Why zero subclasses linked to the abyss/demons

[Spacehamster]

Could be so many flavorful subclasses for a demonically tainted character, we already have a race that gets the fiend side of the spectrum with the lawful evil devil spawns of thieflings so why demons getting no love?

Could see a demonic rager barbarian, demonic bloodline sorcerer, Baphomet warlock and so on.

Summary: We need a “book of vile darkness” for 5e!

[Sherlockpwns]

Am I a joke to you?
-Fiend Warlock

[Spacehamster]

Am I a joke to you?
-Fiend Warlock

Aint fiends devils? Oh yeah see them mentioning demon lords in description, misremembered. Sadly it’s a very bad subclass so yes it’s a joke to me! 😅

[Pyrophilios]

Fiends are the collective of evil outsiders.

But yes, the fiend warlock is more attuned to devil abilities.

The main reason for the lack of abyssal subclasses is likely: Too chaotic for regular play.
Though, flavor is free, and the berserker barbarian (as suboptimal as it is) would fit a demonic influenced character just right.

[Spacehamster]

Fiends are the collective of evil outsiders.

But yes, the fiend warlock is more attuned to devil abilities.

The main reason for the lack of abyssal subclasses is likely: Too chaotic for regular play.
Though, flavor is free, and the berserker barbarian (as suboptimal as it is) would fit a demonic influenced character just right.

Path of beast would also easily refluff to demonic corruption, just refluff how your natural weapon and rage transformation looks. :)

[Angelalex242]

I could throw Oathbreaker Paladins in there. Remember how their hate aura works...

[Millstone85]

Yes, there are many families of fiends, such as devils, daemons, demodands and demons, which have also been known as baatezu, yugoloths, gehreleths and tanar'ri.

It used to be that a tiefling could trace their origins to any fiend, and I am still sad that 4e and 5e decided to make the race exclusively devil-related. At one point 5e had playtest material (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf) that tried to reintroduce abyssal tieflings, but they never followed up on that for some reason.

I have noted, however, that the tiefling's celestial counterpart, the aasimar, has gone from inheriting "a touch of the power of Mount Celestia" (Volo's Guide to Monsters page 104) to instead carrying "a spark of the Upper Planes" (Monsters of the Multiverse page 7). This makes me think there might be hope yet to free tieflings from the lawful side of the planes.


I could throw Oathbreaker Paladins in there. Remember how their hate aura works...I agree that Oathbreaker sounds great for an abyssal paladin, but that hate aura would need a rewrite. Either change "any fiends and undead" to "any fiends (except devils) and undead" or to "any fiends and undead of the paladin's choice".

Gotta be useful in that Blood War.

[strangebloke]

Aint fiends devils? Oh yeah see them mentioning demon lords in description, misremembered. Sadly it’s a very bad subclass so yes it’s a joke to me! 😅

W-what?

Very bad? I don't think so lmao. It's like second or third best in class. Hexblade is better, celestial might be, but warlock has the best boss killer in the game with hurl through hell, which is also the coolest ability in the game. They get fireball on a short rest and thp like it's going out of style...

It's a solid subclass.

Besides this, though, it may be an underrepresented niche. Clerics or certain kinds of paladins could be arguably made into demonic servants already. There's nothing stopping you from rolling a knowledge cleric of Tzeench or glory paladin of khorne.

Otherwise demonic flavor mostly comes down to playing a tiefling.

[Psyren]

As with many things, refluffing is your friend here. There's no reason why, say, Berserker Barbarian or Wild Mage or Swarmkeeper etc can't be Abyss-themed.

Fiendlock in particular very explicitly works with demons/demon lords in its description, not just devils. All you really have to do is change the name of "Hurl Through Hell" to something more abyssal or at least less devilish. Nothing in the ability's text is specific to Baator.


Aint fiends devils? Oh yeah see them mentioning demon lords in description, misremembered. Sadly it’s a very bad subclass so yes it’s a joke to me! 😅

Who told you that? Fiendlock is one of the strongest warlocks to go 1-20 with alongside Genie.

[Spacehamster]

As with many things, refluffing is your friend here. There's no reason why, say, Berserker Barbarian or Wild Mage or Swarmkeeper etc can't be Abyss-themed.

Fiendlock in particular very explicitly works with demons/demon lords in its description, not just devils. All you really have to do is change the name of "Hurl Through Hell" to something more abyssal or at least less devilish. Nothing in the ability's text is specific to Baator.



