Fengut... the best spell we all forget about.

[CopperElfCleric]

Fengut: A 1st level arcane spell that allows a save and SR. But if failed, you're pretty much immobilized for a quick kill. Perfect for a Bladesinger or a Rogue with a Fengut wand. Or simply a 20'th level Sorcerer that casts the spell and just cuts your neck open with a simple dagger.

I forgot about Fengut until a player used it last night. An elven Bladesinger: Swashbuckler 5/ Beguiler 5/ Bladesinger 10.
I was the DM and it was a party of 5. They were fighting a 25'th level Fey'ri Duskblade. To make a long story short.... I was afraid the party wouldn't make it past the Fey'ri Lord. They were doing poorly TBH. Suddenly, the Bladesinger goes into his Bladesong trance and casts Fengut on the Fey'ri Lord, and to my astonishment, that 1'st level spell incapacitated the enemy, based on saving throws, spell resistance and die rolls. Once the spell took effect, the elf gracefully put his Thinblade through the neck of the Fey'ri. Battle over. As a DM I was blustered and amazed.

A powerful Fey'ri Lord Duskblade with a CR of 27 was slain by a CR 20 Bladesinger using a 1'st level spell. I am a good DM now for 30 years (yes i'm old at 48 winters), and this was a first.

Anybody else have a good Fengut story, or a opinion on the Fengut spell and it's uses and abilities?

[Gruftzwerg]

I see the spell for the first time.

I have a question to ask.

You say it was a CR 27 Duskbalde.
And we talk about a 1st lvl Illusion spell DC = 10 + 1 + ability modifier Fortitude & Will save.
Duskbaldes get good Fortitude and Will saves.

Did the Duskblade really failed both saves? Must have been really poor rolls.
Am I missing something here?

edit:
LINK to the spell (https://web.archive.org/web/20090601221215/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030706a)

edit2: dunno where I did pulled that will save..^^ my bad maybe I should go to bed^^

[JNAProductions]

Did the NPC just have a piddling amount of HP?

Nauseated is a nasty condition, but you can’t Coup people until they’re helpless.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd be able to instantly kill them just because they're skipping their standard action for the round. I mean, they'll probably die because of action economy, but not to a single dagger attack.

I personally prefer color spray, as it's so much better in the early game and can still blind enemies later on. But fengut is fine.

[RandomPeasant]

fengut is probably the best offensive 1st level spell to cast at high levels. You pop it out of a lesser quicken rod and it's a save-or-lose (though not quite to the degree OP is suggesting unless we're glossing over "and they beat on him until he died"). It's not as good as color spray against low-level opposition because it's single-target, but fishing for a win like that is very strong. It's also by far the best pick for a Beguiler's first Advanced Learning.

[Gemini476]

Yeah, all Nausea does is prevent you from doing anything but a single move action. Hitting nauseated people doesn't even give you any combat bonuses, let alone let you Coup de Grace them... but I guess that also kind of doesn't matter when it's kinda-sorta a single-target save-or-lose Time Stop? 1d4+1 free rounds to do whatever is a lot.

Now, to be fair, Fey-ri do have -2 Constitution - although that's not a lot when compared to a level 25 (assuming Fey'ri is +2 CR) Duskblade's +14 base+epic save bonus, though, especially when the target DC is... what, 10 (base) + 1 (spell level) + 13 (36 INT) = 24? That's a 50% chance of failing the save without giving the Duskblade any magic items whatsoever, and it mostly just goes down from there. Give them the stuff that's expected from a CR27 encounter and I suspect that the chance of failure would be way down.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, all Nausea does is prevent you from doing anything but a single move action. Hitting nauseated people doesn't even give you any combat bonuses, let alone let you Coup de Grace them... but I guess that also kind of doesn't matter when it's kinda-sorta a single-target save-or-lose Time Stop? 1d4+1 free rounds to do whatever is a lot.

Now, to be fair, Fey-ri do have -2 Constitution - although that's not a lot when compared to a level 25 (assuming Fey'ri is +2 CR) Duskblade's +14 base+epic save bonus, though, especially when the target DC is... what, 10 (base) + 1 (spell level) + 13 (36 INT) = 24? That's a 50% chance of failing the save without giving the Duskblade any magic items whatsoever, and it mostly just goes down from there. Give them the stuff that's expected from a CR27 encounter and I suspect that the chance of failure would be way down.

Do Fey'Ri have Spell Resistance?
Because it's a SR: Yes spell.

Admittedly, beating SR is a reasonable thing to do, even to higher-level foes, but it's another chance of failure.

[CopperElfCleric]

fengut is probably the best offensive 1st level spell to cast at high levels. You pop it out of a lesser quicken rod and it's a save-or-lose (though not quite to the degree OP is suggesting unless we're glossing over "and they beat on him until he died"). It's not as good as color spray against low-level opposition because it's single-target, but fishing for a win like that is very strong. It's also by far the best pick for a Beguiler's first Advanced Learning.

Exactly! Or a Bladsinger. lol

[JNAProductions]

Exactly! Or a Bladsinger. lol

Well... Maybe not.

It's Mind-Affecting, so Mind Blank makes you immune to it. Or being mindless. It also doesn't work on undead, since it doesn't affect objects and is a Fort save.

It can be worth casting at high levels, which is pretty good for a 1st-level spell! But... Only if your opponent actually has a chance of being affected by it, which many foes won't.

[CopperElfCleric]

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd be able to instantly kill them just because they're skipping their standard action for the round. I mean, they'll probably die because of action economy, but not to a single dagger attack.

I personally prefer color spray, as it's so much better in the early game and can still blind enemies later on. But fengut is fine.

