Sacred Outlaw feat

[CopperElfCleric]

So you can be a 1st level rogue/ 19th level cleric and sneak attack as a 20th level rogue. Or you can be a 1st level Cleric/ 19th level rogue and destroy undead as a 20th level cleric. Very powerful feat indeed. The mighty things you can do with this.

[Rebel7284]

So you can be a 1st level rogue/ 19th level cleric and sneak attack as a 20th level rogue. Or you can be a 1st level Cleric/ 19th level rogue and destroy undead as a 20th level cleric. Very powerful feat indeed. The mighty things you can do with this.

First of all:


Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6


Unless you can use items to qualify (debatable), you will need more than one level of Rogue.


You give up the opportunity cost of taking prestige classes. Prestige classes will often offer better benefits than this feat. With that said if you want a divine trickster type of character, you could do a lot worse than Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Cloistered Cleric 18

Taking 19 levels of Rogue is arguably worse than taking 18 levels of Cleric since Rogue is a pretty weak class by itself. Adding one more conditional ability to a Rogue won't save it. With that said, at higher levels, when you can optimize Turn/Rebuke by buying up all the dozens of items that improve it, it you would make a pretty good undead killer which is a funny thing for a Rogue to do, but again, you give up all the other abilities you could have gotten by actually taking a prestige class.

[MinimanMidget]

Didn't you make this exact post about a year ago?

[Jervis]

First of all:


Unless you can use items to qualify (debatable), you will need more than one level of Rogue.


You give up the opportunity cost of taking prestige classes. Prestige classes will often offer better benefits than this feat. With that said if you want a divine trickster type of character, you could do a lot worse than Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Cloistered Cleric 18

Taking 19 levels of Rogue is arguably worse than taking 18 levels of Cleric since Rogue is a pretty weak class by itself. Adding one more conditional ability to a Rogue won't save it. With that said, at higher levels, when you can optimize Turn/Rebuke by buying up all the dozens of items that improve it, it you would make a pretty good undead killer which is a funny thing for a Rogue to do, but again, you give up all the other abilities you could have gotten by actually taking a prestige class.

Worth mentioning that some feats can add sneak attack, a ToB one gives a stance which can give sneak attack. So depending on when you take the dip it can work, if you’re willing to spend feats.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So you can be a 1st level rogue/ 19th level cleric and sneak attack as a 20th level rogue.
You'll probably want to take 3 rogue levels for the Penetrating Strike ACF if you're going there or it's not going to work against a lot of enemies.
Though it's not really worth the investment since you could just pick up a greatsword, cast a few buffs and do pretty much the same damage without all the hoops to jump or lost casting.

I mean it's fine if you want to play a rogue/cleric, but if you just want melee damage it wouldn't be my first choice.


Or you can be a 1st level Cleric/ 19th level rogue and destroy undead as a 20th level cleric. Very powerful feat indeed. The mighty things you can do with this.

"Destroy undead as a 20th level cleric" isn't particularly impressive at level 20 unless you invest in it. Without that you can't even destroy most enemies over CR 10-11 or so.
If you're spending gold on it you can, but it's going to be a small chunk of your WBL (roughly 10-15% i'd guess) to keep it relevant as you level.

So it's only really worth it if you're either in an undead heavy campaign or using it for commanding instead of destroying. That one does get very powerful.
I just don't see why you'd want to combine it with sneak attack instead of an actual cleric PrC.

[JNAProductions]

Didn't you make this exact post about a year ago?

Was gonna say that. Not sure anything new was added.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Didn't you make this exact post about a year ago?

Was gonna say that. Not sure anything new was added.It's not like the OP can post in the old thread without getting a necro warning. If the rules on this site put the kibosh on replying to old threads, they (and we) will need to just put up with threads like this.

[Maat Mons]

Since Sacred Outlaw is 3.5 Paizo content, there's another piece of 3.5 Paizo content I'd like to mention. Back in 2008, before the release of the Pathfinder RPG system, Paizo published a campaign setting book for 3.5 called Pathfinder Chronicles. It contains an ACF for Cleric that gives full base attack bonus and d10 hit dice, in exchange for giving up both domains.

Obviously, this is redundant with DMM: Persist Divine Power. But for a low-op game where DMM: Persist is banned, it could still be viable. And if you're locking yourself out of prestige classes anyway with Sacred Outlaw, maybe bumping up the base class' numbers would be beneficial.