Who told you that? Fiendlock is one of the strongest warlocks to go 1-20 with alongside Genie.

It needs a fighter 1 dip to funktion in melee so would not say its strong single class unless you want to be an eldritch blaster ofc

[Psyren]

It needs a fighter 1 dip to funktion in melee so would not say its strong single class unless you want to be an eldritch blaster ofc

I find this line of thinking pretty weird. So is wizard not strong without a fighter dip either? Why does a fiendlock need to be in melee? :smallconfused:

[Spacehamster]

I find this line of thinking pretty weird. So is wizard not strong without a fighter dip either? Why does a fiendlock need to be in melee? :smallconfused:

Cause I like melee characters and feels like a demonic character should be up there in the thick of it not hiding behind others cowardly pew pewing with lazors. :)

[strangebloke]

It needs a fighter 1 dip to funktion in melee so would not say its strong single class unless you want to be an eldritch blaster ofc

Yeah I mean it's mostly a blaster. That's why fireball is there. But medium armor and a shield is only a half feat away and you can get weapon proficiencies from your race or just cat shadow blade. Or you can go with mage armor via invocation or feat.

Hexblade is busted but fiendlock is still good. If you're not going to consider anything except the best classes and subclasses, it naturally follows your options will be limited

[Bohandas]

Fiends are the collective of evil outsiders.

Specifically of outer planar evil outsiders, which includes both devils and demons as well as yugoloths and demodands, but IIRC traditionally not Dao or Efreet as they come from the inner planes

[Millstone85]

Specifically of outer planar evil outsiders, which includes both devils and demons as well as yugoloths and demodands, but IIRC traditionally not Dao or Efreet as they come from the inner planesI know you are right, but I will still mock the idea of genies being "inner planar outsiders". :smallbiggrin:

[RogueJK]

I find this line of thinking pretty weird. So is wizard not strong without a fighter dip either? Why does a fiendlock need to be in melee? :smallconfused:

Yeah... This is like saying Fighter needs a Fiendish subclass that can cast spells better than an EK because I like playing spellcasters.

[KorvinStarmast]

I could throw Oathbreaker Paladins in there. Remember how their hate aura works... That's a DMG character, and I know a number of DM's who do not allow it as a player option.

I know you are right, but I will still mock the idea of genies being "inner planar outsiders". :smallbiggrin:You've got to get in to get out! (https://youtu.be/BN1pIzq3PQI?t=86) :smallsmile:

[Naanomi]

Except for the Feywyld, the Far Realm, and Shadowfel (and one oddball tie to Mechanus), most Planes don't have subclasses specifically tied to them

[animorte]

I know you are right, but I will still mock the idea of genies being "inner planar outsiders". :smallbiggrin:
I love me some GenieLock but I must add in that the Noble Genie's notions of self-thought god-like abilities are laughable. CR 11


Their miraculous powers, the grandeur of their abodes, and the numbers of their slaves allow some genies to deceive themselves into believing they are as powerful as the gods. Some go as far as to demand that mortals of other realms - even whole continents or worlds - bow down before them.

[Psyren]

That's a DMG character, and I know a number of DM's who do not allow it as a player option.

While I see where you're coming from, presumably a player combing his books for Abyssal-themed options is playing with a more morally-permissive DM.

(On that note, I could see Orcus and his crew sponsoring a few Death Clerics and/or Undead Warlocks.)

[Unoriginal]

I love me some GenieLock but I must add in that the Noble Genie's notions of self-thought god-like abilities are laughable. CR 11

The Noble Genie in the book is the equivalent of the Noble NPC statblock: somewhat more powerful than Commoners/average Genie, but not by much.

Other Noble Genies can be much more powerful. Especially if they get a planar domain.

[Witty Username]

W-what?

Very bad? I don't think so lmao. It's like second or third best in class. Hexblade is better, celestial might be, but warlock has the best boss killer in the game with hurl through hell, which is also the coolest ability in the game. They get fireball on a short rest and thp like it's going out of style...


It is probably a YMMV thing, some optimization circles harsh on blast spells a lot. Fiend lock is mostly blast spells so those circles harsh on it.
If I were ranking it is the middle subclass of the PHB ones, and is beaten out by most of the post PHB subclasses though.
Totally worth it for hurl through hell though.


To the overall point, I definitely think we could use more bad guy material. PCs are kinda shoehorned into heroic for the most part. Conquest paladin, necromancer wizard, whispers bard, warlock and Rogue are pretty much all we get, and the occasional messed up illusionist. A demonic cleric domain would be nice.