If a opponent is prone, then with a Bladesingers trance, and that free action you can deal over 75% damage on a single target under Fengut in that 1 attack alone. Massive damage means you don't bounce back up. It could be Melee damage that deals over half HP damage. Could be a second spell instead. As a prone PC or NPC you can't do much more in a few seconds than get hurt very badly if your CR levels are on point and not unbalanced.

[JNAProductions]

If a opponent is prone, then with a Bladesingers trance, and that free action you can deal over 75% damage on a single target under Fengut in that 1 attack alone. Massive damage means you don't bounce back up. It could be Melee damage that deals over half HP damage. Could be a second spell instead. As a prone PC or NPC you can't do much more in a few seconds than get hurt very badly if your CR levels are on point and not unbalanced.

Erm... Why would the opponent be prone?

[Maat Mons]

This is exactly why the optimization community is so fond of immunities and rerolls. It doesn't matter how big and bad you are. If you roll a natural 1 vs. an SoL, you're SoL. Well, you could get Steadfast Determination for Fort saves, but you know what I mean.

[CopperElfCleric]

Erm... Why would the opponent be prone?

If Fengut is successful... they can barely make a move. hence, quick kill. They cannot cast spells, cannot attack at all, and can barely talk. HELLO... death.

[Zanos]

If Fengut is successful... they can barely make a move. hence, quick kill. They cannot cast spells, cannot attack at all, and can barely talk. HELLO... death.
Nauseated creatures can still make move actions and shouldn't be prone unless something else made them prone.

Not that it isn't a good first level spell, but I think you misunderstood what it's effect is and let your players get away with a free kill.

[CopperElfCleric]

Nauseated creatures can still make move actions and shouldn't be prone unless something else made them prone.

Not that it isn't a good first level spell, but I think you misunderstood what it's effect is and let your players get away with a free kill.

No, no, no... Not at all. I know the rules and regulations of canon. Maybe prone was the wrong term. Incapacitated is more like it. Any move you could possibly make once stricken is far, far less than one could do if you make your save.

What could a enemy do with his feeble action under the Fengut spell that a skilled PC couldn't dispatch?

[icefractal]

What could a enemy do with his feeble action under the Fengut spell that a skilled PC couldn't dispatch?Survive the 2-5 rounds the spell lasts.

Don't get me wrong, it is a potent spell when it lands, and in most cases having the foe out of the fight that long means they get defeated. But a tough foe could potentially endure through the spell (as it doesn't reduce their defense very much) and resume fighting again.

[sleepyphoenixx]

fengut is probably the best offensive 1st level spell to cast at high levels. You pop it out of a lesser quicken rod and it's a save-or-lose (though not quite to the degree OP is suggesting unless we're glossing over "and they beat on him until he died"). It's not as good as color spray against low-level opposition because it's single-target, but fishing for a win like that is very strong. It's also by far the best pick for a Beguiler's first Advanced Learning.
If your enemy is evil you could just use Vision of Punishment. 1st level, natively swift action, nauseated for 1 round/3 levels on a failed will save, sickened otherwise, SR:yes.

The only real downside is that it only works on evil targets and requires a sacrifice, being sanctified.
You should be able to deal with 1d2 Str damage at level 20 though, especially if it only happens after the spell duration expires.


No, no, no... Not at all. I know the rules and regulations of canon. Maybe prone was the wrong term. Incapacitated is more like it. Any move you could possibly make once stricken is far, far less than one could do if you make your save.

What could a enemy do with his feeble action under the Fengut spell that a skilled PC couldn't dispatch?

Move action teleport would probably work. There's some cheap boots with that in the MIC iirc, and Shadow Hand adepts also get one, making Martial Study an option.
Otherwise you can always use your move action to get on a mount and have it take you to safety, assuming you have one.

Mostly though i'd build a CR 27 enemy (that isn't supposed to be fodder) to have iterative defenses to avoid this exact outcome.
A Third Eye: Clarity isn't exactly breaking the bank here.

[H_H_F_F]

It's a good spell, and it's nice that low level tactics can get occasional uses in high level. I don't think it's a bad thing for a party to encounter non-immune enemies once in a while.

You're being a bit vague about how the combat actually ended. An epic duskblade should be buffed pretty hard, with high saves and high AC, miss chance, energy resistances, etcetera. Even without having anything useful to do with a move action, tumbling a few feet to deny full attacks could let them survive even after failing to that save. The way you originally described it, it sounded like you accidentally confused nauseated and incapacitated. Which is fine, everybody makes mistakes. Still a very good spell, but you overstated it because you thought it allowed coup de grace.

Assuming that's not the case, could you give a more elaborate description of how the combat went?

[Biggus]

Not that it makes a big difference, but IMO fey'ri are more like CR 1 than CR 2. I've used them a couple of times as a DM and they underperformed both times.

[Metastachydium]

Well... Maybe not.

It's Mind-Affecting, so Mind Blank makes you immune to it. Or being mindless.

Or being a PLANT (why on earth do people keep forgetting about poor planties?). Or a woodling. Or a swarm with no hive mind. Or a feytouched. Or one of the other things with immunity to those.

[Thurbane]

Only a 1 round duration, but I find an oft overlooked spell is Heartache (BoVD, Cleric 1); Will save or helpless for 1 round.

...and we all know helpless opens up the target for coup de grace; have an ally delay until the target fails.

[Anthrowhale]

... Heartache (BoVD, Cleric 1)...
Definite agree here.

It fits well in the standard setup where a party has a fighter in front and the cleric behind. Relative to Fengut, I'd generally rate helpless 1 round > daze 1+1d4 rounds and the average Will save is lower than the average Fort save.

Of course, having access to both is even better. Fengut for an enemy Wizard and Heartache for the enemy Rogue & Fighter.

[CopperElfCleric]

It's a good spell, and it's nice that low level tactics can get occasional uses in high level. I don't think it's a bad thing for a party to encounter non-immune enemies once in a while.

