The Midnight Gambol of Erevan Ilesere, revised.

[CopperElfCleric]

The Midnight Gambol of Erevan Ilesere: Elven High Magic Spell

Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 90
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 5 minutes
Range: 3 mile radius
Effect: Conjures up a temporary elven Mythal for 12 hours.
Duration: 12 consecutive hours (D)
Saving Throw: None; see text below
Spell Resistance: None; see text below


This very rare Elven High Magic spell is known to only a handful of divine casters, currently in the name of Erevan Ilesere in Faerun. First is Curudin Ahmaquissar; Moon Elf High Mischiefmaker and Chosen of Erevan Ilesere in Silverymoon. Second is Fryndalith Fallingstar; Star Elf Queen of Siildiyurii's western foothills. Third is Zarrathadath Witherwindle; Lord Deception of the Copper elves of The Star Mounts. Fourth is Shanathalil Le'Quell; Gold elf Lady of The Knaves of The Missing Page, and Divine Prankster of The Ardeep Forest. Fifth is the mysterious Wild elf Favored Soul known as "Spiral", who haunts the Shilmista forest.

Only the most devoted divine casters can begin to understand this Epic High Elven spell. Once cast, the spell spreads out to a 3 mile shell in height and width. It lasts for 12 hours. From Midnight to 12 noon the following morning. During this twilight time the caster can invoke up to 6 defensive spells that they already know as a free action at any point they wish on command without taxing their spell casting limits for the day. The caster can also invoke 6 spells that can buff or de-buff allies or foes freely for the entire 12 hours.. Finally, this spell allows you to converse with all Fey creatures at a +10 Charisma check. Enemies are welcome to join the Gambol, but do so at their own risk. Some tales tell that even enemies convert to the Trickster deity after the revelry.

Added context: The saving throw and spell resistance against this spell is only for those creatures who are caught within it's perimeter and wish not to participate. Otherwise all ST's and SR functions normally except as noted below. For instance... If you are caught within the boundaries of the spell you are compelled to stay against your will no matter what. Yet, once compelled, you are able to function as normal with regards to all the said effects stated below. I.E. enemies get their saving throws and spell resistance as normal with whatever penalties listed for that effect.

Effects:

*Creatures within the temporary Mythal that are invited or friendly gain a +5 bonus to Charisma, Willpower, and Dexterity rolls. Enemies make the same rolls at -10 within the boundaries of the Gambol.

*You select your drink and food of choice at the end of the spell and that particular drink will refill all glasses that remain inside the borders of the Gambol for the duration of the spell.

*The Gambol itself calls to any follower of Erevan Ilesere with bravado and stealth to play a prank on a lawful person and cause chaos as if under a greater Gease spell. (You can avoid this with a one time only DC20 Will save)

*The Midnight Gambol beckons all Fey creatures within 3 miles to gather at the epicenter of the celebration. No saving throw included. Magic resistance is at -5 for this effect for the duration of their stay in The Gambol against their will.

*A +5 divine bonus to all attack and critical hit rolls made on enemies inside the Gambol, Caster decides who enemies are.

*All creatures inside the perimeter of the Gambol that are friendly to the elven pantheon gain a +5 luck bonus to all Charisma based skills.

*All creatures within the boundaries of the Gambol are compelled to drink and feast at a -2 to willpower saves. AKA... any being at the Gambol against their will may find themselves eating and drinking when they choose not to.

*All Clerics of trickster deities that celebrate the Gambol are empowered with Damage reduction/ magic while under this high magic spell. Meaning that only spells harm them, and no enchanted weapons cause harm.

*There is a 1% chance that the Avatar of Erevan Ilesere himself will show up and bless the Gambol as the DM sees fit. Roll a percentile die to determine.

*There is a 2% chance that a LeShay will appear and try to take over your job as the Master of the Gambol. (In which a fight ensues.) Meaning that you are both subject to all effects and affects of the spell. Roll a percentile die to determine. If the LeShay wins the combat, the DM decides who enemies are and changes the dynamic of the Gambol for the remainder of the spell.

*All enemies within the boundaries of the Gambol that cast a spell has those spells treated as if under the effects of a Greater Rod of Wonder.

[CopperElfCleric]

I thought this was pretty cool, and took me a few weeks to work out. Kinda sad nobody has commented. lol

[Buufreak]

What were you hoping for? It is still a DC 165 epic spell that gives about a dozen "meh" effects that could be replicated by roughly 3rd level spells. Combining them all into one doesn't exactly make it good, especially because of the investment required.

[Fizban]

What were you hoping for? It is still a DC 165 epic spell that gives about a dozen "meh" effects that could be replicated by roughly 3rd level spells. Combining them all into one doesn't exactly make it good, especially because of the investment required.
. . . hardly any of those effects are equivalent to 3rd level or lower spells, and it's impossible to affect a 3 mile radius with any of them without an epic spell. Your criticism is both nonconstructive and inaccurate.


The Midnight Gambol of Erevan Ilesere
For myself, I wouldn't bother with most of the smaller bonuses either, and I can't be bothered to evaluate the DC calculation (which per the ELH form should be included in the writeup*), but as the core concept of an epic spell which "explains" some sort of originally narrative-only phenomenon, it's just dandy. In the case the narrative phenomenon being those big fey parties where no one dares attack anyone lest they be struck down, though it also serves as a way to simply make them gather- say for some sort of announcement or parley, again with a massive hammer hanging over anyone who would threaten the gathering.


During this twilight time the caster can invoke up to 6 defensive spells that they already know as a free action at any point they wish on command without taxing their spell casting limits for the day. The caster can also invoke 6 spells that can buff or de-buff allies or foes freely for the entire 12 hours.. Finally, this spell allows you to converse with all Fey creatures at a +10 Charisma check.

This part is unclear, though from the "temporary mythal" line I would guess that you're supposed to be able to pick a bunch of spells that apply to everyone and/or are usable at-will within the area for the duration. Without so much as a level limit this is of course massively abusable, but as an epic spell with a DC over 100, the whole thing is already past the point where the only game balance is what the group makes up anyway*. I do like the idea as a vector for say, polymorphing people into animals for the lulz.

*I expect you're pulling some sort of reversed multiplication shenanigans by declaring a "temporary" mythal to get a bunch of stuff made huge and long duration without the normal modifiers, but the only places anyone seriously expects those calculations to be followed are in threads arguing about how much they can break them so yeah.

Have you considered compiling your various short stories and mechanical bits into a single thread on the World-Building subforum? Judging by the lack of mechanics when I've peeked in there lately I doubt you'd get too much traffic there, but you might get more comments on the flavor bits even if people aren't interested in going over the mechanics.

[Buufreak]

. . . hardly any of those effects are equivalent to 3rd level or lower spells, and it's impossible to affect a 3 mile radius with any of them without an epic spell. Your criticism is both nonconstructive and inaccurate.

Quite right on you. Sometimes I post when half asleep or don't have the grand time to be able to fully evaluate something. I can amend that.


The Midnight Gambol of Erevan Ilesere: Elven High Magic Spell

Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 165
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 2 minutes
Range: 3 mile radius
Effect: Conjures up a temporary elven Mythal for 12 hours.
Duration: 12 consecutive hours (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None


Alright, so lets dissect the block. Casting time is 2 minutes, not a super big deal with appropriate prep, but is 20 full rounds, so that is of note. Then the big one. DC 165. By the rules, that means someone needs to spend 9,000gp x the DC just to develop this, totaling as 1,485,000 gp. Certainly nothing to sneeze at, and definitely twice the starting gold of the standard level 20 character. This is an amount that nearly NO character ever sees due to numerous reasons like death, old age, retirement, quitting the game, etm, etm. It does last for a full 12 hours continuously, which seems quite alright, half the length of any persisted spell, so we can keep that in mind.


This very rare Elven High Magic spell is known to only a handful of divine casters, currently in the name of Erevan Ilesere in Faerun. First is Curudin Ahmaquissar; Moon Elf High Mischiefmaker and Chosen of Erevan Ilesere in Silverymoon. Second is Fryndalith Fallingstar; Star Elf Queen of Siildiyurii's western foothills. Third is Zarrathadath Witherwindle; Lord Deception of the Copper elves of The Star Mounts. Fourth is Shanathalil Le'Quell; Gold elf Lady of The Knaves of The Missing Page, and Divine Prankster of The Ardeep Forest. Fifth is the mysterious Wild elf Favored Soul known as "Spiral", who haunts the Shilmista forest.

Only the most devoted divine casters can begin to understand this Epic High Elven spell.

Flavor text. Take it as you will.



Once cast, the spell spreads out to a 3 mile shell in height and width. It lasts for 12 hours. From Midnight to 12 noon the following morning. During this twilight time the caster can invoke up to 6 defensive spells that they already know as a free action at any point they wish on command without taxing their spell casting limits for the day. The caster can also invoke 6 spells that can buff or de-buff allies or foes freely for the entire 12 hours.. Finally, this spell allows you to converse with all Fey creatures at a +10 Charisma check.


What happens if I prep for this and then cast it at 2am? Am I shorted 2 hours of the duration, does it last until 2pm, or does the spell fizzle?



