Implications of nerfing teleport

[redking]

Teleport seems to be one of the main spells that causes difficulty for DMs. What would be the implications of rolling the effects of teleport into plane shift, and making it a 9th level spell?

There are plenty of other means of transportation, like flying. Any thoughts?

[Biggus]

Are you talking about removing all forms of teleportation, or just the spells teleport and greater teleport?

[redking]

Are you talking about removing all forms of teleportation, or just the spells teleport and greater teleport?

Just those, not the short distance ones. I'm mostly talking about scry and die tactics, I guess.

[Jack_Simth]

Just those, not the short distance ones. I'm mostly talking about scry and die tactics, I guess.

There's also things like Shadow Walk, Tree Stride, and others. There's a lot to trim.

[Zanos]

The easiest thing to do would be to just remove the ability for scrying to count as familiarity with a location for teleporting to it.

But scry and die isn't a big deal. Lead isn't that expensive and if your enemies include 9th level wizards you can just line areas where you'd be vulnerable with it.


There's also things like Shadow Walk, Tree Stride, and others. There's a lot to trim.
None of those spells are precise enough to enable ambushes using them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Just those, not the short distance ones. I'm mostly talking about scry and die tactics, I guess.

Imo you can deal with scry & die within the existing rules easily enough. There are plenty of ways to block either scrying or teleportation.

Anything capable of challenging a party of 9th+ level with access to enough spellcasting for scry & die is going to have magic of its own anyway just to be a viable threat.
And at that level pretty much anything of plot importance can justify a permanent Private Sanctum or Forbiddance at least.
Use Greater Anticipate Teleport, Screen, Scry Trap and Psychic Poison if you want to be nasty.

Point being that if you get your plots stomped by teleport you should try to adjust your encounter design first, not jump straight to banning teleport.

On the other hand not having teleport mostly makes shopping harder and increases travel time, but it doesn't have that big an impact on actual gameplay (unless scry & die is you main tactic at least).
If you do decide to do it removing long-distance teleports is unlikely to break anything.

[Telonius]

If all you're trying to do is say "no" to scry and die, there are probably less drastic things you could do to fix it. Here are two things that could go a long way to fixing the issue:

- Give it a Focus component of a map of the location in question. You need to know where you're aiming, not just "next to the BBEG."
- Specify that Scrying does not count as "currently see it" for the purposes of Teleport. "Currently see it" would be a person down at the bottom of a mountain seeing the temple up on top of it; or going from one side of the Gorge of Eternal Peril to the other.

I think it would be fine for Greater Scrying to be able to aim the teleport. By that point (7th-level spells), countermeasures for Scry and Die should be up and running if they need to be (False Vision, Nondetection; Screen and Mind Blank are only one spell level away at most, at 8th).

[liquidformat]

I believe you can actually play around with the familiarity and other rules to do a good job at preventing a lot of teleport abuse.

I add the dazed effect for one round to normal teleport, I increased the chance of mishap for everything except for Very familiar and very familiar can only be used for something like your private lab. I also added in a population chart that increases your chance of mishap. For example you should have a much higher chance of mishap if you teleport into the square of a metropolis, compared to the outskirts of a town compared to a spot in your lab you use for teleporting to. I also keep the population mishap chart for greater teleport.

[KoDT69]

I never had an issue with scry and die. I don't have the bad guys do it, and in return never had a player even consider trying it. Just seems like one of those things that shouldn't work or else every evil wizard BBEG would be remotely picking off lower level adventurers all day long making sure his power could never be challenged. Doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the game at all.

As far as teleportation spells and plane shift, etc. There is no reason to need those available all the time. It can be much more fun if say the players discover a hidden gate/portal to an alternate plane. It's also not like flight and other fast travel methods. No reason to let them be spoiled with instant travel all the time. Another thing about the familiarity, I'd never allow scrying to count as familiarity. I can show you a picture of my hometown, but that doesn't mean you're familiar with it! No, you had to be there more than just passing through without stopping. Flying over also doesn't count. Now the little tavern in Daggerdale you had dinner at and met an NPC, sure that would be just fine.

There can even be in world justification for the higher level 5+ or whatever spells not working. Let's say the god with the Travel portfolio is under attack by an evil deity attempting to take control of that portfolio, so the Travel god requests minor aid from the god with the Magic portfolio to shut them spells down because they are tainted by the evil deity. It can be a passive world lore thing, or an active high level quest goal to undo the evil taint thing and put the deities back in their respective corners, restoring travel magic (while sneakily being the end of the campaign where the characters will be retired anyway, therefore never actually dealing with the teleportation issues lolz).

[Biggus]

Just those, not the short distance ones.

One change would be the availability of rare items. As it is, any level 9+ wizard can just teleport to a metropolis if they need to buy something not available locally, at most having to spend a few hours searching the shops there to find it. Without long-range teleportation it could take weeks to get your hands on it in some cases, which in an adventure with any time-pressure would often simply mean you couldn't get it at all.

[Fizban]

The main problem with the removal/delay of Teleport is that it makes it harder to run away, which the PCs are expected to be able to do, and probably do a lot more often then any of the more visibly problematic Scry-n-Die or dungeon bypass problems (which are less problematic than they appear anyway). At high levels at least two standard party members, if not the entire team via magic items, can Teleport. Depending on the initiative order and who is or isn't stuck in a BFC (or indeed in response to getting stuck), the entire team can be evacuated before the enemy can capitalize and cause fatalities or TPK. High level enemies are allowed to have abilities which can nearly wipe out the entire party in a single round, because the entire party can be whisked away to safety in a single round- or if you prefer, the party's ability to Teleport necessitates such abilities, but either way they're there.

Without Teleport, Schrodinger's Wizard no longer has the actual ability to leave and come back prepared tomorrow. The Cleric can't just fix whatever problem after preparing spells tomorrow because Dave is paralyzed/petrified/dead right now and you need him to have a fighting chance at escape. It takes time to stuff bodies and petrified statues into bags of holding and then run or fly away, while many high level foes have medium-long range AoE effects that can easily mop up PCs that are trying to flee by non-Teleport means- assuming it wasn't in fact a melee foe who broke through and is standing right next to you right now that you need to run from. A game predicated on the ability to defeat otherwise superior foes through good preparation, minus the ability to flee said foes, means that the first time the party fails to be fully and accurately prepared for an unexpected enemy, they fail.

If you remove Teleport and similar spells, at high levels instead of merely "not covering all dungeons with anti-teleport effects," you need to somehow keep making dungeons that function like low-level dungeons, where the PCs can fight their way in and retreat on foot to come back to a dungeon that's mostly the same. But filled with enemies that are not like low level enemies, for fighting PCs that are not like low level PCs, where magic can dramatically reshape the dungeon and make retreat essentially impossible, where a single action can make the difference between an ordered retreat and a TPK. Easier to just not play at levels where the system expects Teleport.