You're being a bit vague about how the combat actually ended. An epic duskblade should be buffed pretty hard, with high saves and high AC, miss chance, energy resistances, etcetera. Even without having anything useful to do with a move action, tumbling a few feet to deny full attacks could let them survive even after failing to that save. The way you originally described it, it sounded like you accidentally confused nauseated and incapacitated. Which is fine, everybody makes mistakes. Still a very good spell, but you overstated it because you thought it allowed coup de grace.

Assuming that's not the case, could you give a more elaborate description of how the combat went?

Epic level Module

Yes. 5 to 5. Four Vampire spawn and the boss. He was wicked powerful without my help.

Enemy 1: Fey'ri Vampire Lord Duskblade 20/ Spellsword 5. For a total of CR 30. (Vampire Lord template).

PC 1: Elf Swashbuckler 5/ Beguiler 5/ Bladesinger 10. CR 20
PC 2: Dwarf Fighter 3/ Favored soul 20 of Vergadain. CR 23
PC 3: Gnome Rogue 10/ Temple Raider 10 of Baravar Cloakshadow. CR 20
PC 4: Halfling Druid 20 of Sheela Peryroyl. CR 20
PC 5: Drow Bard 15/ Arcane Archer 5. CR 21

More tomorrow after work. Sorry for the delay.

[Zanos]

I don't mean to rain on your game but I don't think a CR 30 vampire lord is actually CR 30 if you don't apply their features. A vampire lord should be immune to mind-affecting spells, have DR 10/magic & silver, fast healing 8, and does not actually die unless it's tracked back to its place of rest and decapitated and incinerated and consecrated.

[Buufreak]

Oh just the mountain of "did you read the rules?" Just from a quick google: undead are immune to mind effects, undead are immune to anything requiring a fortitude save, undead are immune to critical hits, and by extension, any form of coup de grace, vampire lord isn't killed from damage, they have a long list of specific conditions needed to actually kill them, vampire lords do not create vampire spawns (which is one way to cheese a 1hd vampire instead of spawn).

[Thurbane]

I suspect from some of OPs previous posts that their table plays with a LOT of houserules, but I could be wrong.

[CopperElfCleric]

I suspect from some of OPs previous posts that their table plays with a LOT of houserules, but I could be wrong.

You are right, but it's as simple as I cut, copied and pasted the wrong BbEg. We are currently running 4 different campaigns, with lots of Modules and tons of enemies and BbEg's, so I posted the Fey'ri from our undead campaign.

I meant to post Fey'ri Lord, Wererat: Duskblade 10/ Cleric 10/ Mystic Theurge 5 of Beshaba. (Lycanthrope template; Wererat). CR 29

[H_H_F_F]

Outsiders can't become lycanthropes - but that doesn't matter, your campaign and all.

Could we get a general idea of what combat looked like? No need for a turn-by-turn exact breakdown - just how much hp+buffing did the bbeg have when he got fenguted, what did he do for the rest of his turns, and how long did it take the party to take him down. Also, if there was any special means of defeating him other than normal HP damage against full-AC full-saves enemy.

[Thunder999]

If 1st level spells for nauseated is your idea of amazing, I suggest you check out wall of smoke, 1 10ft square/CL of save vs nauseated smoke, SR:no too, so somewhat more likely to actually work on higher level enemies.

[Seward]

This is exactly why the optimization community is so fond of immunities and rerolls. It doesn't matter how big and bad you are. If you roll a natural 1 vs. an SoL, you're SoL. Well, you could get Steadfast Determination for Fort saves, but you know what I mean.

Agreed. If you are epic and don't have an insignificant amount of your WBL invested in a 0 wish Lucksword or other similar reroll item it's like exiting the house without wearing pants or underwear.

That said, maybe the rerolls got used up earlier in what sounds like a protracted fight. Rolling a 1 on the spell and maybe a 1 on massive damage can wreck anybody vulnerable to those two effects. I'm not sure what the advantage is over color spray though (which will stun anybody for 1 round if they can be stunned and isn't blind, which will be a larger set of folks than nauseated, has a small area effect and also an illusion). Sure might be good on something with much lower fort save than will save but on an epic duskblade it should be a natural 1 either way.

[Bohandas]

Which book is this spell from

[H_H_F_F]

If 1st level spells for nauseated is your idea of amazing, I suggest you check out wall of smoke, 1 10ft square/CL of save vs nauseated smoke, SR:no too, so somewhat more likely to actually work on higher level enemies.

A creature passing through the wall saves or becomes nauseated for 1 round. Fengut is 2-5 rounds, no further saves.

[Thurbane]

Which book is this spell from

Online only, I believe: https://web.archive.org/web/20031216075826/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030706a

[RandomPeasant]

A creature passing through the wall saves or becomes nauseated for 1 round. Fengut is 2-5 rounds, no further saves.

The wall is another example of something that is good at low levels because it can be used in a multi-target capacity, but not as impressive as fengut to pop out of a quicken rod. As I said, the spell is not one you cast at 1st level. It is one you cast at high levels, because "maybe you just lose" is an extremely powerful upside for resources you weren't using anyway.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The wall is another example of something that is good at low levels because it can be used in a multi-target capacity, but not as impressive as fengut to pop out of a quicken rod. As I said, the spell is not one you cast at 1st level. It is one you cast at high levels, because "maybe you just lose" is an extremely powerful upside for resources you weren't using anyway.

I think at high levels most builds have better things to do with their swift action (and Quicken Rod charges, if they have one) than pop out a single-target 1st that's incredibly unlikely to affect anything relevant.
I'd at least pick something that has either an area, gets multiple tries over several rounds or causes a partial effect like shaken or sickened on a successful save to soften the target up for my standard action.

I can see using Fengut, but more likely with Chain on multiple weaker targets to make up for the low save.

