OOTS #1259 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Aelyn]

I may identify a little too closely with Minrah here...

[Peelee]

I love that they don't need to worry about Elan during war councils because he also doesn't want to be involved.

[RMS Oceanic]

Unstructured alliance building is Elan's forte.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Now if only every meeting was as much fun as Elan and Sunny will have.

[Psyren]

Finally, back on track!

And Lien and O-Chul, please talk more about MitD on-camera dammit.


I love that they don't need to worry about Elan during war councils because he also doesn't want to be involved.

I'm more worried that Belkar now wants to be :smalleek:

[Metastachydium]

New theory, based on her line from the last panel: Haley is really just V disguised as a human (whereas V is really just V not disguised as a human.)

[dancrilis]

I don't know if getting rid of the guy who knows narrative structure in a structured narrative is the best idea frankly - he could at least tell them that they need to do all their planning off panel or else the plan is likely to fail.

[Precure]

Haley is pretty much done with Elan at this point.

[internisus]

"an unstructured alliance-strengthening exercise"

I love it. Brilliant.

Roy's positivity is refreshing, too!

[Frozenstep]

Jokes on all of you, Elan's the one getting out a big meeting that could have just been an email. Who's the real smart one now, huh!?

[Metastachydium]

I don't know if getting rid of the guy who knows narrative structure in a structured narrative is the best idea frankly - he could at least tell them that they need to do all their planning off panel or else the plan is likely to fail.

I'd argue that based on the empirical evidence at his disposal, Roy would probably dismiss that concern (but, perhaps, not with a comment containing the phrase "dull efficiency" this time around) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).

[hamishspence]

I love Haley's use of managerspeak here.

[MoonCat]

So how many of us just had a newly-contextualised flashback to their childhoods right along with Minrah? :smalleek::smallredface:

[Fyraltari]

Jokes on all of you, Elan's the one getting out a big meeting that could have just been an email. Who's the real smart one now, huh!?

I know the joke but this is precisely the kind of meeting that couldn't have been an email.

[Doug Lampert]

I know the joke but this is precisely the kind of meeting that couldn't have been an email.

There actually are meetings that serve a useful purpose and where the best method is to get everyone to sit around the same table at the same time.

It's just that we're so used to the other kind that most people don't expect that.

[elros]

I would not thought Minrah would need to distracted by counting buttons. She is so active and strong willed that I think she would have been training with the soldiers and daring anyone to tell her not to!

[Resileaf]

Haley is pretty much done with Elan at this point.

Done? Hardly, she just knows her man is not the 'sit-down-at-a-meeting' type.

[Frozenstep]

I would not thought Minrah would need to distracted by counting buttons. She is so active and strong willed that I think she would have been training with the soldiers and daring anyone to tell her not to!

That's exactly why she needed be distracted with a task, so Nana could finish cooking or something without Minrah leaving line of sight.

[Duncun]

Sounds like Sirini is still cautiously pessimistic. She is ok with planning to plan, but still is unsure that the plan will work if implemented.

[dmc91356]

I tend to read the strip titles first, and could not figure out what was going on with that until the end. Well played.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yeah Elan is adorable but i want to listen to important plot!!

[KorvinStarmast]

Haley is pretty much done with Elan at this point.Nope. Seems to me that she's acting like his wife aka telling him what to do.

I may identify a little too closely with Minrah here... That line was beautifully delivered.

I love that they don't need to worry about Elan during war councils because he also doesn't want to be involved. Never invite to a meeting someone who doesn't want to be there and whose input / disruption will not be needed. IME, a lot of people get dragged into meetings who can be better employed (for that time period) elsewhere.

Done? Hardly, she just knows her man is not the 'sit-down-at-a-meeting' type. Yes she does. :smallcool:

I liked Roy's "We got knocked off track so many times that we're all the way back on track" :smallsmile:

[Reboot]

This is really infantilising Elan, in a way which is particularly bad coming from his girlfriend & life partner...

[Fyraltari]

Nope. Seems to me that she's acting like his wife aka telling him what to do.

Honestly, in that line she reads more like a mom than like a wife.

[Bardiche]

I love Haley's use of managerspeak here.

Not surprising - all Rogues know how to speak Thieves' Cant! ;-)

[Hiro Quester]

I sooooo much want to know the plan, but recognize that it’s better for story advancement, and for success, if the planning to make a plan meeting happens off-panel.

So I’m hoping for a cut to Team Evil next, followed by the execution of said plan.

[Shining Wrath]

You know, I think Haley and Serini are starting to see eye to eye. Rogue sisterhood advances!

Roy's point is well taken; the Order is in their strongest position relative to Team Evil ever. Yes I know Xykon's a epic sorcerer lich; I also know he doesn't have the HP to take everyone on Team Order hitting him with a good shot in one round. V's best move might be to spam Dispel Magic and keeping stripping away his defensive buffs; Roy focuses on keeping him from casting; Haley and Belkar go for max damage, while O Chul Smites Evil with enthusiasm, and the clerics buff / heal / attack as situation demands. He'd be gone in a couple of rounds, and he's not teleporting away if Roy can disrupt (or V / Durkon can counterspell).

For grins, Blackwing can try to grab any shiny objects Xykon might be carrying.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is really infantilising Elan, in a way which is particularly bad coming from his girlfriend & life partner... Once one gets married, that sort of thing happens more often, not less.
So I’m hoping for a cut to Team Evil next, followed by the execution of said plan. I am hoping for a cut to the IFCC, but I doubt I'll get what I want. A cut to Team Evil is about due.

[hagnat]

V's best move might be to spam Dispel Magic and keeping stripping away his defensive buffs; Roy focuses on keeping him from casting

V should learn from one of his lowest moments, the fight against the Black Dragon on Tiny Island.
Xykon is an impressive foe. Without his magic spells and artifacts, however, he is nothing more than a skeleton with some special abilities.

[Doug Lampert]

V's best move might be to spam Dispel Magic and keeping stripping away his defensive buffs;


You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

Checks do not autosucceed on a 20, V can not possibly succeed in dispelling anything that X casts with dispel magic, and needs to roll a 18 or higher for RC, assuming that RC is still level 17.

Greater Dispel (level 6 slot) can allows V to roll at +17 or so (assuming level 16 + bauble, note that the bauble is currently out of range), and succeed against RC on a 11+ (still assuming only level 17 for RC) and against X on an unknown roll that needs to be a 15 at the absolute minimum (CL 17 for V and X is only CL 21).

This is not great. Antimagic field at level 6 is a better suggestion, but they've got Sunny to do that for free (within limits).

[Zhorn]

Reading comic
pleasant smile
Minrah's last line and I burst out laughing loud enough to wake the house... being yelled at to go to bed :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

I forget the specific wording for Rich's reason for including her, but good lord I love her interactions with the party.

Also I like Haley muttering "if you hit me with your staff, you're going to be eating it." It wasn't that funny at the start, and that was actually a fairly reasonable question. Though I don't think Serini would have hit her for that either way.

Mostly just "me like Minrah" here, not a whole lot to say.

[MelTorefas]

I originally read the title as "Bite size, color, and number of holes", which led me down a very different mental path.

[Ionathus]

I don't know if getting rid of the guy who knows narrative structure in a structured narrative is the best idea frankly - he could at least tell them that they need to do all their planning off panel or else the plan is likely to fail.

Eh, well, Roy has already relied on Elan's expertise once or twice today ("Is this it? Is this where the final battle happens?"), so he has definitely contributed. The other important thing to consider is that if you rely too much on narrative structure, you might end up like Tarquin.


There actually are meetings that serve a useful purpose and where the best method is to get everyone to sit around the same table at the same time.

It's just that we're so used to the other kind that most people don't expect that.

No joke, my current job is like this. You're only in a meeting if the meeting is important and your input/awareness is directly required. Meetings are efficient and we're done on time. I don't know how they're doing it - my current guess is witchcraft. It's freaking eerie.

[danielxcutter]

While I am not exactly an expert in how the world outside college works, that sounds less witchcraft and more a divine miracle.

Of course, depending on the theistic situation it may technically be both but let's not get too much into religion. :smalltongue:

[elros]

I am hoping for a cut to the IFCC, but I doubt I'll get what I want. A cut to Team Evil is about due.
I wonder how OOTS will take the IFCC into account, because they know they can stop V anytime they want. It seems IFCC wants the last gate destroyed, so they do anything they can to move Team Evil closer to the final gate.

[Ionathus]

I forget the specific wording for Rich's reason for including her, but good lord I love her interactions with the party.

Also I like Haley muttering "if you hit me with your staff, you're going to be eating it." It wasn't that funny at the start, and that was actually a fairly reasonable question. Though I don't think Serini would have hit her for that either way.

Mostly just "me like Minrah" here, not a whole lot to say.

From what I remember, "new characters equals new jokes & dynamics to explore" was a main reason! I think one big element of adding Minrah was that we got to have an outsider's perspective on Belkar (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html): the way she interacts with him is entirely different than how the rest of the team interacts with him, and helps to show how he's changed from original perceptions!

Side note: I've really enjoyed the character density of OotS. It never feels like there are too many characters or too many dangling subplots, and almost every detour has felt crucial to understanding and appreciating the main storyline. Just about the only part you could cut without losing too much context is the Bandana/Andi dynamic, although even that I really appreciated for a normie's insight into how crazy the OotS-verse has gotten. How do random everyday mercenaries react when they suddenly get caught up in a plot to save the world?


This is really infantilising Elan, in a way which is particularly bad coming from his girlfriend & life partner...


Honestly, in that line she reads more like a mom than like a wife.

I've had this back-and-forth feeling about Haley & Elan's dynamic before: it's fun to have a fictional relationship where the guy is the complete ditz but still romantic, empathetic, and competent (in his own ways). However, some of the jokes of Haley managing Elan's behavior do read as very maternal, especially that exchange when he'd been lured away by Sunny which verged on feeling almost icky for me. I think their dynamic is at its strongest in scenes like bartering in Sandsedge, where they're both acting like adults but Elan simply has much lower savvy.


Once one gets married, that sort of thing happens more often, not less.

I disagree with that generalization. The vast majority of married couples I know treat each other with mutual respect.

[Lord Torath]

Man, that last panel had me cracking up! Minrah's expression! :smallbiggrin:

Also: "a plan to plan a plan is as good a plan as any"

Thanks, Rich!

[NordicNooob]

I tend to read the strip titles first, and could not figure out what was going on with that until the end. Well played.

Also look at the arrangement of the cast in the first panel: grouped by size (humans, halflings, dwarves), color (green for the halflings, grey for the dwarves, and the analogy doesn't really work for Haley and Elan), and number (distinct groups of two all around). Roy also groups himself with the paladins later, making a blue group.

Least, that's what I'm seeing.

[KorvinStarmast]

I disagree with that generalization. The vast majority of married couples I know treat each other with mutual respect. I should have probably added "YMMV" to that post.

I wonder how OOTS will take the IFCC into account, because they know they can stop V anytime they want. It seems IFCC wants the last gate destroyed, so they do anything they can to move Team Evil closer to the final gate. V disclosed the IFCC problem to Roy after they left Tarquin behind, but does the whole Order really know and understand what's going on there?

I will opine that full disclosure to the whole team, by V, as regards the IFCC problem is long overdue. I don't think we've seen that on screen yet, V disclosing that to anybody but Roy. (They did get to see V in soul spliced form near the end of DStP, so maybe the full disclosure happened off screen?)

[Ruck]

I tend to read the strip titles first, and could not figure out what was going on with that until the end. Well played.

Hah, I saw the Twitter post so I did the same thing-- I usually don't, but I found myself extremely curious as to how it would factor into the strip while I was reading it.


This is really infantilising Elan, in a way which is particularly bad coming from his girlfriend & life partner...

Eh, she just knows who he is.


No joke, my current job is like this. You're only in a meeting if the meeting is important and your input/awareness is directly required. Meetings are efficient and we're done on time. I don't know how they're doing it - my current guess is witchcraft. It's freaking eerie.

Funny, I was just talking to another friend this morning who just rewatched Office Space, which is, of course, the archetype for the kind of awful workspace that is the opposite of yours.

[bunsen_h]

I'd argue that based on the empirical evidence at his disposal, Roy would probably dismiss that concern (but, perhaps, not with a comment containing the phrase "dull efficiency" this time around) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).

I can easily imagine Sunny and Elan, off having fun, tossing around ideas for how to surprise everybody in helpful ways. For narrative reasons, this will only make a big difference if they come back and tell everyone that they have some secret plans to help. Because you can't have something like that in a well-written story unless it's foreshadowed.


I would not thought Minrah would need to distracted by counting buttons. She is so active and strong willed that I think she would have been training with the soldiers and daring anyone to tell her not to!

There's an age range where sorting buttons is feasible but the soldiers wouldn't want her underfoot. Even assuming that there are classes and activity sessions for children, there may well not be 24-hour child care available, so Minrah's Nana would find her an absorbing activity at home.

I recall that my mother had a big jar of buttons, many of them snipped from old clothes that were about to be thrown out, or repurposed as fabric or rags. I don't remember being tasked with sorting them, though that would have been an excellent activity for me. Once. I would probably have done the sorting more quickly than anyone expected, and then insisted that the buttons be stored in such a way as to preserve the order.

EDIT: I did, at one point, have a jar of pennies, which I won at a Cub Scout meeting by guessing the number of pennies. I'm not certain that I sorted them by age, but I definitely went through the jar and separated out the really old ones.

[TuringTest]

New theory, based on her line from the last panel: Haley is really just V disguised as a human (whereas V is really just V not disguised as a human.)


Halley grew a lot in her growth story arc, and so now she is not afraid to act as a competent manager and leader. It seems natural for rogues to grow into leadership roles.


I'd argue that based on the empirical evidence at his disposal, Roy would probably dismiss that concern (but, perhaps, not with a comment containing the phrase "dull efficiency" this time around) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).

I didn't remember that strip, and now I'm hoping that we will get a resolution to the evil-empire-ruled-by-secret-father storyline before the comic ends. What would be a better way to defeat Tarquin without him looking badass, that to do it entirely off-panel, and with a plan delegated to secondary characters?

[lio45]

"an unstructured alliance-strengthening exercise"

I love it. Brilliant.

Roy's positivity is refreshing, too!You got that wrong, the actual, faithful quote is “an unstructured alliance-strengthening excercise”.

(I came into this thread intending to point out the typo to Rich.)

[gatemansgc]

elan and sunny are so adorable <3

[TuringTest]

I've had this back-and-forth feeling about Haley & Elan's dynamic before: it's fun to have a fictional relationship where the guy is the complete ditz but still romantic, empathetic, and competent (in his own ways). However, some of the jokes of Haley managing Elan's behavior do read as very maternal, especially that exchange when he'd been lured away by Sunny which verged on feeling almost icky for me. I think their dynamic is at its strongest in scenes like bartering in Sandsedge, where they're both acting like adults but Elan simply has much lower savvy.

[...]

The vast majority of married couples I know treat each other with mutual respect.

I don't see Haley as disrespectful, nor an unhealthy dynamic necessarily. Elan is childish in intellectual matters, with intelligence being his dump stat. His growth story arc focused on learning how to manage his emotions, gaining wisdom and behaving as an adult in his family and couple relationships. That's a good basis for a healthy relationship, if that means she has to handle matters that require brain power.

[PontificatusRex]

Talky strip talks about talking in upcoming strips featuring more talking


But will there be a powerpoint?

[TRH]

You know the Order are still only quasi-professionals because they're not holding a pre-meeting first before the meeting.

[Peelee]

Nope. Seems to me that she's acting like his wife aka telling him what to do.



This is really infantilising Elan, in a way which is particularly bad coming from his girlfriend & life partner...Once one gets married, that sort of thing happens more often, not less.

I'll never understand the older generations' jokes about married life, but at least I do understand the incredibly high divorce rate.

[137beth]

Sunny and Elan are the perfect pair:smallbiggrin:
On the other hand: I agree with Reboot that that isn't a good dynamic between Haley and Elan.

[Ruck]

I'll never understand the older generations' jokes about married life, but at least I do understand the incredibly high divorce rate.

They remind me of Mr. Show's parody of Dr. Laura. "Men 'R' stupid, okay? But women 'R' stupider. But we have to get married! I did it, now it's your turn. Get in line! Get in line, you dumb [expletive]!"

[TuringTest]

Talky strip talks about talking in upcoming strips featuring more talking

Thog, is that you?



(White text on white background): But will there be a powerpoint?

We heard that, you know :P


I'll never understand the older generations' jokes about married life, but at least I do understand the incredibly high divorce rate.

Having expectations of a life together sometimes means taking small frustrations with humor. It doesn't mean you don't get something more valuable in return.

(Of course I'm glad that people no longer put up with BIG frustrations -or something worse :shudders:- just because of social pressure and divorce is just one more option among many).

[Daibhid C]

I've had this back-and-forth feeling about Haley & Elan's dynamic before: it's fun to have a fictional relationship where the guy is the complete ditz but still romantic, empathetic, and competent (in his own ways). However, some of the jokes of Haley managing Elan's behavior do read as very maternal, especially that exchange when he'd been lured away by Sunny which verged on feeling almost icky for me. I think their dynamic is at its strongest in scenes like bartering in Sandsedge, where they're both acting like adults but Elan simply has much lower savvy.

Yeah, it's a fine line. I'm okay with "You can go play with Sunny"; if I were given the choice between attending a strategy meeting and having an "unstructured alliance-strengthening excercise" with a child, I'd be fine with someone who knew what my choice would be characterising it that way. "No roughhousing", however, is the point where I think "Okay, mom."

[tomaO2]

Um, shouldn't they be worried about Xykon scrying for them?


Talky strip talks about talking in upcoming strips featuring more talking

In all honestly, when talking about word count per page, I feel like OOTS has the highest counts of any comic I can remember reading that doesn't get into the trap of 'show, don't tell'.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll never understand the older generations' jokes about married life, but at least I do understand the incredibly high divorce rate. I'll have been married (once) for 33 1/2 years one month from today. Any other questions, feel free to ask.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Um, shouldn't they be worried about Xykon scrying for them? Xykon can't scry spontaneously.

He needs to teleport to his Teevo to scry.

In all honestly, when talking about word count per page, I feel like OOTS has the highest counts of any comic I can remember reading that doesn't get into the trap of 'show, don't tell'. That doesn't really seem to be the relevant trap to me. Just saying something is pretty efficient ("Redcloak exhibits sunk cost fallacy"). Showing anything takes much longer. The words are there, for the most part, to show characters emotions/ personalities/ and relationships.

[bunsen_h]

I'll have been married (once) for 33 1/2 years one month from today. Any other questions, feel free to ask.

In three months, it'll be an LP. :smallsmile:

(Explanation for Young People: Back in the day, sound recordings were... ah, never mind, get off my lawn.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I've had this back-and-forth feeling about Haley & Elan's dynamic before: it's fun to have a fictional relationship where the guy is the complete ditz but still romantic, empathetic, and competent (in his own ways). However, some of the jokes of Haley managing Elan's behavior do read as very maternal, especially that exchange when he'd been lured away by Sunny which verged on feeling almost icky for me. Ever read the book "I'm OK, You're OK" {Harris} about transactional analysis?
There was a part in that about the roles people assume in a conversation and various attempts to frame their positions as adult -> child or parent -> child ... which is what Haley is doing.
The author (Harris) does not illustrate that as healthy relationship.

Granted, Rich uses exaggeration for attempted comic effect with great frequency, and poking at tropes/patterns like that also.

While I am not sure if that book was the origin of The Parent, Adult, Child (P-A-C) model, it's the first place I remember seeing it).

My daughter tried to pull that crap on my wife last year (P-C interaction) and caused some interpersonal trauma. They eventually sorted it out.

Your 'gut reaction' to that strikes me as rational.

[Frozenstep]

Um, shouldn't they be worried about Xykon scrying for them?

Don't worry, the scrying allows a save, so as long as the order can...pass a will save...yeah ok, that might be a problem. Still, it's something I'd expect Serini would think about, so perhaps the backstage is warded against that kind of thing.


In all honestly, when talking about word count per page, I feel like OOTS has the highest counts of any comic I can remember reading that doesn't get into the trap of 'show, don't tell'.

Okay, funny question, what's the webcomic you can remember reading with the lowest word count per page that does fall into 'show, don't tell'? :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

In three months, it'll be an LP. :smallsmile:
(Explanation for Young People: Back in the day, sound recordings were... ah, never mind, get off my lawn.)
IIRC, we were an LP about a month ago, since the speed was 33 1/3, right? :smallsmile:

PS: Nice joke, I giggled.

[Yxylu]

In all honestly, when talking about word count per page, I feel like OOTS has the highest counts of any comic I can remember reading that doesn't get into the trap of 'show, don't tell'.


Book 7 is currently running at 281.48 words per page. This puts it in third place by source, behind the Gygax Magazine comics (288.17) and Don’t Split the Party (305.52).

I don’t have numbers for any other non-OotS comics, but I’m guessing you’re right that it’s among the highest.

