Optimizing a level 11 Moon Druid Paladin

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hi All,
As per the title I'm changing things up in an existing campaign and replacing an 11th level character with a Moon Druid Paladin. I'm using point buy, can't adjust racial bonuses from default and have access to 1 rare magic item and 3 uncommons. The DM has also said all forms of armor are available in non-metal re-fluffed forms.

At the moment I have penciled in Kalishtar for Race to get bonusses to Wis and Chr and telepathic ability so I can actually talk to my group while in Wild shape.
For ASIs/ feats I'm thinking Telekinetic and ASI Chr to bring Wis and Chr to 18. Str is 13, meaning I can wear equivalent of Chainmail and Con is 12 (though see magic items below). Int and Dex are 8

Magic items:
Amulet of health (rare, attunement) Sets Con to 19 and I'm sure DM will be fine with a necklace fitting any wildshape that has a neck, so should = a bucket of hp per day.
Insignia of Claws (uncommon) +1 hit/ dam in wildshape (and magical attacks)
Cloak of Protection (uncommon, attunement) +1 AC and Save, and as the amulet most/ all of what I'm reading seems to allow something like this to work in wildshape, so I think DM would be fine.
Moon Sickle +1 (uncommon, attunement) Mostly there for the attack/ save bonus on one spell before going into combat wildshaped. This character as written is terrible as a humanoid melee fighter and likely will never swing it. Cantrips are probably a better option in terms of hitting. Does give a 1-4 hp bonus on healing spells.

Level split: Thinking Paladin 6/ Moon Druid 5 to start then Druid X. I'm committing to 6 Paladin levels eventually (not 2) so getting the aura (+4) immediately seems solid, and Extra Attack will be useful on a lot of CR 1 forms that only have 1 melee attack. Going MD 6 and magical melee attacks is redundant with Insignia of Claws anyway.

Paladin Subclass: Thinking Conquest primarily for A) Armor of Agathys, and B) Conquering Presence.

I did write optimizing in the title, but viable, playable and enjoyable would be fine. So, what do you guys think? Parts I'm not as sure about are the Telekinetic which I prefer at first glance to get a BA in wildshape regardless, I do want a 1/2 feat to round off Wis, so maybe Fey Touched??? or another 1/2 feat?
I initially had the same stats, but Gauntlets of Ogre Power (uncommon) instead of the Amulet and a Moon Sickle +2 or Staff of the Woodlands (rare) instead of the Moon Sickle +1, but the sheer number of HP the Amulet of Health provides in Wildshape lets the character do their thing way more. The sacrifice was worse AC due to 13 strength and generally worse while not wildshaped, and yes I know I could have dumped Con to 8, still got the Amulet and had a Str 15, but the level of cheese there was too much for me to handle. Somewhat lighter armor seemed to fit the character in my mind anyway. I'm not getting full use out of the Moon Sickle either, so could be open to something else there.
Other ideas?
The party is a Ranger, Ranged Fighter/ Rogue and a Barbarian who will definitely benefit from the Aura.
Thanks in advance.

[ATHATH]

To be blunt, even with your Paladin aura(s) and smiting, I really don't think that CR 1 forms are going to be cutting it at level 11, even with the minor health boost from an Amulet of Health (which is only, like, 8 points of extra HP for a deinonychus?). I don't think that going Paladin 6 is worth it, especially since Extra Attack can't be stacked with Multiattack (which can get you more attacks than Extra Attack can in some forms anyway).

I'd recommend going for Paladin 2/Druid 9, or possibly even Paladin 1/Druid 10 (with Paladin 2 being your 12th level), instead of your current level distribution. Elemental Wild Shape is HUGE for Moon Druids- earth elemental form kicks 17 different kinds of ass. It lets you scout through dungeons by noclipping through their walls and tremorsensing enemies inside, it's CHONKY (126 HP + resistance to nonmagical B/P/S), and it often lets you get advantage on your attack rolls by just attacking your enemies from within walls (which synergizes with Paladin smiting).