Sure, it makes for a nice story the one time you succeed, but why would you buy a lesser quicken rod if you weren't going to use it?
I can understand getting an extend or sculpt one just in case, they're cheap after all,
but if you're spending 35k on a quicken rod i'd expect a little more than a single target gamble you're unlikely to win.

[Thunder999]

I'd generally take a shorter duration but multi-target, SR:no with a bit of control (it's got the usual concealment stuff and is a lingering hazard to anyone walking through it later after all). AoE means you have a decent chance of at least one enemy failing, 1 round isn't a lot, but isn't nothing when you consider how fast fights can end at higher level.

[CopperElfCleric]

Just saying... Not casting this as a low level caster. But a High Level caster using a low level spell. It can work wonders regardless of die roll. Maybe as a quickened spell to follow another spell to help incapacitate or destroy in a party. Not saying a 5th level arcane caster can beat a 20th level PC with this spell without help. But a 20'th level caster using this spell vs a 20th level enemy caster can totally win the battle. I suppose everyone loses against this spell with a die roll of 1 unless you're a LeShay. lol.

[CopperElfCleric]

Yeah, all Nausea does is prevent you from doing anything but a single move action. Hitting nauseated people doesn't even give you any combat bonuses, let alone let you Coup de Grace them... but I guess that also kind of doesn't matter when it's kinda-sorta a single-target save-or-lose Time Stop? 1d4+1 free rounds to do whatever is a lot.

Now, to be fair, Fey-ri do have -2 Constitution - although that's not a lot when compared to a level 25 (assuming Fey'ri is +2 CR) Duskblade's +14 base+epic save bonus, though, especially when the target DC is... what, 10 (base) + 1 (spell level) + 13 (36 INT) = 24? That's a 50% chance of failing the save without giving the Duskblade any magic items whatsoever, and it mostly just goes down from there. Give them the stuff that's expected from a CR27 encounter and I suspect that the chance of failure would be way down.

Yes. Point is they are dead.

[H_H_F_F]

As said before, it's a very good spell which you seem to overestimate.

I personally prefer vision of punishment at high levels on PCs that can deal with low ability damage. It's a longer duration during high levels, it has better action economy, it targets will and not fort, and it has an effect even against enemies who save. The downsides are the target limitations and the sacrifice component.

Now, is Fengut good? Yes, as has been discussed. But it seems like you let it carry a stronger effect than it has by RAW.

It's pretty close to being save-or-lose on enemies which aren't immune to mind-affecting spells or fortitude. If you roll high, it's a lot of rounds when the enemy can't do much, offensively.

It is not a "Fengut-then-die" like your initial description implies. It's still a good option against low-fort, low-SR, non-immune foes, if you're out of higher level spells or want to preserve your slots.

[CopperElfCleric]

As said before, it's a very good spell which you seem to overestimate.

I personally prefer vision of punishment at high levels on PCs that can deal with low ability damage. It's a longer duration during high levels, it has better action economy, it targets will and not fort, and it has an effect even against enemies who save. The downsides are the target limitations and the sacrifice component.

Now, is Fengut good? Yes, as has been discussed. But it seems like you let it carry a stronger effect than it has by RAW.

It's pretty close to being save-or-lose on enemies which aren't immune to mind-affecting spells or fortitude. If you roll high, it's a lot of rounds when the enemy can't do much, offensively.

It is not a "Fengut-then-die" like your initial description implies. It's still a good option against low-fort, low-SR, non-immune foes, if you're out of higher level spells or want to preserve your slots.

Yes. correct. but once incapacitated you are done. If you have a companion, the enemy is done.

[Ignimortis]

Yes. correct. but once incapacitated you are done. If you have a companion, the enemy is done.

But you aren't incapacitated, you're just nauseated. Sure, it's a pretty decent disable, but it's not really deadly unless somehow the epic-level spellcaster (even a Duskblade) just stands in place (and since they have a move action, they don't have to) and lets the enemies wail on them. You can't coup-de-grace a nauseated target, you don't even get any combat bonus against them - they just lose all of their offensive potential, but retain all AC, saves, concealment and other defenses.

[H_H_F_F]

Yes. correct. but once incapacitated you are done. If you have a companion, the enemy is done.

Fengut does not incapacitate you. Unlike the way you ruled it, it has 0 impact on your defenses.

Get past the save/SR/immunity and roll high on your d4, and combat against a single enemy is pretty much won - but they won't be "done" any faster than they would otherwise, they'd just be unable to hit you in the meantime.

[Crake]

Enemy 1: Fey'ri Vampire Lord Duskblade 20/ Spellsword 5. For a total of CR 30. (Vampire Lord template).

Can we stop and take a moment to discuss about how the fey'ri vampire lord was immune to this spell on 3 fronts? Firstly, it's a fortitude save, undead are immune to effects that require a fortitude save, unless it also affects objects, which this spell doesn't. Second, it's mind-affecting, which undead are immune to. Finally, the target requires a living creature, which undead are not.

Regardless of how OP decided to rule nausea, the fey'ri was never a valid target for the spell in the first place.

Oh, also, reducing a vampire lord to 0 hp doesn't kill them anyway, they just poof back off to their soil.

[H_H_F_F]

Can we stop and take a moment to discuss about how the fey'ri vampire lord was immune to this spell on 3 fronts? Firstly, it's a fortitude save, undead are immune to effects that require a fortitude save, unless it also affects objects, which this spell doesn't. Second, it's mind-affecting, which undead are immune to. Finally, the target requires a living creature, which undead are not.

Regardless of how OP decided to rule nausea, the fey'ri was never a valid target for the spell in the first place.

Oh, also, reducing a vampire lord to 0 hp doesn't kill them anyway, they just poof back off to their soil.