As for Scry-n-Die, I find the first and most important fix is to read the Initiative rules and notice that creatures teleporting in do not get a surprise round- not without engineering very specific conditions I never hear anyone mention. So those teleporting in are at the whims of initiative just like everyone else, and without ridiculous OP initiative bonuses they're eventually going to lose a set of rolls and find themselves on the end of a full round of enemy actions, even without implementing all the magical and non-magical countermeasures available. After that, there's actually rolling the "seen once" familiarity you get for having only seen a place once, if the 10' radius of Scrying is even enough for that, or just making Teleport unable to take you anywhere you haven't been personally (a very common trope), or all the way to the 5e version that can only take you to pre-established landing pads that take more than 3 months to create- or having all PC-style teleports (so, not including monster self-only SLAs) give people at the arrival point 1 or more rounds of obvious warning (essentially the effect of Anticipate Teleport but as a natural drawback of Teleporting), or the aforementioned 1 round of lost action (not Daze, as a status effect that can be mitigated), or both, etc.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you have trouble with scry & die tactics i suggest a look at Dragon Compendium. It has a bunch of anti-scrying items like the Deathglance Locket, Circlet of Convocation and Amulet of Deception.


I never had an issue with scry and die. I don't have the bad guys do it, and in return never had a player even consider trying it. Just seems like one of those things that shouldn't work or else every evil wizard BBEG would be remotely picking off lower level adventurers all day long making sure his power could never be challenged. Doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the game at all.

That's because scry & die isn't as easy as people make it sound.

First of all you need to have some idea who you're even scrying for. "The strongest wizard in Munchkinland" or "whoever killed my minions" are not valid targeting data for Scrying.
You can use other divinations to get there, but the less you know the more and higher level ones you'll need.
Depending on what you want to know you'll also need several different divinations from different class lists. And likely more than one for some of them.

Then you need the subject to fail his save (on your 1 hour casting time spell), not notice your scrying sensor, not have any of the dozens of available countermeasures to scrying and to be in a situation where you actually want to attack. If he's wearing a Deathglance Locket and cast Scry Trap chances are that most 9th level wizards will die at this step.
Then you need to buff up, possible summon some cannon fodder and get ready. You've probably used most of your spells for the day now.
Then you need to teleport, hoping that the enemy isn't in an area of Forbiddance or other teleport blockers, that your Teleport doesn't dump you some random distance away from your target and that he doesn't have any divination-warded traps or allies that you don't know about because scrying didn't show them.

If you manage all of those and your enemy doesn't have Anticipate Teleportation up, congratulations, you get a surprise round and are presumably fighting an unprepared enemy while fully buffed.
Or you just jumped into a trap, delivering yourself to your enemy on a silver platter. No way to know, you'll find out when you get there.

Most of the time you waste a lot of spell slots and hours of your time only to end up somewhere in the wilderness, your target made his save against scrying forcing you to wait 24 hours, you need to be raised because people don't like being spied on and so on.

Greater Teleport and Greater Scrying reduce some of those issues, but by the time you get them there are also more counters to both.

In other words scry & die tactics are only really useful against enemies you don't need them for.
They're dangerous if the DM doesn't know the counters, but otherwise if your enemies are in any way worth all that effort the chances of actually succeeding are pretty low.



As for Scry-n-Die, I find the first and most important fix is to read the Initiative rules and notice that creatures teleporting in do not get a surprise round- not without engineering very specific conditions I never hear anyone mention. So those teleporting in are at the whims of initiative just like everyone else, and without ridiculous OP initiative bonuses they're eventually going to lose a set of rolls and find themselves on the end of a full round of enemy actions,
You're going to have to explain which part of the initiative rules you're refering to, because i see nothing of the sort.
The rules about determining awareness make it pretty clear that (knowingly) teleporting in on an unaware opponent will always be a surprise round.


If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative.

If an enemy isn't expecting you to teleport in they're not aware of you when combat begins (the moment you teleport in) - they're surprised.
If you know you're going to teleport to kill those guys in the scrying mirror you're aware of them, so you're not surprised.

That interpretation also works with this rule in the Rules Compendium (RC p.71):

One Side Aware
In this case, the DM determines how much time the aware
side has before the unaware side can react. Sometimes, the
unaware side has no time to do anything before the aware
side gets a chance to act. The aware side gets a surprise
round. After that, both sides make initiative checks to
determine the order in which the combatants act. Other
times, the aware side has a few rounds to prepare. The
DM tracks time in rounds at this point to determine how
much the aware combatants can accomplish. Once the
two sides can interact, the aware combatants receive a
surprise round.

You can counter that with Anticipate Teleportation of course but if the target doesn't know the teleport is coming they should always be surprised.

[ciopo]

As for Scry-n-Die, I find the first and most important fix is to read the Initiative rules and notice that creatures teleporting in do not get a surprise round- not without engineering very specific conditions I never hear anyone mention.
Why do creatures teleporting in not get a surprise round? I've reread initiative and I don't see whwt you might be thinking of. Only thing I can think of is that maybe "everyone is unaware of every opponent" but that doesn't feel right

[Fizban]

You're going to have to explain which part of the initiative rules you're refering to, because i see nothing of the sort.

Why do creatures teleporting in not get a surprise round? I've reread initiative and I don't see whwt you might be thinking of. Only thing I can think of is that maybe "everyone is unaware of every opponent" but that doesn't feel right
I figured someone would ask, so I already searched up the breakdown:


This is most easily covered by: both sides are aware at the same time, example (both aware but cannot act immediately), which is just initiative for both sides as soon as they can interact with each other. Casting teleport is equivalent to opening the door: note that in the example the fighter opens the door outside of initiative, then it is rolled for everyone.

Breaking it down more specifically: When you teleport in, the people at your destination suddenly become aware of you. When you teleport to somewhere you can't see, you suddenly become aware of everything at that location. Both parties are suddenly aware, initiative is rolled, no surprise rounds, everyone is flat-footed until they act.

What happens when you teleport to somewhere you can see? It takes an action to teleport, so you can't cast it before rolling initiative. You get a surprise round, roll initiative, and use the standard action to cast teleport landing with your first turn completed so you're not flat-footed. Those at the destination then roll their initiative in as normal, possibly acting before you even though you're not flat-footed.
-People you're bringing with you cannot delay their turns in the surprise round until after the teleport since they must roll initiative when they arrive, unless they can also see where you're teleporting in which case they can and that's gonna suck about as hard as actually walking into an ambush. But if the teleporter rolls low initiative then the passengers will have to delay to match, meaning the defenders have a higher chance of going first after the surprise round is finished.

Unless the defenders have Anticipate Teleportation up (and your landing zone was in the area), in which case the defenders get a warning and three rounds of actions. Then the teleporter and passengers arrive, suddenly becoming aware of the situation, as even if they'd been scrying that was three rounds ago. The defenders are unable to actually sense the teleporters until they arrive and thus also become suddenly aware of their foe. Both sides are suddenly aware, roll initiative as normal.

