fixing the turn undead ability

[King of Nowhere]

my experience with the game is that turn undead is a useless, poorly-conceived ability past the first few levels.
At level 1, your cleric can try to turn a horde of skeletons or zombies. Roll charisma, it can succeed or fail depending on how well you roll. roll 2d6 for hit dice to turn, that roll can go well or not. turn a certain amount of skeletons/zombies.

but once you get some levels, monster hit dice must progress more than your hit dice to make them a serious threat. So my actual tabletop experience is that every undead that you can turn is an undead too weak to pose a real threat to the party. and every undead that is actually dangerous, you can't turn.
some exceptions like vampires and liches, undead with class levels. but those tend to have turn resistance. And I'll add that having a mechanic to one-shot one of those without any kind of resistance would be bad anyway.
Still, turn undead could be useful to mop the floor from large numbers of lesser undead, if not for the hit dice pool. At low level, those 2d6 are a lot. at least potentially. At high level, they are a pittance; you turn undead hit dice slightly above your own hit dice. If you are 15th level turning undead of slightly lower hit dice, barring extreme luck, you only turn one.
finally, the condition "if you score twice the hit dice of the undead, you destroy it completely / dominate it" is never seen past the first few levels. unless your 15th level cleric goes turning a 8hd undead.
It's no wonder that the only use of the turn undead ability in every serious build is to use it to fuel divine metamagic or something else.
and it's quite a let-down at the table, whenever the party is fighting undead, someone remembers "hey, shouldn't the cleric be able to do something about that - naaah"


is there any proposed fix for it?
I was thinking increasing the pool of turned hit dice by 1d6 per two levels, extending the table of the charisma check for superhuman charisma scores, triggering the destruction/domination at hit dice +5 instead of hit dice *2. but giving a will save to resist to sentient undead.

[Mordante]

To add injury to insult. I have never et a DM who uses undead enemies.

[Gruftzwerg]

You have summed up strengths and weaknesses of the ability itself very well.

But that is like looking at it in a vacuum. Most people use the Turn Undead charges for other things like Divine Metamagic to persist buff spells. There are quite a few way to expend em usefully for other things. Devotion feats are another good source to find useful expenders for TU chargers. Travel Domain for swift action movement is the most common choice here (to enable melee oriented builds to move as swift action and full attack).

And finally IIRC there is some stuff that buffs your Turn Undead ability. You just need to invest into build resources to make it better. The question is, is it worth it to specialize into normal Turn Undead use. By the time it normally loses value you have better options as cleric to fight of undead (and maybe found some other use for your TU charges). Or you have invested to keep the ability relevant.

I'm sure a few people here can name some examples to buff Turn Undead via feats/prc/items/stuff..

Here a link to an older thread to optimize Turn Undead (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?398032-Building-a-Turn-undead-cleric) for a build.

[Beni-Kujaku]

But that is like looking at it in a vacuum. Most people use the Turn Undead charges for other things like Divine Metamagic to persist buff spells. There are quite a few way to expend em usefully for other things. Devotion feats are another good source to find useful expenders for TU chargers. Travel Domain for swift action movement is the most common choice here (to enable melee oriented builds to move as swift action and full attack).

Well, yes, that's the point here. Turn Undead is supposed to be a good way to fight undead creature, not just a way to power other abilities. The OP would like a way to make it not suck not as a resource but as an actual way of fighting and using actions against undead. I really think the "+1d6 pool/2 levels" is good to keep it useable against hordes of undead (at least you keep being able to turn 2 or 3 at once of your number of RHD).

Another thing is that you could use it as some sort of Holy Word-like ability. You increase the maximum HD of undead affected by 10, but with increasingly weak effects.

HD<ETL/2: destroyed/ commanded
HD<=ETL: turned/ rebuked
ETL<HD<=ETL+4: runs from you for 1 round per Cha bonus/ dazed for 1 round per Cha bonus, Will for half (10+1/2 ETL+Cha)
ETL+4<HD<ETL+8: blind for 1 round per Cha bonus/slowed for 1 round per Cha bonus, Will negate
ETL+8<HD: -2 to all checks and rolls for 1 round per Cha bonus, Will negate

[RandomPeasant]

I think if I wanted to fix turning as an anti-undead tool, the easy way to do it would be to just make the Sun domain apply to all your turn attempts instead of being 1/day. That seems way easier than fiddling around with the numbers on the mechanic.