OP later explained that he got his NPC Fey'ri duskblades confused, and posted a different version. That one had the issue of being a lycanthrope outsider, which isn't allowed, but that's a minor issue.

I personally think that OP ruling Fengut itself wrong is more worthy of pointing out than target validity issues.

[CopperElfCleric]

Can we stop and take a moment to discuss about how the fey'ri vampire lord was immune to this spell on 3 fronts? Firstly, it's a fortitude save, undead are immune to effects that require a fortitude save, unless it also affects objects, which this spell doesn't. Second, it's mind-affecting, which undead are immune to. Finally, the target requires a living creature, which undead are not.

Regardless of how OP decided to rule nausea, the fey'ri was never a valid target for the spell in the first place.

Oh, also, reducing a vampire lord to 0 hp doesn't kill them anyway, they just poof back off to their soil.

{Scrubbed}

[H_H_F_F]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Didn't you already address this matter here?

You are right, but it's as simple as I cut, copied and pasted the wrong BbEg. We are currently running 4 different campaigns, with lots of Modules and tons of enemies and BbEg's, so I posted the Fey'ri from our undead campaign.

I meant to post Fey'ri Lord, Wererat: Duskblade 10/ Cleric 10/ Mystic Theurge 5 of Beshaba. (Lycanthrope template; Wererat). CR 29

[CopperElfCleric]

Didn't you already address this matter here?

{Scrubbed}

[Buufreak]

I'm not sure if you are trying to be cute, funny, or something else, but this isn't helping to elaborate on any of the questions being asked.

[H_H_F_F]

I'm not sure if you are trying to be cute, funny, or something else, but this isn't helping to elaborate on any of the questions being asked.

I don't thin there's much to elaborate on. Seems like OP ruled nausea wrong, and therefore believed Fengut to be the best spell ever. Even though he(?) originally overestimated it, he still says it's an awesome spell. Which, yeah, it is.

[CopperElfCleric]

Outsiders can't become lycanthropes - but that doesn't matter, your campaign and all.

Could we get a general idea of what combat looked like? No need for a turn-by-turn exact breakdown - just how much hp+buffing did the bbeg have when he got fenguted, what did he do for the rest of his turns, and how long did it take the party to take him down. Also, if there was any special means of defeating him other than normal HP damage against full-AC full-saves enemy.

Said Fey'ri had 120 HP and we went 15 rounds, with our party. There were 5 of us between levels 14 and 20. The semi-outsider had 2 Vrocks of HD 10 and 2 Nycaloths at CR 12 with him. after dispatching the true outsiders only the Fey'ri was left. All of us were below 50 HP by this time and the Fey'ri was at about 40 HP if I remember. Our divine caster was out of spells and going melee. Our arcane caster was down to 1st level spells. He cast Fengut with a spell DC of 21 for the spell. Maximized and quickened. Fey'ri failed SR and then rolled a 3 on his ST. Our elven Scout/ Wildrunner went into his last Feral Frenzy of the day and took his head off with a Skirmish attack as the Fey'ri was prone and could make no attacks or defensive actions. Any other 1st level spell would not have set this kill up.

[H_H_F_F]

Said Fey'ri had 120 HP and we went 15 rounds, with our party. There were 5 of us between levels 14 and 20. The semi-outsider had 2 Vrocks of HD 10 and 2 Nycaloths at CR 12 with him. after dispatching the true outsiders only the Fey'ri was left. All of us were below 50 HP by this time and the Fey'ri was at about 40 HP if I remember. Our divine caster was out of spells and going melee. Our arcane caster was down to 1st level spells. He cast Fengut with a spell DC of 21 for the spell. Maximized and quickened. Fey'ri failed SR and then rolled a 3 on his ST. Our elven Scout/ Wildrunner went into his last Feral Frenzy of the day and took his head off with a Skirmish attack as the Fey'ri was prone and could make no attacks or defensive actions. Any other 1st level spell would not have set this kill up.

Just to clarify, before making more comments: this is all in one round?

[CopperElfCleric]

Just to clarify, before making more comments: this is all in one round?

The final and last round was the Fengut + elven skirmish attack that took his head with a D 20 roll by the elven scout/ Wildrunner in his frenzy. The elven scout could not have slain him alone even with his D 20 roll. It was the Fengut spell that truly slain the Fey'ri Lord.

[H_H_F_F]

The final and last round was the Fengut + elven skirmish attack that took his head with a D 20 roll by the elven scout/ Wildrunner in his frenzy. The elven scout could not have slain him alone even with his D 20 roll. It was the Fengut spell that truly slain the Fey'ri Lord.

Agin, that's because you ruled Fengut wrong. nauseated has no effect on your defenses. Fengut gives you a few rounds in which the enemy is very unlikely to be able to hurt you, and pretty unlikely to be able to fully escape. That's often enough to win a fight.

But this has been explained multiple times by this point, and your story keeps changing - your original story has the bladesinger elegantly executing the enemy, and your original party presentation had no elven scout.

I don't get the unwillingness to simply say at this point "oh, I guess I misunderstood nauseated. Still - a great 1st level spell, right?"

To which we'd say "yeah, one of the best" and be done with this conversation.

[CopperElfCleric]

Agin, that's because you ruled Fengut wrong. nauseated has no effect on your defenses. Fengut gives you a few rounds in which the enemy is very unlikely to be able to hurt you, and pretty unlikely to be able to fully escape. That's often enough to win a fight.

But this has been explained multiple times by this point, and your story keeps changing - your original story has the bladesinger elegantly executing the enemy, and your original party presentation had no elven scout.

I don't get the unwillingness to simply say at this point "oh, I guess I misunderstood nauseated. Still - a great 1st level spell, right?"

To which we'd say "yeah, one of the best" and be done with this conversation.