Note that in no situation does the caster manage to get direct advantage other than avoiding flat-footedness: only the edge case where a group teleport is carrying passengers who can also see the target will allow the passengers, and only them, to get a surprise round, and it's all fouled by landing in Anticipate Teleportation.

For the situation at hand: it sounds like the DM teleported while viewing the party. They should have burned their surprise round on the teleport and then arrived non-flat-footed but still effectively rolling initiative against the party.


See DMG p22, Starting an Encounter for details. Figuring out awareness can be difficult but going first is huge and surprise rounds are huger so it's important to take things step by step every time if necessary (I re-figured Anticipate Teleport twice already, it's hard to remember that when someone's in the buffer no one on either side is sensing any foes). The only part I disagree with is having aware newcomers act in order of dex, since it ignores their initiative abilities, so I'd have aware newcomers roll off.

The aware-newcomers section is what seems to trip people up the most. The thing to remember is that you can't be an aware newcomer (and thus automatically go first in the round) if there isn't already a battle going. You also can't ready actions outside of combat or roll initiative without becoming aware of a foe, and just because you expect an attack soon doesn't mean you're directly aware of anyone.


Tangent: Trying to game the system by rolling initiative against the floor or something so you can "ready" an action could be effective, if allowed: it means your aware foe automatically goes first (initiative= yours+1), but unless they trigger your action (which will require you to sense them triggering it, even though you obviously can't sense them right now or you'd have had to roll against them already, and you're basically restricted to the trigger "if I sense. . . "), you don't get to do anything until your turn in initiative. If you sense them your readied action goes off and your turn is set to right before the triggering unit, somewhere at the top of initiative, then they go and then next turn- effectively what you've done is trade a move action to win initiative at the risk of losing it if your action isn't triggered.

This gets really, really messy if it involves more than two people and practically guarantees that someone's going to be getting free actions, which is why it's not actually allowed. Actions readied outside of combat based on sensing an approaching foe are basically just trying to replace rolling initiative with declaring your first actions and determining who goes first based on who guessed better and/or won stealth/sense checks- and the DM has to pretend they don't know what you just said. It's all very dumb.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I figured someone would ask, so I already searched up the breakdown:

So our different interpretation is pretty much down to how we interpret awareness and when combat starts.
I think the additions in RC support mine though, specifically this part:
...
Other times, the aware side has a few rounds to prepare. The
DM tracks time in rounds at this point to determine how
much the aware combatants can accomplish. Once the
two sides can interact, the aware combatants receive a
surprise round.
It seems tailored for this situation. Assuming Scrying or a similar effect others can see the attacking team would be aware of the defenders, who would be unaware.
Even if you start combat before the teleport the attackers clearly would get the surprise round after the teleport (since that's when the two sides can interact).

I agree with you on how Anticipate Teleportation affects awareness though.

Though even under your ruling invisibility on the part of the attackers would still guarantee a surprise round against most targets.

[Gnaeus]

IME the issue with scry and die isn't ambushing the enemy, it's bypassing the rest of the dungeon. Which may have taken hours to build and/or be the primary thing the DM was prepared to run. The nerf is when they try it you say "great. You're very smart. Now break out Settlers of Catan because you broke D&D congrats. I'll have something else ready for next game". Alternately, you can put the mcguffin to beat the enemy in the dungeon, so when they pop in prebiffed they are also facing a much harder encounter because they don't have the tools to beat it or they didn't disable the alarm or whatever.

[Biggus]

The main problem with the removal/delay of Teleport is that it makes it harder to run away, which the PCs are expected to be able to do, and probably do a lot more often then any of the more visibly problematic Scry-n-Die or dungeon bypass problems (which are less problematic than they appear anyway). At high levels at least two standard party members, if not the entire team via magic items, can Teleport. Depending on the initiative order and who is or isn't stuck in a BFC (or indeed in response to getting stuck), the entire team can be evacuated before the enemy can capitalize and cause fatalities or TPK. High level enemies are allowed to have abilities which can nearly wipe out the entire party in a single round, because the entire party can be whisked away to safety in a single round- or if you prefer, the party's ability to Teleport necessitates such abilities, but either way they're there.

Without Teleport, Schrodinger's Wizard no longer has the actual ability to leave and come back prepared tomorrow. The Cleric can't just fix whatever problem after preparing spells tomorrow because Dave is paralyzed/petrified/dead right now and you need him to have a fighting chance at escape. It takes time to stuff bodies and petrified statues into bags of holding and then run or fly away, while many high level foes have medium-long range AoE effects that can easily mop up PCs that are trying to flee by non-Teleport means- assuming it wasn't in fact a melee foe who broke through and is standing right next to you right now that you need to run from. A game predicated on the ability to defeat otherwise superior foes through good preparation, minus the ability to flee said foes, means that the first time the party fails to be fully and accurately prepared for an unexpected enemy, they fail.


Word of Recall can fulfill the escape function if teleport is removed, without allowing scry-and-die or trivialising dungeons.

[Endarire]

Talk with your players/GM about how they intend to use teleport, which is one of my favorite spells.

Remember that a Wizard able to teleport on his own power is at least level 9 and has at least 15 INT. More likely, he has at least 20 INT and maybe 26+ INT by this point, because Wizard. He's smart, and knows about counter moves to scry & die. Even Xykon prepared for this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)!

But I at least generally agree with Fizban here. If you can warp, you can also warp out in dangeorus situations to help your party, and as GM, I've run a scenario where that was a very wise option.

Thus, instead of trying to overgenerally nerf teleport, have smart foes react appropriately to this well known tactic, regardless of how often it's used. Maybe preparing for this was part of standard Wizard training!

[Fero]

Teleport is a spell, like goodberry, that completely eliminates potentially fun aspects of play. Teleport essentially bypasses all travel based encounters. This could be a good or bad thing depending on the game you want to run. If you want the party to have travel adventurers after level 9, nerf or ban teleport and similar long distance travel spells. You may even go so far as to nerf or ban long distance flight spells that create similar problems. However, you should only take these actions if you place priority on travel encounters. If travel in your game is dull, encourage teleportation.

Alternativelly, you could add encounters to teleport. For example, the party could have an encounter on the Astral Plane, be caught in a mad mages teleportation trap, teleport to an alternative dimension where everyone has goatee and reversed alignment, etc.

With regard to "scry and die," create a precedent that enemy casters know and use Anticipate Teleportation (SC). After one or two reversed ambushes, your party will probably stop using scry and die tactics.

[RandomPeasant]

teleport does a number of things. Most of them do not need to be nerfed.

People are overstating the "ambush" aspect of the Teleport Ambush. I don't really care if I get a surprise round when I teleport next to the BBEG or not. What I care about is that I (and my friends) got to precast all the round/level and minute/level buffs we wanted and he didn't. It's not even something you can entirely solve by removing teleport, as people will just cast dimension door or figure out some other way to get prep time against opponents who didn't get prep time. That said, it is an issue that should be addressed somehow, and making teleport worse as an offensive tool is a reasonable thing to try to do.

