive CR 3 which with a defensive CR of 0 gives him CR 1.5 in total. The Deinonychus has been mentioned a few times; its one damage away from CR 4 offense and CR 1/8 defense. With one more damage it'd be CR 2.056, but currently its CR 1.556, which is as high as the giant elk.

...and then there's the humble hobgoblin, who's listed as CR 1/2 but also comes out to CR 1.56. Lol.

So nah, rejected.

As to the rest, "the attack" is "an attack that hit after a dive." Which could be both attacks if they both hit. Nothing precludes the damage from dropping twice.

[Psyren]

The Brown Bear, with 17.5 dmg/+5 attack has offensive CR 3 which with a defensive CR of 0 gives him CR 1.5 in total.

Also incorrect, the brown bear has an offensive CR of 2 (you gave it an extra +1 attack for some reason? They have +4 to hit, not +5) for a total CR of 1, matching the book.


As to the rest, "the attack" is "an attack that hit after a dive." Which could be both attacks if they both hit. Nothing precludes the damage from dropping twice.

Agree to disagree it is.

[elyktsorb]

Also incorrect, the brown bear has an offensive CR of 2 (you gave it an extra +1 attack for some reason? They have +4 to hit, not +5) for a total CR of 1, matching the book.

I just wanted to mention the Brown Bear has a +6 to hit according to my sources

[PhantomSoul]

I just wanted to mention the Brown Bear has a +6 to hit according to my sources

Looks like this was the subject of errata, to keep 5e discussions fun :P

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9xz2x7/i_outline_the_main_changes_of_the_new_5th_edition/

(+4 might have been from accidentally checking the black bear instead of the brown... unless there's another errata that increased their attack bonus before this?)

[Psyren]

I just wanted to mention the Brown Bear has a +6 to hit according to my sources

What source is that? Because I'm looking right at MM pg. 319. Also Basic pg. 120. (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/DnD_BasicRules_2018.pdf)

[elyktsorb]

What source is that? Because I'm looking right at MM pg. 319. Also Basic pg. 120. (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/DnD_BasicRules_2018.pdf)

So I'm using 5etools for my MM, but your MM book source likely lists it as +5, but the Basic source you listed says it's +6

I am not going to attempt to figure out which MM is the most up to date MM, it is too late for me to be doing that.

[Psyren]

My book says +4. Great, so they errata'ed the bear to have an additional +2 on all its swings (even more than initially proposed) and didn't update its CR :smallsigh:

The calculation was still correct when they originally printed it, regardless of what happened in the interim. And calculating a non-errataed creature (Dire Wolf) gives it the CR 1 even with the Pack Tactics figured in. So I stand by what I said. (Including agreeing to disagree about dive attack and ram).

[strangebloke]

Anyway.

Thinking on it more, I did some damage comparisons. A lot of what I said earlier forgot about the Deinonychus, so I want to factor that in. Here's some quick thoughts.

Deinonychus without extra attack gets 4d8+16=34 if it gets an enemy prone. With my reading of charge rules, that makes it easier for the prone to occur since he can potentially force two saves. This form does have slightly lower accuracy than most CR 1 forms.
Elk is worthless with only one charge proc. 4d6+10=24, with low movement speed. With multiple charge proc potential you have 6d6+10=31. Seems fine but with the low HP probably not worth it compared to other options. Get a BA attack from GWM or Berserker and you get 9d6+15=46.5 which is nutty.
Giant Hyena hits 6d6+15=36 with the rampage ability (which is basically the GWM ability). Same as Deinonychus but double the HP.
Dire Wolf is same as Hyena but pack tactics instead of rampage which makes it a relatively tanky option because you can avoid using reckless. Although its damage peak is weaker than hyena or Deinonychus, you can bring it back up to par with GWM or Berserker
Giant ROCKtopus is playable at this level and has the same 4d6+10 damage most of these forms do... and also has the ability to restrain foes on hit, a really nutty ability. Lots of utility and the movement boost makes it bizarrely mobile here. Giant Octopus is the same but has a swim speed and so you need more druid levels.
Giant Spider is a major weirdo. If you assume a 50% save rate against poison, 2d6+10+3d8=30.5. Solid damage that can be boosted further with berserker/GWM, and this is on a very mobile chassis with web as a utility option that you can mix in with attacks. Weird question is if you can use str instead of dex to get rage abilities.


