Recaster Spell Selection

[Fero]

Hi,

I am playing a Warmage (CA) Sandshaper (SS) who will eventually take levels in Recaster (RoE). I am looking for suggestions for the expanded knowledge class feature (learn a spell from any list). I am mostly interested in utility spells as I already have a lot of direct damage and control spells. I would appreciate any suggestions of what to add or cut.

The spells I am considering are:
1- Teleport,
2- Dimension door (trapsmith lvl 2),
3- heal (lvl 5),
4- Heart of Water (CM),
5- Permeable Form (LoM),
6- Ruin Delver's Fortune (SC),
7- Delay Death (SC),
8- Primal Instinct (DrM),
9- Eyes of the Oracle (DrM),
10- Divine Insight (CC),
11- Guidance of the Avatar (Web),
12- Fleeting Fortune (CoV),
13- Phantom Stag (SC),
14- Arcane Spellsurge (DrM)
16- Dispell, Greater (Trapsmith 3),
17- Fire Shuriken (SC),
18- Dragonsight (SC), and
19- Shalantha's Delicate Disk (LEoF)

[Chronicled]

Hi,

I am playing a Warmage (CA) Sandshaper (SS) who will eventually take levels in Recaster (RoE). I am looking for suggestions for the expanded knowledge class feature (learn a spell from any list). I am mostly interested in utility spells as I already have a lot of direct damage and control spells. I would appreciate any suggestions of what to add or cut.

The spells I am considering are:
1- Teleport,
2- Dimension door (trapsmith lvl 2),
3- heal (lvl 5),
4- Heart of Water (CM),
5- Permeable Form (LoM),
6- Ruin Delver's Fortune (SC),
7- Delay Death (SC),
8- Primal Instinct (DrM),
9- Eyes of the Oracle (DrM),
10- Divine Insight (CC),
11- Guidance of the Avatar (Web),
12- Fleeting Fortune (CoV),
13- Phantom Stag (SC),
14- Arcane Spellsurge (DrM)
16- Dispell, Greater (Trapsmith 3),
17- Fire Shuriken (SC),
18- Dragonsight (SC), and
19- Shalantha's Delicate Disk (LEoF)

Personally, Heal is such a choice spell to be able to pull out as an arcane caster that it's hard to pass up. Healing might not be the most optimal choice most of the time but you are getting the very best of a whole extra type of class role available for a single spell in your spellbook--and when you need it, you need it.

[RandomPeasant]

If you want to cast heal as a Warmage just be a Rainbow Servant like a normal person.

[Fero]

Thank you for your insight. Unfortunately, Rainbow Servant won't work because: 1- my character is not good, and 2- my DM and I agree that RAI, RS loses 3 caster levels.

[RandomPeasant]

Fair cop on the alignment, but Sandshaper + Recaster loses at least two caster levels. In any case, I'd only pick heal if your party doesn't have a divine caster, as you're better off having the guy who gets to wear full plate cast it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd suggest Teleport if no one else in your party can do it, Heart of Water otherwise.


Thank you for your insight. Unfortunately, Rainbow Servant won't work because: 1- my character is not good, and 2- my DM and I agree that RAI, RS loses 3 caster levels.
Rainbow Servant with 3 or more lost caster levels is a worse Mystic Theurge that doesn't get dual slots at all and only gets cleric spells at ECL 15.
All that does is turn it into another class no one ever takes which would be a shame. It's not like 10/10 RS is so incredibly OP that everyone picks it when it's allowed.

I'm curious though, where do you get 3 caster levels from? By the text it's 10/10 casting and by the table it's 6/10 casting so i could see either of those, but i've never seen anyone make a case for 3.

[RandomPeasant]

Rainbow Servant with 3 or more lost caster levels is a worse Mystic Theurge that doesn't get dual slots at all and only gets cleric spells at ECL 15.

At 3 lost levels I would argue it's competitive with Mystic Theurge once you get the capstone, as long as you are playing some Warmage-type caster. Yes, you get less spells per day, but casting spontaneously off the entire Cleric list is a genuinely big deal.


All that does is turn it into another class no one ever takes which would be a shame. It's not like 10/10 RS is so incredibly OP that everyone picks it when it's allowed.

Rainbow Servant is a very strange class. Even with text over table, the first nine levels are pretty mediocre. You get three domains, none of which are amazing (and Good and Law have a lot of redundancy). You get some minor additional bonuses, of which only the wings are worth mentioning (and you get air walk from one of your domains, which is at least situationally better than your 10 mins/day wings). And then at 10th level you get a class feature that ranges from garbage (if you are a Sorcerer) to one of the best things any PrC does (if you are a Warmage). If you are going to be spending a significant amount of your time adventuring after 16th level, or whatever level you get the capstone if you do early entry, it is the objectively best choice for a fixed list caster. If you are not, there is almost certainly something better for you to do, though a 1-level dip isn't terrible. It's exactly the way a PrC shouldn't work, and that's without mentioning how incredibly annoying it is to deal with someone who gets to evaluate every single Cleric spell that exists every time he takes an action.