The idea that teleport obviates long-distance travel is the wrong way to look at it. Yes, if you can cast teleport it is no longer particularly difficult to solve a "walk a long way" challenge. But if you can cast cloudkill it is no longer longer particularly difficult to solve an "a bunch of 3 HD dudes who need to breathe are trying to stab you" challenge, and no one thinks that's a problem. As characters level up, it is expected and desirable that they will gain tools that allow them to solve things that were challenging at low levels easily, because that is what being higher level means. If you can travel a long distance quickly, that unlocks all sorts of adventures where you solve problems by traveling long distances quickly. I do think there's a colorable argument that teleport being one of the first fast travel options is bad, because it means that things like wind walk and shadow walk are much more difficult to justify using.

If people are using teleport to skip encounters, I would start by asking why I am designing encounters people want to skip. If the only reason to fight something is because it is between you and what you want to do, players should be encouraged to figure out ways to not fight that thing. But there are also plenty of other reasons to want to fight things. The players should want to fight enemies because those enemies are opposed to their interests, or because defeating them is instrumentally necessary to achieving their goals, or simply because they have sweet loot that the players would like to have instead.

I would then follow up by asking why I am designing encounters that teleport skips. People talk about how teleport bypasses adventures, but that's not really true. There are lots of adventures teleport doesn't bypass.

You could send the players on a bug hunt, where they are contracted to clear out the monsters in a specific area so people who are not hardcore adventurers can do in there and do productive stuff. Maybe there is a diamond mine that is full of Grey Renders and someone needs to go in and clear out all the Grey Renders so that people can go back to mining diamonds. teleport doesn't really help you there, because skipping over any individual Grey Render doesn't solve that encounter.

That concept generalizes to exploration, which is quite resilient to teleport because if you don't know where you're going, you can't just teleport there. If the players have been hired to go over there and figure out what stuff there is over there that's worth having, there's a certain amount of walking around they'll need to do to get the job done, even if teleport (and its unmentioned-but-implied divinatory assistants) may help them cut that down some.

Intrigue is pretty immune to teleport, as getting to where someone is faster doesn't really do much in terms of bringing them around to your side. You can even use the fast travel aspect of teleport to add a clock to intrigue stories. An army is marching somewhere, and the players need to bounce around between several distant cities to reach some kind of accord or treaty before it gets there and starts doing war stuff that can't just be rolled back. At mid levels, spell slot limitations on how often teleport can be used would encourage strategic thinking and sequencing of cities to visit, adding an element that wouldn't be present if the players could just walk between all the interested parties.

If you really just want a series of combat encounters, how about a good, old-fashioned tournament arc? Somebody is offering a prize (gold, services, magic items, renown, whatever idiosyncratic things individual your PCs want) for whoever can fight best, and they've invited the PCs to participate. The party must go however many rounds against monsters, traps, puzzles, and other contestants. You can do solo fights or PvP (if those work for your table's dynamics). You can use all the weird and wacky NPCs you never had a chance to in previous campaigns. You can throw out whatever half-baked encounter concept you never got to work. You can add non-combat encounters where the players work behind the scenes to get an edge or sabotage the other competitors.

You can also design dungeons that exploit the specific properties of teleport to prevent players from bypassing them. Maybe the sections of the dungeon are demiplanes, connected by permanent portals and you can't just jump to the end. This doesn't even have to be a "screw you, your spell doesn't work" thing. Imagine a laboratory built by a bunch of genies who were working together, with sections on each Elemental Plane, offering a wide variety of strange environments to have encounters in. Or you could do a homage to the Cube movies if you're into that. Or a series of prison demiplanes, each designed to house a specific occupant, who may or may not be present, alive, or hostile.

If you approach adventure design from the standpoint of "this is what I want to do an if teleport stops that I'll just nerf it", you're going to end up with a lot of adventures that teleport tramples all over. But if you look at teleport as a constraint and find ways to work around it, it can lead to very creative adventure designs.

[Fizban]

So our different interpretation is pretty much down to how we interpret awareness and when combat starts.
I think the additions in RC support mine though, specifically this part:
...
Other times, the aware side has a few rounds to prepare. The
DM tracks time in rounds at this point to determine how
much the aware combatants can accomplish. Once the
two sides can interact, the aware combatants receive a
surprise round.
It seems tailored for this situation. Assuming Scrying or a similar effect others can see the attacking team would be aware of the defenders, who would be unaware.
Even if you start combat before the teleport the attackers clearly would get the surprise round after the teleport (since that's when the two sides can interact).
The RC section is essentially a shortening of the DMG version, including several of the same unmodified sentences. As you say, they both come down to awareness- to which I respond that even if your caster says they're going to teleport in X rounds, that doesn't change the fact that you're unaware of the people you're going to be teleported onto, assuming they're even there when you show up (this isn't like a paradrop or a door opening, it's literally reality shifting around you to a completely different place, which should if anything be the absolute pinnacle of jarring, the one movement option most capable of interrupting your "readiness").

This not one side being aware, but rather, some creatures on one or both sides being aware: the caster who is presumably viewing via Scry until the moment of casting Teleport, and possibly others in the party who are also scrying or similar. Even the RC version says, right below the One Side Aware Section, that if only Some on Both Sides Aware, only those creatures get to act.

The DMG actually provides examples, however some of these examples when examined start to fall apart:

The one side aware with time to prepare example being that of opening a door. This example is actually quite bad, as it fails to account for the rest of the party, and opening a door is an action (a move action), but it does clearly state that if the orcs fails to hear him then Jozan gets a surprise action after opening the door. Though in truth he should not, unless the orcs *also* failed to notice the door opening, which requires no spot check- unless the orcs have patrols out which would cause them to initially disregard the opening of a door.
The both sides suddenly aware suggests a bunch of adventurers bursting into a room, except the previous example said that opening a door allowed awareness, so how is the whole party not just opening but also moving through the door before anyone rolls initiative? These must be some ridiculously unobservant orcs.
The one or more on either or both sides example is Lidda and the gargoyle both seeing each other at the same time, at which point they both get a single action, before their combat is presumably heard and joined by their allies.
(The kobold sudddenly seeing the party and shooting first is actually simple enough to make sense without a long description).


It is presumed that the single standard action an aware entity can take whilst the other is unaware, is something that will itself make them aware, else there would be no rolling of initiative. If you take your "surprise round" action and it doesn't cause anyone to roll initiative, it doesn't float forward: you just haven't actually done the surprise round yet. If you're aware and they're not then you can take a surprise action, but casting Teleport means that everyone else is suddenly aware- you spent your surprise action doing something that alerted the others and began combat. I can see a ruling where the implied offense of the surprise action somehow means that you get to Teleport and then keep your surprise round because the game said you should get a free attack, but that's a deliberate ruling to make the Teleport essentially free when the existing setup already accounts for what happens if you take an action that makes everyone aware: just because it's not an attack doesn't mean Teleport is a free action in the surprise round.