TL;DR, if you have Deinonychus available (which you won't always) extra attack only really benefits DPR along with something like berserker or GWM. Otherwise the main appeal here is forms that have similar DPR but more utility and health.

To compare the CR 2 forms (without extra attack) against Deinonychus we get the following

Allosaurus has better HP, but deals 2d10+1d8+10=25.5, which is pretty bad, but strictly better than the giant cat unless you really care about keen smell. Allosaurus has nearly TRIPLE the HP of the though.
Giant Elk has 4d6+6=20. Again, unimpressive. Giant Boar is the same. Rhino deals 2 more damage but is bizarrely a lot more fragile.
Giant Constrictor snake has 2d8+6=15 damage + restrain.


TL;DR, Druid 6 doesn't give you any forms that are really worth anything as far as damage is concerned. If these get used, its not because you want to deal damage. Again, I think going to druid 6 is stronger overall because of spellcasting, and Primal Strike alone might make this a better combat option depending on campaign, but Barbarian 5 first gets you more combat options, if not more DPR outright.

Regardless, druid 6/barbarian 5 is where the real damage is at. 40 or 50 damage is pretty achievable, and you can actually keep up with a GWM/PAM barb at this level if you have some means of getting BA attack.

Which, btw, I'm getting more and more convinced that GWM is a good idea, if only because there's no other really good damage feat here.

[x3n0n]

Giant Spider is a major weirdo. If you assume a 50% save rate against poison, 2d6+10+3d8=30.5. Solid damage that can be boosted further with berserker/GWM, and this is on a very mobile chassis with web as a utility option that you can mix in with attacks. Weird question is if you can use str instead of dex to get rage abilities.

Since most Bites are Str-based, as a DM I'd allow you to "finesse" Bite as Str-based (to benefit from Rage and/or Reckless Attack): +4 to hit, d8+2 piercing + the RAW poison rider.

Note also that the form also has blindsight for combos with heavy obscuration.

[ender241]

A form I haven't seen mentioned yet here is the moorbounder. It's got a +6, 4d4+4 damage attack (14 avg, not factoring in rage). With extra attack that comes to 28 avg DPR (again, without rage bonus and not factoring in to-hit chance). With no reliance on a charge/prone proc or BA ability, it's arguably the most reliable DPR for a CR 1 beast with extra attack. Any form that needs a BA to trigger another attack will likely not catch up on DPR before the fight is over if you BA rage on turn 1. And definitely not if you didn't have a chance to wild shape pre-fight and you have to wild shape on turn 1 and rage on turn 2. Not to mention things like Giant Hyena's rampage or Deinonychus' pounce aren't guaranteed to trigger. Moorbounder just does solid damage every round. With Berserker's frenzy or GWM or Sentinel it gets even better because its single attack is better than pretty much any other CR 1 beast.

It also has a crazy 70 ft speed and standing leap ability so if enemies start far away or on the other side of a small crevice or something you can close the gap much faster, which amounts to another hidden DPR boost. Really the only downsides to the form are that it has slightly lower hp than some other forms (but still higher than Deinonychus) and it doesn't have any utility beyond the speed/leap I mentioned. So if you need to be extra tanky or lock down an enemy there are other better options. But if you want pure DPR and/or high speed I highly recommend it.

I'm in a campaign currently with pretty much the build described in the OP. Right now sitting at Barb 5 / Druid 4 and Moorbounder has been my favorite form to this point.

