Okay, so I'm a bit inexperienced at multiclassing and wanted to hear suggestions for a road map for these two builds. Any suggestions are welcome, including when to dip where and all that, I've got a main class, a subclass, and a one-level dip for both, but I'm unsure after that. We're doing mad mage on the side to give our DM a break, and I'd love to run either of these. We'll prolly never make it to SUPER high levels, but with some of these, when to snag that dip and all that can be a little confusing. Plus it's good to have an idea, SHOULD levels be rising.
Let's start with my Harengon Shadow Monk with a focus on firearms. I think I want to do around seven or so levels in shadow monk, along with at least three in Gloom Stalker Ranger, and 1 in fighter for the Archer fighting style. I'm making a bounty hunter-style character and liked the sound of the Gun Monk.
The 2nd one is a Tabaxi Oath of Redemption Paladin. I want to be a little on the castery side, I for sure want to focus on Cha, and take a 1-3 level dip in Hexblade, and at least a one-level dip in Peace Cleric, since I feel it meshes well with the theme and is just a crazy, team synergy 1 level dip. Plus I can always snag something like guidance, so a less then steller Wis wouldn't hurt me as bad. With this one, I just want it to feel like a Paladin at its core.
Let me know where you guys think is should dip where, and when. Like the Paladin needs prolly at least one level dip in Hexblade so he can swing, when he needs to, with his Cha, but I know Pali's best stuff is around 7-8, plus Extra Attack at 5, so I don't know how long I want to delay that for invocations and all that other stuff. I look forward to some multiclassing words of wisdom!
An important thing to ask yourself for any multiclassing, for each level starting at level 1, will you have fun playing whatever you have? What your character looks like at level 10 is important, but what about level 3? Level 5? If at level 5 your character is warrior X/spellcaster Y, are you ok not having Extra Attack or 3rd level spells? Suppose at level 4 you want 2/2 in whatever classes. Are you ok with not only not having your subclass for those who get it at level 3, but you also don't have an ASI, meaning if point buy you won't have an 18 and/or not getting a feat? The answer to these questions and others can very well be, yes, you're ok with it enjoying what you have. That's great, but be sure that answer is yes, you're ok with it enjoying what you have. If the answer is no then by obviousness you will not be having fun playing the game because you will be at the level for awhile. At the extreme you might even want a new character because yours "sucks", not giving the fun you thought you would have because the shtick you were looking forwards to isn't happening until a long real world time later when you would finally reach the level it happens.
As long as for each level you like what you have you're doing it right.
greenstone
2022-06-12, 12:15 AM
Let's start with my Harengon Shadow Monk with a focus on firearms.
Perhaps it's just me, but that combination is making my head spin. :smallconfused:
I'm a mysterious figure. I hide in shadows and attack with surprise… but I attack with a weapon that produces a loud noise and a huge cloud of fire and smoke.
That said, what multiclassing you pick has to be influenced by how you are going to be playing the character. Starting at level 10? Go for it. Starting at level 1 and playing through, be a bit more careful.
As a poster here already said, it can be a bit sucky when all the other players at the table are enjoying feats and ASIs and you are sitting there with a level 2/2 character, and at least 2 more levels before you get a feat.
Pixel_Kitsune
2022-06-12, 12:24 AM
Perhaps it's just me, but that combination is making my head spin. :smallconfused:
I'm a mysterious figure. I hide in shadows and attack with surprise… but I attack with a weapon that produces a loud noise and a huge cloud of fire and smoke.
.
I could see it, When you're teleporting all over the place, the loud sound doesn't really ruin your method of surprise.
That said, Way of the Shadow Monk specifies Advantage on your next Melee attack, not your next attack. So You do lose that going Firearms
Khrysaes
2022-06-12, 12:45 PM
For a Monk with a gun,
consider the GUNK.
Pack Tactics does a good video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmYyJx5LUGI
V.Human/C.Lineage Monk w/ Gunner feat at level 1.
Monk levels 1->5
Shadow Monk.
Sharpshooter level 4.
1 Fighter level at level 6 -> Archery Fighting Style
so level 6 = 5 monk/1 fighter
Also consider 6 shadow monk/3 gloomstalker ranger to pair the same fighting style as 1 fighter, but also getting all of the goodies of Gloomstalker which is synergistic with shadow monk.