Earth elemental form also has 20 CON, so if you pick up CON save proficiency from, say, Resilient (CON) and then assume earth elemental form, you'll succeed on DC 10 concentration saves even on a natural 1 (which is a HUGE threshold, as that means that you'll autosucceed on conc. saves caused by any attack that does <=21 points of damage to you). You have an amulet of health, but that only gives you a +4 CON bonus, so you'll only have a +8 bonus to your concentration saves and thus still be able to fail DC 10 concentration saves on a natural 1.

EDIT: I didn't notice your cloak of protection. That gets you up to that magic DC 10 threshold with any animal form, but earth elemental form still dunks on the animal forms in other areas.

I've played a Paladin 2/Moon Druid X on multiple occasions, and trust me, earth elemental form will blow even a deinonychus with paladin auras out of the water. You want it, you want it NOW, and you want to never let go of it.

[Keravath]

It lets you scout through dungeons by noclipping through their walls and tremorsensing enemies inside, it's CHONKY (126 HP + resistance to nonmagical B/P/S), and it often lets you get advantage on your attack rolls by just attacking your enemies from within walls (which synergizes with Paladin smiting).



Lots of good suggestions - elemental forms are a major upgrade for a moon druid so if I was creating such a character at level 11 it would be 1 paladin/ 10 moon druid with the next level in paladin.

However, the description of earth elemental abilities is a bit exaggerated or DM dependent. The earth elemental ability is the following:

"Earth Glide. The elemental can burrow through nonmagical, unworked earth and stone. While doing so, the elemental doesn't disturb the material it moves through."

The earth elemental can burrow through unworked earth and stone. This means that the tactics described don't work in most manufactured dungeons with worked stone walls/floors/ceilings or even in mines or similar structures with worked earth or stone features. It works fine in natural surroundings, caves or tunnels so it can be useful but scouting a dungeon may not be effective depending on the DM and how they rule the ability in regards to "unworked" earth and stone.

----

P.S. Brown bear is a classic CR 1 form for a moon druid. It has 4d10 hit dice and a con of 16 - an amulet of health increases its hit points by 4 from 34 to 38. In tier 3, this is a negligible change. There are creatures in tier 2 or 3 that will one shot that bear or come close. A frost giant for example is CR8, has 2 attacks with +9 to hit and averages 25 damage on each. With the AC of 11 on the bear - it dies in one round.

So if you want to "optimize" a paladin/moon druid, you probably need to avoid 6 levels of paladin to start with. The character will be playable and might be fun to role play but it will likely feel lacklustre compared to other level 11 characters in the party unless they are built similarly.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

To be blunt, even with your Paladin aura(s) and smiting, I really don't think that CR 1 forms are going to be cutting it at level 11, even with the minor health boost from an Amulet of Health (which is only, like, 8 points of extra HP for a deinonychus?). I don't think that going Paladin 6 is worth it, especially since Extra Attack can't be stacked with Multiattack (which can get you more attacks than Extra Attack can in some forms anyway).

I'd recommend going for Paladin 2/Druid 9, or possibly even Paladin 1/Druid 10 (with Paladin 2 being your 12th level), instead of your current level distribution. Elemental Wild Shape is HUGE for Moon Druids- earth elemental form kicks 17 different kinds of ass. It lets you scout through dungeons by noclipping through their walls and tremorsensing enemies inside, it's CHONKY (126 HP + resistance to nonmagical B/P/S), and it often lets you get advantage on your attack rolls by just attacking your enemies from within walls (which synergizes with Paladin smiting).

Earth elemental form also has 20 CON, so if you pick up CON save proficiency from, say, Resilient (CON) and then assume earth elemental form, you'll succeed on DC 10 concentration saves even on a natural 1 (which is a HUGE threshold, as that means that you'll autosucceed on conc. saves caused by any attack that does <=21 points of damage to you). You have an amulet of health, but that only gives you a +4 CON bonus, so you'll only have a +8 bonus to your concentration saves and thus still be able to fail DC 10 concentration saves on a natural 1.