[Jervis]

Since Sacred Outlaw is 3.5 Paizo content, there's another piece of 3.5 Paizo content I'd like to mention. Back in 2008, before the release of the Pathfinder RPG system, Paizo published a campaign setting book for 3.5 called Pathfinder Chronicles. It contains an ACF for Cleric that gives full base attack bonus and d10 hit dice, in exchange for giving up both domains.

Obviously, this is redundant with DMM: Persist Divine Power. But for a low-op game where DMM: Persist is banned, it could still be viable. And if you're locking yourself out of prestige classes anyway with Sacred Outlaw, maybe bumping up the base class' numbers would be beneficial.

THATS WHERE THATS FROM? I’ve been looking for it for forever. I knew it existed but I couldn’t find it anywhere.

[Anthrowhale]

This is minor, but you can bounce off of Shadowbane Stalker to hit 2d6 sneak attack. Thus, Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker 3/CC 12, picking up Sacred Outlaw at 9th level is a natural build yielding 10d6 sneak attack.

The penetrating strike ACF is a universal sneak attack immunity bypass, but spellcasters have tools like persistent Grave/Golem/Vine Strike or Greater Truedeath/Demolition crystals from which you can cobble together something almost as good. You also want to be able to reliably trigger SA damage via something like the Double Team feat.

A few other minor points:
The classic Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 using persistent Hunter's Eye has more (13d6) sneak attack at the cost of one additional feat.
An Archivist can of course use (persistent) Hunter's Eye in a straightforward approach providing zero feat access to less sneak attack (6d6).
The Craven feat is worth another ~6d6 sneak attack.
Polymorph into a Kelvezu grants 8d6 sneak attack.

[nedz]

Silverbrow Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X grabbing Dragonfire Strike also works - if you don't want to be an LG Rogue.
This works with any Dragonblooded race.

Halfling Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X grabbing the Halfling Rogue ACF gets you 2d6 sneak with missiles (at the cost of 0d6 melee)

There are other methods but those require more investment.

[Ramza00]

So you can be a 1st level rogue/ 19th level cleric and sneak attack as a 20th level rogue. Or you can be a 1st level Cleric/ 19th level rogue and destroy undead as a 20th level cleric. Very powerful feat indeed. The mighty things you can do with this.

It is one of those lost builds of the archives, but I wish to see this Kali, becoming death, a twf blender that Logic Ninja did that was mostly cleric based. Stuff with this but also stacking it with the Knowledge Devotion feat, and the War Domain Reserve Feat.

Thus with those two feats and Lore of the Gods 2nd level spell, and 1 rank in the adjacent knowledges you get +10 to +15 to every attack whenever you get 9th level spells. But there were other tricks as well that I do not recall and I am curious about but it was lost like tears in the rain.

Oh yeah also add Craven to boost each attack by HD so a 20th level characters gets 20 more damage, while a 10th level character gets +10. There are several ways to get that sneak attack off easily like Invisibility, Neraph Charge plus Pounce, Neraph Throw feat, etc.


THATS WHERE THATS FROM? I’ve been looking for it for forever. I knew it existed but I couldn’t find it anywhere.

Yes it is called “Golarion Cleric” and this ACF gives the “Holy Warrior” ability below.

Holy Warrior (Ex): A cleric with this ability is proficient with her deity’s favored weapon. In addition, her base attack bonus as a cleric equals her cleric level, and her cleric Hit Die becomes a d10.

The cost which is listed in a different line not quoted is losing two domains.

[Anthrowhale]

Silverbrow Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X grabbing Dragonfire Strike also works - if you don't want to be an LG Rogue.
This works with any Dragonblooded race.

Halfling Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X grabbing the Halfling Rogue ACF gets you 2d6 sneak with missiles (at the cost of 0d6 melee)


These are both nice. The Halfling Rogue one in particular avoids a feat tax and there are subraces of halfling providing a bonus feat, darkvision, etc... as desired.

[CopperElfCleric]

Rogues cannot hurt undead if they are under 20th level really, so being a 1st level Cleric 19th level rogue gives you all you need to do so

[Maat Mons]

If you're at least 3rd-level in Rogue, you can have the Penetrating Strikes ACF (Dungeonscape, p13). This lets you deal half of your normal Sneak Attack damage to undead, as long as you can flank them. It doesn't work with other means of triggering Sneak Attack, for some reason.