*Creatures within the temporary Mythal that are invited or friendly gain a +5 bonus to Charisma, Willpower, and Dexterity rolls. Enemies make the same rolls at -10 within the boundaries of the Gambol.

A big emphasis of this is it is on rolls, IE checks, and specifically is not an actual boost to the stat itself. It appears to be untyped, which is usually quite nice, but I'm not super sure it is that big of a boon. +5 to dexterity checks will work for skills, but it doesn't fetch you +5 initiative, nor on ranged attack rolls.

On the converse of this, we have something akin to greater curse, en masse, however it still applies to rather circumstantial stats, and overall this is just going to make your party really good at party tricks and lying, and make anyone else specifically not good at the same tricks and lying.

The best spell akin to this I can think of is heroism, which while being of a higher level, applies to FAR more things. So that would knock this effect down a few pegs.



*You select your drink of choice at the end of the spell and that particular drink will refill all glasses that remain inside the borders of the Gambol for the duration of the spell.

This is create food and water, but booze. Nothing amazing here.



*The Gambol itself calls to any follower of Erevan Ilesere with bravado and stealth to play a prank on a lawful person and cause chaos as if under a greater Guise spell. (You can avoid this with a one time only DC20 Will save)

*Geas. Surprisingly, it is pronounced like /geh-sh/ last time I checked, food for thought. Geas can be powerful, but it is far too specific of an effect to be any too meaningful. Also it bears the point: what happens if there isn't a lawful person present? Do they leave to go find one? What happens when they are no longer in range of the Gambol? Does the effect persist? Also, this is an epic spell with a DC of 20. Most things in the epic range are going to auto succeed at this, without any issue.



*You can summon up to five 10'th level Treants during the duration of the 12 hours the spell lasts to act as guardians or messengers.

This one might have gusto to it. I didn't find Treants on the SNA spell list, but I would equate them to around a SNA 6, so SNA 8 would get you the 5 you need. Now for some disfunction: 10th level Treant. Does that mean 10HD or take a treant, then give it 10 levels of a class?



*The Midnight Gambol beckons all Fey creatures within 3 miles to gather at the epicenter of the celebration. No saving throw included. Magic resistance is at -5 for this effect for the duration of their stay in The Gambol against their will.

I am very unclear on this. The spell says spell resistance: no. So if they can't resist the spell, why are they receiving a -5 to their spell resistance against the spell? Akin to assay spell resistance spell.



*A +5 divine bonus to all attack and critical hit rolls made on enemies inside the Gambol, Caster decides who enemies are.

Potentially the best of the abilities listed here. +5 is good. +5 to confirmation rolls, slightly less so, but still good. It is in the ballpark of an 18th level bard using inspire courage, so definitely a strong effect.



*All creatures inside the perimeter of the Gambol that are friendly to the elven pantheon gain a +5 luck bonus to all leadership skills.

What would this even do? For 12 hours, you get.... +5 to your leadership score, allowing you to suddenly have a stronger cohort and more followers? Okay, cool, but then the spell ends and you lose all of them. Unless the Gambol can move and you plan to sack and entire country over the course of midnight to noon, I'm not seeing any meaningful value here.



*In the event of an enemy, the caster can choose to implode the combined energy and power of the Gambol and spell to deal certain death on a single or multiple targets. Any hostile being of 10HD or under is slain immediately within 2 miles of the implosion. Any creature of 15HD or under gets a Fortitude Saving throw (DC50) at a -5 penalty. Any creature of 20HD or greater gets a saving throw as normal or is slain by the chaotic energies of the elven god of chaos. This event ends the Midnight Gambol immediately and all benefits no longer exist.

This one I find laughable. So we have an epic level caster, who is at least level 21, sinking dozens of spell slots and money into this so they can have a giant drunken fey party. Dope. But on a whim, we can bring the whole roof down on a single guy. Far less dope. Let's break it down, piece by piece. If an epic caster wanted a 10HD creature slain, they wouldn't use an epic spell for it. They would power word: kill it, or any number of other things that would take minimal effort. The HD 15? Similar boat, but I'm confused by DC 50, with a -5 penalty. Why not just make it DC 55? Then again, for anything with 20HD or higher, they are likely to make the save. However, this all doesn't take into account that you have now sac'd the effect of an epic spell to either instakill something that is laughably below you, or potentially kill something that could have been taken down with other, simpler, far less costly means.



*All creatures within the boundaries of the Gambol are compelled to
drink and feast at a -2 to willpower saves.


Negligible.



*All 0 level spells are treated as 2 levels higher when cast by anyone within the gambol.

Granting a heightened metamagic effect on all spells sounds amazing, but it only applies to 0 level spells, and if memory serves, most 0 level spells don't have variables that are noticeable that are dependent on spell level, so this will at most increase the save DC of some very weak spells.



*Any enchantment spell you may cast has a 15% chance of rebounding on the caster within the Gambol.

Off the top of my head, this reminds me of the ability silver dragons get. It is... odd. Interesting, but odd.



*Any Illusion spell you may cast has a 25% chance of failure within the borders of the Gambol.[/quote

I'm not sure I've seen an effect that imposes spell failure. However, it is similar to having a 1/4 chance of having your spell countered. Take that as you will.

[quote]
*All Clerics of trickster deities that celebrate the Gambol are empowered with Damage reduction/ magic while under this high magic spell.

Okay. How much? Also, DR/ magic is rather... ridiculously underwhelming. It is rather common that anyone over the level 3 that relies on weapons for damage is going to be able to overcome this.



*All creatures within the Gambol receive a +2 luck bonus on all Fortitude saves.

Luck bonuses aren't common, so that is cool, most things being enhancement bonuses. That said, its +2 Fort, which is generally negligible, and when combined with an effect of a trickster god, I'm not super sure you would want things to have a higher fortitude because if I know tricksters, poisons are on the table and you don't want them making that save.


*There is a 5% chance that the Avatar of Erevan Ilesere himself will show up and bless the Gambol as the DM sees fit.

This is just fiat text and does... well, anything you want it to.


*There is a 2% chance that a LeShay will appear and try to take over your job as the spell-caster. (In which a fight ensues.)

Additionally fiat, and not knowing much of anything about LeShay or whomst they are, I haven't a clue of what this could or would do. But also, the spell is cast, so... what happens here? It doesn't require concentration on the effect to make it last the entire duration, so what exactly is LeShay taking over?

__________________________________________________ ____________________

So yea. As previously stated, there are a fair few very very weak and almost useless effects here. It does cast roughly an 8th level summon spell, give the effect a level 18 bard could create, a super specific geas spell that effects only specific characters with a very specific task that I am still not clear on if the effect wipes off when they leave the area so that is technically a 5th level effect, but severely self debuffing. And... that's really it. There are 2 DM fiat abilities that happen based on chance, which could be interesting or exciting. But overall, yea, most of these effects will average out to "you casted a bunch of 1s, 2s, 3s, a 5, an 8, and did a bardic music performance, but over a MASSIVE area."

It is interesting. It is flavorful. You very obviously really like your elves and elf gods and things revolving around them. You also make mention that this is the revised version of the spell, but looking at the original, I don't see any differences. Also, running through the epic rules and doing some math on seeds, modifiers, and such, this spell should roughly have a spellcraft DC of 1850, which then further pushes up the cost of it to 16,650,000 gp, which... I certainly wouldn't pay to research or learn it. Further, without pumping in tons and TONS of mitigating factors, I don't know a single canonical caster that would be able to perform it.

[CopperElfCleric]

What were you hoping for? It is still a DC 165 epic spell that gives about a dozen "meh" effects that could be replicated by roughly 3rd level spells. Combining them all into one doesn't exactly make it good, especially because of the investment required.

Well what do you want? Meteor swarms and chain lightning? It's a revelry. A temp mythal to beckon frivolity and merrymaking. A call to debauchery and hedonism. Not a kill zone.

[Buufreak]

Well what do you want? Meteor swarms and chain lightning? It's a revelry. A temp mythal to beckon frivolity and merrymaking. A call to debauchery and hedonism. Not a kill zone.

I particularly don't want anything. Its a homebrew thread (one I have looked and seen you have copy and pasted at least 3 times now with no changes) and... I'm not super sure why. Are you wanting feedback on it? It keeps saying its been revised, but not a single number or bit of text has changed as far as I can see.

Also I still haven't a clue what a gambol or mythal is. I think what Biggus said was spot on. You have made many separate things here, but I don't see anything that ties them all together. Some overall world building could be very useful, both for yourself to keep it all together and coherent, but also from a reader's point of view, because thus far I would be lost if not for googling every other minute to figure out what or who you are talking about.

[CopperElfCleric]

I particularly don't want anything. Its a homebrew thread (one I have looked and seen you have copy and pasted at least 3 times now with no changes) and... I'm not super sure why. Are you wanting feedback on it? It keeps saying its been revised, but not a single number or bit of text has changed as far as I can see.