[tomaO2]

Okay, funny question, what's the webcomic you can remember reading with the lowest word count per page that does fall into 'show, don't tell'? :smalltongue:


I meant in terms that I never hear 'show, don't tell' used as a criticism, despite there being a lot of talking. You do a lot of reading in OOTS, even if the most action packed sections, but I've never felt that the reading was dull, or that it would be better off to not have the text. I never feel like I'm getting a boring info dump that would have been better off doing a flashback.

I think the reason for that is because the art is very simple, so you can fit in a lot more than you would be able to otherwise. The panels per page is WAY higher than most comics can fit in, making each page much more dense and sastisfying to read than is normally the case.

[Lord Torath]

I just gotta say I love the perspective in Panel 7. Awesome job, Rich!

[Seward]

No joke, my current job is like this. You're only in a meeting if the meeting is important and your input/awareness is directly required. Meetings are efficient and we're done on time. I don't know how they're doing it - my current guess is witchcraft. It's freaking eerie.

Sign of a good manager or team leader.

Honestly managers that are actually good can make a job so much better. It just seems like they're rare, as many folks get put in that role without training and/or aptitude for the task (or their "aptitude" is to be popular with higher ranking people not to be good at managing their own people)

[bunsen_h]

IIRC, we were an LP about a month ago, since the speed was 33 1/3, right? :smallsmile:

PS: Nice joke, I giggled.

Er, yes. My math skills are really crappy lately.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honestly managers that are actually good can make a job so much better.
FWIW: I got plenty of training, but I certainly had to develop the aptitude over time in a learn by doing deal, which of course means I made some errors. Yes, I can learn, but I wish I'd have learned more quickly.

Some people I know adapted much more quickly than I did, so the aptitude is a thing.

[Fyraltari]

Um, shouldn't they be worried about Xykon scrying for them?

Wann bet the magic stone also stops divination spells?

Ever read the book "I'm OK, You're OK" {Harris} about transactional analysis?
There was a part in that about the roles people assume in a conversation and various attempts to frame their positions as adult -> child or parent -> child ... which is what Haley is doing.
The author (Harris) does not illustrate that as healthy relationship.

Granted, Rich uses exaggeration for attempted comic effect with great frequency, and poking at tropes/patterns like that also.

While I am not sure if that book was the origin of The Parent, Adult, Child (P-A-C) model, it's the first place I remember seeing it).

My daughter tried to pull that crap on my wife last year (P-C interaction) and caused some interpersonal trauma. They eventually sorted it out.

Your 'gut reaction' to that strikes me as rational.

Hey I did a test a few days ago to see what behaviour I had expressed the most. I had even scores of 5/6 out of ten across the board. Not sure what that says about me.

[SavageWombat]

Does the button trick really work? I wish I'd known that when my kids were little.

Come to think of it, it might have been good for me when I was little.

[Kantaki]

Does the button trick really work? I wish I'd known that when my kids were little.

Come to think of it, it might have been good for me when I was little.

Don't ask me, my grandma didn't need a jar of buttons to keep me occupied. She had books.:smallamused:

[Ninja Dragon]

Bard, you go use your CHA and make friends! Everyone else, we use our INT stats.

[Ionathus]

I don't see Haley as disrespectful, nor an unhealthy dynamic necessarily. Elan is childish in intellectual matters, with intelligence being his dump stat. His growth story arc focused on learning how to manage his emotions, gaining wisdom and behaving as an adult in his family and couple relationships. That's a good basis for a healthy relationship, if that means she has to handle matters that require brain power.

(side note: the "disrespectful" comment at the end was in reference to a separate topic from Korvin. I don't see Haley as being disrespectful to Elan.)

Yeah, I really appreciated Elan's character growth -- both in his Dashing Swordsman arc and then in BRitF as well. He's come a very long way and has really developed a much stronger sense of agency, which is important if you're going to A) set out to save the world and B) do a romantic relationship with someone.


Yeah, it's a fine line. I'm okay with "You can go play with Sunny"; if I were given the choice between attending a strategy meeting and having an "unstructured alliance-strengthening excercise" with a child, I'd be fine with someone who knew what my choice would be characterising it that way. "No roughhousing", however, is the point where I think "Okay, mom."


Ever read the book "I'm OK, You're OK" {Harris} about transactional analysis?
There was a part in that about the roles people assume in a conversation and various attempts to frame their positions as adult -> child or parent -> child ... which is what Haley is doing.
The author (Harris) does not illustrate that as healthy relationship.

Granted, Rich uses exaggeration for attempted comic effect with great frequency, and poking at tropes/patterns like that also.
...
Your 'gut reaction' to that strikes me as rational.

Yeah, part of it is definitely that exaggeration is a cornerstone of humor, so pushing Elan's scatterbrained outlook further for laughs is understandable. Usually it's fun (the way he and Sunny feed off of each other is a delight), but I think the dialogue between him and Haley gets dissonant sometimes with the rest of the character growth around them. Much like Belkar, it feels like Elan's had to evolve multiple times over the course of this comic strip to not get left behind by things getting more serious and complex, and mining his immaturity for humor (especially in the context of a romantic relationship) can feel hit or miss for me as a result.

Although the only part that really feels icky for me is the convention of "Mom Girlfriend" -- a girlfriend who has to act maternal because her partner is incapable of taking care of himself. It's not that it's a problem in OotS, because Haley & Elan have a complex relationship based on trust and respect and we've spent a ton of time exploring them and their relationship. They support each other and help each other and in general, I really like them as a couple -- they're high up on my list of functional fictional couples. However, if the joke gets too "parent-child", it can start to remind me of less-skilled stories that treat the girlfriend like this constantly and with no other redeeming qualities to the relationship. Kinda makes you think the authors of those other stories simply don't know how girls actually function outside of the role of "mom."

[Ruck]

I meant in terms that I never hear 'show, don't tell' used as a criticism, despite there being a lot of talking.

"Show, don't tell" is often misunderstood advice; it really has more to do with how the author portrays the characters. As a storyteller, you don't want to communicate who your characters are by your narrator's description of them or by how other characters describe them; you want to show who they are through their own words and actions. In which case, having the characters talk a lot can still be fine.

[0z79]

I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, so: Sunny is reminding me very much of an autistic kid. Speaking as someone on the spectrum, there's something about them that was slightly stronger than my sheer TERROR at the sight of a beholder; and now, I think I know what it is.

I RELATE to the big orange spaz.

[Edward15]

Oh, boy, just thought of something: Suppose that Elan inducts Sunny into the Church of Banjo?

[NobleCuriosity]

Oh, boy, just thought of something: Suppose that Elan inducts Sunny into the Church of Banjo?

First time I’ve laughed at one of these forum comments in a while!

[Peelee]

Don't ask me, my grandma didn't need a jar of buttons to keep me occupied. She had books.:smallamused:

[looks at location tag]

Donald Duck, I'm guessing?

[silversaraph]

Oh man, I loved this one.

[KorvinStarmast]

Although the only part that really feels icky for me is the convention of "Mom Girlfriend" -- a girlfriend who has to act maternal because her partner is incapable of taking care of himself. It's a part of why I detested Elan, the character, from about strips 1 through 10 to the present day.
I know that Rich uses him for comic relief, and sometimes to great effect, but as a character he's not just an example of bad TV sitcom writing ... I'll stop there.

Oh, boy, just thought of something: Suppose that Elan inducts Sunny into the Church of Banjo? This is why we can't have nice things.

[Peelee]

I'll have been married (once) for 33 1/2 years one month from today.

I said I understood the high divorce rate not the 100% divorce rate.

[F.Harr]

Nannas are gon'a nanna.

Well, you have to get the . . . juvinile crowd out of the way.

[DaOldeWolf]

After watching this, I am surprised. Do people actually do the button thing? I have never heard of such thing before. Does that actually work? Why do people do that? Is it something specific to a country? :smallconfused:

So many questions about such an irrelevant point but I would really love to get some answers.

[The Shadow]

After watching this, I am surprised. Do people actually do the button thing? I have never heard of such thing before. Does that actually work? Why do people do that? Is it something specific to a country? :smallconfused:

I don't know if it's specific to a country (I'm American), but I can testify that a jar of assorted buttons can keep a kid of a certain age occupied for a good long time. With me, it wasn't so much sorting them as just fascination with how many different kinds there were.

[Onyavar]

I'm calling it now:

we will follow Elan's sidequest with Sunny, and return with the whole planning plan to plan unrevealed to the audience, making Elan VERY PROUD of them.

Edit: We had TWO jars with in total roughly 2250 pennies, a quarter of these pennies minted in 1950.
I could provide many more details about them, but might bore you.

[danielxcutter]

After watching this, I am surprised. Do people actually do the button thing? I have never heard of such thing before. Does that actually work? Why do people do that? Is it something specific to a country? :smallconfused:

So many questions about such an irrelevant point but I would really love to get some answers.

It's possible that Minrah's point was about "adult giving kids random things to do so they stay out of the way" in general.

[Yirggzmb]

It's possible that Minrah's point was about "adult giving kids random things to do so they stay out of the way" in general.


Yeah, I'd say that, in general, it's handy to have small activities around to distract kids on occasion. Something that's somewhat helpful or at least can be billed as helpful (kids like to be helpful), simple to do and maybe time consuming, but not that big a deal if they do a poor job or get distracted halfway through.

So that might be sorting buttons/coins
Or pairing very similar socks
Or any number of things

[hroþila]

Jigsaw puzzles are just a more refined application of the exact same principle after all.

[phobiandarkmoon]

I know I'm being a pedant, but for the benefit of when this eventually goes to print:
In the last panel Haley spells exercise as "excercise"

[Jacky720]

Also look at the arrangement of the cast in the first panel: grouped by size (humans, halflings, dwarves), color (green for the halflings, grey for the dwarves, and the analogy doesn't really work for Haley and Elan), and number (distinct groups of two all around). Roy also groups himself with the paladins later, making a blue group.

Least, that's what I'm seeing.

:xykon:: Ha, I called you all holes.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, so: Sunny is reminding me very much of an autistic kid. Speaking as someone on the spectrum, there's something about them that was slightly stronger than my sheer TERROR at the sight of a beholder; and now, I think I know what it is.

I RELATE to the big orange spaz.

What makes you say that? Sunny seems to pay attention to his surroundings, to go talk to other people and express his feelings by himself, and to understand even implied meanings, like when Elan got him to close his antimagic eye, and seems to be able to adapt easily to new situations. He seems to me like he's a child, but with no evident sign of autism. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert in the field, but I'd like to know more.

[dancrilis]

Haley sent Elan to get her bow - that seperates him from the group and leaves him to his own devices with Sunny while they are close to the entrance of the dungeon where Xykon is hanging around and where they think they are safe to spy on him (and if Sunny doesn't keep his eye closed after getting them out of the room that that protection might not last), the more I think about it the more ways sending Elan and Sunny away could go wrong occur to me.

Likely not going to happen but could be a curious turn.

[Mic_128]

Haley sent Elan to get her bow - that seperates him from the group and leaves him to his own devices with Sunny while they are close to the entrance of the dungeon where Xykon is hanging around

Haley didn't lose her bow near the entrance, but in the cylindrical trap room a hallway away. I doubt they're gonna go out there. If anything the meeting will end and we'll turn and see them playing together, probably with Sunny having Banjo on an eye-stalk.

[Wraithfighter]

Haley sent Elan to get her bow - that seperates him from the group and leaves him to his own devices with Sunny while they are close to the entrance of the dungeon where Xykon is hanging around and where they think they are safe to spy on him (and if Sunny doesn't keep his eye closed after getting them out of the room that that protection might not last), the more I think about it the more ways sending Elan and Sunny away could go wrong occur to me.

Likely not going to happen but could be a curious turn.

I doubt it. Things have been very combat and conflict heavy for a while, and there's a lot of stuff to get into, between Team Evil, the IFCC, the heroes comparing notes on potentially dramatic things, and maybe some other stuff that we aren't thinking of. That just feels like a throw-away line to explain why Haley will have her bow in the next fight scene.

My guess? Next bit will be them talking about what O-chul knows about the Monster in the Darkness, followed by MITD showing up to find out what's going on with Team Evil's investigation into the weirdness with the doors...

[dancrilis]

Haley didn't lose her bow near the entrance, but in the cylindrical trap room a hallway away. I doubt they're gonna go out there. If anything the meeting will end and we'll turn and see them playing together, probably with Sunny having Banjo on an eye-stalk.

I am pretty sure that Elan didn't run that far other then out of the tunnel and into the cave - I get the impression (could be wrong) it was less far then from the cave to the living area.

[Ionathus]

It's a part of why I detested Elan, the character, from about strips 1 through 10 to the present day.
I know that Rich uses him for comic relief, and sometimes to great effect, but as a character he's not just an example of bad TV sitcom writing ... I'll stop there.

I see what you're saying but I do feel he's matured significantly, to the point where his ditziness is only occasionally blatant and even less occasionally annoying. Like I said, he's come a long way and has really come into his own in a lot of areas. The exaggerated "Elan is childlike" jokes can be hit or miss, but his role on the team does very much improve my reading experience.


After watching this, I am surprised. Do people actually do the button thing? I have never heard of such thing before. Does that actually work? Why do people do that? Is it something specific to a country? :smallconfused:

So many questions about such an irrelevant point but I would really love to get some answers.

I never got the button thing as a kid. I was given an entire rack of out-of-date spices once though, to keep me busy while my parents helped somebody move. They were those old orange Durkee tins -- I still can't think of anything else when I smell clove.

[pendell]

Never invite to a meeting someone who doesn't want to be there and whose input / disruption will not be needed.


Good heavens YES. I would go further: never create a meeting that could be an email. I've been working in Agile Scrum (https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum) for several years. It's a good methodology, done right, but all too often it devolves into Meeting after meeting after meeting (https://www.one80training.com/scrum-events-the-too-many-meeting-problem/). Pre-refinement. Refinement. Tech refinement (which is a different kind of refinement). Sprint planning. Sprint retrospective. Release planning. And because it's a two week cadence we go through the entire set of meetings every two weeks. In the article I just linked, meetings are supposed to take up 23% of sprint. In my perspective, it's closer to 30% but that's just the time spent in meeting . It doesn't account for context switching (https://www.loom.com/blog/cost-of-context-switching) which can cost 23 minutes for distraction. I'd say in an 8 hour day I accomplish about 4 hours of useful work. Which is why I frequently stay late.

I hate meetings. I wish I could avoid attending more of them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[kierthos]

I know that when it comes to the story vs rules/mechanics segregation, Mr. Burlew prefers to "err" in the side of the story.

That being said......

If Sunny is included in the attack on Team Evil, I think the only eye that would be of real use
would be the Anti-magic central eye. From a rules standpoint, the DCs on a Beholder's other eyes are
just too low to affect a high level cleric or lich most of the time. (Yes, Durkon got turned to stone, but
he's not as high level as Redcloak, who possibly gets bonuses to saves via the Redcloak, and well, anyone
can roll a 1.)

But Anti-magic field doesn't grant a check to ignore the effects. If you're in the cone, you can't cast spells,
and any magic items become normal items while they're in there. And, as it has already been pointed out,
a Lich in an Anti-magic field is a intelligent skeleton with a couple special abilities. (Redcloak at least has some
martial skill as a cleric.)

The problem is keeping them in the Anti-magic cone. The reason that it worked so well against the Order of
the Stick is that they had nowhere else in the cylindrical room to go.

In an open-ish chasm? Well, the Order would probably get a surprise round, assuming that Xykon didn't hear
them coming (+8 bonus to Listen checks).

But why fight Xykon right now at all?

Redcloak, the MitD, Oona, and Greyview are still inside one of the dungeons. If the Order hustles with their plan,
they could utilize the switchovers to isolate them, and in that tunnel, Sunny's Anti-magic cone would be
far more effective.

Subdue them (because killing Oona isn't likely to help with getting Redcloak to listen), and with that part of
Team Evil on ice (at the very least), then Xykon doesn't necessarily have any back-up. And since, presumably,
Xykon doesn't know about the phylactery switcheroo that Redcloak pulled, narratively, he's not invested in
"I must win this, or else I will be destroyed forever".

Also, I really do want Redcloak to still be around when Xykon is defeated, he "coalesces" in the phylactery,
only to realize "Hey, this isn't in my tomb-fortress on the Astral Plane."

[Ionathus]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword. I'm not sure if they have anything that can hurt him that's not magical.

This is all speculation: I don't know the details of how liches and AMFs interact.

[The MunchKING]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword

Actually, not true.


A lich's damage resistance is Su (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm). So in a AMF it will basically be just a big old stack of bones to be easily smashed.

[dancrilis]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword. I'm not sure if they have anything that can hurt him that's not magical.

This is all speculation: I don't know the details of how liches and AMFs interact.

Assuming standard then it may turn off his Fear Aura, Paralyzing Touch and potentially most importantly Damage Reduction - however it might not turn off his normal spellcasting (this is open to interpretation) and if it doesn't it would mean attacking him while he is in one is likely suicide and they really have no way of testing if it would work on him or not (unless Serini has some antimagic setup in the dungeons and has monitored if they work on him).
Even if it does turn off his normal spellcasting it would not turn off any spells which are designed to work in an antimagic field, and Epic spells which are not designed to specifically bypass an antimagic field might still work (at worst Xykon would have a 50% chance of being able to cast one) - and for a high level caster developing some of them might be reasonable.

Unless Serini has been doing some trail and error on if the tactic is viable I think it would be incredibly risky.

[kierthos]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword. I'm not sure if they have anything that can hurt him that's not magical.

This is all speculation: I don't know the details of how liches and AMFs interact.

Right, so.... It depends.

In 3.5 D&D, liches have 15/Bludgeoning and Magic damage resistance. (Meaning that unless the weapon
is both bludgeoning and magic, subtract 15 points of damage from any weapon attack.)

They're also immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting spells.

IF those turn off in an anti-magic field, then the Order can go to town on him with their
weapons. If they don't, then.... yes, Xykon won't be able to do much to the Order, and vice-versa.

Although I suppose since Roy has already punched Xykon's head off of his spine (way back in strip #114),
Roy could just run into the Anti-magic field and rip Xykon's arms off. Leave the arms in the anti-magic field,
drop kick the rest of him out, and beat on him then. (There's not a whole lot of spells that don't have
Somatic components, although there are still some dangerous ones.)

[danielxcutter]

His DR turns off. The rest of the resistances don’t.

That being said unless he does have an epic blasting spell or something, there’s about one non-epic spell in the entire edition that works, and I don’t think he has the spells known for there to be room for it.

[Peelee]

His DR turns off. The rest of the resistances don’t.

His other resistances wouldn't really matter since in an AMF he wouldn't have lightning slung at him anyway, for example.

[Ionathus]

His other resistances wouldn't really matter since in an AMF he wouldn't have lightning slung at him anyway, for example.

Hear me out...we build a lightning rod harpoon, designed to look like a tree...

[Seward]

Don't ask me, my grandma didn't need a jar of buttons to keep me occupied. She had books.:smallamused:

Yeah. I spent one summer reading Perry Mason when nothing else was going on with my Paternal grandma. She had the entire series.

My other grandmother had a piano in the basement (long story) that we'd bang on, and my uncle came late and was only a decade older, so a lot of his stuff was in the basement - games, even a model railroad although that was a "with supervision" thing. She had books too but she lived in the same city with us, so visits were more an "afternoon thing" not "read a book series when not outside" thing.


Right, so.... It depends.

In 3.5 D&D, liches have 15/Bludgeoning and Magic damage resistance. (Meaning that unless the weapon
is both bludgeoning and magic, subtract 15 points of damage from any weapon attack.)


While Belkar and Haley can't do much, Roy is a 15th level fighter with power attack, decent strength even without his belt and a greatsword. 15 DR won't stop him from tearing giant chunks out of the big X with no spells to protect him. Everybody else who is useless can just pile on to prevent Xykon from leaving the AMF.

DMG Eratta says that DR/Bludgeon is EX but DR/Magic is SU, so Minra and Durkon can also join Roy to do asskicking. All that assumes Xykon has no friends around. MITD getting involved would be very bad based how hard his "lightest hit" affected Miko and her horse. Even without that, the new bugbear and her animals could do bad things to a very squishy nonmagical elf who would be at the center of that antimagic field. Antimagic field isn't 100% against epic spells either, so Xykon might be able to do something awful anyway. Might be best if Roy grapples him while the two Thor clerics do the beatdown, and everybody else tries to keep V alive vs minion counterattacks.

[Kantaki]

[looks at location tag]

Donald Duck, I'm guessing?

Wrong part of Germany.:smalltongue:
Well, technically. I'm young enough to have grown up with them, but not something my grandparents had lying around.

Nah, fairy tales and folk tales/myths. Stuff like that.
Old Science Fiction stories too.
I think there were some Agatha Christie novels?

[Windscion]

Antimagic field isn't 100% against epic spells either.
This. Anyone recall what his epic spells are? I can only recall cloister, which has no combat use.

[dancrilis]

This. Anyone recall what his epic spells are? I can only recall cloister, which has no combat use.

Superb Dispelling (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) and possibly Epic Mage Armour (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), I wouldn't rule out others also.