Tracing back looking for what "aware" is supposed to mean, it says that when it becomes possible for either side to become aware of the other, you use lines of sight, spot, and listen checks (this is also present in the RC version). A teleporting group that can't see or hear their destination does not even have the possibility of awareness, except for any individuals who might be using magic to do so- anyone else might be told to take some actions, but it is simply impossible for them to be aware: even if the upcoming teleport was to create the "possibility," they still have no line of sight, no successful listen checks, they can't actually be aware. Even the example of Jozan and the orcs behind the door has Jozan actively hearing them, and indeed the possibility that they might hear him back making his presumption of a surprise round end in failure.

Essentially, the "awareness" problem isn't about awareness, but rather intent. One side has the intent to begin a fight with something they expect to be somewhere but cannot actually actively sense, so they get a surprise round? This allows the immediate reducto ad absurdum argument that "well my character is always expecting a fight from anything at any time so they get a surprise round," which obviously doesn't make sense. This also quickly becomes "ah but that NPC didn't *expect* me to suddenly attack them, so I get a surprise round, no I don't care if they're looking straight at me and it takes an action to draw my weapon I totally do" which should be a problem for obvious reasons. The only place to draw the line at awareness is with the actual awareness. If a group decides they're going to teleport, casts a few buffs, and then teleports, that doesn't actually make them any more aware of the foes they expect to be teleporting onto. They both become aware at the same time and roll initiative, and if the teleport caster was aware, their effectively free first action from that awareness is still spent casting the teleport.


invisibility on the part of the attackers would still guarantee a surprise round against most targets.
I think I noted that combo further on in one of the threads, though I'd forgotten it until you mentioned just now. Still, this at least acknowledges the need for more than merely lol I teleport to do the job. With no mention of how silent or loud Teleport itself is, there's plenty of room to declare that a bunch of people suddenly appearing makes a noise that can be heard, and if they use Silence then the sudden abscence of noise will definitely be heard- remembering that Scrying only gives a 10' radius so you have to land almost on top of your target.


Word of Recall can fulfill the escape function if teleport is removed, without allowing scry-and-die or trivialising dungeons.
True, though from the thread title I assumed the removal of all teleport-like functions. If they're only targeting precise outgoing teleports for scry-n-die purposes, then indeed Word of Recall maintains that role, though instead of at least two people (arcanist with Teleport and Cleric with WoR) in the standard party you drop to one, before items.

[Biggus]

True, though from the thread title I assumed the removal of all teleport-like functions.

The first two replies are me asking whether they meant all teleportation and them saying no...

[Fero]

I agree generally with the idea that you can design around and for teleport. However, the reality of designing mid to high level games is that parties with tier 1 casters have so many abilities that completely bypass game styles that designing adventures becomes prohibitively difficult. Banning/nerfing teleport or other catagories of spells can go a long way toward making the DMs life easier and allowing the DM to tell the story that they want to tell. For example, the Lord of the Rings would have been a very dull story if Gandalf had access to teleport.

[Fizban]

The first two replies are me asking whether they meant all teleportation and them saying no...
And I generally read the thread title and the OP and then start writing my post before reading the rest of the thread, particularly for short questions where the point is getting a wide variety of input- i give my input, and then I'll see what others have said. Hence why I then added a paragraph about scry-n-die.

[RandomPeasant]

For example, the Lord of the Rings would have been a very dull story if Gandalf had access to teleport.

No it wouldn't've. The whole point of the Ring as a McGuffin is that the people who are badass can't carry it because it will eat their souls, so they have to snowplow for the hobbits, who are not terribly dangerous warriors, but have the "Immune to the Ring" special quality and can carry it over the finish line. From Gandalf's perspective, LotR is about making sure anything that could kill Frodo gets sniped before it does (and also political/military machinations to ensure that Sauron doesn't win on the ground before Frodo finishes his job), and teleport is only marginally useful for that. Frodo doesn't have teleport because he is level, like, three and wouldn't have it under any circumstances.

[Zanos]

I agree generally with the idea that you can design around and for teleport. However, the reality of designing mid to high level games is that parties with tier 1 casters have so many abilities that completely bypass game styles that designing adventures becomes prohibitively difficult. Banning/nerfing teleport or other catagories of spells can go a long way toward making the DMs life easier and allowing the DM to tell the story that they want to tell. For example, the Lord of the Rings would have been a very dull story if Gandalf had access to teleport.
They only bypass adventures if you design the wrong adventures. Other than certain specific creatures that are not native to middle-earth, LotR is a pretty low level setting. And Gandalf is called a wizard, but he really isn't a wizard as most people commonly understand it.

Teleport comes online at level 9 because at level 9, most encounters you could conceivably have on well traveled roads are not a meaningful challenge. Even without a teleport, a 9th level party would have cruised through everything that happened to Sam(and Frodo, I guess). Unless, for some reason, the DM just decides to level up all the bandits and orcs so he can keep having the same fights he was doing at level 1. But then, what's the point? Level 9 characters are starting to be movers and shakers. Most settings will have soverigns of minor nations be between level 9-13. They shouldn't be spending weeks or months traveling anymore. And you can still have your travel encounters when the party is going to new locations, because they won't be familiar enough with them to teleport.

Level 1 characters get ambushed by wolves on the road. Level 20 characters punch deific avatars and archdemons. Level 9 characters should be somewhere between that, and probably not at "and then we got ambushed by orcs on the road again."

[Fero]

No it wouldn't've. The whole point of the Ring as a McGuffin is that the people who are badass can't carry it because it will eat their souls, so they have to snowplow for the hobbits, who are not terribly dangerous warriors, but have the "Immune to the Ring" special quality and can carry it over the finish line. From Gandalf's perspective, LotR is about making sure anything that could kill Frodo gets sniped before it does (and also political/military machinations to ensure that Sauron doesn't win on the ground before Frodo finishes his job), and teleport is only marginally useful for that. Frodo doesn't have teleport because he is level, like, three and wouldn't have it under any circumstances.

Gandalf wouldn't have to bear the ring to teleport Frodo. However, my point more broadly was that teleportation makes it hard to tell travel stories. That is fine if the DM and players don't want a travel story. However, if they do, then teleport becomes problematic. Sometimes the journey is the adventure.