Again, we are running 3 different campaigns of 3 different levels. I get confused. The Bladesinger kill was in a undead campaign. I already explained that in a previous post on this thread. The Fey'ri had his last defensiveness intact during the final kill, but wouldn't have died if not incapacitated by the empowered, quickened Fengut spell. That's all. Without the Fengut spell, and the elf scout/ Wildrunner we all may have died by the Fey'ri Lords coming Meteor swarm or chain lightning. it was epic.

[CopperElfCleric]

Just saying... after Finger of death, Power word Kill and other high level spells.... Fengut took the bastard down, with melee help from the Wildrunner elf. Our divine caster was sitting on a nest egg Miracle spell in case death was upon us, which it was. So we scolded the divine caster for not using it sooner, but we understand his halt to use it.

[H_H_F_F]

Again, we are running 3 different campaigns of 3 different levels. I get confused. The Bladesinger kill was in a undead campaign. I already explained that in a previous post on this thread. The Fey'ri had his last defensiveness intact during the final kill, but wouldn't have died if not incapacitated by the empowered, quickened Fengut spell. That's all. Without the Fengut spell, and the elf scout/ Wildrunner we all may have died by the Fey'ri Lords coming Meteor swarm or chain lightning. it was epic.

Sounds epic. I don't know how you got confused between a game you ran in which a bladesinger killed someone and a game you played in in which another character killed someone, when the entire point of the story was how impressed you were as a DM with the player using a first level spell to kill your BBEG, but whatever. That's not important.

If it wasn't a bladesinger then, who was the arcane caster that actually did it? Did they use a rod for the metamagic, or something else?

[CopperElfCleric]

Sounds epic. I don't know how you got confused between a game you ran in which a bladesinger killed someone and a game you played in in which another character killed someone, when the entire point of the story was how impressed you were as a DM with the player using a first level spell to kill your BBEG, but whatever. That's not important.

If it wasn't a bladesinger then, who was the arcane caster that actually did it? Did they use a rod for the metamagic, or something else?

Nym Nightsong: CN Shade Star Elf of Everlund; Rogue 5/ Shadowcaster 20 CR 27. I think the Shade template gives you a CR2, other versions give you a CR4 for the Shade template. Our DM went with CR2

[H_H_F_F]

Nym Nightsong: CN Shade Star Elf of Everlund; Rogue 5/ Shadowcaster 20 CR 27. I think the Shade template gives you a CR2, other versions give you a CR4 for the Shade template. Our DM went with CR2

I'm not an expert on shadow mysteries... how did the shadowcaster cast fengut?

[CopperElfCleric]

I'm not an expert on shadow mysteries... how did the shadowcaster cast fengut?

I received a scroll, and spent 2 days in study with it to find the path of shadow I could take to cast it.

[H_H_F_F]

I received a scroll, and spent 2 days in study with it to find the path of shadow I could take to cast it.

I... don't get how that works.

I also don't get how you moved from telling a story about a game you DMd for 20th level characters in which one of the players pulled out fengut and immediately executed the oponnent, utterly surprising and amazing you with how effective the spell is...

To a game where you were a player, discovered fengut yourself, used some homebrew to cast it as a shadowcaster to tremendous effect as a 25th level character.

"I got confused between campaigns" doesn't cut it at some point. The entire story was completely predicated in someone else pulling Fengut on you.

I genuinely don't understand why you're doing any of this at this point, so I'm out of the conversation.

My TL;DR for the entire thread, for anyone interested in Fengut:

Fengut is a very good first level spell. If you intend to use it, make sure you:
Understand exactly what nauseated does.
Remember that your save DC is still going to be pretty low, being a 1st level spell.
Keep in mind that "not being immune to nauseated" isn't enough to hit an oponnent with this; Anything immune to Fort saves wouldn't be affected by this, anything immune to [mind affecting] wouldn't be affected by this.

That's that from me on this thread. Thank you everyone for participating in the discussion.

[CopperElfCleric]

I... don't get how that works.

I also don't get how you moved from telling a story about a game you DMd for 20th level characters in which one of the players pulled out fengut and immediately executed the oponnent, utterly surprising and amazing you with how effective the spell is...

To a game where you were a player, discovered fengut yourself, used some homebrew to cast it as a shadowcaster to tremendous effect as a 25th level character.

"I got confused between campaigns" doesn't cut it at some point. The entire story was completely predicated in someone else pulling Fengut on you.

I genuinely don't understand why you're doing any of this at this point, so I'm out of the conversation.

My TL;DR for the entire thread, for anyone interested in Fengut:

Fengut is a very good first level spell. If you intend to use it, make sure you:
Understand exactly what nauseated does.
Remember that your save DC is still going to be pretty low, being a 1st level spell.
Keep in mind that "not being immune to nauseated" isn't enough to hit an oponnent with this; Anything immune to Fort saves wouldn't be affected by this, anything immune to [mind affecting] wouldn't be affected by this.

That's that from me on this thread. Thank you everyone for participating in the discussion.

Exit at your pleasure. You asked me about my PC and I told you. Fengut was cast by our other arcane caster, and I was amazed by the result. I shall now find a way to get that dang spell.

[Remuko]

The Fey'ri had his last defensiveness intact during the final kill, but wouldn't have died if not incapacitated by the empowered, quickened Fengut spell.

Incapacitated? Fengut doesnt incapacitate. Your previous comment also mentioned the person inflicted by Fengut was also prone. How/why was he prone? Fengut doesn't make you prone...

[Thurbane]

I think we've established that the OP may have attributed some extra qualities to Fengut that it doesn't have.

It feels a bit like we are just piling on him and beating a dead horse at this point.

[Remuko]

I think we've established that the OP may have attributed some extra qualities to Fengut that it doesn't have.