[VanFanel]

I rarely comment here, but the button jar triggered the "Proustian madeleine" effect and dragged me to the forum!


I don't know if it's specific to a country (I'm American), but I can testify that a jar of assorted buttons can keep a kid of a certain age occupied for a good long time. With me, it wasn't so much sorting them as just fascination with how many different kinds there were.

I too don't know it's something country-specific, but to add my testimony to the pool, I'm Italian and I was a child in the 80s. I remember spending time playing with grandma's buttons, but I don't remember if she used to ask us kids to sort them ... I suspect it wasn't necessary ;)
I agree with The Shadow, and in fact, I'd like to add "by material, shape, thickness, etc" to the strip title. I was amazed by those velvet buttons, nacre buttons, and many more strange buttons I sadly can't remember.
(Curiously, my kids never played with buttons, but probably today we have more safety concerns... Anyway, my son often pulls out and "reviews/sorts" his soccer trading cards or Euro coins, and he is now far, far beyond the "button age"...)

[Arkain]

I'm afraid that's what your Nana was doing, Minrah :smallbiggrin:

[Reboot]

Even without that, the new bugbear and her animals could do bad things to a very squishy nonmagical elf who would be at the center of that antimagic field.
Uh, why would V be anywhere near SUNNY's AMF?

[Seward]

Uh, why would V be anywhere near SUNNY's AMF?

Sorry. I was imagining the usual situation with wizards casting antimagic field. Forgot they had a friendly beholder for a minute. Although honestly, Sunny isn't the most reliable source of AMF in the world, so you'd want to be quick about your Xykon smashing.

[Ezekiel]

I remember the buttons (80s) but what I remember most was my grandma saying "You're bored? Go pull weeds in the garden!"

[Edward15]

First time I’ve laughed at one of these forum comments in a while!
Thank you.:biggrin:


This is why we can't have nice things.
What do you mean by that? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[KorvinStarmast]

I hate meetings. I wish I could avoid attending more of them.
Some years ago a talented comedian named John Cleese (Yeah, the Python guy) made some teaching films (Meetings Bloody Meetings, and IIRC "More Bloody Meetings") that ought to be required for anyone in charge of anything. Still relevant, but I'd love to see him do one on "Bloody Zoom Meetings" or something like that.


What do you mean by that? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
It's a joke based on an old saying. I currently haven't got it in me to dissect that frog.

[DaOldeWolf]

First, I wanted to thank everyone that answered about the button thingie. I really appreciate the feedback, anecdotes and data. Its always great to learn new things. :smallbiggrin: For the sake of keeping this post from being too big, I will remove the text from the quotes.


Text

Cool! But I am surprised that this is really a thing that happens. Thanks for sharing your experience. I am also even more amazed by the fact that it worked.


Text
Wow! That so many. Were you also put to organize them?


Text
Yeah. I suppose. Since I was the young weird kid that stays put, I didnt usually receive stuff to distract myself. I usually stayed in place without issue. (many of my family members always used to say they wanted a child like me.)


Text

Well, in my home we all did chores but I am not sure if they are the same thing as small distractions. Still, its pretty interesting to hear about all this.


Text

I love those. All sorts of games are great for children. Chess, checkers, stairs and snakes, etc. I suppose some kind of task involving concentration is not only a good distraction but an ecellent way to help children develop mental skills.


Text

Spices? As in the cooking variety? Woah, that sounds absolutely amazing. Such a cool experience, let me tell you.


Text

So, it definitely isnt a cultural thing? Fascinating. I suppose parents learn all sorts of tricks from their families. And sometime from others´experiences. Collectibles? Yeah, that is certainly a good option for organization.


I remember the buttons (80s) but what I remember most was my grandma saying "You're bored? Go pull weeds in the garden!"
:smallbiggrin:
That story really made me laugh. Go pull weeds.

[TheNecrocomicon]

My only real thought upon reading this strip is "this is going way too smoothly right now, undoubtedly there's some sort of stuff hitting the fan right around the corner".

From a drama perspective, it seems to be completely forbidden to have a situation where the protagonists (i.e. the Order plus allies) have any sort of concrete advantage that is anything other than momentary and fleeting. Things just get bad and then worse in mounting fashion until the resolution. Therefore, it seems virtually impossible to me that whatever plan they concoct is ever going to be executed. They might not even get through the meeting before something upends the whole proverbial table.

[danielxcutter]

I think there should be at least enough time for Serini to tell them about the details of the Scribblers breaking up before that.

[AstralFire]

I've had this back-and-forth feeling about Haley & Elan's dynamic before: it's fun to have a fictional relationship where the guy is the complete ditz but still romantic, empathetic, and competent (in his own ways). However, some of the jokes of Haley managing Elan's behavior do read as very maternal, especially that exchange when he'd been lured away by Sunny which verged on feeling almost icky for me. I think their dynamic is at its strongest in scenes like bartering in Sandsedge, where they're both acting like adults but Elan simply has much lower savvy.

I love Elan and I love Haley, they're two of my favorite characters, yet I can never really get behind the relationship. I know it's exaggerated for humor purposes but... like, what does Haley get from the dynamic? Elan is the sweetest person in the world but I've never seen a romantic relationship that could be powered by sweetness alone. He's not really amusing to her as i recall, she doesn't find him hilarious. He can't provide meaningful emotional support beyond like... hugs. He can't be depended on to do most tasks. And Haley isn't the controlling type as far as we've seen otherwise that gets fulfillment in being in charge of people; to the contrary, she hates it and only has stepped up as necessary.

All of our characters have matured over time, but Elan... even after Tarquin, he's not child-like, and able to put that away as necessary; he's basically just a child, one with moments of insight. His arc would be entirely appropriate for a child in a story and i wouldn't blink if you snapped your fingers and made him a kid and Haley his guardian; I don't think it would meaningfully change the story overall. Her speech impediment is the only individual story point that would have to change, but in light of their general chemistry, i already feel like that is out of place.

[Fyraltari]

I love Elan and I love Haley, they're two of my favorite characters, yet I can never really get behind the relationship. I know it's exaggerated for humor purposes but... like, what does Haley get from the dynamic?

Elan is someone she can be completely honest with. She's been hiding from everyone in her life, but with him she feels confortable being her authentic self. Also, his trusting and hopeful nature helps her rein in the cynicism her father ingrained in her.

[AstralFire]

Elan is someone she can be completely honest with. She's been hiding from everyone in her life, but with him she feels confortable being her authentic self. Also, his trusting and hopeful nature helps her rein in the cynicism her father ingrained in her.

Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

I have seen goodness alone be the foundation of romantic relationships in real life between individuals with much less maturity and intellectual deficit between them. It has never ended well unless one partner changed in a way to alter the chemistry between them, in my recollection.

Please understand that I'm not trying to sell the value of being kind and considerate and optimistic short. These are most of the things that endear Elan to me as well. But a long-term monamorous relationship typically demands many points of compatibility to last, certainly many more than a one-sided affection for a character in a narrative.

Again, I do know this is exaggerated for comedic effect. But i wish we got to see them acting more like equals or Haley actually enjoying elements of his personality beyond "he is a good person" on a more regular basis.

[Fyraltari]

Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

They both like board games? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)

[Liquor Box]

I love Elan and I love Haley, they're two of my favorite characters, yet I can never really get behind the relationship. I know it's exaggerated for humor purposes but... like, what does Haley get from the dynamic?

The comic has given a pretty clear indication of what she sees in him - that he's hot. She went all grabby hands on him early for that reason. She 'gets' having a sweet piece of eye candy on her arm as she adventures around.

I get that you are probably looking for something deeper, but if you can't think of anything, then hotness is probably it. Lots of relationships are founded on it - often with gender roles reversed, but not always.

[Vikenlugaid]

The comic has given a pretty clear indication of what she sees in him - that he's hot. She went all grabby hands on him early for that reason. She 'gets' having a sweet piece of eye candy on her arm as she adventures around.

I get that you are probably looking for something deeper, but if you can't think of anything, then hotness is probably it. Lots of relationships are founded on it - often with gender roles reversed, but not always.

Elan is hot, is a good man (the most good in the comic maybe), is brave, is smarter than he often looks.

And anyway love is not rational.

[Fyraltari]

Elan is [...] a good man (the most good in the comic maybe)

I disagree on the grounds that O-Chul is in the comic.

[Vikenlugaid]

I disagree on the grounds that O-Chul is in the comic.
Well I did say "maybe".

[AstralFire]

The comic has given a pretty clear indication of what she sees in him - that he's hot. She went all grabby hands on him early for that reason. She 'gets' having a sweet piece of eye candy on her arm as she adventures around.

I get that you are probably looking for something deeper, but if you can't think of anything, then hotness is probably it. Lots of relationships are founded on it - often with gender roles reversed, but not always.

Not the sense of "founded" i meant. Hotness is a perfectly reasonable start, but we don't see her constantly objectifying him anymore (maybe, comic time vs real life time may be a factor here – i haven't had time to do a big reread in years) and i feel like the takeaway was supposed to be that the relationship has emotionally shifted. It just feels like it shifted chiefly into being mom and child rather than likely to marry.

[TheNecrocomicon]

They both like board games? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)

"'And as I recall, I think, we both kinda liked it'
And I said, 'Well, that's one thing we've got'"

[Ionathus]

My only real thought upon reading this strip is "this is going way too smoothly right now, undoubtedly there's some sort of stuff hitting the fan right around the corner".

From a drama perspective, it seems to be completely forbidden to have a situation where the protagonists (i.e. the Order plus allies) have any sort of concrete advantage that is anything other than momentary and fleeting. Things just get bad and then worse in mounting fashion until the resolution. Therefore, it seems virtually impossible to me that whatever plan they concoct is ever going to be executed. They might not even get through the meeting before something upends the whole proverbial table.

Hmm, I don't feel like we're going to have anything terrible happen in the next few strips at least. We just had a long battle that drained our heroes (with somebody who should have been their ally from the start!), it would feel frustrating to have another big setback so soon in the book. Too many in a row and it starts to feel like the escape from Girard's Pyramid (Team Evil, then the devils, then Tarquin's army, then Tarquin himself, then Tarquin on airship). That's good for book finales, but not so much when you're just setting things up. I expect some very talky bits to come next.


Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

Again, I do know this is exaggerated for comedic effect. But i wish we got to see them acting more like equals or Haley actually enjoying elements of his personality beyond "he is a good person" on a more regular basis.

I think this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1187.html) is a good example of other ways Elan can impress Haley. He really is a skilled and savvy people person when he needs to be! His trick with Sunny (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1240.html) also impressed her.

I still see it as "solid relationship, with some iffy jokes." But I can see how you feel the reverse - the exaggeration is pretty significant, especially as the tone of the rest of the comic has matured around it.

[AstralFire]

I think this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1187.html) is a good example of other ways Elan can impress Haley. He really is a skilled and savvy people person when he needs to be! His trick with Sunny (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1240.html) also impressed her.

I still see it as "solid relationship, with some iffy jokes." But I can see how you feel the reverse - the exaggeration is pretty significant, especially as the tone of the rest of the comic has matured around it.

Yeah that was a great scene on the Mechane[sp?]. Thanks for reminding me of it.

But most I appreciate the POV validation. I can see why other people read it a bit more natural than i do but it's nice to know I'm not in left field here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan is hot, is a good man (the most good in the comic maybe), is brave Yes. And one other thing: he comes off as honest (even naively so). That makes him quite different from pretty much everyone Haley grew up with.
And anyway love is not rational. Also true.

I appreciate the position AstralFire presents.

I think Rich was trying to do a little of the 'reverse bimbo' appeal at first, sort of a trope inversion, and then as his writing style went from gag strips to "I'm telling a story" he has tried to make it more than that.

A couple of other thoughts:
Haley was shown to be very possessive of Elan during the forest / bandits bit even though they weren't even dating at that point.

Elan's attractiveness to ladies, in general, is affirmed by the Sorceress in that bandit arc, and at least by one lady in Azure City who invited him up to her room (New Years Eve?)...but of course Miko was immune to the influence of his good looks.

[CountDVB]

The sheer amount of people overanalyzing the joke of Elan and Haley makes me wonder if ya'll have forgotten what Thor said about this world being "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody."

Like, I wonder how many laughs Mr. Burlew gets out of us overanalyzing every innocuous little thing so much that even paranoid adventurers overexposed to mimics think we're being silly.

I think it is more Elan felt like he was not sure on if he could contribute anything meaningful and sparing some sense awkwardness here. He's flighty and impulsive sure, but he's been able to contribute alot to help out. While yes he and Sunny are out and not involved in there, I do reckon something may happen.

For all we know, they could run into the Monster in the Darkness uncloaked or one of his kind and we wouldn't realize it until later.

[Ionathus]

The sheer amount of people overanalyzing the joke of Elan and Haley makes me wonder if ya'll have forgotten what Thor said about this world being "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody."

Like, I wonder how many laughs Mr. Burlew gets out of us overanalyzing every innocuous little thing so much that even paranoid adventurers overexposed to mimics think we're being silly.

I think it is more Elan felt like he was not sure on if he could contribute anything meaningful and sparing some sense awkwardness here. He's flighty and impulsive sure, but he's been able to contribute alot to help out. While yes he and Sunny are out and not involved in there, I do reckon something may happen.

For all we know, they could run into the Monster in the Darkness uncloaked or one of his kind and we wouldn't realize it until later.

On the surface level, sure, it was a joke and I took it as such. On its own it means barely anything.

But there are other jokes like this in the comic, and the fact that there's a pattern establishing "Elan is so comically immature that his girlfriend manages his behavior in a pseudo-mothering way" is worth talking about, for both in-comic and real-world cultural reasons.

Think about the Bechdel Test1: absolutely meaningless for judging a single movie, but if it keeps happening then there might be a discussion worth having.

1. Yes, I'm aware the Bechdel Test was both A) not designed as an actual test and B) originated as a punchline in a comic strip. It is not an in-depth analysis tool, it's just someone pointing something out. Which is my original point: "pointing something out" is not the same as "overanalyzing," which is funny because the Bechdel Test also gets discredited for "reading too much into it" despite making a solid observation.

[arimareiji]

On the surface level, sure, it was a joke and I took it as such. On its own it means barely anything.

But there are other jokes like this in the comic, and the fact that there's a pattern establishing "Elan is so comically immature that his girlfriend manages his behavior in a pseudo-mothering way" is worth talking about, for both in-comic and real-world cultural reasons.

Think about the Bechdel Test1: absolutely meaningless for judging a single movie, but if it keeps happening then there might be a discussion worth having.

1. Yes, I'm aware the Bechdel Test was both A) not designed as an actual test and B) originated as a punchline in a comic strip. It is not an in-depth analysis tool, it's just someone pointing something out. Which is my original point: "pointing something out" is not the same as "overanalyzing," which is funny because the Bechdel Test also gets discredited for "reading too much into it" despite making a solid observation.

Thank you for being the spur I needed to finally look up the Bechdel Test I've recently heard people refer to a few times. Possibly amusingly, I heard the reason you pre-emptively (and aptly) defended the reference before I even knew what it was. (I.e. people dismissing any mention of the point it raises with "Ha ha it's not an actual test".)

My weird take: Elan and Haley are what they are. Personally I find any relationship where one lover pseudo-parents the other and appears to view them as little more than "makes me feel good to be around them" and "great sex toy" to be a very-uncomfortable turnoff, regardless of whether it's the traditional stereotype or an inversion. But some people don't perceive any harm in it, and probably won't unless their perceptions change from the inside, and so be it.

(I went through way too many phases that now squick me out to remember, to judge anyone else's tastes. We all develop our characters and the plot threads of our lives at our own pace.)

[CountDVB]

On the surface level, sure, it was a joke and I took it as such. On its own it means barely anything.

But there are other jokes like this in the comic, and the fact that there's a pattern establishing "Elan is so comically immature that his girlfriend manages his behavior in a pseudo-mothering way" is worth talking about, for both in-comic and real-world cultural reasons.

Think about the Bechdel Test1: absolutely meaningless for judging a single movie, but if it keeps happening then there might be a discussion worth having.

1. Yes, I'm aware the Bechdel Test was both A) not designed as an actual test and B) originated as a punchline in a comic strip. It is not an in-depth analysis tool, it's just someone pointing something out. Which is my original point: "pointing something out" is not the same as "overanalyzing," which is funny because the Bechdel Test also gets discredited for "reading too much into it" despite making a solid observation.

Except that it also depends on what the series. If it's a parody like this and the story does have a large reputation of not taking itself that seriously, then maybe that is something to keep in mind. We can find patterns sure, but those patterns have to be analyzed in the greater whole and context.

It's like trying to apply realism to a Looney Tunes cartoon. Sure we can do so all we like and get something, but it is still a Looney Tunes cartoon, which was created under a fundemental set of rules and with expectations all from it.

[CountDVB]

Thank you for being the spur I needed to finally look up the Bechdel Test I've recently heard people refer to a few times. Possibly amusingly, I heard the reason you pre-emptively (and aptly) defended the reference before I even knew what it was. (I.e. people dismissing any mention of the point it raises with "Ha ha it's not an actual test".)

My weird take: Elan and Haley are what they are. Personally I find any relationship where one lover pseudo-parents the other and appears to view them as little more than "makes me feel good to be around them" and "great sex toy" to be a very-uncomfortable turnoff, regardless of whether it's the traditional stereotype or an inversion. But some people don't perceive any harm in it, and probably won't unless their perceptions change from the inside, and so be it.

(I went through way too many phases that now squick me out to remember, to judge anyone else's tastes. We all develop our characters and the plot threads of our lives at our own pace.)

I think it's more people are reading too much into it and applying their own views, and expectations on it while forgetting the axioms of the comic.

Elan may be silly, but he has matured and grown alot in the past... what like year or so? While I do recall Mr. Burlew's perspective on applicability and fiction, but I don't think it would apply entirely ehre since it's clearly for the sake of humor.

These characters are still themselves in a story where comedy is a prominent pillar, especially comedy that is parodical.

[Fyraltari]

Except that it also depends on what the series. If it's a parody like this and the story does have a large reputation of not taking itself that seriously, then maybe that is something to keep in mind. We can find patterns sure, but those patterns have to be analyzed in the greater whole and context.

Yes, it's a parody of D&D, I didn't know that "men are children who need their partner's supervision to behave" was an element of D&D.

We are all aware that Elan's childishness is a joke, that's not the issue people are raising. The issue is thay this particular joke coforms to a particular stereotype/gender role repartition where the "wife" is more emotionnally mature than the "husband" and acts as a substitute "mother", taking responsability for his behaviour rather than an equal partner. This is, of course, insulting to everybody involved, men becaude they are presented as / incited to act as emotionnally stunted adult children and womene because they are presented as / incited to act as secondary to their male partners

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/life_as_we_know_it.jpg

Obviously, we all know this isn't what The Giant us trying to portray with this relationship and 95% of the time it isn't what he portrays. But in this specific instance, several of us think the joke veeree into this territory. I can't talk for anybody else, but to me, it's specifically the "no roughhousing!" line that makes it cross the line and I think the joke would have been better without it.
I'm not ceiticizing the joke in itself but it's execution, because it unwittingly ends up playing into a harmful stereotype.

[BaronOfHell]

My take on it is that in oots low intelligence is usually displayed as child like behavior (Elan, Thog, MitD, Therkla's mom), but the intelligence stat isn't an indicator of how well one does in a romantic relationship.

[Larsaan]

Except that it also depends on what the series. If it's a parody like this and the story does have a large reputation of not taking itself that seriously, then maybe that is something to keep in mind. We can find patterns sure, but those patterns have to be analyzed in the greater whole and context.

It's worth pointing out, though (and this is something that sprang to mind during that big argument in the previous thread), that this comic is a very different story now than it was ten years ago. It started as a wacky slappy parody, sure, but these days it's aiming to be something more straight-faced... to the point where we even had a page not too long ago that was specifically about the main characters criticizing their own behaviour at the start of the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1230.html). There are jokes from those early days that I found funny then, and that I still find funny on a re-read, but would seem jarringly out of place in the context of the comic's current atmosphere and sensibilities.

All that said, I don't actually mind Haley and Elan's relationship either way.

[CountDVB]

Yes, it's a parody of D&D, I didn't know that "men are children who need their partner's supervision to behave" was an element of D&D.

We are all aware that Elan's childishness is a joke, that's not the issue people are raising. The issue is thay this particular joke coforms to a particular stereotype/gender role repartition where the "wife" is more emotionnally mature than the "husband" and acts as a substitute "mother", taking responsability for his behaviour rather than an equal partner. This is, of course, insulting to everybody involved, men becaude they are presented as / incited to act as emotionnally stunted adult children and womene because they are presented as / incited to act as secondary to their male partners

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/life_as_we_know_it.jpg

Obviously, we all know this isn't what The Giant us trying to portray with this relationship and 95% of the time it isn't what he portrays. But in this specific instance, several of us think the joke veeree into this territory. I can't talk for anybody else, but to me, it's specifically the "no roughhousing!" line that makes it cross the line and I think the joke would have been better without it.
I'm not ceiticizing the joke in itself but it's execution, because it unwittingly ends up playing into a harmful stereotype.