[RandomPeasant]

By way of example, here is an adventure you can have at every level from 9th to 20th that I don't think teleport would automatically bypass (many are appropriate at other levels, depending on how you write them up):

9th: the king has died under mysterious circumstances. It's not clear if there was foul play, but there might have been and the kingdom teeters on the edge of war. The players will need to not just figure out who did it, but find strong enough evidence of guilt that they can stop the people who want an excuse for a short victorious war from starting one. Unless, of course, they think there's an angle they can play by fingering someone innocent, or letting the war go forward as planned.
10th: advances in shipping technology have made resource exploitation of the Northern Wilds viable. But since they're so far away, and were previously so unprofitable to deal with, no one has any idea what's up there. You can make good money if you can tell the trader guilds where the best sources of ironwood, fire diamonds, or lifewater can be found. If you can credibly protect guilders while they set up their infrastructure, you can make even better money.
11th: the new king has concocted a scheme to hand out titles to the most lucrative parts of the Northern Wilds to anyone who can prove they can hold them. Fight your way through his gauntlet to claim an exciting business opportunity, or sabotage your foe's attempts to do the same.
12th: the dwarves of clan Goldbeard have run into a problem with their deep mines: a new dig breached the territory of a Mind Flayer colony. Clear out the guard beasts the mind flayers released into the mine so it can resume operations, and either kill the illithids who sent them or figure out an agreement that stops any future miners from getting their brains eaten.
13th: the city of Freeport is being attacked by a neighboring kingdom who'd very much like control of their trade. Internally, the war is being sold on heavily propagandized grounds, and it would be in the best interests of all the other surrounding kingdoms if Freeport stays free. Either figure out a way to get the army called off, or see to it that a defensive coalition arrives in time to break the siege.
14th: Northstrider is offering a rare chance to get added to the list of people he trusts to complete his most dangerous and lucrative missions. He's invited you to a tournament where champions from across the multiverse compete for the prizes he offers, greatest of which is an opportunity for an ongoing business relationship.
15th: agents of the Styx Consortium have discovered a new tributary that weaves its way through some lesser-known corners of the lower planes, including at least one layer of the Abyss that was previously thought to be inaccessible. If you can be the first to come back with accurate maps and an accounting of the trade opportunities, you stand to make a killing in finders fees.
16th: ages ago, a prince among the Khayal accumulated such great powers and such a vast army of the forces of Shadow that he threated the great houses of the Genies. They were able to defeat him, but the most they could do at the time was imprison him in a great fortress in the Ethereal Plane, with adjoining fortresses in the Elemental Planes that contain locking elements for the prison where he is sealed. If you can clear the way in, you may be able to free him, put him down for good, or simply let him out long enough to steal a few choicer pieces of his gear.
17th: the crypts of one of the elven Great Houses have become unquiet lately, as something is causing all the occupants (many of whom were quite dangerous in life) to rise as various sorts of undead. Go in there, figure out what's causing the problem, and return the ancestors to their rest, all without violating Elven burial taboos too much.
18th: you seek the Rod of Seven Parts. Unfortunately, the last guys who had the Rod split it into its Seven Parts, gave each one to a powerful creature or adventurer, imprisioned them in various inhospitable locations, and then did their level best to erase any record of where those locations actually are. Track down each site, clear out any guardians you need to, then free and defeat the people holding the Rod's sections.
19th: the Seekers of Tol-Agath think they've found the prison dimension where their lord is held. Unfortunately, it's also where a number of foes of the ancient archmage who imprisoned him are held, and no one they've sent in has come back out. Go in there and get the guy (if the Seekers are your friends), or kill him for good before they manage to release him (if the Seekers are your foes).
20th: creatures from the Far Realm have woven a beacon within the thoughts of the crown prince, allowing them to pour into the Material Plane. The beacon must be excised, but it can only be safely removed at the temple of Sardior, several hundred miles from the capitol, and using dimensional magic to take him there could have unknown consequences. Ensure he makes the trip safely, without spending so many resources protecting him that you fail to fight off the invasion.

That's far from a comprehensive list, and there are a number of other adventures you could do that work with only minimal modifications to RAW. For instance, if you allow a series of forbiddance castings arranged in a sphere to block teleportation into the center, you could have the players go after various demons that were trapped that way by people who couldn't kill them, but which the players can now defeat.


Gandalf wouldn't have to bear the ring to teleport Frodo. However, my point more broadly was that teleportation makes it hard to tell travel stories. That is fine if the DM and players don't want a travel story. However, if they do, then teleport becomes problematic. Sometimes the journey is the adventure.

We don't know the way the Ring would interact with teleport. It seems reasonable to conclude that using magic on it like that might offer it the opportunity to corrupt Gandalf. And, yes, sometimes the journey is the adventure. Those times are called "low levels". Those are also the times when "killing a bunch of 3 HD dudes" is the adventure.

[Fero]

Those are good adventure ideas. However, travel adventures do not need to be confined to low levels. It all depends on the type of story and game the DM and players want.

[RandomPeasant]

Those are good adventure ideas. However, travel adventures do not need to be confined to low levels. It all depends on the type of story and game the DM and players want.

I do not understand why you are so insistent about "you should have low-level adventures at high levels". Do you also think it's appropriate to have a 20th level adventure where the final boss is a CR 3 Ogre if that's "the type of story and game the DM and players want"?

[redking]

Lots of interesting comments.

Some people have mentioned many non abusive uses of teleportation and I agree. I wonder if there could be "teleport tokens". A teleport token would be a minor magical stone that allows to to teleport to a place it has been attuned to. To attune a teleport token to a place, you have to actually be in that place and case to spell to attune the token. Once you've cast a teleport spell using the token as a material component, it is expended.

That would create a brisk trade in teleport tokens, and also make scry and die a bit more difficult to pull off. A spy would have to enter the enemy camp or fortress, cast the spell to enchant a token, then scy and die could happen as usual, but at least with a bit of gameplay.

In this manner, the PCs would be able to use teleport without unnecessarily restricting their movements.

[Biggus]

And I generally read the thread title and the OP and then start writing my post before reading the rest of the thread, particularly for short questions where the point is getting a wide variety of input- i give my input, and then I'll see what others have said. Hence why I then added a paragraph about scry-n-die.

OK, I mean it's your choice but...don't you find you're often needlessly repeating what other people have said, and missing important additional information (as in this case)?

[Darg]

Scrying is simply extremely easy to counter. Hell, even if they fail the will save they get a DC 20 int check if they have at least 12 int to notice the sensor even if they can't see it. If they teleport in expecting to ambush semi-intelligent creatures, well it just won't always work in their favor and they've at least alerted their target to their desire to murderhobo.

[Kitsuneymg]

If you’re looking to nerf the magic system, I’d suggest looking at spheres of power (a pathfinder supplement, but not hard to convert.) it has a sphere dedicated to teleporting: warp. It also makes a distinction between regular talents and advanced talents. Tactical teleportation is a regular talent. You can easily get dimension door plus attacking in the middle and group repositioning within long range. That’s all normal talents. The advanced talents are explicitly optional and are where the long distance portals, planeshift, etc are.

It also introduces ritual casting. This would be a way to allow teleportation and plane shifting, but only under controlled circumstances (certain times, certain locations, etc.) you can still use it when it’s narratively convenient, but it’s much harder to just bypass or scry and die folks. (I think scry is also an advanced talent, but can’t remember.)