[strangebloke]

Since most Bites are Str-based, as a DM I'd allow you to "finesse" Bite as Str-based (to benefit from Rage and/or Reckless Attack): +4 to hit, d8+2 piercing + the RAW poison rider.

Note also that the form also has blindsight for combos with heavy obscuration.
yup. It's insanely solid in a lot of situations, and the damage with extra attack is good enough to keep it competitive. My wife's barbarian druid used it as much as any other form. Really really fun.

A form I haven't seen mentioned yet here is the moorbounder. It's got a +6, 4d4+4 damage attack (14 avg, not factoring in rage). With extra attack that comes to 28 avg DPR (again, without rage bonus and not factoring in to-hit chance). With no reliance on a charge/prone proc or BA ability, it's arguably the most reliable DPR for a CR 1 beast with extra attack. Any form that needs a BA to trigger another attack will likely not catch up on DPR before the fight is over if you BA rage on turn 1. And definitely not if you didn't have a chance to wild shape pre-fight and you have to wild shape on turn 1 and rage on turn 2. Not to mention things like Giant Hyena's rampage or Deinonychus' pounce aren't guaranteed to trigger. Moorbounder just does solid damage every round. With Berserker's frenzy or GWM or Sentinel it gets even better because its single attack is better than pretty much any other CR 1 beast.

It also has a crazy 70 ft speed and standing leap ability so if enemies start far away or on the other side of a small crevice or something you can close the gap much faster, which amounts to another hidden DPR boost. Really the only downsides to the form are that it has slightly lower hp than some other forms (but still higher than Deinonychus) and it doesn't have any utility beyond the speed/leap I mentioned. So if you need to be extra tanky or lock down an enemy there are other better options. But if you want pure DPR and/or high speed I highly recommend it.

I'm in a campaign currently with pretty much the build described in the OP. Right now sitting at Barb 5 / Druid 4 and Moorbounder has been my favorite form to this point.

Moorbounder is solid. It's not really the best at any particular thing, but its very functional in a lot of respects. If your DM is strict about limiting access to more exotic forms, it could be the best allrounder by a wide margin. I probably should have mentioned it, but when coming up with lists above it was just never quite high enough in any one respect.

Another interesting form with extra attack is the giant frog. Extremely tanky, only the Octopus has more HP, and the damage is surprisingly okay? 4d10+4=26 on a turn, and the following turn you can swallow them, which gives 3d6 damage a round.

[ender241]

Moorbounder is solid. It's not really the best at any particular thing, but its very functional in a lot of respects. If your DM is strict about limiting access to more exotic forms, it could be the best allrounder by a wide margin. I probably should have mentioned it, but when coming up with lists above it was just never quite high enough in any one respect.

I mean, like I said, where it excels is DPS and speed. No other CR 1 comes close to the 70 ft speed. It has higher accuracy than the Deinonychus, Giant Hyena, and Giant Spider and doesn't rely on the enemy failing a save or dying, and/or a bonus action to deliver high DPR, so can do consistent, high damage starting in round 1. There may be rare situations where the stars align and one of those will out-damage the Moorbounder but in most cases it's going to be #1 in DPR. It's also basically strictly better than the elk (only thing the elk has going for it that Moorbounder doesn't is a chance to prone) and it somehow made your list even with its abysmal hp/ac. You mentioned that it was "nutty" that it could do 46.5 DPR with GWM / berzerker (I assume that includes rage damage). Moorbounder can do 48 DPR with a BA attack (including rage damage) without having to move first, and won't die after 1 round of combat like the elk.

[Dante]

I mean, like I said, where it excels is DPS and speed. No other CR 1 comes close to the 70 ft speed. It has higher accuracy than the Deinonychus, Giant Hyena, and Giant Spider and doesn't rely on the enemy failing a save or dying, and/or a bonus action to deliver high DPR, so can do consistent, high damage starting in round 1. There may be rare situations where the stars align and one of those will out-damage the Moorbounder but in most cases it's going to be #1 in DPR. It's also basically strictly better than the elk (only thing the elk has going for it that Moorbounder doesn't is a chance to prone) and it somehow made your list even with its abysmal hp/ac. You mentioned that it was "nutty" that it could do 46.5 DPR with GWM / berzerker (I assume that includes rage damage). Moorbounder can do 48 DPR with a BA attack (including rage damage) without having to move first, and won't die after 1 round of combat like the elk.