Except that Elan's childish dynamic has always been part of the joke, such as the dinosaur rides as "kiddie rides" and other stuff in the past comic. His childish demeanor in comparison with everyone of the party for the most part is kinda known, so it's kinda odd now in this particular instance are people being concerned. Though I just find it more odd since Elan isn't really the violent sort (I do not know about Sunny)

[Vikenlugaid]

Yes, it's a parody of D&D, I didn't know that "men are children who need their partner's supervision to behave" was an element of D&D.

Except Oots is not a parody of just D&D. This comic has made fun of several "not D&D" tropes since the beginning.

[CountDVB]

It's worth pointing out, though (and this is something that sprang to mind during that big argument in the previous thread), that this comic is a very different story now than it was ten years ago. It started as a wacky slappy parody, sure, but these days it's aiming to be something more straight-faced... to the point where we even had a page not too long ago that was specifically about the main characters criticizing their own behaviour at the start of the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1230.html). There are jokes from those early days that I found funny then, and that I still find funny on a re-read, but would seem jarringly out of place in the context of the comic's current atmosphere and sensibilities.

All that said, I don't actually mind Haley and Elan's relationship either way.

Mind you, Thor describing the whole thing as parody was from late in the last arc. At the same time, the humor is still heavily present, it's just differently funny, but it still will subvert expectations and so on. None of us expected the mysterious ally would be a cheerful and childish beholder we only saw from the beginning of the comic as part of a joke and especially because of parody. Not to mention the self-referential behavior and so on.

So it's a lateral shift in humor, but I don't think the comic has become less funny or parody-based.

[Duiker]

Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

I have seen goodness alone be the foundation of romantic relationships in real life between individuals with much less maturity and intellectual deficit between them. It has never ended well unless one partner changed in a way to alter the chemistry between them, in my recollection.

Please understand that I'm not trying to sell the value of being kind and considerate and optimistic short. These are most of the things that endear Elan to me as well. But a long-term monamorous relationship typically demands many points of compatibility to last, certainly many more than a one-sided affection for a character in a narrative.

Again, I do know this is exaggerated for comedic effect. But i wish we got to see them acting more like equals or Haley actually enjoying elements of his personality beyond "he is a good person" on a more regular basis.

I mean, concepts like daily life and things like dating make less sense when they're both adventurers. They're not exactly fighting over who's doing the dishes. This relationship may not survive their retirement from adventuring into a life that requires such considerations, but they've already committed to pursuing another big adventure after this one anyways.

They have time to figure it out.

[AstralFire]

I like how i (the person most critical of the relationship by far here) put in something like "I am aware it is a parody" and "I get why it works for others" etc in literally every post i made on the subject and we still get people coming in to inform me that it is a parody and i am thinking too much about things and that essentially my reading is incorrect

The fact that i have tried to support my explanations for why it doesn't work for me in and of itself is taken as verification of thinking too much

I'm sorry i don't appreciate the story in exactly the same way you do i guess?

But for the record, no, i don't just sit there and think about this story. I probably know the story of OOTS less on average than many commenters. I don't remember how to spell the name of the airship. I don't reread a lot. This is just the genuine impression i have gained casually over many years but have never pondered long enough to voice until someone else mentioned a lesser degree of the same feeling.

i thought about it long enough to explain my thought process to other people and tried to do so in a way that did not make anyone feel invalidated for not holding my opinion.

Sometimes we just come into works with different assumptions that make different jokes work or not work so well for us. No one hardly sits there and just thinks themselves into a conundrum over something they enjoy for the sake of being agitated.

[dancrilis]

This seems to be ranging close to the territory of: Is Haley taking advantage of the mentally handicapped for her own sexual pleasure.

I reject that notion.

Haley is with Elan for clearly defined reasons namely panel 15 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html), Haley feels she is better wth him - why Elan is with her is also explained he cares about her and wishes to protect her (more then the rest of the party) at least (panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) (one could argue for 2 but I am including the top banner)).

That is not a bad basis for a relationship.

Seperate from the comic - Intelligence 3 is the lowest possible for an adventurer (so Elan meets it) and it is still adult intelligence - an intelligence 3 character can still be the best lawyer/linguist/enginneer/insert other job here around - profession is a wisdom skill intelligence has nothing to do with it.

[AstralFire]

I can't speak for anyone else, but i am not in any way arguing or even feeling that Haley is taking advantage of anyone. Or that Elan needs to be protected.

I just think the comedy is piled on high enough that it's not a believable relationship (for me!) because i feel like Haley would get bored quickly with the relationship as presented. Gender dynamics are much more relevant to me than mental disability here. Fyralti's and Ionathus' comments (among others) on some of the gender dynamics are well put and reflect my own thoughts. But lest someone bite too hard on that – while that is more relevant to my thoughts, my main thought has been and continues to be that it just seems like Haley would be bored in the long run.

I brought up intelligence as one of many factors because Haley is so often seen interacting with Elan in a condescending (if pleasant) manner rather than someone taking mutual joy in his free spirit (not that the latter never happens). That is why it is "coming up now" – generally Elan is condescended to by everyone, even Roy still, but the others aren't in a serious romantic relationship with him in conjunction with a prophecy that suggests it's going to be permanent while the story is in its final act.

I do appreciate that we are not at the very end of the story yet and both characters have expressed desire and shown ability to make changes to make things work, so we'll see how that all ends when Elan gets his happily ever after.

As an aside, i really would love it if this forum was slightly less unfriendly to writing long posts on the phone. I have to type many lines blind because the window does not adjust height for the on screen keyboard.

[Larsaan]

I guess one thing I'll say is that I think the Haley that originally fell in love with Elan felt more like an equal match for him. Sure, she was still smarter than him, but she could also be immature, had her own weird quirks like talking to her treasure, pinched stuff from other party members, and later turned out to be quite neurotic. We haven't seen that Haley in a very long while.

[AstralFire]

I guess one thing I'll say is that I think the Haley that originally fell in love with Elan felt more like an equal match for him. Sure, she was still smarter than him, but she could also be immature, had her own weird quirks like talking to her treasure, pinched stuff from other party members, and later turned out to be quite neurotic. We haven't seen that Haley in a very long while.

Yeah, I was thinking about this. And at the same time we watched Elan become more passive -- standing up to Tarquin by being more of a support and refusing to take lead on anything made for a more novel maturing/rebellion plot, but ultimately I feel like it made Elan's dynamic with Haley more lopsided. The return of Durkon (which, to be clear, I am very happy about) and Belkar and V's growth arcs has meant what I hoped for in terms of Elan stepping up in a more actively supportive role hasn't really manifested, either mechanically or emotionally. It is there, but the group is so coherent now that being the helper doesn't stand out like I expected. Which I suppose is ironically fitting. Mayhaps we'll get more opportunities for that with V knockouts from the council of... fiends? God, I can't remember what they're called.

[Thermophille]

For my two cents...

I think intelligence is overrated. I have above average intelligence; I can do most arithmetic in my head, and I'm a sophmore in college and I've never really had to study other than a quick review before exams. But I don't think my intelligence generally does a lot of good for me, especially in interpersonal relationships; in fact it's honestly done a bit of harm, since not having to work at school has left me lazier than most.

Elan may have a low intelligence, but that's not really the source of the problem, the source of the problem is his attitude. He's definitely gotten better, and I think Haley's influence will continue him moving in that direction. I don't think he'll ever stop being fun-loving, but I think I sense much greater maturity in his future.

I think it's definitely a hiccup in their relationship, and I could even see it being addressed at some point (though I don't think it's likely), but they're both motivated to overcome that barrier, and it's not anything insurmountable.

[DaOldeWolf]

I think intelligence is overrated.

Amen to that! Logic and analysis isnt everything. Raw logical intelligence can actually be detrimental in many situations. People sometimes lose the ability to act due to frankly how complicated this world can be (scared of making a mistake). Trying to get everything right and making sure they get all angles (until they go crazy when they lose control) can blind them from the bigger picture. Emotion and interests being put aside for logic´s sake can bring you misery.

As a real psychotherapist with a degree on family and couples, I will say an important lesson we were told in school. Its not about being the perfect couple. Its not about finding eternal happiness. Its not even about making a one fits all relationship (trying to make a recipe for all couples). Its about a relationship being satisfatory to the couple. Everything else is meaningless. As long as the relationship is working in a healthy manner (AKA a non toxic arrangement), it doesnt matter how their relationship is working because its working. If they like the deal they are in and how they resolve their issues isnt a problem then it really doesnt matter anything else. Because there is no issue to solve.

People like to create problems or imagine something is wrong when no one involved thinks it is (usually projecting themselves and their beliefs as the standards that everyone should follow). Until either Elan or Haley speak against the state of their current relationship, then there is nothing to address here. Its just a flimsy belief of what a relationship is and how it works. And yes, in some relationships, one can hold more power, one can be more responsible, one can be more childish as long as both parties agree to it. Like I said, toxic behavior is where a line shouldnt be crossed.

[Peelee]

For the sake of keeping this post from being too big, I will remove the text from the quotes.

You could also just put spoiler tags around the text so it's not too. If but still keeps context about what you're replying to without having to click the button to see the post being quoted.

[DaOldeWolf]

You could also just put spoiler tags around the text so it's not too. If but still keeps context about what you're replying to without having to click the button to see the post being quoted.

That is actually a good idea. Thanks for the advice.

[Liquor Box]

This seems to be ranging close to the territory of: Is Haley taking advantage of the mentally handicapped for her own sexual pleasure.

I don't think anyone else has come close to implying that.

I think the point is that some posters think Elan doesn't have the qualities that they think a girl like Hayley would be attracted to (common sense, independence, maturity, intelligence, self awareness etc), so this effects their enjoyment of the Elan/Hayler storyline. People have answered that by pointing aspects of Elan's character which they think would be attractive to Hayley (him being hot, him being goodly, him being trustworthy and kind).

Associated with this is some people dislike of the dynamic where Elan acts childlike and Hayley looks after him and gives/withholds him permission to do things. Some of suggested this is icky as reminiscent of a mother/child relationship, and others have suggested that it's simply not a healthy dynamic for parents. I don't think that implies she's taking advantage of him though.


I think intelligence is overrated.

Amen to that!
This is true and why I don't find their relationship at all unbelievable. Nerds don't get the girls, jocks do. Some girls may be more attracted to intelligence than looks, but not most i don't think. No problem believing that Hayley still gets off on having a super hot boyfriend.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yeah, I was thinking about this. And at the same time we watched Elan become more passive -- standing up to Tarquin by being more of a support and refusing to take lead on anything made for a more novel maturing/rebellion plot, but ultimately I feel like it made Elan's dynamic with Haley more lopsided. The return of Durkon (which, to be clear, I am very happy about) and Belkar and V's growth arcs has meant what I hoped for in terms of Elan stepping up in a more actively supportive role hasn't really manifested, either mechanically or emotionally. It is there, but the group is so coherent now that being the helper doesn't stand out like I expected. Which I suppose is ironically fitting. Mayhaps we'll get more opportunities for that with V knockouts from the council of... fiends? God, I can't remember what they're called.

Well, the last fight was won directly because of Elan, without Elan now they would be going south thinking they haven't found anything here.

[arimareiji]

(snip) My weird take: Elan and Haley are what they are. Personally I find any relationship where one lover pseudo-parents the other and appears to view them as little more than "makes me feel good to be around them" and "great sex toy" to be a very-uncomfortable turnoff, regardless of whether it's the traditional stereotype or an inversion. But some people don't perceive any harm in it, and probably won't unless their perceptions change from the inside, and so be it.

(I went through way too many phases that now squick me out to remember, to judge anyone else's tastes. We all develop our characters and the plot threads of our lives at our own pace.)


This seems to be ranging close to the territory of: Is Haley taking advantage of the mentally handicapped for her own sexual pleasure.


I don't think anyone else has come close to implying that.

I think the point is that some posters think Elan doesn't have the qualities that they think a girl like Hayley would be attracted to (common sense, independence, maturity, intelligence, self awareness etc), so this effects their enjoyment of the Elan/Hayler storyline. People have answered that by pointing aspects of Elan's character which they think would be attractive to Hayley (him being hot, him being goodly, him being trustworthy and kind).

Associated with this is some people dislike of the dynamic where Elan acts childlike and Hayley looks after him and gives/withholds him permission to do things. Some of suggested this is icky as reminiscent of a mother/child relationship, and others have suggested that it's simply not a healthy dynamic for parents. I don't think that implies she's taking advantage of him though.

I wonder if I provided fodder for dancrilis's perception, but that wasn't my intent and the interpretation would be pretty far off the mark if so. It just squicks me out to see a pseudo-parent lover who wouldn't be able to answer "What do you admire/respect about them?" with anything more concrete than "They make me feel happy, they're my inspiration, they make me a better person, etc".

I sometimes like to think that the Giant may be deliberately sending up the way this has been done to death with male pseudo-parents of attractive ditzy women, and it would certainly be a redeeming feature... but for me personally, it doesn't overcome the squick.

[Fyraltari]

This seems to be ranging close to the territory of: Is Haley taking advantage of the mentally handicapped for her own sexual pleasure
Where on Earth did you get that from?

from the council of... fiends? God, I can't remember what they're called.

The Board of Directors of the Inter Fiend Cooperation Commission (IFCC), but if you just call them the fiends, everyone will get it.


About it intelligence, I think it's a catch-all term that covers several unrelated skills (like memory, social skills, logic, ...) and as such there are no "intelligent people" except in specific contexts. Elan's speech linked upthread where he turned Roy's apathy into a vote an expression of confidence of the team was very intelligent in terms of social skill despite Elan supposedly being very dumb.

[Larsaan]

Where on Earth did you get that from?

You know, it's not a stance I agree with, but it did occur to me earlier that there are some arguments one could make to that effect. It's been noted before that Elan is so childlike that he practically is a child mentally, and the comic itself has implied that he has literal brain damage (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html). By comparison, Haley is probably the most mature member of the party by this point (almost boringly so, to be honest - I can't even remember the last time she was the butt of a joke). People have compared their dynamic to that of a parent and child, but you could also compare it to that of a disabled person and their caretaker.

So, depending on one's opinions on consent in regard to lopsided power dynamics, I can definitely see how someone might arrive at that conclusion.

[dancrilis]

Where on Earth did you get that from?


Note I said 'ranging close to the territory of'.

It is a number of different points taken together.


...he's basically just a child, one with moments of insight.



I think Rich was trying to do a little of the 'reverse bimbo' appeal at first, sort of a trope inversion, and then as his writing style went from gag strips to "I'm telling a story" he has tried to make it more than that.




"Elan is so comically immature that his girlfriend manages his behavior in a pseudo-mothering way"




Personally I find any relationship where one lover pseudo-parents the other and appears to view them as little more than "makes me feel good to be around them" and "great sex toy" to be a very-uncomfortable turnoff, regardless of whether it's the traditional stereotype or an inversion.

These are not all the relevant comments - merely a sample.

None of these people have said 'Is Haley taking advantage of the mentally handicapped for her own sexual pleasure' and my comment (or their inclusion in the above quotes) is not intended to claim that they did, but I think it fair to say that the overall discsussion could be seen to range somehwat close to that territory - but perhaps I am reading too much into it and subjecting individual comments to collected analysis and thereby not seeing the wood from the trees.

[AstralFire]

I think intelligence is overrated.


Amen to that! Logic and analysis isnt everything.

These are odd refrains.

No one, at any point, has said or even implied that a good relationship requires people of similar intelligence. And I've bent over backwards on multiple posts to make it clear that I don't believe that, either. Intelligence is salient here only insofar as the narrative keeps using Elan's intelligence/maturity/knowledge to make jokes about him. And these are funny jokes, but when Haley is the vehicle for them, it trades off some of the believability of the relationship.


People like to create problems or imagine something is wrong when no one involved thinks it is (usually projecting themselves and their beliefs as the standards that everyone should follow).

There are distinct differences between discussing the believability of fictional relationships and discussing the health of real relationships. When we are discussing real people, understanding that you do not have the whole picture and respecting the dignity of the people who are actually involved is paramount. When discussing fiction, all that exists is in the page; we can never have the whole picture here, either, but the author has the power to decide what parts of the picture are shown or not shown, and the reader's mind is needed to do the rest. That is why no author can ever hope to appeal to every reader.

I think it is an incredibly unfair leap to take comments which have overwhelmingly focused on the relationship having some believability or comfort issues to that individual and turn this into people meddling into a relationship as outsiders.


The Board of Directors of the Inter Fiend Cooperation Commission (IFCC), but if you just call them the fiends, everyone will get it.

Thank you! IFCC was actually stuck in my head but I was like "wait no, I think I'm confusing that with the FCC."

[Peelee]

For my two cents...

I think intelligence is overrated.
I don't think I can disagree with this strongly enough.

I have above average intelligence
So sayeth most people, interestingly enough.

I can do most arithmetic in my head, and I'm a sophmore in college and I've never really had to study other than a quick review before exams.
Those seem like fairly average claims, I've gotta say.

Thank you! IFCC was actually stuck in my head but I was like "wait no, I think I'm confusing that with the FCC."
There are certainly similarities. The IFCC won't let me be or let me be me so let me see...

[lio45]

… my main thought has been and continues to be that it just seems like Haley would be bored in the long run.Sure, but while Haley and Elan have been dating for ~10-15 years for us readers at this point, in the comic it’s only been… months?

I’m highly intelligent, and I’ve observed that my time frame for tiring of a relationship with a really hot but dumb girl is about 6 months to a year. I definitely couldn’t do 10+ years, but then, neither did Haley in in-comic time.

[DaOldeWolf]

Where on Earth did you get that from?


The Board of Directors of the Inter Fiend Cooperation Commission (IFCC), but if you just call them the fiends, everyone will get it.


About it intelligence, I think it's a catch-all term that covers several unrelated skills (like memory, social skills, logic, ...) and as such there are no "intelligent people" except in specific contexts. Elan's speech linked upthread where he turned Roy's apathy into a vote an expression of confidence of the team was very intelligent in terms of social skill despite Elan supposedly being very dumb.

Totally agree here. I will say that because logic is what "intelligence" is usually associated with, I used that specific meaning for my previous comment. And its the kind that gets glamorized the most (which is bad). If asked about what makes a truly intelligent person, its one that is capable of adapting the best (AKA one that has many possible answers to one issue).


These are odd refrains.


What odd refrain? :smallconfused: I liked his comment about the overvalue of cold logical thinking and wanted to share my thoughts on the matter. You might be reading too much into what I wrote.


No one, at any point, has said or even implied that a good relationship requires people of similar intelligence. And I've bent over backwards on multiple posts to make it clear that I don't believe that, either. Intelligence is salient here only insofar as the narrative keeps using Elan's intelligence/maturity/knowledge to make jokes about him. And these are funny jokes, but when Haley is the vehicle for them, it trades off some of the believability of the relationship.

When did I say anyone in specific has? :smallconfused: I saw a discussion about relationship and shared some insight on the matter. I dont even know why you think this was especifically addressed to you. I didnt mention you by name or quoted you anywhere. What I did say was that its for the most part meaningless to try to measure their relationships by any metrics because even on a profesional level, we are told that what matters in a successful relationship is that the couple is working and its developing without toxic behavior. And by how people act, people will put their own personal values on what makes a good healthy successful relationship (which might differ based on culture, gender, generation in which they born in, etc. alone).


There are distinct differences between discussing the believability of fictional relationships and discussing the health of real relationships. When we are discussing real people, understanding that you do not have the whole picture and respecting the dignity of the people who are actually involved is paramount. When discussing fiction, all that exists is in the page; we can never have the whole picture here, either, but the author has the power to decide what parts of the picture are shown or not shown, and the reader's mind is needed to do the rest. That is why no author can ever hope to appeal to every reader.

Not if the point is to talk about them in real couple terms. Afterall, if this wasnt the case, I dont think the answer to "Its fiction. You are reading too much into it." would have been as it is.


I think it is an incredibly unfair leap to take comments which have overwhelmingly focused on the relationship having some believability or comfort issues to that individual and turn this into people meddling into a relationship as outsiders.


But that is the thing, I never said anything against people being forbidden of feeling anything. They can. But like I said before, when its applied to a couple that has shown 0 signs issues in the comic, then what are people getting at if it isnt to criticize them based on their personal believes of what couples are?

I read all those comments about how the couple cannot work and I have to wonder why it cant. All I hear is the same stuff as when someone is meddling with a relationships.

"Women have to stay at home in a relationship."
"A relationship has to have children to be successful"
"A man has to make enough money for the family to survive."

All couples are different, just like how people themselves can be. If anyone wants to go that far, then it would be better if it didnt devolve into nonsensical stuff with no basis. Like I said before, people can dislike the couple, they can say they wouldnt want to be in a relationship like that and they can even find it creepy. But lets not get into "All couple must and mustnt...." territory.

[Oromin]

If the order tries to use Sunny's AMF on Team Evil couldn't Oona counter that with bees? One good throw might take Sunny out of the fight entirely. I feel like that tactic may have been foreshadowed deliberately.