EDIT: I didn't notice your cloak of protection. That gets you up to that magic DC 10 threshold with any animal form, but earth elemental form still dunks on the animal forms in other areas.

I've played a Paladin 2/Moon Druid X on multiple occasions, and trust me, earth elemental form will blow even a deinonychus with paladin auras out of the water. You want it, you want it NOW, and you want to never let go of it.

Hmm, now you and Keravath have me thinking. My experience having DMed a couple of Moon Druids (single class) has been that the elemental forms are a bit of a side-grade, and not because I'm stopping them from moving through walls or anything. It's more because the double animal forms offer more flexibility in terms of multiple encounters. You can change forms into something more suited to opponents, cast spells to buff or heal allies, or cast a spell against opponents before going into another encounter. Also if encounters between rests are spaced over more than an hour then pretty much none of your buffs will be left even if you make all con checks.

That said Earth Elemental + Armor of Agathys looks pretty attractive with the BPS resistance. Though that would require Druid 10/ Conquest 3; as an 11th level caster that would gain 30 temp hp to chew through. The DM says he's planning to keep going until level 18ish, so I would have a lot of time left with that combo. Getting higher level spells sooner is definitely attractive, and I would definitely not need more than a 13/14 in Chr, so abilities/ feats elsewhere would benefit.

On the other hand, I think you guys are undervaluing the combo I put together a bit. Saves are through the roof and Str and Dex go up in wildshape; Wis is +13 (with advantage from Kalishtar) and you did acknowledge the auto concentration saves on 21 hp or less hits from the +9 Con saves. The fear Channel Divinity 1/ SR in wildshape is a strong ability. When I overlay features and abilities from an 11th level character onto some of those CR1 (soon to be CR2) beasts they start to look pretty decent. Before AoA or something like Aid, Hyena and toad get 57 hp, so I'm looking at potentially 300+ additional hp in a 2 SR day, albeit with a crap AC. Extra Attack on the Hyena gives 2 chances to smite + a potential BA attack when I kill something.

One question I'm still going to be left with regardless of which way I go is: What 1/2 feat to take? It seems to me the BA in wildshape mostly goes unused so that's why I was thinking telekinetic. Is there anything you guys see as useful for Moon Druids?

[Nidgit]

Druids tend to have a number of concentration spells that have a bonus action activation, like Flaming Sphere. Conquest Paladin gains Spiritual Weapon at Level 5, and Moon Druids also have that spell slot to HP ability as a bonus action. So I wouldn't worry terribly about what to do with it, as chances are you'll have some options.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Druids tend to have a number of concentration spells that have a bonus action activation, like Flaming Sphere. Conquest Paladin gains Spiritual Weapon at Level 5, and Moon Druids also have that spell slot to HP ability as a bonus action. So I wouldn't worry terribly about what to do with it, as chances are you'll have some options.

The Spiritual Weapon definitely looks like a solid pick (at least for one battle) since it doesn't use concentration. Would Flaming Sphere or something like Aura of Vitality be better than say Conjure Animals? I'd tend to say no. So that analysis leans in favor of getting the Paladin levels for Spiritual Weapon.

[animorte]

My concerns initially were about the overall spell capability in the party as is. Then I was thinking about suggesting Cleric/Druid instead because of more obvious synergy. That and the Cleric can make up for a lot of the aura stuff Paladin has while offering more spelllllllsssss.

But overall you have a pretty solid looking build, you obviously know what you’re doing. The saves are an excellent point. And Druid is certainly the way to go. Of course I’ve never been a big fan of playing Moon Druid myself, but I still respect it.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

My concerns initially were about the overall spell capability in the party as is. Then I was thinking about suggesting Cleric/Druid instead because of more obvious synergy. That and the Cleric can make up for a lot of the aura stuff Paladin has while offering more spelllllllsssss.

But overall you have a pretty solid looking build, you obviously know what you’re doing. The saves are an excellent point. And Druid is certainly the way to go. Of course I’ve never been a big fan of playing Moon Druid myself, but I still respect it.