Wait, what? I'm AFB but I believe the Moorbounder has AC 13 and 30 HP. The Giant Elk has AC 14 and 42 HP. Even ignoring chance to prone (which imposes disadvantage on attacks including opportunity attacks), the Giant Elk looks tougher. Am I wrong about the Moorbounder stats?


Elk is worthless with only one charge proc. 4d6+10=24, with low movement speed. With multiple charge proc potential you have 6d6+10=31. Seems fine but with the low HP probably not worth it compared to other options. Get a BA attack from GWM or Berserker and you get 9d6+15=46.5 which is nutty.

Speaking of which...

With multiple charge proc, each attack will do 2d6+2d6(Charge)+4+2(Rage), so you're looking at 8d6+12(4), unless the first attack knocks them prone and then you'll Hoof instead for slightly higher damage, 4d8+4+2(Rage). If you get a bonus action attack you're looking at 12d6+18(60) to 4d6+8d8+18(68) damage potential, depending.

Edit: oh, you're talking about the 13 HP CR 1/4 regular Elk, not the giant one. Got it. Giant Elk is still pretty good once you reach Moon Druid 6--keep it in mind if you're in a situation where Giant Constrictor restraining is unhelpful, e.g. against Wraiths.

[ender241]

Wait, what? I'm AFB but I believe the Moorbounder has AC 13 and 30 HP. The Giant Elk has AC 14 and 42 HP. Even ignoring chance to prone (which imposes disadvantage on attacks including opportunity attacks), the Giant Elk looks tougher. Am I wrong about the Moorbounder stats?

I believe OP was only looking at CR 1 or lower beasts in the list above and was looking at the CR 1/4 Elk. Not the CR 2 Giant Elk. When you add in CR 2 critters there are definitely better options, that's a given.

[Dante]

I believe OP was only looking at CR 1 or lower beasts in the list above and was looking at the CR 1/4 Elk. Not the CR 2 Giant Elk. When you add in CR 2 critters there are definitely better options, that's a given.

Got it, thanks.

[strangebloke]

I mean, like I said, where it excels is DPS and speed. No other CR 1 comes close to the 70 ft speed. It has higher accuracy than the Deinonychus, Giant Hyena, and Giant Spider and doesn't rely on the enemy failing a save or dying, and/or a bonus action to deliver high DPR, so can do consistent, high damage starting in round 1. There may be rare situations where the stars align and one of those will out-damage the Moorbounder but in most cases it's going to be #1 in DPR. It's also basically strictly better than the elk (only thing the elk has going for it that Moorbounder doesn't is a chance to prone) and it somehow made your list even with its abysmal hp/ac. You mentioned that it was "nutty" that it could do 46.5 DPR with GWM / berzerker (I assume that includes rage damage). Moorbounder can do 48 DPR with a BA attack (including rage damage) without having to move first, and won't die after 1 round of combat like the elk.

Well, there are beasts of comparable speed. The horse gets up to 60 feet and a lot of other forms get up to 50. But yeah, this is what I mean when I call it an all-rounder. It's got respectable damage, high speed, and high hp.


Edit: oh, you're talking about the 13 HP CR 1/4 regular Elk, not the giant one. Got it. Giant Elk is still pretty good once you reach Moon Druid 6--keep it in mind if you're in a situation where Giant Constrictor restraining is unhelpful, e.g. against Wraiths.

Oh for sure! That's why I call it out as one of the best CR 2 forms to combine with extra attack. Unfortunately that's a level 11 combo at a minimum, but my wife's barbarian hasn't been disappointed with the Elk so far.