[hroþila]

It's always so weird for me to see people discuss intelligence like it's a single lane. I'm super intelligent for some things, and unbelievably dumb for others.

Anyway, I agree with those who say the Haley/Elan relationship sometimes veers too much into uncomfortable "mom"/manchild territory. Elan needs to bring out the emotional intelligence (which he does have) more often, and at least be able to take care of himself at a basic level so that Haley doesn't have to do all the work here. There's an important difference between himbo and manchild after all.

[Yirggzmb]

I mean, as far as fictional relationships go, I'm not sure I've ever read one that makes sense why they're specifically dating instead of being really good friends or seeing each other as extended family. Haley/Elan makes as much sense to me in that regard as Roy/Celia does, just that we see both Elan and Haley way more often than we ever see Celia

[AstralFire]

Not if the point is to talk about them in real couple terms. Afterall, if this wasnt the case, I dont think the answer to "Its fiction. You are reading too much into it." would have been as it is.

...

I read all those comments about how the couple cannot work...

All what comments?

I don't see any that just flat say it cannot work. I see a lot that bend over backwards to say it can while giving criticism of the portrayal. I see like... two, pages ago, that straight say what Haley did was bad but most people seem to firmly acknowledge it's a joke that's landing weird in the context of the whole picture.

And I see a lot that say "this is kinda weirdly squick".


It's always so weird for me to see people discuss intelligence like it's a single lane.

Mm. I get that.

But while intelligence is absolutely an incredibly charged yet vague word about a many-featured field of things that are semi-to-not-related, we are discussing a comic in a setting that literally features Intelligence scores and a character that was and (this is the key point) continues to be premised heavily on having a low one, with a relationship dynamic that builds around it. I think Durkon is the only character Elan has a relationship with where a large slice of their interactions aren't premised around Elan not being intelligent?

So... I don't think it's weird in that context tbh? But I respect the discomfort. Especially when the discussions veer a bit more into evaluations of people in real life on their intelligence.

[bunsen_h]

Anyway, I agree with those who say the Haley/Elan relationship sometimes veers too much into uncomfortable "mom"/manchild territory. Elan needs to bring out the emotional intelligence (which he does have) more often, and at least be able to take care of himself at a basic level so that Haley doesn't have to do all the work here. There's an important difference between himbo and manchild after all.

Initially, it may have been all about Elan's charisma (https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/or05n/the_pickup_artist/). But they're of the same alignment, in a close-working team in which nobody else shares that alignment. Elan lacks "common sense" in many ways, and needs a lot of looking after when it comes to those areas. But if the two of them are both okay with Haley doing that looking-after... well, it's up to them. He also has a particular kind of wisdom regarding how the world works, far beyond that of anyone else in the party.

There's a passage that I can't quite remember correctly, nor its source. Something along the lines of "he always sees people for their best, and so we try not to disappoint him; he brings out the best in us". The closest I can think of is a comment by Miles about Gregor in one of Bujold's "Vorkosigan" novels, but that's not what I have in mind. At any rate, that's a really admirable character trait. For someone with deeply ingrained cynicism like Haley, who recognizes that as a serious flaw in themselves, regular positive reinforcement would be very attractive.

Though I can also bring to mind a couple I knew, about 15 years ago. The guy was highly intelligent, but also extremely cynical and bitter with a nasty turn of phrase, with a leaning towards having lots of locks on his doors and a gun collection (highly unusual in Canada). (EDIT: In the social group in which another guy had the same first name, this one was sometimes identified in conversations about him as "Grumpy [X]".) The woman was nice but... let's say, fairly dim. I could never see what they saw in each other. I could be cynical myself: perhaps he wanted a woman to have children with, and no woman of normal intelligence would put up with him; perhaps she was having trouble finding a partner who would put up with her and support her. At any rate, it was working for them, at least at that time. I haven't seen or heard anything from them for quite a while.

[DaOldeWolf]

All what comments?

I don't see any that just flat say it cannot work.

Here is just from you (though there are many I have seen from both sides of the argument):


Elan is the sweetest person in the world but I've never seen a romantic relationship that could be powered by sweetness alone.




I have seen goodness alone be the foundation of romantic relationships in real life between individuals with much less maturity and intellectual deficit between them. It has never ended well unless one partner changed in a way to alter the chemistry between them, in my recollection.


I will point out that this isnt about a "gotcha!" moment. And you are far from the only person giving their personal take on relationships. I dont like putting people on the spot which is why I limited myself here with just you with the examples (because we all sometimes dont notice stuff we say). And I am sorry to using you as the example here but you wanted an example and I am in a tough spot where you seem to really want an answer. I hopethat this will satisfy your uestion and will allow you to understand my standing and where I am coming from. Once again, I apologize in advance for using you as an example. And like I said before, you are far from the only one.

[AstralFire]

Here is just from you (though there are many I have seen from both sides of the argument):

I will point out that this isnt about a "gotcha!" moment. And you are far from the only person giving their personal take on relationships. I dont like putting people on the spot which is why I limited myself here with just you with the examples (because we all sometimes dont notice stuff we say). And I am sorry to using you as the example here but you wanted an example and I am in a tough spot where you seem to really want an answer. I hopethat this will satisfy your uestion and will allow you to understand my standing and where I am coming from. Once again, I apologize in advance for using you as an example. And like I said before, you are far from the only one.

This is exactly why I responded as if you were talking to me in the first place.

You're taking my comments of critical disbelief and discomfort in the portrayal based on my real-life experiences and reading that as a prescriptive statement as if they were real people with a real relationship. I am making a descriptive comparison of real relationships I have seen and illustrating why this portrayal doesn't quite work for me. Those are related; they are not the same. Your interpretation suggests that readers are never entitled to say that a relationship an author is portraying is not believable/not comfortable to them.

Again: If Elan and Haley were real people, I'd still be uncomfortable, but until one or the other said a damn thing, I would respect the dignity of those individuals and not say anything about their relationship. Were they real people, I absolutely do not have a birds' eye view and there is no author making decisions about fate (or at least not one I can see). These would still be cautionary signs if they were real, but cautionary is not danger, and I would not be a person able to meaningfully evaluate or with the right to judge as a third person.

But they are not real; the writer is striving to communicate something to me and chooses what to show. So as a reader, I retain my right to say 'hey, this doesn't ping as real to me'.

[hroþila]

Initially, it may have been all about Elan's charisma (https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/or05n/the_pickup_artist/). But they're of the same alignment, in a close-working team in which nobody else shares that alignment. Elan lacks "common sense" in many ways, and needs a lot of looking after when it comes to those areas. But if the two of them are both okay with Haley doing that looking-after... well, it's up to them. He also has a particular kind of wisdom regarding how the world works, far beyond that of anyone else in the party.
I think the reason this kind of interaction between them doesn't quite work for me is that I can't read simply it as "well, it's up to them" due to the prevalence of incredibly uneven relationships both in the real world and in fiction where the woman has to double as a partner and as a caregiver for the guy, who pretty much refuses to take responsibility for himself. "Well, it's up to them" works perfectly fine as long as the relationship is still balanced overall, but in those examples from the real world and from fiction it almost never is, which kinda spoils these moments in Haley and Elan's relationship for me even if I know perfectly well that there's no malice and, importantly, no carelessness or neglect in Elan's behaviour, and that he does his share of the emotional work.

[DaOldeWolf]

This is exactly why I responded as if you were talking to me in the first place.

You're taking my comments of critical disbelief and discomfort in the portrayal based on my real-life experiences and reading that as a prescriptive statement as if they were real people with a real relationship. Your interpretation suggests that readers are never entitled to say that a relationship an author is portraying is not believable to them.

:smallconfused:

How? I am responding to everyone in my first post in this topic. You consider my first paragraph to be response to you when its just me saying to another user that I agree with them on something. Like I said, its not especifically for anyone in particular, so why do you keep treating it as such? :smallconfused: Please, explain it to me.

Those examples are absolute statements, as far as I know, on what doesnt work in a relationship.

As for your interpretation. That is not what I am saying. Your interpretation is completely off. My suggestion would be to read again what I am saying.

Because for example, when a person says "People are like ants", they arent saying people are ants or that people are insects. They are saying there are similarities between the two. The same applies here.

[AstralFire]

:smallconfused:

How? I am responding to everyone in my first post in this topic. You consider my first paragraph to be response to you when its just me saying to another user that I agree with them on something. Like I said, its not especifically for anyone in particular, so why do you keep treating it as such? :smallconfused: Please, explain it to me.

Those examples are absolute statements, as far as I know, on what doesnt work in a relationship.

As for your interpretation. That is not what I am saying. Your interpretation is completely off. My suggestion would be to read again what I am saying.

Because for example, when a person says "People are like ants", they arent saying people are ants or that people are insects. They are saying there are similarities between the two. The same applies here.

Your statements (and the other user's) are not made in a vacuum. If you really just hopped in a hundred posts deep during a conversation involving the concept of intelligence to say, bereft of all context, that intelligence is overrated and you had absolutely no commentary on the ongoing discussion, I don't know what to say. That's not unbelievable, either, just befuddling.

And no, those are not absolute statements. They are pretty strong statements about tendencies and experience that go into making a fictional character believable.

An absolute statement would be "Haley and Elan will never work out because they have nothing in common." An absolute prescriptive statement would be, "you should never have a long-term relationship built solely on one factor."

Those are also not things I believe, because there are way too many relationships out there for me to authoritatively state what will and will not work in every case. But I feel pretty comfortable saying there are trends and that the more non-normative something is in fiction, the more it generally behooves the writer to make a case for (or at least be ginger about!) their exception, lest they lose the audience.

I would love to see an example of how you think people should use their experience to explain why a fictional relationship isn't believable or isn't comfortable to them without straying into prescriptions/mandates for how relationships would work.

[DaOldeWolf]

Your statements (and the other user's) are not made in a vacuum. If you really just hopped in a hundred posts deep during a conversation involving the concept of intelligence to say, bereft of all context, that intelligence is overrated and you had absolutely no commentary on the ongoing discussion, I don't know what to say. That's not unbelievable, either, just befuddling.


What? Are you telling me I dont have the right to agree to a statement without it being misrepresented? :smallconfused: If I say a comment I made doesnt have anything to do with how it was interpreted. Then I explained the intent. I think the polite thing to do, its to accept the new stance as it is. I think its rather rude to keep pushing forward an interpretation I said is wrong on the matter. Especially from someone that wants to push their own opinion forward.


And no, those are not absolute statements. They are pretty strong statements about tendencies and experience that go into making a fictional character believable.

Did you not read what I wrote? :smallconfused: I put "as far as I know" in there for a reason. Pretty different from your stance where you apparently seem to know not only what I write but even the intent behind it. And then feel bad on this wrongfully thought intent that you came up with yourself. Look, if you want to engage, I will gladly speak but please consider what you write and what assumptions you are making. And if you are told, that isnt the case, then revise the premise of your argument. (Of course, that is only my suggestion)


An absolute statement would be "Haley and Elan will never work out because they have nothing in common." An absolute prescriptive statement would be, "you should never have a long-term relationship built solely on one factor."

"Relationships like X never work" sounds pretty absolute to me. I would even dare to say your new example is less absolute since its talking about the future. It sounds more like a prediction.


Those are also not things I believe, because there are way too many relationships out there for me to authoritatively state what will and will not work in every case. But I feel pretty comfortable saying there are trends and that the more non-normative something is in fiction, the more it generally behooves the writer to make a case for (or at least be ginger about!) their exception, lest they lose the audience.

If you agree with me that relationships are too complex to box into one single thing, then why are you debating with me? :smallconfused:


I would love to see an example of how you think people should use their experience to explain why a fictional relationship isn't believable or isn't comfortable to them without straying into prescriptions/mandates for how relationships would work.

What? :smallconfused: Please dont assign me your guiding questions. I wont answer them (mainly because you are putting words into my mouth that I never said). I already said your interpretation is wrong. If you want to challenge my point of view, challenge it. But dont give me questions based on an interpretation I already told you is wrong.

[AstralFire]

Look, I'm going to stop at this point. The following points seem very clear to me:


You are trying to be respectful.
You are grossly misinterpreting my statements.


I am also trying to be nice. I am apparently also grossly misinterpreting your statements in the process of trying to understand your logic. I don't think either of us continuing to irritate the other is worthwhile. So I'm just gonna back off and let's never speak of this again.

[Thermophille]

So sayeth most people, interestingly enough.


Not at all in my experience. It sounds like you spend a lot of time around smart people.

[Peelee]

Not at all in my experience.

Anecdotal data is famously not very good data.

Conversely (https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=how+many+people+think+they+are+above+average+int elligence)...

[Thermophille]

Anecdotal data is famously not very good data.

Conversely (https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=how+many+people+think+they+are+above+average+int elligence)...

Two points:

First, guessing -if asked- whether you are more intelligent than average is very different from claiming you are more intelligent than average.

Second, 15% error rate is pretty good for self-evaluation, which is notoriously bad. I'd argue that most people have a good sense of their own intelligence.


In fact, considering how many types of intelligence there are (information processing, memory, comprehension...), it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that most people are more intelligent than average in at least one major area, but I don't have enough information to debate whether this creates a meaningful bias in either direction.

[dancrilis]

I don't think I can disagree with this strongly enough.


I don't know - can you explain why you disagree with it.

For the average 1st level commoner intelligence governs skill points and certain skills - but wisdom governs the profession skills (and others), and charisma governs the social skills and it is the wisdom and charisma skills that help keep food on the table.

If you woke up tomorrow as a commoner in a dnd world and you knew you would never move past level 1 (i.e no multi-classing or oddities I haven't considered for you) would you prefer Wisdom 18 and Intelligence 3 or Wisdom 3 and Intelligence 18.

That is a personal choice and as such their is no wrong answer to it but from a quality of life prespective Wisdom seems the better bet to me - you are still fully literate in your base languages, and have better earning potential and are more aware of what goes on around you, and are better at resisting mental influnce - sure you don't have as much general knowledge but for most people knowing history is likely less important then having a profession as a historian (and others will likely believe the historian anyway).

[DaOldeWolf]

Look, I'm going to stop at this point. The following points seem very clear to me:


You are trying to be respectful.
You are grossly misinterpreting my statements.


I am also trying to be nice. I am apparently also grossly misinterpreting your statements in the process of trying to understand your logic. I don't think either of us continuing to irritate the other is worthwhile. So I'm just gonna back off and let's never speak of this again.

Of course but that is partially because cultural differences. In my mother language, english sometimes sounds rude if we just go by translation (especially on written form). I usually use emoticons and many formal and respectful words to try to drive my intent that I am not angry or upset.

Its important to try to stay casual. I am not irritated. :smallbiggrin: The strongest feeling would be confusion but I like a good debate every once in a while.


Anecdotal data is famously not very good data.

Conversely (https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=how+many+people+think+they+are+above+average+int elligence)...
Actually, I have the opposite problem. Despite stuff like IQ tests saying I am supposedly smart (I have been in teraphy myself :smallbiggrin:). I dont think I am smart. I dont feel smart.

[woweedd]

Huh. I mean, the gag did feel like a bit much, maybe, but Elan has been fairly-competent-when-the-chips-are-down for 4 books now, and he's never stopped being kinda immature and goofy the whole way, expecting him to suddenly become so now seems weird. Plus, he's gotten better. If anything, he was way more infantilized early on, and matured up around the time he and Haley started dating (while still retaining a certain immaturity). Also, something intersting I heard noted: Elan is actually the youngest of the group. According to DCF, he's 22. For a sense of comparison, Haley is 25, Belkar is somewhere over 28, Roy is 29, Durkon is 55 (which, amditley, for a Dwarf, seems to be basically equivalent to being in his 20s), and, of course, V is over 131. Elves. Point is, Elan is, in fact, the youngest of the group PHYSICALLY as well as emotionally, he's effectively fresh out of college in our terms. Which still doesn't really explain it, but I find intersting.


I don't know - can you explain why you disagree with it.

For the average 1st level commoner intelligence governs skill points and certain skills - but wisdom governs the profession skills (and others), and charisma governs the social skills and it is the wisdom and charisma skills that help keep food on the table.

If you woke up tomorrow as a commoner in a dnd world and you knew you would never move past level 1 (i.e no multi-classing or oddities I haven't considered for you) would you prefer Wisdom 18 and Intelligence 3 or Wisdom 3 and Intelligence 18.

That is a personal choice and as such their is no wrong answer to it but from a quality of life prespective Wisdom seems the better bet to me - you are still fully literate in your base languages, and have better earning potential and are more aware of what goes on around you, and are better at resisting mental influnce - sure you don't have as much general knowledge but for most people knowing history is likely less important then having a profession as a historian (and others will likely believe the historian anyway).
I think Peele wasn't using Intelligence in the D&D mechanics sense, especially since "Wisdom" has always been a REALLY vaguely defined stat in itself.

[Peelee]

IQ tests

Personal opinion here, I don't find IQ tests to be worth the paper they're printed on.

[DaOldeWolf]

Personal opinion here, I don't find IQ tests to be worth the paper they're printed on.

Human intelligence is hard to measure in general.

[Liquor Box]

Personal opinion here, I don't find IQ tests to be worth the paper they're printed on.

Is there a different measure you prefer? Your posts on the last page suggest that you don't hold self assessment in high regard.



Seperately (and not directed at anyone in particular), when I agreed with the statement that intelligence was overrated, i was meaning in the context of selecting a partner. It can be very useful for earning a good living. I just don't think it's that high on the list of what most people look for in a sexual partner or relationship.

[Thermophille]

when I agreed with the statement that intelligence was overrated, i was meaning in the context of selecting a partner. It can be very useful for earning a good living. I just don't think it's that high on the list of what most people look for in a sexual partner or relationship.

I apologize if I gave the impression that intelligence is worthless, looking back, I think my point came across more generally than I meant it, since I thought the context was clear. If everyone had an intelligence score of 10, we'd still be in the dark ages, if that.

My point is that I don't think it has much in the way of personal value, which I realize is kind of a fuzzy concept, but I think that anyone who considers their intelligence a point of pride is two steps behind someone who isn't intelligent or prideful.

[danielxcutter]

Personal opinion here, I don't find IQ tests to be worth the paper they're printed on.

I think the inventor of them made them to figure out which kids needed special help when learning instead of them to be an objective measurement of intellect and competence... so of course that's exactly what everyone used it for.

[Thermophille]

I think the inventor of them made them to figure out which kids needed special help when learning instead of them to be an objective measurement of intellect and competence... so of course that's exactly what everyone used it for.

Wasn't there also some racism there?

[bunsen_h]

I don't intend to speak against the value of intelligence. It's important, and I find it frustrating to deal with people of low intelligence. But having spent too much of my life trying to cope with highly-intelligent cranky *******s, and having been a highly-intelligent bit-of-a-jerk myself, I now see more value than I used to in wisdom, honesty, and generosity of spirit. At least when it comes down to assessing the nebulous "what is the worth of this person as a person".

[danielxcutter]

Wasn't there also some racism there?

Frankly I don’t remember, but racists do tend to latch onto any flimsy justification they can find so… maybe?

[Fyraltari]

IQ tests are bunk. As was said above the original test (who wan't quite an IQ test but it's the basis) was aimed at finding children the school system was failing in order for them to receive lessons tailored to their needs.

The modern IQ tests are based on several unproven assumptions, chief among them the existence of "general factor" that governs every form of intelligence (again, never proven to exist) and the idea that this general factor follows a normal distrubution (mathematic term, it maps to a bell curve ie most peope are close to average with fewer outliers the farther you are from the average, think of the distribution of the results of 5d6) with no justification for why it should which means that the results of IQ testing are often heavily distorted to make it fit the expected results. Most damning over is the established fact that the more IQ tests you take, the higher you score, you can train for them, meaning they don't measure an inherent part of your nature but your ability to take the bloody tests.

There is indeed a history of using IQ testing to justify racist/classist/eugenist policies, by using studies that shows that certain ethnic or social groups perform worse than others and those tests. These studies always ignore thr context such as pre-existing racist policies (like the ****ing Apartheid) or worse access to education (often meaning poor literacy levels) or cultural assumptions within the questions or children taking tests in a language that isn't their native tongue that ensure poor results.

TL;DR: Idiocracy is not a documentary.

[Thermophille]

I'm not a statistician, but doesn't almost everything based on random variation follow a standard distribution?

[Fyraltari]

I'm not a statistician, but doesn't almost everything based on random variation follow a standard distribution?

Everything that is the result of several identical independent random events, yes. There is no evidence that differences in cognitive ability are caused by such.

Edit: and again, the fact is that even when large groups pass the same test, the results don't map to a bell curve and have to be artificially transformed to do so.

[mjasghar]

The problem with most of these tests is they end up being more about doing well at test than what they are testing for
Specifically with iq tests they assume high levels of education in formal English etc. Most importantly the non verbal reasoning logic tests are actually the worst as you can get higher results for them if you have practice questions so you know how they are structured. It’s why private schools in the uk do so well - they have their own private exam board so they only need past papers from that board for the pupils to memorise.
Unfortunately statisticians rarely see their own prejudices- I had a stats lecturer whose introduction to the subject was about the red car fallacy. Yet years later I heard he had made comments about race and iq having fallen for that fallacy himself.

