[3.5] Codex + Psychic Reformation = Profit?

[Thurbane]

Hey all, just looking for some feedback on a TO idea I had, for early entry. No idea if this is original, or been done before, but here goes.

My example will centre around Sublime Chord, but it could be for any PrC where skill ranks are the main factor of what level you can enter.

The Codex Anathema (LoM: 37,500gp) does, among other things, give you ranks in certain skills once read. There is no mention if these ranks can exceed the normal cap of level +3, so for this excercise I will assume you can exceed that cap. You gain +5 ranks Knowledge (dungeoneering), +2 ranks Knowledge (arcana) and +2 ranks Knowledge (planes).

Sublime Chord requires Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks and Listen 13 ranks (among other reqs).

Say I'm a character who is 8th level: I meet all other SC reqs, and currently have 11 ranks in Knowledge (arcana). I also have 8 ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering) and 8 ranks in Listen.

I read the Codex, which bumps my Knowledge (arcana) to 13, and my Knowledge (dungeoneering) also to 13.

I then pay someone to use Psychic Reformation on me:


When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) <snip>

The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills.

Lets assume Listen is a class skill for me: can I swap out the 5 ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering) for 5 in Listen, and thus meet the reqs for Sublime Chord?

Issues I forsee:

1. If the Codex lets you exceed skill rank caps.
2. The "standard rules for selecting skills" clause in PR.
3. The elephant in the room: WBL (assume that the DM would allow your fellow characters to loan you the shortfall, I guess?). Also, bear in mind I'm only using SC as an example; theoretically, this tactic could be used to qualify for other, higher level PrCs where WBL would be a non-issue.

Am I crazy? Are there ways to make this work? Has this all been discussed before?

Cheers - T

[smasher0404]

One potential issue I'm seeing (I'm afb so can't confirm this) is that Psychic Reformation specifically deals with skill points while the Codex gives you ranks in a skill. Technically, you never got skill points from the Codex, so the ranks given by the Codex wouldn't be affected by the Psychic Reformation which specifically interacts with skill points.

[Thurbane]

One potential issue I'm seeing (I'm afb so can't confirm this) is that Psychic Reformation specifically deals with skill points while the Codex gives you ranks in a skill. Technically, you never got skill points from the Codex, so the ranks given by the Codex wouldn't be affected by the Psychic Reformation which specifically interacts with skill points.

I thought " skill ranks" and "skill points" were synonymous in 3.5?

I wish the Wizards Archive wasn't down, it's hard to look up the glossary these days...

[Jervis]

Dungeon Magazine has something similar for much cheaper, the so and so’s planar encyclopedia or something like that. It’s not a unique item and can be crafted with variable ranks. the fluff of it implies that you can make versions of it with other skills than knowledge planes.

[Thurbane]

Dungeon Magazine has something similar for much cheaper, the so and so’s planar encyclopedia or something like that. It’s not a unique item and can be crafted with variable ranks. the fluff of it implies that you can make versions of it with other skills than knowledge planes.

Planar Syllabus, from memory. Our group doesn't use much Dragon or Dungeon material, but good to know, thanks for reminding me.

[redking]

You get the skills from the codex. Nowhere does it say these skills can be traded away. As for maximum skill ranks, I would not touch that but rather treat the skills granted by the codex like practiced spellcaster. That is, if you cannot benefit from the skills right now because you will exceed your skill cap, then you get the skills when you level up.

[smasher0404]

I thought " skill ranks" and "skill points" were synonymous in 3.5?

I wish the Wizards Archive wasn't down, it's hard to look up the glossary these days...

They shouldn't technically be the same, because skill points are exchanged for ranks at different rates depending on whether the skill is a class skill or cross-class skill.

EDIT: And skill points are used to buy things that aren't ranks in a skill such as Skill Tricks and languages.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Lets assume Listen is a class skill for me: can I swap out the 5 ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering) for 5 in Listen, and thus meet the reqs for Sublime Chord?


Nope. The standard rules say you can't have skill ranks higher than character level + 3, so an 8th level character can't reform himself 13 ranks in a skill even if you count skill ranks from an item as equivalent to skill points gained from leveling.

As far as i know the only option that lets you exceed that cap is Cityscape's Primary Contact feat.
It only does it for 1 skill though, has Favored as a prereq and can't be taken more than once, so its utility for early entry is rather limited.
You could use it to get into Fochlucan Lyrist a level early (at the cost of two feats), but that's about it. Most other PrC's require high ranks in more than one skill after all.