You're not wrong about the more spells. That was part of the reason I'm thinking of bringing in a new character; I have been playing with a mostly martial, and our Artificer died and became the Barbarian. When the Gloomstalker is the biggest caster you know you have a martial heavy party.

I've never played a Druid either, but the smiting beast has some appeal to me. I'm wondering if there's a happy medium between what I was thinking and what the other posters suggested, like maybe Conquest 3/ Moon 8. Gets AoA from Conquest with a level 5 slot 1/ LR and Beast forms up to CR 2 (almost 3) including Flying options. Doesn't get Extra Attack, but that's less of an issue with higher CR beasts. More of an issue that it doesn't get Aura. On the Druid side it's now 2 levels from the Elemental options that the other posters thought were a need as opposed to 1 vs. P2/D9 or 0 for P1/D10. And slightly worse caster. So is this the best of both worlds... or maybe the worst since you get neither Elemental nor Aura?

[ATHATH]

Druids tend to have a number of concentration spells that have a bonus action activation, like Flaming Sphere. Conquest Paladin gains Spiritual Weapon at Level 5, and Moon Druids also have that spell slot to HP ability as a bonus action. So I wouldn't worry terribly about what to do with it, as chances are you'll have some options.
In terms of concentration options for elemental form, I'm partial to Summon Fey, especially if you can start the game with a +X shortsword (that doesn't require attunement) to hand over to them so they can pierce nonmagical B/P/S resistance. For animal wild shapes, Bless is a decent spell to concentrate on to boost your hit rates to acceptable levels for a fight.

... I suppose that there's an argument to be made that Barkskin could be worth concentrating on for this build specifically, but even suggesting that makes me feel queasy.



Before AoA or something like Aid, Hyena and toad get 57 hp, so I'm looking at potentially 300+ additional hp in a 2 SR day, albeit with a crap AC. Extra Attack on the Hyena gives 2 chances to smite + a potential BA attack when I kill something.

Are you... sure you're going to get two short rests in a day? Quite a few of the parties I've been in have been lucky to get one short rest per day, let alone two.

Note that a Life Cleric dip would also give an earth elemental 300+ additional HP in a day from disciple of life-boosted Goodberries.

I... suppose I can see your build having decent durability? I'm just slightly concerned that it won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn- +6 isn't exactly the best of hit rates for a level 11 character.

[animorte]

Honestly if you want the Druid path and all the wonderful goodies, as is the impression that I get, I would go with Cleric dip instead of Paladin. It’s easily the most front-loaded class in the game (sans maybe Hexblade). This also keeps you SAD.

There was a recent thread all about Clerics seeming underwhelming because they have everything they need before any other class but don’t power up as much through later tiers.

[Dante]

P.S. Brown bear is a classic CR 1 form for a moon druid. It has 4d10 hit dice and a con of 16 - an amulet of health increases its hit points by 4 from 34 to 38. In tier 3, this is a negligible change. There are creatures in tier 2 or 3 that will one shot that bear or come close. A frost giant for example is CR8, has 2 attacks with +9 to hit and averages 25 damage on each. With the AC of 11 on the bear - it dies in one round.

If you can get Mage Armor from someone, and avoid Brown Bear in favor of Giant Octopus, you'll have AC 14 and 52 HP + extra 24 HP from the Amulet of Health for a total of 76. With your two restraining attacks you can possibly grapple the Frost Giant from 15' away. If the DM rules that its 10' reach axe attack can't hit you (though to be honest that doesn't make sense), it will be limited to one rock attack that hits roughly 2/3 of the time (+9 with disadvantage vs AC 14), about 20 HP of damage a round. If it gets to use its axe it's more like 34 points of damage a round. So you're looking at being able to tank a frost giant for somewhere between 2ish and 5ish rounds per wildshape. Meanwhile you're providing +4-5 to saves for everyone in the party, and doing okay-but-not-stellar damage personally (unless you smite) while concentrating on a druid spell like Pass Without Trace, Entangle, Spike Growth, or Conjure Animals.