[strangebloke]

It is probably a YMMV thing, some optimization circles harsh on blast spells a lot. Fiend lock is mostly blast spells so those circles harsh on it.
If I were ranking it is the middle subclass of the PHB ones, and is beaten out by most of the post PHB subclasses though.
Totally worth it for hurl through hell though.

Death is the most effective form of action denial, and 10d6 on a short rest in a 20 foot radius is a compelling means to get there.

[Waazraath]

Could be so many flavorful subclasses for a demonically tainted character, we already have a race that gets the fiend side of the spectrum with the lawful evil devil spawns of thieflings so why demons getting no love?

Could see a demonic rager barbarian, demonic bloodline sorcerer, Baphomet warlock and so on.

Summary: We need a “book of vile darkness” for 5e!

Isn't this just 5e's snail pace release schedule, and the lack of player options in general in this edition? I mean, after, what, 8 years, we finally got a Book of Dragons (in "dungeons and bloody dragons"), and it had 2 subclasses, 3 feats, and 3 races. That's... very, very, little. 3.5 had had by then two base classes (dragon shaman and draconic initiate) a dozens of draconcic 'subclasses' (prestige classes), I guess over a 100 feats, lots of races, alternative class features, and the like.

So yeah... we could use an equivalent of the 'book of vile darkness' from 3.0 (or fiendisch codex from 3.5). bit also a book of abberations, book of undead, book of celestials, etc. - but we probably won't get them, and if we get them they will have 2 subclasses and that's it. *sigh*

[Unoriginal]

3.5 had had by then two base classes (dragon shaman and draconic initiate) a dozens of draconcic 'subclasses' (prestige classes), I guess over a 100 feats, lots of races, alternative class features, and the like.

And the overwhelming majority of those were so bad you'd only take them if you were committed to a theme at the cost of being notably underwhelming compared to the rest of the party, if your DM gave them a boost, or if someone had found some kind of combo that'd require one of them.

[Kane0]

Why? Probably because Demons are evil bad guys and things they influence are tained as such, and that doesnt make for many heroes like default D&D likes to assume. Sure you can buck the trend, but there is a trend to buck.

That said, there are a smattering if things like the fiend warlock that cover it, and a bunch more that can be reflavored as well. And of course there is nothing stopping you from houseruling and homebrewing.

Edit: Tiefling barbarian or paladin would probably work well, especially with their racial feat options. Most warlocks are easy to work in, but clerics, wizards, sorcerers and some bards would also work fine. Fighters and rogues are pretty much blank slates you can do almost anything with, and hell even something like a reskinned wildfire druid, dragon monk or ranger could do it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Mostly Demon themed subclasses would have a lot of redundancy with existing subclasses. It's not impossible that we'll get Demonologist Wizards and Destruction Paladins, but it's unlikely.

Add to that the fact that we're again in a period where D&D is actively pushing 'play heroes', and I suspect even antiheroic subclasses like the Oath of Glory will be rare. Demons cause a problem for the current image the designers want to push, as they're made of evil, near universally unredeemable, and don't have the Devil's Lawfulness to make them scammable or pushed towards pragmatically Good actions. Try to use the letter of the deal to walk away from a demonic pact with Warlock powers and you'll receive the title of 'breakfast'. Yes you have exceptions like Fall-From-Grace, but they're meant to be as rare as highly Lawful Githzerai. Who are certainly meant to be Chaotic by default, why else would they live in Limbo?

[Waazraath]

And the overwhelming majority of those were so bad you'd only take them if you were committed to a theme at the cost of being notably underwhelming compared to the rest of the party, if your DM gave them a boost, or if someone had found some kind of combo that'd require one of them.

Nah, you're too negative.

Base classes: both dragon initiate and dragon shaman are very solid,
Prestige classes: lots of (almost) full casters, which was in that edition to be enough to be on the good side of the power curve, several decent to good monk prestige classes (draconic initate was awesome), dragon slayer 1 was almost a auto-include in gish builds,
Feats: lots of good to great ones: the draconic aura's, the metabreath feats, a bunch of overpowered ones (dragon cohort, dragonwrought), at lots of 'just decent' ones.
acf's and races: lots good or decent ones

So you actually had a bunch of different options as a player, of almost every class though some (full casters, paladins, monks) more than others (barbarians, warlocks, rogues).