A Telkiira (LEoF) gives 10 ranks in four skills so if your DM allows you to qualify for PrC's with items that might work too.
It's probably out of WBL for any kind of early entry though with its 100k gp price tag.

[redking]

Probably won't fly at your table but Ravenloft has Laborious Training feat (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Laborious_TraIning).


Raise the max ranks of Intelligence based skills by two.

Otherwise, I don't know of any way to break the character level +3 rule. Even Ravenloft fans look askance at this feat (although, I don't think that it's a big deal).

In fact, it seems like such a minor point that it would probably not be disruptive to a game to brew up feats for the other ability score skills. If someone really wants to blow their feats on something like this, let them. Usually there are secondary prerequisites for PrCs, like archmage requiring 7th-level spells, that makes it of limited utility.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Probably won't fly at your table but Ravenloft has Laborious Training feat (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Laborious_TraIning).

Considering Primary Contact actually sees some play, and it's two feats for 1 rank in one skill, Laborious Training seems vastly overpowered, especially considering how common Knowledge prerequisites are for feats and PrC

[sleepyphoenixx]

Considering Primary Contact actually sees some play, and it's two feats for 1 rank in one skill, Laborious Training seems vastly overpowered, especially considering how common Knowledge prerequisites are for feats and PrC

I don't think i've ever seen anyone take Primary Contact (except for TO purposes to break a skill cap).
It and Favored also offer a bunch of additional benefits over just increasing your skill cap for one skill, so the comparison is rather lopsided.

Laborious Training also doesn't give you extra skill points. If anything raising the max rank of a few skills by two for a feat slot is underpowered if you don't use it to cheese entry requirements.
It's pretty much a worse Precocious Apprentice (which is also used very rarely for anything except cheesing entry requirements, but at least it gives you an extra spell slot).

Being usable for a powerful combo doesn't make a feat overpowered by itself, and a possible untyped +2 bonus to a handful of skills - that still costs you skill points - doesn't exactly break the game by any reasonable standard.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Being usable for a powerful combo doesn't make a feat overpowered by itself, and a possible untyped +2 bonus to a handful of skills - that still costs you skill points - doesn't exactly break the game by any reasonable standard.

Oh‚ I completely agree with that. I was only thinking about cheating entry requirements. Because that's the one thing this feat does that is unique‚ compared to the plethora of feats that give a +2 bonus on two or more skills. I wouldn't have called it overpowered if it was strictly a "+2 to all Int skills". Pretty strong‚ but wouldn't break anything. It's just that when something does something no other thing does in the game‚ people are going to use it to their advantage. And since skill requirements are so omnipresent‚ people are going to use it even at lowish levels of optimisation if it occurs to them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Oh‚ I completely agree with that. I was only thinking about cheating entry requirements. Because that's the one thing this feat does that is unique‚ compared to the plethora of feats that give a +2 bonus on two or more skills. I wouldn't have called it overpowered if it was strictly a "+2 to all Int skills". Pretty strong‚ but wouldn't break anything. It's just that when something does something no other thing does in the game‚ people are going to use it to their advantage. And since skill requirements are so omnipresent‚ people are going to use it even at lowish levels of optimisation if it occurs to them.
In theory anyway.
Since it requires feats and most PrC's have other requirements - or require non-int skills - that you also need to cheese for early entry - which usually also requires feats, particularly for spellcasting requirements - the number of PrCs you can actually enter early with that is vanishingly small.

[Thurbane]

So, third party feats aside for a moment, general consensus is the method in my OP doesn't work, due to the restrictions of PR.

Is there another method, retraining rules etc. that could get it to work?

[Jervis]

So, third party feats aside for a moment, general consensus is the method in my OP doesn't work, due to the restrictions of PR.

Is there another method, retraining rules etc. that could get it to work?

I suppose there’s always gaining racial hit die and then getting negative levels. IIRC I once used a loop with Awaken, RHD removal, and Polymorph(ish) spells to get arbitrary charisma on a Sha’ir once. Also 18 Int by virtue of rerollint it so many times. Point is you can gain RHD then psychic reformation skill points before scrubbing it off at a succubus run massage parlor.

[redking]

Is there another method, retraining rules etc. that could get it to work?

Maybe, depending on how you deal with retraining. A lot of people believe that you can retraining to produce a build that is invalid (normally) but retraining allows it. Like entering a PrC at 2nd level, for example. My reading of retraining is that the building but be legal for every level that you are retraining.