[Darrin]

I was always rather fond of the "Destroy Undead" Lightbringer substitution level in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. In a nutshell: Turn Undead does 1d6 damage per cleric level to all undead within 30' of the cleric (standard action). Undead get a Will save for half damage, and Turn Resistance X reduces the damage by X.

I believe Pathfinder used something similar with "Channel Energy".

It works well enough on destroying low-level undead, as it should, and it's still useful against higher-level undead as it does *something*.

[JeenLeen]

There's a PrC largely based on Turn Undead boosts, called... I think Holy <something> of Pelor... Maybe from Complete Divine. Been a while since I looked at the books.
I don't recall the specifics, but it added enough to make it feasibley useful. Maybe lift some of its mechancis and add it to the base Cleric power?

Again, I don't remember its specifics, but I do remember a battle against a lich (in full clothing so we didn't know it was undead, though there were hints). It killed my cleric, but the DM noted he had hoped I'd figure out it was undead and use Turn Undead to dust it immediately. It was powerful for our party level, but that PrC gave me strong enough I should've destroyed it or at least got it fleeing so the martial players could take it out.

[Rebel7284]

Some thoughts:

- I agree that, currently, Turn Undead is very niche.
- It's nifty in high optimization games to dominate yourself a few Slaymates for cheaper metamagic.
- One of my concerns is that Clerics are already one of the best classes, making Turn Undead more powerful boosts them further. Sure it might help some Paladins too, but it IS okay to have niche abilities....
- While it's true that undead HD grow fairly quickly, there are a lot of items out there and a few class abilities that do allow a turning focused cleric to keep up. It's not the best focus for the most part, but you CAN do it under the current rules.

[sleepyphoenixx]

is there any proposed fix for it?

You don't need a fix. The way to make turn undead not suck is the same as it is for most other class abilities: you invest build resources into it.

If you want your TU to stay relevant past the lowest levels and have someone capable of making a DC 15 perform (strings) check you should start with a Lyre of the Restful Soul (LM, 3000gp) to lower turn resistance by 4. It can explicitly go into the negatives.

The lyre is quite frankly OP as hell. A 5th level cleric can now easily vaporize any undead with 6 or less HD. An evil cleric could command five 5 HD undead or two 6 HD ones.

After that comes the Rod of Defiance (MIC, 7312gp) - undead within 30ft are treated as having 4 fewer HD for turning/rebuking, which stacks with the lyre.
A good 10th level cleric can now vaporize any undead of 13HD or lower even without greater turning. An evil cleric can command two 13HD minions or up to ten 9HD ones.
I'd say that's some good value out of ~10k gp if you fight undead with any kind of regularity (or make your own, if you're evil).

Then you can add things that boost your turn/rebuke level.
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG, 11000gp) +4 to turn undead
Rod of Authority (DotF, 20576gp) +4 to channel energy, turn and rebuke undead
Scepter of the Netherworld (LM, 9000gp) +3 to turn or rebuke undead
Sacred Shield (BoED, 9000gp) +2 to turn or rebuke undead
Sacred Armor (BoED) +2 "
Sacred Dastana (BoED) +2 "
Sacred Chahar-Ana (BoED) +2 "
Improved Turning (PHB, feat) +1 to turn or rebuke creatures
Divine Energy Focus (GW, feat) +2 to turn or rebuke undead
Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (ECS, 750gp) +1 to turn undead or censure fiends
Paragnostic Apostle See through the Veil (CC) +2 to turn or rebuke undead
Icon of Ravenloft (ECR, 18000gp) +4 to turn undead
Inspire Turning (ECR, ACF) +2 to turn or destroy (lightbringer ACF) undead
Moonfriend (ECR, 9000gp) +3 to turn undead (only)
Ephod of Authority (MIC, 800gp) +1 to turn undead (only)
Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC, 3000gp) +2-4 to turn or rebuke undead, charges/day
Light of Wisdom (CC, spell) +1/3 CL to effective turning level, [good]
Ruby Blade (MIC): Relic Power: +4 effective level for rebuking, commanding, bolstering
The only things that explicitly don't affect rebuking are the Moonfriend (ECR), Ephod of Authority (MIC) and Inspire Turning (ECR),
though Light of Wisdom is [good] and usually unavailable to evil clerics.