It feels a bit like we are just piling on him and beating a dead horse at this point.

i dont disagree but i dont see why OP hasn't just admitted it instead of avoiding it. after clarifying in detail how the fight actually went down OP could have easily explained the part where they now know they made an error instead of still acting like its the intended function/effect of the spell.

[redking]

Ofttimes on this forum contributors start with assumptions or homebrew that they have not disclosed to other contributors/readers, which is the cause of confusion. Clarity was achieved here ultimately, and I learnt a lot more about Fengut than I would have if the OP had not made some errors in how the spell worked.

[CopperElfCleric]

Description of the spell: "Fengut causes the victim's stomach to suddenly feel full and burbling with foul swamp mud. The rancid taste of rotting vegetation rises into the victim's throat and mouth, and his breath reeks of damp, rotting matter that is deep in the throes of putrefaction. The combined smell and taste is horribly nauseating to the victim, who becomes nauseated for the duration of the spell's effect. A nauseated creature cannot attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else that requires attention. The only action a nauseated creature can take is a single move action each round."

Once inflicted, the Fey'ri couldn't defend against the Wildrunners fey frenzy ability with his single move action. With the wildrunners full attack feral frenzy action, and the fey'ris single move action he died. I don't understand what is so confusing. Please enlighten me.

[Crake]

Description of the spell: "Fengut causes the victim's stomach to suddenly feel full and burbling with foul swamp mud. The rancid taste of rotting vegetation rises into the victim's throat and mouth, and his breath reeks of damp, rotting matter that is deep in the throes of putrefaction. The combined smell and taste is horribly nauseating to the victim, who becomes nauseated for the duration of the spell's effect. A nauseated creature cannot attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else that requires attention. The only action a nauseated creature can take is a single move action each round."

Once inflicted, the Fey'ri couldn't defend against the Wildrunners fey frenzy ability with his single move action. With the wildrunners full attack feral frenzy action, and the fey'ris single move action he died. I don't understand what is so confusing. Please enlighten me.

“Defending” isnt an action. There are actions you can take to IMPROVE your defenses, but you still have the standard defenses you would normally have were you attacking or otherwise acting normally.

[DarkWhisper]

"Fengut causes the victim's stomach to suddenly feel full and burbling with foul swamp mud. The rancid taste of rotting vegetation rises into the victim's throat and mouth, and his breath reeks of damp, rotting matter that is deep in the throes of putrefaction. The combined smell and taste is horribly nauseating to the victim, who becomes nauseated for the duration of the spell's effect. A nauseated creature cannot attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else that requires attention. The only action a nauseated creature can take is a single move action each round."
Removing fluff text and only leaving rules text.



Once inflicted, the Fey'ri couldn't defend against the Wildrunners fey frenzy ability with his single move action. With the wildrunners full attack feral frenzy action, and the fey'ris single move action he died. I don't understand what is so confusing. Please enlighten me.

What exactly did / does "couldn't defend" mean in your game ?

Because by the rules, a creature affected by Fengut is nauseated - which means it
- cannot attack
- cannot cast spells
- cannot concentrate on spells
- do anything that requires attention
- can only take a single move action each round

It does not mean that the victim
- is flat-footed
- is denied its DEX bonus to AC
- is helpless
- is incapacitated
- is losing any bonus from worn items (e.g. AC from Armor, save bonus a Cloak of Resistance,...)
- is losing its DR or any other special qualities (unless they take an action to initiate)

Or, more concisely,
- suffers any penality, lose any bonus, gain any condition not listed under the 'nauseated' condition (which is basically identical to the last two sentences of the spell description)

[lylsyly]

I bet you lot would rag on him for years if you could
"A surefire way to avoid mistakes - don't do anything." Dale H. Besterfield
"A person who never makes mistakes seldom makes anything else." Christine Friberg

[Bucky]

- can only take a single move action each round


This notably prevents them from using any Immediate action defenses.

[CopperElfCleric]

This notably prevents them from using any Immediate action defenses.

Thank you.

[CopperElfCleric]

Removing fluff text and only leaving rules text.



What exactly did / does "couldn't defend" mean in your game ?

Because by the rules, a creature affected by Fengut is nauseated - which means it
- cannot attack
- cannot cast spells
- cannot concentrate on spells
- do anything that requires attention
- can only take a single move action each round

It does not mean that the victim
- is flat-footed
- is denied its DEX bonus to AC
- is helpless
- is incapacitated
- is losing any bonus from worn items (e.g. AC from Armor, save bonus a Cloak of Resistance,...)
- is losing its DR or any other special qualities (unless they take an action to initiate)

Or, more concisely,
- suffers any penality, lose any bonus, gain any condition not listed under the 'nauseated' condition (which is basically identical to the last two sentences of the spell description)
If you cannot make an attack, or cast any spells or DO ANYTHING ELSE THAT REQUIRES ATTENTION, then how can you defend yourself against a full attack action, when defending yourself requires attention??

[Elysiume]

This is the first time I've seen an argument that being nauseated makes you incapable of defense, but I'm not clear as to the specifics of how you're running it. Is a nauseated character automatically hit by all attacks? Are they automatically critically hit by all attacks? Do they automatically fail some/all saves?

[CopperElfCleric]

This is the first time I've seen an argument that being nauseated makes you incapable of defense, but I'm not clear as to the specifics of how you're running it. Is a nauseated character automatically hit by all attacks? Are they automatically critically hit by all attacks? Do they automatically fail some/all saves?

No not at all. But how can a NPC enemy defend themselves against a feral frenzy full attack action on low HP's if they cannot do anything that requires attention? Doesn't blocking a sword require attention? What is it that is misunderstood?

[Elysiume]

Sounds like you're playing it along the lines of "mechanically equivalent to helpless but you get one move action per round"? I'm not looking to change your mind and you're not going to change mine; I was just curious how you were running it.