[sleepyphoenixx]

At 3 lost levels I would argue it's competitive with Mystic Theurge once you get the capstone, as long as you are playing some Warmage-type caster. Yes, you get less spells per day, but casting spontaneously off the entire Cleric list is a genuinely big deal.
Mystic Theurge without early entry isn't exactly high optimization. And the warmage list doesn't exactly add much to a MT combo.
Sucking for 9 levels for a big payoff is terrible balance too. Spending the majority of your career barely getting anything beyond your casting progression is price enough imo.

That's even more important at lower optimization levels than high ones since a low-op player probably lacks the system mastery to make up for his Warmage being up to 3 levels behind in casting for most of the game. Or to take full advantage of the full-list access when he gets it.

If i was to houserule Rainbow Servant i'd change the cleric spell access to increase with every PrC level - orisons at RS 1, 1st level at RS 2 and so on but leave it at full casting.
Sure, that makes it really good for spontaneous full-list casters, but it doesn't make them better than a wizard or cleric.
If you're playing a low- or mid-op game without T1-2 classes at all by all means, ban it.
But as long as those aren't banned or nerfed i see no reason to do it to the Rainbow Servant when all it does it let some of the lower-tier casters catch up.


and that's without mentioning how incredibly annoying it is to deal with someone who gets to evaluate every single Cleric spell that exists every time he takes an action.
If it's too annoying to deal with you should be upfront and ban it, not nerf it to the point nobody wants to take it.

Less drastically you could just give your players a time limit to decide their action if they're that bad about it. It's no different from someone playing a summoner.

[RandomPeasant]

Mystic Theurge without early entry isn't exactly high optimization. And the warmage list doesn't exactly add much to a MT combo.

Sure. But remember that the thing OP is doing is losing three caster levels too. I agree that normal-entry Mystic Theurge or 7/10 Rainbow Servant are not good options in general, but compared to the standard OP is advancing, they're largely fine.


If i was to houserule Rainbow Servant i'd change the cleric spell access to increase with every PrC level - orisons at RS 1, 1st level at RS 2 and so on but leave it at full casting.
Sure, that makes it really good for spontaneous full-list casters, but it doesn't make them better than a wizard or cleric.

That is the kind of thing I'd do, but unless you are also limiting the number of spells the class gains, I very much disagree that it doesn't make you better than Wizard or Cleric. The Cleric's faster progression is nice, but it's not nicer than full spontaneous casting. I think I would rework it to something like "gain a spell off the Cleric list for each spell you gain/gained from your base class". That would tune it down for fixed-list casters, up for other casters, and dramatically reduce the option paralysis while still being a highly effective class.

[Fero]

I'd suggest Teleport if no one else in your party can do it, Heart of Water otherwise.


Rainbow Servant with 3 or more lost caster levels is a worse Mystic Theurge that doesn't get dual slots at all and only gets cleric spells at ECL 15.
All that does is turn it into another class no one ever takes which would be a shame. It's not like 10/10 RS is so incredibly OP that everyone picks it when it's allowed.

I'm curious though, where do you get 3 caster levels from? By the text it's 10/10 casting and by the table it's 6/10 casting so i could see either of those, but i've never seen anyone make a case for 3.

I meant 4 lost caster levels. My mistake :p. Also, the campaign is 1-20 so the RS capstone won't help for most of the game.

With regard to Heart of Water, have you had any experience with it? It seems very useful.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That is the kind of thing I'd do, but unless you are also limiting the number of spells the class gains, I very much disagree that it doesn't make you better than Wizard or Cleric. The Cleric's faster progression is nice, but it's not nicer than full spontaneous casting. I think I would rework it to something like "gain a spell off the Cleric list for each spell you gain/gained from your base class". That would tune it down for fixed-list casters, up for other casters, and dramatically reduce the option paralysis while still being a highly effective class.
A cleric or wizard gets other class features (domains, Abrupt Jaunt, turn undead...) and has the opportunity to take other PrCs that the Warmage can't - he's stuck being a Rainbow Servant for 10 levels or not getting cleric spells for his higher levels.
I think that's a pretty significant cost even if you disregard the real outlier PrCs like Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper.

You still have 9th level spells, but you're trading the spontaneous access for pretty much everything else a wizard or cleric could have gotten in those 10 levels.
Unlimited spontaneous access to a full T1 spell list is no doubt powerful, but i don't think it matches up to 10 levels in a decent PrC when there are already so many options to increase your available spells.
Runestaves, domain icons, scrolls, wands and so on may not be as good as full spontaneous casting, but at least in my experience the difference isn't that big in practice - you're still limited by your spells/day.

I've also found that (for the cleric list especially) a large part of my daily spells ends up long-term buffs.
Or in other words stuff i know i'm going to cast anyway, so i don't need it spontaneously.


I meant 4 lost caster levels. My mistake :p. Also, the campaign is 1-20 so the RS capstone won't help for most of the game.

With regard to Heart of Water, have you had any experience with it? It seems very useful.
The swim speed and waterbreathing are irrelevant 90% of the time (until they suddenly aren't), but a quickened short-duration Freedom of Movement from a 3rd level slot is useful for the rest of the game. Much easier to use in practice than FoM's 10 minute/level duration and a level lower too.