It may be too far for what you want, but some of the ideas are worth lifting.


As for warp’s impact on the game. At low level, you can have short and medium range teleportation with a single talent. All day short range teleportation too. This makes some of the early game traps and challenges pointless. A 20 foot pit isn’t a challenge if you can teleport everyone 30’.

You do run into issues at high level without advanced talents. It’s harder to get places. Particularly to retreat from dangerous areas back to safety, or to sell loot. If your characters level up and begin to penetrate further and further into unsafe areas, a death (resurrection is advanced as well) can mean weeks of in game marching and random encounters to raise a person. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, you and your players would need to account for it. Planeshift is the same issue, but far harder to solve.

[Fizban]

I wonder if there could be "teleport tokens". A teleport token would be a minor magical stone that allows to to teleport to a place it has been attuned to. To attune a teleport token to a place, you have to actually be in that place and case to spell to attune the token. Once you've cast a teleport spell using the token as a material component, it is expended.

That would create a brisk trade in teleport tokens, and also make scry and die a bit more difficult to pull off. A spy would have to enter the enemy camp or fortress, cast the spell to enchant a token, then scy and die could happen as usual, but at least with a bit of gameplay.

In this manner, the PCs would be able to use teleport without unnecessarily restricting their movements.
There exists a published item, the Scrying Beacon (or focus, or something), which is essentially this but for Scrying (actually they might not be tradeable come to think of it, I haven't looked it up in ages). The spell Gemjump lets you teleport to a gem which you previously prepared, but it doesn't allow such switching- it's actually an uber pre-cast spell which you simply cast and then later "trigger," with no limitations on how many you can have or how long they last or any cost at the moment you trigger it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There exists a published item, the Scrying Beacon (or focus, or something), which is essentially this but for Scrying (actually they might not be tradeable come to think of it, I haven't looked it up in ages). The spell Gemjump lets you teleport to a gem which you previously prepared, but it doesn't allow such switching- it's actually an uber pre-cast spell which you simply cast and then later "trigger," with no limitations on how many you can have or how long they last or any cost at the moment you trigger it.
Scrying Beacon is from Heroes of Battle, but it's not particularly good.
Mostly because it only works for Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and you can replicate most of the functionality with Listening Coin and Spymaster's Coin if you can't afford a Third Eye:Sense yet.
It's cheap at least.


Scrying Beacon

If a spellcaster spends 1 minute attuning himself to the beacon, he can choose for the next clairaudience/clairvoyance spell he casts to be centered on the beacon, as long as he is within one mile of it. Once this power has been used, the beacon becomes dormant until the caster attunes himself to it again.
Faint divination; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, clairaudience/clairvoyance; Price 750 gp.
It was reprinted in MIC too but nothing was changed.

Dragon Compendium also has the Golden Beholder which is basically a crystal ball that's limited to the 10 scrying beacons (masterwork daggers with permanent Magic Aura to detect as nonmagical) it comes with.
On the upside it can no-save scry them at-will even across planes, let's you cast spells through it as Greater Scrying and the sensor can't be detected with an intelligence check.

Gemjump is indeed awesome.

[Gnaeus]

Gandalf wouldn't have to bear the ring to teleport Frodo. However, my point more broadly was that teleportation makes it hard to tell travel stories. That is fine if the DM and players don't want a travel story. However, if they do, then teleport becomes problematic. Sometimes the journey is the adventure.

Yeah, but LOTR also couldn't have happened if Gandalf had Phantom Steed. Or Air Walk. Or Lesser Planar Binding. Or a bag of holding and an air bottle. There are probably a dozen or more ways to end run travel adventures by the time you hit teleport, and more after, like shadow walk or transport via plant.

[Elkad]

Teleport (and all extra-dimensional stuff, including storage) is disabled at my current table. That includes tactical teleportation, though that's slightly usable.
I stole the 1d6/10ft from Burning Sky and made it eldritch damage, and it covers everything not-Prime. So a bag of holding is full of purple fire.

They have a bag of holding. It's useless for it's intended purpose, but I expect they'll try to stuff an enemy in it at some point.
I also expect they'll try to research a Resist or Protection from eldritch damage, which I've already decided is just one spell level higher.

My players are fine. They are using other fast travel methods. They've pretty much moved to flight all the time by now. Griffons, Giant owls, overland flight, carpet, etc.

And learned that either you fly really close to the ground, or so high up the rest of the party has several rounds to save you when your griffon dies :)

[RandomPeasant]

Yeah, but LOTR also couldn't have happened if Gandalf had Phantom Steed. Or Air Walk. Or Lesser Planar Binding. Or a bag of holding and an air bottle. There are probably a dozen or more ways to end run travel adventures by the time you hit teleport, and more after, like shadow walk or transport via plant.

Travel is also by far the least interesting thing teleport obviates. You can make a good argument that the Teleport Ambush is a problem (though as I've said, I don't think removing teleport entirely solves it). You can make the case that teleport disables dungeons that are worth keeping, though again I don't entirely agree. I think there's even a case to be made that the easy retreat teleport enables is problematic. But the thing where you no longer have random encounters that are not related to the plot and serve only to kill time between parts of the plot? Yeah, removing that is fine.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yeah, but LOTR also couldn't have happened if Gandalf had Phantom Steed. Or Air Walk. Or Lesser Planar Binding. Or a bag of holding and an air bottle. There are probably a dozen or more ways to end run travel adventures by the time you hit teleport, and more after, like shadow walk or transport via plant.

There's a reason most environmental dangers cap out at CR 7 or so, and even that's pushing it.
"Walk across the desert" is an appropriate challenge for a 1st level party, not people with 5th level spells. D&D simply isn't a low magic game.

If you want mundane challenges stick to the lower levels or don't play with standard (high) magic.
Or copy Anauroch:Empire of Shade and make the entire region a dead magic zone.

[Elkad]

Removing teleport is a major factor in limiting the "5 minute" (actually 4 rounds) adventuring day.

I'll happily hand-wave travel away. "you spend 3 weeks riding. A couple times you see evidence of prior ambushes, but nobody wants to mess with you".

But you have to get by Tucker's Kobolds every time you go back in the dungeon. Or spend the resources to completely dig them out and exterminate them all.

[zlefin]

I think things would work well enough with such a nerf; but there might be alternate fixes which would accomplish your goals better.

Note that a lot of monsters; especially fiends, have teleports. You'd need to decide what happens to those and if they get replacements.

It'd depend on which parts of teleport concern:
strategic mobility,
tactical mobility,
assault capability,
economic effects.

Personally, I lean towards simply increasing the casting time, visibility, and/or cost in order to nerf teleport.

For instance, giving it a 1-hour casting time and a "visible at target area during the casting" effect shuts down scry and die type concerns for the most part.

basically, there's ways to limit each particular concern that leaves many of its other uses largely intact.