Also I still haven't a clue what a gambol or mythal is. I think what Biggus said was spot on. You have made many separate things here, but I don't see anything that ties them all together. Some overall world building could be very useful, both for yourself to keep it all together and coherent, but also from a reader's point of view, because thus far I would be lost if not for googling every other minute to figure out what or who you are talking about.

Look up Erevan Illesere. The elven god of mischief and trickery and chaos and rogues. Forgotten realms lore. and why would you need gold to cast this spell? You mentioned 90.000 something in gold to cast this... buy who needs gold to cast this?

The Midnight Gambol is specific to Erevan Ilesere. It's a revelry devoted to the trickster god 1 time a month, by all powerful clerics of this deity.

A Mythal is a work of ancient elven high magic that can cover an entire city with offensive and defensive spells of levels 0 to 9.

[Buufreak]

The Midnight Gambol is specific to Erevan Ilesere. It's a revelry devoted to the trickster god 1 time a month, by all powerful clerics of this deity.

A Mythal is a work of ancient elven high magic that can cover an entire city with offensive and defensive spells of levels 0 to 9.

Great. Awesome. Mentioning that from the beginning as some backstory would be very helpful. Otherwise it just looks like some conglomerate of effects with no real reason or justification.


And why would you need gold to cast this spell? You mentioned 90.000 something in gold to cast this... buy who needs gold to cast this?

Because it is an epic spell, and using your calculation for the spellcraft DC, that is the amount it would take to research, create, and learn to cast this spell. Nevermind the more accurately calculated DC and the cost that it would take. From what I understand, you were taking a bit of lore and trying to implement it using in game mechanics. That's awesome, but you can't skimp on all the details of that. A spell of this caliber would have roughly an 1850 spellcraft DC to make, and by the book it says the cost to create it is the DC times 9,000gp. That is a huge sum of money, so I merely mention that for someone who hasn't spent literally decades dedicating their life to this very specific deity, it isn't likely they would go through the trouble of learning the spell.

[CopperElfCleric]

Quite right on you. Sometimes I post when half asleep or don't have the grand time to be able to fully evaluate something. I can amend that.



Alright, so lets dissect the block. Casting time is 2 minutes, not a super big deal with appropriate prep, but is 20 full rounds, so that is of note. Then the big one. DC 165. By the rules, that means someone needs to spend 9,000gp x the DC just to develop this, totaling as 1,485,000 gp. Certainly nothing to sneeze at, and definitely twice the starting gold of the standard level 20 character. This is an amount that nearly NO character ever sees due to numerous reasons like death, old age, retirement, quitting the game, etm, etm. It does last for a full 12 hours continuously, which seems quite alright, half the length of any persisted spell, so we can keep that in mind.



Flavor text. Take it as you will. [/b][/i]


{Scrubbed}


What happens if I prep for this and then cast it at 2am? Am I shorted 2 hours of the duration, does it last until 2pm, or does the spell fizzle?



A big emphasis of this is it is on rolls, IE checks, and specifically is not an actual boost to the stat itself. It appears to be untyped, which is usually quite nice, but I'm not super sure it is that big of a boon. +5 to dexterity checks will work for skills, but it doesn't fetch you +5 initiative, nor on ranged attack rolls.

On the converse of this, we have something akin to greater curse, en masse, however it still applies to rather circumstantial stats, and overall this is just going to make your party really good at party tricks and lying, and make anyone else specifically not good at the same tricks and lying.

The best spell akin to this I can think of is heroism, which while being of a higher level, applies to FAR more things. So that would knock this effect down a few pegs.



This is create food and water, but booze. Nothing amazing here.



*Geas. Surprisingly, it is pronounced like /geh-sh/ last time I checked, food for thought. Geas can be powerful, but it is far too specific of an effect to be any too meaningful. Also it bears the point: what happens if there isn't a lawful person present? Do they leave to go find one? What happens when they are no longer in range of the Gambol? Does the effect persist? Also, this is an epic spell with a DC of 20. Most things in the epic range are going to auto succeed at this, without any issue.



This one might have gusto to it. I didn't find Treants on the SNA spell list, but I would equate them to around a SNA 6, so SNA 8 would get you the 5 you need. Now for some disfunction: 10th level Treant. Does that mean 10HD or take a treant, then give it 10 levels of a class?



I am very unclear on this. The spell says spell resistance: no. So if they can't resist the spell, why are they receiving a -5 to their spell resistance against the spell? Akin to assay spell resistance spell.



Potentially the best of the abilities listed here. +5 is good. +5 to confirmation rolls, slightly less so, but still good. It is in the ballpark of an 18th level bard using inspire courage, so definitely a strong effect.



What would this even do? For 12 hours, you get.... +5 to your leadership score, allowing you to suddenly have a stronger cohort and more followers? Okay, cool, but then the spell ends and you lose all of them. Unless the Gambol can move and you plan to sack and entire country over the course of midnight to noon, I'm not seeing any meaningful value here.



This one I find laughable. So we have an epic level caster, who is at least level 21, sinking dozens of spell slots and money into this so they can have a giant drunken fey party. Dope. But on a whim, we can bring the whole roof down on a single guy. Far less dope. Let's break it down, piece by piece. If an epic caster wanted a 10HD creature slain, they wouldn't use an epic spell for it. They would power word: kill it, or any number of other things that would take minimal effort. The HD 15? Similar boat, but I'm confused by DC 50, with a -5 penalty. Why not just make it DC 55? Then again, for anything with 20HD or higher, they are likely to make the save. However, this all doesn't take into account that you have now sac'd the effect of an epic spell to either instakill something that is laughably below you, or potentially kill something that could have been taken down with other, simpler, far less costly means.



Negligible.



Granting a heightened metamagic effect on all spells sounds amazing, but it only applies to 0 level spells, and if memory serves, most 0 level spells don't have variables that are noticeable that are dependent on spell level, so this will at most increase the save DC of some very weak spells.



Off the top of my head, this reminds me of the ability silver dragons get. It is... odd. Interesting, but odd.

[quote]
*Any Illusion spell you may cast has a 25% chance of failure within the borders of the Gambol.[/quote

I'm not sure I've seen an effect that imposes spell failure. However, it is similar to having a 1/4 chance of having your spell countered. Take that as you will.



Okay. How much? Also, DR/ magic is rather... ridiculously underwhelming. It is rather common that anyone over the level 3 that relies on weapons for damage is going to be able to overcome this.



Luck bonuses aren't common, so that is cool, most things being enhancement bonuses. That said, its +2 Fort, which is generally negligible, and when combined with an effect of a trickster god, I'm not super sure you would want things to have a higher fortitude because if I know tricksters, poisons are on the table and you don't want them making that save.



This is just fiat text and does... well, anything you want it to.



Additionally fiat, and not knowing much of anything about LeShay or whomst they are, I haven't a clue of what this could or would do. But also, the spell is cast, so... what happens here? It doesn't require concentration on the effect to make it last the entire duration, so what exactly is LeShay taking over?

__________________________________________________ ____________________

So yea. As previously stated, there are a fair few very very weak and almost useless effects here. It does cast roughly an 8th level summon spell, give the effect a level 18 bard could create, a super specific geas spell that effects only specific characters with a very specific task that I am still not clear on if the effect wipes off when they leave the area so that is technically a 5th level effect, but severely self debuffing. And... that's really it. There are 2 DM fiat abilities that happen based on chance, which could be interesting or exciting. But overall, yea, most of these effects will average out to "you casted a bunch of 1s, 2s, 3s, a 5, an 8, and did a bardic music performance, but over a MASSIVE area."

It is interesting. It is flavorful. You very obviously really like your elves and elf gods and things revolving around them. You also make mention that this is the revised version of the spell, but looking at the original, I don't see any differences. Also, running through the epic rules and doing some math on seeds, modifiers, and such, this spell should roughly have a spellcraft DC of 1850, which then further pushes up the cost of it to 16,650,000 gp, which... I certainly wouldn't pay to research or learn it. Further, without pumping in tons and TONS of mitigating factors, I don't know a single canonical caster that would be able to perform it.

{Scrubbed}

[JNAProductions]

You’d be better off explaining than just saying “do research”.

What houserules are you using? I know in past threads you’ve posted, you’ve had a lot of houserules-explaining those might help make it clear.

[CopperElfCleric]

Great. Awesome. Mentioning that from the beginning as some backstory would be very helpful. Otherwise it just looks like some conglomerate of effects with no real reason or justification.



Because it is an epic spell, and using your calculation for the spellcraft DC, that is the amount it would take to research, create, and learn to cast this spell. Nevermind the more accurately calculated DC and the cost that it would take. From what I understand, you were taking a bit of lore and trying to implement it using in game mechanics. That's awesome, but you can't skimp on all the details of that. A spell of this caliber would have roughly an 1850 spellcraft DC to make, and by the book it says the cost to create it is the DC times 9,000gp. That is a huge sum of money, so I merely mention that for someone who hasn't spent literally decades dedicating their life to this very specific deity, it isn't likely they would go through the trouble of learning the spell.

As a cleric or favored soul of Erevan Ilesere, you don't need to research anything. Your deity grants you the spell once you're powerful enough to cast it. This is no wizard spell, and no arcane caster can wield it.