The fortification you get from combining the Heart of ... spells is also a nice bonus, since you want at least Heart of Earth up anyway and Heart of Air is low level and useful enough to be a no-brainer too.
Heart of Fire is probably not worth its spell slot alone but getting Heavy Fortification for it makes it a lot more valuable.

[Fero]

The FoM is very attractive. Strangely the water breathing is also attractive as I suspect a large chunk of the game will be underwater. Unfortunately, I don't think I can get any other Heart of spells :(.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The FoM is very attractive. Strangely the water breathing is also attractive as I suspect a large chunk of the game will be underwater. Unfortunately, I don't think I can get any other Heart of spells :(.

In a water campaign definitely take Heart of Water. If you're actually going to use that aspect on top of the FoM effect it's a fantastic choice.

[Troacctid]

Take dragonblood spell-pactand you can parlay it into as many extra known spells as you want, so long as you can find someone willing to swap.

[Fero]

Is that from Dragon Magic? Do I need to be dragonblooded?

[Troacctid]

Is that from Dragon Magic? Do I need to be dragonblooded?
You do, yes. It's from Dragons of Faerun.

I do like most of the list of spells you're considering. I think if you're already a sand shaper and you're looking for a utility effect, then my top pick of those options would be dimension door. It's a really versatile problem-solver with a million practical applications. I like to say that in order to solve every encounter, a mage only really needs the three D's: damage, dispelling, and dimension door. Right now you're 2 for 3.

Aside from that, the ones I would take off of your short list are eyes of the oracle (duration is too short), divine insight and fleeting fortune (if guidance of the avatar is allowed then you just take that instead), phantom stag (just get a suit of ethereal armor [DotF] if you want that effect), arcane spellsurge (if you need more quickened spells, just get some aurial sapphires [CC] instead), greater dispel magic (would be great if you didn't already have the regular version, but you do, so you should get a new effect), and fire shuriken (this is the only spell you shortlisted where I can't figure out why you would ever want it).

[Fero]

By itself, Eyes of the Oracle is not a great choice. However, it combos beautifully with the Recaster's Pseudo quicken. Fire Shuriken is an odd duck. Our house interpretation is that the shuriken: (a) last forever until thrown, and (b) can be augmented by MM. As such, they can be very powerful (although redundant with my other spells).

[sleepyphoenixx]

By itself, Eyes of the Oracle is not a great choice. However, it combos beautifully with the Recaster's Pseudo quicken. Fire Shuriken is an odd duck. Our house interpretation is that the shuriken: (a) last forever until thrown, and (b) can be augmented by MM. As such, they can be very powerful (although redundant with my other spells).

Fire Shuriken is a little awkwardly worded, but i don't think it's supposed to create permanent nonmagical shuriken made of fire (how's that even supposed to work?).
First it's an Evocation, not Conjuration (Creation), so that's a strong indicator that it's not intended to produce lasting objects.

That also meshes with the rules for weaponlike spells in Rules Compendium:

Any spell that requires an attack roll is
weaponlike
Fire Shuriken is an effect spell, but it mentions throwing them as a normal ranged attack, which i think is enough to qualify as weaponlike.

And for weaponlike spells casting time overrides normal attack rules unless stated otherwise:


Attacks

Casting time takes precedence over normal
rules for attacks, unless a spell’s description says otherwise.
If a spell allows its caster to make multiple attacks and has
a casting time of 1 standard action, all those attacks occur
during that standard action. The caster uses the highest
applicable attack bonus for each attack in such a case.

Going by those rules you make one ranged attack per 3 CL as a standard action, then the shuriken disappear like any other instantaneous evocation spell.
That makes fire shuriken basically assassin scorching ray, which is a little more reasonable than the interpretation that it produces nonmagical weapons made of solid fire (that doesn't burn you). Somehow.

[Troacctid]

By itself, Eyes of the Oracle is not a great choice. However, it combos beautifully with the Recaster's Pseudo quicken.
You have plenty of other spells to quicken with it. I don't think that's something you need to worry about.


Fire Shuriken is an odd duck. Our house interpretation is that the shuriken: (a) last forever until thrown, and (b) can be augmented by MM. As such, they can be very powerful (although redundant with my other spells).
Even with metamagic, it doesn't seem like what you're looking for.

[Fero]

I think you are correct in both respects. What do you think about Ruin Delver's Fortune? It seems like it would add a lot to my survivability.

[RandomPeasant]

Take dragonblood spell-pactand you can parlay it into as many extra known spells as you want, so long as you can find someone willing to swap.

dragonblood spell-pact works just fine if the other guy is casting it, there's really no need to learn it yourself (bar maybe "it'll be easier to fast talk my DM into letting me turn redundant orb spells into gold this way").

[Troacctid]

I think you are correct in both respects. What do you think about Ruin Delver's Fortune? It seems like it would add a lot to my survivability.
If your goal is to increase your survivability, it is a good way to do that, provided you have high Charisma to support it. I wouldn't consider it a utility spell, though. It is primarily a combat spell, albeit a defensive one. (Yes, you can use it for traps too, I suppose.)