If you've got enough gp to throw around, 10,000 gp gets you a Truedeath Crystal (Magic Item Compendium, p66) lets you completely bypass the immunity to Sneak Attack that undead normally have.

On a smaller budget, a Wand of Gravestrike (Spell Compendium, p107) can also cover you. Though you have to be able to make the Use Magic Device checks. Or you could be a cleric.

Anyway, being a Rogue trying to fight undead is a problem, but not an insurmountable one.

[Elves]

Silverbrow Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X grabbing Dragonfire Strike also works - if you don't want to be an LG Rogue.
This works with any Dragonblooded race.

Halfling Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X grabbing the Halfling Rogue ACF gets you 2d6 sneak with missiles (at the cost of 0d6 melee)

There are other methods but those require more investment.

Dragonfire Strike doesn't work, the extra d6 is a proc when you choose to use the feat -- it's not an inherent part of your SA feature.

Ranged sneak attack doesn't work either. It's a separate class feature that "does not replace the standard rogue's sneak attack ability". So a 1st level halfling rogue still has the sneak attack +1d6 class feature. They just have a separate class feature that modifies the SA damage in practice based on whether it's used in range or melee.

[Anthrowhale]

Ranged sneak attack doesn't work either. It's a separate class feature that "does not replace the standard rogue's sneak attack ability". So a 1st level halfling rogue still has the sneak attack +1d6 class feature. They just have a separate class feature that modifies the SA damage in practice based on whether it's used in range or melee.

But, is that relevant? The requirement could be intrepreted as the 3rd level rogue feature or as the ability to generate 2d6 of sneak attack damage. Distinguishing between these two things seems like hair-splitting with unnatural consequences like "Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 1 does not have sneak attack 2d6".

[Elves]

But, is that relevant? The requirement could be intrepreted as the 3rd level rogue feature or as the ability to generate 2d6 of sneak attack damage. Distinguishing between these two things seems like hair-splitting with unnatural consequences like "Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 1 does not have sneak attack 2d6".
Unseen seer directly advances your sneak attack/skirmish class feature. Ranged sneak attack is a separate (ex) class feature that modifies it under certain circumstances.

If I have sneak attack 1d6 and gain a class feature that says "Shadow Ambush (Ex): Your sneak attack damage is increased by 1d6 while you're in darkness, but decreased by 1d6 while you're in bright light", would that give me sneak attack 2d6? I'd say probably not, since my sneak attack feature is still 1d6.

[Anthrowhale]

Unseen seer directly advances your sneak attack/skirmish class feature.

Unseen Seer provides a separate class feature which says:

Damage Bonus: ... the extra damage you deal with your sneak attack... ability increases by 1d6.


Ranged sneak attack is a separate (ex) class feature that modifies it under certain circumstances.

Agreed.


If I have sneak attack 1d6 and gain a class feature that says "Shadow Ambush (Ex): Your sneak attack damage is increased by 1d6 while you're in darkness, but decreased by 1d6 while you're in bright light", would that give me sneak attack 2d6? I'd say probably not, since my sneak attack feature is still 1d6.
I'd say 'yes'. The hair-splitting between "you can do 2d6 sneak attack damage" and "you have a class feature called "sneak attack 2d6" is unnatural, as per your instinct with Unseen Seer.

[Elves]

In one case you have sneak attack +2d6. In the other case you have sneak attack +1d6, and an ability that situationally modifies the damage. But your actual sneak attack ability still is +1d6. That's not hairsplitting, it's common sense.

[Anthrowhale]

In one case you have sneak attack +2d6. In the other case you have sneak attack +1d6, and an ability that situationally modifies the damage. But your actual sneak attack ability still is +1d6. That's not hairsplitting, it's common sense.
Ah, apologies, I'm genuinely confused. There are 3 cases under discussion: Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 1, Rogue 3, and Halfling Rogue 1. Are you comparing Rogue 3 & Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 1 or Rogue 3 & Halfling Rogue 1? ... or is it Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 1 & Halfling Rogue 1?

[CopperElfCleric]

If you're a Rogue 1/ Cleric 19 or a Cleric 1/ Rogue 19 with this feat what does it matter if you can SA a undead? Your turn/ destroy undead ability should handle that. Either way you turn/ destroy undead as a 20th level cleric

[Anthrowhale]

If you're a Rogue 1/ Cleric 19 or a Cleric 1/ Rogue 19 with this feat what does it matter if you can SA a undead? Your turn/ destroy undead ability should handle that. Either way you turn/ destroy undead as a 20th level cleric
Well, you could use Quicken Turning to both turn and stab in the same round.