[JNAProductions]

As a cleric or favored soul of Erevan Ilesere, you don't need to research anything. Your deity grants you the spell once you're powerful enough to cast it. This is no wizard spell, and no arcane caster can wield it.

Epic Spells are not the same as normal spells. They require costs to research and cast, even for Divine casters.

[CopperElfCleric]

Epic Spells are not the same as normal spells. They require costs to research and cast, even for Divine casters.

Guess I should have mentioned that isn't the case. No research, no gold, no spell slots used. Granted and gifted by the elven trickster deity himself. So anyone... good or evil that just happens upon the Midnight Gambol is kinda stuck there unless you pass all the rolls and counter rolls to evade or escape it. You may see quicklings and redcaps dancing with dwarves and halflings.... all having fun until the 12 hours are over.

[JNAProductions]

Please list the houserules used for this. That will help people properly critique it.

[CopperElfCleric]

there are no house rules. Just D&D

[JNAProductions]

there are no house rules. Just D&D

Then you need to reread the rules on using Epic Spells.

This link to the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm) might come in handy.

[Buufreak]

Then you need to reread the rules on using Epic Spells.

This link to the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm) might come in handy.

This has entirely been my point.

[Fizban]

1,485,000 gp. Certainly nothing to sneeze at, and definitely twice the starting gold of the standard level 20 character. This is an amount that nearly NO character ever sees due to numerous reasons like death, old age, retirement, quitting the game, etm, etm.
One must always assume the premise- that something presented exists for a reason. In order to even cast it without infinite loop shenanigans you'll need someone well into epic, and the epic wealth tables get huge and never stop going up.

Flavor text. Take it as you will.
One should not assume that "flavor" text is only flavor. SpC did not do any favors for this, but very often spells "lack" critical information which was actually in the "flavor" text. Text is text.

What happens if I prep for this and then cast it at 2am? Am I shorted 2 hours of the duration, does it last until 2pm, or does the spell fizzle?
Good question- I would expect the spell is intended to only be cast at a certain time, so that should be added to the text.

A big emphasis of this is it is on rolls, IE checks, and specifically is not an actual boost to the stat itself. It appears to be untyped, which is usually quite nice, but I'm not super sure it is that big of a boon. +5 to dexterity checks will work for skills, but it doesn't fetch you +5 initiative, nor on ranged attack rolls.
Actually, IIRC, Initiative is not a root roll of its own, but rather is considered a Dexterity check which then adds special initiative modifiers. For bonuses from similar spells, I was primarily thinking of the 6th level Greater Heroism which is required for even a +4, though it as you noted Heroism also provides attacks and saves. Large bonuses to raw ability checks are indeed fairly rare.

This is create food and water, but booze. Nothing amazing here.
All of your evaluation thus far seems to be from a single character benefit perspective, which a 3 mile radius epic spell should clearly not be evaluated under. Create Infinite Booze For Everyone Within 3 Miles is a heck of a spell.


*Geas. Surprisingly, it is pronounced like /geh-sh/ last time I checked, food for thought. Geas can be powerful, but it is far too specific of an effect to be any too meaningful. Also it bears the point: what happens if there isn't a lawful person present? Do they leave to go find one? What happens when they are no longer in range of the Gambol? Does the effect persist? Also, this is an epic spell with a DC of 20. Most things in the epic range are going to auto succeed at this, without any issue.
Geas can be ignored with ease- this is more of a Suggestion, but in any case it's a fluff function of the spell, since you're compelling what are clearly your allies to do things that they're already supposed to do. It's more of a notice of what happens when the party is on. It is weird that it's given a DC when something like the kill field below is not.


10th level Treant. Does that mean 10HD or take a treant, then give it 10 levels of a class?
Or does it mean a Treant with ECL 10? Not the first time I've seen such vaguery. I actually find this bit of the spell least interesting, since it's a limited quantifiable number of goons, when the spell is otherwise a 3 mile radius Plot Effect.


I am very unclear on this. The spell says spell resistance: no. So if they can't resist the spell, why are they receiving a -5 to their spell resistance against the spell? Akin to assay spell resistance spell.
Yeah I don't get it either- and again, it sounds to me like these are supposed to be your thematic allies, so the spell shouldn't even be written as though they could be unwilling: if this is some big natural nigh-godly fey party, why would or can they even resist it?


Potentially the best of the abilities listed here. +5 is good. +5 to confirmation rolls, slightly less so, but still good. It is in the ballpark of an 18th level bard using inspire courage, so definitely a strong effect.
Meanwhile I again find this extremely wierd- so is this the giant fey party, or is this a mass-battle effect? Why bother giving a bonus if you can just collapse the spell to kill all enemies?


What would this even do? For 12 hours, you get.... +5 to your leadership score, allowing you to suddenly have a stronger cohort and more followers? Okay, cool, but then the spell ends and you lose all of them. Unless the Gambol can move and you plan to sack and entire country over the course of midnight to noon, I'm not seeing any meaningful value here.
I hazard a guess that it's meant to be Charisma-based skills.


This one I find laughable. So we have an epic level caster, who is at least level 21, sinking dozens of spell slots and money into this so they can have a giant drunken fey party. Dope. But on a whim, we can bring the whole roof down on a single guy. Far less dope. Let's break it down, piece by piece. If an epic caster wanted a 10HD creature slain, they wouldn't use an epic spell for it. They would power word: kill it, or any number of other things that would take minimal effort. The HD 15? Similar boat, but I'm confused by DC 50, with a -5 penalty. Why not just make it DC 55?
Ahhh, but the spell doesn't say anything about you burning tons of extra spell slots. And it clearly says single or multiple targets, so you can kill all enemies. Save DC but at penalty is sometimes used on occasion to let a spell be super effective vs certain foes (since normal spells have formula DCs), but not when a spell is ranging through no-save to save, no.


[-2 will saves]Negligible.
I would argue this is more the sort of effect I would expect from such a wide spell, small modifiers that matter little to the PCs but in theory justify wide ranging effects across the populace. But since this spell has a bunch of other big hammer effects, yeah negligible.


Granting a heightened metamagic effect on all spells sounds amazing, but it only applies to 0 level spells, and if memory serves, most 0 level spells don't have variables that are noticeable that are dependent on spell level, so this will at most increase the save DC of some very weak spells.
Agreed.


[re: enchantment and illusion fail chance]I'm not sure I've seen an effect that imposes spell failure. However, it is similar to having a 1/4 chance of having your spell countered. Take that as you will.
There's at least one spell that imposes a flat fail chance in an area, 8th level IIRC? Anti-school spells seem like they might have been a thing in earlier editions/3rd party books.


Okay. How much? Also, DR/ magic is rather... ridiculously underwhelming. It is rather common that anyone over the level 3 that relies on weapons for damage is going to be able to overcome this.
Also returns to the question of if this is a Party Plot spell or an army spell.


This is just fiat text and does... well, anything you want it to. . .
Additionally fiat, and not knowing much of anything about LeShay or whomst they are, I haven't a clue of what this could or would do. But also, the spell is cast, so... what happens here? It doesn't require concentration on the effect to make it last the entire duration, so what exactly is LeShay taking over?
Epic Spells in general are just fiat with a thin skin of pretense- and I could easily see assigning a similarly arbitrary modifier for "effect only has X% chance to happen," which when added to the cost of summoning an avatar or LeShay, both stat-able and thus summon-able, ends up making the spell cost less. I think the idea is that if the LeShay shows up and "takes over" it fights you because it wants to be the boss, essentially being a special sort of backfire chance. I don't like either of these mechanics either.


So yea. As previously stated, there are a fair few very very weak and almost useless effects here. It does cast roughly an 8th level summon spell, give the effect a level 18 bard could create, a super specific geas spell that effects only specific characters with a very specific task that I am still not clear on if the effect wipes off when they leave the area so that is technically a 5th level effect, but severely self debuffing. And... that's really it. There are 2 DM fiat abilities that happen based on chance, which could be interesting or exciting. But overall, yea, most of these effects will average out to "you casted a bunch of 1s, 2s, 3s, a 5, an 8, and did a bardic music performance, but over a MASSIVE area."
It forces all fey within 3 miles to congregate, provides infinite free booze to everyone in the area, and lets you end the effect to kill pretty much every non-epic enemy- which actually means "creature" since it's explicitly you whom designates enemies, within the area.


I don't know a single canonical caster that would be able to perform it.
Huh. Yeah, I don't know if the ELH or other sources of epic NPCs actually statted anyone with enough bonus to cast that either. It would require checking books and parts of books I usually don't bother with. But regardless, one must again assume the premise that someone in the spell's home world can cast it, even if it's only the god that created it.


Also I still haven't a clue what a gambol or mythal is.
To gambol is to playfully bounce around- dictionary search says frolic, which is even better.

A Mythal is that Elven High Magic you admit you've never heard of, specifically big, permanent (or near-enough) effects. The city of Silverymoon in Forgotten Realms has a Mythal which prevents a whole slew of aggressive spells from being cast by un-approved casters, and lets people attuned to it call upon a number of effects themselves- details should be in the book Silver Marches. Originally these were Artifact or Plot tier effects, same as flying mountains and whatnot. Lost Empires of Faerun however, adds the Mythal epic spell seed and mythal creation system, essentially a whole second set of modifiers to break your epic spell calculations with.