It would work with Harengon too, just a bit later.
tiornys
2022-06-12, 12:57 PM
For the Paladin/Hexblade(/Peace), start Paladin so you get heavy armor proficiency (multiclassing into Paladin only gets you medium armor) unless you're rolling stats and get very good rolls. Paladin requires you to have 13 Str + 13 Cha to multiclass in and out, and it's cheaper to have 15 Str for Plate armor (no move penalty) than 13 Str + 14 Dex for max benefit from medium armor. Then take 1 level of Hexblade for Cha SAD + Shield + Eldritch Blast, then Paladin to 6 for Aura of Protection.
Past level 7 (Redemption 6/Hexblade 1) it depends a lot on how you want to play and what your party is doing.
Hexblade 2 mainly gives you invocations. Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast is a great way to have a strong ranged presence, and excellent if your party regularly drops zones of nasty to push enemies into. If most of your party is ranged make this a priority; if it's mostly melee and no one ever drops Web/Plant Growth/Sickening Radiance/Sleet Storm/Wall of Fire/etc. then this can be safely skipped.
Peace Cleric 1 is great for the party, but really only one person in the party needs to take it. Most casters get more from the dip than you do since they will upgrade no/light armor to medium armor+shields, and therefore there is probably someone else in the party who is a better choice to be the one who dips Peace. If no one else is doing it then go ahead and grab it--and consider just continuing to level Cleric until at least Peace 6. Full caster spell slot progression is great for feeding your smites, and Clerics have plenty of spells where a low Wis modifier is of no or minor importance. That includes Spirit Guardians where the control effect has no save, and you always inflict at least half of the damage.
Paladin 8 gets you the Redemption aura and an ASI if you're interested in those things. If you go there, probably continue to Paladin 12 for Improved Divine Smite and the ASI.
Hexblade 3 doesn't really get you enough to be worthwhile, but it might be worth going Hexblade X instead of Peace Cleric X if you're shifting to a more ranged/control presence.
Personally, I would aim for Redemption 6/Hexblade X or Redemption 6/Hexblade 1-2/Peace X depending on how the party played during tier 1 and early tier 2.
Khrysaes
2022-06-12, 01:23 PM
For the Paladin/Hexblade you could consider multiclassing Bard or Sorcerer for the increased Spell Slots.
Personally Since you are upping CHA, I would go Swords Bard. Unfortunately I think to get the most out of it you would need 14 swords bard, 4 paladin, 2 warlock.
But, more high level spell slots means more smites.
Swords bard gives you options to use your bardic inspiration to boost the party or your own combat, and they recharge on short rest at level 5.
Swords bard 10 gets you 5th level spells and magical secrets, meaning you can still get Greater Find Steed, if that is something you want.
Few, been busy as heck, but I'm looking forward to replaying to everyone!
An important thing to ask yourself for any multiclassing, for each level starting at level 1, will you have fun playing whatever you have? What your character looks like at level 10 is important, but what about level 3? Level 5? If at level 5 your character is warrior X/spellcaster Y, are you ok not having Extra Attack or 3rd level spells? Suppose at level 4 you want 2/2 in whatever classes. Are you ok with not only not having your subclass for those who get it at level 3, but you also don't have an ASI, meaning if point buy you won't have an 18 and/or not getting a feat? The answer to these questions and others can very well be, yes, you're ok with it enjoying what you have. That's great, but be sure that answer is yes, you're ok with it enjoying what you have. If the answer is no then by obviousness you will not be having fun playing the game because you will be at the level for awhile. At the extreme you might even want a new character because yours "sucks", not giving the fun you thought you would have because the shtick you were looking forwards to isn't happening until a long real world time later when you would finally reach the level it happens.
As long as for each level you like what you have you're doing it right.
Yeah, that's the hard part for sure, any new character I make now will be level 5, but it's rough for the Pali, depending on where the stats fall, I may need a hexblade level right away, delaying Extra Attack to six. Now, Eldritch Blash and Booming Blade can make up for that, a little, but it's an issue for sure. I think my main issue with multiclassing is choice paralysis. My group normally rolls for stats, in a way that each player rolls and the group takes it, and we end up pretty powerful to start, so it makes waiting on ASI and feats easier. The only time I've had a harder time not taking an ASI is my Artificer Battlesmith, cause Int controls SO MANY THINGS for a battle smith, like, it makes Hexblades Cha look like less of a big deal. But I still took magic initiate anyway. Cause having 2 cantrips, one of them HAVING to be mending was killing my very soul.