As for demons, to return to the OP a bit, I opened my Fiendish Codex II for lolz, it didn't have any prestige classes, but a list of (some?) demon related prestige classes from earlier content (including some very interesting ones), and a whole bunch of very interesting 'abyssal heritor' feats which were 'touched by the abyss but not evil' in flavor and that allowed almost every character a bunch of interesting options. So everybody could had that kind of flavour (and mechanically linked interesting abilities) for the picking.

Of course, there is a lot of middle ground between 3.5's "release 100 not-playtested feats every month and there sure will be some that work" and 5e's "hey every 3 years you can have 1" (and yes both are exagerated). I don't mind they moved a way from 3.5 release schedule. But after 8 years, it starts to get rather annoying that pretty standard fantasy tropes are not or only hardly or badly supported (mechanically at least) by the system - somehting which is imo illustrated quite well by the OP.

[Anonymouswizard]

I remember the Dragonfire Adept being cool, although I never got to play one. Sure it was just a dragon themed Warlock, but starting out with a breath weapon is the definition of awesome.
So yeah, Dragon Warlock please!

[NotPrior]

I feel like part of the reason is that demons are pretty much the biggest bad in the standard cosmology.

Obviously there are monsters and factions which are a bigger threat than the Abyss, but these are usually either flexibly evil (eg good undead being everywhere you look), somewhat reliable (eg devils and the pact primeval) or pretty obscure (eg nobody has ever really cared about Yugoloths).

Demons however are SO evil and SO unreliable and absolutely everywhere. They are poster children for irredeemable destructive murder hordes.

[Chronos]

Yeah, I don't understand why we still don't have a dragon warlock subclass. I mean, dragons!

To the OP, I'd never actually noticed before now that tieflings are specifically associated with devils, and if anyone else at my table ever knew it, we've been ignoring it, because all three of the tieflings we've had in the party have been demonic in origin. As for fiend warlock, the only things they have that point towards devils rather than demons are the Command spell (which you don't even need to take), and the name of the Hurl Through Hell ability. Mostly, it's based on killing stuff and fire, both of which are on-brand for both demons and devils.

[Kane0]

Yeah, I don't understand why we still don't have a dragon warlock subclass. I mean, dragons!


Apparently theres been like three different versions in the works previously, but nothing made it even to UA

[Anonymouswizard]

Apparently theres been like three different versions in the works previously, but nothing made it even to UA

Probably because with D&D dragons being as varied as they are they couldn't settle on a theme for 'makes a pact with dragons' as easily as 'descended from dragons'.

Me? I'd go for Dragon Warlocks being empowered as spies and thieves. It's probably what your average dragon wants out of a Warlock, instead of the destructive tank most people would think of. Give them things like alternate humanoid forms (do dragons still have those?), limited emotion manipulation, and possibly a limited bonus on skill checks. Maybe make it to Pact of the Talisman as Hexblades are to Pact of the Blade.

Maybe I should actually write that up and post it to the Homebrew section.

[Kane0]

Me? I'd go for Dragon Warlocks being empowered as spies and thieves. It's probably what your average dragon wants out of a Warlock, instead of the destructive tank most people would think of. Give them things like alternate humanoid forms (do dragons still have those?), limited emotion manipulation, and possibly a limited bonus on skill checks. Maybe make it to Pact of the Talisman as Hexblades are to Pact of the Blade.

Maybe I should actually write that up and post it to the Homebrew section.

I think you're onto something

[Naanomi]

Dragons historically haven't been the 'empower servants with supernatural abilities' type creatures that extraplanars are, conceptually it isn't as strong as a fit for me (though I expect to see one someday anyways)

[Amnestic]

My dragon warlock was just a retread of the dragonfire adept from 3.5 - focused on the breath weapon. Felt appropriate since they were both invocation classes back then.

[animorte]

Dragons historically haven't been the 'empower servants with supernatural abilities' type creatures that extraplanars are, conceptually it isn't as strong as a fit for me (though I expect to see one someday anyways)

Correct, although I could easily imagine there must be a few with the inclination to take advantage of that sort of deal.

[Bohandas]

Yeah, I don't understand why we still don't have a dragon warlock subclass. I mean, dragons!

I mean heck, even 3.5 had one (the Dragonfire Adept)

[stoutstien]

Probably because with D&D dragons being as varied as they are they couldn't settle on a theme for 'makes a pact with dragons' as easily as 'descended from dragons'.