Notably, this spell does not really behave as a Mythal at all, though as I said I could see someone assigning a DC as a mythal and then "ad-hoc" reducing it by however much they want reducing the duration. The Mythal system is basically an attempt to fix? the fact that they put the Permament and area multipliers on epic spells very high, so that huge and/or permanent stuff was difficult- by shifting them to a new calculation system.



You’d be better off explaining than just saying “do research”.
I agree.


Guess I should have mentioned that isn't the case. No research, no gold, no spell slots used. Granted and gifted by the elven trickster deity himself.

there are no house rules. Just D&D
So your epic spell follows none of the epic spell rules? That's a hefty house-rule.


No where, as far as I know, is there something called "elven high magic"
It is mentioned frequently in the FR books, though as I said only had mechanics added in Lost Empires of Faerun (and I think those are only referenced in Dragons of Faerun and maybe one other book?).


and nothing beyond DM fiat that can just allow a god to give you something, especially something this powerful.
I would raise a semantic point that tons of spells and features are essentially the player compelling a god to give their character something- but in any case,


As written, this is more powerful than many of the gods given in print could even perform.
Boccob himself only has a Spellcraft result of 147, though that's not counting the arbitrarily high amount of bonuses to be gained from *actually* having every spell in existence.

[Buufreak]

To gambol is to playfully bounce around- dictionary search says frolic, which is even better.

A Mythal is that Elven High Magic you admit you've never heard of, specifically big, permanent (or near-enough) effects. The city of Silverymoon in Forgotten Realms has a Mythal which prevents a whole slew of aggressive spells from being cast by un-approved casters, and lets people attuned to it call upon a number of effects themselves- details should be in the book Silver Marches. Originally these were Artifact or Plot tier effects, same as flying mountains and whatnot. Lost Empires of Faerun however, adds the Mythal epic spell seed and mythal creation system, essentially a whole second set of modifiers to break your epic spell calculations with.


This. This is significantly appreciated. I, as have before, admit I haven't played this game since inception, and certainly haven't rooted from cover to cover of every single book. Thank you for providing me with a bit of information I didn't have, along with directing me on where to find more.

[redking]

Where are the seeds, factors, and mitigating factors? Without the epic spell construction information, it's impossible to critique.

[CopperElfCleric]

I apologize if I seem aloof or give little help with what I have provided. I have been working on this for many, many months and I don't know everything, but expect others to. It's a bad habit of mine. I am no mechanics expert, but I have fluff down to a tee. Some of you have agreed with my spell and others have called me out on m lack of specifics. I would like to ask the help of all of you on anything you have questions about. Maybe I can explain what I was trying for, and you guys can ply the mechanics for game play. I work 60 hours a week as a chef, and although that is a lame excuse, I will do what I can. I have read all your compliments and detriments, and want to fix this epic spell as best I can, asap.

So I ask for your help in finishing this. Thank you. Start somewhere and I will do my best to explain the effect.

[CopperElfCleric]

Where are the seeds, factors, and mitigating factors? Without the epic spell construction information, it's impossible to critique.

This spell is not constructed, but attained, so I gave little thought to seeds and whatnot. This spell can only be cast 1 time a month at Erevan Ileseres' holy hour of Midnight and can never be cast at the same location ever.

From the sourcebook Demi-human Deities: Followers of Erevan gather monthly for a Midnight Gambol, which is held in a sylvan glade beneath the light of the full moon. The exact location of each Midnight Gambol is a secret that is passed among the faithful by word of mouth in the days leading up to the event. Anyone who manages to discover the festivities through his or her own ingenuity is welcome to participate. Erevan's followers are often joined in their revels by the mischief-loving subjects of the Seelie Court, particularly sprites and pixies. Each Midnight Gambol includes the sacrifice of beautiful objects (most of which are borrowed), dancing, wine-drinking, tale- telling, and endless prank-playing.

[CopperElfCleric]

I just changed a bunch of abilities and effects based on some of the questions I was asked. Please re-read and tell me if I made things more clear.

[redking]

This spell is not constructed, but attained, so I gave little thought to seeds and whatnot. This spell can only be cast 1 time a month at Erevan Ileseres' holy hour of Midnight and can never be cast at the same location ever.

If the ability to cast the spell is simply a boon granted by a deity, you don't need information like the Spellcraft DC.

[CopperElfCleric]

If the ability to cast the spell is simply a boon granted by a deity, you don't need information like the Spellcraft DC.

Semantics. but hey. cool

[redking]

Semantics. but hey. cool

It's not semantics at all, because the listing of the Spellcraft DC means the caster of the epic spell must successfully pass the 165 DC Spellcraft check that you have specified.

[Buufreak]

I apologize if I seem aloof or give little help with what I have provided. I have been working on this for many, many months and I don't know everything, but expect others to. It's a bad habit of mine. I am no mechanics expert, but I have fluff down to a tee. Some of you have agreed with my spell and others have called me out on m lack of specifics. I would like to ask the help of all of you on anything you have questions about. Maybe I can explain what I was trying for, and you guys can ply the mechanics for game play... I have read all your compliments and detriments, and want to fix this epic spell as best I can, asap.

So I ask for your help in finishing this. Thank you. Start somewhere and I will do my best to explain the effect.


Semantics. but hey. cool

These are two completely contradicting attitudes. You either want help with rules text and mechanics, or you think it can all be completely handled waved away and the rules don't matter. You can't have both.


From the sourcebook Demi-human Deities: Followers of Erevan gather monthly for a Midnight Gambol, which is held in a sylvan glade beneath the light of the full moon. The exact location of each Midnight Gambol is a secret that is passed among the faithful by word of mouth in the days leading up to the event. Anyone who manages to discover the festivities through his or her own ingenuity is welcome to participate. Erevan's followers are often joined in their revels by the mischief-loving subjects of the Seelie Court, particularly sprites and pixies. Each Midnight Gambol includes the sacrifice of beautiful objects (most of which are borrowed), dancing, wine-drinking, tale- telling, and endless prank-playing.

You have made mention at great end that this gambol is something that is divinely gifted to an individual as a spell that they can just... cast, without need or concern for any and all components besides a specific time. The text you have quoted here doesn't seem to support that in the slightest. Is there any addition text that does?

[redking]

These are two completely contradicting attitudes. You either want help with rules text and mechanics, or you think it can all be completely handled waved away and the rules don't matter. You can't have both.

You have made mention at great end that this gambol is something that is divinely gifted to an individual as a spell that they can just... cast, without need or concern for any and all components besides a specific time. The text you have quoted here doesn't seem to support that in the slightest. Is there any addition text that does?

I think it's fruitless to critique this in the way the the OP asked us to do. This isn't presented as an epic spell, but is not an epic spell. It's just an act of the gods, thus something that is to be handwaved away by the DM.

That said, the selection of magical effects seem randomly put together. A better option would just be to use the Bacche (Manual of the Planes 3E) as a guideline for this Gambol debauch.


Debauch (Su): Bacchae try to draw strangers into their perpetual revel, eventually converting them into bacchae themselves. Anyone who joins a band of bacchae in their debauchery, whether voluntarily or through the beguilement of the bacchae's spell-like abilities, must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1 per 3 bacchae engaged in the revel, to a maximum DC of 20 for a band of 30 bacchae) or lose all track of time and start carousing alongside the bacchae. A victim ensnared by the bacchae's debauchery will not willingly leave the mob. Ar the next sunrise, the victim must make a second Will save. If successful, the debauched character recovers his or her senses and may leave if he so chooses, although the bacchae are likely to begin the whole process all over again. If the debauched character fails the save, the character becomes a bacchae.

A transformed character abandons her previous lifestyle, gains all the statistics and abilities of a bacchae, and fights against former allies as part of her bacchae mob. The character can be restored by heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish.

The Gambol likely has no permanent effects so the last paragraph can be ignored.

[CopperElfCleric]

I took what you guys said to our DM and he agrees with you. So I made several changes, added a new effect at the DM's suggestion and made better descriptions based on the questions you've asked. This spell is no longer just... cast, and does require a reduced spellcraft DC.

[Buufreak]

I took what you guys said to our DM and he agrees with you. So I made several changes, added a new effect at the DM's suggestion and made better descriptions based on the questions you've asked. This spell is no longer just... cast, and does require a reduced spellcraft DC.

Okay. This vastly changes things. I was under the impression this was something that you were DMing, and you were giving this to players. Did you present to the DM the calculations of the spellcraft DC, and why it should be significantly higher, not lowered?

[CopperElfCleric]

Okay. This vastly changes things. I was under the impression this was something that you were DMing, and you were giving this to players. Did you present to the DM the calculations of the spellcraft DC, and why it should be significantly higher, not lowered?

I tried doing the calculations on the spellcraft DC myself and misconstrued some seeds and whatnot. Our entire party is epic level and he allows us to create our own spells with his approval. I presented this spell to him yesterday and he corrected me and advised me. So please re-read the initial post and see the changes I've made. This spell has not yet been presented to our DM since his suggestions.