I'm operating under the assumption that anything that boosts turning undead also affects rebuking undead unless stated otherwise, because of these two passages.

Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead.

Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead.

Regardless of the effect, the general term for the activity is "turning."

"Every listed feat that applies to turning undead applies to rebuking,
commanding, bolstering or dispelling turning as well."
How that interacts with turning other types is not covered in the rules, as far as i could find at least.
Ask your DM, but allowing them to benefit is pretty much the only way to let turning non-undead stay relevant without the lyre and rod helping out.

Adding even half of those turning level boosters will probably see you crush most undead encounters, and it's not like they're particularly expensive compared to what you get.
You can also get a Rod of Undead Mastery (MIC, 11000gp) to double the HD of undead you can control if you want more - "double" is quite a lot with the lyre and rod in play.

If that's still not enough though you can get even more value out of your investment by buying one (or more) Khyber Shard Holy Symbol (FoE, 7000gp).
These let you rebuke/command one element subtype and turn/destroy its opposed element subtype as the elemental cleric domains.
Which means a separate command pool, which means more minions.

Dragons have element subtypes, and with a bunch of turning level boosters you could actually control a CR-appropriate one.
Make that two CR-appropriate ones, per elemental subtype you can rebuke. Not that most DM's would let you, but it's mechanically quite doable.

How good that is depends on how many of your turning boosters your DM lets apply to non-undead.
The lyre and rod are very likely out. The only thing that explicitly works is the Improved Turning feat.

But even just commanding undead becomes very powerful if you invest in it.
If you just want TU to stay useful until your DMM comes online you can probably afford a flametouched iron symbol or the ephod no matter your build.
If you're commanding instead of destroying the lyre is frankly OP until level 6-7 or so and even longer if you combine it with the Rod of Defiance.
One up to 9HD minion per effective turning level for 11k gp is a lot of manpower per gold piece, particularly if you go dumpster-diving for templates to use with Create Undead.
That's probably superior to Leadership AND Thrallherd until very high levels if you get good corpses.

I suggest checking MoF, BoVD and Ghostwalk for the Spectral Mage, Bone/Corpse Creature and Bonesinger templates. Juju Zombies (UE) and Zombie/Skeletal Dragons (Drac) are also worth a look.
With those in your arsenal you should be able to animate and command almost any creature with useful class levels you can find.

Even dumping turning at level 5 to get a prestige class can be compensated for with relatively little investment, so pretty much every evil cleric can afford a very decent army.

[ShurikVch]

Still, turn undead could be useful to mop the floor from large numbers of lesser undead, if not for the hit dice pool. At low level, those 2d6 are a lot. at least potentially. At high level, they are a pittance; you turn undead hit dice slightly above your own hit dice. If you are 15th level turning undead of slightly lower hit dice, barring extreme luck, you only turn one.
Unless the Undead in question is a standard Zombie - "slightly above your own hit dice" is a nothing to sneeze on: 15th level Cleric with Phylactery of Undead Turning may be able to successfully turn a Charnel Hound, or a Nightwalker


finally, the condition "if you score twice the hit dice of the undead, you destroy it completely / dominate it" is never seen past the first few levels. unless your 15th level cleric goes turning a 8hd undead.
Well, firstly - what if it was a group of four 8 HD Undeads (EL 14)?
And secondly - Sun domain and similar effects...

[lylsyly]

Snip ...

I do believe we now have a 1 post mini handbook on optimizing turn/rebuke undead. Great Post!!

[Mechalich]

Turn Undead - without optimization - is one of the many abilities that falls afoul of HP inflation. Specifically, because undead have no Con score they are given extra HD to make up the HP deficit that would normally be supplied by Con. For example, a CR 16 Nightwalker has 21 HD, while a CR 20 Pit Fiend has only 18 HD - the Nightwalker still has massively less HP, because the Pit Fiend sources 64% of its HP total to its Con score.

Now, a number of incorporeal undead don't get a huge boost to HD, especially in the low to mid levels. Turning is great against Wraiths and Spectres which have HD=CR.