[Maat Mons]

Do you actually find Turn Undead to be effective for turning undead at high levels? I admit, I haven't tried turning in a high-level game. But looking at the CR-19 undead, Corpse Gatherer, Famine Spirit, and Ragewind, they all have 30+ hit dice. Without investment, a 20th-level character can't turn undead with more than 24 hit dice.

I know there are ways to increase this substantially, but how heavily are you willing to invest in a mechanic that only helps you against creatures of one specific type? Sneak Attack is also more limited than I'd like. Five out of the fifteen standard creature types give immunity to it. And there are numerous other effects that give immunity. But even then, it seems less niche than specializing in fighting undead. Plus, the investment needed to broaden out Sneak Attack looks easier than the investment needed to turn higher-CR undead. Many Sneak Attack builds will already have Rogue 3, in which case Penetrating Strikes is easy to pick up. And most Rogue builds already invest in Use Magic Device, which eventually lets you handle Constructs, Plants, and Undead with 1st-level wands.

Don't get me wrong, I think Turn Undead can be good with some investment. But I think I'd rather that investment take the form of feats and abilities powered by expending Turn Undead uses. Plenty of those are useful against a wide range of enemies. So I feel better about putting resources into them than I do into undead-specific tactics.

[CopperElfCleric]

Do you actually find Turn Undead to be effective for turning undead at high levels? I admit, I haven't tried turning in a high-level game. But looking at the CR-19 undead, Corpse Gatherer, Famine Spirit, and Ragewind, they all have 30+ hit dice. Without investment, a 20th-level character can't turn undead with more than 24 hit dice.

I know there are ways to increase this substantially, but how heavily are you willing to invest in a mechanic that only helps you against creatures of one specific type? Sneak Attack is also more limited than I'd like. Five out of the fifteen standard creature types give immunity to it. And there are numerous other effects that give immunity. But even then, it seems less niche than specializing in fighting undead. Plus, the investment needed to broaden out Sneak Attack looks easier than the investment needed to turn higher-CR undead. Many Sneak Attack builds will already have Rogue 3, in which case Penetrating Strikes is easy to pick up. And most Rogue builds already invest in Use Magic Device, which eventually lets you handle Constructs, Plants, and Undead with 1st-level wands.

Don't get me wrong, I think Turn Undead can be good with some investment. But I think I'd rather that investment take the form of feats and abilities powered by expending Turn Undead uses. Plenty of those are useful against a wide range of enemies. So I feel better about putting resources into them than I do into undead-specific tactics.

It's the same concept as a rangers favored enemy. You do invest... a lot. As a divine caster you don't have the damage casting ability of a mage, nor the melee of a warrior. Do you want to invest in healing, and just be that guy that is expected to heal everyone? As a rule, my elven cleric only carries 5 healing spells. The rest I use to buff or de-buff as I see fit. Then I focus on my destroy undead ability as that is the biggest function of any cleric besides healing. My PC is NOT a medic. Not even close. My PC is a thief and divine caster of Ervan Ilesere. Undead are everywhere in forgotten realms, so why not?

[Maat Mons]

There are paths a Cleric can take other than investing in healing and investing in turning.

Ranger is my go-to example of overspecialization. But if you're finding undead common enough to warrant some specialization, I guess that's fine then.

[CopperElfCleric]

There are paths a Cleric can take other than investing in healing and investing in turning.

Ranger is my go-to example of overspecialization. But if you're finding undead common enough to warrant some specialization, I guess that's fine then.

Not what I was saying. Just saying a rogue 1/ cleric 19 can SA like a 20th level rogue which is powerful for any cleric. And a Cleric 1/ rogue 19 can Destroy undead as a 20th level cleric, which is very powerful for any rogue.

[redking]

Not what I was saying. Just saying a rogue 1/ cleric 19 can SA like a 20th level rogue which is powerful for any cleric. And a Cleric 1/ rogue 19 can Destroy undead as a 20th level cleric, which is very powerful for any rogue.

The only reason I could see not to take the feat is that you can't take any prestige classes if you want to make full use of it.

[CopperElfCleric]

True. But most PC's want the bang effect. Hence, prestige classes.

[Anthrowhale]

Not what I was saying. Just saying a rogue 1/ cleric 19 can SA like a 20th level rogue which is powerful for any cleric. And a Cleric 1/ rogue 19 can Destroy undead as a 20th level cleric, which is very powerful for any rogue.