My long-time PC is Curudin Ahmaquissar: Male Trickster-Touched Moon elf of Evermeet. CR 32; Rogue 5/ Cleric 5/ Mischiefmaker 10/ Epic Mischiefmaker 10 of Erevan Ilesere. Even a 1st level cleric of the elven trickster god can host a Midnight Gambol, but there is no canon mechanics behind it, so I thought to make it an epic level spell, or Elven High Magic spell, which is not fair to any cleric of the deity below 21st level, but I wanted to go big for the 1 time a month event.

And I did significantly lower the spellcraft DC

[redking]

And I did significantly lower the spellcraft DC

I looked at it again. It looks like all you've changed is the Spellcraft DC for casting the spell. You mentioned epic spell seeds. Why not include the spell construction information in your post? If not, what exactly do you expect us to do?

[CopperElfCleric]

I looked at it again. It looks like all you've changed is the Spellcraft DC for casting the spell. You mentioned epic spell seeds. Why not include the spell construction information in your post? If not, what exactly do you expect us to do?

I clarified many of the questions you've all asked with the effects. Why this, why that? I clarified those questions as well. I will include the seed work as well.

[CopperElfCleric]

I used the seeds of Afflict, Animate, Compel, Conjure, Contact, Destroy, Fortify and Slay. Roughly bringing the spell DC to 90. My DM suggested I add the Rod of wonder effect to enemy spells but I don't know what seed that falls under besides Conjure. I may be off by a few DC points.

[Buufreak]

Bear with me, busy at the moment, but I'm going to dig through every bit of text with my ELH in hand, and we are going to find you an appropriate DC.

[CopperElfCleric]

Bear with me, busy at the moment, but I'm going to dig through every bit of text with my ELH in hand, and we are going to find you an appropriate DC.

That would be a terrific help, as I am not so great at the mechanics of spell creation. Game-play and fluff I have down to a science, but this is my first spell creation that I care about.

[CopperElfCleric]

A good description of Elven High Magic. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elven_high_magic

[CopperElfCleric]

I looked at it again. It looks like all you've changed is the Spellcraft DC for casting the spell. You mentioned epic spell seeds. Why not include the spell construction information in your post? If not, what exactly do you expect us to do?

This may be more understandable if you did some research on the elven deity of Mischief, Trickery, Chaos and Rogues. His name is Erevan Ilesere and is prominent in the Seldarine pantheon. He is an Intermediate god with a Divine Rank of 15.

[Buufreak]

Okay. We are going to break down all of the calculations, according to the rules of text presented in the Epic Level Handbook, and echoed on the SRD. First and foremost, let us look at the spell construction.

By your own terms, we are using the Afflict (14), Animate (25), Compel (19), Conjure (21), Contact(23), Destroy (29), Fortify (17), and Slay (25) seeds. Each have their own base DCs, and according to the rules, we take EACH of those DCs and add them together, just to start with. For time sake, I listed all the appropriate numbers to each seed above, and their grand total is 173. That means that, without factoring in any and all of the other factors such as range, time, etc that go into this spell, it should have a Spellcraft DC of 173 to cast. But then again, we aren't fully understanding the uses of the seeds and what they specifically do, so these are VERY subject to change.

Now, for the factors! For this, we need to look at first your stat block, and then we need to break it down into this and that. So lets take a gander.



Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 90
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 2 minutes
Range: 3 mile radius
Effect: Conjures up a temporary elven Mythal for 12 hours.
Duration: 12 consecutive hours (D)
Saving Throw: None; see text below
Spell Resistance: None; see text below

- Okay. V and S, no different from default.

- Casting time is 2 minutes, which is twice the normal, so that gets a -2 to the cost (and from this point, I'm just going to list the thing, then state a number, according to the black and white rules.)

- Range 3 miles. Default is (using best seed) 12,000 ft, however this is a radius, so the full distance would be 6 miles, or 31,680 ft, roughly 3 times the size, for a strange enough +3. Refigured because of the actual seeds being used, the only seed having and AoE is Ward, which starts at 10 feet, so this is... +24.

- Time is 12 hours, due to seeds the standard is 20 hours, and the table doesn't give any discounts for this one, so +0.

- No save, well. That one is tricky, because epic spells absolutely have a save, it is 20 + appropriate casting stat. Increasing it to infinity... well. Each point of the save DC is another point of the casting DC, so this one is a wash. Either we fix this, or the casting cost is a Spellcraft check of INFINITY, which you simply aren't going to do.

- Spell resistance also needs fixed. The rules on this are very straight forward. "When combining two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, if even one seed is subject to spell resistance, the finished epic spell is subject to it as well." So again, either this absolutely has spell resistance, or the Spellcraft DC is infinity.

ALRIGHT! Now we need to break down the effects individually, and factor those in as well. Luckily, so far, we are only at a DC of 174, which isn't impossible, especially if you would check out the table on mitigating factors, but we will get back to that point later.

- First things first: the weaving of 6 spells into this thing. That effect simply doesn't exist. Not in the seeds, and not in the factors table. The best I can equate this to is actually using the WARD or Fortify seed, in which you can imbue individuals, and when combined with the other seeds, does have the range that you are wanting. Cool, great, love it. You want to put 6 effects in play, that is 6 uses of Ward or Fortify. Luckily, the way many sample epic spells are, you only need to pay the base cost of each seed once, regardless of how many of their effects we are using. Now, this is massively varied, because depending on what buffs you want to hand out, they not only need to be selected at the time of creating the spell (Note, not casting it!!!!) so this can range from adding nothing to the DC to adding... well, quite alot. I'm not wanting to split hairs over the targets here, so I won't, but this can range massively, and we haven't even got to the other sillier parts of the spell, so I'm going to leave this as a wash for now.

- +5 to Charisma, Dexterity, and Will. Easy peasy. Type isn't listed, so as an untyped bonus, each individual point increases the DC by +6, for a total of +90. (Fortify)

- -10 to Charisma, Dexterity, and Will. Also easy. Each -1 penalty is a DC of +4, so 30 of them comes out at +120 total. (Afflict)

- The booze. I would hope to assume that 20 CUBIC FEET of booze is enough to sate an entire party, even if it lasts 12 hours. I've been to raging college keggers. I've seen how much a few dozen people can drink, and it sure as hell is less than 20 cubic feet. So I'm not going to budge any numbers here. (Conjure)

- The come and prank people thing. If it is harmless, non-murdering or suiciding kinds of pranks? Yea, totally within the realm of Compel. Again, not splitting hairs on targets. (Compel)

- The Treants. So, I am looking to SUPER LOW BALL this one, just to kinda help prove the point. 10 HD Treants come in about CR 9. So, it states that initially, the seed only summons an outsider. If you want to get anything else, add +10, and that will get you any creature CR 2 or less. It then says +2 DC for every CR you increase the limit by. It then ALSO says for each additional creature summoned, DOUBLE THE DC! YES, THE ENTIRE DAMN THING! DOUBLE IT. THEN AGAIN, AND AGAIN, and I think you get the idea. So this ability, ALONE, is first added +10, then +14, THEN multiplying the entire cost of the spell by 16. If this spell started with a DC of 1, this effect alone made it 400. So this one gets a special little star added to it, because it's effect on the DC is going to be hilarious when we calculate everything at the end. (Summon)

- Compels all fey. Yea, we already talked about how much this needs incredibly fixed because of the no save, no SR. (Compel)

- Reading through, there ISN'T a seed that just grants a +5 divine bonus to attacks, but if I had to put it somewhere, I'm calling it Fortify. Its another +5, so that's another +10. (Fortify)

- Another +5, but this time luck. +10 DC. (Fortify)

- The kill bomb. Well, Slay will kill things up to 80 HD, so this needs no adjustments (except the elephant in the room of the save DC, which the creature ABSOLUTELY gets a Fort save). (Slay)

- More Compel. More... well, compulsion. (Compel)

- Casting low level spells as higher level spells. Well, as we discussed before, this is only really going to increase the DCs and maybe some durations? However, it is for ALL spells of the appropriate level, and for each of those, it should be a +1. So this is another "Could be +0, could be + infinity" ones. This is, however, strictly in the factor table, and I don't think any seed really comes in play here.

- Rebounding spells. This is actually the Reflect seed, and for each additional level of spells you wish to bounce, it increases the DC by 20. Now, there are 9 schools, so I'm totally willing to do some wiggle room, and it also only effects 15% of that 1 of 9 schools. So lets math. Base 27 gets you 1st level spells, 8 more levels is +160, for a total of 187. Divide by 9, then times 0.15, and I get... 3.116? So I can call this +4 and be happy. (Reflect)

- Illusion failing. Same song and dance. 187 / 9 x 0.25 = 5.194, so +6. (Reflect)

- Did we ever figure out what the DR thing was? Were you saying like true damage immunity? Help me out here. I'll leave this one alone for now, but it is also the Ward seed. (Ward)

- Fort saves. +4 DC. (Fortify)

And......... That's it! Alright, cool. I'm leaving out the percentage rolls, because this is already super silly enough, and I don't really know how to justify them with seeds beyond getting the HD of the creatures and adding them with the Summon seed. Alright, so all totaled, you are only using the Afflict, Compel, Conjure, Fortify, Reflect, Slay, Summon, and Ward seeds. They will total, to start, at DC 151. Then we add and subtract appropriate factors (then the multiply part, which is hands down going to be my favorite). So 151 -2 +24 +90 +120 +24 +10 +10 +4 +6 +4 will equal 441. It will take a Spellcraft DC of 441 to pull all of this off. But wait, there's more, because this was ONLY calculating for 1 Treant. If we summon all 5 of them, which multiplies the cost by x16, we end up with a whopping 7056.