Me? I'd go for Dragon Warlocks being empowered as spies and thieves. It's probably what your average dragon wants out of a Warlock, instead of the destructive tank most people would think of. Give them things like alternate humanoid forms (do dragons still have those?), limited emotion manipulation, and possibly a limited bonus on skill checks. Maybe make it to Pact of the Talisman as Hexblades are to Pact of the Blade.

Maybe I should actually write that up and post it to the Homebrew section.
The dragon speaker in fizban hints at this. An ambassador/spy/eyes n ears is probably something a powerful dragon would want via a pact.

[Millstone85]

Yeah, I don't understand why we still don't have a dragon warlock subclass. I mean, dragons!Well, gaining power from a pact with a dragon was already snatched by the sorcerer.

Seriously, it is in the text of the Draconic Bloodline sorcerous origin. One of your ancestors might have "made a bargain with a dragon" or you might yourself "be the first of a new bloodline, as a result of a pact".

And I still think that, conversely, we have the warlock to blame for the absence of Fey Ancestry and Fiendish Legacy sorcerous origins.

[Kane0]

Seriously, it is in the text of the Draconic Bloodline sorcerous origin. One of your ancestors might have "made a bargain with a dragon" or you might yourself "be the first of a new bloodline, as a result of a pact".

And I still think that, conversely, we have the warlock to blame for the absence of Fey Ancestry and Fiendish Legacy sorcerous origins.

Also right on the money.

[Chronos]

Yeah, I'd just make the dragon warlock a port of the 3.5 dragonfire adept. Give them an at-will breath weapon, that's about as powerful overall as Eldritch Blast, and a few ways to improve it, plus a few ribbons like unarmored AC.

[TrialsofHualnem]

There are a lot of other tropes to discover, instead of doubling down on something taken by Fiend Warlock for example. There's definitely more you can build, but I would assume that's their angle on it. All about getting as many players interested as possible.

[loki_ragnarock]

As malign chaos given form, how would you codify them into a standard manifestation?

The Abyss and significant enough creatures from it also have this tendency towards driving people mad in some form or fashion. How would you model that part in a subclass?

It's not enough to just be good at fighting, you'd have to really capture the essence of Abyss and get those themes nailed down to produce standard mechanics, but it seems like you'd be trying to nail down jello. Sentient, malevolent jello.

Also, if you focus too much on, you know, Demons... we've already survived the satanic panic once, and in a society that seems to be hell bent on banning books it just might not be worth it to explore as a product.

EDIT
Shoot, we're talking about dragons now?

I really shouldn't post after running.

[HPisBS]

I 'brewed an Abyssal Sorcerer (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJ4FAR-D) years ago.

Lvl 1: Darkvision + Abyssal language + conjure 13+Dex mod armor & a shortsword that provides thp equal to the damage dealt on a killing blow.

Lvl 6: Shortsword counts as magical + gets a Brisingr buff, providing or absorbing light and dealing Cha mod fire or necrotic damage.
+ can spend 1 sp to animate it like a Spiritual Weapon.

Lvl 14: Choose one: Dragon Demon Wings, or Shadow Walk

Lvl 18: Flame On! on your armor (w/ a greater light radius), + Hellish Rebuke-like reaction to deal Sorc lvl dmg as a ranged spell attack, or just auto-dmg if the attacker is w/in 5 ft.

If I were making it today, I'd probably start with a more subdued version of the TCE Sorc Origins. Give a list of lvl 1-5 spells and let the player pick 1 bonus spell of each lvl.

After that, Lvl 1 could be:

Manifest Armor b.a.: (choose studded leather [12 + Dex] or chain shirt [13 + Dex {max 2}])
Improve Armor for 1 hour by spending sorc pts (1st time for free?) ... Either just improve to +X armor or transform to breastplate, etc)
Darkvision (60 ft base, 90 ft if already have it from some other source)
Ribbon: Abyssal language & +1d4 Insight vs fiends?


Lvl 6: Demonic Rage that's basically Fire Shield as a reaction

Lvl 14: Bonus action to gain 1 bullet point of Tasha's Otherworldly Guise (lower planes only) per sp spent for 1 minute. 2 sp each to increase the duration to 10 minutes. 4 sp each for 1 hour.
(basically like Aberrant Mind's lvl 14)

Lvl 18: ... 3 sp for Magic Resistance?
Or, since you can get that via (broken) races, maybe
Abyssal Shadow - spend 5 sp to imbue shadow with demonic power, turning it into a Shadow Demon that you control with a bonus action and can telepathically communicate / share senses with for 1 minute? (10 sp for 10 minutes??)