[Troacctid]

I think deleting the regular version of the spell and crossing out the "greater" in front of the greater version is a good fix. That's basically what 5e did, and it works well there.

[KoDT69]

I'm not quite sure I could agree with changing the entire magic system in this case. Seems a bit overkill.
It also seems that using a "what if you need to instantly be in a city across the map" is also a lame defense for keeping teleport which is not what the OP was looking for. Any DM worth a darn can design a time constrained goal with physical travel in mind rather than teleportation.
Using teleport to retreat, because bad guys are expected to have the ability to TPK in a single round... Going on 29 years of D&D here and never even had total noobs rush in so massively unprepared. Closest thing was using Dimension Door tactically to divide up line of sight and spread out ass to not get too many in any given area of effect... And that was against the true version of Acererak in Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
Now if you didn't like my idea to just shut down travel magic it's not hard to do as Troacctid said and raise the spell levels and/or add expensive material components to make it less abusable.

[RandomPeasant]

Any DM worth a darn can design a time constrained goal with physical travel in mind rather than teleportation.

And any DM worth a darn can design an adventure where the combat challenges are aimed at 8th level characters instead of 13th level ones. If you want to play a game that involves low-level challenges, there is a very easy way to do that, and it requires modifying exactly zero rules: play at low level. Playing at high level but removing the things that make it different from low level is just playing at low level with extra steps.

[KoDT69]

And any DM worth a darn can design an adventure where the combat challenges are aimed at 8th level characters instead of 13th level ones. If you want to play a game that involves low-level challenges, there is a very easy way to do that, and it requires modifying exactly zero rules: play at low level. Playing at high level but removing the things that make it different from low level is just playing at low level with extra steps.
I'm not arguing that point. I personally have never had any trouble running games of any level. I'm simply offering ideas to the OP that was looking for a specific scenario.

I do think it's a bit unhelpful that so many people are responding only to say that the OP should just not make a change when that change is the purpose of the thread...

[Speeddemon87]

I feel like Teleport isn't the big problem for such ambushes but rather things like Dimension Door. That can be done even earlier and from far enough away that you can be reasonable sure the baddie hasn't spotted you if you've discerned their location. Winning initiative or not also isn't really the problem here, it's the rounds prepping with buffs before skipping over any defenses that might alert the enemy or drain the party's resources and instead going straight to a final battle at more than full power. Even if the bad guys win initiative, they're probably screwed then, if they were at all beatable in a pre-buff situation.

There are answers to that of course. Anticipate teleport helps greatly even the playing field in such a situation, other spells that can be used to stop extradimensional travel in the area. Of course, then they can just start using other tricks if they know the exact location of their enemies, like passwall or similar spells to bypass obstacles and get there fast.

Honestly, the biggest problem with Scry-and-Die isn't the 'and-Die' part, it's the Scry part. If they have advanced knowledge of the baddies and use it to prep for the fight, it going to be rough for any planned adventure.

[Batcathat]

And any DM worth a darn can design an adventure where the combat challenges are aimed at 8th level characters instead of 13th level ones. If you want to play a game that involves low-level challenges, there is a very easy way to do that, and it requires modifying exactly zero rules: play at low level. Playing at high level but removing the things that make it different from low level is just playing at low level with extra steps.

True, but that doesn't seem to be what the OP is striving for and if the intent is to play high level without one specific thing, isn't the best way to remove (or nerf) specifically that one thing? Playing a high level game without teleportation and playing a low level game seems like two rather different experiences to me.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Honestly, the biggest problem with Scry-and-Die isn't the 'and-Die' part, it's the Scry part. If they have advanced knowledge of the baddies and use it to prep for the fight, it going to be rough for any planned adventure.

If your players make proper use of their abilities to gather information it's on you as the DM to have the NPCs make proper use of their abilities to stop them.
You know exactly how they're build and what their abilities are, how is this an issue?
If it becomes a problem you can easily adjust plot-relevant encounters to include teleport- and divination defenses.

Don't want your players to skip to the end of a dungeon? The dungeon is under a Forbiddance effect (CL = higher than your players can dispel). Problem solved.
Don't want your players to spy on the BBEG plotting their downfall? Mage's Private Sanctum is literally build for that.

You don't even need either since Teleport comes with a "no because plot" excuse built right into it:

...
Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.
...

Scry & die isn't some unexpected exploit, the mechanic has plenty of counters available in the system at the levels where it becomes relevant.

[Fero]

Good point on the "areas of strong physical or magical energy" limit on teleport. Of course, that begs the question, what is an area of strong physical energy. Do gyms block teleportation?

[redking]

True, but that doesn't seem to be what the OP is striving for and if the intent is to play high level without one specific thing, isn't the best way to remove (or nerf) specifically that one thing? Playing a high level game without teleportation and playing a low level game seems like two rather different experiences to me.

My intent is to keep the playing field level. So whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. If players are using scry and die, then NPCs can use it too. I guess that won't be so fun though. Was it Dragon Age that had no teleportation? Seems like they dodged a bullet in many ways.


Good point on the "areas of strong physical or magical energy" limit on teleport. Of course, that begs the question, what is an area of strong physical energy. Do gyms block teleportation?

"Yeah, sorry the teleport failed. There are dudes pumping iron next door and some of those dudes are on alchemical 'roids".

[Fero]

[QUOTE=redking;25486545
"Yeah, sorry the teleport failed. There are dudes pumping iron next door and some of those dudes are on alchemical 'roids".[/QUOTE]

I think that works by RAW.

[sleepyphoenixx]

My intent is to keep the playing field level. So whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. If players are using scry and die, then NPCs can use it too. I guess that won't be so fun though. Was it Dragon Age that had no teleportation? Seems like they dodged a bullet in many ways.

Some people enjoy playing divination chess.
It's certainly not for everyone, but as a DM you can quite frankly just retcon a teleport or scrying defense whenever your players want to scry or teleport somewhere you don't want them to.
It's not like they're particularly rare, they're just as available in the world as any other magic (and probably in high demand too).

[Troacctid]

Good point on the "areas of strong physical or magical energy" limit on teleport. Of course, that begs the question, what is an area of strong physical energy. Do gyms block teleportation?
An example of an area with strong physical energy would be an active volcano.

[Darg]

Some people enjoy playing divination chess.
It's certainly not for everyone, but as a DM you can quite frankly just retcon a teleport or scrying defense whenever your players want to scry or teleport somewhere you don't want them to.
It's not like they're particularly rare, they're just as available in the world as any other magic (and probably in high demand too).

The question is whether they are actually enjoying it or are the players feeling as though they must do it because it's simply a tool in their bag. It's like building a trap for anyone trying to intrude into your bedroom, but no one does so you start feeling the need to engineer a scenario that someone would be tempted to just because you have a trap with a purpose being left unused. No, I've never rushed to my room before my friends got there just to ready a bucket of confetti only to find that my sibling set it up before I got there. Nope, never happened.