So that's it, good fellow elf. All tallied, and not including the effects of this that are beyond absurd and completely breaking the rules of the game, this spell will require the caster to make a Spellcraft DC of 7056. If that number doesn't shake somebody, well then I've probably gone wrong with my entire life. But yea, this spell is nigh impossible to cast. Ever. Even with mitigating factors like bringing in high level casters to ritual cast it by sacrificing their own spell casting power, it would take roughly 400 9th level spell slots sacrificed to bring this down bellow a DC of about 300.

[CopperElfCleric]

Okay. We are going to break down all of the calculations, according to the rules of text presented in the Epic Level Handbook, and echoed on the SRD. First and foremost, let us look at the spell construction.

By your own terms, we are using the Afflict (14), Animate (25), Compel (19), Conjure (21), Contact(23), Destroy (29), Fortify (17), and Slay (25) seeds. Each have their own base DCs, and according to the rules, we take EACH of those DCs and add them together, just to start with. For time sake, I listed all the appropriate numbers to each seed above, and their grand total is 173. That means that, without factoring in any and all of the other factors such as range, time, etc that go into this spell, it should have a Spellcraft DC of 173 to cast. But then again, we aren't fully understanding the uses of the seeds and what they specifically do, so these are VERY subject to change.

Now, for the factors! For this, we need to look at first your stat block, and then we need to break it down into this and that. So lets take a gander.



- Okay. V and S, no different from default.

- Casting time is 2 minutes, which is twice the normal, so that gets a -2 to the cost (and from this point, I'm just going to list the thing, then state a number, according to the black and white rules.)

- Range 3 miles. Default is (using best seed) 12,000 ft, however this is a radius, so the full distance would be 6 miles, or 31,680 ft, roughly 3 times the size, for a strange enough +3. Refigured because of the actual seeds being used, the only seed having and AoE is Ward, which starts at 10 feet, so this is... +24.

- Time is 12 hours, due to seeds the standard is 20 hours, and the table doesn't give any discounts for this one, so +0.

- No save, well. That one is tricky, because epic spells absolutely have a save, it is 20 + appropriate casting stat. Increasing it to infinity... well. Each point of the save DC is another point of the casting DC, so this one is a wash. Either we fix this, or the casting cost is a Spellcraft check of INFINITY, which you simply aren't going to do.

- Spell resistance also needs fixed. The rules on this are very straight forward. "When combining two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, if even one seed is subject to spell resistance, the finished epic spell is subject to it as well." So again, either this absolutely has spell resistance, or the Spellcraft DC is infinity.

ALRIGHT! Now we need to break down the effects individually, and factor those in as well. Luckily, so far, we are only at a DC of 174, which isn't impossible, especially if you would check out the table on mitigating factors, but we will get back to that point later.

- First things first: the weaving of 6 spells into this thing. That effect simply doesn't exist. Not in the seeds, and not in the factors table. The best I can equate this to is actually using the WARD or Fortify seed, in which you can imbue individuals, and when combined with the other seeds, does have the range that you are wanting. Cool, great, love it. You want to put 6 effects in play, that is 6 uses of Ward or Fortify. Luckily, the way many sample epic spells are, you only need to pay the base cost of each seed once, regardless of how many of their effects we are using. Now, this is massively varied, because depending on what buffs you want to hand out, they not only need to be selected at the time of creating the spell (Note, not casting it!!!!) so this can range from adding nothing to the DC to adding... well, quite alot. I'm not wanting to split hairs over the targets here, so I won't, but this can range massively, and we haven't even got to the other sillier parts of the spell, so I'm going to leave this as a wash for now.

- +5 to Charisma, Dexterity, and Will. Easy peasy. Type isn't listed, so as an untyped bonus, each individual point increases the DC by +6, for a total of +90. (Fortify)

- -10 to Charisma, Dexterity, and Will. Also easy. Each -1 penalty is a DC of +4, so 30 of them comes out at +120 total. (Afflict)

- The booze. I would hope to assume that 20 CUBIC FEET of booze is enough to sate an entire party, even if it lasts 12 hours. I've been to raging college keggers. I've seen how much a few dozen people can drink, and it sure as hell is less than 20 cubic feet. So I'm not going to budge any numbers here. (Conjure)

- The come and prank people thing. If it is harmless, non-murdering or suiciding kinds of pranks? Yea, totally within the realm of Compel. Again, not splitting hairs on targets. (Compel)

- The Treants. So, I am looking to SUPER LOW BALL this one, just to kinda help prove the point. 10 HD Treants come in about CR 9. So, it states that initially, the seed only summons an outsider. If you want to get anything else, add +10, and that will get you any creature CR 2 or less. It then says +2 DC for every CR you increase the limit by. It then ALSO says for each additional creature summoned, DOUBLE THE DC! YES, THE ENTIRE DAMN THING! DOUBLE IT. THEN AGAIN, AND AGAIN, and I think you get the idea. So this ability, ALONE, is first added +10, then +14, THEN multiplying the entire cost of the spell by 16. If this spell started with a DC of 1, this effect alone made it 400. So this one gets a special little star added to it, because it's effect on the DC is going to be hilarious when we calculate everything at the end. (Summon)

- Compels all fey. Yea, we already talked about how much this needs incredibly fixed because of the no save, no SR. (Compel)

- Reading through, there ISN'T a seed that just grants a +5 divine bonus to attacks, but if I had to put it somewhere, I'm calling it Fortify. Its another +5, so that's another +10. (Fortify)

- Another +5, but this time luck. +10 DC. (Fortify)

- The kill bomb. Well, Slay will kill things up to 80 HD, so this needs no adjustments (except the elephant in the room of the save DC, which the creature ABSOLUTELY gets a Fort save). (Slay)

- More Compel. More... well, compulsion. (Compel)

- Casting low level spells as higher level spells. Well, as we discussed before, this is only really going to increase the DCs and maybe some durations? However, it is for ALL spells of the appropriate level, and for each of those, it should be a +1. So this is another "Could be +0, could be + infinity" ones. This is, however, strictly in the factor table, and I don't think any seed really comes in play here.

- Rebounding spells. This is actually the Reflect seed, and for each additional level of spells you wish to bounce, it increases the DC by 20. Now, there are 9 schools, so I'm totally willing to do some wiggle room, and it also only effects 15% of that 1 of 9 schools. So lets math. Base 27 gets you 1st level spells, 8 more levels is +160, for a total of 187. Divide by 9, then times 0.15, and I get... 3.116? So I can call this +4 and be happy. (Reflect)

- Illusion failing. Same song and dance. 187 / 9 x 0.25 = 5.194, so +6. (Reflect)

- Did we ever figure out what the DR thing was? Were you saying like true damage immunity? Help me out here. I'll leave this one alone for now, but it is also the Ward seed. (Ward)

- Fort saves. +4 DC. (Fortify)

And......... That's it! Alright, cool. I'm leaving out the percentage rolls, because this is already super silly enough, and I don't really know how to justify them with seeds beyond getting the HD of the creatures and adding them with the Summon seed. Alright, so all totaled, you are only using the Afflict, Compel, Conjure, Fortify, Reflect, Slay, Summon, and Ward seeds. They will total, to start, at DC 151. Then we add and subtract appropriate factors (then the multiply part, which is hands down going to be my favorite). So 151 -2 +24 +90 +120 +24 +10 +10 +4 +6 +4 will equal 441. It will take a Spellcraft DC of 441 to pull all of this off. But wait, there's more, because this was ONLY calculating for 1 Treant. If we summon all 5 of them, which multiplies the cost by x16, we end up with a whopping 7056.

So that's it, good fellow elf. All tallied, and not including the effects of this that are beyond absurd and completely breaking the rules of the game, this spell will require the caster to make a Spellcraft DC of 7056. If that number doesn't shake somebody, well then I've probably gone wrong with my entire life. But yea, this spell is nigh impossible to cast. Ever. Even with mitigating factors like bringing in high level casters to ritual cast it by sacrificing their own spell casting power, it would take roughly 400 9th level spell slots sacrificed to bring this down bellow a DC of about 300.

WOW... wth do I do? Eliminate all the effects and pretty much have a high level boring spell? I am willing to let go some of the sillier stuff, but I'm keeping the endless drinks, 1 Treant and implosion/kill effect.