[Liquor Box]

IQ tests are bunk. As was said above the original test (who wan't quite an IQ test but it's the basis) was aimed at finding children the school system was failing in order for them to receive lessons tailored to their needs.

The modern IQ tests are based on several unproven assumptions, chief among them the existence of "general factor" that governs every form of intelligence (again, never proven to exist) and the idea that this general factor follows a normal distrubution (mathematic term, it maps to a bell curve ie most peope are close to average with fewer outliers the farther you are from the average, think of the distribution of the results of 5d6) with no justification for why it should which means that the results of IQ testing are often heavily distorted to make it fit the expected results. Most damning over is the established fact that the more IQ tests you take, the higher you score, you can train for them, meaning they don't measure an inherent part of your nature but your ability to take the bloody tests.

If the assumption that human intelligence maps to a normal distribution is incorrect, that wouldn't undermine the idea that iq correlates with intelligence. Any distortion would not change that a better testing result would lead to a better iq score. I may mean that the extent of the difference in iq scores is not a good representation of testing results.

Your other reason you give is that g factor is not proven. That's true, it's probably unproveable. But observable data (eg. performance across a wide variety of different mental tasks correlating) is consistent with somethin of its nature existing.

We do know that iq score is a predicter to some degree of several things that we might intuitively think would be intelligence based (eg, income, school performance, job performance). It's possible that this might be because of some cofounding variable, but it has been replicated in multiple studies, which have controlled for things like economic status. So even if we can't prove why iq tests work, they do work to some extent.

It is of course widely acknowledged that iq does not capture all aspects of things which we might consider intelligence (I think creativity is something which it is widely accepted to not accurately capture.

So it ought to be taken for what it is - a system for measuring some aspects of human intelligence, which is not perfect, but does produce results that are meaningful for some purposes.

Which, if you thinks about it, puts it in the same place as any other testing. The tests people take to qualify as doctors, lawyers, engineers or other such professions also rely on tests that are imperfect (eg taking more tests makes you better at them), have limitations, but still produce useful results.

I suggest that there's a middle ground between saying that they're 'bunk' and them being a perfect representation of human intelligence.

[Peelee]

We do know that iq score is a predicter to some degree of several things that we might intuitively think would be intelligence based (eg, income

I'm going to press X to doubt that IQ tests have any sort of prediction ability towards income, which is wholly irrelevant to intelligence.

[Liquor Box]

I'm going to press X to doubt that IQ tests have any sort of prediction ability towards income, which is wholly irrelevant to intelligence.

I'm surprised that you think intelligence is wholly irrelevant to income. It seems to me intuitive that there would be some relationship between intelligence and income given that several high paying jobs (eg doctors) require decent intelligence. If a person had significantly below average intelligence that would seems to make a whole lot of profession choices unlikely to be obtained. More broadly lots and lots of roles (eg administrative roles) require some degree of education which gets easier the more intelligent you are. If nothing else, intelligence would offer an advantage in terms of figuring out how to make more money.

Absolutely not the only factor, quite likely not even the most important factor. But I can't accept that intelligence is entirely irrelevant to income.

Anyway, here are a couple of articles on the point of IQ predicting income. If you want actual studies, I'm sure i can find some
https://www.expensivity.com/iq-and-salary-connection/
https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/09/iq-and-success-can-a-test-score-determine-later-outcomes-in-life.html

[hroþila]

But if IQ tests are biased towards people with a particular kind of education that folks from existing high-income families are more likely to get, isn't the whole thing just kinda circular?

[Liquor Box]

But if IQ tests are biased towards people with a particular kind of education that folks from existing high-income families are more likely to get, isn't the whole thing just kinda circular?

As I mentioned a couple of posts back, there are studies which have controlled for economic circumstances (so have compared the results of people with similar economic backgrounds) and have still produced results.

That doesn't mean that that economic background doesn't influence the results somewhat. If so, that would be an imperfection in the validity of the score, but it suggests the score measure something more than that.


Edit:
I googled it and found this study.
https://medcraveonline.com/JNSK/factors-influencing-intelligence-quotient.html
It concludes that IQ is influenced by both environmental and inherent factors, and says at one point that socioeconomic status is one factor that correlates with IQ (if you want to find it, I suggest a wordsearch of the term 'economic').

[Peelee]

I'm surprised that you think intelligence is wholly irrelevant to income. It seems to me intuitive that there would be some relationship between intelligence and income given that several high paying jobs (eg doctors) require decent intelligence.

Such high paying jobs require decent schoolwork, not necessarily intelligence.

Further, from those very articles you posted:

Researchers have generally found that there is a positive correlation between IQ and salary.
Correlation does not equate to being a predictor. Correlation could be wholly unrelated (https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations). And hey, I wonder if one of the articles you posted says as much.

An IQ score correlates with success but doesn’t dictate it, and it is a poor “measure of the man.” Allow me to be politically incorrect for a moment to make my point: Saying that IQ scores predict success is a little like saying that the color of your skin at birth predicts your future income.
Oh my, it appears as if the very articles you put up as evidence that it is a predictor openly say "this is not a predictor".

[Liquor Box]

Such high paying jobs require decent schoolwork, not nevessarily intelligence.

True, but intelligence is at least a factor in being succesful in school. Again, absolutely not the only factor, but a factor.

IQ does predict success at school at least very strongly, so if you think school success is a predictor of income it stands to reason IQ would be too)


Further, from those very articles you posted:

Correlation does not equate to being a predictor. Correlation could be wholly unrelated (https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations). And hey, I wonder if one of the articles you posted days as much.

Oh my, it appears as if the very articles you put up as evidence that it is a predictor openly say "this is not a predictor".

Saying it does not dictate is different from saying it does not predict. Dictating it makes it certain, predicting it only means it is more likely.

As ot what the articles say about IQ predicting income:

If you take a “real” IQ test (see comments below), then the result is a strong statistical predictor of multiple future life outcomes—income, education level, health, even longevity.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/09/iq-and-success-can-a-test-score-determine-later-outcomes-in-life.html

It would not be inaccurate to say that a higher IQ can predict a higher salary.
https://www.expensivity.com/iq-and-salary-connection/

Here's what Wikipedia says on the point (usefully noting the results when controlling for parental socialeconomic status):

The American Psychological Association's 1995 report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that IQ scores accounted for about a quarter of the social status variance and one-sixth of the income variance. Statistical controls for parental SES eliminate about a quarter of this predictive power.

[Peelee]

As ot what the articles say about IQ predicting income:
Let's look at the very next sentence that you notably didn't quote.

There are loads of studies that confirm these correlations. So in that sense, it “predicts” your future “success.” However—and it’s a big however—be careful what inferences you draw from this answer.
Oh my, with all those quotation marks it appears as if they are trying very much to distance themselves from this idea. And hey, all those things it "predicts", as luck would have it, those are already all predicated on having a safe, stable, well-off environment to start with. Why, one might wonder if the types of people who get formal IQ testing are already the exact demographic to be correlated with such things!

I hope Nick Cage stops making movies entirely, we can significantly reduce drownings by falling into a pool that way.

[Liquor Box]

Let's look at the very next sentence that you notably didn't quote.

Oh my, with all those quotation marks it appears as if they are trying vrtu much to distance themselves from this idea. And hey, all those things it "predicts",

Yep it goes on to say

Don’t equate IQ with intelligence. It’s still a matter of, at times heated, debate as to what IQ actually measures. And it’s also a complex conversation to discuss what we mean by intelligence.

Which funnily enough, I also acknowledged.

Like I said, it is a predictor of income, but it is not on all fours with what we think of as intelligence.


as luck would have it, those are already all predicated on having a safe, stable, well-off environment to start with. Why, one might wonder if the types of people who get formal IQ testing are already the exact demographic to be correlated with such things!

As noted in three of my previous posts, several studies have controlled with economic status. See the quote from the wikipedia article for example.

[Peelee]

Yep it goes on to say


Which funnily enough, I also acknowledged.

Like I said, it is a predictor of income, but it is not on all fours with what we think of as intelligence.

The article explicitly says it "predicts" in the sense that it correlates. Which is exactly as much evidence that Nicholas Cage movies predict falling-in-pool drownings. Which is to say, it doesn't.

[Liquor Box]

The article explicitly says it "predicts" in the sense that it correlates. Which is exactly as much evidence that Nicholas Cage movies predict falling-in-pool drownings. Which is to say, it doesn't.

No it doesn't. It says that it is a "strong statistical predictor of...".

Cage movies are not a strong statistical predictor of falling in a pool because Cage only appears in a small number of movies a year, not enough for it to be a statistical predictor - they are not dependent. Your link is the very reason why statisitic require sufficient numbers to yield statisitically significant results. If you don't you just get odd coincidences from independent numbers, like Cage.

[Peelee]

No it doesn't. It says that it is a "strong statistical predictor of...".

Cage movies are not a strong statistical predictor of falling in a pool because Cage only appears in a small number of movies a year, not enough for it to be a statistical predictor - they are not dependent. Your link is the very reason why statisitic require sufficient numbers to yield statisitically significant results. If you don't you just get odd coincidences from independent numbers, like Cage.

I find it the height of irony that the article explicitly says to be careful what inferences you draw from this, and you go on to draw the exact inferences it says should not be drawn.

Maybe another quote from that article might help.

Allow me to be politically incorrect for a moment to make my point: Saying that IQ scores predict success is a little like saying that the color of your skin at birth predicts your future income. You can see the problems: Causality is an issue, the significance of other factors is an issue, and so on

[Liquor Box]

I find it the height of irony that the article explicitly says to be careful what inferences you draw from this, and you go on to draw the exact inferences it says should not be drawn.

Maybe another quote from that article might help.

If you cannot see the problems as the author has and as I have, then might I suggest this could be the crux?

Oh I completely get that side of it. I wasn't suggesting any inference from it other than that it was a predictor. Ethnicity is of course a predictor of income in USA, and so is IQ. The crux was perhaps that you were answering a different point from the one I was making?

The studies which control for socioeconomic status, and the studies that talk about the different factors that influence IQ (quoted or referenced previously) might have more value if we want to draw inferences. Those suggest that both environmental factor (like socioeconomic factors) an non-environmental factors (like inherent intelligence) are part of it.

At the end of the day, it's neither meaningless nor perfect, in my opinion at least.

[Peelee]

At the end of the day, it's neither meaningless nor perfect, in my opinion at least.

The article ends by stating it is meaningless, I would like to point out.

[Liquor Box]

The article ends by stating it is meaningless, I would like to point out.

It ends by stating that it is a predictor, and then poses the question "so what?"

To restate - I accept the article says that we should not jump to social conclusions based on the fact that IQ is a predictor of income. I'm not suggesting any social conclusions either.

[Peelee]

It ends by stating that it is a predictor, and then poses the question "so what?"

To restate - I accept the article says that we should not jump to social conclusions based on the fact that IQ is a predictor of income. I'm not suggesting any social conclusions either.

The article states "yes, this is technically true, if you look at it from a very specific angle and squint and then don't make any assumptions based on it, so.. So what?" If in slightly longer and less blatant phrasing. The "so what?" is fairly telling. It makes no sense if it purports that it's in any way an accurate or useful metric. Because it isn't. As the article explains in detail. Using that article as evidence that it is an accurate or useful metric is certainly an interesting take.

[Liquor Box]

The article states "yes, this is technically true, if you look at it from a very specific angle and squint and then don't make any assumptions based on it, so.. So what?" If in slightly longer and less blatant phrasing. The "so what?" is fairly telling. It makes no sense if it purports that it's in any way an accurate or useful metric. Because it isn't. As the article explains in detail. Using that article as evidence that it is an accurate or useful metric is certainly an interesting take.

The article does not in fact contain the quote you ascribe to it. That might be your take from the article (and if so, I don't think it's accurate), but it is not something the article says and should not have been presented in quotations. I have only quoted what it actually says.

We may be at cross purposes as to what we are discussing here. I thought we were discussing you view that IQ was not a predictor of income because of your surprising belief intelligence is "wholly irrelevant" to income. I referenced the article for that point alone (it was the first that came up on a google search) and it is explicit in several places that IQ tests are "a strong statistical predictor of... income". The article nowhere implies that any degree of squinting is necessary to reach this conclusion, and even notes that "there are loads of studies" that confirm this. I note further that this is only one of three sources I quoted to support my claim that IQ is a predictor of income.

Are we now finished with the question of whether IQ is a predictor of income, or do you still doubt it?


If we are finished with that, I would be happy to discuss the seperate topic of whether IQ is accurate or useful. I refer you back to my original comments on the point. I said that IQ tests do not (and do not claim to) represent the full spectrum of what we think of as human intelligence, and are instead more limited. Even in that limited capacity they are not perfect, but do produce results that are meaningful for some purposes. What do you think? What do you think its shortcomings are?

I get the problem that there are covariables, like socioeconomic status, that make the results less accurate at predicting the underlying intelligence, so if that is your point I agree,

I must admit, I get the feeling from you that there's an undercurrent of this being more than an academic discussion about dry subject matter. Are you concerned about some implication arising from IQ tests having some meaning that I am missing?

[Peelee]

The article does not in fact contain the quote you ascribe to it. I did not ascribe anything to th article except in quote blocks. Are you referring to my paraphrase, which I was very clear about being paraphrased?



We may be at cross purposes as to what we are discussing here. I thought we were discussing you view that IQ was not a predictor of income because of your surprising belief intelligence is "wholly irrelevant" to income. I referenced the article for that point alone (it was the first that came up on a google search) and it is explicit in several places that IQ tests are "a strong statistical predictor of... income". The article nowhere implies that any degree of squinting is necessary to reach this conclusion
Except where it does, which I ahve already quoted directly in previous replies. If you wish to ignore all the caveats given in the article that all but openly state that its simple correlation without know causation, feel free, but that's a path I will not follow you down.

Are we now finished with the question of whether IQ is a predictor of income, or do you still doubt it?
Of course I still doubt it, because nothing you have shown or said has given me any reason to believe it and, in fact, your own sources speak to how they are not useful for doing so.

That being said, I am perfectly content to be finished with the question of whether IQ is a predictor of income, since if you post articles that go against your own view and see them as supporting it, I doubt anything I can say would be of any use.

[Liquor Box]

Except where it does, which I ahve already quoted directly in previous replies. If you wish to ignore all the caveats given in the article that all but openly state that its simple correlation without know causation, feel free, but that's a path I will not follow you down.

No, I agree that there are caveats to IQ (and some are mentioned in the article). I have mentioned several myself. But none of the caveats detract from the underlying point we were discussing that IQ is a predictor of income.


Of course I still doubt it, because nothing you have shown or said has given me any reason to believe it and, in fact, your own sources speak to how they are not useful for doing so.

That being said, I am perfectly content to be finished with the question of whether IQ is a predictor of income, since if you post articles that go against your own view and see them as supporting it, I doubt anything I can say would be of any use.

To be abundantly clear (to be fair I may have edited one or two of these into a post after you'd started to quote it), I'll repeat the quotes which as far I can tell are pretty clearly contrary to your view that IQ is not a predictor of income.


If you take a “real” IQ test (see comments below), then the result is a strong statistical predictor of multiple future life outcomes—income, education level, health, even longevity.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/09/iq-and-success-can-a-test-score-determine-later-outcomes-in-life.html


It would not be inaccurate to say that a higher IQ can predict a higher salary.
https://www.expensivity.com/iq-and-salary-connection/


The American Psychological Association's 1995 report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that IQ scores accounted for about a quarter of the social status variance and one-sixth of the income variance. Statistical controls for parental SES eliminate about a quarter of this predictive power.

But if you still doubt that IQ is a predictor of income it after that, I am going to have to agree with you, that we will probably not change one another's minds.

[dancrilis]

Interesting as IQ might be - it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with the Intelligence characteristic in Dungeons and Dragons, and as such no real relevance to Elan and thereby not relevant to the relationship between Elan and Haley and thereby not revelant to 1259 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) unless I am missing something (which I very well might be).

As for Elan and Haley - as they get older both of them will become wiser, more intelligent and more charismatic, I suspect the relationship is on sound ground and if Elan felt he needed a boost to his intelligence stat to keep up with Haley he could always buy an intelligence boosting item to assist.

[Andtalath]

There's a lot of confusion about IQ.
First of all, IQ and intelligence is NOT the same thing, and intelligence is ill-defined.

The fascinating thing about IQ is that as a statistical correlation AND predictor, it's highly effective.
It's also very worth pointing out that a statistical predictor is NOT a good individual one.

Free from memory I think IQ correlates about 15% with life success, while diligence accounts for about 10%.

IQ is the singularly most important single statistic which correlates with success (generally defined as upwards mobility in society), it's still not a determining factor in 85% of cases, to simplify a bit.

Then what is IQ?
It's more along the lines of general knowledge than anything else, and the point of the tests is to just make a bunch of random questions and compare a group that can honestly be compared (they really need to be from a very similar cultural background to make the comparison, the closer the better).
If I make an american IQ test I will probably perform noticeably different (not saying better or worse since I don't know =P, but probably worse).

So, yes, IQ is important, but not that much on an individual level.

Also, personally, IQ works poorly on me since I've got an uneven distribution of intelligence (somewhere between 10%-20% has).

Also, IQ is not a universal but compared to other people making the test.

[arimareiji]

Wasn't there also some racism there?

People absolutely twisted the results to retro-justify their maladaptive points of view, famously so. Humans do that. (^_^)°

On a related topic, tests are almost unavoidably (in some degree) going to favor those whose background and worldview are similar to those of the test writer(s) - with no need for intent to do so. The illustration that broke through my inability to see this came from an 80s sitcom with disadvantaged kids of one race being brought up by a wealthy parent of another race:
One episode tried to address how tests can have racial bias without having racist intent, and somehow or another the disadvantaged kids got to confront a test-writer who proclaimed otherwise. So they gave him a test, with one question being something like "A house has one bedroom with two beds, and two bedrooms with one bed each. How many people can sleep in the house?" The test writer confidently proclaimed that the obvious answer was four. The kids told him he failed, and the right answer was fifteen - two per bed, two on the floor of each bedroom, and one in the bathtub.

It's a silly example, but it illustrates a bigger point: On any timed test, people who have a similar mindset to the test writer(s) will at the least have the big advantage of not having to carefully parse wording to understand what's being asked. And in more egregious examples, such as the one they gave, people with a different mindset may get questions "wrong" despite correctly answering to the best of their ability - simply because they don't have the same underlying assumptions.
For my own part, I scored pretty well on my SAT for college when I took it with no preparation. But after I was able to buy a test book and practice until I understood and could mirror the mindset of the test writers, my percentile scores improved by over an order of magnitude. I was the same person, and I hadn't gotten any smarter - I was just better able to quickly understand what they were trying to express, and what answers they were looking for.


There's a lot of confusion about IQ.
First of all, IQ and intelligence is NOT the same thing, and intelligence is ill-defined.

The fascinating thing about IQ is that as a statistical correlation AND predictor, it's highly effective.
It's also very worth pointing out that a statistical predictor is NOT a good individual one.

Free from memory I think IQ correlates about 15% with life success, while diligence accounts for about 10%.

IQ is the singularly most important single statistic which correlates with success (generally defined as upwards mobility in society), it's still not a determining factor in 85% of cases, to simplify a bit.

Then what is IQ?
It's more along the lines of general knowledge than anything else, and the point of the tests is to just make a bunch of random questions and compare a group that can honestly be compared (they really need to be from a very similar cultural background to make the comparison, the closer the better).
If I make an american IQ test I will probably perform noticeably different (not saying better or worse since I don't know =P, but probably worse).

So, yes, IQ is important, but not that much on an individual level.

Also, personally, IQ works poorly on me since I've got an uneven distribution of intelligence (somewhere between 10%-20% has).

Also, IQ is not a universal but compared to other people making the test.

I can't speak specifically to this, but I would note that elements other than IQ are far more closely correlated with "success" in a particular society that many posters have in mind. Sorry I can't be more specific, but I neither want to break forum rules nor encourage others to do so.

[Liquor Box]

There's a lot of confusion about IQ.
First of all, IQ and intelligence is NOT the same thing, and intelligence is ill-defined.

The fascinating thing about IQ is that as a statistical correlation AND predictor, it's highly effective.
It's also very worth pointing out that a statistical predictor is NOT a good individual one.

Free from memory I think IQ correlates about 15% with life success, while diligence accounts for about 10%.

IQ is the singularly most important single statistic which correlates with success (generally defined as upwards mobility in society), it's still not a determining factor in 85% of cases, to simplify a bit.

Then what is IQ?
It's more along the lines of general knowledge than anything else, and the point of the tests is to just make a bunch of random questions and compare a group that can honestly be compared (they really need to be from a very similar cultural background to make the comparison, the closer the better).
If I make an american IQ test I will probably perform noticeably different (not saying better or worse since I don't know =P, but probably worse).

So, yes, IQ is important, but not that much on an individual level.