Perhaps it's just me, but that combination is making my head spin. :smallconfused:
I'm a mysterious figure. I hide in shadows and attack with surprise… but I attack with a weapon that produces a loud noise and a huge cloud of fire and smoke.
That said, what multiclassing you pick has to be influenced by how you are going to be playing the character. Starting at level 10? Go for it. Starting at level 1 and playing through, be a bit more careful.
As a poster here already said, it can be a bit sucky when all the other players at the table are enjoying feats and ASIs and you are sitting there with a level 2/2 character, and at least 2 more levels before you get a feat.
I mean, they may be a Monk for Six Levels, but flavor-wise they're a bounty hunter, and it gives me those classic vibes of a sign being shot out of nowhere. I mean, most people still hear a snipper after all, there skills are is stealing that first shot, to me it doesn't seam THAT wild, and thus far, is the most fun Gunner concept I've had
I could see it, When you're teleporting all over the place, the loud sound doesn't really ruin your method of surprise.
That said, Way of the Shadow Monk specifies Advantage on your next Melee attack, not your next attack. So You do lose that going Firearms
That's fair, though the mobility at least gives a LOT of options, not to mention, SO MANY of the spells are good. I mean, for instance, if I get to introduce her in the dungeon of the Mad Mage, she could literally queue up dark version, put it on two other people, take a short rest, and everyone has dark vision for 7 hours. That is some Warlock level of flexibility. Honestly, she would pair super well with a Hexblade combat-wise, Short rest masters, the Warlock that fights up close and the Monk who hangs back. Tossing out Darkness with Ki so their devil sight could make a crazy sneak attack.
For a Monk with a gun,
consider the GUNK.
Pack Tactics does a good video.
V.Human/C.Lineage Monk w/ Gunner feat at level 1.
Monk levels 1->5
Shadow Monk.
Sharpshooter level 4.
1 Fighter level at level 6 -> Archery Fighting Style
so level 6 = 5 monk/1 fighter
Also consider 6 shadow monk/3 gloomstalker ranger to pair the same fighting style as 1 fighter, but also getting all of the goodies of Gloomstalker which is synergistic with shadow monk.
It would work with Harengon too, just a bit later.
Yeah, that video did inspire me, when I saw it, a character formed in my mind super fast. I mean, V Human or Custome Origin makes the build work better, faster, but I like how the Harengon synergies with it in interesting ways, the boost to innovation, the extra mobility options, how the bonus to Dex saves will play with Evasion. Ya know, I find it funny that it slipped his mind the Rangers also get a fighting style. 2 Fighting styles aren't bad, but since Gloom Stalker already plays so well into Shadow Monk, it seems a little unneeded.
I think for me, I'd wanna go my first 6 levels in Monk. I wanted the Extra Attack ASAP, and the Shadow teleport is too good to wait. Then Start digging into a ranger, prolly straight to level 3, then from there, ya can kinda go with what feels right. Evasion is great, so that's a good pick-up, but you might want that Feat, you DO have to wait longer for Sharp Shooter after all, but then at least another Feat is right around the corner. Then Dig into Assassin. Gunner is a needed first grab, and Sharp Shooter after, not only for the damage but range. Plus you can have backup daggers. I played a rogue that literally had more feats than he knew what to do with, and did sharp shooter mainly with daggers. But man, think about throwing alert into this. Crazy "I'm going first" energy, maybe someone has gift of alacrity, you could be looking at like, initiatives as high as 40 if you play your cards right xD
But yeah, I like good builds, I like strong builds, but I'm not looking to Mid Max. I play an Eladrin Battle Smith Artificer because I like the Eladrin's flavor. Given how weapon profs can be changed out for Tool, and how limited Artificer Cantrips are, High Elf would easier be the mechanically better choice, but I like my seasonal mood swings.
What level are these starting at?
For the first build, what do you want online? If you don't mind delaying Sneak Attack specifically you could start with Ranger. Level 2 gets you a fighting style so no need for the Fughter Dip. If you need two styles hit Ranger 4 and use the ASI feat for it. I'd also recommend Ranger 5 for extra attack.
For the Paladin Build Hexblade first just 1 level. Levels 2 and 3 are fluff and flavor more than crunch.