[CopperElfCleric]

As the said canon suppliment noted above, the Gambol is meant to be a party, a debauchery of hedonism, magic and divine connection to all those who worship Erevan Ilesere. Those who happen upon the Gambol do so at their own risk. I don;t know what to do. I feel like my attempt is now broken. I cannot go to my DM with 7,000 + DC

My initial Dc was 165, and my DM told me to lower it. I cannot make this spell happen

[Buufreak]

The simplest answer? Think of it this way: one person a party doesn't make. All of this is so expensive because it combines just way too many things. If instead it was a handful of casters splitting up the work, it can all be accomplished far simpler. Persisted summon nature ally VIII. Create food and drink. A bard using inspire courage. All of the effects you have here are a spell somewhere, it is the combining them that makes it absurd. So don't combine them.

[CopperElfCleric]

The simplest answer? Think of it this way: one person a party doesn't make. All of this is so expensive because it combines just way too many things. If instead it was a handful of casters splitting up the work, it can all be accomplished far simpler. Persisted summon nature ally VIII. Create food and drink. A bard using inspire courage. All of the effects you have here are a spell somewhere, it is the combining them that makes it absurd. So don't combine them.

All the other PC's in our campaign have submitted spells and was granted by our DM. I am last and it looks like I am done. Uggh.

Wait... I may have saving grace...

Fury of the Fey; Epic level spell.

Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 80
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 120 ft.
Effect: Summoned creatures
Duration: 20 rounds (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This epic spell mimics the mirror image spell, causing half the casters HD in images to appear and randomly confuse the enemies. (I.E. 30 HD = 15 images). Each image is a exact duplicate of the caster and flanks the nearest opponent dealing 1d12 damage each round until stricken or dealt damage itself, in which case that image bursts into a furious Pixie or Quickling (players choice), with full abilities. The Pixies or Quicklings last until they are slain and cannot be compelled or forced to act out another command. This epic spell is the result of a pact between Erevan Ilesere and the Seelie and Unseelie court made during the wars of the Anti-Seldarine after Loth's fall to the Abyss.


The Fey Jesters Starbolts; Epic level spell

Conjuration [Teleportation]
Spellcraft DC: 56
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 1,000 feet plus 100 feet per HD
Target: Creature or object touched by bolt.
Duration: Instantaneous.
Saving Throw: Will save.
Spell Resistance: yes.

This epic spell mimics the magic missile spell, with the following exceptions; The caster unleashes a multitude of chaotic bolts of varying colors, shaped like asymmetrical star-bursts. These 10 starbolts equal to half the casters HD in damage, and upon impact are sent to another plane of existence, depending on the color of the starbolt. (Roll a 10 die to determine result.)

1. blue Arvandor
2. red nine hells
3. green Beast lands
4. yellow limbo
5. orange seven heavens
6. purple plane of shadow
7. silver positive plane
8. black negative plane
9. pink fey-wild
10. brown pandemonium


The Tricksters Wildzone; Epic level spell

Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 55
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 900 ft.
Target: Centered on caster
Duration: 10 rounds
Saving Throw: no
Spell Resistance: No

Once cast,it creates a disruption in magical forces similar to those found in a Wild Magic area that is centered on her. When used, she creates a Wild Magic zone in a 900 foot radius spread centered on her, that moves with her, and has an additional 5 foot radius spread for every character level she has. Within the Wildzone, any spell cast, or magic item used in the radius spread is automatically treated as if using a rod of wonder. (Use the rod of wonder table on PG. 199 of the PH.) The Wildzone is treated just as a Wild Magic area in accordance to magic weapons and armor, or spells cast from outside the area of effect. In addition, the caster may choose to re-roll a single save, attack, or damage roll made in the same round in which the spell was cast.

[CopperElfCleric]

Just called my DM with your accurate results for the Gambol. He tells me that if I make it a High Elven spell of Myriad that requires multiple casters I can make the Gambol happen at a lower cost. More like 500 DC on spellcraft check, which is insane.I need to get rid of a bunch of effects to make this happen.

[H_H_F_F]

Just called my DM with your accurate results for the Gambol. He tells me that if I make it a High Elven spell of Myriad that requires multiple casters I can make the Gambol happen at a lower cost. More like 500 DC on spellcraft check, which is insane.

If the full spell goes down to 500 by means agreed upon between you and your DM, just make it 2 or 3 treants instead of 5. That'll divide the dc by 8 or 4, which should be doable.

[CopperElfCleric]

If the full spell goes down to 500 by means agreed upon between you and your DM, just make it 2 or 3 treants instead of 5. That'll divide the dc by 8 or 4, which should be doable.

Too much... too high... What if I get rid of the implosion/kill effect, scrap the treants and replaced them with smaller, simpler effects?

[CopperElfCleric]

I want to be around 100 Spellcraft DC

[CopperElfCleric]

Erevan Ilesere himself couldn't cast this spell without help with a DC of 7,000 +

[CopperElfCleric]

New changes made... what is your calculations now?

[CopperElfCleric]

Added a 5 minute casting time

[redking]

Buufreak,

The best primary seed for this effect is the mythal seed, which can be found in Lost Empires of Faerun. I can't reproduce the text for the mythal seed because fair use is not acknowledged on this website. That said, if you do a google search you can get the information yourself.

The abilities here can be defined as prevalent and vanguard spells or abilities. The OP mentioned the mythal seed. Using it would be useful.

Since the mythal is a temporary one, an ad hoc mitigating factor (say ad hoc temporary mythal -50 DC) could be applied.

[CopperElfCleric]

Buufreak,

The best primary seed for this effect is the mythal seed, which can be found in Lost Empires of Faerun. I can't reproduce the text for the mythal seed because fair use is not acknowledged on this website. That said, if you do a google search you can get the information yourself.

The abilities here can be defined as prevalent and vanguard spells or abilities. The OP mentioned the mythal seed. Using it would be useful.

Since the mythal is a temporary one, an ad hoc mitigating factor (say ad hoc temporary mythal -50 DC) could be applied.

Yes!!. Been wanting that book for a very longtime. It basically describes Elven high magic the way ELH does regular epic spells

[CopperElfCleric]

{Scrubbed}

[redking]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

This prestige won't help you with the mechanics of the spell, merely help you reduce the costs somewhat. In relation to the final Spellcraft DC, it won't help you at all.

I think you are better off simply handwaving this as divine intervention by the deity rather than trying to shoehorn it into an epic spell.

[CopperElfCleric]

This prestige won't help you with the mechanics of the spell, merely help you reduce the costs somewhat. In relation to the final Spellcraft DC, it won't help you at all.

I think you are better off simply handwaving this as divine intervention by the deity rather than trying to shoehorn it into an epic spell.

I may have to, but I don't want to. Being that it's a once a month spell, it just may be the best way of going about it.

[redking]

I may have to, but I don't want to. Being that it's a once a month spell, it just may be the best way of going about it.

Actually, incantations fit better than epic spells for this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations).

Any qualified follower of Erevan Ilesere could use an incantation (see the link) to initiate the Midnight Gambol without onerous Spellcraft checks or research costs.

As incantations go it is more powerful that the given examples, but there is no limit. Especially if the power for the Gambol is provided by Erevan Ilesere himself.

[CopperElfCleric]

Actually, incantations fit better than epic spells for this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations).

Any qualified follower of Erevan Ilesere could use an incantation (see the link) to initiate the Midnight Gambol without onerous Spellcraft checks or research costs.

As incantations go it is more powerful that the given examples, but there is no limit. Especially if the power for the Gambol is provided by Erevan Ilesere himself.
That may actually work

[CopperElfCleric]

But shouldn't even a divine caster give up something for such a high level spell.?

[redking]

But shouldn't even a divine caster give up something for such a high level spell.?

Well, the other incantations have an XP cost. Just have everyone caught in the Gambol pay 100 XP.

[CopperElfCleric]

Well, the other incantations have an XP cost. Just have everyone caught in the Gambol pay 100 XP.

That seems low for a epic spell. I never intended for it to be this way, but it seems most plausible.

[CopperElfCleric]

Why tax the folks entrapped in the gambol? The tax should be on the Gambol. Or the caster.

[redking]

Why tax the folks entrapped in the gambol? The tax should be on the Gambol. Or the caster.

Any way you like is fine. The point is to make the Gambol happen. As an epic spell there is no way to meet the Spellcraft DC, even if Erevan Ilesere is willing to pay the spell creation costs himself. An incantation is more lenient, literally whatever you want, and the source of power is more opaque and could be from Erevan Ilesere himself.

Just choose a cost for the incantation ritual, whatever that is, place a limitation (Midnight Gambol authorized by Erevan Ilesere), and have at it.

[CopperElfCleric]

Any way you like is fine. The point is to make the Gambol happen. As an epic spell there is no way to meet the Spellcraft DC, even if Erevan Ilesere is willing to pay the spell creation costs himself. An incantation is more lenient, literally whatever you want, and the source of power is more opaque and could be from Erevan Ilesere himself.

Just choose a cost for the incantation ritual, whatever that is, place a limitation (Midnight Gambol authorized by Erevan Ilesere), and have at it.

Maybe 25,000 worth of gp in precious stolen gems, and a spell DC of 50. (Must be stolen gems).