[RandomPeasant]

It's not just HP bloat that gets you. The way challenges work means that the destroy/command effects would become progressively less useful as the game went on, even if turning keyed off of CR instead of HD. At 4th level, half your level is CR 2, which is still close enough to your level to be pretty dangerous, meaning an ability that blows up a bunch of enemies that are half your level is still pretty good. At 14th level, half your level is CR 7, which is barely high enough for you to get XP for defeating them.

[AnonJr]

In the interest of completeness, have you looked at the Variant Turning Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#turningUndeadVariantLevel Check) from UA?


Turning Undead Variant: Level Check
The standard rules for turning undead allow a cleric to affect a relatively narrow band of undead (up to 4 HD greater than his cleric level). This makes many undead creatures "off limits" for this iconic power of the cleric. This variant changes the cleric's turning check into a battle of personality strength, representing it by a level check that also takes into account the opponents' Charisma scores.

When turning undead using this variant, the cleric makes a turning check against the closest creature first, followed by a separate check against the next closest, and so on. When two or more creatures are equally close, the creature with the lowest number of Hit Dice is affected first (if it's still a tie, the character chooses which is affected first). Creatures more than 60 feet away cannot be turned.

A turning check is a level check to which the character also adds his Charisma modifier. (Use the character's effective turning level, which is equal to class level for a cleric or class level -3 for a paladin.) The DC is 10 + the creature's Hit Dice + its turn resistance (if any) + its Charisma modifier. (To speed play, the game master can add a "Turn DC" score to the statistics block of each undead creature.)

If you use this variant, some creatures' turn resistance should be increased to keep them from being too easy to turn. Any creature with turn resistance of +4 or higher should gain an additional +2 to its turn resistance. Creatures with turn resistance of +3 or lower need no change.

If the check fails, the creature is unaffected. Its Hit Dice do not count against the total number of creatures the character can turn (see below).

If the character succeeds on the check, the affected creature stands frozen in place for 1 round, just as if it were paralyzed (though this affects even creatures with immunity to paralysis). On each succeeding turn, the character may take a standard action to concentrate on the effect, prolonging the effective paralysis for an additional round. (This doesn't count as a turn attempt, and affects all undead creatures that the character has "paralyzed" in this manner.) The character may concentrate on this effect for a maximum of 10 consecutive rounds, after which the undead creature can act normally. If a creature affected in this way is attacked or takes damage, the effect is broken and the creature may act normally beginning on its next turn. (The character's proximity to the creature has no effect.) This effect is the same whether the character channels positive or negative energy.

If the character's check beats the DC by 5 or more, he may instead turn the creature (if he channels positive energy) or rebuke it (if he channels negative energy).

If the creature has Hit Dice equal to one-half the character's effective cleric level or less, the turning attempt automatically succeeds, and he does not have to make a check (the creature's Hit Dice still count against the maximum). Furthermore, such undead are automatically destroyed (if the character channels positive energy) or commanded (if he channels negative energy).

The character makes checks against each eligible creature until he has affected the maximum Hit Dice worth of creatures, or there are no more eligible creatures. He can affect a number of Hit Dice of creatures equal to three × his effective cleric level on any one turning attempt. For example, a 4th-level cleric (or 7th-level paladin) can affect up to 12 HD worth of creatures, which could mean two creatures with 6 HD each, four creatures with 3 HD each, or any other combination that adds up to 12 HD.

An evil cleric can instead channel negative energy to bolster undead or to dispel a turning effect. In either case, the cleric makes a normal turning check (if attempting to dispel a turning effect, add the turning cleric's Charisma modifier to the DC of the evil cleric's turning check. if the cleric successfully rebukes the undead, the undead gain turn resistance +2 (if he was attempting to bolster them) or are no longer turned (if he was attempting to dispel the turning effect).