Also, personally, IQ works poorly on me since I've got an uneven distribution of intelligence (somewhere between 10%-20% has).

Also, IQ is not a universal but compared to other people making the test.

Full credit to wading directly into this one in your opening post.

In terms of the article we have been discussing, it suggests that socioeconomic status and IQ combined contribute 14%to success, with IQ contributing 3/4ths of that (so just over 11%).


For example, in one large study correlating IQ and socio-economic status of parents with future income, IQ had a three-times higher “beta” than socio-economic status. That means how “smart” you are is much more important than who your parents are (the U.S. economy, in other words, is a relatively level playing field). However, the total R-squared of using both variables was only 0.14. That means that knowing the parents’ socio-economic status as well as the child’s IQ together only explained about 14 percent of the child’s future outcome.


The illustration that broke through my inability to see this came from an 80s sitcom with disadvantaged kids of one race being brought up by a wealthy parent of another race:
One episode tried to address how tests can have racial bias without having racist intent, and somehow or another the disadvantaged kids got to confront a test-writer who proclaimed otherwise. So they gave him a test, with one question being something like "A house has one bedroom with two beds, and two bedrooms with one bed each. How many people can sleep in the house?" The test writer confidently proclaimed that the obvious answer was four. The kids told him he failed, and the right answer was fifteen - two per bed, two on the floor of each bedroom, and one in the bathtub.

It's a silly example, but it illustrates a bigger point: On any timed test, people who have a similar mindset to the test writer(s) will at the least have the big advantage of not having to carefully parse wording to understand what's being asked. And in more egregious examples, such as the one they gave, people with a different mindset may get questions "wrong" despite correctly answering to the best of their ability - simply because they don't have the same underlying assumptions.

I've seen that sort of idea on TV too (eg. in the Wire, the kids who were terrible at maths until they looked at it through the lens of drug deals). Intuitively it seems something that might help, although TV probably exaggerates the extent. Do you know if there's any empirical evidence supporting it?

[Andtalath]

Full credit to wading directly into this one in your opening post.

In terms of the article we have been discussing, it suggests that socioeconomic status and IQ combined contribute 14%to success, with IQ contributing 3/4ths of that (so just over 11%).

Heh, I just thought it seemed like you guys where talking about slightly different things and therefore growing annoyed with each other.

Yeah, seems reasonable as well.
It's really tricky to define and determine such complex matters.

[littlebum2002]

But if IQ tests are biased towards people with a particular kind of education that folks from existing high-income families are more likely to get, isn't the whole thing just kinda circular?

This.

People whose families can afford to send them to good schools and have private tutors are going to, on average, do better on IQ tests than those whose families cannot afford these things.

People whose families can afford to send them to good schools and have private tutors are also going to, on average, have higher income levels in life due to the advantages living in a family like that provides.

I would be incredibly surprised if you couldn't make a pretty good prediction about someone's income based on their IQ test, since the same factors are pretty much directly responsible for both.

[danielxcutter]

Well that explains why mine were high as a kid… though I didn’t quite have a tutor.

[Peelee]

This.

People whose families can afford to send them to good schools and have private tutors are going to, on average, do better on IQ tests than those whose families cannot afford these things.

People whose families can afford to send them to good schools and have private tutors are also going to, on average, have higher income levels in life due to the advantages living in a family like that provides.

Indeed. It's almost as if the best predictor for scoring a run is being born on third base.

[Vikenlugaid]

I don't know if it is because I am not enough inteligent but I have lost the thread long ago.

Let's just say that inteligence is a very complex thing and even if someone is a real.dumb in one thing they can be pretty smart in another, in fact that is how most of the brains work.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm not a statistician, but doesn't almost everything based on random variation follow a standard distribution?

Nope, almost nothing does. Almost everything APPROXIMATES a standard distribution, if you are loose enough about your definition of "approximates".

A standard distribution has possible values out to + and - infinity, regardless of the mean. When you see a person with negative weight or height, call me and tell me.

A hypothetical normalized sum of an infinite number of identically distributed, non-zero variance, finite-variance trials will have a standard normal distribution. Yawn. Seriously, yawn. That's a lot of verbiage to explain what you need for a random number to be a standard normal distribution, and you don't get that in the real world.

Not too long ago, a bunch of companies lost an enormous amount of money by using computerized stock trading programs that assumed daily stock movement was normal. It turns out it's not, the tail is thicker than a normal would have it.

As has been said, IQ appears to be normal, largely because they renormalize the test results to try to force a roughly normal result with mean of 100 and standard deviation of 15.

[Peelee]

Apropos of absolutely nothing, but ever since like thee months ago I found it super interesting that my Wordle graph has a pretty close Bell curve, with several days being a perfect one.

[Thermophille]

Nope, almost nothing does.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. My statistics textbook said something along the lines that all random variance followed standard distribution, but I always found that odd, because real life is too messy for things to actually boil down to pure chance. It's good to know that my initial suspicion was justified.

[Ionathus]

This seems to be ranging close to the territory of: Is Haley taking advantage of the mentally handicapped for her own sexual pleasure.

Yikes, I come back after three days and the forum discussion's gotten dark. Add my voice to the chorus of "nobody seemed to be actually saying this, and it's a serious exaggeration."

Regarding all the talk about whether the relationship is inappropriate or believable: I still believe it works and isn't toxic. I just wish the language used was different. As Fyraltari put quite eloquently a few pages back, the "female partner as mother-figure" is a real problem in both fiction and a lot of real-life attitudes: I have witnessed multiple new mothers in my circle subjected (without irony) to variations of the 'joke', "...well, now you have two babies in the house to look after!" That doesn't mean anyone who made those comments is a misogynist: it's just a big ugly assumption about how women are expected to relate to men, and I like to imagine a world where we don't treat it like it's so obvious and expected that you can make jokes about it.


Except that it also depends on what the series. If it's a parody like this and the story does have a large reputation of not taking itself that seriously, then maybe that is something to keep in mind. We can find patterns sure, but those patterns have to be analyzed in the greater whole and context.

It's like trying to apply realism to a Looney Tunes cartoon. Sure we can do so all we like and get something, but it is still a Looney Tunes cartoon, which was created under a fundemental set of rules and with expectations all from it.

You can argue that the Order of the Stick doesn't take itself seriously, sure, but at this point I'm only going to agree with you if we're talking about D&D mechanics or narrative tropes. If we're talking about characterization or themes, OotS is one of my all-time favorites, and Rich has also talked a lot about how seriously he takes the storytelling and the message of the comic. Just because something is humorous or a parody doesn't mean it can't be committed to having strong, affirming character dynamics.

Especially because Rich has talked about this specific topic before: regarding his early portrayals of Haley's behavior and her use of gendered insults, saying that he cares deeply about offensive portrayals and actively avoids them, even in the context of a parody webcomic. I'm not saying these examples of pseudo-mothering are anywhere close to the seriousness of those discussions -- I'm just saying that the author clearly cares about this stuff, and has talked about it multiple times.

[Fyraltari]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. My statistics textbook said something along the lines that all random variance followed standard distribution, but I always found that odd, because real life is too messy for things to actually boil down to pure chance. It's good to know that my initial suspicion was justified.
Yeah, but it's a bit like saying there aren't any triangles in the real world. It's technically true, but you can find some pretty good approximations. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HpvBZnHOVI)

As Fyraltari put quite eloquently

Why, thank you!

[Seward]

Getting back away from IQ tests (went to Caltech, we all thought IQ tests - and Mensa - were stupid).

Haley-Elan relationship.

1. 10s date 10s. Two highest charisma characters in the party, of an attracting gender, would likely notice and be attracted by each other and ALSO not assume the other is "out of their league".

2. Elan makes Haley a better person (getting her to recognize her tendency to distrust, and to try not to take actions that would bother him). Eg talking over her decision to straight up kill Crystal Golem after.

3. Haley makes Elan a better person (getting him to think about consequences of his actions even if narrative logic would have them take that action). For example, he no longer tries to seduce female antagonists without asking her if it is ok, and when one starts a one-sided relationship with him then dies, he tells her about it even though the expectation is he would not, she'd find out anyway and make all the wrong assumptions, there would be dramatic conflict and a resolution.

4. Elan trusts that if Haley tells him to do something, even if he doesn't understand it, she's smart and it is probably a good idea. He trusts that she won't abuse it.

5. Haley trusts that if Elan is disturbed by something she is doing or might do, that could be important. She's also likely to take his narrative logic seriously, if it isn't too silly.

6. Both like each other's authentic selves.

7. They proved compatible when they actually had the sex. Some relationships with a lot of attraction at first that doesn't happen.

8. This relationship has really only existed "in person" for a few weeks (after Roy got Rezzed) and "at all beyond unrequited love" for a few months (just before the big battle in Azure city). They aren't going to act like a married couple of 30 years with that "married telepathy", finishing each other's sentences or knowing what they like and dislike so well that they can anticipate a need for "alone time" or a desire for company or what the "we have to talk" kind of situation is serious and you need to stop whatever you are doing and pay total attention.

Basically that strip to me was #4. Since Elan wanted to do it anyway he responded with enthusiasm. When he did, Haley realized potential consequences and also she left her bow behind, and added more instructions. She did them in the firm "pay attention to this" voice so Elan won't forget while having fun and will actually take what she's saying seriously. She might have learned Elan doesn't pay attention to much, so she has to use a "Mom Voice" on him, perhaps his actual mother used similar tone and posture when he was about to stick his hand in the fire because it was pretty or seduce somebody's wife by accident because he was so hot and charming.

From the outside, might look odd. From the inside, it's how their relationship work. As a veteran of a 32 year relationship with the woman who is now my wife, we have a lot of ways of communicating, hard earned from earlier misunderstandings. Took us a year to actually act on our attraction to each other, disentangling from other relationships and I guarantee you that we made more mistakes communicating in that first year of being an "official couple" than Haley or Elan are doing. Indeed, they're doing very well for a relationship that is so young in-universe, as opposed to a decade or so old in our time.

[arimareiji]

Yikes, I come back after three days and the forum discussion's gotten dark. Add my voice to the chorus of "nobody seemed to be actually saying this, and it's a serious exaggeration."
As one of the people who supposedly contributed to some overall picture making it a fair characterization, thank you.


(snip) I just wish the language used was different. As Fyraltari put quite eloquently a few pages back, the "female partner as mother-figure"
I just wish the language used was different. As Fyraltari put quite eloquently a few pages back, the "female partner as mother-figure" is a real problem in both fiction and a lot of real-life attitudes: I have witnessed multiple new mothers in my circle subjected (without irony) to variations of the 'joke', "...well, now you have two babies in the house to look after!" That doesn't mean anyone who made those comments is a misogynist: it's just a big ugly assumption about how women are expected to relate to men, and I like to imagine a world where we don't treat it like it's so obvious and expected that you can make jokes about it.
Thank you for pointing this out, I missed noticing how apt this is. To my mind, it's a weird (and disturbing) dichotomy: One presentation of it seems to be "Men deserve to act like spoiled children", and the other "Women have the mental capacity of children and need a caretaker". Both are "pseudo-parent lover" on the surface, but there's quite a nasty devil in the details.


(snip) Rich has also talked a lot about how seriously he takes the storytelling and the message of the comic. Just because something is humorous or a parody doesn't mean it can't be committed to having strong, affirming character dynamics.

Especially because Rich has talked about this specific topic before: regarding his early portrayals of Haley's behavior and her use of gendered insults, saying that he cares deeply about offensive portrayals and actively avoids them, even in the context of a parody webcomic. I'm not saying these examples of pseudo-mothering are anywhere close to the seriousness of those discussions -- I'm just saying that the author clearly cares about this stuff, and has talked about it multiple times.
I can only make wild guesses, but sometimes I wonder if Haley-Elan is a deliberate inversion of "Women have the..." above. If so, I'm certain it comes from a good-hearted place. For me personally the trope is too squicky to redeem, but no one is a worse person for feeling otherwise - just in a different place than I am.

[Liquor Box]

This.

People whose families can afford to send them to good schools and have private tutors are going to, on average, do better on IQ tests than those whose families cannot afford these things.

People whose families can afford to send them to good schools and have private tutors are also going to, on average, have higher income levels in life due to the advantages living in a family like that provides.

I would be incredibly surprised if you couldn't make a pretty good prediction about someone's income based on their IQ test, since the same factors are pretty much directly responsible for both.

It does partly. Socioeconomic status predicts success about a third of as well as IQ tests do.



Where IQ tests and success does become quite circular is where IQ tests are required by employers to hire people or promote them. That may not be controlled for in the research. At my workplace we require applicants to undergo quite intensive testing (which are not IQ tests, but are similar) and take the outcomes into account when making hiring (and sometimes promotion) decisions.



Haley-Elan relationship.

1. 10s date 10s. Two highest charisma characters in the party, of an attracting gender, would likely notice and be attracted by each other and ALSO not assume the other is "out of their league".


This tends to be true. And if Hayley is not a 10 herself (a few references suggest that she probably isn't), people who are not 10 themselves often want to date 10s.

It may just be that some people have different preferences for what they look for in a partner than Hayley does.

[Ionathus]

Thank you for pointing this out, I missed noticing how apt this is. To my mind, it's a weird (and disturbing) dichotomy: One presentation of it seems to be "Men deserve to act like spoiled children", and the other "Women have the mental capacity of children and need a caretaker". Both are "pseudo-parent lover" on the surface, but there's quite a nasty devil in the details.

There's also the similar concept of "weaponized incompetence" -- i.e. people who deliberately fail at tasks to avoid having to do them again. It was cute and clever when I did it as a 10-year-old who hated washing dishes, but it's anywhere between "immature" and "sociopathic" when you're supposedly in a committed partnership with someone. And I definitely think society gives men a pass for doing it subconsciously: I think of all the wedding reception speeches I've heard, and all the jokes that follow the format of "just remember, [Bride] is always right and you're a big dumb stupid! Do everything she says!" While on the surface it might seem like this is portraying the woman in a positive light, it's also putting all of the responsibility on her shoulders as well - and strangely, the jokes only ever seem to apply to decisions about chores and housekeeping...

Sorry for rambling. I have strong feelings about this one! Once you notice it, you notice it everywhere.


I can only make wild guesses, but sometimes I wonder if Haley-Elan is a deliberate inversion of "Women have the..." above. If so, I'm certain it comes from a good-hearted place. For me personally the trope is too squicky to redeem, but no one is a worse person for feeling otherwise - just in a different place than I am.

My guess is that Elan simply started out as a parody of bards: goofy, useless, regularly getting the party into more trouble than out of trouble. I think the relationship thing wasn't planned out in any particular way, except that Elan is optimistic and trusting, and Haley is cynical and slow to trust. Neither of those are based on intelligence, so Haley could have been pessimistic and less savvy while Elan was optimistic and more savvy, but that would've been both yikes-y and also boring.

I also don't think this part was intentional, but I do find it amusing how Elan is basically Haley's Manic Pixie Dream Bard. It does transcend the trope because they both have goals and agency and neither one's arc is subsumed for the other's benefit, but the dynamic is most definitely at play :smallbiggrin:

[Liquor Box]

While on the surface it might seem like this is portraying the woman in a positive light, it's also putting all of the responsibility on her shoulders as well -.

The trope page suggests it goes both ways

"There is offense given to both sides— men are told that they're useless and incompetent in the realm of family life and should really just let their wives take charge; women are told that they can't expect their husbands to act like grownups and should just resign themselves to having to carry their husband's weight responsibility-wise and being regarded as the boring killjoy of the family for it."
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ParentingTheHusband


and strangely, the jokes only ever seem to apply to decisions about chores and housekeeping..

That hasn't been the case in this comic strip has it?

[Fyraltari]

The trope page suggests it goes both ways

"There is offense given to both sides— men are told that they're useless and incompetent in the realm of family life and should really just let their wives take charge; women are told that they can't expect their husbands to act like grownups and should just resign themselves to having to carry their husband's weight responsibility-wise and being regarded as the boring killjoy of the family for it."
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ParentingTheHusband

How are "men are told they should let the women handle all the chores" and "women are told they should expect to handle all the chores" it going both ways, exactly?

[bunsen_h]

There's also the similar concept of "weaponized incompetence" -- i.e. people who deliberately fail at tasks to avoid having to do them again. It was cute and clever when I did it as a 10-year-old who hated washing dishes,

Some years back, when I was visiting with an old friend, her 5-year-old daughter kept insisting that she didn't know how to activate an annoying musical toy of hers -- a matter of plugging one of several cards into a matching slot in the toy, or something along those lines. She wanted me to do it for her. But I "couldn't figure it out": kept trying to plug the card into the wrong part of the toy, kept trying to put it in the wrong way round, etc. Finally, disgusted with my "stupidity", she showed me how to do it.

After she no longer had the excuse of needing someone else to run the toy for her, she played it frequently. Her parents would have been entirely within their rights to be annoyed with me. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:


How are "men are told they should let the women handle all the chores" and "women are told they should expect to handle all the chores" it going both ways, exactly?

Well, being told that they're not competent to do the tasks isn't exactly complimentary. I'm not going to say that that's the same kind of offensiveness as the resulting expectation that women should therefore do the work.

[Ruck]

Regarding all the talk about whether the relationship is inappropriate or believable: I still believe it works and isn't toxic. I just wish the language used was different. As Fyraltari put quite eloquently a few pages back, the "female partner as mother-figure" is a real problem in both fiction and a lot of real-life attitudes: I have witnessed multiple new mothers in my circle subjected (without irony) to variations of the 'joke', "...well, now you have two babies in the house to look after!" That doesn't mean anyone who made those comments is a misogynist: it's just a big ugly assumption about how women are expected to relate to men, and I like to imagine a world where we don't treat it like it's so obvious and expected that you can make jokes about it.

I'm pretty vocal about my distaste for the "marriage is when a woman babysits a stupid oaf of a man and they hate each other" trope, but I don't think it really applies here. Elan doesn't fit the stereotype of the boorish oaf who wants to be left alone and feels trapped in his relationship. He's sincere, empathetic, cares a great deal, and greatly respects Haley. He's just also childlike and easily distracted.


Getting back away from IQ tests (went to Caltech, we all thought IQ tests - and Mensa - were stupid).

Haley-Elan relationship.

1. 10s date 10s. Two highest charisma characters in the party, of an attracting gender, would likely notice and be attracted by each other and ALSO not assume the other is "out of their league".

2. Elan makes Haley a better person (getting her to recognize her tendency to distrust, and to try not to take actions that would bother him). Eg talking over her decision to straight up kill Crystal Golem after.

3. Haley makes Elan a better person (getting him to think about consequences of his actions even if narrative logic would have them take that action). For example, he no longer tries to seduce female antagonists without asking her if it is ok, and when one starts a one-sided relationship with him then dies, he tells her about it even though the expectation is he would not, she'd find out anyway and make all the wrong assumptions, there would be dramatic conflict and a resolution.

4. Elan trusts that if Haley tells him to do something, even if he doesn't understand it, she's smart and it is probably a good idea. He trusts that she won't abuse it.

5. Haley trusts that if Elan is disturbed by something she is doing or might do, that could be important. She's also likely to take his narrative logic seriously, if it isn't too silly.

6. Both like each other's authentic selves.

7. They proved compatible when they actually had the sex. Some relationships with a lot of attraction at first that doesn't happen.

8. This relationship has really only existed "in person" for a few weeks (after Roy got Rezzed) and "at all beyond unrequited love" for a few months (just before the big battle in Azure city). They aren't going to act like a married couple of 30 years with that "married telepathy", finishing each other's sentences or knowing what they like and dislike so well that they can anticipate a need for "alone time" or a desire for company or what the "we have to talk" kind of situation is serious and you need to stop whatever you are doing and pay total attention.

Basically that strip to me was #4. Since Elan wanted to do it anyway he responded with enthusiasm. When he did, Haley realized potential consequences and also she left her bow behind, and added more instructions. She did them in the firm "pay attention to this" voice so Elan won't forget while having fun and will actually take what she's saying seriously. She might have learned Elan doesn't pay attention to much, so she has to use a "Mom Voice" on him, perhaps his actual mother used similar tone and posture when he was about to stick his hand in the fire because it was pretty or seduce somebody's wife by accident because he was so hot and charming.

From the outside, might look odd. From the inside, it's how their relationship work. As a veteran of a 32 year relationship with the woman who is now my wife, we have a lot of ways of communicating, hard earned from earlier misunderstandings. Took us a year to actually act on our attraction to each other, disentangling from other relationships and I guarantee you that we made more mistakes communicating in that first year of being an "official couple" than Haley or Elan are doing. Indeed, they're doing very well for a relationship that is so young in-universe, as opposed to a decade or so old in our time.

Good post. You highlighted some of the ways their relationship works that I'd been thinking about but haven't had time to write out.