The Ranger point is a good one, but Pali's seem to get better stuff at level 1, also I think I want the gunner to focus on monk for the first 6 levels, though the ranger side does tempt. The shadow teleporting is too cool not the make monk the one I cross level 5 with vs ranger. Also, while Hexblade's level one dip is important, and 3 might not be needs, I think you underestimating level 2. That not only get's invocations, but you go from 1 Warlock spell, to 2. not only do those refresh on a short rest, but let us not forgot, Hexblades get the shield spell. A spell they more then likely won't use as soon as they hit level 3, but in a Pali, is pretty dang nuts.
For the Paladin/Hexblade(/Peace), start Paladin so you get heavy armor proficiency (multiclassing into Paladin only gets you medium armor) unless you're rolling stats and get very good rolls. Paladin requires you to have 13 Str + 13 Cha to multiclass in and out, and it's cheaper to have 15 Str for Plate armor (no move penalty) than 13 Str + 14 Dex for max benefit from medium armor. Then take 1 level of Hexblade for Cha SAD + Shield + Eldritch Blast, then Paladin to 6 for Aura of Protection.
Past level 7 (Redemption 6/Hexblade 1) it depends a lot on how you want to play and what your party is doing.
Hexblade 2 mainly gives you invocations. Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast is a great way to have a strong ranged presence, and excellent if your party regularly drops zones of nasty to push enemies into. If most of your party is ranged make this a priority; if it's mostly melee and no one ever drops Web/Plant Growth/Sickening Radiance/Sleet Storm/Wall of Fire/etc. then this can be safely skipped.
Peace Cleric 1 is great for the party, but really only one person in the party needs to take it. Most casters get more from the dip than you do since they will upgrade no/light armor to medium armor+shields, and therefore there is probably someone else in the party who is a better choice to be the one who dips Peace. If no one else is doing it then go ahead and grab it--and consider just continuing to level Cleric until at least Peace 6. Full caster spell slot progression is great for feeding your smites, and Clerics have plenty of spells where a low Wis modifier is of no or minor importance. That includes Spirit Guardians where the control effect has no save, and you always inflict at least half of the damage.
Paladin 8 gets you the Redemption aura and an ASI if you're interested in those things. If you go there, probably continue to Paladin 12 for Improved Divine Smite and the ASI.
Hexblade 3 doesn't really get you enough to be worthwhile, but it might be worth going Hexblade X instead of Peace Cleric X if you're shifting to a more ranged/control presence.
Personally, I would aim for Redemption 6/Hexblade X or Redemption 6/Hexblade 1-2/Peace X depending on how the party played during tier 1 and early tier 2.
Yeah, I can agree with a lot of this, not only is a Peace dip just good, but it plays well with the Oath of Redemption thematically, I think Hexblade can as well, with some flavoring. and yeah level 3 in hexblade is a ponderance. Pact of the blade is pretty meh, and while having two level two spells that come back on a short rest, honestly, I'm most excited to have to short rest replenishing shield spells on a paladin. Considering how meh Pact of the Blade IS on this build, if I ever dip into level 3, it'd prolly be because we lack a wizard or something, and then I might consider weakening Edritch blast to get the book of ancient secrets, as well as more cantrips flexibility. But that's an if. Granted, I after I get what I need from Hexblade and Peace Cleric, I'm not sure if I should go straight up Oath of Redemption, or toss my lot into a 4th class.
For the Paladin/Hexblade you could consider multiclassing Bard or Sorcerer for the increased Spell Slots.
Personally Since you are upping CHA, I would go Swords Bard. Unfortunately I think to get the most out of it you would need 14 swords bard, 4 paladin, 2 warlock.
But, more high level spell slots means more smites.
Swords bard gives you options to use your bardic inspiration to boost the party or your own combat, and they recharge on short rest at level 5.
Swords bard 10 gets you 5th level spells and magical secrets, meaning you can still get Greater Find Steed, if that is something you want.
Honestly, a fun concept to consider, but I already want to play an Elquance bard one day, and this Redemption build is me partly wanting to stay as Paladiney as possible, I want it to feel like an Oath of Redemption Paladin at its core. Getting a big of stuff from Hexblade adds flexibility, and allowing him to be a stronger caster while still being a good melee, and Peace is just way too good of a thematic and mechanic one-level dip. Maybe I will go full Pali after 2-4 level dip in Hexblade, and 1-2 level dip in Peace Cleric, but I know their features platue a little after 8.
Though I'll have to consider mixing Hexblade and Sword Bard, full casters don't mix THAT well most times, but this feels like an exception.
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