Seems fine to me honestly--maybe not better than the average Shepherd Druid but as useful as a normal Paladin, except for the lack of Aura of Vitality. An AC 21 PAM-and-shield Paladin would take roughly 23ish HP per round from a frost giant, with all those HP coming out of actual HP instead of 2/rest wildshaped HP. He'd do somewhat more damage than the Pal 6/Moon 5 Octopus, thanks to PAM and Improved Divine Smite and higher to-hit, but he wouldn't be controlling the giant's mobility (i.e. tanking) or granting anyone advantage on their attacks, and he wouldn't have access to stuff like Conjure Animals.


Are you... sure you're going to get two short rests in a day? Quite a few of the parties I've been in have been lucky to get one short rest per day, let alone two.


I've always wondered what the table dynamic is in this case. Let's say the party is in the middle of a dungeon and a wizard casts Rope Trick and everybody scrambles up with the intention of resting. What happens? Do the bad guys always or often use that time to reinforce or consolidate their troops (fewer but bigger battles)? Do they abandon the dungeon and take the treasure with them? Is there time pressure such that resting an hour results in thousands of innocents getting turned into zombies? Or does the DM just say, "it's been an hour but you don't feel rested"?

Or is it more like "the players just don't bother to do that"?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

In terms of concentration options for elemental form, I'm partial to Summon Fey, especially if you can start the game with a +X shortsword (that doesn't require attunement) to hand over to them so they can pierce nonmagical B/P/S resistance. For animal wild shapes, Bless is a decent spell to concentrate on to boost your hit rates to acceptable levels for a fight.

... I suppose that there's an argument to be made that Barkskin could be worth concentrating on for this build specifically, but even suggesting that makes me feel queasy.


Are you... sure you're going to get two short rests in a day? Quite a few of the parties I've been in have been lucky to get one short rest per day, let alone two.

Note that a Life Cleric dip would also give an earth elemental 300+ additional HP in a day from disciple of life-boosted Goodberries.

I... suppose I can see your build having decent durability? I'm just slightly concerned that it won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn- +6 isn't exactly the best of hit rates for a level 11 character.

We usually get 2 SR and sometimes 1; I'm not sure how that weighs into the P6/D5 vs P1(eventually2)/DX equation though. For me it's more about the number of encounters between rests and how spread out they are. If you have 1 or 2 encounters close together (less than 1 hour) I can see the benefit of the Elemental. If encounters are numerous, varied in terrain, and spread out then double beast forms are better.

I do take the point about difficulty hitting things though; the smite only works if you hit. Bless or some reliable way to get advantage (like a form with blindsight + fog cloud) might be a need, meaning other Concentration spells would be off the table.

[Dante]

We usually get 2 SR and sometimes 1; I'm not sure how that weighs into the P6/D5 vs P1(eventually2)/DX equation though. For me it's more about the number of encounters between rests and how spread out they are. If you have 1 or 2 encounters close together (less than 1 hour) I can see the benefit of the Elemental.

What does less than one hour have to do with Elemental? It's not like Conjure Animals or the Conjure Elemental spell that last 1 hour (concentration). Wildshape lasts for [druid level/2] hours. Elemental wildshape therefore lasts 5-10 hours, which is PLENTY.

Elemental damage is a bit on the weak side (although you can boost it with feats like Sentinel for the reaction attacks and GWM for the occasional bonus action attack). But the duration should not be an issue.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

What does less than one hour have to do with Elemental? It's not like Conjure Animals or the Conjure Elemental spell that last 1 hour (concentration). Wildshape lasts for [druid level/2] hours. Elemental wildshape therefore lasts 5-10 hours, which is PLENTY.

Elemental damage is a bit on the weak side (although you can boost it with feats like Sentinel for the reaction attacks and GWM for the occasional bonus action attack). But the duration should not be an issue.

Basically what you just said. Any supporting spells are only going to last an hour, so encounters spread out more than that will benefit the multi beast forms where a Druid has the flexibility to return to humanoid form, heal, support, and cast whatever spells are needed for the next encounter then wildshape again.