For example, a 3rd-level cleric, faces three ghouls and a ghast. The cleric can turn up to 9 HD of creatures. Two of the ghouls are 10 feet and 15 feet away, respectively. The third ghoul and the ghast are both 20 feet away. His turning attempts affect the closest ghouls first, then the farthest ghoul, and then the ghast. The cleric makes the first turning check. A ghoul has 2 HD, but it also has +2 turn resistance, so it is treated as a 4 HD creature. After adding the ghoul's +1 Charisma modifier, the turning check DC is 15. The cleric rolls a 12, which, with his three cleric levels and +1 Charisma modifier, gives him a result of 16, so the nearest ghoul is halted in place. (If the cleric wants to maintain the effect, he'll have to continue to concentrate on it in later rounds.) He has successfully turned 4 HD worth of creatures, leaving him with 5 HD. This is enough to affect another ghoul, so he makes another turning check against the next closest ghoul. the cleric rolls a 6 against the second ghoul, for a result of 10, so the ghoul is unaffected. Against the third ghoul, his roll is 16 for a result of 20, which beats the DC by at least 5, so the cleric can turn the ghoul if he wishes to do so. Since he knows he can't affect the ghast on this turning attempt—it has 4 HD and 2 turn resistance, and the cleric has only 1 HD of turning left—he chooses to paralyze the third ghoul rather than sending it scurrying back into its burrow where it can gather more allies. (Even if the cleric had failed to affect the third ghoul, he would only have 5 HD left—not enough to affect the ghast thanks to its +2 turn resistance.) On his next turn, the cleric can choose to continue holding the ghouls in place or, if his allies have already destroyed the three ghouls, use another turning attempt against the ghast (which requires a DC 19 turning check).

[Biggus]

I was thinking increasing the pool of turned hit dice by 1d6 per two levels, extending the table of the charisma check for superhuman charisma scores, triggering the destruction/domination at hit dice +5 instead of hit dice *2. but giving a will save to resist to sentient undead.

Something to consider if you do make these changes is the effect they will have on divine feats. Most won't be affected, but some will: Divine Spell Power (CD) would be much better at high levels if you extend the table of the charisma check for example.

[Darg]

Why does turn undead need fixing? Sure it's a niche ability, but it doesn't allow a save. You aren't meant to use it to invalidate a difficult single foe. In a fight with a nightwalker you use it to destroy the summoned undead. It's for undead fodder clean up and and some control for encounters with many undead. It's not like clerics need to be stronger or every ability needs to useful in every type of situation.

[RandomPeasant]

Unless, you know, the Nightwalker summons greater shadows, which are beyond what a 16th level Cleric can destroy by default. Scaling at half level is actually an extremely harsh penalty in a game where a monster is half as powerful if its CR is two points lower.

[Mechalich]

Unless, you know, the Nightwalker summons greater shadows, which are beyond what a 16th level Cleric can destroy by default. Scaling at half level is actually an extremely harsh penalty in a game where a monster is half as powerful if its CR is two points lower.

But they can still be turned, so what's the problem? A turned foe is not only out of the fight for ten rounds, it can easily be cornered - say in a room with only one exit - and then it's stuck cowering while everyone but the turning cleric gets free attacks (and the turning cleric can use ranged attacks too). Turning something is not at all a bad outcome.

[Zaile]

I was always rather fond of the "Destroy Undead" Lightbringer substitution level in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. In a nutshell: Turn Undead does 1d6 damage per cleric level to all undead within 30' of the cleric (standard action). Undead get a Will save for half damage, and Turn Resistance X reduces the damage by X.

I believe Pathfinder used something similar with "Channel Energy".

It works well enough on destroying low-level undead, as it should, and it's still useful against higher-level undead as it does *something*.

I second this. Simplifies a lot and gives your turning the punch it needs for the niche it is, undead hordes.

That said, I have gamed with a lot of clerics that use it well on spirits, ghosts and specter-type enemies that usually have lower HD compared to similar CRs but the ever-dreaded energy drain attacks and incorporeal. Turing one powerful undead is just as good as destroying many lower ones, but in the end, HP damage is just as effective. Having holy nukes for undead is a nice back-pocket ability that also double for meta-magic reduction.

DMM Sculpt is an absolute favorite of mine on a cleric for one reason: Sculpted Flamestrike

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I was always rather fond of the "Destroy Undead" Lightbringer substitution level in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. In a nutshell: Turn Undead does 1d6 damage per cleric level to all undead within 30' of the cleric (standard action). Undead get a Will save for half damage, and Turn Resistance X reduces the damage by X.