For the cleric, the loss of spell advancement may not be worthwhile, depending on role.

Separately, cleric is pretty much the best base class for class-mixing feats and ACFs. The selection is wide enough that the best way to make a bard with sneak attack is Rogue 1 / Bard 1 / Cloistered Cleric [Spontaneous Spell domain] 18 with Divine Inspiration & Sacred Outlaw. Similarly, a cleric can be Fighter (Anyspell[Heroics] + Triadspell + Knowledge Devotion + DMM[Persistent] Divine Power), a Paladin (Champion ACF), or a Wizard (Arcane Disciple Variant).

[CopperElfCleric]

For the cleric, the loss of spell advancement may not be worthwhile, depending on role.

Separately, cleric is pretty much the best base class for class-mixing feats and ACFs. The selection is wide enough that the best way to make a bard with sneak attack is Rogue 1 / Bard 1 / Cloistered Cleric [Spontaneous Spell domain] 18 with Divine Inspiration & Sacred Outlaw. Similarly, a cleric can be Fighter (Anyspell[Heroics] + Triadspell + Knowledge Devotion + DMM[Persistent] Divine Power), a Paladin (Champion ACF), or a Wizard (Arcane Disciple Variant).

My initial post was a cleric/ rogue combo. That's it. No PrC's or whatever. It is the best feat for any rogue who wants to slay undead, and any cleric who wants to SA anyone anyhow at anytime.

[JNAProductions]

My initial post was a cleric/ rogue combo. That's it. No PrC's or whatever. It is the best feat for any rogue who wants to slay undead, and any cleric who wants to SA anyone anyhow at anytime.

For a Rogue who wants to slay undead? I don't think so. Turn Undead at level 20 isn't very useful unless you put a lot of resources towards optimizing it, which could be better spent (by a Rogue, at least) getting ways to sneak attack undead or similar.

For a Cleric who wants to sneak attack? Sure-but a Cleric has better options for just dealing damage, or taking foes out of a fight in other ways.

[redking]

Yes it is called “Golarion Cleric” and this ACF gives the “Holy Warrior” ability below.

Holy Warrior (Ex): A cleric with this ability is proficient with her deity’s favored weapon. In addition, her base attack bonus as a cleric equals her cleric level, and her cleric Hit Die becomes a d10.

The cost which is listed in a different line not quoted is losing two domains.

Golarion Cleric, in conjunction with sacred outlaw, would seem to be the only way to get a full BAB sneak attacker.

[loky1109]

Golarion Cleric, in conjunction with sacred outlaw, would seem to be the only way to get a full BAB sneak attacker.

Sneak attack fighter, Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw.

[Jervis]

Golarion Cleric, in conjunction with sacred outlaw, would seem to be the only way to get a full BAB sneak attacker.

That actually sounds fun. Meeting the 2d6 sneak attack sounds not fun though. I know there’s a stance that gives 1d6 but the other d6 probably needs a dip into sneak attack fighter or something

[loky1109]

That actually sounds fun. Meeting the 2d6 sneak attack sounds not fun though. I know there’s a stance that gives 1d6 but the other d6 probably needs a dip into sneak attack fighter or something

Assassin's stance gives 2d6.

[KoDT69]

Rogue that slays undead? My very limited knowledge outside core still lets me know this one.

Start Rogue with the Penetrating Strike ACF.
Take some Master Thrower levels selecting Sneaky Shot as one of the "tricks".
Proceed to beat pretty much any non to minimally intelligent undead at the "Sleight of Hand vs Spot check" allowing Sneak Attack to be added to every thrown weapon attack.
Rapid Shot, Boots of Speed, Two Weapon Fighting...
Truedeath Weapon Augmentation Crystal if your table uses those.

I actually built a 20th level Halfling Rogue Master Thrower around a similar thought process. Even at a 25 point buy and mostly Core, he turned out super effective even against light to medium damage reduction!

[Zarvistic]

It's probably not very good, but just for fun was looking how much you can stack using rogue levels and came up with this. With 5 monk levels and some acfs/variants/subs (holy monk, halfling monk, sidewinder monk) you are able to make use of all these stacking feats with the rest of your levels being rogue:
- Ascetic rogue
- Sacred outlaw
- Swift ambusher

It would give progression in unarmed strike damage, sneak attack, skirmish and turn undead.