[CopperElfCleric]

Defending against an attack requires attention. But the spell specifically says you cannot do anything that requires attention. If you're vomiting violently can you block 5 sword attacks from just 1 person let alone anyone else if the spell says you cannot do anything that requires attention?

[Elysiume]

Like I said, I was just curious about how you're running it. Even if I was being swayed by your argument or it seemed to me that you were open to alternatives, ruling nauseated in that manner doesn't seem like it would benefit my games, so it'd be a moot point.

[DarkWhisper]

If you cannot make an attack, or cast any spells or DO ANYTHING ELSE THAT REQUIRES ATTENTION, then how can you defend yourself against a full attack action, when defending yourself requires attention??

Because rules.

While nauseated, a creature cannot take the full-defense action, nor can it fight defensively (because either would require taking something other than "a single move action"). However, a nauseated creature still has its full AC bonus from armor (which includes the AC bonus from any shield it might be wielding), DEX bonus and any magic item, special quality or ability (provided they don't require an action to use).

Now, narratively, a creature that can"not do anything that requires attention" could be interpreted as being unable to defend itself. However, that is contradicted by the rules.

Let's compare:


Nauseated

Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.


Dazed

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.


Stunned

A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

So even a dazed or stunned creature can still 'defend' itself (though it takes -2 to AC and looses Dex bonus in case of Stunned) enough to 'not just be killed' - even though they cannot take any action.


The condition, where a creature cannot defend itself in any way, is Helpless.


Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

(...)
Coup de Grace section omitted


Getting back to the narrative interpretation - who's more difficult to hit, the creature able to stumble [movement rate] feet per round while at the same time possibly vomiting ? Or the creature not being able to move at all ?


Doesn't blocking a sword require attention? What is it that is misunderstood?
No, it doesn't - unless the blocking is some form of active defense (i.e. requiring actions from the defender like full-defense or fighting defensively) - mechanically. Narratively, see above for the difference of nauseated and dazed / stunned and which condition makes a target easier to hit.

[CopperElfCleric]

Because rules.

While nauseated, a creature cannot take the full-defense action, nor can it fight defensively (because either would require taking something other than "a single move action"). However, a nauseated creature still has its full AC bonus from armor (which includes the AC bonus from any shield it might be wielding), DEX bonus and any magic item, special quality or ability (provided they don't require an action to use).

Now, narratively, a creature that can"not do anything that requires attention" could be interpreted as being unable to defend itself. However, that is contradicted by the rules.

Let's compare:







So even a dazed or stunned creature can still 'defend' itself (though it takes -2 to AC and looses Dex bonus in case of Stunned) enough to 'not just be killed' - even though they cannot take any action.


The condition, where a creature cannot defend itself in any way, is Helpless.




Getting back to the narrative interpretation - who's more difficult to hit, the creature able to stumble [movement rate] feet per round while at the same time possibly vomiting ? Or the creature not being able to move at all ?


No, it doesn't - unless the blocking is some form of active defense (i.e. requiring actions from the defender like full-defense or fighting defensively) - mechanically. Narratively, see above for the difference of nauseated and dazed / stunned and which condition makes a target easier to hit.

Okay. I see your point. Regardless, the Fey'ri rolled low and his standing "non-action" defenses were not enough to repel the attacks. I do see your point, and I will ply the rules accordingly. Thank you.

[CopperElfCleric]

“Defending” isnt an action. There are actions you can take to IMPROVE your defenses, but you still have the standard defenses you would normally have were you attacking or otherwise acting normally.

Defending against an attack requires attention. But the spell specifically says you cannot do anything that requires attention. If you're vomiting violently can you block 5 sword attacks from just 1 person let alone anyone else if the spell says you cannot do anything that requires attention? Defending DOES require attention, and therefore an action.

[AvatarVecna]

Defending against an attack requires attention. But the spell specifically says you cannot do anything that requires attention. If you're vomiting violently can you block 5 sword attacks from just 1 person let alone anyone else if the spell says you cannot do anything that requires attention? Defending DOES require attention, and therefore an action.

You are working at cross definitions. The mechanical effect is right there, black and white, clear as crystal. It makes you Nauseated. That's it. The spell then reiterates what the Nauseated condition does, in full. Your argument trying to apply "anything that requires attention" makes just as much sense for denying the target the ability to move, which tye spell explicitly allows.

Nauseated allows the target to dodge attacks. It limits the target in a number of ways, but they aren't helpless or incapacitated. Those are fully separate conditions, and no amount of kicking and screaming on your part is going to change that fact.

[Crake]

Defending against an attack requires attention. But the spell specifically says you cannot do anything that requires attention. If you're vomiting violently can you block 5 sword attacks from just 1 person let alone anyone else if the spell says you cannot do anything that requires attention? Defending DOES require attention, and therefore an action.

Firstly, nauseated doesnt mean you’re vomiting, its the feeling you get which, if intensified, might lead to vomiting, but you can get nauseated without vomiting.

Secondly, can you tell me what kind of action defending is? Last i checked you didnt need to use a standard, move, swift or free action to have an AC, and in fact, even flat footed targets, who explicitly cannot act at LEAST get their flat footed AC, nor can they be coup de graced, as they are not helpless.

[redking]

That dead villain should make a comeback. "I pretended to be helpless, you fools. And that beheading? You beheaded an illusion!"

[Sir Chuckles]

Defending against an attack requires attention. But the spell specifically says you cannot do anything that requires attention. If you're vomiting violently can you block 5 sword attacks from just 1 person let alone anyone else if the spell says you cannot do anything that requires attention? Defending DOES require attention, and therefore an action.

What kind of Action is defending?
Do I have to declare a Standard Action, a Move Action, or something else to defend? What happens if I don't declare an Action to defend? Do I become Flat Footed?