I believe Pathfinder used something similar with "Channel Energy".

It works well enough on destroying low-level undead, as it should, and it's still useful against higher-level undead as it does *something*.

I believe this is also found in Complete Divine as an alternate rule or class feature.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I do believe we now have a 1 post mini handbook on optimizing turn/rebuke undead. Great Post!!
Thanks.


Unless, you know, the Nightwalker summons greater shadows, which are beyond what a 16th level Cleric can destroy by default. Scaling at half level is actually an extremely harsh penalty in a game where a monster is half as powerful if its CR is two points lower.

And why would or should a 16th level clerics turning destroy anything remotely CR-appropriate without investment?
The only thing that works fine without doing that is generally casting BFC spells.
You don't expect your fighters damage to keep up if you don't get Power Attack and invest in your weapon as you level, do you? This is the same way (only much cheaper).

Scaling at half level is necessary to keep TU even halfway balanced, and at least for good clerics Greater Turning already throws that balance out of a window.
Price is not even a factor because TU boosters are cheap. Too cheap if you're using the full power of commanding really.

A Greater Shadow has an effective 11HD, something a 16th level cleric can annihilate with an investment of less than 5k gp (Talisman of Undead Mastery, Ephod of Authority, Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol). A tiny amount of his WBL. Or he could just cast Light of Wisdom (a 3rd level swift action spell) if he has a CL of at least 18.
If he has Greater Turning he will also destroy the Nightwalker.

And that's without using the Lyre of the Restful Soul and/or Rod of Defiance (which increase your destroy/command cap 1 to 1 as opposed to raising your turning levels 1 to 2 ratio).

With those our 16th level cleric, for the combined price of ~17k gp and a 3rd level slot, can now destroy undead of up to 22HD.
If he has Greater Turning he can outright destroy any undead up to 36HD, and were still quite a bit away from hitting the limit.
If he's evil instead of good he can command two undead with 22HD or twenty-eight 9HD ones.

That makes Leadership look like crap, and you've barely spent a fraction of your 260k WBL on it. And you don't even have a Rod of Undead Mastery or any of the more pricy stuff yet.


But they can still be turned, so what's the problem? A turned foe is not only out of the fight for ten rounds, it can easily be cornered - say in a room with only one exit - and then it's stuck cowering while everyone but the turning cleric gets free attacks (and the turning cleric can use ranged attacks too). Turning something is not at all a bad outcome.
Turning is a terrible outcome once you fight something beyond basic zombies and skeletons.
A turned Greater Shadow will flee through the nearest wall using its incorporeality, then come back to ambush you 10 rounds later. It's better than getting ganged up on by them, but not by much.
At least assuming it doesn't alert other enemies and come back with reinforcements.

If you try the same thing on a lich or other undead with casting you're basically just handing them a free surprise round against you later, because turned enemies WILL use their abilities to flee.

[King of Nowhere]

If you want your TU to stay relevant past the lowest levels and have someone capable of making a DC 15 perform (strings) check you should start with a Lyre of the Restful Soul (LM, 3000gp) to lower turn resistance by 4. It can explicitly go into the negatives.

The lyre is quite frankly OP as hell. A 5th level cleric can now easily vaporize any undead with 6 or less HD. An evil cleric could command five 5 HD undead or two 6 HD ones.

After that comes the Rod of Defiance (MIC, 7312gp) - undead within 30ft are treated as having 4 fewer HD for turning/rebuking, which stacks with the lyre.
A good 10th level cleric can now vaporize any undead of 13HD or lower even without greater turning. An evil cleric can command two 13HD minions or up to ten 9HD ones.
I'd say that's some good value out of ~10k gp if you fight undead with any kind of regularity (or make your own, if you're evil).