[arimareiji]

My guess is that Elan simply started out as a parody of bards: goofy, useless, regularly getting the party into more trouble than out of trouble. I think the relationship thing wasn't planned out in any particular way, except that Elan is optimistic and trusting, and Haley is cynical and slow to trust. Neither of those are based on intelligence, so Haley could have been pessimistic and less savvy while Elan was optimistic and more savvy, but that would've been both yikes-y and also boring.
On re-examination, that fits a lot better than my hypothesis wrt the early strips. And as far as I can tell the word "spoon" (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/You_spoony_bard!) was first used in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) by the bard (as part of a dumb joke, no less). (^_~)


I also don't think this part was intentional, but I do find it amusing how Elan is basically Haley's Manic Pixie Dream Bard. It does transcend the trope because they both have goals and agency and neither one's arc is subsumed for the other's benefit, but the dynamic is most definitely at play :smallbiggrin:
Thank you for saying out loud what I was thinking but afraid to, so now I might as well go all the way with what really cheeses me off about how I perceive the pseudo-parent lover trope gets applied: At least from what I've seen, when it comes to males it leans heavily toward "The responsible one who makes more money therefore he should be coddled like a spoiled child at home". And when it comes to females, it leans heavily toward MPDG and "Dumb as a brick; she needs a caretaker because her worth comes from cheering up a man with parts other than her brain."

To be absolutely clear for the sake of anyone who might be passing by and mishear me, I do not believe the Giant simply mirror-imaged the female version onto Elan. Like you said, it transcends the trope quite well - Elan doesn't exist only to bring joy back into Haley's life with little Banjo and then she moves on, they both have their own stories rather than him being naught but the muse for hers, et al. But he does fit enough elements of the trope that I can find some perverse amusement in it (although he's sand in my shorts, and if I think about it too much I start getting squicked again). (^_~)b

[Liquor Box]

How are "men are told they should let the women handle all the chores" and "women are told they should expect to handle all the chores" it going both ways, exactly?

It goes both ways in that the trope can be read as having negative implications for both genders, not that negative implication for each is exactly the same. Men are portrayed as incapable and stupid (in a way that goes well beyond chores, which Elan stands as an example of), which to me seems to be a negative critique. Women are portrayed as competent, but this normalises the idea that women for carrying an uneven share of the responsibility in the relationship (including chores).

[a_flemish_guy]

also while it sounds snarky "unstructured alliance-strengthening exercise" is what elan's best used for right now
while serini and the order have put aside their differences for now it's still on shaky ground, getting sunny to like them (or at least elan) is the best hook they have on her at the moment to ensure their alliance keeps going should things go sideways

[Seward]

This tends to be true. And if Hayley is not a 10 herself (a few references suggest that she probably isn't), people who are not 10 themselves often want to date 10s.

Elan and Samantha (the sorcerer-bandit) are characters that started with 18 charisma and are investing statbumps and magic items into having higher charisma. At the time Haley probably had no charisma item or maybe a +2 cloak, where Samantha (being level 12 with maximized fireball) had 3 statbumps in charisma and probably a +4 cloak, so she had 24-25 charisma.

Elan at that time had similar starting cha, 2 statbumps in charisma and likely a +2 cloak, so 22ish Cha. Compared to Samantha, Haley's 16ish charisma wasn't doing well, and she probably had not invested in many social skills beyond bluff given her mistrustful nature and somewhat abrasive personality.

Assume Elan got Samantha's cloak after they defeated her and passed down his lesser cloak of Charisma to Haley. Today, Elan is probably as hot as Samantha was but unlike her, he has a bunch of social skills to be more charming as he's a face-style bard. When Haley started dating him, she's got a base charisma of 18 but all those rogue skill points (and didn't keep up with trapfinding). By level 16 she's probably stepped up her social game and is pretty close to Elan in social skills that matter to her (bluff still, but diplomacy as well, that's the bargaining skill she used in tinkertown. Sense motive a bit because it boost diplomacy, and Elan doesn't have that, probably some gather information too).

To any of normal person Haley is "TV attractive" and seems considerably more attractive when she interacts with you. She's out of just about anybody's league. Elan's even hotter, he's "considered hot even for movie star" attractive and also becomes more attractive when he actually uses his seduction skills. But to most mortals, both are easily "10s". Haley to her credit wasn't intimidated by his looks, even in the beginning. Her worries were about how much better a person he was than her, and giving trust to anybody. She only got defensive about her appearance when somebody objectively much hotter slagged her, both Samantha and Sabine (who is a primal being of sex appeal, a generic succubi has 26 charisma and all the right skills, and Sabine is likely advanced from there) and seemed to be hitting on her crush (or her crush seducing them).

[brian 333]

On Intelligence and IQ:

Gygax certainly intended Int to equate to IQ, and said as much in the 1st ed AD&D DMG. Adventurers, being above average, had an above 10 average IQ, with 10 being equal to IQ 100.

Okay, the rest is personal anecdote and there is no reason to read further.

Tests for IQ tend to do much better at testing for language skills than intelligence. Logic is also well represented in IQ tests, but many geniuses defy logic, and therefore aren't represented in such tests.

Example: a friend from Jr. High School was not very good in school, had a hard time with math, and dropped out in the 8th grade. He can play any stringed musical instrument, can watch performers play and within minutes duplicate their music, and play directly from sheet music. He is now a joiner, (carpenter for ships,) who calculates curves with a tape measure and pencil, and he speaks English, Vietnamese, Spanish, and the last time we spoke on the subject, was learning Portuguese. (He learned these languages by working with people who spoke them.)

Intelligent? I tried, in Jr. High to teach him why if A+B=C, then C-A=B and C-B=A. I still cannot speak a second language. Being able to do word problems in logic isn't a good measure of intelligence.

Then there is a severely overlooked aspect of the truly intelligent: motivation. School was dull for me. The teachers wondered how a kid could ace tests, could test out at the level of high school graduates from 6th grade on the standardized tests, and who read every textbook before week nine, but otherwise never studied.

I was tested, of course. It didn't matter that I was placed in the first GT program in my region, I was bored. And of course, everyone focused on my potential: what I could do if I just tried...

Almost 60 years later I can see things that were overlooked by everyone:

From first grade on I did my older brother's homework so he could go play sports. He was a gifted athlete. I had already done sixth grade by the time I got there. I wasn't smarter than anyone else, I was two grades ahead of them.

Taking tests was easy for me because I had an uncanny memory. A lot of what I remembered didn't make sense, but I remembered and could regurgitate the lesson on command. GT bored me because it didn't provide anything new. It was more of the same. Memorize this, memorize that. Yay.

But the thing everyone missed, and fortunately I didn't, was that all of my 'potential' was what they dreamed of doing. What they wanted, expected, or wished for had virtually zero interest for me. What I wanted was to be a tourist. I found jobs that paid me to travel, and have never, since the age of sixteen, lived in one place for more than four years. I've seen and done amazing things. My friends don't believe half my stories, and that's okay. They have different world views.

"Why aren't you rich?" is an often asked question. Well, I never tried to be. All I ever wanted was enough money to pay for my next adventure. And that is the big issue with income as a metric for determining IQ: it only works if the person is motivated by money. For many intelligent people who see money as a tool rather than as a goal, accumulating large sums of it takes time away from what they really want to do, like paint, or write, or perfect your swan dive from 216 different bridges and cliffs around the country. (That last one was me, by the way.)

IQ is a horrible measure of intelligence. It measures memory to some degree, language skills, and to some degree language-based logic, all useful in corporate hirarchies, but can an IQ test find the next Newton?

Maybe I'm biased, but many of my favorite historical figures were poor students: Einstein, Edison, and Rodin come to mind. No IQ test would have pegged them as anything but mediocre.

[DaOldeWolf]

On Intelligence and IQ:

Gygax certainly intended Int to equate to IQ, and said as much in the 1st ed AD&D DMG. Adventurers, being above average, had an above 10 average IQ, with 10 being equal to IQ 100.

Okay, the rest is personal anecdote and there is no reason to read further.

Tests for IQ tend to do much better at testing for language skills than intelligence. Logic is also well represented in IQ tests, but many geniuses defy logic, and therefore aren't represented in such tests.

Example: a friend from Jr. High School was not very good in school, had a hard time with math, and dropped out in the 8th grade. He can play any stringed musical instrument, can watch performers play and within minutes duplicate their music, and play directly from sheet music. He is now a joiner, (carpenter for ships,) who calculates curves with a tape measure and pencil, and he speaks English, Vietnamese, Spanish, and the last time we spoke on the subject, was learning Portuguese. (He learned these languages by working with people who spoke them.)

Intelligent? I tried, in Jr. High to teach him why if A+B=C, then C-A=B and C-B=A. I still cannot speak a second language. Being able to do word problems in logic isn't a good measure of intelligence.

Then there is a severely overlooked aspect of the truly intelligent: motivation. School was dull for me. The teachers wondered how a kid could ace tests, could test out at the level of high school graduates from 6th grade on the standardized tests, and who read every textbook before week nine, but otherwise never studied.

I was tested, of course. It didn't matter that I was placed in the first GT program in my region, I was bored. And of course, everyone focused on my potential: what I could do if I just tried...

Almost 60 years later I can see things that were overlooked by everyone:

From first grade on I did my older brother's homework so he could go play sports. He was a gifted athlete. I had already done sixth grade by the time I got there. I wasn't smarter than anyone else, I was two grades ahead of them.

Taking tests was easy for me because I had an uncanny memory. A lot of what I remembered didn't make sense, but I remembered and could regurgitate the lesson on command. GT bored me because it didn't provide anything new. It was more of the same. Memorize this, memorize that. Yay.

But the thing everyone missed, and fortunately I didn't, was that all of my 'potential' was what they dreamed of doing. What they wanted, expected, or wished for had virtually zero interest for me. What I wanted was to be a tourist. I found jobs that paid me to travel, and have never, since the age of sixteen, lived in one place for more than four years. I've seen and done amazing things. My friends don't believe half my stories, and that's okay. They have different world views.

"Why aren't you rich?" is an often asked question. Well, I never tried to be. All I ever wanted was enough money to pay for my next adventure. And that is the big issue with income as a metric for determining IQ: it only works if the person is motivated by money. For many intelligent people who see money as a tool rather than as a goal, accumulating large sums of it takes time away from what they really want to do, like paint, or write, or perfect your swan dive from 216 different bridges and cliffs around the country. (That last one was me, by the way.)

IQ is a horrible measure of intelligence. It measures memory to some degree, language skills, and to some degree language-based logic, all useful in corporate hirarchies, but can an IQ test find the next Newton?

Maybe I'm biased, but many of my favorite historical figures were poor students: Einstein, Edison, and Rodin come to mind. No IQ test would have pegged them as anything but mediocre.

Wow, that actually makes me feel better about myself. I know I had nothing to do with the matter but its nice to hear of someone else who has a similar situation in life to mine.

Thanks for the sharing!

[Ionathus]

That hasn't been the case in this comic strip has it?


I'm pretty vocal about my distaste for the "marriage is when a woman babysits a stupid oaf of a man and they hate each other" trope, but I don't think it really applies here. Elan doesn't fit the stereotype of the boorish oaf who wants to be left alone and feels trapped in his relationship. He's sincere, empathetic, cares a great deal, and greatly respects Haley. He's just also childlike and easily distracted.

Nope! Like I said, I tend to ramble -- my most recent posts are only barely related to the Haley-Elan dynamic, and I definitely don't think the comic has done anything wrong or fallen into these sexist tropes. Just consider my last 5ish posts to be a long-winded explanation of a larger gender issue I have with modern fiction, and that every so often one of the jokes in Haley & Elan's relationship gives me a whiff of that bigger issue despite otherwise being a well-written and affirming fictional relationship.

I'm only mentioning it because others have mentioned it, and it had been nagging at me since the way they talked in panel 2 of #1238. It's a tiny thing, but I noticed it and so did others, so I wanted to mention it to hear what other people thought. Sometimes voicing a minor opinion like this can come across like a condemnation, or a call to action. But I really did just mean it as a minor observation.

And then somebody said this was "obsessing over minor details" and "reading too much into it", so I wanted to explain my point of view that, yeah, I do think it's important in the grand scheme to notice this stuff. Bringing up the Bechdel Test again: understanding that Lord of the Rings does not "pass" the test does not mean you have to condemn Lord of the Rings.

[Liquor Box]

Elan and Samantha (the sorcerer-bandit) are characters that started with 18 charisma and are investing statbumps and magic items into having higher charisma. At the time Haley probably had no charisma item or maybe a +2 cloak, where Samantha (being level 12 with maximized fireball) had 3 statbumps in charisma and probably a +4 cloak, so she had 24-25 charisma.

Elan at that time had similar starting cha, 2 statbumps in charisma and likely a +2 cloak, so 22ish Cha. Compared to Samantha, Haley's 16ish charisma wasn't doing well, and she probably had not invested in many social skills beyond bluff given her mistrustful nature and somewhat abrasive personality.

Assume Elan got Samantha's cloak after they defeated her and passed down his lesser cloak of Charisma to Haley. Today, Elan is probably as hot as Samantha was but unlike her, he has a bunch of social skills to be more charming as he's a face-style bard. When Haley started dating him, she's got a base charisma of 18 but all those rogue skill points (and didn't keep up with trapfinding). By level 16 she's probably stepped up her social game and is pretty close to Elan in social skills that matter to her (bluff still, but diplomacy as well, that's the bargaining skill she used in tinkertown. Sense motive a bit because it boost diplomacy, and Elan doesn't have that, probably some gather information too).

To any of normal person Haley is "TV attractive" and seems considerably more attractive when she interacts with you. She's out of just about anybody's league. Elan's even hotter, he's "considered hot even for movie star" attractive and also becomes more attractive when he actually uses his seduction skills. But to most mortals, both are easily "10s". Haley to her credit wasn't intimidated by his looks, even in the beginning. Her worries were about how much better a person he was than her, and giving trust to anybody. She only got defensive about her appearance when somebody objectively much hotter slagged her, both Samantha and Sabine (who is a primal being of sex appeal, a generic succubi has 26 charisma and all the right skills, and Sabine is likely advanced from there) and seemed to be hitting on her crush (or her crush seducing them).

I must admit I'm not seeing any reason there why Hayley's base Charisma would have increased beyond you 16ish estimate? You aren't proposing that Hayley, a rogue, invested level up increases to charisma are you? Admittedly I dodn't consider items, and it is possible that Hayley has got one which may have boosted her charisma.

I was thinking about physical attractiveness, and as you reference, she was implied to be less attractive than Samantha. There was also a scene where Hayley's clothes were too big for Roy's girlfriend, and Hayley seemed displeased by that (not commenting personally on whether being less thin is less attractive, but the scene implied Hayley thought so).

On the other hand the comic has implied on various occasions that she is attractive. So the only conclusion I think we can reach is that she is attractive, but less attractive than the best looking people going around. I'm not sure why you conclude that she is TV attractive and out of just about everyone's league? I suppose there's no reason to think she can't be, and if you see her like that, all good, but I'm not sure the comic guides us that way.

[Fyraltari]

It goes both ways in that the trope can be read as having negative implications for both genders, not that negative implication for each is exactly the same. Men are portrayed as incapable and stupid (in a way that goes well beyond chores, which Elan stands as an example of), which to me seems to be a negative critique. Women are portrayed as competent, but this normalises the idea that women for carrying an uneven share of the responsibility in the relationship (including chores).

Oh, okay. I think that waht confused me was that it seemed to me that everyone already agreed on that and that "it goes both way" seemed to imply that the sterotypes was as often flipped as not and with the same connotations (which is false). My bad, carry on.

[dancrilis]

Gygax certainly intended Int to equate to IQ, and said as much in the 1st ed AD&D DMG.


I am not sure about this (depending how you are using the word equate):


Intelligence: The intelligence rating roughly corresponds to our modern "IQ" Scores. However, it assumes mnemonic, reasoning, and learning ability skills in additional areas outside the written word.


They don't really (at least to my memory) detail how rough it is, and I would read it more as 'some people use IQ to tell how intelligent someone is, in DnD they can use Intelligent score to determine this - but the Intelligent score is better then the IQ score as it represents more things'.

[Seward]

I must admit I'm not seeing any reason there why Hayley's base Charisma would have increased beyond you 16ish estimate?

Because she is a level 16 rogue who uses social skills who travels with a bard who at some point had a +2 cloak of charisma because of course he did, who defeated a 12th level sorceress (or more) who would have routinely had a +4 cloak of charisma.

Which would have gone to Elan.

Who else in the party has a use for a +2 charisma item?

Honestly they should both have +6 cloaks by now, but Giant doesn't really show magic item growth unless it is plot important, and OOTS usually seems behind (witness Belkar just now upgrading to a +3 resistance vest, an item that most adventurers would have had 5 levels ago. But then nobody makes a save in OOTS unless it is plot appropriate either, so I guess they know that and don't bother). Given how Belkar described tossing 1 rings of protection in the trash back in Azure city though, they're getting more than Elan's boots of elvenkind, Roy's sword, Haley's bow (she already had the boots of haste), Durkon's Thor-granted weapons (he also got a whole suit of level appropriate armor that was barely mentioned), Tarquin's dagger, Blackwing's bauble and Belkar's ring of feather fall/clasp of prot evil.

Rich doesn't mention the boring stat boosters and resistance items that everybody routinely gets because they're boring, beyond Roy getting a belt of strength because he wanted to make jokes about how strong at 15th level fighter really is at level 15 later.

As for Haley being TV attractive - as noted both Elan and Samantha back in the day are pushing "succubus-level-attractive". Lets put them aside. Haley even without magic items is in the top 3% of humanity (that's what a 16 on 3d6 means). TV-attractive is something you'll see people achieve on the street who start out with a good body and dress well, have good grooming and have confidence.

Elan (at level 15), Samantha (at 12) and Sabine are either approaching the kind of beauty described as godlike in the old myths and Sabine probably actually achieves it. So they look as good as (think of whatever movie star was considered very hot in their day, say Pierce Brosnan in his prime, or Marylin Monroe by the standards of her time etc) when they're under the care of a makeup artist, hair stylist, wardrobe and under the most flattering light movies can provide, maybe with post production airbrushing. Nobody on a human scale can compete with somebody like that.

But when Haley met Elan, he was a mere "18", maybe 20 if he had a +2 cloak at the time. Human but amazing for a human (Captain Awesome in the TV series Chuck for example), and when not pitted against Sabine or Samantha, Haley was easily the most attractive woman in any scene.

[bunsen_h]

also while it sounds snarky "unstructured alliance-strengthening exercise" is what elan's best used for right now

It would still be useful to run any plans past Elan for his assessment of the "narrative structure" element, which he's far better at than anyone else in the party.


while serini and the order have put aside their differences for now it's still on shaky ground, getting sunny to like them (or at least elan) is the best hook they have on her at the moment to ensure their alliance keeps going should things go sideways

Elan and Sunny are already pretty solid with each other. Given the existing friction between Serini and the Order, a case could be made that it would be useful to have Elan and Sunny present for any negotiations or plans that they're all working on, to smooth over any conflicts. Basically, it comes down to the question of which is more likely to be productive: a meeting where they're present to offer their limited contributions, but bored and distracted; or a meeting without their contributions, while they're off by themselves and potentially getting into trouble. It's not like a modern business meeting where half the participants have nothing to contribute, and could be spending their time more constructively doing their usual tasks.

In the early days, Elan could get into a lot of trouble when he didn't have constructive tasks to focus on (and sometimes even when he did). He's somewhat better now, and has even shown that when he cooked up secret surprise plans, they made a critical difference to the success of an adventure: the arrival of Julio Scoundrél in BRitF. Serini's comments about needing to keep Sunny distracted suggest that he may have a similar talent for getting into trouble. Put two (or more) such people working together, and the potential for chaos grows non-linearly. Elan's role (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) as agent-of-Chaos is pretty solid.

[Quizatzhaderac]

....charisma ... charisma...charisma...charisma...But charisma isn't the same thing as attractiveness, it isn't even a physical stat. Charisma goes up with age, while looks famously do not.

Yes, all else equal the more charismatic person will seem more desirable (if they want to), but things are often very unequal.

Xykon is by far the highest charisma character, but the typical woman is more likely to vomit on seeing him that be attracted.

Belkar explicitly has low charisma, but women seem to find him attractive.

Julia's is implied to be very attractive (by high school standards), but she seems to have trouble getting adults on the outside to school to give her the time of day.

[bunsen_h]

But charisma isn't the same thing as attractiveness, it isn't even a physical stat. Charisma goes up with age, while looks famously do not.
[...]
Julia's is implied to be very attractive (by high school standards), but she seems to have trouble getting adults on the outside to school to give her the time of day.

It's a bit hard to take seriously a woman whose go-to move, the moment she thinks she's not getting the attention she deserves, is to flash her boobs.

[Saint-Just]

But charisma isn't the same thing as attractiveness, it isn't even a physical stat. Charisma goes up with age, while looks famously do not.

Remember: in the Stickyverse your hearing and sight do improve with age (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html).

[Quizatzhaderac]

Remember: in the Stickyverse your hearing and sight do improve with age (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html).Got to be good looking, 'cause they're so hard to see.

[Doctor West]

It continues to amaze me how much trouble some people have with the concept that the Order might not be optimizing* their magic items, much less that some real players don't.

*In which 'optimizing' means 'following popular theorycraft to the letter'