Then you can add things that boost your turn/rebuke level.
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG, 11000gp) +4 to turn undead
Rod of Authority (DotF, 20576gp) +4 to channel energy, turn and rebuke undead
Scepter of the Netherworld (LM, 9000gp) +3 to turn or rebuke undead
Sacred Shield (BoED, 9000gp) +2 to turn or rebuke undead
Sacred Armor (BoED) +2 "
Sacred Dastana (BoED) +2 "
Sacred Chahar-Ana (BoED) +2 "
Improved Turning (PHB, feat) +1 to turn or rebuke creatures
Divine Energy Focus (GW, feat) +2 to turn or rebuke undead
Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (ECS, 750gp) +1 to turn undead or censure fiends
Paragnostic Apostle See through the Veil (CC) +2 to turn or rebuke undead
Icon of Ravenloft (ECR, 18000gp) +4 to turn undead
Inspire Turning (ECR, ACF) +2 to turn or destroy (lightbringer ACF) undead
Moonfriend (ECR, 9000gp) +3 to turn undead (only)
Ephod of Authority (MIC, 800gp) +1 to turn undead (only)
Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC, 3000gp) +2-4 to turn or rebuke undead, charges/day
Light of Wisdom (CC, spell) +1/3 CL to effective turning level, [good]
Ruby Blade (MIC): Relic Power: +4 effective level for rebuking, commanding, bolstering


so this then brings the opposite problem: for a small cost, TU becomes OP.
still a problematic ability. the fact that undead do not get a check to resist compounds the problem.
it's either a useless ability that fails against any undead that's even remotely threatening, or something that clears up powerful foes without risk of failure

perhaps have TU just deal positive energy damage to nearby undead would ensure more balance

[Gruftzwerg]

so this then brings the opposite problem: for a small cost, TU becomes OP.
still a problematic ability. the fact that undead do not get a check to resist compounds the problem.
it's either a useless ability that fails against any undead that's even remotely threatening, or something that clears up powerful foes without risk of failure

perhaps have TU just deal positive energy damage to nearby undead would ensure more balance

That's the problem with TU adjustments imho. Either it becomes to strong or to weak. They way as it is, you can either build to make it strong, which is justified due to the build resources or use it to fuel other things.


How about a positive energy aura?
e.g.

1min duration
clvl/4 positive energy
30 ft radius

not game breaking but imho a nice option. Gives you effectively a fast healing aura that can dmg undead and other stuff prone to positive energy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

so this then brings the opposite problem: for a small cost, TU becomes OP.
still a problematic ability. the fact that undead do not get a check to resist compounds the problem.
it's either a useless ability that fails against any undead that's even remotely threatening, or something that clears up powerful foes without risk of failure

perhaps have TU just deal positive energy damage to nearby undead would ensure more balance

That's what the Destroy Undead ACF from ECR does. Darrin already mentioned it.
Though if you're concerned about balance you'll probably still want to limit the number of available turning level boosters (or just cap them at +5 or +10 or something).

If you want to keep normal turning somewhat reasonable simply banning the lyre and Rod of Defiance should also work.
Boosting turning level on its own isn't nearly as powerful without the ability to also reduce the undeads effective HD.
It simply runs into diminishing returns as you level since every extra max HD to destroy/command takes 2 levels of turn boosting, so you'll need to spend a lot more gold to keep it relevant at higher levels. It's still possible, but it'll cost a significant chunk of your WBL and probably some feats to get there.

Either way you should ban Greater Turning entirely, because as long as a player has that he can wipe out most level-appropriate undead with a single casting of Light of Wisdom.

[RandomPeasant]

And why would or should a 16th level clerics turning destroy anything remotely CR-appropriate without investment?

Why should 2nd level Clerics? It is factually true that, without investment, turning destroys foes that are reasonably threatening at low levels and does not at high levels. If you want to argue that high level Clerics don't need the help, I think that's reasonable. But the idea that a class feature that is designed to have a relative function would maintain that relative function at high levels does not strike me as unwarranted.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why should 2nd level Clerics?
WBL? A second level cleric doesn't even have a +2 item yet, why would you expect him to invest into a secondary (at best) ability for it to be useful?


It is factually true that, without investment, turning destroys foes that are reasonably threatening at low levels and does not at high levels. If you want to argue that high level Clerics don't need the help, I think that's reasonable. But the idea that a class feature that is designed to have a relative function would maintain that relative function at high levels does not strike me as unwarranted.

I want to argue that WBL is an expected part of character progression and that level 2 characters tend not to have any.
At low levels your class abilities tend to just work. If you want to keep them useful you have to buy magic gear and take feats and prestige classes to improve them (high-OP casters don't, but they're the exception, not the rule).
Why should Turn Undead be any different?